---
title: "Belonging Across Borders"
episode: 171
date: 2025-08-14
guest: "Mina Sharif"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/171-belonging-across-borders
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-171/audio.mp3
---

# Belonging Across Borders

Joanne Lockwood is joined by writer and media producer Mina Sharif to explore what belonging looks like when your life spans countries, cultures and competing narratives. Mina reflects on being born in Afghanistan, raised in Canada as part of a refugee family, returning to Afghanistan as an adult for 15 years, and then resettling back in Canada. Through her story, the episode examines how identity can feel fragmented—and how it can also become a strength when you learn to hold multiple worlds at once. They discuss the limits of media-led perceptions of Afghanistan, and the importance of approaching gaps in understanding with compassion rather than defensiveness. Mina shares how displacement can carry grief, loss of status, and pressure to perform gratitude, and why creating space for trauma, healing and dignity is essential for newcomers—especially young people—to integrate in healthy ways. The conversation moves from personal experience into practical human connection: asking better questions, resisting broad categorisations, avoiding saviourism, and seeing displaced people as capable individuals with agency, skills and complex lives. Mina also talks about her work in educational media in Afghanistan, her workshops with service providers, and how storytelling and fiction can open a fuller window into everyday life beyond headlines.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Between Worlds: An Afghan-Canadian Journey
- 03:28 — Between Two Worlds: An Observer's Journey
- 08:40 — Compassionate Understanding of Afghanistan
- 12:37 — Afghan Women's Historical Empowerment Journey
- 15:51 — Foreign Influence in Afghanistan's Plight
- 18:31 — Superpowers' Human Rights Pretence
- 21:02 — Afghanistan Crisis: Long-term Support Strategies
- 23:52 — Navigating First-Generation Challenges
- 28:34 — Enhanced Compassion for Refugee Support
- 30:54 — Exploring Identity and Cultural Integration
- 34:16 — Seeking Varied Conversations, Not Conformity
- 36:51 — Cultural Understanding Requires Mutual Effort
- 39:26 — Avoiding Patronising Benevolence
- 44:14 — Understanding Afghanistan Through Personal Stories
- 49:11 — Multi-Layered Identity Struggles
- 50:57 — Changing Perceptions Through Storytelling
- 55:26 — Letting Go of Zero-Sum Thinking
- 57:38 — Website Promoting Afghan Stories
- 01:00:07 — Building Inclusivity, Episode by Episode

## Key takeaways

- The complexities of dual identity for those straddling cultures and how embracing both can be a source of strength rather than isolation.
- Approaches to overcoming negative media stereotypes and encouraging curiosity about the lived realities of less familiar cultures.
- Practical guidance for host communities and service providers in supporting refugees and newcomers, including the importance of trauma-informed empathy.
- The danger of “saviourism” and patronising assumptions, and strategies to avoid these pitfalls when offering support.
- The lasting impact of loss, grief, and resilience for individuals forced to restart their lives in new countries, and why space for healing is crucial.
- The difference between symbolic inclusion and genuine grassroots engagement, and how institutions and individuals can bridge this gap.
- Why meaningful belonging demands mutual questioning, vulnerability, and a willingness to move past surface-level understanding in pursuit of personal connection.

## FAQs

### Who is Mina Sharif and what is her background?

Mina Sharif is a writer, media producer, and advocate for intercultural understanding. Born in Afghanistan and raised in Canada as a refugee, Mina has spent considerable time rebuilding communities in Afghanistan and now resides in Toronto. Her journey bridges two worlds, strongly influencing her passion for cultural connection, storytelling, and amplifying the voices of those “caught between worlds.”

### What does ‘belonging across borders’ mean in the context of this episode?

Belonging across borders refers to the experience of individuals living between cultures — often shaped by exile, migration, or dual heritage. Mina explores how navigating multiple identities can be both challenging and empowering, encouraging recognition of this state as a unique position that can foster greater empathy and bridge cultural divides, rather than seeing it solely as a loss or dilution of identity.

### How does living between cultures affect one’s identity?

The podcast highlights that identity for people living between cultures is complex and often in flux. Mina explains that such individuals may never feel complete belonging in either their country of origin or their new home. Rather than viewing this as a deficit, the episode suggests embracing it as a distinctive strength and an opportunity for cultural enrichment, both personally and within their communities.

### How should host communities support newcomers, especially refugees?

Support goes beyond administrative assistance. Mina advocates for service providers and local communities to show extra compassion to refugees, acknowledging the trauma, loss, and disconnection many experience. This includes providing emotional support, fostering environments of genuine welcome, and recognising the importance of addressing mental health and identity, especially amongst young people forced to adapt to new realities.

### What are common misconceptions about Afghanistan discussed in the episode?

The episode confronts prevalent media-driven stereotypes about Afghanistan, such as the association with conflict and oppression. Mina stresses that such images do not represent the everyday lives, aspirations, or cultural richness of Afghan people. She calls for compassionate understanding, both for non-Afghans and members of the Afghan diaspora who may internalise or only know their homeland through such limited narratives.

### How do Afghans and host societies navigate cultural expression and integration?

Canada is cited as an example of a society aiming for a ‘mosaic’ model rather than a ‘melting pot,’ symbolising the value placed on cultural diversity. However, Mina notes that systematic celebration of cultures is not sufficient without active learning, curiosity, and grassroots connections between individuals. True integration thrives when all parties are willing to share, learn, and ask questions with genuine respect.

## Transcript

Mina Sharif: Foreign.

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 171 with the title Belonging Across Borders. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Mina Sharif. Mina is a writer, media producer and passionate advocate for building bridges between cultures through storytelling and empowerment. And when I asked Mina to describe her superpower, she said that it is seeing the unseen and amplifying voices caught between worlds. Hello, Mina. Welcome to the show.

Mina Sharif: Hello, Joanne. Thank you for having me here. I'm writing,

Joanne Lockwood: saying you're based in Canada, is that right, somewhere?

Mina Sharif: That's right. I'm in Toronto, Canada, where I. Where I was raised as well and where I returned to in 2019.

Joanne Lockwood: And you've just got a new Prime Minister.

Mina Sharif: Yeah, we're hopeful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, remaining hopeful is all anyone can do politically. Former governor of the bank of England, Mark Carney, isn't

Joanne Lockwood: it? His economic background is quite welcome all the time. So us Brits know of him very well. We used to see him on the news regularly over here. So. Yeah. Well, good luck. Yeah, it's good luck. Thank you. Mina, your journey spans two worlds. So you grew up in Canada, as you just said, but you've also built communities in Afghanistan. So how's that kind of experience shaped your passion for creating culture and connection and belonging across culture? Yeah, it's a wonderful question.

Mina Sharif: Thank you. I think my entire life might have been shaped by that experience or by how I arrived between these two worlds and that bridge that I live on. I was born in Afghanistan and I was raised in Canada. My family were refugees in exile, as many, many Afghans are all around the world. And I did not grow up necessarily assuming that I would have a personal and direct connection to Afghanistan. The country itself was Always really behind the headlines of war. And when I was growing up in Canada and as a child, I did not necessarily have any problem with my identity or any feeling of lacking. But in 2005 I was able to go back to Afghanistan, initially as a volunteer, and I ended up staying for 15 years. And when that happened, I became someone who had a childhood in Canada that shaped me and now a good chunk of my adulthood that was shaping me further. And I somehow realised that I kind of live now between both worlds, neither fully in the Canadian sort of childhood that I had been brought up with, not necessarily fully connected anymore, and neither was I fully connected to Afghanistan. And the way that people had been born and raised there might have felt. I felt that I was now in the role of observer. Whether I was in Canada as a, you know, someone with an Afghan background or whether I was in Afghanistan with someone as a Canadian raised background. It really offered me a lot of opportunity to see disconnects and to see where we could connect in ways that we aren't. And that's really just shaped the path of, of many projects I've done and that I want to do in my life. So I've spoken to many people over the years and

Joanne Lockwood: when you are living somewhere outside of your birth community, all those, all those roots or that heritage, sometimes your own sense of culture becomes diluted by the new culture. How long does it take you to become kind of bridged in that sort of security about who you were and your heritage versus trying to also embrace the Canadian lifestyle as well? Right. Well, I think

Mina Sharif: that's going to differ for different generations. Right. It would really depend on how much lived experience you have in your, in your country of origin to begin with. Myself, along with many others, including in the UK and all around the world, many of us have grown up without any access to the country that we're originally from. And so we're really kind of creating our identity within, with bits and pieces, whether it's the example of Afghanistan is. Is going to include headlines as part of how we piece together who we are. War headlines. It's going to be stories that our parents share with us, it's going to be language and food and music. But it's. And I, I had that. And I felt connected to who, you know, my background, what my background was. And I think once I moved to Afghanistan, I. That's when I realised, wow, there's actually a lot missing when, when you're trying to piece it together on your own. I think a conclusion that I'm arriving at now is that we're not ever going to be able to have the same connection as maybe our parents had or that people that live in Afghanistan have to that identity. Nor are we going to have a fully like I belong here kind of feeling that a lot of times people in our host country can have. And what I'd like to see is that we, instead of falling into victimhood or anger about it, find a way to recognise that it's almost a new category and that we are maybe blessed to be part of more than one world rather than ostracised from whatever world we're sitting in.

Joanne Lockwood: So you're enriching the environment you're now in with all of the heritage and family and culture that you bring with you. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. So what, what inspired you to go back after all those years? That's a

Mina Sharif: great question, I think. And I think that also has a lot to do with how my experience may have differed from others. And I think the great part about it is I never planned to go back. And sometimes when things happen as a surprise, that way it you manage your expectations, you're not coming in with preconceived notions that others might have had. If I had been dreaming of going back my whole life, I would have had, you know, an entire upbringing of hopes and expectations going in. I didn't, I went in really with some ingrained stereotypes. I went in with the expectation that I truly expectation that I wouldn't be welcomed as much as I ended up being welcomed. And because of that, I think a lot of my, a lot of my experience was surprisingly positive. And maybe that's why I was able to sort of maintain that and see that wait, maybe this dual identity and dual experience is a superpower and not the worst thing that could happen to someone. Maybe we have an opportunity to really be a bridge between two worlds because we are part of two worlds. I suppose my, my perception of

Joanne Lockwood: Afghanistan is, is extremely limited. Probably similar to yours before you went back. I know of it like many do, because of the troubles, because of the wars, either the American influence, the Russian influence, Taliban or various other bodies there. And most of my, I kind of, if I had to picture Afghanistan with my eyes closed, I would see a very rocky, mountainous desert type place with men with Kalashnikov rifles running around in very sandy sort of environments, presumably. And I'm sure that I'm completely missing the real, real day to day Afghanistan. You know, the towns, the cities, the people. But that's the media Bias I have. That's the pictures I see all the time.

Mina Sharif: Absolutely. And, and I think this is where a word that I bring up a lot comes in compassion. I think that it is the responsibility of those of us who want you to see Afghanistan more broadly to understand with some compassion that that's the image that you were given and that that's not a decision you made to think that of Afghanistan you didn't decide. I want to just picture Sandy, you know, dry desert and guns and men. That's what you were given. So I really approach it now in a different way than I might have before where, you know, in my younger years I might have been defensive of. Why. Why would you only think that of where I'm from when it's so different? And, and I think the time has done this for me and really just reassessing. If I want to be positive about where I'm from and the reality of how beautiful it is, then I have to remember that I came in with without knowing that how am I to expect that anyone else should know it organically? And that includes people who are of Afghan origin. It's not a message that I direct just at those who may not know much about the country. Our own, I would say Afghans in exile, the diaspora, however we want to. To label them, they've also had a limited access. I also myself had a limited access. So I really like to realise that fair enough, that's all you saw. That's. And that's not on you. And absolutely. It does not reflect the day to day life. It doesn't reflect the day to day communities. It doesn't reflect the beauty or the positivity or the. You know, resilience is a word I don't really love, but you also see it from a place of Afghans are victims of war. But no, resilience is also maintaining who you are and maintaining the strength of your culture despite the war. And that's hard to see from what, you know, we've got access to because. In that, in that region of the world there's lots of countries

Joanne Lockwood: with the kind of the stan ends, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan. There's lots of. That's kind of that region where you want a bigger nation that's split into various countries or we all very virulently independent. Afghanistan

Mina Sharif: itself has a history that's over 5,000 years old. So there were empires that you could define if you go far back enough. But I think that's to be said for any part of the world. The word stand just Means land of. So it's, you know, when the UK had a strong role in creating the Pakistan, for example, it was using the language that was similar to existing countries in the region. I've learned something now. So Kurdistan,

Joanne Lockwood: land of the Kurds. Afghanistan, land of the Afghans. Wow. I can feel completely educated now.

Mina Sharif: Well, let's not go too deep into the historical facts, because it's not my. It's not necessarily my forte, but, yeah, just organically I learn as I'm part of it. So Afghanistan, over the

Joanne Lockwood: last, As I say, 50, 60 years, has gone through a cultural evolution and then due to various troubles and wars and regimes, it's gone in and out of freedoms for women, for girls. And we're currently living in a time where a lot of the freedoms that women and girls have experienced for almost. Almost a generation have almost been taken away overnight. And that must be quite heartbreaking for you. Yeah,

Mina Sharif: it's devastating because for many reasons, it's devastating. One, that it's a complete violation of their very basic right. Two, that it's being, I think, labelled as some decision made by the community itself, which is not true. It's an imposed violation of their rights. It's also being, I think, oftentimes labelled as part of our culture, which it's not. And history proves that for me. I don't need to just. I don't need to just stomp my feet and say, that's not who we are. Our history will show you that we had women in high positions of political power and ministers and a very good representation in society, oftentimes before the west did the right to vote very early. So, you know, the history can show you that our community supports women in society when the atmosphere allows for it, when security allows for it. War has always impacted women first and foremost in loss of rights. And Afghanistan, unfortunately, I wish it was even only 50, 60 years, we were going back a hundred more of instability. We have pockets that we've had of, I would call it, breathing space for Afghan society, when and which has never meant that we were fully free and able to sort of rebuild and be who we want to be. But let's say pockets of security. When women could come out and attempt to re. Rebuild, rejoin society, those were in pockets. So when you look at pockets, you can look at it as the potential or you can look at it as, oh, they were just influenced by what. But that's not true, because no matter who was attempting to control Afghanistan, when there was a bit of security, women were out. And now that we don't even have any security. Women are still out there demanding that they be heard and seen and given their, given their rights. Despite all the danger and lack of support, they're still out protesting. Are they being heard at all though?

Joanne Lockwood: Are they making any difference at all or are they the men in society that are basically drowning them out? Well,

Mina Sharif: the men in society are either part of the oppressed community that they are and who. I, you know, I think we need to understand that there's a difference between who is oppressing Afghanistan from sort of that political space and, and the community itself. The community itself includes men who are defending women. It includes men who want, you know, their wives and sisters and daughters in school who, you know. So it's not really that. I don't think it's as necessarily nuanced as some people want to make it. At the end of the day, it's the laws and decrees coming in from the Taliban that are holding women in the position that they are society wise. That's not where it's coming from solely, absolutely at all. How were the.

Joanne Lockwood: I can ask this question. I'm not sure I know it's the right question, but how were the Taliban allowed to get this control over the, over the region? How did that, how are they allowed? Because people must have seen it coming. You said they weren't voted and

Mina Sharif: I can tell you that people and the communities, for the most part, I can't speak for everyone, no one can ever speak for everyone, but travelled to a lot of the provinces of Afghanistan. There are 34, I've been to 30. A lot of Afghans who are born and raised in Afghanistan haven't seen as much of the country as I have or spoken to as many new women in different. Women and families in different parts of the country and different, with different livelihoods. And they feared the return of Taliban the entire time because it meant. They knew what it meant. They knew that it was. That they wouldn't have changed and that they would be oppressive as they had been in the past. It's also worth. We're not going to, you know, hopefully go too, too deep into politics and how we got here. But it is worth noting that the Taliban and their ideology is foreign to Afghanistan. They were not even schooled in Afghanistan, so we'll leave it at that. It is not something welcome and they have not been voted in and how did they get there? Also includes the role of Afghanistan's own unfortunately quite corrupt government and it also very much includes the many, many countries that came into Afghanistan under the guise of saviorism and said, we're here to liberate the women of Afghanistan and we're here to fight terrorism. And then suddenly changed their mind and decided none of that was important overnight and left. So there's a lot of, I think, hands involved in how we got here. Unfortunately, it's not just straightforward. It's this guy's fault how we got to this level of a person. It's just everybody's in a sense, really. It was a quite a messy, messy buildup.

Joanne Lockwood: See, I'm assuming you must have many friends still there living under this rule. Are you able to communicate with them or is their communication shut down? No, in this day and age, we

Mina Sharif: have the Internet, we have the phone. It's not. They're not. Yeah, no, they've got the means to communicate. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: no, sorry. I wasn't suggesting that they were suddenly some backwards society, but I was wondering what controls were in place. Internet restrictions. Are women allowed to use technology? I don't know how it works in the household. I mean, out in the street, I guess there's enforcement. But inside households, is it a fairly free regime? Well, a regime

Mina Sharif: is separate from a household. A household makes its own decisions, and the regime are the decrees that are being imposed from. From higher, you know, levels of power. Those are two separate things. So what they decide for you is a decree, and it's a law. And it may represent how you have to present outside of your home. It is not reflective of decisions that people make in their home. It never has been. Okay, so most people are allowed to carry on

Joanne Lockwood: their home life and their private lives outside the gaze, if you like, of the people in the street with the freedom to epiphone.

Mina Sharif: I don't. I wouldn't phrase it that way. I would say that women are confined to the homes, and I wouldn't assume that their own family is saying, we don't want you reading a book. So, you know, they're potentially reading a book in the house, but no, outside of the home. The decrees are not in their favour. I kind of imagine that the

Joanne Lockwood: government, if you like, would shut down Internet communications, television broadcasts, and control it, I.

Mina Sharif: Think might have goals like that. But the decrees don't work overnight. And you have to remember that people, other countries, like the uk, like Canada, like the US For a. For a moment there was, I think I use the word pretending, pretending to monitor them, pretending to care about their violation of human rights. From the UN to the, you know, superpowers of the world, they might Be putting on a show here and there in how slow things move. But they're, they're playful. Their decrees are announced on a regular basis. I believe today they announced that women are not to be on radio anymore. Initially it was women and men shouldn't be on radio together, and now it's women gone altogether. Wouldn't. I would be open to being corrected on that, because I just saw that today. But the list is. Is horrendously long of things that they have announced. But announced is different than imposed. But you still don't want to live in a country where the law says you're not allowed to go to school, the law says you're not allowed to be in a park because they can enforce their laws. They do. Yeah. It's. I have no point of reference to understand how

Joanne Lockwood: or why people think this way. And it's, It's a, It's a really. I'm sure many of the people listen to this, don't understand how, how you can oppress somebody so greatly.

Mina Sharif: Ask this when we're thinking about what is a cult? What does a cult do? How is a cult reach the point where they're a cult and they are oppressing their own members and they're oppressing and they want the entire society to live like them. It's not different.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes, I hear you, and you're right. I. I guess I've never lived in that sort of environment where my fundamental right to walk down the street is being questioned. Okay. As a, As a trans woman, I feel that there's some people out there that probably want that of me, you know, to hide me, to erase me and to, to eradicate me. But law

Mina Sharif: protects you. Yeah, the law in the UK certainly

Joanne Lockwood: does. I mean, the law in some other countries probably wouldn't, but yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's even worse when the law actively legislates against you is the issue, isn't it? And that's. That's what we're seeing in Afghanistan right now with the women. It's a great way to put it.

Mina Sharif: Absolutely. Yeah. Where you think they were there to protect you, they're actually there

Joanne Lockwood: to do you the harm. And, yeah, it's extremely sad. And I don't want to spend the entire episode just talking about that, because I know you're a bigger person than just an Afghani or a person with Afghani history and spending many years there. So what does excite you these days? I would say that after Afghanistan fell

Mina Sharif: to Taliban, just, you know, to segue from it, it was, was in kind of what I would describe as an emergency state. You know, trying imagining that they're only gonna last six months. But we've gotta help the people that are there and the people who are in immediate danger. And in my case life right now, I think I'm just, we're now almost at four years and I'm, I'm just grounding into what do I do with this and what do I do when I look at this as long term, as potentially long term. How do we continue to support, continue to recognise emergencies when they are emergencies. But what does it look like for me to better spaces of understanding both of Afghanistan like we're having in this conversation today of Afghanistan society, of Afghanistan's women also just, you know, supporting people in the healing that has to happen when they've, they're now in exile or when people are meeting an Afghan who is newly in exile. How do we, you know, support that connection? How do we continue to support the, how do we continue to support how people have looked at Afghanistan? You know, from before the Taliban to after the Taliban? It doesn't matter. We've always had that label of war torn country. And that's not something that I can even put on the Taliban alone. That's something that I put on lack of information and lack of curiosity and lack of sharing of information. So that's, that's where I'm more focused now because that's something tangible that I can make a difference to and I can't change who's in power in Afghanistan and I, I don't want the stress of that always on me. So I try to make an effect where I can make an effect.

Joanne Lockwood: So you work with people who've been forcibly disenfranchised, relocated, fleeing the country. Do you have much memory of when you first arrived in Canada as a, as a refugee, stroke immigrant, how you felt at that time in terms of your loss of reference to the culture, lots of reference to your language. How long did it take you to adapt? Say that would be more my parents

Mina Sharif: story because I was too young. So you know, I'm trying to absorb how that was for them to a point. And I think I saw more of the after effect of that of having to conform a lot and having to be maybe being too sad to talk about the things they missed. It took them a long time to really open up about the positive sides of the country to me outside of home life, meaning, yes, we had the food, we had the music. They, we loved the culture but it was painful for them to discuss the lives that they'd left behind. That took a long time, and I picked up on that, that that was difficult for them. Like I said, I was too young. So I arrived here. By the time I was four years old, I was already in Canada and in kindergarten. So I wouldn't say that I was affected by the actual transition to the extent that an adult or an older child would be. But I had always, in looking back, I had never had it acknowledged for me that I am a child of a first generation discovering a whole new host country. I had never been acknowledged for my personal loss of, you know, not having a. Not growing up somewhere that my parents even understand. I didn't have guides to tell me what a Canadian upbringing is and what life is going to look like. I think a lot of people in my position, which, again, there are millions of Afghans alone, never mind of other backgrounds, we really do have to fend for ourselves. And there are layers of guilt because we're so lucky while our parents had to flee, and we're so lucky while other people still live in war. And we rarely take the moment or that time to say we had it bad, too. Not getting caught up in that victimhood and finding a place where we feel powerful, that's where. That's where I want to sort of be part of that narrative, because I. Always consider

Joanne Lockwood: it to be a extreme privilege to have been raised and brought up in the country in which I was born, with a language, with a culture where my parents resided. To suddenly find yourself transported effectively the other side of the world, where your, Your. Your language is not understood, you don't understand the other language. Maybe, maybe you've got some understanding of English or French, whichever part of Canada you're in, but it's not inherently part of your first language. Also, you've probably left behind a career, a profession. You could be a doctor, a lawyer, a plumber. You could have a business that you've left behind. And suddenly you've come into a country with effectively nothing. And it's actually not. It's actually worse than nothing because you haven't got all the things you were used to. You're almost negative what's going. I mean, I can appreciate that people are going, wow, at least I'm safe now, and safety is a big factor. But how hard is it for someone to really grieve, if you like, for their former life?

Mina Sharif: That's so beautifully asked. Thank you so much. I mean, I. Again, in the context of how my Family got here. My parents are the ones who felt it. However, being that I came back to Canada from Afghanistan and could not return, I felt a degree of what they had felt. I wouldn't call it the same thing, obviously, because I had roots in Canada to return to. I wasn't coming here to start life completely brand new. However, I lost everything that I had built for myself, the career path that I had wanted, which was to stay in Afghanistan. I had no intention of moving back to Canada permanently, ever. Never wanted to. With due respect to Canada, I love it here, but that was my path that I wanted for myself. And, you know, even down to my belongings are still in Afghanistan, I didn't get to, you know, pack them up nicely and relocate. There was an element of exile in my experience as well, and it's quite overwhelming. It's really, really difficult to feel a connection to where you are now. And in your mind, you realise, intellectually, you realise, I have to start connecting to where I am now. I will not be back there for the foreseeable future. But that connection is sometimes so difficult that you decide it's better I just don't think about what I used to have. It's better. I just don't think about it and focus on gratitude. And I'm so glad I'm safe. And let me just. Let me just perform well here so that I'm accepted and welcome here, because I do want to show gratitude for my safety, I do want to move on. And I don't know that we really give ourselves that time to grieve. Any of us, not my experience or my parents or the ones who are born and raised here, who also have a version of that whole of identity, I don't know that we give ourselves that chance. And that's a lot of what I speak about in workshops that I do. Let's recognise that even if the newcomer doesn't recognise it themselves yet.

Joanne Lockwood: So when you're running workshops, when you're working with, I guess, Canadians, trying to enlighten them to help other Afghans, other people from other parts of the world who've been displaced to relocated, how do you advise people to embrace other cultures and create that feeling of belonging? Because that's what people want to feel, isn't it, when they come into a country they don't belong at all, and then they have to go through this transitional phase where they start to feel supported. So how can people help?

Mina Sharif: Yeah, well, when I do workshops for, let's say, service providers, people who already work with newcomers, refugees I mean, I'm working, working with a pretty compassionate group at that point. Like they have the empathy. I think sometimes what is skipped over is when someone moves here from, let's say, Switzerland, we have to realise that that's quite different than someone who's seeking refuge from a war torn country or from a violent situation. And fortunately in Canada and the west, oftentimes the process is the same for everybody. So you welcome them, you show them the ropes and you call it a day. And what I'm asking for is, especially with youth, to really show another layer of compassion for what they've had to, you know, the fact that they didn't leave with the same kind of choice that some others might have, the fact that they might have certain traumas that they need to address and that we need to incorporate into that welcoming and it's for the betterment of everyone. It's not like, hey, do them a favour, they're sad. It's more so, you know, as a society to have a coming from a place of healing and mental health. We want that for our host country as well. We want Canada to have teenagers who integrate in a healthy way, not teenagers who suppress all of the trauma that they've seen, only to grow up, you know, unable to really become a member of society that is, is functioning from a more healed place, feeling more welcome, being allowed to acknowledge what they've gone through. So that's like a missing element that I acknowledge with service workers. When I work, I speak at class classrooms and like a university gender studies class, it'll differ. And they usually come with some, essentially always come with some, wanting to understand and be empathetic. And that's the greatest first step. I don't think I would even be willing to speak to a group that I don't feel has that first step because then I'm just talking at you. You want to have your stereotypes about us and you want to stick with them. I will allow it. Go for it. I'm not here, I don't have that kind of energy. But when someone wants to learn about, you know, what are they? What had, what did they face, what did they let go of, what did they lose? What do they fight for? Do they even like their country? Aren't they just happy to get out of it? Like, what's there to like about Afghanistan? Those kind of conversations make me happy because that's when I can make a change in how someone views the people of the country I'm from. And those are questions going through my mind as well, at

Joanne Lockwood: the moment, you know, it's. I was, I wasn't actually born in the uk, but I was, I was born with my parents being in Singapore at the time. But I, I relocated back to the UK when I was a year and a half. When I was over in Singapore, I lived in the community of other naval personnel, if it's all right. Whilst I've always felt that I was never a native, I've always been a native, if that makes sense. I've always had this identity of being born elsewhere. Even second, third or even fourth generation migrants, immigrants still feel that connect with their motherland or fatherland, however you want to describe it, and that's really important. How does Canadian culture, if you like, embrace the Afghan culture and allow the people who have come into these communities to still express themselves? Or is there a lot of inherent repression and bias, if you like. I think systematically Canada is quite

Mina Sharif: good. I don't think it's perfect, I think there's lots of room to grow. But I think it's. Canada describes itself as a mosaic rather than a melting pot, which is beautiful. I think the intent is quite good. As for how communities actually sort of take charge in learning about each other, take a more active role in that healing process for newcomers, that there's a lot of room for improvement there and that's where the change really happens. I appreciate, you know, acknowledgment of our holidays from the Prime Minister. Sure, great. But it's not, it's. It's very beautiful. And the symbolism of it, I didn't have that growing up. I know it means a lot. I know seeing us on TV shows and in programme, it's great. But I do separate, systematic acknowledgement of these cultures to the actual day to day life and how we are embraced and how much we learn about each other. And I prefer the more grassroots sort of, you know, let's look at how we're actually accepting each other and learning about each other and that there's so much room to grow in that I don't know that we make an effort. And again, I will repeat, this includes people who are from those countries. This is not like, you know, white people don't love Afghans and I'm mad about it. No, I mean even Afghans don't know about Afghanistan and that could be said the same for other similar countries or anyone who's left their country of origin. And it's not a blame thing, it's that we don't have the access and we don't Ask the questions. And we don't know that. That's our responsibility. We have to. We don't learn. Just. You can't depend on media to teach you nuance. It never will. You meant to the media there. So when you in

Joanne Lockwood: Afghanistan, I believe you were involved with media, is that. That was your profession, if you like, in Afghanistan? That's right. So I mostly was

Mina Sharif: working in educational programming for children. So I did the Sesame street for Afghanistan for a while with, developed a show that highlighted children from different provinces and highlighted the Afghan Scouts programme that was with boys and girls. So a lot of children and education focused content, but also PSAs that supported public service messages. So basically health and safety and all that kind of stuff. It was a. Somewhere between advertising and educational content and, you know, touching base on many of those things, radio and television mainly. Have you been

Joanne Lockwood: able to bring that skill back into Canada? Are you still involved with the media? To the extent that I

Mina Sharif: want this kind of connection fostered. I do speak and I do attend events and I am on media at times as well. But I do think my path is a little different from what people oftentimes just want to repeat. They want to have a roundtable where everyone's saying the same thing. And I. That tires me out quite a bit. I really want to say, I don't always want to talk about how did we get to this terrible state. I don't always want to talk about what is the political solution. I want to talk about just between us, leave the systems out of it. How are we connecting to each other? And that's not always super welcome on media, is it? People don't want to talk about that grassroots connection as much as they want to talk about overarching, simplified conversations. So let's dive into that now, then. That's.

Joanne Lockwood: That's. That's where your passion is. We already are. Yeah, yeah. Let's go deeper, let's go deeper. I mean, where do I start? Where do I start? Because I. I know very little about the culture, I know very little about the faith, the. The. The language itself. What's important other than what I'm fed on the media and the news, which, as you say, it's very biassed, it's very polarised and it's there to tell a particular story, to get a particular outcome. How can I, as, as a. As a white British person living in the uk, understand more and have more empathy for the plight and how to help and support when they're in this country? That's.

Mina Sharif: That's Wonderful of you to ask and I. I hope anyone listening can see that. I thank you. And I hope that anyone listening to this can see that. That is a pressure that I see on you as someone who's not Afghan and not, you know, knowing much about it, Afghan in this instance, but again, of all visible minorities or however you're labelling them. Labelling. Labelling is important to, to consider because from your side of, of it, where you don't know much and you want to learn, it can be scary. It can. There can be a fear of being labelled as, you know, this person's ignorant and they look down on us and they, they are, they're from a colonising background. I know that that fear is, you know, ingrained subconsciously in people. Even when they want to be welcoming, they also are met with a lot of anger from people who haven't felt welcome, you know, in their lifetime. So that's something that I think needs to be acknowledged. And the people who are being asked questions are equally responsible. They need to let go of the. They need to create a space of welcoming. If you don't want to be asked anything about your culture, you can't be angry that someone doesn't know about it and vice versa, if you're not going to have the courage to ask about something, you can't decide, you know, the country. So everybody's got a role to play. Everybody needs to sort of step up and say, the media can't just handle this for me. If I want to learn about other people, I need to ask about them. Now, how do we do that? Respectfully, first of all, I guess know your audience if you're. If. Or know who you're asking. I think there's some personal response, personal gauging of if I were to come across someone who's just anti Canada and I hate it here and they've ruined my. I'm not going to talk to them about connectivity because they, they don't want to. They want to be angry at, at their commute, an entire race, for example. I can't help that. But if I can see that there's room and I see, for example, you, Joanne, you're curious. You want to know. It's my responsibility to make that space welcoming for you. And it's your responsibility to sort of think of what you want to know, kind of be a little specific about it, so that you're not tasking me with an entire, like, you know, centuries of history to teach you. Tell me everything. Yeah, tell me everything.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's some moves you can make. I mean, I guess

Mina Sharif: one way to say it. What if I wanted to learn about Sudan? I don't know much about Sudan. I know that there's, you know, a lot of turmoil in Sudan. I don't know much about it. If I were sitting in front of someone Sudanese, I might have some questions about, you know, what does your culture look like? What are some of your favourite parts about your culture? What was your personal experience? This kind of thing. But I would go online and look at maybe some youtubes of Sudan. What does it look like? We have a lot of access in this day and age that we didn't have before, right? There are YouTubes and YouTube videos. There's content creators that are based currently in the country we're talking about. So why not, like, look at what they're doing, See what they're doing. It's available in English. Learn a recipe, if that's what you know, sort of connects you to a culture. These are beautiful, tiny ways that make an impact on you. As someone who's curious. You feel connected now to Afghanistan. You've watched a video of one of our greatest meals and dishes and watched a family cook and, you know, they're small moves. You don't have to become an overnight expert in Afghanistan to satisfy the role of a compassionate person towards Afghanistan, of a supporter of an ally. It's that openness that matters. There can be a danger that you become

Joanne Lockwood: overly benevolent, where you have this bias assumption that these are poor, helpless people that need your charity, your support, and if you're not careful, you end up coming across as this person who is very patronising in, whilst trying to do good, that they end up missing the point. How can people. I appreciate what you said. There is. Do your research, do the listening. But people are often scared of getting things wrong that they know they don't know and they're worried about their conversation and putting their foot in it. So they say what they think is a nice thing. But the nice thing is actually more patronising by trying to be helpful. And that's fair. And that's fair. And that's why, like

Mina Sharif: earlier I said, you know, there just has to be some bravery. You have to ask. And you can. You can put a disclaimer in the beginning, like, I don't want to be, you know, patronising when I ask this. I don't know anything about that. What is that? Like, you asked me in that way and I was not at all offended because in all fairness, that's all the access you've had. Again, responsibility both ways goes both ways. I need to be open to the fact that you didn't have access to the information. You kind of need to realise that. Yeah, you can't. You can't lead with your. The information you've been given. You can't lead thinking like, well, what I saw is this on tv. So that's when it becomes patronising, when you're asking with an idea already in your head. Have more of an open mind. So that it leaves room for me to say, well, this is what it's like versus me defending Afghanistan against those ideas you already have. Does that make sense? You know, kind of come in with an open slate. That usually kind of changes how the conversation goes. But as far as sort of that condescending saviorism that paints us all as victims. Ooh, that's an epidemic. Yeah, we have. We deal with a lot of that.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I'm sure. I'm sure you do it. I'm sitting there having a conversation with you. Knowing. Knowing what I don't know and knowing the. What I do know is laced with bias. Yeah. Images in my head. I know all of that. I know that I'm not educated and I know that everything I want to ask is going. Hang on a minute. Is going through a filter in my brain saying, don't be silly. No, no, don't be silly. That's a bias. That's an assumption. That's all this. But I'm very used to having conversations with people where I don't know. So I have this filter in my brain that says, let's just sanitise that question before it comes out my mouth. I don't always get it right. Don't always get it wrong. But, yeah, it's important that when you are trying to engage and respectfully help people, you have to understand that that person is not helpless, they're not unintelligent. There's almost a superiority of intelligence, isn't there, where someone's language is different, someone's background's different. You're talking about people here who are very capable, very intelligent, professional, academically gifted people who are. Their only fault is they've been displaced through no fault of their own. And so we have to recognise when we're trying to offer help and support, they want their value back, don't they? They want to. They want to feel that passion and purpose again. They want to go back to some of those skills they already had. So how can we engage people? Because I See examples, I've heard examples where in the UK people have been displaced. There were doctors, there were nurses, they were very good roles. And now they're doing cleaning jobs. And now they're doing this because people only see that side of them. They're not seeing into their heart and soul, just their perception of them. So that's what we need to help people get over, to understand these people are fully functional, professional, credible human beings who've just been picked up and dropped somewhere else. And now they need your allyship, if you like, to see into their heart, not to invent a story for them.

Mina Sharif: And, you know, there's a simple solution to that, is ask them about themselves and don't task them with teaching, you know, or speaking for their whole country, because no one would ever ask that of someone in the uk. You know, like, what does everyone in the UK feel about this? What does everyone. You know, it's just, there's a, there's a lack of dignity in that when you're, you're. Because you're, you're essentially grouping everyone together, which is another version of a stereotype. If I sit here and tell you Afghans are all resilient and all of them dislike the Taliban, that's not even fair because I'm imposing me. So if we could just, I think, approach people in general conversation, we're even outside of this Afghanistan conversation we're having. We need to ask people about their personal experience rather than these broad, all encompassing, hey, tell me all about your country and how everyone thinks and feels and experiences life. Tell me about your experience in life. It will enlighten you. Because I have a Afghanistan lived experience and it's going to reflect a good portion of the population, maybe most of them, but it does, it does allow me to speak from a place where I'm just telling you about my experience. I am not tasked with, you know, altering every stereotype you've had. Maybe some of them, some of what I've lived is similar to what you've heard and it is a stereotype. But it's just, I think people look for this broad stroke answer from us about Afghanistan and that makes it hard to deliver the information and it also makes it hard for you to ask in a way that doesn't, that doesn't make it uncomfortable. But the solution is ask a personal question, ask that person's story. Hey, you do this here in the uk, what, what were you doing where you were, how. What was that like? Was, you know, and, and it becomes just a little bit More relaxed, I think, organically that way. Do you

Joanne Lockwood: find it exhausting, personally, to be a professional Afghani advocate, for want of a better way of describing it? So most of what you do is to advocate for Afghani immigrants, creating better lives, creating awareness of immigration and people's lives here. Sometimes you just want to take your shoes off and go, I just want to be meaner. I don't want to be professionally Afghan anymore. I just want to. I want to just be me. I want to go and do my shopping.

Mina Sharif: Well, I do that. I do that. Yeah. I absolutely have gotten to a healthier place where I'm not tasking myself to. As I said earlier in our conversation, I can't get the Taliban out of there. I can't change everyone's mind about Afghanistan. I just go with, you know, what's in front of me, what I can do, what I have the energy to do. And I always appreciate when I'm having a conversation that includes me on a personal level, because that's much healthier to talk about, because I'm not worried that I'm saying something wrong when I say that the Afghans don't like the Taliban. What about the few that do? You know, I'm being. Technically, I'm being incorrect. And that's. That's a. That's a burden. But at the same time, most people don't experience that as much as I think people from Afghanistan do, specifically Afghan women. So I. I'm often asked questions that begin with the words, as an Afghan woman, dot, dot, dot. Right. It's. You just don't hear that from other countries. You don't hear someone being asked, as an American woman, you know, speak on behalf of all American women to me now. And that's. No one's tasked with that. You realise that they all have different nuances and different experiences and we don't get that often in our. When we're addressed. Do you find that quite a

Joanne Lockwood: cognitive burden? Because, I mean, I'll give you an example. I do a lot of press interviews representing transgender people. You know, they want to know what I think about this. Trans people in sport, trans people in prisons, trans people in this. And suddenly in my head, I know I've got all the people who've got very critical views, I've got all the people who got very positive views, and I've got the trans population all judging me as well. And you think, whatever comes out of my mouth, I've got to try and find this middle ground of appeasement for as many people as possible. Yet, speak my truth. It's a real burden. We just connected 100% there. That

Mina Sharif: is exactly it, except that I'm being asked about Afghanistan, and I'm also. Yeah, there even is a parallel in the level of oppression we're being asked to, you know, speak about. And you really want to defend the dignity of your community while at the same time acknowledging that there's nuance in there. There's. Each one is an individual human being, and we. We can't lose sense of that. It's losing sense of that that traps us into that exhaustion of it. You know, media is a little difficult because they are stuck in that loop. I often feel like, all right, well, what is it today? Are we going to paint me, me as in, like, all Afghan women? Because, of course, I represent all of them. But are we represent. Are we trying to get a. Paint a picture of we are victims? Or are you wanting to hear some stories of women who are defying? And then we land back at, isn't it so sad? And then we move on? So it is. It's so repetitive that I'm a little turned off by sort of the mainstream conversations. For that reason, I think you'll ever. Get to the point where you

Joanne Lockwood: identify, for whatever way of describing it, as. A Canadian woman,

Mina Sharif: identify as a Canadian woman. So you are a Canadian. So as a Canadian woman. Yeah. And I. No one ever asked me that, because why would I represent all of Canada? Because I have a very unique experience, but so does every other woman in Canada. But I don't identify as only a Canadian woman. I very much identify, honestly, first as an Afghan woman, and then additionally as a Canadian woman. But that's the. That's the choice that I make. The choice I make is to embrace both the worlds I'm from. Whereas many have decided either one or the other, I choose both. I refuse to let someone tell me I'm not from here or that I'm not from there. Yeah. So you've got these layers of your identity,

Joanne Lockwood: who you are, what's important to you. And being Canadian and being Afghani are not conflicting. They're just different parts of your life, different layers of your life, different different experiences, connections you've made. And of course, within that is also the fact you're a woman, the fact that you're of a certain age, the fact that you've got certain upbringing, your family, all those other things factor into that. But it's really hard sometimes for people to see through that, isn't it? And that's the challenge you face. I face it as well, where you're not this label first and people expect you to be that label. And when you go, actually, I just want to watch Netflix. Yeah. Your identity is important,

Mina Sharif: and you do. Your experience speaks for it. It gives people insight into it, but you don't represent all. And that's not the only thing you are. Right. Like, that's not the only. Your identity isn't. I'm not just a woman from Afghanistan or just a woman from Canada or, you know. Yeah. Or just a woman. Yeah. Or any. Just a woman. Yeah. Yeah. We're all very beautifully sort of put together puzzles and. Yeah. It's hard to. It's hard to. It's hard to connect with. It's hard to. It's a struggle to decide whether you want to go into the nuance and not demand that we talk about more layers or accept that people just want to hear a certain amount. And, hey, let me get out as much of a message as I can to support my community, which I'm sure you relate to. Like, let's at least use this opportunity to offer some dignity to my community, even if they're not gonna ask me really deeper questions, you know, it's a struggle. So when you kick your shoes

Joanne Lockwood: off at night, what brings you joy? When I think I've changed

Mina Sharif: someone's perception in a positive way, and not only their perception of Afghanistan, it's more. It's deeper than that for me, I think, when I've given someone permission to be less hard on themselves for what they do or don't know about identity or about someone else's identity when they're now curious, like, oh, maybe I want to learn more now. And I don't feel as threatened by this community or that community or when someone feels seen or heard. So write, right, to relax. I write short stories, and they're based predominantly. I write short stories and doing a young adult novel as well. And the point of those is. Is to do that is through a fictional world to make you feel welcome to, like, look at the details of Afghan life and see what a day looks like without me sitting there telling you, this is how all Afghan experiences are. You know, I don't want to do that. So what about if we explore different people? So I write short stories that maybe are from the perspective of an orphan young boy, and then another one might be in the perspective of a woman who works in media. But, yeah, I relate to that. And maybe another one is from the perspective I wrote a story not Long ago about the. From the perspective of the street dogs that run around the city. So when someone reads something that I've written like that and they feel heard and seen, I can't say I have a better feeling than, than that. Like that feels like what I would wish to. To do every day.

Joanne Lockwood: So you basically just transcend the lives of one person to be better and to feel better. To feel better and to feel more motivated. Connect with

Mina Sharif: others and first. But you can't connect with others until you've connected to yourself. Right. You, you just can't. You have to love yourself before

Joanne Lockwood: others can love you. And you're not going to love other people's identities until you

Mina Sharif: love your own. You just can't. You can't. And so that's what my community needs to do sometimes, not all, but sometimes they need to connect with who they are first so that they are less angry at others around them. They lead with anger. I think mainly for the reason that that connection hasn't been fostered independently. First for themselves, but they're angry at others. Why do, why do you stereotype us? But wait, how much do you connect? Personally, I'd like to challenge them to think that way sometimes as well. Yeah. If we're not careful, we always fall into that. Us and

Joanne Lockwood: them. Yeah. Because we're always us and they are always them. And no matter which side of the fence you're on, you always have an us and a them. And it creates battles, it creates wars, it creates misunderstanding because we're all so dug into our own sense of self that anybody who doesn't fit into that is automatically an outsider. But that's human survival. That's human bias. It's hundred thousand years worth of evolution where we had to look after ourselves. And if you were a stranger from over the hill, you were a threat. And that's kind of how we see each other. And the animal kingdom does it. Now a strange lion turns up to a pride of lions. It gets attacked for being an outsider either. You're so right and I appreciate

Mina Sharif: you saying that because it helps. Actually very literally helps me because sometimes I over task myself with no. We must foster these connections at every turn. And to a degree there's always going to be that separation. And I don't want people to essentially like all be alike or all understand each other. You know, you and I were, were speaking before we recorded about how you're not going to understand everyone's point of view or relate to it in some kind of complete way. That's not the goal. Right. Compassion is not from similar, it comes or the connection isn't formed from being similar. The connection is formed from just having some compassion towards that person. That's it. You don't need to understand their whole life. You just need to have some compassion for it and understand, hey, that person lived a whole different life. And it's equally valuable to mind. I think it's also respecting the fact

Joanne Lockwood: you can coexist in a world with people who you don't agree with, where people you don't like, people who don't like you, people who don't understand you can coexist. You don't have to create an argument or a battle. You just have to go, yeah, fine, whatever. If we don't get on, I'll go that way, you can go that way. It doesn't cost me anything. I don't have to argue with you, don't have to tell you you're wrong. You're speaking like a

Mina Sharif: confident person. We don't have enough confidence in this world to, you know, to fuel that. When you're confident in who you are and connected to your identity and, and you learn as much as you can about yourself, then you're not quite as bothered by someone else's existence. That's how people do get hung up with this zero sum argument,

Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? If, if I, you win, I lose, you gain, I get less. And that's a lot of how identity politics or just, just life tends to work. Is we always want to be fairness based. What, what do I get? That's how I judge fairness. Am I getting something I judge bias and media reporting by? Do I get something from that? Otherwise they're talking about the other people, they're getting more than I am. What about my say? And I think that's what we've got to try and let go of that. We keep holding onto that prisoner of belief, don't we? We're going to try and let go of that and say, actually it doesn't matter, I've got enough, I've got sufficient. This person needs more help. Give them some more help.

Mina Sharif: It's fight or flight, right? Like you just really feel like if I don't hang on to this tightly, someone's going to take it away. Like that's an energy that a lot of people lead with. It's hard to really accept and come to terms with the fact that there is space for everyone in this world to shine and to be happy and to like live their passions. If we allow for It. We're not really led down that path or led down a path that makes it look like only a couple people can live great lives. And you and the masses, you just fight for those, like, you know, very few opportunities. And that's not reality. The reality is it's disproportionate, systematically. Not that it's disproportionate because only you should have this opportunity and this other person shouldn't, systematically. We've been, I think, really all around oppressed all around the world in understanding our. Our value, in understanding that we all deserve equal space to each other. It's hard for us to see that. I've loved chatting. We've been

Joanne Lockwood: chatting away for over an hour, nearly an hour and a half before we went live. Absolutely fascinating. And I've really enjoyed finding out more about you as a human being, but also some of the experiences you brought with you as you've travelled the world. So, yeah, it's been really fascinating. Thank you very much. Likewise. Thank you. This is exactly the kind of

Mina Sharif: conversation that, you know, I walk away feeling so good from because I hope we've opened some people's eyes and, if anything, made people feel slightly less threatened about learning about each other or about themselves. So if people want to get in touch, what's the best way? I do have a website, minasharif.com that's probably the go to and you can link to my socials from there. So my LinkedIn or my Twitter or my Instagram. On Instagram, I do share a lot of content about Afghanistan to humanise it. Like I said, it's not anyone's fault that they have that war image, but how do we change that? And I try to be a part of, you know, what I. What I want from people. I share photos from my time there, stories from my time there, to sort of let you see what day to day life look like. And the short stories I was telling you about are coming out in a book this summer, which will be available on my website. And I hope that that offers some healing to Afghans who have been far from their country and opens up a window for people who want to learn more about Afghanistan and feel more connected to it. I really hope that that does something for. I've just quickly nipped onto your Instagram

Joanne Lockwood: profile and there's a. Yeah, some great photos on there. So, yeah, I encourage anyone who's listening to. To do the same and just check out real pictures of real people and real stories. Not what the media wanted here, but. Well, actually what this one Afghan woman wants you to see. So this is your perspective, but it's a great perspective, a real human perspective. Thank you. Thank you. And it's to add to your

Mina Sharif: headlines. No one's denying those headlines. We're just saying it's just a. It's a speck of the truth. Yeah. The

Joanne Lockwood: dangers. If we get hung up thinking there's only one story, there's more stories. So say, look at the other stories. Yeah. Mina, thank you. A pleasure. Thank you so much. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.