--- title: "Being inclusive means leaving no one behind" episode: 17 date: 2020-10-08 guest: "Dr Jacqui Taylor" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/17-leave-no-one-behind audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-017/audio.mp3 --- # Being inclusive means leaving no one behind Joanne Lockwood is joined by Dr Jacqui Taylor, a web scientist and IoT innovator, to explore what “leave no one behind” means in practice as technology reshapes society. Jacqui traces her path from aerospace engineering into deep tech and web science, and describes how the internet’s expansion can unlock opportunity when it is designed to be accessible and inclusive. The conversation looks at how different generations experience the online world, and why inclusion must account for both the connected and the disconnected. They discuss the risks that sit alongside opportunity, including cybercrime, the dark web, deepfakes and misinformation, and what safeguarding can look like during lockdown and beyond. Jacqui shares work focused on supporting young people’s online safety and mental wellbeing, including the idea of a “social guardian” to help navigate online harm. They also examine the future of work as automation and AI change entry-level roles, arguing for a model where machines handle repetitive tasks while humans bring judgement, context and diverse perspectives. Throughout, Jacqui frames inclusion as a global, community-by-community challenge, referencing advisory work with governments and international bodies and the need for practical digital skills so that progress does not widen inequality. The episode closes with Jacqui sharing free cyber-safety resources and ways for listeners to connect and learn more. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Pioneering aerospace engineer overcomes gender barriers. - 09:57 — 1980s: Cordless phones, early computing, communication protocols. - 12:42 — Building for Gen Alpha, embracing tech's evolution. - 16:25 — Lockdown highlighted need for human contact, online safety. - 21:44 — Appointed to group for global inclusion plan. - 30:04 — Global digital skills gap highlighted, intervention planned. - 36:35 — AI shifts heavy workload, guides resource deployment. - 38:19 — AI classifies content, humans interpret and decide. - 45:20 — Questioning technology's impact on human existence and interaction. - 53:41 — Accepted UN advisor, former science diplomat, China work. - 59:45 — Criminals targeted children online during pandemic. - 01:04:57 — Creating empathy economy with free online resources. - 01:09:29 — Access to Zoom Jackie, LinkedIn, and Facebook. - 01:12:36 — Invite friends, colleagues; exciting guests, share insights. Bye! ## Key takeaways - The advancement of deep technology and its potential to inclusively connect talent worldwide. - Preparedness of global economies to adapt to accelerated technological change and the importance of developing digital skills. - The societal impact of artificial intelligence on job automation and human roles in the future economy. - The ethical responsibilities of advancing technology and the critical role younger generations will play in shaping the digital world. - The differences in digital adoption within diverse communities and the risks of exacerbating the generational digital divide. - Strategies to enhance online safety for younger generations, and the mental health challenges faced by Gen Z and Gen Alpha. - Approaches to utilise artificial intelligence for welfare without adverse psychological impact on human moderators, and promoting inclusivity in technology development. ## FAQs ### Who is Dr. Jackie Taylor and what is her background? Dr. Jackie Taylor is a former aerospace engineer whose career took a turn towards technology and engineering after her mother's passing. She is now involved in creating inclusive, deep technology and advises on global topics like the industrial Internet of Things. ### What does 'deep technology' refer to and how does it relate to inclusion? Deep technology in the context of Dr. Taylor's work refers to significant innovations in technology that are accessible to all and leverage global talent. It embodies the idea of developing technology in ways that ensure no one is left behind in our rapidly advancing digital world. ### How many countries are prepared for the technological changes affecting the future workforce? According to Dr. Taylor's discussions, out of 180 countries, only 40 are prepared to make the necessary changes for the future economy. This marks a considerable challenge for global readiness in adapting to technological advancements. ### What role does AI play in automation according to the discussion with Dr. Jackie Taylor? AI is seen as a tool for automating tasks that don't necessarily require the depth of human intellect, such as analysing human emotions and advising on resource allocation for events, thereby freeing up humans for higher-order decision-making. ### What is the Bandahof community, and why was it mentioned in the podcast? Bandahof is a group that intentionally lives without modern technology, adhering to a simple lifestyle with traditional gender roles and communal production. It was brought up during the conversation to ponder whether advancing technology will facilitate a more equitable society or create more disparity. ### How has the internet changed Joanne Lockwood's life in contrast to Dr. Jackie Taylor's focus? Joanne Lockwood reflected that the internet has profoundly altered her experiences from growing up in the 80s without it. In contrast, Dr. Jackie Taylor's focus is more on her work as a web scientist dealing with the dark web and maintaining human connections amidst cybercriminal activities. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today it's episode 17 with the title leave no one behind, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Dr. Jackie Taylor. Jackie and I met online in a Facebook group for professional speaking, yet another relationship borne out and forged by the coronavirus lockdown. Jackie describes herself as one of the hundred global leaders 2019 and in the top ten global Internet of things innovators. She doesn't just predict the future, she engineers, it's in cutting edge website research. I can't wait to find out what that means. I asked Jackie to describe her superpower and she said, I build deep technology which unlocks inclusion outcomes for all. Hello, Jackie, welcome to the show. Hi, Dr Jackie Taylor: Jo. Delighted to be here, speaking to you today from somewhere outside of. Oh, brilliant. I Joanne Lockwood: hope the weather's not quite as hot and sticky as it has been all week. Dr Jackie Taylor: Oh, my goodness, no. Much better today. And I'm lucky to be in my studio, which is climate controlled, the rest of the house isn't, but the studio is, so I would manage normally. But goodness me, it's been exciting times on all of that rushing around or trying not to. Wow, I'm so Joanne Lockwood: jealous. Ok, Jackie, so what do you mean by leave no one behind? Dr Jackie Taylor: Well, as a web scientist, and I probably should explain that first, I've not always been a web scientist. My career started as an aerospace engineer, but it was disrupted quite rapidly and rudely with the death of my mother. So I had to take some time out in order to keep my family together and to look at how life would carry on. So I took a two year gap in that and reset my studies after that. That, I would say, focused my mind beyond my own bubble. I think when you're in your pre 20s, you tend to be in your own sort of bubble, and when you have a traumatic incident like that, it tends to expose you to the fact that the world doesn't always run on parallel tracks or on unknown tracks, essentially. When I qualified, I'd put together some cutting edge research that actually looked at solving one of the problems our aerospace industry had. It creates noise pollution for our society. And I'd worked with engineers to produce new jet engine technology that reduced that pollution. So even as an aerospace engineer, I was looking at this from a societal point of view, and that was fantastic. My dissertation gave birth to a brand new aircraft, and I didn't get to work on it because what happened there was I was female, and female engineers back in the day were very few and far between, and the client that bought the aircraft off plan was from the Middle east and didn't need me influencing what happened with that plane into the sky. So I found myself having done all this pioneering work with no career path. The MD of the aerospace company, Pilot friend of mine, said, what we have here is something quite unique. Let's look at it in a different way. I said, that's great. He said, so, can you just go in and sort out all those technologists who don't seem to do what you do? And that began my career as technology can be created, birthed, engineered. I was part of the initial movement to create a movement in technological software engineering, engineers that actually said, don't build technology like this, build it from engineering principles. And so I learned over 35 years ago now that actually what we can do is build technology that includes everybody. And what that's called is something called deep tech, deep technology. And that's something very unique in the technology world. It's built from engineering principles about my early work in and career in software engineering, but it actually includes some major scientific advances, and that's where Web science came in. I'd never heard of it either. And Tim Berners Lee introduced me to it because he made it up. And so the combination of my engineering background and the web science, the fundamental web science I've created, actually underpins the inclusion agenda. We deliver all across the world, and that allows us to be able to build technology which is accessible and utilises a talent. Specifically. Originally was around Generation Z, they're 27 to seven today, but as of my speech at Davos in January 2019, generation Alpha, they're 16 to six. So that's me and that's what I do. Joanne Lockwood: Wow, you just name dropped in there big time, didn't you? You just chucked Tim Burns in there. That's a bit of a powerful name drop right at the beginning of the podcast Kadush straight into the mean. Was he must have been very influential at the time, or has his reputation grown since you knew him? Was this in the early days of the web? Well, we're speaking today on a Dr Jackie Taylor: podcast that you're going to send out to the world. And he, over 30 years ago, connected two technical protocols and said, how do our world. And that's the reason you can do what we do. We're speaking remotely. That's the reason for the fabric of how our society is woven with the World Wide Web. But it was interesting, this fundamental web science, which I'm not sure whether we get into, but was around levelling up the opportunities for our young people, who at the time were 17 to seven, and the technology I built to leave no one behind. Tim said to me, he said, I found out what you've done, which is a scary thing. He tends to talk. He's very focused when he speaks. I found out what you've done. I need you in the Royal Society. It's the 20th anniversary of the web. We need to get this thing moving. So it was the twelveth of March 2009. And, I mean, if Tim Menzi asked you to go somewhere, you go, no idea what it was about. I went, and it's changed my life. Because if he was here today, what he would say is, the reason I did what I did was to enable humanity to find its own truth. That's what he says. He says that anywhere, if anybody ever asks him the right question. And that was what he started that meeting out with. We were there for an entire day. And what he said is, you walked in here from all your disciplines. I was an aerospace engineer. But you walk out of here as web scientists. It doesn't matter what that means. It means whatever it needs to mean. But in order to enable his vision of humanity to discover its own truth, we needed to include everybody. And in the 20th anniversary of the web for 20 years on, what he effectively said was, I haven't managed to do that. We have 18% of the world online, and you lot are here to figure out how to change that. And so that was eleven years ago, and now we have over 50% of the world online. We paste the build out of the web to give people access. There's more of it available than people are connected. So anybody chooses to be connected, they're in and beyond 80% of humanity, it's slightly different. There's a different piece to be done there, and that's the piece we work on now at my company, flying by and rain. But for 80% of the world, connected, you can make a personal choice and you're in Tim, we worked with him for eleven years. And that vision of I translated that connect humanity to its own truth, to in my view, what flying binary would do, my company would do is work out how to develop the technology to make that vision true and to leave no one behind. So that's what I mean by inclusion. Wow. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. As you're talking now, I'm just reflecting, I mean I'm in my mid, well, still in my mid 50s, just about 56, I think so, yeah. Mid fifty s. And my life is inconceivably different to it would have been without the Internet, without the web. And I grew up in the early 80s. Well, Ellis core in the early eighty s. And the Web just wasn't a thing. Mobile phones, they weren't a thing. Phones. The best you have was a cordless phone in your bedroom that connected to a base station somewhere. And it's a big chunk of a brick. And I remember getting into it, into computing, desktop computing, in the mid 80s, just after the IBM PC launched, when there was, we used to call it IBM PC compatible because there were so many incompatibles and Apple were still producing their own version stuff and there was no standards of word processing units, there was no real standard of communication between pcs. We had things like the Gopher protocol and the early SMTP protocols were coming out and all these various technologies remaining niche about universities connecting through their own Internet type. Early stage ARPANET, I think it was called. In those early stages. That's right, communicator and then Gopher seemed to be quite a leading kind of protocol. Then HTTP and HTML kicked in, and that's when it started. Even HTTPs wasn't really a thing in the early stages. There was no such thing as trust and encryption because people tended to trust each other anyway. It's only when the bad guys got involved, really, that we had to start worrying about eavesdropping. And bad guys have been responsible for a lot of technology advancements, but they've also snookered a lot of good ideas, haven't they? Yes, absolutely. And that's the work Dr Jackie Taylor: I do today as a web scientist. So I work on the dark web, which is where those people inhabit and essentially work in the cyberspace to ensure that we maintain that vision of humanity connected to its own truth, despite what you've just the phenomenon of the cybercriminals that you're talking about, despite that. So that's the work we do every day at fine binary. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I remember, I think I was about 14 and I was in geography and we were set homework and it was called sheep farming in Patagonia. And we had to write an essay on sheep farming in Patagonia. So as a 14 year old, what were my options? What were my options? I had to go to the local library, I had to hunt through some research. I had no way of finding this. And eventually I found a book, I think, with about a page in it that was relevant and I think I got a d for it because I didn't perceive to do enough research. I spent days on this and I think now I can whip the phone up my pocket, I can type sheep farming in Patagonia. I will try this afterwards. And I can get articles and opinions and journals from all over the world, not just from Argentina or South America, that can give me the answers to my question. So when we talk about accessibility of data, accessibility of information, inclusion in terms of allowing people to communicate, we couldn't have survived lockdown and coronavirus 30 years ago or even ten years ago, could we? No, absolutely not. And it reminds me of Gen Dr Jackie Taylor: Alpha is who we build for today, so to unlock their talents so that they can bring their talents to the world. And it reminds me of a video that a mum sent me, which is actually on YouTube if you want to go look for it, where the mum gives her little girl a magazine, a hard copy magazine, and she immediately does what any of Gen Alpha do because they're a kinesthetic generation is she swipes it, she touches it and she passes it back in seconds and says, it doesn't work. Mum replaces it with an iPad and then the child goes and does what she's looking. And the thing about Gen Alpha is there are first generation where they're immersed in what we've talked about. So I'm a baby boomer myself and essentially I've done that trajectory. As I said, I was catapulted into technology against my will as an aerospace engineer and came back to now, well, eleven years ago when I met Tim, to the industrial Internet of things, which is what we build, that's what deep tech is. And essentially that's because we are in a situation now where we can connect to do whatever we do. It doesn't matter what generation we're from, we can. But Gen Alpha are a kinesthetic generation that assume to be immersed in this stuff. They just have no concept of the idea, it's not available if they want to know. And so I call the Gen alpha generation, the curious generation, the previous generation, Gen Z, there are web entrepreneurs, they're 27 to 70 days and they influence 40% of the economic spend across the world. So they have introduced us to the explore space, but Gen Alpha introduced us to the curious space. So it's no coincidence that inclusion is becoming such a pervasive focus for lots of the world, because Gen Alpha know no reason why it shouldn't be. And if you don't believe know Greta Thunberg and her climate change thing is, why is all this nonsense going on? What on earth are you all doing? Let's just fix this. And so they are, in their kinesthetic way, they will reach those resources which are everywhere. And the acceleration of the adoption of the web and bringing humanity on to be able to use its resources to discover its own truth is an accelerating phenomenon now. So for those of us that were pre web generation, even pre Internet generation, it's been a slow path. But for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they know no different. So if you know anybody or you've reared somebody, as I have, who's 27 or under, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You may have nephews or nieces, neighbours, children, you know exactly what you're talking about. What we at Joanne and I are talking about today, it's really interesting that that becomes and frames our world. And lockdown has effectively typified the acceleration of all of that. Joanne Lockwood: Mean us oldies still have this concept of digital detox where we seem to. I've had enough now I need to reject this and sort of go offline for a month or so. But Gen Alphas and Gen Z have this concept of detox because they're so immersed in the technology, is their channel, their world? Can they switch off? Is that good for their health? I mean, are we living this 24 x seven world of connection? Is that good for our mental health? Dr Jackie Taylor: Well, it's an interesting question that, because it's a multifaceted question, and there's a number of ways of looking at it, but to boil it down to two essential ways as humans, the human contact, which of course has been a feature of this lockdown, in terms of our lack of it, or a reduction of it, or our limitation of it, I think most people would say we've understood our dependency on other humans as part of lockdown, because denying us those social contacts, or doing them as we are today, via a video platform, has very much defined things and we've understood we miss that social contact. So there's that element of it, but the other element of it is my work on the dark web. Not everything we access online is something that is good for us, but how do we tell the difference? And the answer is, you can't. And we can have a long debate about that, but the reality of it is you can't. So I, this week, have kicked off a new project which is, based on the evidence we've assembled, safeguarding our young people from the cybercriminals during lockdown. We call it the social Guardian and that's because they call it the social Guardian. Jen Alpha have said, I feel we need a social guardian to help us navigate when we are online, the unplug or not. I have many parents. I've worked within lockdown where we've had this conversation. Don't wind them up by asking to unplug. Find them other things to do, and they will adopt the thing that works best for them. But what we now have is a phenomenon where the online harm we suffer is not transparent to us. We don't know when we're suffering. So the social guardian is what Jen Alpha have helped me put together during lockdown as part of that safeguarding. And we will effectively. What we are going to do is build them an app based on what we've been doing during lockdown to support their mental health in order to create this fundamental research which is very directed at the moment around Gen Alpha. But we are looking at that some of the online harm that people suffered during lockdown, Gen Alpha suffered during lockdown, has been quite destructive. So it's going to be looking in the acute mental health care. But obviously we will assemble the evidence and the means of looking at everybody's mental wellbeing. Although we again will be focused on Gen Z and Gen Alpha and how they can navigate this world with their own options, but know when it's not safe for them. And so to be able to configure that from a personal point of view. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, for sure. When I talk about inclusion and when we talk to companies around doing inclusion surveys, demographics, when companies say, well, we've found it really difficult to get people to contribute or to share. My first reaction is where there's a low trust environment, people won't trust their data with you if they don't understand what they're going to do with the data, what the reason, what's their why for giving you the data. So we're moving to a cyber world now where we can't trust what we see, what we hear. Deep fake technology. I'm sure you've got a lot of opinions on deep fake. We've got a lot of fake news. World leaders are speaking truth. That is fake. So can we trust world leaders anymore? Can we trust that it's actually them speaking? When we got AI that can voice synthesise, it's not like the old mission impossible. They're cutting bits of mag tape and sticking them together to make the words. You just feed their entire speech repertoire into an AR processor and you can then speak exactly like them, indistinguishable and deep fake. We can invent faces, we can make moving videos now and actually synthesise. I mean, if you look at the last Star wars movie, Princess Leia, Carrie Fisher had already died, yet they had her in the film. Is there a future for actors? Do we need actors anymore? Can we just synthesise our own actors and create our own mean? How do we trust what we're saying? So, it's a really good set of questions Dr Jackie Taylor: and there's no simple answer, and we need a completely other podcast to discuss that. But perhaps what I can do is try to coalesce some of that concern and interest and excitement actually around that future. You're painting the industrial Internet of things, which is what I do as a web scientist. That's what we build, that's what we engineer, is something that has, since my Dava speech in 2019, has become understood for the governments across the world. Initially, for me, it was to be appointed as an expert advisor to the G 20. Now, G 20 are the member countries that actually, they create 60% of the world's gdp. So they are the core group of countries, collaborate together on an annual basis. And throughout that, I first got involved in 2019 and on one of the member countries, Japan. But then in the end of 2019, I was appointed to the group itself. And the reason for that appointment was partly what you said, and partly because the world's growth and how it's been moving forward has been slowing and shrinking. And essentially the question they posed to me was, is there a way of looking at this with a different lens? And the answer is, of course there is. That lens is inclusion, because unlocking the talents of our future workforce, which is what they're focused on, the future, Gen Z and Gen Alpha require very different interventions than what we have now. So I was able to, when we had our digital economy kickoff, which is the digital economies of all of the G 20, in February in the Middle East, I was able to put a global plan together with a 4.4% growth for all of the countries to be able to move forward on, but had to be an inclusion agenda. That's the only way they would achieve it. Now, if you can do that in the Middle east and you're interested in inclusion, there's nothing that you're looking at that you can't do. I take you back to my earlier statement, as I started as an aerospace engineer and didn't get my career because the Middle east had bought those planes and didn't need a woman on board. But then I forward that to 2020 because I delivered that plan formally in February of 2020 and I was in the Middle east telling them how they will run their world and actually how the G 20 will need to be orchestrated. So you take that whole thing and we are effectively flipping the model upside down. Now, be careful what you do, because obviously you get involved in this. There's an awful lot to come out of it. What I would say is, anybody working on the inclusion agenda now, the timing is have. Because what happened after that was the United nations got in touch. I'm a science diplomat for her Majesty's government. I work with other governments that need the sorts of interventions we're talking about, not limited to the g 20. And they said, we'd love that plan. And I said, that will be lovely, but that G 20 plan won't work for you. We have different needs across the rest of the world. And essentially, the G 20 global plan is translated to national plans anyway. Do you know what I mean? There is an overarching agreement we will move forward on a growth agenda using inclusion as our driver. But how you do that in the UK or Japan or Australia is actually different, because each economy is different. And so I've been appointed an expert advisor to translate that to what does the UN need to do to drive its agenda forward? And the UN is actually very different. The UN is looking at a sustainable future, so it's not particularly focused on growth. It wants the future to be sustainable, a better world for all. For those of you listening, if you haven't looked up the UN 17 sustainable development goals, sdgs do look that up, because whatever field you're working in, I guarantee you that a core sdg is where you're working. One of the 17 but secondary sdgs are the changes you're making. So now the UN has reset what I call a new social contract. It turns out that that G 20 digital economy plan was a Covid plan. I didn't know that. That's not why we did it. We did something for three years hence about how we navigate the new growth agendas. But it turns out that because of COVID and 1 billion people have worked from home since we went into Lockwood, what I call the isolation economy. And it turns out that that actually accelerates that G 20 plan. So we've embedded inclusion in a global plan for effectively now 180 economies, 180 nations, not because we did that, not because any of the G 20 or UN team are brilliant, but because we did the right thing, we took the right focus and circumstances. The timing of that was literally five weeks before lockdown, five weeks before this pandemic was declared as such. Find it fascinating that you do the right thing and people say the world moves to support you. Yeah, that's what's happening. We are all working in this arena. That world is now opening up to look at the lens that we use, and in my particular case, leave no one behind to use that same lens. Joanne Lockwood: Technology is moving at such a rapid pace at the moment, as we know. And you're a technologist as well. I get turned on and sexy by technology. I love shiny new things. I've got a despite of gadgets here, most of them born out of the streaming community, which is definitely the Gen alpha, Gen Z stuff. It is. I'm right into that kind of technology. But is there a danger when we talk about leaving no one behind, that the gulf between generations is going to rapidly increase where if you're not tech savvy, you're not adaptable to a new thinking, then you'll become kind of obsolete in the demands of the future? I mean, there's a huge gap where people are Internet savvy, are not Internet savvy, but in the future, we've got to be AI savvy, we've got to be innovative, we got to be dark web savvy, we got to be savvy against cybercrime, and we still see people having their bank accounts empty, where they have too much trust of people online. So are we going to end up this massive gulf? How do we not leave people behind of my age, mid 50s, how am I going to keep up? Well, I think one of the things that I need to Dr Jackie Taylor: be really clear about is it's changing for everybody. Technology is my superpower. It's changing for me, too. So where we are today is only a signal of how far away we are from where we need to be and our future workforce. When I took that evidence based G 20, the original piece I'd done for Davos, I actually did for the g 20 nations. 2 million young people under the age of 36. So when you want to reach out and say, what are the. In our counterterrorism world, we have something called the wicked question, the question we need an answer to that we can't possibly know. And we have technology that we call web intelligence. We can reach out to an individual, any individual on the planet, anywhere, and ask them a set of what we call wicked questions. And we did that. So we asked our future workforce, we said, the sorts of questions you're asking me, we asked them those questions. So, interestingly, 2 million people had the answers across the world, and of those, 2,040,000 actually knew where the problems were. And one of the issues that you're talking about there is how do we pace that forward? Was at the core of that. So where we are now is we've done the work to look at how big that problem is, because you can't solve a problem you don't understand. And so 80 countries have volunteered their information, post the g 20 work, and only 40 of those countries are ready to make that change that we're talking about. So of the 180 countries that are part of my UN work, only 40 are prepared to make that change. But this is the bit that might surprise you. We talk about technology and, Joanne, you're a technologist in that you get deep dive, like you say you like shiny. I'm not a fan of shiny. I've got a whole team who are fans of shiny. But shiny is not my thing. Technology needs to get out of my way. I can break anything and I've spent a career breaking tech, and so I'm the ultimate tester. If it gets off my desk, it can go live. But interestingly, the category of what we had to ask across those 180 countries was who has the skills? But the reality of it was only 40 countries could say their digital economies had the skills to copy a file or to use email. So you're talking about technologies that are way in advance from that spectrum of how good am I with tech? And so we have a whole programme that we're developing around how do we bridge that gap? And digital skills becomes one of the core requirements, because the early adopters, people who understand what we're talking about and think this is exciting and want to get involved and bring their businesses forward, I mean, I've personally got an intervention where I'm going to help a million entrepreneurs do exactly that and bridge that gap you're talking about. To do that across 180 countries is very different. So I think what I would say to anybody that's listening is what we're talking about, is the core of something very exciting, that for those of us where inclusion is our passion, this is actually an area to explore, but only in the context of the work you're delivering. And I talk about that in terms of the value in the inclusion agenda, the value that you're bringing to the world, your contribution, if you can focus this discussion around tech, around that. So, yes, you can go off in a myriad of directions. And do you really need to know about some of the dark web stuff? Maybe. Depends what you're doing. But I'm effectively putting the collateral together. I'm putting the collateral together to help entrepreneurs work out which bits they're missing in order to deliver their growth agenda to meet this new economy, which I call the empathy economy. Inclusion leave no one behind. I believe this new economy we've designed for the G 20, which un is adopting, is called the empathy economy. And I'm bringing those resources online. But in the interim, I've got a bunch of free resources I want to give to the community and your audience. In the meantime, if you can focus on the value you're delivering for inclusion, and you can look at the contribution you're making, if you can expand that to deliver it online and get at least 10% of what you do online, that's how you're wellbeing, that's where your customer base is. Maybe we're still doing lots of offline and one to ones and all of that. You can get your business and what you do for inclusion to 10% of everything you deliver, you are positioned for this new future I'm talking about. Yes, Joanne Lockwood: I can see that this may not be your field of expertise, but what I'm saying is there's this anecdote that 80% of the jobs that will exist in 2030 haven't yet been created. They haven't even been conceived, which means that only 20% of what we're doing now will be doing in the future. I think, in a way, Covid probably has accelerated the obsolescence of certain things. We just take a simple thing like ordering a drink at a bar. Witherspoons were kind of ahead of the game in the UK with this app to order drinks at the table, and now everybody's playing catch up. So a lot of the bar jobs we had, the casual labour jobs, which are often filled by young people, are now becoming obsolete. We're looking at maybe roles like recruiters, we're looking like junior solicitors, junior accountants. These kind of roles are being replaced through either automation, online systems, AI, or end to end processes that don't need human interaction. What do we need, June? Solicitors doing conveyancing when half that process effectively could be automated. So the challenge there is, if we don't have a junior solicitor, how do we get a senior solicitor? How do we go from this world where we had to build our expertise through our career to become an expert? How do we get onto that pathway? So is there a danger here where we lose all these junior entry level roles through automation and we lose the ability to be experts in the same way that a lot of us are losing the ability to handwrite. We never start writing anymore. We're always typing stuff in. So how do we keep the. Again, going back to the theme, leave no one behind. How do we give opportunities to people and retrain them? How can we invest in people to give them these new skills they need? Well, and it's a really good question, and that Dr Jackie Taylor: is exactly central to my United nations work. And essentially where we are is we train the machines, because the thing that we need is for the machines to do what I call the heavy lift and shift. A lot of the intro work is actually at the beginning of a career, is real drudgery, but it doesn't really require human intellect. So the automation of that means that, why wouldn't we do that? Why should a human do that? I'm just thinking on my feet here as to whether I can say that I'm going to go for it. So, for example, fake news. We have an AI that is trained to understand the human emotions on the planet. What do people feel now? The one that's in commercially available does 20 of the 27. I'm not going to talk about the other seven, because I don't think any of your audience are the cybercriminals, so we'll leave them behind because we don't want to inform them. So just the 20 human emotions. And what it does is it consumes everything that streams. It mainly works on video, but it does also do some image processing and it does some text. It doesn't do much text because most of what's out there online is not text. And it literally ingests that. It trains on 20 billion different things every single day. So it gets smarter every single day. But what it does is it's what's called advisory AI. And this is the new career path. The machine does the heavy lift and shift of what I've described. Everything that gets created, 2 billion things every day, it learns that it looks at that against what it's trained, and then it outputs that for humans. The interesting thing about this is that's where the exciting work is, because if I use an example of where this AI is used, if you are a local authority, you're in a local area in the UK, and you've got a big event going on, you want to know where you should put your resources that have. You don't have endless resources, you want to put your resources doing the right thing. You get the AI to take all the feeds from all the cameras, not looking at who anybody is. I don't care who anybody is. But is there something emerging in part of your event space that says, get some people, mobilise them over there? And so the human is saying, well, in this event, that will matter. So, yes, get that squad of people over there. In this particular event, we've actually. It's an unconference event, and we've asked everybody to just go to where they're more comfortable. So in this event, the human says, no, don't scramble a task force on that. So the machine's done all the heavy lifting. Shift. When you think about it in terms of fake news, and particularly the arena I work in and safeguarding Gen Z and Gen alpha, the criminals are exposing our young people to awful things. But then humans have to consume those awful things to know whether we should bring criminal charges. What the machine does, is it because it doesn't have mental health problems as a result of consuming the awful content that's out there in the world, and then it gives to the humans that decide whether this matters, the content that is already classified, and it'll classify this content as mentally acute, mental harm, or through a spectrum. And so actually, the people, we're able to outpace some of the criminals, for example, because people are now employed on doing the classification, looking at the classification that the AI has created and deciding whether it matters to them today, usually because it's not a general set of things. What matters today might not matter tomorrow, but equally, if you can imagine that task force of people that are taking the output from that advisory AI, if we have an inclusive group of people, then all of our human skills and talents that decide whether it matters, not just people that have been trained through a linear career path, but people who are a bit more unusual, like Joanne and myself and any of you listening, we could be part of that, because we could say, well, to you that might matter, but to us it doesn't. So we start to be able to look at a lens on the world that is including all of us and putting it contextually. So, in this context, this is what inclusion means, which is not the same as the context we looked at yesterday. So that's why we say most of the jobs that we're going to do, that we're doing now, are no longer needed, because that advisory role for technology and robotics, because robotics is my area. Being an aerospace engineer, that's where the machines will do the heavy lift and shift the boring stuff, because they don't go on sick, they don't go to holiday, and providing they're in air cool conditions, they don't get too hot like we have today. But then we as humans, can bring a hybrid group of inclusive teams to take that advisory from the machine and decide how we configure our world. So could we actually say that as we want to evolve our world, then we've got three steps to do it. And for now, we can understand this in this context, but as we learn more about what works, we can expand that. And what I say is, it's the human at the centre of the industrial Internet of things is what delivers the new career path, where we leave no one behind. And people often say, well, does that mean that we'll all work five days a week? Quite frankly, I don't really care how often we work, we should choose those things. As we start to understand the things that unlock the world that we want to create, then we will navigate those journeys. But I would say those linear career paths, which, for us, on an inclusion agenda, particularly me as a female engineer, stopped my career in its tracks. Now, I found another way in. As one of the top ten Internet of things innovators. I'm an aerospace engineer, so I came back in because iiot is an engineering job. But many people would have lost that engineering career and never found a way back. So there is an endemic problem with the way our linear career paths are that don't really allow us to flex our talents. But Gen Alpha and Gen Z will just not tolerate that. They're like, well, that's a barrier I don't recognise, and that's a door that's closed. Well, I'll dig a tunnel. And so, actually, it chimes with the way in which Gen Alpha and Gen Z unlock it. So those 40,000 people that literally challenged the G 20 were, why have you not considered this for our future workforce? Why are you not looking at all these areas? And when you can speak to every person on the planet that's connected, that's a compelling set of evidence that means that the G 20 and the United nations listen, and I think we should let go of some of these ways of thinking of things. And the final point I want to make on that is when you present 2 million people's voices that are not normally heard to somewhere like the G 20, actually, what they say is, we're excited about that future. We're excited that 80% of the jobs that are being done now are no longer needed, because look at the sorts of things we're going to get to do. We can create the world we all want to live in. So our future workforce is very exciting for those of us that have got investments in a linear career path, possibly less exciting. But if you're listening to this podcast, you understand the impact that inclusion can bring and solving some of the world's biggest problems, then actually, this is a call to arms to say, see what else you can do, what can you do? Like I said earlier, about bringing 10% of what you do online to deliver that value to a wider population. So I know the arguments, I know it well. It's the core of my work. But quite frankly, it's a backward looking argument in my view. Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so I'm listening to you. Obviously, the theme is, leave no one behind and let's keep bringing us back onto those rails. And used human humanity, those words quite often in what you were just saying. Just because we can, it doesn't mean to say we should. So, is this path towards AI, technology, Skynet, whatever the technological nightmare could be because we can go this route, is it really moving the human needle forward in a way that makes our lives better? Or is it just creating a different version of the future than maybe going back to the earth, going back to a simpler way of life? We're just making it more complex because we can. Well, I mean, it's a Dr Jackie Taylor: brilliant question. And I go back to why Tim Bernard Lee created the World Wide Web for humanity to discover its own truth. All I'm talking about is making those resources available. So one of the questions we've talked about Web 30 today, whether anybody else knows that that's in Web science world, that's what we've talked about. And when we signalled to the world, Tim came to London. He did an event with me was the 14 October 2014. 9 October 2014. And he came and he did event to announce that Web 2.0 was over. Most people need an explanation for what that was about. And he said, don't worry about it, she's staying she'll do the detailed questions. But one of the questions he got when he did that speech was, do you regret it? Do you regret connecting those two protocols, saying, hello, world, and having the idea that humanity could discover its own truth? And I must admit I was a little bit taken aback by that question. And he was. And we sort of both looked at one another and thought about it, and he said, I think the underpinning point we have going here is you think that technology has created something that wasn't already there, but it was. It was there offline. All it's done is made it visible, because the one thing that's important about what we're talking about here is the World Wide Web is a fabric of permanence. You leave a digital shadow as a human that allows you to be who you are on that resource. And actually what we effectively do is take the humanity of who we are and create that. And I would say during this coronavirus, this pandemic, we've seen both. We've seen an uptick, a huge uptick in criminal activity, but we've seen a huge uptick in humanity federating together, supporting one another. I would say everything we're talking about here, about leave no one behind, whether we do it with tech and the future I'm painting or something else, it's there already. That actually is our humanity. That is what that know, I'm of the school. Call me Pollyanna. I'm of the school that I have the evidence that says this is right as well. But I'm of the school that says the majority of the world is looking not just to further its own future, but has a social good or a philanthropy about that. We don't do things to harm people. We obviously do things for ourselves, but we not do them against other people. And the World Wide Web allows us, technology allows us to put part of ourselves and our values into what we do. And so I would say we'll navigate that. That's why I say at the g 20 and the empathy economy I've created out of that is around that new social contract. We are renegotiating the social contract at a global level, which before the web, we had no mechanism for. But because of the pandemic accelerating that future, we are now renegotiating that across the world. I'm personally only involved with 180 countries, but it's happening everywhere. Joanne Lockwood: I was watching a programme on television last night, and it was about a group called, I think they call the Bandahof. They're a group of a global community based in lots of different countries where they effectively cut themselves off for technology. They have a religious core to their beliefs and why they can stay together. But they fundamentally are detechnologists. They have no technology. They may drive tractors and cars and have some. They're not completely isolationary. They do have telephones, but they don't have pcs, computers, iPads or television. So all those things. And I was just watching it, thinking what a simple way of life they have. But they do have some paralysed gender views. I mean, traditionally, the women will get involved in cooking, cleaning, preparing, traditional kind of female roles. And the women there say, well, this is fine, this is what we like doing. Okay? They've been socialised into thinking that's what they should be doing. And the dressing and the clothing they wear is very gender polarised and they're quite comfortable. They have a central bank account. They all produce for the commune, for the group. Nobody earns money, nobody has any possessions, not even the clothes they wear. They want a pair of shoes. They put in a requisition, and a pair of shoes arrives the next day. It's the ultimate online, in person Internet delivery. But without the Internet. Yeah. And it struck me that if we could get to a society where we were allowed to live without having to worry about producing, or we were producing for ourselves in a self sustainable way, in a community, would that simple life be amazing? And does this advance in technology get us nearer to that Star Trek utopia of a currency free world where everything is free and we all have equity and we're all able to succeed together? Or is it going to create more inequity by creating some who can and some who can't? Well, I think, again, another good question, Dr Jackie Taylor: and it'll be what we choose it to be. We associate with our own communities online. I mean, we are a community here discussing this today. And I think one of the things that gets me up out of bed in the morning is knowing that Gen Z and Gen Alpha have that ethos around who they are. The G 20 taking account of inclusion for this was because 40% of the world's gdp is influenced by them. So that change has already been made. And if you, as an economy, need to decide what you're going to do next, you have to take account of the humans are making their choice choices. And I would sort of argue whether you're doing it with technology the way we've discussed most of this podcast, or doing it the way you've described, joanne, then that's fine. That's actually the right thing, because that's what this is about, making our choices. It's not about for me, it's not anything to do with a homogenised version. This is a heterogeneous way of saying back to Tim's humanity, find its own truth, and therefore choosing its own way, choosing the world they want to live in. That's a heterogeneous piece where we all bring our own talents and needs and we navigate it. And that's really what I mean by that social contract. And it's different for us all. And for me, that is an inclusive world. If that community serves itself doing for what it's doing, I mean, it makes its own choices and it creates no harm, and it's likely reducing the resources the world needs because it's federating things the way you've described it, then actually it'll be more sustainable, it'll be kinder to the planet, it's certainly kinder to the community that choose to live that way. And really, there should not be a one model, there's a multiple set of models, but it's around, how do we coexist? How do we collaborate? Say that community got into some sort of trouble and needed help. I would hope then it could connect. It had means of connecting to a community elsewhere or the society at large to get that assistance. But the idea that they can live like that alongside the rest of us, doing it differently, brilliant. Isn't that what we're after? There will be some elements of technology pressing the emergency button where perhaps they will need to navigate by the world we've discussed. But if they can coexist in that way with all the other things we've talked about, ideally, that's what, as a human condition, we're looking for. We're looking for our place in the world. Joanne Lockwood: Social construct. We understand social constructs, we made stuff up, we could change it. Everything's kind of a social construct. We invented this. But Gen Alpha, Gen Z, millennials, baby boomers, these are social constructs of generation that are probably western focused, probably northern Europe or northern american focused. Does the concept of a Gen alpha exist in Africa? Does it exist in Beirut? After all this trouble, do we have these same constructs of generation across societies? And are we in danger of accelerating the growth of the haves and leaving the haves nots, or leaving the parts of the world that were underdeveloped? How do we accelerate them and not leave them behind? And that's really the core of why I Dr Jackie Taylor: accepted the expert advisor role to the UN, because if I'm to leave no one behind, that is the question that has to be answered. But it's equally the reason why the G 20 plan could not be fitted to the UN. Because the world is different. I'm something called the world's first smart cities are introducing something completely different into this. But what I do is, and what I did before this G 20 UN work was actually as a science diplomat on behalf of the UK, sit down with governments about looking at the way they were navigating their path. And essentially the biggest piece of work I did was in China. So I was in China for two and a half years, working with the Beijing government, who has its own view of the way their world they want, as we will all know. But interestingly, even in China, of the 600 cities that there are, and there are more than 600, but there were 600 that they needed to change, every single one of those was different. In Russia, it's the same. In Iran, it's the same. In Malaysia, in any of the polynesian populations, it's the same. The one common thing we have is where humanity gathers and creates its lifestyle, its communities. Every single one is different. So my new work in the Europe, now the UK, has left Europe is around 95,000 cities, 500 million people, with 6700 people looking to navigate that change. But that european intervention that we've started now, the UK, is brexited, can't be taken and put anywhere else. So the work I do in somewhere like Indonesia or Malaysia or anywhere in South America is fundamentally different. But the principles that we talked about today, they all apply. But what it is, is about communities. So the communities in any of the african nations, well, I never talk about Africa. I talk about them as the african nations, because whatever I might be doing or saying in Ghana will fundamentally be very different in Nigeria or Tanzania. But even within Tanzania, in East Africa, the communities in Tanzania are all different, because we, as humans, are the difference. And that community you talked about as largely unplugging from technology is a similar thing. There are millions of those communities across the world and they've navigated their path. But I think we tend to, in the western world, think somehow that the developing nations are behind. I'd like to remind everybody listening that China is considered a developing nation. It just uses a different model to our western one. And Japan, where I do an awful lot of work, is a western nation that has many similarities. It has a western philosophy, but has many similarities to somewhere like China or elsewhere like Australia. So I think the work I do, I see the world as a connected or disconnected community, and I very much work with the. In the UK, 13% of our population is disconnected in the way we've talked about challenge by challenge or by choice. And it's important to me that whatever we do in flight binary for the connected community, we must work out what the models and the resources and the intervention we can support is for those communities that choose by choice or challenge not to be connected. The fascinating thing for me is to see this work go from what was the original eight countries, the G eight, through to now, the G 180, and see how many more options we have. Now there's 180 countries instead of the original eight. And quite frankly, I learn more from the african nations than I believe I ever teach, or I ever. Whatever I put there, they teach me 1000 fold more. So I think that, interestingly, if we treat it as a globalised society, but we look at it as a context of communities, that's where we start to navigate it differently. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. Yes, it's fascinating, isn't it? As you're talking now, I'm thinking the future. We've talked about the kind of current we talked about the near future. You talked to me about Gen Alpha, Gen Z, and how we've got these defining characteristics of these generations and how they're motivated. So we can't be far away from Gen Beta, can we? So what do you think is going to be the defining moment for Gen beta? What are they going to be bringing in, what their expectations are going to be? Well, I mean, obviously I Dr Jackie Taylor: get my crystal ball out, polish it down and I've got evidence around that, but I can give you a real life illustration and an actual story around that, which I think encapsulates the answer to that. So Gen Z are the children of the millennials. So that's who they are. And largely they are the ones that are now influencing 40% of the economic spend. So one thing we know that Gen Beta will do will accelerate that. They largely will be the cohort using the 80 20 rule. They'll be where the direction of spend and influence is for definite. During Lockwood, I've done a lot of work supporting the safeguarding of our children. Criminals were very prepared for the pandemic and the move online. That's where they work. So one of the things they've done, they have accessed our children. And so a lot of my work has been around that, so I work with networks of people and do this work that way. I'm sort of struggling a little bit, because there's stuff I can't say because obviously, I don't know who's going to listen to this, but I think that one of the network groups who reached out in a bit of a flat panic around something that happened with something that organised online, was around end of year get togethers, as some of Gen Alpha were transitioning from primary school to secondary school in the UK. They were effectively, it's a rite of passage in the western world and in the UK. And so normally, they would have a get together as a cohort and that had been infiltrated by criminals. So I worked with this community and one of the mums said to me, she's a millennial and she's raising Gen Alpha, and she said to me, I sort of need some support. I know what you're going to say. I'm like, ok, sam, tell me. She said, well, we got downstairs this morning to find all three of them. She's got triplets. All three of them sat there dressed, breakfasted. There were two pads, two pens on the table. And my husband and I came down, they weren't late or anything, it was still morning and we're told, sit down. You've had how many months now? How many months have you had to navigate this new world and how well have you done? Not well. And so sit down, you can have coffee later. This is important. And they were given two pads, two pens, and told to take notes. And within the day, that household was reorganised to the way Gen alpha needed to be. And so if children of the millennials can literally just reorganise an entire household. And Sam was right, she knew what I was going to say. I said, you didn't stop them, did you? You didn't argue, did you? And she said, no, because actually, they had a point. And if they had a plan, or they were going to help us put a plan to make our family function together in this unusual situation, we needed to listen. And so those triplets, and they're six, I perhaps didn't say that. So they're six and they have reorganised that household, and it turns out their teacher is a friend of Sam's. And so Sam told the teacher to say, I'm not quite sure what is going to happen, but quite frankly, this has happened to me. And the teacher, who is an amazing teacher, said, I'm going to get them to support the class. So she got the whole class looking at the next year that they were moving into as part of their transition about what would you change about what this school is doing? We've had how many years putting this school system together and what's wrong with it? And I think that's what it's at. So what will Gen B to do? They will amplify that. It will be beyond that because they are the children of Generation Z and Gen Z started this whole thing off because they literally are biologically, as a generation, different. And I talk about these cohorts, which are not western cohorts, they're global cohorts from a web science point of view. So we are already preparing the technology for Gen beta because I'm lucky enough to have great nieces and nephews that are already telling me what they need. So I have done mentoring sessions for my six year old great nephew and he will launch his first business at Christmas when he's 7th because quite frankly, he just can't wait any longer to get this thing shifted. And my niece is really good at doing what she's told and I think that's what Jen Beta will do, there's no doubt about it, because they see things very clearly. Inclusion is who they are and they want to. Making the world a better place is the reason they open their eyes in the morning and get on. So if curious is Gen Alpha. I'm not quite sure what we call Gen Beta yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Me too. It sounds really Joanne Lockwood: exciting. And I think as long as we keep looking over our shoulder, making sure we're not leaving people behind, we think inclusively and we bridge those gaps where people are struggling and we don't speak always through a privileged lens and expect people to keep up without the tools. As long as the government, the infrastructure and people like yourself are still thinking about everybody, that's going to be the future. And didn't you tell me earlier that you produced some free resources for the isolation economy? Dr Jackie Taylor: Yes, as we came out of the isolation economy, a lot of what I've talked about today is the mechanism we use to unlock it. But I realised that actually all of this sounds marvellous, but people need to do something now. So I've created what I call the empathy economy because that's what I believe I've talked about to you today. And I've created some free resources. Before I launched my initiative to support a million entrepreneurs to move wholly into this empathy economy online I've produced some free resources. I've also produced some resources with the help of the mums that I've been safeguarding gen Alpha with around the Zoom platform, which is something we call a cybersafe resource, which is the way I've packaged what I've learned from safeguarding our children, and I'm packaging it out as how to be cybersafe in our new post isolation economy. I've got all of those resources and I want to make sure that a, you can connect with me, B, you can actually have these resources as are created, and C, you can have some of the resources we've already got, all for free. Because at the end of the day, we're talking about creating a ripple around the idea. We're all delivering value from an inclusion perspective to create the world that we all want to live in. And I feel it's part of my responsibility to pass those resources on for you to all pass on, because you are part of the early task force making that change. And I feel privileged to be able to do this podcast. I love the work that Joanne does. Obviously, I'd delight to have met her know dialogue, done all of this. But the reality of it is we are at the very front end of a change that is a global change. It's hugely exciting. So I feel it's my responsibility to pass those resources on and give you the means to get going. And obviously I'll make sure that that means that you get updates with anything else that I create, because it's going to be down to all of us. This is a very big change I'm talking about. So it's not just me and the people. I know you are all part of that change as well. Okay, so Joanne Lockwood: everyone's really dying to download these. Where do they find this stuff? Do they go to your website? Is there a link? Tell us. Well, exactly. Dr Jackie Taylor: So how do you do this, Jackie? That's tricky. So what I thought was I've created something out of the safeguard because it's like the tip of the iceberg. If I give you the start point, then you navigate it the way you want to navigate it. So I've created the resources with the help of the support of the mums of using the Zoom platform. Now you may not use the Zoom platform, but you possibly know other people that do. So you can just pass this on and it's zoom. So everybody knows how to spell that, Jackie. Now I'm a Jacqueline and that's Jacqui online, because that's what we've talked about today. Zoom, Jackie, Jacqui online. And if you go there, that gives you access to the cybersafe resource so that you can make any Zoom interactions. You have cybersafe and do give that away to anybody in your community or anybody you know that uses it. And then that gets you into my world, because, of course, I have a chance to do that without the cybercriminals knowing that we've done it. And then you'll get access to the other resources that will give you access to the rest of it, because it's how I create the entry point. So Zoom Jackie online is the entry point. Excellent. Well, I'll put that in the show notes. I'll Joanne Lockwood: make sure I tag you in on fact, as soon as we hang up, I'm going to go and cheque that myself and find out what it's all about. I'm quite excited. Now listen to you. Well, thanks, Jackie. It's been an amazing. I mean, we could carry on talking for another hour or so, and I'm sure we're down this rabbit hole. We could branch off to so many different topics and still only touch the tip of the iceberg, as we're saying. And it is an amazing talk we've had this morning. And I'm really excited that I'm sure the listeners are also being mesmerised by listening to you and that have loads of questions. So can they get in touch with you on LinkedIn or can they connect with you that way? Yes, using the Zoom Dr Jackie Taylor: Jackie online, it'll give access to those and you'll be able to connect with me. And my wider work is shared on LinkedIn. The link is there. I do have an empathy economy Facebook group, where we can have safe conversations about some of the specifics, probably even more detail than we talk today, because there are many pitfalls around all of this and we individually have our own perspective, so that's a safe space. And then I have again the Zoom Jackie online. I have a page on Facebook, which is called the Cybersafe entrepreneurs, where I will put information out there that I don't mind the criminals seeing, because it's always good to tell them we're onto them about how you can become cybersafe of the new things. So, for example, yesterday I talked about the origins of all of this work, because yesterday was the anniversary since 1939 of when the pre resources before we had the National Cybersecurity Centre in the UK of the people that moved into a place called Bletchley park. If you never visited, you should, because it's one of the amazing places. And it was the anniversary yesterday of the move into Bletchley park. And Bletchley park is where some of these resources are, too. So all of that, the cybersafe page, if you cheque the Cybersafe Entrepreneurs page, which is part of the Zoom download, cheque that out, you'll see all the good stuff. And then the little insider Bletchley tip, as we call it, about how to get code breakers lunch. Because the code breakers are the ones that effectively allowed us to win a war such that our democracy is able to have this conversation, say, and the bit I didn't put on there, but I'll tell you all, is code breakers lunch is officially sausage and mash, because that's what the code breakers ate in order to help to crack the enigma code. If you've got onion gravy with that, that would Joanne Lockwood: be even better. You have to have carrots Dr Jackie Taylor: with it. And you go to hot four. If you go to hot four to eat that in Bletchley park, that's the place that Alan Turing and the team sat down to eat their lunch. And you can go sit where they sat and eat sausage and mash. Fantastic. That sounds like a real Joanne Lockwood: treat. So just remind people it's Zoom Jackie online. And that's J-A-C-Q-U-I is it? That's right. Jacqui online. Wow. Thank you once again. Amazing. And also to the listeners, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Your support is very appreciated. If you want to get in touch with me, please do email me at jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. I would also encourage you to subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up over the next few weeks and months, and if you'd like to listen to this and you'd like to be a guest on the show, then please do let me know. I'm always looking for great, fantastic people to share their insight, and if you've got any comments or feedback, I'd also welcome that as well. So my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it has been an absolute pleasure to be your host for this podcast for you day, and I look forward to catching up with you next time. Bye.