--- title: "Breaking Barriers For Women" episode: 178 date: 2025-10-09 guest: "Christine Boston" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/178-breaking-barriers-for-women audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-178/audio.mp3 --- # Breaking Barriers For Women In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Christine Boston as they examine what it truly means to break barriers for women in modern society and the workplace. The discussion maps the enduring structural and cultural obstacles women continue to encounter, from the persistent motherhood penalty to the prevalence of gender stereotypes in education, recruitment, and family life. Joanne and Christine debate the efficacy of diversity initiatives, question the myth of meritocracy, and explore how both language and communication style influence women’s advancement in leadership. Covering topics such as the impact of social media personalities like Andrew Tate, the challenges of toxic masculinity, and the subtleties of “pulling the ladder up”, this episode probes why equity must start from childhood and how workplaces must move beyond surface-level diversity to effect genuine culture change. Christine is a lifelong gender equality advocate and leadership specialist based in Wales, renowned for transforming strategic vision into purpose-led action. Her professional journey includes prominent roles with the Welsh charity Chwarae Teg, the founding trusteeship of Women’s Equality Network Wales, and international experience with the Federation of Women Lawyers in Lesotho. Having grown up questioning traditional gender roles from a young age, Christine brings first-hand insight into forming inclusive cultures and balancing feminist principles with lived experience. Her approach champions the progress of women through structural change, awareness-raising, and the fostering of authentic leadership at all levels. Joanne and Christine engage with real-life examples, challenge patriarchal norms, and offer candid perspectives on what it will take for women to truly thrive—rather than simply survive—in business and society. They illustrate how communication gaps and gendered expectations persist, while also sharing practical illustrations from home, school, and work. The key takeaway from this episode is that advancing gender equity requires more than tokenistic representation—it demands unpicking deep-seated assumptions, reconfiguring workplace merit and culture, and investing in a generational shift through early education. Listeners will come away energised by the practical insights and inspired to push for systemic changes ensuring every woman—and every person—has the opportunity not just to belong, but to lead and flourish. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introductions and Welcome - 03:19 — Early Gender Equality Awakening - 08:58 — Challenging Traditional Gender Roles - 11:40 — Empower Women for Workforce Equality - 14:42 — Persisting Sex Discrimination in Services - 16:49 — Bridging Gender Communication Gaps - 20:52 — Widespread Gender Bias Reality - 25:50 — Generational Shift in Gender Constructs - 28:27 — Challenging Gender Stereotypes in Schools - 31:08 — Rethinking Gender Roles in Football - 36:26 — Meritocracy and Gender Stereotypes - 37:13 — Women Navigate Leadership Communication Styles - 40:23 — Awareness and Redefining Merit - 45:05 — Returning to Work: Gender Bias - 47:58 — Advocating Results-Based Performance Management - 52:15 — Testosterone's Role in Women's Health - 56:31 — Self-Employment Enabled Parental Care - 59:50 — Join the Inclusion Bites Community, Your Invitation ## Key takeaways - How early gender role expectations and societal norms shape aspirations and limit opportunities for both girls and boys. - The tangible impact of legislative changes on women’s financial independence and societal perceptions, from the Sex Discrimination Act to present day. - The persistent career-family dichotomy that women face, why true equality requires broader cultural change, and how household roles influence future generations. - The damaging influence of online personalities and movements reinforcing toxic masculinity and resistance to women’s empowerment. - The importance of understanding gendered communication styles in the workplace, and why genuine inclusion depends on valuing diverse perspectives rather than fitting a single mould. - Intersectionality and the need to ensure diversity initiatives benefit all women, rather than perpetuating privilege or pulling up the ladder. - Practical steps for employers and leaders to move beyond recruitment metrics—such as meritocracy and quotas—towards reshaping organisational cultures, policies, and performance management to support genuine equity. ## FAQs ### Who was the guest on this episode, and what is her background? The guest was Christine Boston, a lifelong gender equality advocate and leadership specialist based in Wales. Christine has extensive experience in policy, research, and leadership—she’s held roles such as Policy and Research Lead at the Welsh charity Chwarae Teg, was a founding trustee of the Women’s Equality Network Wales, and has worked internationally with organisations like the Federation of Women Lawyers in Lesotho. Her expertise centres around building inclusive cultures and championing women’s rights. --- ### What motivated Christine Boston to become a gender equality advocate? Christine’s advocacy began in her early childhood, growing up in a Catholic family where she observed gendered restrictions for girls. Influenced by her mother’s role as the primary earner and the cultural shifts of the 1980s—including the Sex Discrimination Act and women’s increasing financial independence—Christine became passionate about challenging social constructs that limited women’s opportunities. --- ### How does Welsh culture and government approach gender equality, and how has this impacted Christine? Wales has historically been more forthright than some UK regions regarding gender equity, with efforts to promote women in leadership and government. Christine, though born in England, developed her professional career in Wales, benefitting from and contributing to this progressive ethos. However, she notes that gender balance in institutions like the Senedd has fluctuated, reflecting persistent societal barriers and stereotypes. --- ### Is it possible for women to “have it all”—a successful career and family life? The discussion emphasised the enduring dichotomy women face between career and family. In patriarchal societies, distinct gender roles are still the default, often forcing women to make difficult compromises. While progress has been made, genuine balance requires further cultural change, especially regarding shared domestic responsibilities and equal workplace participation. --- ### What are the current societal challenges in gender equity, especially concerning boys and young men? The episode highlights growing concerns about the rise of toxic masculinity and influential figures like Andrew Tate, who champion regressive gender attitudes. Christine cited the reach of such personalities as a genuine threat, noting how extreme views about women can influence boys and create backlash against progress in gender equality. --- ### Are there inherent differences between men and women in communication and leadership styles? Christine referenced sociolinguist Deborah Tannen’s work, pointing to distinct “genderlects.” Generally, men may focus on status and competition, while women emphasise connection and support. These differences carry into leadership; women are often judged more harshly for assertiveness, while male-coded behaviours are more readily accepted. However, both guests caution against oversimplification or stereotyping, noting the value in broadening workplace understanding of varying styles. --- ## Transcript Christine Boston: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 178 with the title Breaking Barriers for Women. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Christine Boston. Christine is a lifelong gender equality advocate and leadership specialist who's on a mission to build inclusive cultures that empower everyone to thrive. When I asked Christine to describe her superpower, she said that it is turning strategic vision into inclusive purpose led action. Hello, Christine, welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Hi, Jo. Nice to see you. Yeah, and we were just chatting in the green room just now and we first connected on LinkedIn in 2018, so that's. We've been stalking each other for seven years. That's a while. A long time. Christine Boston: Indeed. And did I pick up on the fact you're Joanne Lockwood: based in Wales, is that right? I am in Wales, yeah. Just outside Christine Boston: Cardiff. Lovely city. I've Joanne Lockwood: spent many a night out in the. Near the Wetherspoons area. The Prince of Wales, is it the. That's the one, yeah. In my younger days, when I was a bit more of a party animal than I am now. Great part of town. So the kids are breaking up for Easter soon, aren't they? Is that right? Christine Boston: They are, yeah. One more week of school and then, yeah, they'll be home for two weeks. Wow. Wow. What are you gonna do with Joanne Lockwood: them? Well, probably avoid the rain. We've had really good weather all week, you know, Christine Boston: in the run up to the Easter holiday. So that means it's definitely going to be a wet one. So I'm sure we'll be, you know, doing lots of soft play and finding some indoor activities to keep them occupied instead of letting them run around outside. Well, you. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: the introduction. I said this is the title is Breaking Barriers for Women and I realise and know that that's a huge passion of you around gender equity and equality for all gen and calling out some of the constructs that are there. So what got you into what you're doing? And, yeah, give us a bit of background as to why you do that. Yeah, so I've been a gender equality activist Christine Boston: since I was about 6 or 7. And I know that always kind of sounds really strange, you know, how is that possible? But actually, I grew up in a Catholic family, so we were at church every week. I went to a Catholic school and it was about that age that, you know, as a girl, I realised there were things that I would be told I couldn't do, you know, just for that reason, no other good reason, just because I'm a girl. So, you know, we were kind of, as girls, we'd sit and think, well, that's not fair, you know, why can't we do that? And that's kind of where it started. And then I was a child of the 80s as well, so, you know, that was a really big time for women's empowerment. And I don't think, you know, there was any way really of avoiding having that influence me in my household as well. My mum was the main earner, but we'd still have salespeople, people ringing the house and not wanting to speak to her, but wanting to speak to my dad or, you know, if they're coming round, you know, can they come round when my dad's home? Because they're still kind of obsessed with the man making the buying decisions, you know, and that wasn't the case practically in my home growing up, so. But of course it was into the 80s, you know, the Sex Discrimination act was passed in 1975, so kind of awareness, empowerment was kind of really coming about. It was the era of women having independence, being financially independent, you know, because of the new legislation. Women then, you know, there was kind that could no longer be told. They had to have a male guarantor to have a mortgage, for example, they could have their own bank account, they could have their job. And it was kind of the age of the superwoman archetype. You know, women, you can have it all. You can have the career, the big shoulder pads, the family, you know, all that. Yeah. So that, you know, those kind of, like values and ideals really sunk in for me. So I was very determined. I was going to have the career, I was going to have the independence I was going to. You know, from that point, I kind of really championed women's rights and I have been a trailblazer myself. You know, there are changes in terms of altar service. I mean, this sounds really geeky, doesn't it? And I'm not a massive religious churchgoer these days. But it is true to say that, you know, I played a major role in shaping the kind of system where boys could serve on the altar and girls couldn't. And now boys and girls do that equally. And I just believe that if you want to, there's no practical reason why you shouldn't, then that ought to be okay. So, yeah, so brought about a lot of change. And then I was very determined myself to be financially independent. I. Because kind of, you know, women then were able to get mortgages, get property in their own right. That's what I was going to do. I bought my first house when I was 21, I think, kind of to get a real idea of what that's like. I found the Handmaid's Tale really, like, enlightening because they're going through a time, you know, at the kind of beginning of season one, where they're losing all these rights again. You know, only the men can have the bank account. So all your money and your bank account and your assets have to go in, you know, your brother's or your husband's name. So I think, you know, that's a really good way to sort of understand it and it brings it to life in a kind in the modern day. Um, and then I went on to work in gender equality professionally. I was policy and research lead for the Welsh charity Gwara Teag, which is. Was an organisation focusing on gender equality in the economy. Then I was a founding trustee of When Wales, which is the Women's Equality Network in Wales. I spent some time in Africa working for the Federation of Women Lawyers Feeder in Lesotho. And I've had my own women's leadership journey in those roles. I've done a lot on women's leadership, and I kind of really took that to heart and sort of have, you know, tried to be a women's leader, leadership role model myself as well, in my own career. So Wales, Joanne Lockwood: for those of you who are listening outside of the uk, is a separate country. You have a different culture, maybe to the rest of the uk. I know that the Welsh government were very forthright in gender equity and promoting women in society and leadership roles. Do you think that's had a big influence on you, the fact that you are Welsh and not English or not British, if you like, and there's an identity around that? Yeah. So I Was born in England, Christine Boston: made in Wales. Right. So my career has been in Wales, my gender equality professional career has been Wales. And yes, you know, I kind of work very close with government, very closely with the most senior women in Wales. And yeah, there is a kind of, you know, attitude ethos that, you know, women can be and will be leaders too, that we need gender diversity and broader diversity in decision making. And they've been, you know, some wins, some losses. I think we have a gender balanced cabinet now. We've certainly had them in the past, but then the number of women in the Senate, the Welsh Parliament, that's gone down over the years, you know, and that continues to be a drive to try and increase that. And I think, you know, it's the societal barriers, I think, that get in the way, stereotypes, things like that, that really need to be discussed in the open and addressed as far as possible. In the. In Joanne Lockwood: the workplace, when we talk about career and aspirations, there's always this, I think the word, is it dichotomy. You can't, you can't have it all. Women still have to make a choice whether they want a career or a family. No matter how, how much girl power is there, the need to be a great mum or be a great parent often overrides the priority of furthering a career. Or you have to make that sacrifice. And I know many career women who have to have that. Trade and compromise. Are we ever going to get to the point where women can have it all? I think it's very difficult and I think it needs a balance, really. But Christine Boston: the fact is we're in a patriarchal society and in a patriarchal society, you know, a masculine culture by default, the very, you know, fundamental basis of that is distinct roles for men and women. Now, in my household, we have a very feminine culture. You know, there are no clear gender roles between myself and my husband and I'm quite interested to see how that influences my son as the years go on. I mean, he's definitely very subject to the influence of stereotyping in school, I notice. And so he's having to sort of make his own mind up about gender ideals, you know, whether pink is an okay colour for him and that sort of thing, whether he can, you know, have his nails painted if he wants to and play with the girls and all these. All these things that, you know, shouldn't really matter. But the, you know, social values and norms are being constructed at that age. He's six, you know, so he's in primary school. That's kind of where it's all coming together and you can see, you know, different children have different ideas. You know, some households will be more traditional than ours is and yeah, we'll see how he grows up. But I think, you know, he certainly doesn't see this one role for Mum and one role for dad. So, you know, I think he'll grow up to be more open minded and more kind of like understanding of difference. Yeah, I was watching, I don't know if you've seen it, the Joanne Lockwood: Netflix series Adolescence, which everyone's talking about at the moment and talk about incel talking about the rise of say, toxic masculinity. I know that's an inflammatory phrase. I don't mean that to be inflammatory to what I'm listening. But it's kind of using the language of Andrew Tate and the followers and the how the intel movement is gaining traction amongst younger generation, you know, young boys mainly. And that must be quite worrying because there's almost like this pushback or hang on a minute, women are getting too much. Men want to take their power back. Yeah, it's very worrying. And you know, I Christine Boston: wouldn't even repeat the things that are being communicated by Andrew Tate because I think it is, you know, it's a real concern and a worry it should be for all of us and what that creates. I mean, Andrew Tate, you know, he's such an influential TikTok personality. His videos have been watched 11.6 billion times according to the article I was reading. And that is, you know, I'm sure increased already. And it's creating really extreme views against women, I would say. Women, I would argue, which I think is fair to say, you know, the figures really back this up. Women are already really disadvantaged and face a lot of barriers to, you know, to kind of achievement, to being independent. And you know, I think that is really played down a lot. And we're in a society where a lot of households have two incomes, you know, whether that second income be part time or full time. But you know, both parents in the household are working. So yeah, women need to be able to kind of participate. If they're being kind of treated equally in terms of financial responsibility, then they need to be able to participate equally as well. And I always think, you know, we've, we're educating our girls, we're paying to educate our girls and, and that's exactly the right thing, but then we should be helping them to utilise their skills as well. There's so many women working in low paid, low skilled, part time roles because they're trying to, you know, raise the family at the same time, and that's a great loss to society. It's not a great use of the investment, I think, that we've put into women. But yeah, of course, you know, as well as Andrew Tate, we've had the Mark Zuckerberg comments as well, haven't we, recently, about too much feminine energy is neutering the corporate world. And he's saying he wants a culture that celebrates aggression more. And really what does that achieve for anybody, you know, celebrating aggression? And I've kind of, you know, I think we need to have a better awareness of male and female styles and approaches, but it's a matter of bringing those all together for the benefit. And I mean, I kind of looked at the figures around the Meta senior leadership team and their board. Their leadership team is one third women. Their board is 23% women. You know, as far as I could tell, I'm just looking at the website and that. So the board roles, that's about the same as the global average. They're making about $62 billion net profit, which seems pretty good to me. So it doesn't kind of look like women have, you know, held them back too much. I think, you know, Zuckerberg might actually agree that gender diversity on boards is good for business. And I just think, you know, maybe his views are more related to the fear of the male elite losing their power in a patriarchal society, you know, which the US and the UK are. But in terms of kind of the benefits for business, you know, we know diversity is good. The figures show that, you know, in terms of kind of boardroom representation, the boards that have a good representation of women, they celebrate, you know, the benefits of different perspectives. They have better business performance and they're more innovative and creative. So, you know, there's a very clear argument for helping women to progress. Now, I, I've written some articles on Sheryl Joanne Lockwood: Sanderberg, the. The former Facebook executive who is famous for her leaning in mantra and the criticism coming that really she isn't a feminist, she's a complicit male applauder and promoting white women and not intersectional approach and pulling up, she's pulling up the ladder behind her for black women and people around her. So even though we have maybe female representation in some of these big mega corporates, are they really doing much for gender equality or are they doing a lot for themselves? Christine Boston: And that is the question we need to ask. Pulling the ladder up behind them is extremely common and kind of, you Know what I see, sex discrimination is still an issue today. You know, I can kind of give a personal example. When I was accessing financial services not that long ago, I, you know, it was me that went for the service, it was me that was paying for the service. And then when, you know, I was looking to get a mortgage with my husband, they wanted to put my husband's name first on their, you know, because it helps their filing. I mean, I just don't see it, you know, I can't understand what the reason is, why that's important. If I'm your client and I'm paying, you know, why does my husband need to go first? So that was really kind of, you know, enlightening for me. And then we know that claims are going up as well. So, you know, there's clearly things happening here. And the figures show that ACAs are reporting a 6.2 increase in disputes between 23 and 24 facing successful claims and an increase in the amount of money awarded. And I think kind of what's happening is, you know, got lots of. There's lots of awareness about underrepresented groups and the barriers for them. I think you have lots of kind of empowerment programmes for those non underrepresented groups. So there. And I think what's happening is, you know, they are really empowered and they understand what's happening, they can see it. But then, you know, kind of, I, I think where it goes wrong is businesses increase diversity, but they don't do the culture work to go with it. And so you have, you know, there will be conflict and probably lots of microaggressions. Maybe, you know, when concerns get raised, nothing happens and it can become like a really big, you know, reputational issue. You're seeing lots of examples of it. I feel like I'm seeing it every week at the minute. It was Mid and North Wales Police having major issues with harassment and sex discrimination. BBC McDonald's. You know, there's been kind of quite a number in the last few weeks that are kind of really standing out for me. And yeah, I think it's, you know, I think what's really important is understanding, understanding and understanding that men and women are different. I feel like that gets played down all the time, you know, like men and women are a homogenous group. But there's so much evidence that demonstrates the kind how women are disadvantaged in society and particularly from an economic point of view. And I'm really, really interested. I'm extremely passionate about the work of Deborah Tannen, who's A sociolinguist and she wrote a book and it's a bit dated now, but for me it's such an important piece of work and I know that she was kind of quite blown away about the interest in the kind of gender aspect of her work and has done a lot more on that as a result. But yeah, the book's called you Just Don't Understand Women. Women and Men in Conversation. And what she talks about is she says male female conversation is cross cultural communication. She uses the term genderlect and I quote, she says learning each other's way of talking is a leap across the communication gap between men and women and a giant step towards genuine understanding. You know, I think there are such fundamental differences, you know, that are reinforced in many ways, you know, through stereotypes and things like that that we're just not talking about. And it's creating, I mean, we're in a world of polarisation, aren't we? And it's just creating more and more polarisation and we need to kind of combat that by making all individuals aware. So, you know, I think there's a place for women's empowerment programmes, you know, all the women in leadership programmes, I think that's very important. But I also think it's important for organisations to be gender aware and make sure, you know, all their colleagues have an understanding of how, you know, women leaders are stereotyped and how that impacts them negatively and that sort of thing and how to kind of like appreciate the range of different approaches that, that can be in the workplace. Yeah, put it back to what you were saying there Joanne Lockwood: around the difference between men and women. You specifically mentioned around conversation and language. Having spent a good part of my life surrounded and immersed in male culture and male groups. Male language, male interests, male banter, male humour, and then crossing the fence, if you like, and spending the next part of my life almost entirely female focused in female groups and language. I can completely agree there is a difference in the whole tone of conversations and the how you support each other. I'm not saying every male conversation is about competition and alpha male and trying to prove a point. I'm not saying every female conversation is around collaboration and helping and supporting each other. There are obviously shades of grey and a spectrum there, but I do find inherently female based conversations are more inclusive, more collaborative, more supportive. Certainly in a friendship group where male conversations are all about trying to pick holes in each other and trying to get one up. I find it really difficult now to spend much time in male company because I find it so exhausting so it. Is a very different. It's completely exhausting. And I really celebrate and embrace my female identity and being in female only company because it's just. I just feel so much more at home with it. And. Yeah, and the other thing I notice is how I call it gender coded language. So I can tell if I'm with a person or with people who code me as male or code me as female by the language and how they talk to me. At the extreme is I'm sitting in a taxi and I'm getting effing and blinding and mate and football and my wife this and my wife that, that kind of laddie type conversation. Whereas if the taxi driver codes me as female, it's all right, love, how you doing? And it's a very much more relaxed, chatty sort of thing. And so I, I can, I can very easily tell the energy that's coming towards me. And so it is different and it. Is that a construct? Have we invented that or is it just the differences between the genders? It is so interesting, isn't it? So now, I don't know if you've read Christine Boston: Tanner's work, but it very much sounds like you have. They are the types of things that she talks about. And I think it's really important to be clear that according to UN figures, they say that 90% of men and women hold bias against women. So kind of, you know, what I've seen in the workplace at times is that, you know, basically, well, a woman's said that, a woman's made that claim. So it must be true. There can't be. There can't be this in it. It must be true because a woman said it about a woman, you know, and it's like, well, no, because, you know, we're in a patriarchal society and 90% of men and women hold those views about what's normal. So that's definitely not the way to judge it. But yeah, Tannen talks about exactly kind of what you've just shared. Really, like report talk versus rapport talk. So, you know, men are in conversation, they're competing for a higher status and women want connection and relationships. So it's kind of the status versus relationship, competition versus connection. And it's really interesting. So I've got plenty of examples from home and I wonder if kind of you and listeners can relate to this. But, you know, I could give you a situation where, you know, I might be kind of having my dinner with the family and my husband's talking about frustrations from his day. You know, and my response is, oh, yeah, I know. Here's the thing that happened to me, you know, so I'm trying to demonstrate how I understand what he's talking about. I've experienced it too. And his reaction to that is, you've just made it about yourself, you know, because he's thinking about status and competition. That has to be about one or two of us, and it's about me, you know, because. And, you know, he wants it to be about him because, you know, he's put that forward. Whereas to me, I'm just trying to, you know, to build that connection. That's what's important to me. And, yeah, I can. You know, the examples of that at home all the time that I notice. And it's just kind of a natural thing. I Joanne Lockwood: call that an empathy bridge. What you're trying to do is. I don't know what you're going through. I can't relate to everything, your lived experience. But what I can try and do is build empathy across this bridge to what you're saying against something I recognise. And to show connection with you, I'm repeating back in my own language, which then you think is diverting away from you. But actually it's me checking my understanding. In my own language Christine Boston: and women might do that. And I think that's kind of quite typical in communication. And that's what Tannen demonstrates. I do wonder if there's been change over time. Like I say, you know, her work's fairly dated now, it's probably news. And I do think there's a lot more awareness today that, you know, an individual's lived experience is their lived experience. And not to try and say, yeah, you know, I know exactly when you don't, because it's them. But, yeah, I think, you know, the approach in the communication and the kind of, you know, the fundamental ways that men and women communicate and react to each other, they are still very much true and kind of need to be part of the debate. I've never. I've never Joanne Lockwood: read that book or heard of that study before. So it's really interesting because I. I guess my. My perception is. My perception is completely born out of lived experience and observation. And I guess when you're a member of the club on the inside, you get a true representation of the real language and the real culture that goes on. And I've been on both clubs, but I can't now join, go back to the old club and I was never welcome in the same way in the new club. So when I'm in these situations. Now, I do have this before and after I was a member of that club. Now I'm not and I see how it is. I'm a member of this club. Well, I wasn't before and now I see how it is. It really is personal observation, just realising and being hyper aware of what's going on. I'll give you a story. I had two nights out in Brick Lane in London. For those who know, the East End of London is the bagel and curry place central for. And I was out with a group of men one night and the men were talking about a fight they'd been in, how they had their nose broken and had stitches and they're bleeding and all this sort of thing. And there was three or four men in this group all talking about their broken noses. And I was out three night, two or three nights later with a group of women in literally a hundred yards down the road in Brick Lane. And they were talking about childbirth and they were talking about stitches they'd had after childbirth and how much pain it was. I thought men were talking about their noses being broken and women were talking about their. The stitches they'd had post childbirth. And I just sort of sat there in my own little mind, chuckling inside my head, thinking, this is so surreal. Same topic, different part of the body. So, yes, we have commonality in what's important to us and how we want to share, but the motivation and the language we use is completely different. Now all women have got a childbirth Christine Boston: story. Total worriers. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it is. And so in order to change society, the constructs of how we create a gender, if we. I think what I'm hearing from you is there are fundamental differences that aren't just constructs. These are kind of our brains, the nurture versus nature. So there's a lot of nature in there as well. But if we want to change the aspirations and the way women are welcomed and embraced in the workplace, in society as a whole, it's a generational shift, isn't it? Because what frustrates me is if you talk to maybe a woman who's maybe, I don't know, let's just say in their late early teens, early teens and a man in their early teens who are thinking about their aspirations to start a family, to get married, have children, all this kind of thing, they're already starting to think about, I want a little girl because I want a little boy. And I'm already thinking about the rough, tough taking, the football type stuff. So we're Pre programming the destiny of our offspring throughout our own childhood, adolescence and creating our own aspirations for that family. So if we're going to have any way of breaking some of these stereotypes, rewriting the constructs, we've got to start training our young children today around gender equity and what gender construct is and how we can break out of these. So young boys, young girls, young non binary people to try and talk about the damage that gender stereotypes cause. Because by the time we're in our 20s, no matter how woke we are or how enlightened we are, we're having gender reveal parties. We've got blue and pink start coming out and we're starting to create aspirations of how we perceive our child is going to be based on their gender. That's the challenge we've got, isn't it? It's when we try to get right back to the point of influence, when we start to break it because we can't break it for ourselves. Once we've got it, that's it. And I don't think, you know, Christine Boston: I don't think people understand, you know, the impact that has on girls and then the women they're going to become. Women typically have lower pensions, they have less saved in their pension because they're the one that ones that have had to kind of take a hit. Things have changed. You know, we're not as kind of well supported by workplace pensions or state pensions or you know, your partner. Couples don't necessarily stay together in the way that they used to. So you know, a lot of that security is gone. And I don't think kind of, you know, we're, we're aware enough or thinking enough about the future to be able to protect children against that. I mean, yeah, stereotyping starts from very young, very, very young. And kind of from previous research work that I've done, girls and boys start to get an idea of like what are male and female roles at the age of three, by the age of three, you know, that's extremely young. And then I see in the school still and I'm shocked by kind of how stereotypes are reinforced and what's happening kind of in the playground, for example, or after school clubs. So our school has a, has a ballet club kind of for after school and they're optional things that the children can join. And so, you know, when my son came home and I knew there was an option for an after school ballet club, I said, you know, are you going to do ballet? And he said, oh, well, isn't that just for girls? You know, and I said, well, no, you know, men do ballet as well. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to do ballet, you know, you absolutely should. There's no reason why you wouldn't. But I think, you know, that's all well and good, me having a one on one conversation with my son at home, but, you know, what is the school doing to make sure the boys feel that they are welcome in that class and to challenge, you know, challenge the stereotype in the classroom and make sure that, you know, any boys that do decide to go are not going to be, you know, teased and bullied for making that decision. Then football, My son is into football and we never really expected that. I'm not sure, I don't, I kind of, I kind of did suspect I might have a boy, but I'm in a family with many, many, many girls. So it was, you know, it was quite a big thing. So I never really expected I was going to be a football mum. And you know, whilst I'll kind of allow him to do whatever he likes, you know, I also have been asking him, would you want to go to dance? Do you want to do these things? I'm trying to just encourage him to kind of be a bit more open. He went to gymnastics and things like that and just allowing him to kind of think about all his options and not be like, well, you're a boy, you have to do football and all that. But I noticed in the playground it appears that it is the boys that get the football area and the girls can play if they want to, but the boys dominate and the girls never have the opportunity to kind of take that as their space. So I just feel like the kind of, the different roles are being reinforced in school. They're certainly not being challenged. Yeah, the boys turn up with the football, it's their game, Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? They put the goalpost down, they pick the teams. That only changes when the girls have the football and they pick the teams and they put the goalposts down. So I guess like we're seeing in the women's Premier League and the women's football sport, they're trying to carve out their own identity. They're not, they're not an alternative to the men's game. They're, they're a game in their own right. Different personalities, different characters. I think that's, that's the important thing. The girls don't need to play in the boys game, they need to play, play their own game. And the boys are welcome in the Same way. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, Christine Boston: I just don't think they're given that opportunity because it's just assumed that the boys play football and the girls do this and it's like, what if we didn't make that assumption? You know, what would that look like? Or what if we said, actually, right, we're going to switch now. So if the girls want to play football and use that space, then they can have that on that day and it's up to them because the girls maybe don't want to play with the boys. And yeah, I'm so excited about the women's game in football. I find it so much more engaging. You know, never been a football fan at all, but I've been to some women's games, I watch them on the tv. I find them so much more, more enjoyable. The, you know, the women are great to watch. I love the kind of team feeling. It just got a whole different feel to it and a different culture and I've been to kind of live games and it's got a much more family feel. Yeah, I agree. I think I've come, I've been turned off by Joanne Lockwood: men's football just purely because it's all about masculine personalities, sometimes as egos and things and prima donnas. Whereas I genuinely feel that mostly when I watch women's football and other women's sports, there is very much a team all for one on one, full time, genuinely not pretending. And I think sometimes male football is all about the aggression and there's too much, I would call cheating. Going for the dive, going for the tackle. Women are quite rightly worried about their bodies and they're breaking bones and things and they don't want to go in for that hard tackle or so they're more likely to. They're going hard. I'm not saying, I'm not saying that they compromise anything, but they have a different approach to a non contact sport. They don't push the point of contact and they. It's exactly that. And I think from what I see, you know, Christine Boston: they're more collaborative, they're more cooperative even, you know, with the players from the different teams, they look after each other a little bit more, they're a bit more respectful, whereas the guys are, you know, they're dominant, they're assertive. It's just sort of all that typical gender stuff. They're focused on the competition, achievement and you know that it's typical of kind of masculine feminine culture. And I think that's a really kind of great place to see that. Difference play out. We still have. Joanne Lockwood: We talk about these glass ceilings, we talk about the concrete cliffs and the concrete cliff edges where we don't have enough women in leadership positions. And we talk about the 30% club, we talk about all these different initiatives we have in the city and other places trying to get women into senior roles. We can never quite get the momentum, can we? We're always, you know, you talked about percentages here on the Facebook board and other boards. 25%, we're not seeing enough. 60%, are we? 70%. We're not seeing that flip. What I find challenging and difficult is that when we're in a world now talking about anonymized recruitment processes as free recruitment, that's great because we're anonymizing out who you are, whatever you may be. But the challenge is, if we want to rectify a 70, 30 male female representation, we can't hire one woman for every man because that ratio will never change. We have to hire 2.5 women for every male for the next five years in order to get that from 30, 40, 50, 60 to 50%. And I think that's what organisations aren't doing enough of. And the problem, then we end up with positive discrimination the other way, which no one's in favour of either. But how, how do we create an environment then, where we are actively recruiting women in a higher ratio to offset that balance without being discriminatory to men? Christine Boston: Yeah, I think, you know, bias is a really important kind of subject to think about because whilst we have all this, you know, kind of awareness in recruitment and the, the kind of, you know, name blind, all that sort of thing, we've still got bias. There is still bias at play in, you know, the most engineered to be fair recruitment processes. You know, if you kind of look at, you know, how to get a job right now, it's sort of. You should network, you know, because if you are interviewing with people, you know, then there'll be a positive bias, you know, of some sort at play. And I think it's really interesting to consider, kind of. And I've done a piece on this about this recently about, you know, what is merit and who decides? Yes, BS of meritocracy. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: yeah, one of my, One of my topics. That one. Yeah, yeah. And, Christine Boston: you know, women and all underrepresented groups, we are, you know, really happy to kind of, you know, put ourselves down, keep these barriers in the way. You know, kind of heard somebody kind of recently saying, you know, well, you know, I don't. Well, they Were talking about Donald Trump and saying. And all his views on EDI policies, and they were saying, well, I agree with Donald Trump, actually, because I don't want to be recruited on the basis of merit. You know, I don't want to be recruited just because I'm a woman or I'm this or I'm that. But I said, well, men have been getting recruited through the golf club forever, you know, and through their networks forever. So why, you know, why are we so reluctant to have the same privileges and opportunities? Why would we do that to ourselves? But we're so like. And that idea of merit has been created by those in power to protect their own position. And, you know, we play right into that, don't we? But, yeah, you know, the stereotypes are very clear, you know, in terms of women leadership, you know, all these kind of. It's a really fine line that women leaders have to walk because there can't be too much this, there can't be too much that. You know, if women were to communicate in this same way as a man, you know, a woman leader, in the same way as a male leader, they can often be labelled negatively. Like, they're aggressive, they're controlling, and you've got all the kind of, you know, aspects that kind of. Tannen describes playing out there. Things like, you know, if a male leader was to go into a room and think it's cold, they might just say, it's cold in here. Someone close a window. A woman is more likely to come in and say, anybody feel cold? You know, didn't. Do you think we should close the window? Like, it's a choice, like she's making a suggestion, you know, but actually, you know, if you think about, you know, they're hoping that they can rely on hierarchy, that people will know, maybe suggestion about closing the window, someone will close the window. But it doesn't kind of quite happen in the same way. But, you know, if a woman comes in and says, it's cold in here, close the window. Gives it as an order or an instruction that's often not perceived well. And you have different groups. You have, you know, women leaders who kind of really hold on to their authenticity and their identity and their approach and say, I'm going to do it in my own way. And my way is, you know, compassionate, empathetic, understanding. You know, some might say softer, more gentle, you know. Yeah, in some was some women, you know, we're going to do that. Others are, you know, used to a more masculine culture and think, I've got to Be like that to be successful, you know, and kind of that's what we're fighting against, really. I heard Rose Joanne Lockwood: Ailing Ellis on, I think it was BBC Radio 2 the other morning, and there was something she said which cut right into me and I thought, wow, wow. And she said, I have a sign interpreter here for you because I know you and many of you don't use sign language, can't speak sign language. So my interpreter's there for you, not for me. They're there for you because you don't speak sign language. I thought, wow, what empowerment and ownership of that situation. And I thought that was incredible. And what made me think of that is what listen to you. Because in order for women to succeed, often they're told they need to be more like men to overcome the biases. When you speak, you don't end the sentence in an uptick. You have to go land it down to sound more authoritative. Otherwise it sounds like a question and uncertainty. That's a bias, that in the way you speak. I hear that uptick. I think it's a question, not a statement. In order for women to be taken more seriously, we're saying you have to speak more like a man. Actually, what we should be saying is we need to be speaking. We need to be learning how to listen better and not making an assumption based on what we hear. In the same way that Rose Ellis Ailing Ellis is the science interpreter's for you, not for me. And mine was going, hang on a minute, I thought it's for you. It's not. It is for me. You can speak perfectly happily with sign language. I can't. Wow. So it's about reframing those views and allowing people to succeed for who they are, not to comply with someone else's definition of what credible is. And I made a decision not to retrain my voice because to make other people feel comfortable with my voice. So I've chosen to keep it because it's my voice. And if you've got a problem with it, that's your problem, not mine. So I think we need to be able to challenge this bs, the meritocracy of what is valuable, what succeeds. That's the challenge that we as women have to face, is to get people to say, you're good enough, you're fabulous, you're wonderful, actually. Yeah, yeah, perfectly wonderful in your way. Christine Boston: You know, you don't have to try to be something else because, you know, it's about performance and results. But the aware, you know, the awareness is absolutely fundamental, isn't it? Because otherwise you're just placing judgement on thing, on something you think is right and no one's ever challenged a question. You know, again, like the whole idea of merit. If you think like merit is a thing that's kind of, you know, you have it or you don't, then you're gonna probably, you know, you're going to make one assumption. If you are aware that merit is something that is defined by somebody, it's a decision that gets made, then it's totally different, isn't it? I mean, I used to, I kind of noticed, you know, with my teams that we were kind of recruiting the same. And what I said to them was, well, first, first of all, you know, can you look at the questions in the process and think about how do you make this a level playing field? Because, you know, we don't want to advantage somebody who's internal, for example, or already in the sector, because do we actually need that, you know, or how can we kind of look at kind of, you know, just, yeah, create that level playing field so everyone's got, you know, starting from the same place and got the same opportunity. And also I'd say to them we need to look for culture add, not culture fit. And I think that changes your bias when you come into that recruitment decision. And then of course, it's all the other things, like having diverse panel, you know, as far as you possibly can, making sure it's not all kind of. Yeah, well, I'd say more than two types because, you know, typically you'll have male, female, but actually how can you diversify even more than that on your panel? Because that's, that's what you want to be doing, really. But yeah, kind of women are having to kind of work in this really awkward and difficult situation, figure out like, who they are, who do they have to be? Do they have to be that, you know, all the time? They're facing a range of different, other, different barriers at home. Like the barriers in relation to the reproduction of life. Like all sorts of things that women might be going through around trying to conceive or maybe pregnancy loss, which is hugely played down. So, you know, kind of society sort of tells you that that's, you know, that's nothing and you just should be carrying on because that's not really a thing. But actually, psychologically it's very impactful. Pregnancy and maternity discrimination, you know, whether you think you're thinking you have a baby or not, it really doesn't matter. Like employers, if you're a woman of a certain age are still discriminating against kind of women in that group. I've got, I've got a story about that. I was working in an Joanne Lockwood: organisation and two or three of my male colleagues in a meeting said we should do a sweepstake. Our colleague Helen has just got engaged. How quickly before, when she's going to get married, who's going to guess how quickly she'll get married? And then it was, how quickly after she was married would she fall pregnant? And that was a sweepstake, a serious sweepstake. And they all went, oh, yeah, I'll put a quid on August and I'll put a quid on next February for being pregnant. And that's still the perception that a woman can't get married, can't get engaged or can't have their own family life without people judging what that means. Men would be, yeah, great, we have a stag weekend and it'll be all kind of SAP each other on the back without any expectation that that person is going to want to be an active part of their family. And that breaks, you know, you then that, that was very gender stereotype there. You know, we have female, female couples, we have male, male couples, non binary, non binary couples and a whole mix of different permutations in relationships. Men are being judged as workers, women are being judged as homemakers and we need to break that barrier down and make it acceptable both ways. Christine Boston: Absolutely. So, yeah, I remember, you know, I was going for a new role just before I got married and I was saying, well, you know, I was wondering to myself, and I was asking other people, do you think I should take my engagement ring off? Because are they going to, you know, judge me based on that? Would that disadvantage me wearing an engagement ring? And then, you know, I had one conversation with someone who said, well, you know, if that happens, it's not the right workplace for you. And I thought, yeah, so kept the ring on, got the job and that was great and they were a fantastic employer. But there's so much like that. And it's really clear in my household because like I say, you know, we're, we're very equal. And throughout my career, you know, I campaigned for shared parental leave. And so, you know, it was only right that we made the most of that and it worked for our financial situation. So I went back to work after our baby was five months old. My husband had three months off full time. And before I, before I had the baby, people were saying to me, oh, will you give up work? You know, when the baby Comes, will you give up work? And I was absolutely horrified, you know, thinking, why on earth would I do that? You know, I've worked really hard to get where I am, why would I give up work? And then they'll say, so I'd just say to them that, you know, you know, not, not planning on doing that. I'm expecting to still go back full time because, I mean, you know, in my bit of an occupational hazard, but very aware of the motherhood penalty, so I was going to try and resist that as far as possible. So. And then, yeah, baby came, you know, as I thought, wanted to go back to work. So I went back quite early and yes, my husband was off full time and I said to him one morning, and I don't know why now, it was a morning that seems, seems a funny time to have this conversation, but I was getting ready for work, ready to leave the house, he was sorting out the baby, ready for the day. And I said to him, has anybody asked you if you're going back part time? And he said, no, no one, not a single person had asked him that, even though he's off three months full time, you know, on shared parental leave. And I said, I must have been asked about 20 times, are you coming back part time? Because that's just an assumption that gets made, you know, despite the fact if I did that, I'd be losing my salary, I'd be losing my pension, I'd probably be having to do the same job. I mean, I was that, that's typical anyway for all women. But I was a director, you know, job that's got to be done. I'm running, you know, the organisation in Wales, I have to get this job done and I can't just say, I'm not gonna do that bit, you know, but I'm gonna kind of flex my hours in this way. So, yeah, and it has serious financial penalties for women. And that is the problem as well. Joanne Lockwood: You have part time hours and part time money, but full time responsibility. So you still end up cramming your 40 hours into 32 or into 28 or something. And again, that's the penalty that many women, they feel they have to do that to meet the expectations of not being a slacker, not being, you know, being committed. It's very difficult to just sort of say, oh, it's 4:30, pick the kids up from school, I'm off now, bye. In many environments, I also recognise there are many organisations because I go into organisations to provide training courses and are very conscious about the fact what time do you want the day to end? And quite often they'll say, well, we need to wrap it up by 3:30 because some people have got childcare and they need to go off and collect their kids and things. I said, absolutely fantastic. And I now almost schedule the courses 10 till 3:30 deliberately so people got time to come in and they've got time to leave at the end. Whereas if you go for the old style, nine o' clock till five, that doesn't work for everybody. Does Christine Boston: doesn't. And I think, you know, one of my concerns at the minute is about this, you know, push to return people to the office because homeworking is really beneficial for many. You know, anyone with caring responsibilities, people with disabilities and returning to the office is going to have a negative impact on them. And kind of I've heard senior leaders saying, well, you know, they can just arrive late and leave early. Well, are you going to pay them for that or do you expect them to take a pay cut? And I suspect, you know, it'll be a reduction in pay as well. And what I really believe in and what I'm promoting is a different approach to performance management that's about results, not time. Because that just allows people to work flexibly as they need to to get the work done. And as long as they're actually delivering what is required and that's less to do with outputs. Because I always kind of used to say, you know, my colleagues would be saying, written so many reports, well, that's great, but if they're sitting on the shelf making no difference at all and not being read, then that was, to be honest, a waste of time. So really thinking about, right, what do you need that individual to achieve and what's fair for the amount of time that you're paying them or, you know, for the amount of money you're paying them and managing in that way instead and really looking at did that person deliver what we pay them to do or not? You mentioned earlier about it. Well, I think Joanne Lockwood: you mentioned Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. We talked about the impact of that in certain parts of the world. I feel that there's almost this potential for that dystopia to come to fruition in some parts. Especially if you drew a map of Gilead and laid it over the US and it's kind of the central belt, the central block of the US Is Gilead in that story. California, New York and the coastal areas are kind of the old US if you like, affiliated to Canada. So we're Seeing abortion rights pulled back, we're seeing trans rights, we're seeing queer rights, gay rights, necks on the cards, we're seeing these pure Christian values coming back into play. Could that happen in Europe? Could that happen in the uk? Believe anything. And, you Christine Boston: know, now after I've kind of had so many things happen where I thought that would never happen, you know, like the pandemic, Brexit, all this sort of stuff. So now I can believe anything. Yeah, it's, you know, back to the polarisation, isn't it, and the kind of Andrew Tate movement and how social media is allowing these extreme messages to reach people and how it's influencing their view of the world and. And what they think is right and wrong and it influences their behaviour and their attitudes. So, yeah, I, you know, I. I could. I can believe, you know, that it could happen. I don't want to believe it and I'll work really hard to make sure it doesn't. But, yeah, we should all be concerned about that, I think. Do you think men Joanne Lockwood: should have their hormones tested to see if they've got too much testosterone in their bloodstream that might give them an unfair advantage against other men? It's really interesting you say that Christine Boston: because, actually, I think that, you know, it just opens a really interesting avenue into menopause treatment for women because the, you know, I believe more women should be prescribed testosterone. There's a great reluctance. There isn't like a product on the market for females, so women who are being given testosterone, and that includes myself, are having to use products that are for men and just sort of do their best, make the best of it. There are private products. I think there's something in Australia that is for a female market. And, yeah, there's a real reluctance to give women testosterone. But I can tell you that, you know, a perimenopause symptom is sort of anxiety reduction in self esteem, you know, lower self confidence. There's a lot of kind of psychological impacts of perimenopause that are often, you know, not properly diagnosed by gps, are not treated in the right way. And I was. Was lucky to be able to go and see a private specialist who put me on testosterone. And it's been transformational. I just wish, and I can't imagine that I could have enough to have as much as Donald Trump, for example. And I look at that and think, what would it take to have that amount of, you know, testosterone and confidence? And surely I must be able to have that because I've got a whole packet upstairs. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a Joanne Lockwood: medic by any shift of the imagination or endocrinologist, but my understanding is that oestrogen in the female body converts to testosterone and women will have a testosterone level, whatever the units are, of around 1 to 4% of whatever, or nanomoles or whatever this ratio is. Men tend to have 20 plus to 40 odd nanomoles. Both bodies are designed to run with testosterone lubrication in different amounts. And you're right, when perimenopause and menopause post menopausal women, because they haven't got so much oestrogen in their system, then they can't convert that to testosterone. So microdosing, testo gel, or whatever the gel is you can put on is gonna be a benefit. But what I've learned through my wife is that there's almost a reluctance to hormone profile CIS women because they say it makes no sense because we don't know what that means. And I think, well, if you've never got a baseline, you're never going to know what it means. But what you could say is statistically this person has a lower oestrogen, a lower testosterone, lower progesterone. Therefore statistically, they're more likely to be having anxiety, heat flashes, itchy skin, brain fog, all the kind of menopausal symptoms statistically. And if we add a little bit of HRT gel, a bit of bit of testosterone, as you say, then we could, we can then observe the change. But no one's doing that observation. They're not saying, let's try a bit, let's try it. Whereas I, I get, I get my hormone profile taken every year to make sure that my levels are correct. Why me? Why isn't every woman, every man getting hormone profile testing just to create these baselines to be able to understand society, the effect of these hormones, because they affect your brain, they affect your mood, they affect your reaction to stimulus, everything, those three, testosterone, progesterone and oestrogen, with a bit of prolactin, the other hormones, have a huge impact on your health and wellbeing. Exactly. And think of the impact on women's Christine Boston: careers because it's that age group that are most likely to be in leadership roles. And there are also most likely or more likely, you know, to have increased care and responsibilities. And women are having children later and they're also, you know, having to care for adults. So I think you've got, you know, a cohort of women who are kind of stuck in that 40s age group that have Got children, old parents, perimenopause to win a leadership role. You know, something gives in the end. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and, and being right in the middle of that sandwich generation ourselves, you know, we've got elderly parents, we've, over the last two years we've dealt with hospitalisation, nursing homes, engaging with social services, old people's mental health services. All the things that you think, blimey, there's no, there's no, there's no handbook on this. You know, when you're, when you're starting your family, it's antenatal classes, everyone's kind of helping you out how to have a baby. It's kind of in your brain about that nurture side of looking after your family. But suddenly you get to your mid to late 50s and suddenly you've got this adult child with new responsibilities and no one helps you. Social services aren't any good, hospitals aren't any good. They want to treat the physical, they don't want to treat the emotional or the mental. And you soon learn that you're woefully inequipped to be a later life carer for elderly parents or elderly relatives. And imagine if you Christine Boston: are, you know, a working woman trying to, you know, manage everything. I am, I am a working woman and Joanne Lockwood: I, I do, I do, yeah, I do have to do that. Yeah. And it's. Christine Boston: Well, of course, I'm just thinking kind of for listeners, you know, thinking about that and like all the, you know, the kind of pile up of challenges that are, you know, not well supported, you know, women often, well, typically not getting adequate medical care for women's health matters, not getting, you know, finding very difficult to navigate adult social care pay in. I mean, at its worst, our childcare bill was twice our mortgage. You know, so sort of having to grapple with all of these things whilst pretending that, you know, there's nothing to see here and contributing, you know, in the workplace like you're an equal, you know, it's not easy. No, my wife and I, we, we both Joanne Lockwood: talked about this many times where both our parents are similar ages, both are going through that stage and we've, we've said to each other that we could not have coped had we been working for an employer. We only had the flexibility and the ability to be able to react and care and deal with because we were self employed working together. We both reflect on that. But we have a luxury that most of the population don't have. They work for somebody else. They have to be accountable for their time and being There. And you don't want to say, sorry, I can't today, or actually, my, My elderly father's had a fall and I've had to wait half the night for an ambulance. The ambulance only got here half an hour ago. I need to go to bed. I'm sorry, I can't come in today. And that's random, isn't it? You've got no choice about nobody else to deal with it. You just got to pick up that situation. And so the childcare aspect, again, you can't say to your child, sorry, don't throw up this morning because I've got a big meeting to do, deliver a project today. I'm sorry, you got a temperature? What do I do? So we create that stress, don't we? And again, we talk about things like psychological safety in the workplace. You need to be able to talk about this challenges in your life, otherwise you're just going to bottle it up. That's when you get burnout, stress, anxiety, all those other things creeping. Exactly. And it's still typical that, you know, Christine Boston: I had an example recently where, you know, there was a, you know, a friend kind of had a child off sick and so her husband kind of rang up the employer and said, I need to take the day off work, my child's off sick. And the employer said, well, can't your wife do it? You know, it's really typical and still of you today. Yeah. And we do have these, these gendered expectations. And Joanne Lockwood: that's, that's, I think, what I said earlier. We've got to try and train our younger adults, our younger children to start breaking this now because once they become ingrained, it's really hard to, to rock that boat. So if you're, if you're listening to this and you've got a young person who's under 10 years old, now is the time to empower them both, not just the girls, but empower the boys as well, to break this BS of construct of gender. And that's kind of like another really good Christine Boston: reason why I love women's football so much. I love that, you know, my son is watching women's football and, you know, they are role models for him. And so he's growing up with, you know, different views. And I'm really interested to see what these kind of, you know, younger generations coming through, what their attitudes are going to be and how they might shape equality in the workplace going forward. Fingers crossed. Christine, it's been absolutely Joanne Lockwood: fantastic. We've been yakking away now for over an hour. And how do people get hold of you? How do people find out more? Well, you can Christine Boston: Visit the website threeminuteleadership.com and there's lots of good content, articles, resources around leadership, culture and inclusion that they can access there or. I am Christine Boston on LinkedIn. Excellent. And I found you because I. That's what I Joanne Lockwood: worked out, that we connected back in 2018. So, yeah. Christine, thank you so much for your time. And if you're listening to this. Yeah. I'm sure you found this useful as well, so thank you very much. Brilliant. Christine Boston: Thank you. It was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I kind of, you know, covered everything that I was hoping to get to. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.