--- title: "Stuttering Without Apology" episode: 179 date: 2025-10-17 guest: "James Burden" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/179-stuttering-without-apology audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-179/audio.mp3 --- # Stuttering Without Apology Joanne Lockwood is joined by speech language pathologist James Burden, founder of Stuttering Blueprint, for a conversation that challenges the stigma attached to disfluent speech. Together they explore how stuttering becomes a barrier not because of the sounds themselves, but because of the shame, myths, and social reactions that teach people to hide, avoid, and self-censor. James explains how expectations of “perfect” speech can limit professional aspirations—interviews, leadership moments, and everyday workplace communication—and why supportive listening matters. He shares practical guidance for colleagues and listeners: don’t interrupt or finish sentences, stay present, and treat stuttering as an acceptable way of speaking rather than a problem to be fixed. The episode also covers evidence-informed approaches used in therapy and coaching, including prolonged speech methods (such as Camperdown) alongside acceptance and commitment therapy, focusing on reducing fear and self-judgement while building real-world speaking practice. Joanne reflects on her own experiences of public speaking anxiety and learning to trust herself, reinforcing the message that inclusion means making space for real voices, not only polished ones. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Travelling with Spiritual Purpose - 04:10 — Journey into Speech Pathology - 09:17 — Overcoming Stuttering Myths - 10:43 — Stuttering: A Neurodivergence Debate - 15:20 — Understanding and Supporting Stuttering - 18:51 — Discuss Stuttering Openly - 22:20 — Melt the Stuttering Iceberg - 25:03 — Stigma and Struggles of Stuttering - 29:22 — Flow Training for Speech - 32:04 — Speech Confidence Through Gradual Practice - 35:00 — Speech Fluency and Filler Words - 39:46 — Stuttering and Lingering Trauma - 41:15 — Speech Perfectionists Exist? - 46:18 — Overcoming Self-Doubt for Growth - 47:46 — Trusting Spontaneity on Stage - 51:09 — Finding Yourself in Photos - 56:20 — Inclusion Bites: Join Us ## Key takeaways - Why stuttering is best understood as a neurodivergence present across all cultures, not as a disorder or deficit. - The psychological effects of shame, self-judgement, and internalised stigma on speech and personal confidence. - The role societal expectations and early experiences play in shaping attitudes and avoidance behaviours around stuttering. - Practical, evidence-based techniques such as the prolonged speech method, and the significance of practising self-acceptance alongside fluency strategies. - The importance of the “stuttering iceberg” model, illuminating the hidden emotional and cognitive aspects beneath visible speech behaviours. - Best practices for listeners and conversational partners—how to create supportive environments and respond to stuttering with patience and authenticity. - Action steps to shift the narrative from striving for perfection to valuing authentic self-expression, regardless of fluency. ## FAQs ### What is stuttering and how is it viewed in society? Stuttering, also known as stammering (particularly in the UK), is a speech difference where the natural flow of speech is disrupted by involuntary repetitions, prolongations, or blocks. The podcast emphasises that stuttering is not a sign of lower intelligence or a disease, but a natural neurodivergence affecting around 1% of the global population. Social stigma and shame often accompany stuttering due to misconceptions and negative judgement, but the episode advocates viewing it as a valid way of speaking rather than a defect. ### Are stuttering and stammering the same thing? Yes. The terms are used interchangeably, with ‘stammer’ being more common in UK English and ‘stutter’ in North American English. Both describe the same speech phenomenon. ### What causes stuttering? The root cause of stuttering remains unknown, despite significant research. Contemporary thought, as discussed in the episode, leans towards stuttering being a form of neurodivergence rather than the product of trauma or developmental deficits. It appears in every culture at roughly the same rate and is slightly more common among men than women, which might be related to social pressures and reporting differences. ### How can stuttering affect someone's social and professional life? Stuttering can lead to self-consciousness, avoidance of public speaking, and withdrawal from important opportunities such as job interviews or critical conversations. This is driven not only by external judgement but also by internalised shame and self-criticism, fostering a sense of ‘brokenness’ and exclusion. Challenging these beliefs and myths is a key part of reclaiming confidence for those who stutter. ### What should I do when someone stutters in conversation? The most supportive action is to listen patiently and refrain from interrupting or finishing their sentences. The episode stresses the importance of treating stuttering as a valid speech difference and maintaining genuine attention without drawing undue focus on the stutter itself. The underlying message is to accept and normalise stuttering as part of human diversity. ### Can stuttering be reduced, and if so, how? Yes, techniques exist to help individuals who wish to speak more fluently. The prolonged speech method and the Camperdown Programme, both referenced in the episode, are evidence-based approaches involving slow, connected, and deliberate speech to build muscle memory and confidence in fluent speaking. These methods are most successful when combined with acceptance and mindset work that helps individuals see themselves as ‘enough’ before striving for fluency. ## Transcript James Burden: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 179 with the title Stuttering Without Apology. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome James Burden. James is a speech language pathologist and the founder of Stuttering Blueprint, empowering professionals who stutter to lead with confidence and connect without compromise. And when I asked James to describe his superpower, he said it is creating safe spaces where stuttering becomes strength, not silence. Hello, James, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne, thank you so much for having me. I understand from where we were chatting just now it's early o' clock for you because you're based Pacific time on the US continent, aren't you? Yes, that's right. So James Burden: I'm from Vancouver BC originally and I still live there. That's my home base. But right now I am living in Mexico for the last couple months, on my way to Peru soon. So I love doing what I do and I also love doing it while travelling and seeing the world because it really brings some depth to my, my service and I like to go to places that have a lot of sort of spiritual, interesting things to do. So I. I got to go and do different ceremonies with different indigenous peoples all over the world, which is not something to do with my stuttering programme, but is very much to do with what I find valuable. Wow, that sounds fascinating. I can't wait to get to Joanne Lockwood: that. One of my claim to fames is I've been to Mexico by mistake and you might wonder how one could go to Mexico by mistake. Well, it's quite easy when you're driving down the aisle in California and you're not paying attention and then suddenly there's a sign that says last US Exit and it disappears behind you. The next Sign you see is welcome to Mexico. It's like that wasn't the plan. So it took like 30 seconds to get into Mexico and it took about three hours to get back out again through border control. So that's my claim to fame Mexico by mistake. Luckily we happened to have the passports in the car. So you were there for all James Burden: three hours? Yeah, you just end up queuing up out of Joanne Lockwood: Tijuana to try and come back in. It's like, yeah, I guess it was the spring breakers or the college students were all out in force trying to queue back because it was a whole roll of us plated cars trying to get back in. So, yeah, we were, yeah, we were kind of okay. But yeah, we're a bit worried for a bit because we were lucky to have our passports. Just happened to have them in the glove compartment, the car. So we were lucky. But yeah, could have been fun. Yeah. So that's my claim to fame Mexico by mistake. James, we were chatting again in the green room before we went live. Around stuttering and your masterclass in your programme, what triggered you to focus on stuttering and speech in the way you have? Well, my focus on James Burden: stuttering speech came just from an interest in speech and language, from learning Spanish years ago and finding it fascinating the similarities between Spanish and English, the words that are similar. So I got interested in linguistics. I already had a psychology degree and then the, the idea of speech pathology came up and I'm like, wow, that's a great combination of both. So I put all the effort into getting into grad school, which wasn't easy, still isn't easy to become a speech language pathologist. It's very competitive, but I managed to get in. And then during grad school at one of my practicums, I started, I went and did a practicum at Columbia Speech and Language Services in Vancouver and they were doing a 10 day intensive stuttering workshop. And this is the first time I had come across people who stuttered in a professional setting. And when I met everybody, they all came in, they had quite intense stutters and I, I very quickly got used to hearing that, so it wasn't quite so scary or different. I, I didn't feel as uncomfortable as I think a lot of people feel when they hear it. And then over those 10 days, these 10 people went from stuttering intensely to almost completely fluent. And some were completely fluent. It was, it was an incredible transformation and I was, I was impressed by this. I decided this, this is something I wanted to do in so much in speech Pathology is, you know, making little ripples and, and hoping those turn into big waves later. But this was a massive change in a short period of time and I, I found it very satisfying. However, there's a little bit more to this story when it comes to working just on fluency. But I'll, I'll circle back around to that in a minute because it's important for inclusion. But for this story, I see these people have this massive transformation. I changed my graduate paper, graduating paper topic so that I could follow this up. And I was very lucky in that one of my professors was a clinical professor and a speech language pathologist who specialised in stuttering. And so she took me under her wing after graduation. She started giving me clients for stuttering from her overflow. She mentored me. I picked up a couple other mentors along the way in those first few years. So I got to do in a one on one setting what I'd seen done in this intensive setting. I also discovered this programme called Camperdown, which is from Australia and it's using the same method, the prolonged speech method as well we used in the intensive programme. But now it could be done in a once a week setting and send clients home with practise. And then it also transferred very well when the time came to doing it via zoom. So very powerful method, making big changes. As I started to see those changes, I started to feel very comfortable, very good at this. I'm like good at helping people become fluent. I'm very comfortable around people who are stuttering. And one of the most interesting parts was almost like a therapist effect or a placebo effect that would be like when people came in and even when they had just started to begin to work with me, they started to relax right away. And I think that came from being in a place where stuttering is okay. Being in a place where stuttering is accepted, we're accepting it. At the same time, we're trying to make it easier to speak. Speak. And that's always been kind of. My attitude is let's make it easier to speak rather than let's fix you, let's make sure you don't stutter so that you'll be okay. Because I don't believe that stuttering makes someone not okay. So removing the shame and Joanne Lockwood: the stigma and the awkwardness, taking away the pressure to be perfect. Exactly. And what is perfect James Burden: anyway is a little bit of stuttering here and there. I mean, we all do it sometimes. The difference between someone who stutters every once in a while and someone who Stutters a little bit more is that if that stuttering starts to affect their mindset, like, oh my God, there's something wrong with me, I, I don't speak right. And they're getting messages from well meaning family, maybe even well meaning teachers or not so well meaning peers, you know, in school getting teased or bullied. They're getting the message over and over that stuttering is not an acceptable way to speak. And once that takes root, it can really blossom into a not so pleasant plant that just affects the way they interact with the world. And so we're trying not to, trying not to stutter. And in avoiding it, in avoiding the stutter we start, people start to avoid important speaking situations, making, not putting themselves out there. Maybe on a professional level, it might be job interviews or it might be even applying for certain types of jobs because if I can't speak, I can't do that job. I could never be a lawyer because they have to speak. I could never be a, a politician or whatever it is. And yet we know that's not true because in the US Joe Biden, who was the most powerful men in on the planet for a number of years, was a person who stuttered or is a person who stutters. So there's a lot of myths that get in the way. That is a big part of my masterclass that I will share the link with you later. How to break those myths. But also in the masterclasses, how to speak more fluently from a place of I'm already enough. I'm just trying to work on my speech, not I need to work on my speech in order to be enough. There's an important fine distinction there. Is there a root Joanne Lockwood: cause? Is it childhood trauma? Is it just a developmental difference? Is there something that triggers your language development, if you like, or your speech development that can make you more susceptible to developing a stutter or stammer or speech impairment. That James Burden: is the billion dollar question, because so much, and I say that literally, I don't know exactly how much money has gone into researching that exact question, what causes stuttering. But we still don't have a definitive answer. And when we don't have a definitive answer, it usually leads to the conclusion that it's just a normal part of being human. And that is what came out in 2023. There was a forum of some of the biggest names in stuttering treatment. Mark Onslow, Barry Guitar, Rosalie Shenker, others. Now these are people who literally wrote textbooks. Barry Guitar wrote my textbook in grad school for stuttering and in this forum it's a discussion over stuttering as a neurodivergence. It's not it. And it follows a neurodivergent pattern. It affects all different cultures at the same rate. It is a little bit more common in men than in women, but that could easily be a reporting issue because of the pressure on women to conform a little bit more in society or maybe a lot more. The masking abilities might be there. Now I can't necessarily prove that one, but what we see reported is a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. Stutter more, men stutter more. That's people who are identified at birth as men or women or male or female. But, and, and, and so this neurodivergent neurodiverse angle is I think incredibly powerful because as a society we are learning to accept that we have people with different kinds of minds, ADHD minds, people with autism, people who are left handed, and also in this case stuttering. That's very interesting. You say that happens across languages and I, Joanne Lockwood: I suppose that never, never occurred to me. I just always in my head imagined a stutter in English. But I guess, yeah, it happens in Chinese, it happens in Indian, Punjabi, whatever. It just, I guess the words manifest themselves differently because often in English it's certain letters that trigger, isn't it? Is it the same sounds that trigger or is it, what's the commonality between. Because often people get stuck on the T's or the S's or something or certain words. Are there certain words in different languages that also trigger. James Burden: You know what, that's another great question because what it turns out to be, it's usually a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. The sound that an individual is going to stutter on. Now the way it usually works is something like this. Some big stutter happens on a certain letter that results in an embarrassed feeling. So the next time that letter comes up for that person in a high stakes situation, they're expecting to stutter. And lo and behold they do. Because they, their body gets more tense. They, they're expecting this to happen. They, they, they sort of tense up and then it does. And then that is proof that it's that letter that is the problem and it just compounds from there. And usually it's not always this way. But a very common letter for someone to stutter on is the first letter of their name. Because they have had an experience where they've tried to introduce themselves, they've stuttered and then some smart person has said, what did you forget your name? Because that's such a classic thing to say when someone stutters on their own name and people don't realise how harmful that can be and how hurtful. Even though it seems like an innocuous joke, it is not an innocuous joke if you're very sensitive and understandably so, considering how people treat stutterers about stuttering and not wanting to stutter where people can hear you. So Joanne Lockwood: as a listener or the other part of a conversation and somebody is struggling, however we would describe that, what should I do to be a better listener and to help that person over the situation? Should I. Obviously I shouldn't be speaking for them. I shouldn't be interrupting them, I shouldn't be completing their sentence. How should I react? You're absolutely right with the not James Burden: interrupting and not completing sentences. That's. If there. If there were gonna be rules, that would be rule number one. The best thing to do is simply wait and listen and just be patient and keep looking at the person. And I think more importantly is what we're doing here is advocating that stuttering is not a disorder, it's not a disease, it's not a neurological problem, it's not a tick. It's simply the way that this portion of the population, 1%, which is much, much bigger than most people would realise, how many people that stutter, that's simply the way that they talk and that it's okay. And if you understand that deep inside as the listener, makes it a lot easier not to have to, like, remember all the rules about how to talk to a person who stutters. You just know that it's okay and you don't have to worry about them and they're fine. They're just doing their thing. It's just going to take a couple extra seconds. Sometimes it's going to take even longer. But if you wait, the message will come out. And you don't have to say anything like, it's okay, I'm waiting. You don't have to, like, draw attention to it in any real way. You're just. You're just paying attention like you would to anyone who is taking a little bit longer to say something. Yeah. As you're talking now, I'm just thinking, how would I react in the Joanne Lockwood: situation? And I'm thinking all these emotions and things are flying around my head going, oh, do I feel. So am I feeling sorry for that person? Maybe I am. Maybe I'm feeling a bit of empathy. Maybe I'm feeling a bit of compassion, benevolence. I want to say they're there. It's okay. Don't worry. I want to help them and reassure them, but I also, in my head is, don't draw attention to it. Be patient. Don't look like I'm bothered. But it's trying to find that middle ground, isn't it? Just a blank stare and kind of a vacant smile, tilting your head to one side and going, I'm waiting on the inside. I'm waiting on the inside. Keep going. And I'm just trying to think of how I can learn myself to create the right listening face, the right listening mode to not add to the pressure. I think that when we know that there's James Burden: nothing wrong, it's not a sign of anything. It's not a sign of lower intelligence, it's not a sign of a neurological problem, it's not a sign of a disease or anything, then it takes the pressure off us to, to look normal, look normal, everything's okay. Also, when I said don't draw attention to it, I think that's absolutely fair. When talking to adults, we. We don't need to tell them they're okay or, or. Or give them a pat or, or feel sorry for anyone. What we. But I. That. That doesn't necessarily mean. Let's say you've got a young child who stutters. I'm not saying don't talk about it because that just makes it into the elephant in the room. When we, when we don't talk to a child about their stutter at all, then we're sending the message, this is so bad that we can't even talk about it. I remember experiences when I was young. Nothing to do with stuttering, but, like, the things that we don't talk about are the worst possible things. We don't talk about Uncle John because, you know, in his drinking problem. Just don't talk about it. Never mention it, you know, like it. Those are the things in families that are a sign that it's really, really bad. So I don't suggest that parents don't talk to their children about stuttering if that starts to happen. There's also a lot of, like, typical developmental stuttering that may come and then go just on its own. And if it goes fine, if it stays also fine, there are other ways to deal with it. And I don't mean deal with it as in fix it. I just mean ways to interact with your child. I mean Palin pci. So Palin parent child interaction is actually based out of the UK where you're located. And it's From Michael Palin. And I love Michael Palin's story. You remember him from Monty Python. Monty Python, yeah. Great fan of Michael Payne. So he did a movie called the Fish Called Wanda many years ago where he played a stutterer. Yes, he did. And he was the comic relief. And after the movie aired, a stuttering organisation came to him and said, hey, you've actually done us a disservice. You know, you're putting up stutterers as people to be laughed at and mocked. And he was so struck by this that he founded the Palin Institute for Stuttering. He has done more for stuttering than any single other person I can think of off the top of my head. You know, he founded this institute, he's put money into research and more important, he's put money into therapy. And so I did one of my trainings. I did, I flew to Boston and people from the Palin Centre flew into Boston as well. And I spent a week learning about Palin Parent Child Interaction Therapy, which is very different from the Lidcombe method. So Palin pci, or Parent Child Interaction, teaches how you interact with your child on a. You get down to their level, you learn how to play with them by commenting instead of asking a bunch of questions. Now, it's interesting. I'm talking a lot now about how to help a young child. My current focus and the focus of my masterclass is on adults. It's like how especially professionals, entrepreneurs, people who are. Have a lot of skin in the game and need their speech to advance their careers or advance their business or whatever they're working on, go after their goals. So that's what I'm focusing on now. But I've worked with all ages. I've worked with adults, I've worked with teenagers, I've worked with school age kids and I've worked with preschool kids, pretty much everybody. So I'm giving you guys some information about what to do if you're a parent and you're worrying about your child starting to stutter. But, but most of what I'm. My, my masterclass is focused on the adult. So if you're a person who stutters as an adult, definitely check it out. It'll give you more about how society and how the stigma has made things harder for you on a level that I'm sure you understand if you're a person who stutters, but how it's actually affecting your speech and by going underneath the iceberg. So Joseph Sheehan, a longtime stuttering advocate, person who stutters and a therapist Talked about the stuttering iceberg. And so the top of the iceberg is the stutters that you hear and maybe avoidance behaviours that you see like I'm not going to talk in this situation, I'm, I'm going to avoid this word. I'm going to do everything I can to avoid speaking or avoid stuttering. But underneath the iceberg is the thoughts, the feelings, the self judgement, the myths about stuttering. All of the parts that affect your mind and your soul and create those surface behaviours. So if we are tensing up, we're more likely to stutter. If we are afraid that we're going to stutter, we're more likely to avoid. So the way to really help in the long run and not only help but provide lasting support is to melt that iceberg. So take that to warmer water. And by warmer water I mean an environment like a therapy room like with me, where you start to feel accepted for your stutter. And I also like to get people together who stutter so that they can see other people who stutter, see how completely normal it is. Completely, um, okay. And because people judge themselves insanely, hardly insanely hard, but then they see somebody else and they're not anywhere near as judgmental. So we can learn not to judge someone else. Then we can learn to turn that around on ourselves. And this is where it kind of gets into almost a, like a spiritual aspect. Like when, when. Because I used acceptance commitment therapy as part of my programme and that's about like turning that light of consciousness back on yourself and looking at yourself with kindness and a lack and non judgement. And that's what act is about. It's about deciding what your values are. What is more important to me, not stuttering or going for what I know I can do and deserve. And at first it's going to be not stuttering is more important. But then as we begin to not judge we can move that down and begin to see that maybe going for the job interview is more important, maybe building a business is more important. Maybe talking to the man or woman that you're interested in is more important than not stuttering and slowly working towards those goals. You're putting your values in a new order. Yeah, I can certainly relate to the Joanne Lockwood: internalisation and manifesting your, manifesting all of the stereotypes, all of that self loathing all at once in your head and putting yourself in situations where you can't stop by being wholly consumed that cognitive load of worry that you're gonna, the first thing that's gonna come out of your mouth is gonna be a stutter. So I can certainly understand how that limits people's ability to interact in society. Because you say, as you said earlier, what we have is this stigma and is there an opposite of normalisation, denormalization, where you're in society and society treats you less fairly because of that speech impairment difference and you're hyper aware that you don't want to feel foolish, come across foolish. If you're in a job interview, think, well, you, you're almost walking into the room go, they won't like me if I started with this. Pressure's on you to get it right, isn't it? You know, when we dig down deep James Burden: underneath the. I don't want to look foolish underneath, the pressure is. And people may not necessarily feel this consciously, but if you dig down deep, there's a sense of not being right, being broken in some way. And are you familiar with Brene Brown's work? It's. Yes. So she talks about shame, and shame is a big, heavy word. And when she talks to be like a shame researcher, who wants to talk about that? Nobody. Right. And so I'm going to go there when it comes to stuttering, because I believe at the deepest root of it all, there's a shame for being broken. And stuttering is something that has all of the things Brene Brown talks about that make shame thrive, which is silence, secrecy and judgement. So when you have those three things, shame thrives. So people are trying to keep silent, people are trying to keep their stutter secret and they're judging themselves and people are judging them or they are perceiving that people are judging them. Now, I'm sure there is absolutely, undoubtedly prejudice in the world, but I would say the. The harshest critics of people who stutter are the people who stutter themselves and not to other people who stutter to themself. Themself. They. They judge themself. And so then shame is thriving. And I've talked about shame as being like poop in the pool. So it doesn't matter how much poop is in the pool, no one's going swimming. It could be like the tiniest fleck. And I'm not saying stuttering is poop. I'm saying that the shame around it is like that it contaminates people's entire world with this idea that they're not good enough, that no one will want to swim in this pool because I'm broken. So I really need to. What I do is I try to help people with that piece while simultaneously working on the speech. But when we work on the speech, we have to work on it in a way that is not about fixing you. It's not about if you speak fluently, then you're okay. No, it's you're okay and I can help and by feeling okay, it will help you speak more fluently. So what are they kind of the Joanne Lockwood: basic techniques to help you speak more fluently because you want to, not cause there's any shame or stigma, but because you want to. What the. What the kind of technique? So there are many. James Burden: There are many different approaches. The one that I recommend using, it's a little bit more involved, but it has most lasting results and it has the most science behind it. And that's the prolonged speech family of methods. And now you could do an intensive programme, but it's like. That's like the one that I did when I was in grad school, which is the 10 days and you're really hammer at it. Or you can do Camper down, which. And what. What you do in these programmes is Camper down works like this. There's a video, I have one on YouTube and there's plenty of others out there where you watch me or whoever the speaker is, speak at it in an incredibly slow, connected, flowy kind of a way. Much in the same way like you would learn to swing a golf club or swing a baseball bat, slowly at first, very slow, just to get the muscle memory and then speed it up over time. And it ends in a kind of a flowy way of speaking that sounds like this. Now I'm overdoing it a little bit so that you can hear. But then when you speed it up, it sounds pretty much typical. Like it sounds like a typical speaker. But what we're doing is we're keeping our voice activated. So that's the here, so that stays activated. And we're making sure each word flows into the next so that it has this sort of flowiness to it. And once we. You practise with the video and you work with me to speed that up over time and still maintain like a natural cadence. So what can be challenging is as people are learning this, they might end up sounding like this for a minute. And then you have to learn how to, okay, let's re. Add in inflection and re. Add in tone and pitch. And until it sounds natural from there, it needs to actually be used. Well, what, what I'm noticing right now with my. One of my current clients is that she's started to learn this method. And she's also been tracking her daily stuttering and we're watching it going down and I have a. I won't get into, like, how we track it exactly, except that it's like it's her feelings about her stutter as opposed to exactly what it sounds like. Because what's more important is how people feel about their speech than it is what other people actually hear. So for her, she's. We. She's only been with me about three, four weeks now. I think we just hit week four and she's doing amazing. She's. Her stuttering is reduced a great deal. She's putting herself out there more than she ever did before and she's feeling really good about it. And that's before we've even finished the programme. What we're going to be doing now is taking what she's learned and going and trying it out with different people. So we start with the easy ones, you know, friends and family. Using this technique for speaking with friends and family and then trying it out with people that she doesn't know quite so well, eventually getting it towards where she'll be doing a little bit of public speaking. Not huge public speaking, but just like in front of, like, a group of people. Not like on stage, just like at a party, say. And then each time we're. We're kind of combining this acceptance, commitment, therapy approach, putting what is most valuable to you with what is. So what are your goals for your speech and then moving up this hierarchy. So she's doing amazing. She's only having to work on this for 15 minutes a day and she's already in a month in. She is. Her mindset has changed a huge amount. She's learning. Not that she doesn't have to be perfect in every single situation because, like, we've been talking about stuttering doesn't mean there's anything wrong, so. And also speech. What. What people don't realise. We are all naturally good at speaking as humans, right? So if a cat is agile and good on its feet, we have a natural ability to talk. But the fine motor coordination that is required to speak is enormous. We have to. We have to coordinate our lips, tongue, lungs, jaw, vocal folds, all in real time, while simultaneously processing language. And then when there's a little interruption in that, we think we might think to ourselves we're not a good speaker. But this is like a tiny blip in an incredibly complex machine that people don't realise. And then people are tracking for danger. They're worried that they're Gonna stutter. So that just interrupts the machine even more. And the pressure is what my current client is, one of my current clients is learning to release. So releasing that pressure, learning to speak in a new way, trying it out in new situations. And again the masterclass kind of breaks it down in more detail than I. Then we have time for here. But that being said, it's, it's only a 19 minute masterclass. It just very quickly will run you through all of the ways that your mindset is affected and how that actually affects the speech directly. So it's not just us sitting around holding hands, singing Kumbaya, saying you're okay because you stutter. It's by doing that it gen genuinely affects the way we speak. It's, it's much more than just feeling good about ourselves. It's about how to speak more fluently because you feel good about yourself. You mentioned at the beginning that about 1% of the population Joanne Lockwood: will have a stutter some of some shape or form globally across ages and disproportionately men over women. I would say. Well, I'm guessing it's far more prevalent for people to have different speak speech artefacts for want of a better way of describing them in terms of filler words. The ums, the ahs, the I know I speak and I often repeat a word as thinking time. So I would go I, I, I or and, and, and, and I would have those kind of artefacts in the way I speak. And I often when I'm reviewing the transcript I see the words stacked up and I think well that was me revving up for the next sentence if you like. Can the techniques you're using here help that those artefacts as well as a stutter or are they different attributes of the mind here? Well, what you're talking about is completely James Burden: natural for all of us. I do it, you do it. Those little like I just did right there, like the, I'm like giving myself time to process language and this is what gets mixed up into something that would be what we call stuttering versus normal disfluency. Those things get mixed up in together. And yes, a lot of the techniques, the slowing way down technique and then speeding up, that's more for fluency, that is more for stuttering. But a lot of the other kinds of things that we learn in my programme are pausing, slowing down on your main point. All of the natural good public speaking techniques also help you stutter less. And you, you talked about like these things happening when you're under stress or when you're trying to speak in a public situation, maybe on a podcast. Right now, like as I'm processing what I want to say, I'm having to slow down. And if I don't slow down then I'm going to do the ums and the ahs. Another factor for the ums and the odds for people who stutter is sometimes they're using them to cover a stutter. I know I can say this certain phrase fluently every time. So it might be a, you know, it might be a, you know what I mean or it might be any kind of little filler phrase that keeps things flowing for them while they think of the next thing. So it's a combination of language processing and motor planning for the mouth. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I know there Joanne Lockwood: are certain words that I'm going to trip over. I just can't get my. I just can't form them correctly or in my mind I can't. One of them is championing. I just, I really struggle with that word and I sometimes I find myself heading down this one way street and that word's definitely on the horizon. I'm thinking, blimey, I'm going to crash into that in a minute. And I can't stop myself using that word. And what I found sometimes is maybe it's because I have the confidence to be able to make light of it and go champing one of those words I just can't say and then just make light of it and just pause and everyone in the audience knows the word I'm trying to say. I've made light of the fact it's got stuck in my mouth somehow and I just move on from it having used the word as a lighthearted segue to something else. And I guess some of that is confidence and also. But I know when I'm on stage speaking, training, whatever I'm doing, I'll know that I'll get end up in this linguistic roadblock. It's gonna hit me. And sometimes I won't even finish the sentence. I'll somehow pause, segue to something else and carry on talking. And I've learned over the years that nobody notices, nobody really listens that intensively to every single word you say. And I think once I stopped being hung up about being word perfect on every sentence, I realised that nobody cares or nobody notices. That pressure comes off, doesn't it? You've hit the nail James Burden: on the head there. So there's a couple of wonderful points in there. First off, that this is a very human thing, you don't have to self identify as a person who stutters to have gone through that experience of, oh, no, here's a word I don't know how to say. It always comes out wrong. And then because of that knowledge or that expectation, then it go. Then it does come out that way. And then it's more proof for you that you can't say that word. The other thing you mentioned is other people don't really notice that much. Now, if you're a person who stutters, who has been teased since you were a little kid, corrected, told that you don't speak normal, then those little micro traumas add up to a bigger trauma around your speech. And it's a lot harder to let that go or laugh it off the way a person who doesn't have that lived experience would. So for you and me, if I stutter, I'll just like, oh, wow, that was funny. And then I move on. If you've had a lot of these micro traumas, it's a lot harder and you kind of clench up even tighter or you just won't put yourself in a situation where that could possibly happen because the fear of that happening is, is too great. The experience, you can't, you don't want to relive that over and over. You remember times as it's happened already and it's, it's just too much. There's so many more people out there who stutter than, than you'd expect. But most of them, you would never hear them do it or know that they stutter because they're avoiding, because they're making sure you don't hear it. And that is one of the things that is top of mind for them. And maybe if we work on that mindset. Well, I know that if we work on that mindset, that can start to relieve the pressure and put them in the same position that you and I would be of just like, oh, laughing it off and moving on. Are there speecho files? Joanne Lockwood: Like, you have audiophiles, you know, people who want the perfect sound recording, you know, the purists who find CD music abhorrent and it has to be the full harmonics of analogue music from a vinyl. Are there people who have the speech thing? Because I've been on various podcast forums and there are people say, oh, no, you must clean out all the ums and the ahs. And I get so distracted if the voice isn't fluent and the right level of recording and the right depth of tone. And are there people out there that want to Police you into their definition of perfect. James Burden: Well, I've done a number of podcasts so far and I've never met any of them. It seems to me more likely that those kind of people are self conscious than they are other consciousness. So if they are disfluent, whether they're a person who stutters or not, if they are disfluent, then that bugs them. If their sound isn't just so it bugs them. And maybe it bugs them when other people's sounds are. But I think it's less common than the self judgement. Maybe that's just my personal opinion. Joanne Lockwood: Just fluent a lot as a. I never heard of that word before, but yeah, it's. We talked about stuttering. There's another word, stammer. Is. Is a stutter and a stammer the same thing? Oh yes, yeah, sorry, of course. James Burden: It's just a. It's a cultural difference. In the UK it's stammer and in North America it's stutter. They mean exactly the same thing. Yeah, I've heard Joanne Lockwood: both terms. I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say that stutter is not a UK word, but I've heard they describe it as stammering. So they are the same thing. Yeah, I don't really. There is another James Burden: thing as well called cluttering. I don't want to get too into that. That is a very much more rare. It's like so stuttering is one in a hundred. I don't know the stats on cluttering, but it's related. But it's more like squishing words together. I don't know how to even imitate it the way I could. I'm used to being able to produce a stutter so that I can work with clients on it. So. And it's important for me. Sometimes I will stutter publicly. Sometimes I. I go out and stutter and just to remind myself of the lived experience of people who stutter. It's not the same as having it all the time, but just to. Okay, what is it like when people give you that funny look or do they even give it to you or is it just you're expecting to see it? It's interesting. It's worth. It's worth a little experiment. If you're not a person who stutters, just to go try it once in a while. I don't really expect a lot to take me up on that challenge, but it is eye opening and to see how people react to you if you stutter. Yeah. I developed Joanne Lockwood: a self consciousness if you like. Probably when I was hitting puberty, 11, 10, 12 years old. That kind of age we first become self aware of judgement and how people see us and things like that. And I remember in school classes in English, we had to read out, I think it was probably Shakespeare or Romeo and Juliet or something. We all had to. The teacher would go around the room and say, right, you read out the next paragraph. And I remember having to stand up in class holding this book. And I find it extremely difficult to read and talk, to read out loud from a written page. My eyes don't track properly. I'm really bad at following a book and reading each line. I can read paragraphs and I can read and get the gist of things, but I can't read word for word. So I used to be really paranoid about standing up, reading out loud, knowing I would lose track of where I was in the sentence or not be able to come up the next word properly. And of course that, that led me to feel like I was going bright red. You know, that embarrassment, all the blood flowing to my cheeks, all that fight flight, fear kicking in, that adrenaline and that, that led me to avoiding standing up and speaking out loud for many, many years. Yeah, right up and probably through my 20s, into my 30s. And it only became, when I guess I became more self confident in other things, in my ability, that I lost the fear just by being a more confident person. But it did dog me for many years, that stigma and shame of not being able to speak without my face going bright red and the fear of messing up in public all through that, reading out loud in school. James Burden: And so here you are as a podcaster, you're speaking in front of, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of people, even if it's recorded first, you're, you're putting yourself out there. So for you, I'm curious, do you think the confidence came first or did putting yourself out there come first? Or was it like kind of like meshed in together? I think it was. I'm gonna, Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna say. Experience. Of nobody really noticed, you know, I was standing up, I was doing something, I wasn't practising, I was doing live. All the anxieties in my head, all these things are firing off in my brain saying, you can't, this is going to go wrong, you're going to go bright red, you're going to fluff it up, people are not going to like you, they're going to hate you. All this stigma's kicking in. And then I realised that it was Just false statements going on in my head. I learned that all these, all this negative down talk was made up and I think it just became. I overcame that self fulfilling prophecy with a new story and became a new self fulfilling prophecy that it was okay. And I went to a stage where I was just starting to become a stage professional speaker going out on stage all the time in front of 6, 700 people audiences, huge audiences. And I'd always have this fight flight, fear kicking in in like 30 seconds before I was. As the person started to introduce me, I'd always sit in the wings going, if there's suddenly a power cut, I won't be disappointed. If suddenly I'm cancelled. And the person introducing me says, we've changed the programme, sorry Joanne, you're not on anymore. I was going. So I had this major anxiety because I was always scared of those first words, that first sentence. Because in my mind I wasn't sure what I was going to say first. Because I'm one of these speakers that doesn't have a script. I don't over rehearse things. The first thing that comes out of my mouth often is a surprise to me. It's been playing around in my head and something gets, a package of words gets delivered to my mouth and it comes out at the right moment. So I had to learn to trust myself. I had to learn that when I'm on that stage and I pause, I smile, I look around the room to create that dramatic effect, that lean in feeling in the audience. I knew that whatever came out my mouth first was gonna make sense, the audience were gonna be drawn in and it would work. So once I started realising that I could trust myself, I then believed in myself and now I don't get that anxiety. Someone said, oh, can you go up there and talk about this? I go, give me 10 seconds, I'll just plug the module in. Go. Okay, okay, okay. All right, I've got an opening line. Once the opening line's out, I know the rest will just follow. And it is a kind of a trust in me and not let that fear dominate my life. So yeah, I guess it's, I've developed that technique. And also people have described me as having a late night radio voice, very slow, very methodical, very rhythmic. When someone said they found it very warming and easy to listen to, I thought, okay, let's max that. Let's really focus on that's the way I speak. And very rhythmic and very calm. It means I don't have to rush my sentences out. And I Can put a bit of pace in if I want to. I can tone up, tone down and I can bring some different sorts of pace and rhythm to my speaking. So, yeah, it is a learned behaviour through observation and practise. James Burden: What you're describing is so human. I mean, one of the biggest fears many people have sometimes. I've heard this said. I don't know if it's true that sometimes people fear embarrassment more than death or they fear public speaking more than death. And, like, I can't speak to that, but because I am, I don't have that fear. Dying? No, no, I haven't tried dying either. But I mean, I've been in some scary situations, skiing and some scary situations doing sports. Yeah, no, fear of death is worse than. Worse than fear of public speaking for me. But, you know, that might be true for some people. What you said, though, made me think of this funny quip I heard. When you are young, you care what other people think. And in middle age you don't care what other people think. And when you get older, you realise no one was thinking about you in the first place, they were just thinking about themselves. And that is very powerful for getting up on stage or very powerful for doing a podcast. People want to hear what's in it for them. If you make a little mistake here and there, the people who are judging you are more likely, if they are judging you at all, they're judging you to feel better about themselves, that really, everyone's wandering around thinking about themselves 99% of the time. So if that helps you take some of the fear out of public speaking, out of trying to speak, and the fact that you might start to remember that most people are just thinking about themselves most of the time. Yeah. There's another analogy that I use on this one, Joanne Lockwood: where if you take a group photo, whether that's your school, class, the conference you're at, your family grouping, whatever it may be, and the first thing you do when you grab that photograph is you find yourself in it to make sure your expression, whether you were looking the right way, whether you were smiling at the camera, whether your hair was in place yet your clothing was right, I guarantee that's what most people will do with a photograph, where they're in it somewhere they'll find themselves. And if you pass that photo to the next person, they're going to do exactly the same about them and not give a hoot about you. It's only maybe after time passes, they'll scan the line and go, oh, look, you've got A silly grin on, haven't you? But the first reaction everyone's going to do with that photograph is find themselves and worry about them. So exactly what you're saying, so what's in it for me? What do I care about? I care about me, how I'm getting out of this. Actually, you know, I've got my daughter, you take a photograph, you say, oh, don't ever post that, don't. What did you post that one for? I look awful. I go, it's just a family photo, we all look awful, don't worry about it. Because people lock on to themselves and they exactly what you're saying. So audibly or even visually. James Burden: And so if, if I could take that point and run with it, if, if there's people listening right now who want to know, what can I get out of this? And I'm speaking to, mainly to the people who stutter. What you can get out of listening to this and watching my masterclass is how to use these techniques practically, how to use this information about people not really thinking about you, about how stuttering affects your mindset and your mindset affects your speech. How to use that practically to stutter less. Because that is what most people who stutter are interested in. They want to stutter less. They don't want to hear about mindset or feeling good about themselves, they just want to stutter less. And I'm here to say that learning about mindset, learning about techniques will help you stutter less. So that is what you can get out of my very short 19 minute masterclass. It's not, it's not there to just make you feel good right away, but to actually help you stutter less by feeling good about yourself. James, that is fascinating. I Joanne Lockwood: mean, our conversation is, it's, it's really resonated with me. Just as I say my own speech artefacts. Never. I don't think I've ever stuttered, but I've, I've certainly had speech artefacts I've been very paranoid about, so it's helped me contextualise those. So how can people get ahold of you and find out more about your masterclass and your programme? Well, I'll give you the link to the James Burden: masterclass and that will send you straight to a. When you watch the first minute or so, three minutes, then you'll get a link to book a call with me. I am just interested in having conversations with people, so it's, there's no charge to have a conversation with me. Just get on the phone, tell me what your struggles are. I'll see if I can help you. And if you invite me to help you, I will. This is not. I have never, ever successfully convinced someone that they need help with their stutter, that it has to come from them. So because otherwise none of the therapy, none of the coaching can be effective from a. From a place of. I don't really want to be here. So there's absolutely no point whatsoever in pressuring you. So please reach out, make a call. Even if it's about a teen or a loved one, maybe I can offer them some support as well. Excellent. I found you on LinkedIn and Joanne Lockwood: just search for James Burden. B U R D E N. Yeah, you're there. Yeah. James Burden: Also, I'm on a stuttering blueprint on Facebook and Instagram. But yeah, the really best way is to just watch that masterclass and then make a call with me. Great. I'll put all the links in the show notes at the bottom Joanne Lockwood: of this so people can track you down. But it's been a fascinating conversation. James, I've really got something out this. It's a subject I've probably never explored before. So thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for having James Burden: me. Can I just send one last little. Say one last little thing to your audience? Go for it. Go for Joanne Lockwood: it. To our listener that they're leaning in. Go for it. James Burden: Okay, so for those listening, especially if you're someone who stutters, here's what I want you to take away. People are out there who need to hear your voice. Not a polished version, not a perfect version. The real you. So every week, challenge yourself to share your story with at least one person, one group or one platform. And not because it's easy, but because your voice matters. So Joanne, thank you so much for having me and this conversation has been a guest. Thanks, James. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world. One episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.