--- title: "Building Bridges In A Biased World" episode: 169 date: 2025-08-01 guest: "Sonia Pérez" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/169-building-bridges-in-a-biased-world audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-169/audio.mp3 --- # Building Bridges In A Biased World Joanne Lockwood speaks with engineer and energy-industry leader Sonia Pérez about what it means to navigate a biased world while holding multiple, sometimes competing identities. Sonia reflects on her experience as a woman in a male-dominated sector, including the everyday pressure to “fit in,” the impact of sexist jokes and expectations, and the coping strategies she developed—such as downplaying her capability—to avoid pushback. A key thread is Sonia’s journey into understanding neurodiversity. Prompted by her daughter’s traits and early assessments, Sonia sought her own answers and was diagnosed with ADHD and giftedness. She describes the emotional impact of recognising a lifetime of masking, how neurodivergence can shape focus, motivation, and authority sensitivity, and why psychological safety matters when people are expected to constantly adapt. The conversation also covers wellbeing and mental health, including Sonia’s reflections on eating and binge patterns, links she has researched between neurodivergence and eating disorders, and the role of belonging and isolation. Throughout, both Joanne and Sonia underline the importance of “finding your village”—supportive networks and communities at work and beyond—and the need for continued culture change so people can take up space, be themselves, and thrive. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Incidental Journey into DEI - 03:41 — Journey to Self-Discovery and DEI - 07:00 — Navigating Sexism in the Workplace - 11:04 — Building a Supportive Village - 16:34 — Exploring Neurodivergence and Giftedness - 20:27 — Endlessly Curious, Easily Bored - 22:48 — Importance of Continuous Learning - 26:27 — Neurodivergence and Eating Disorder Link - 29:35 — Addictive Tendencies and Weight Fluctuations - 32:06 — ADHD, Hyperfocus, and Eating Challenges - 36:50 — Balancing Work and Hobbies - 37:19 — Valuing Full-Time Motherhood - 40:25 — Mum's Late-Life Independence Rediscovery - 45:52 — Family Over Career Prioritisation - 48:44 — Entrepreneurial Freedom and Life Balance - 49:50 — Advice to My Younger Self ## Key takeaways - The personal impact of neurodivergence and how self-discovery can drive inclusive action in the workplace. - Navigating stereotypes, masking behaviours, and the ramifications of “playing dumb” to fit into dominant cultures. - The critical role of building supportive networks (“villages”) and leveraging mentorship for career progression and wellbeing. - Advice for future generations on claiming space and demanding inclusion without sacrificing authenticity and mental health. - The links between neurodiversity, gender, and mental health, particularly around eating disorders and addictive tendencies. - Strategies for balancing career ambitions with the realities and privileges of parenthood, challenging traditional gender roles. - The ongoing evolution of diversity, equity and inclusion conversations, with an emphasis on visible progress, intersectionality, and collective action. ## FAQs ### Who are the speakers in this episode, and what are their backgrounds? The episode features Sonia Perez, an engineer and leader in the energy industry, who is also a passionate advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), focusing on neurodiversity and psychological safety in the workplace. Joanne Lockwood, Founder of SEE Change Happen, is the host, driving conversations on inclusive cultures and belonging. ### How did Sonia Perez become involved in DEI advocacy? Sonia’s journey into DEI was not planned. Her interest was sparked by personal experience—becoming a mother, navigating the balance between work and family life, and realising both she and her daughter are neurodivergent. These lived experiences prompted a deep, personal engagement with inclusion, neurodiversity, and mental health in the workplace. ### Has Sonia experienced challenges related to her ethnic background in the UK workplace? Sonia identifies as Spanish, and while she notes her skin is somewhat darker than the ‘average Brit’, she hasn’t experienced significant obstacles due to her ethnicity. She acknowledges some cultural stereotyping, such as jokes about siestas and Spanish laziness, but these have not fundamentally shaped her workplace journey. ### What are Sonia’s experiences as a woman in STEM and engineering? Sonia has often been the only woman in the room, both at university and professionally. She observes that, in male-dominated environments, she has felt compelled to “play dumb” to be accepted—prefacing expertise with questions rather than assertive statements, in order to avoid being labelled as arrogant or overconfident. This masking took a psychological toll. ### How does masking impact those who are neurodivergent or part of minority groups? Masking—adapting behaviour, tone, or even personality to fit in—can create significant cognitive and emotional strain, particularly for neurodivergent individuals and those from underrepresented groups. Sonia spoke about only recently realising the extent to which she masked her authentic self at work, which she now finds more difficult after understanding her neurodivergence. ### What advice does Sonia give younger generations, especially her daughter, about entering the workplace? Sonia emphasises the importance of building a supportive network, or ‘village’, to counteract systemic barriers and negative voices. She encourages new entrants to “take your space,” speak openly about important issues, and not to acquiesce to the status quo, noting progress comes from challenging and changing existing norms. ## Transcript Sonia Pérez: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 169 with the title Building Bridges in A Biassed World. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sonia Perez. Sonia is an engineer and leader in the energy industry who has become a passionate DEI champion, advocating for inclusion, neurodiversity and psychological safety in the workplace. When I asked Sonia to describe her superpower, she said that it is to turning lived experiences into inclusive leadership and most importantly, action. Hello, Sonia, welcome to the show. Sonia Pérez: Hi, Joanne, thanks for having me. Absolutely brilliant. So you're Joanne Lockwood: the opposite end of the UK to me. So I'm in Portsmouth and you're up in Aberdeen, is that right? So is it. I know us Brits, we like to talk about the weather. So what's the weather like up there at the moment? Is it. So we're in, what, middle of March? Sonia Pérez: Yeah, well, it's freezing cold. It's kind of snow. Have you had some Joanne Lockwood: snow recently? No, but the forecast says maybe. Again, Sonia Pérez: we seemed like we were getting into spring and then it just went wrong again. Yeah, it's down to the zeros here. So, Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I think it's an icy blast over the whole country. So, yeah, is what it is. So you've. You're an engineer by profession and obviously a leader as well. We talked about that. So how have you kind of lent into the DEI journey or the EDI journey, and what impact has your own lived experience and background? You know, we talked in the green rooms live about intersectionality or the depth of our personalities and our lived experience. How's that impacted you at work and in your life? Well, I guess Sonia Pérez: I came into DEI incidentally. It wasn't really thought of or on purpose, but. But it was more my Lift journeys. I became a mom six years ago and well, I guess my experience as an engineer and as a leader before was different to after. Suddenly you have to, well, I guess balance your work life with your family and your personal life. Well, there isn't much of personal life, to be honest, if you have to compensate work with children. And at that point we started suspecting that my daughter neurodivergent and. And then I hear, well, this is genetic. It's like, oh, okay, well, I wonder if it's me too. So we start investigating. It's like, well, yeah, that's definitely me as well. And how. I guess I was going through a really difficult time as well personally. And how that kind of neurodiversity, my new ish identity as a mother, as a single mother actually, and, and the mental health and so on. Well, it basically just took me into a really steep learning curve about dei, but one that I actually am really proud of. Wow. So you're. Joanne Lockwood: What's been the biggest challenge you faced, you know, as a, as a, a woman. Can I use the phrase a woman of colour? Because you're, you're not white British, are you? By, by, by, by background, has that impacted your experience in the workplace as well? I wouldn't say so. Sonia Pérez: I think even though my skin may be a little bit darker than the British. Well, not every British obviously, but just I would say it's still white in that, in that part. So I don't think I've had, if anything, people like the colour of my skin. Tanned, I suppose is. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. What's your original background? Is it Portuguese? Spanish? That sort of general area? Spanish, yeah, I guess that's general area. The one Sonia Pérez: thing that I find about my nationality is the jokes about, you know, how we are lazy and how we sleep siestas all the time and people who know me for a very long time will confuse my name by someone else's who's Spanish or. Yeah, like we're interchangeable. Joanne Lockwood: I suppose there is. If you've got a US background, you're more likely to be Hispanic, Mexican, I guess, as opposed to European Spanish. But like the Brits, the Spanish also had an empire and conquered half the world and exported our culture and language and religion to other parts. And the Portuguese did it as well, and the Dutch. We're all guilty of spreading our culture to other parts. Unwanted often. No, Sonia Pérez: but I haven't really faced the big, I guess, challenges due to my national. I think I'm okay. I'm an immigrant and you know, you will Always find people who would ask you to go back home. But frankly, it's not really been an experience that's shaped my life. It's maybe happened once or twice, but I know other people get it a lot worse. So you've been in Joanne Lockwood: engineering, STEM sector, for most of your career. It has a reputation for being very male dominated, for want of a better expression. How have you found that challenge to navigate as a, as a, as a, as a young woman to start with and then developing your career and becoming more experienced? Sonia Pérez: Well, frankly, I. Yes. So I've always been, well, either the only woman in the room or one of the very few back from university. I think at the time I really wasn't aware of any difference in treatment. But when I look back now I, I see it, I see it now. I think, well, I felt like I couldn't really be myself, how to fit in with all the other men. I had to behave like them. And that didn't really. It felt awkward because it's like you're acting. There's always this kind of, well, sexist jokes and you kind of have to laugh with them and it's not really funny, but I don't know, sometimes you can become an object. I think as I've like once finished university and I started work, I find everyone quite supportive of me. I've been offshore in platforms, I've been as well in the oil and gas industry, but in onshore surveys, I think I kind of fall into this. I know I'm not the only one who does it because I've seen other colleagues do the same. I play dumb and that works quite well because I think people expect me to be dumb. So rather than the arrogance, like if you are very like assertive or you, you're sure of yourself, you're confident, then they think you are being arrogant. And if you make a mistake, then, well, that's kind of, it kind of explodes in your face. So playing dumb kind of works for, for a lot of people. So what you're effectively saying is Joanne Lockwood: you're, you're appeasing people to ensure that you are successful by not creating waves. And you know that if you, as you say, become assertive, become more dominant, then you won't be accepted as much, so you have to hide who you are really. Just an intelligent, capable engineer has to kind of limit their own potential by dumbing it down. Is that, is that, is that what you're saying you've learned to do? Yeah, I suppose. Like when Sonia Pérez: maybe I'm asking a question I mean, I know the answer to it, but, you know, you don't. I think people feel a bit. A bit more like, defensive when a woman challenges them. So you don't really challenge them straight on. You ask questions and you kind of play dumb. Like, you know, is it really. I mean, I'm not too sure about this. You know, it's not like you just go and tell them. And I know there's a big difference between the way I did it as a leader and how other colleague who are men dealt with it. But then they didn't have the pushback that I did. Right. So Joanne Lockwood: how do you, how do you succeed yourself in a world where you have to kind of minimise like that? How do you take advantage of opportunities where people maybe see you as not confident because that's the way you're portraying yourself? I don't have an answer to that. Sonia Pérez: I would love to know the answer. Um, I think, well, and throughout my life, I would say I've achieved quite a lot. How did I do it? Well, I think, well, looking back, it's more about the people who, you know, is the networking. It's. There is people with whom you can be yourself and they will respect you and they value you for who you are because they can see everything about you. And then there is the other people who, well, feel a bit more threatened by me or other people or other women showing who they really are. I would say I had a lot of support, but, you know, my network, my village, let's say. So it's always about doing the right thing, being kind to other people, being respectful, always trying to learn different perspectives. Because in that way people start kind of wanting to work with you. They start like learning from you. They see the value in you. I think that's what got me where I was. But I don't know how it continues from there because it really depends on who you're working with. Yeah, Obviously Joanne Lockwood: your daughter is going to be entering the workplace at some point soon, or maybe not soon, but in years to come. What advice would you give her entering the workplace and building her career, knowing what you know about how you've had to integrate into the workplace? It's quite deep. Thought Sonia Pérez: I would. The first thing would be to build her village. That's going to be really key because there's always going to be people who will want to see her fail. And probably it's not going to be personal, but it's more going to be like, like a more systematic belief. So. But there will be people who want her to succeed. So it's about finding that village, that network that is going to support her, that's going to give her that kind of perspective that you may lose when people, when you don't feel like you can be yourself or you start like, what other people think or say start rubbing on you, like, I'm not good enough. There's always this village who will tell you, even in the times where you don't believe in yourself, that you are really good just the way you are. So I would say that's the most important thing. And I think take space, take your space. I mean, it's the. The more you talk about things, the more open you are, the more you demand, you know, to be just like everyone else and having the same opportunities, the more likely is that you will get them. I think, you know, if. If people just remain quiet and accept the state of school, it's never going to change. And that's, you know, what the previous generations to us did. We're not starting from scratch, you and I, and, you know, our children won't start from scratch because we are fighting that battle as well. Yeah, I mean, we mentioned psychological safety Joanne Lockwood: in the opening. It's not right that you have to kind of hide part of you. If you think about some of the four tenets of psychological safety, one is inclusion safety. Being yourself, isn't it? And having to cover yourself means that you're fitting into other people's expectations, which is a huge mental cognitive load to have to think about that all the time, isn't it? Sonia Pérez: It is, yeah. I think, to be honest, I didn't realise I was doing it until very recently. Just when I. I mean, neurodiver divergence, what is that? I mean, back when I was younger, it was only boys that were neurodivergent and just, you know, the ones that showed neurodivergence in a. In a very stereotypical way. So a lot there is a lost, lost generations of, well, people who didn't get diagnosed at time. At the time. So at the moment, I mean, I got diagnosed, what was it, like a year ago. So I'm still learning who I am. And I remember when I got the diagnosis and I called my mom to tell her and I wasn't sad, I wasn't angry, I was okay. But I burst into tears and I was trying to explain my mom, I'm okay. I'm actually okay. I don't know what I'm crying. It's just like this overwhelm of suddenly just looking Back and seeing, you know, all of this happened because of this kind of how my brain works and how I was trying to fit in with everyone else. So it was quite an overwhelming feeling realising that I've been masking my whole life without even knowing. And now I, I'm not so good at masking anymore. I don't know why. But now that I know that, you know, this is who I am, it's a lot harder for me to try to pretend to be someone that I'm not. As far as age, experience. And, Joanne Lockwood: you know, you get to that point, as you say, you, you know, it's not you. You know, you just, it just. This is who you are and you're not having to sort of COVID up things that you, you previously would have done because you thought you were failing. But actually it's just part of your identity. And yeah, I think the older you get though, the less, the less tolerant you are of, of. Of people's perceptions of you. And you're more like to be yourself, I think, become more confident in your ability. And the thing is, I do Sonia Pérez: have a lot of people. Well, my family is. Well, we're really close, even in the distance, but they are very supportive and they've been learning as well. Now, like the. Well, my stepdad started studying psychology just to understand, you know, my daughter and me, like, how near the virgins and my mom's read all the books in the world. Now it's a shame because, you know, they didn't know before and neither did I. And now is kind of trying to catch up with all of this. My friends are very supportive and there is a lot of people at work that are very supportive of me as well. And so this is really nice to see that, you know, it's okay for me to be who I am. Joanne Lockwood: You said in your notes you submitted for the show that your, if you like, awareness of your own neurodiversity stemmed from your daughter's neurodiversity and the diagnosis of her. And you saw traits in her that you'd recognise in yourself. So what were the key things maybe in your daughter that you spotted that resonated with you? It wasn't Sonia Pérez: obvious to start with. She was three years old when this started and it was behavioural. And me, I've always been a really calm child. I never had like any issues. But she. A few years down the line, we figured out it was sensory processing. She had a big issue with that, especially like clothes and stuff. I've never experienced that. But she Started. Well, when we start looking at that behaviour as a very young child, it sometimes leads into neurodivergence and how children understand the world and how they're processing information. So I wondered if, like, is it adhd? Is it autism? And then apparently something came up that I had never heard about, which was giftedness. And I thought giftedness, okay, well, the kind of conversations that my daughter was having with me when she was three years old were not what you would expect from a child is like, that's the conversation I would expect to have with an adult talking about, like, well, really philosophical matters like, you know, death and pregnancy, miscarriages. I had just had one. And relationship breakdowns and I, it just caught me completely off guard. And so giftedness, ADHD and autism have very similar traits, actually. And I didn't, I knew nothing about that. So it's not recognised in the UK yet, but it's in, in the US and in Spain and maybe in other countries as well. So I personally didn't think she got that from me. And it's this thing about ADHD and being a woman as well that you, you always think that you're not smart enough. For example, I was in, in class and I was always a really good student and I had really good grades, but I just couldn't pay attention when the teacher was kind of giving the lecture. And I thought that's because I'm not, you know, smart enough. And so, yeah, I. She's not diagnosed yet because she's very young. But I got my diagnosis and I was really surprised to see that not only I had adhd, but I was gifted. And, well, I always thought I wasn't that smart. So what, you know, you talked about Joanne Lockwood: gifted and how has that manifested itself in your career? There aren't many women still in STEM subjects and I've always associated, rightly or wrongly, with neurodivergence. Being engineer y, technical type people, they communicate better with things than they do with people often. Do you think that has had an impact on you being able to focus on engineering topics? I don't know. I mean, for Sonia Pérez: it's. It's a bit difficult knowing where, you know, the, the autism, ADHD and giftedness kind of ends to start where the other one begins. For the giftedness has been more about feeling easily bored. I mean, I need a challenge and my motivation cycles kind of peak when I, I get something new, something challenging, something I'm learning from, but kind of dissipates quite quickly and easily. I say, like, the other thing was authority. If someone doesn't justify something, well, reasonably well to me, then I, I find it difficult to, to, to follow it. I think from, from the ADHD point of view, I am not very good with details and you would know that. You particularly because I turned up to this meeting a month ago on the 14th, on the 14th of March, because I scanned through like, you know, reading and I seen the 14 and yeah, this is not the first time it happened. So I knew it was probably my fault that no one turned up to the call rather than someone else's. So, you know, the numbers aren't the best for me, the details, but I'm really good with abstract thinking. I'm really good with empathy, for example, like talking to people, understanding what's important to each person and building that trust. From the engineering point of view, what I was really keen on is understanding why things happen, how things work. It's like that kind of puzzle. I've never been diagnosed. I'm not sure whether Joanne Lockwood: I was ticking off boxes, but I share a lot of your kind of thinking there. You know, every time I find something new, I want to rip it apart, put it back together, rip it apart, put it back together. And then once I've done that a few times I go, yeah, bored with that now. What's next? Oh, another shiny thing, Another. So I've got a whole, whole catalogue of things I've had a good go at and I've become a very quick expert on and then push it to one side because my background's in it and I found that extremely challenging for most of my life and really got involved with it and all of a sudden in my 40s, I got bored with it. I just thought, I can't do. I've had enough of this, it's not exciting me anymore. I want to find a new shiny object. I share a lot of that with you. It's important to keep stimulating the brain and I'm either, I'm either a hundred percent in or I'm a hundred percent out. I don't, I don't do it in the middle. Oh yeah, yeah. Sonia Pérez: Middle grounds don't really exist in my head. No. Yeah. If Joanne Lockwood: I'm not interested, if I'm. If I'm not into it, I'm not into it. That's it. I'm not, you're not going to persuade me. But to me that, that's, that's quite powerful because I can become very obsessive and very hyper focused on something and achieve a lot and I'll I'll focus on it for weeks. 24 by 7 I'll be thinking about it, I'll be lying in bed, I'll be waking up with it. I want to put it into action and say something else will occur. And I focus on that. And it's like. So yeah, it's interesting that it's a great attribute to have if you want to get stuff done. As long as you've got someone behind you picking up what you've left and saying, right, okay, that's ready to go. You take it on from here, isn't it? So my Sonia Pérez: mentor, a very wise person, once told me like, you don't have to know everything, you just have to surround yourself with people who can fill in your gaps. And I thought that was really helpful and useful. I mean this is. A lot of people just tend to just take everything in and they don't know how to, I guess, share that work and delegate. But for me that comes naturally. I think not everyone sees it as a strength. The thing is, I think you know, as an individual you're bound to have gaps. No one can know everything, no one can be good at everything. But if you know what you're really good at, then you can focus on that and there'll be other people who are really good at the things that you're not so good at. So yeah, I think that works really well. Yeah, there's another quote. I can't remember if this is accurate or not, but Joanne Lockwood: I think it's something like. Something like if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room because you want to be able to grow and learn and so find a different room to help you grow and learn. So I think, yeah, it's important that you don't have to be an expert at everything and you don't need to be the authority on everything. And it's important that you have your own learning zone. How's your daughter finding that sort of the way her brain works? Is it a very similar way to yours in terms of being very hyper focused and picking things up and then moving on quickly? Sonia Pérez: It's hard to say at this stage. I think I can already see what she's really good at. I think she's really good with numbers at the moment. Her logic thinking is, well, outstanding. But then she struggles with other things like sitting down and actually get. I mean if you don't sit down and force yourself a little bit, you never get into hyper focus. And I think she struggles with the Kind of sitting down, I think, like. Yeah, no, I think, like, she's really smart and she just fits in wherever she goes. I think she's the queen of masking, though. But she's. Yeah, she's. She's really outstanding. Fabulous, fabulous. Joanne Lockwood: So in the notes, it says here you've chaired numerous villages, if you want to use your word, women's support groups, neurodiversity network groups, internal employee resource groups. And presumably you've also been involved with, what, industry body groups as well, to promote women or neurodivergent women across the STEM sector. Sonia Pérez: Well, it's something that I'm trying to do just now with the imicci. So I'm a member of the imicci. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a really, I guess, obvious next step at work. I do the Women and Women plus group, which is basically for any underrepresented gender. We've got two others. We've got the LGBTQ and then we've got neurodivergent group. I'm a member of that one too. But, yeah, I'm keen to do as much as possible so that, you know, I can make a difference, a positive difference. Are we. That's Joanne Lockwood: the question I often tell myself with and other people with, we're better than we were. But are we really making progress? Sonia Pérez: I would say yes, definitely, because I can see, like, the difference between when I was growing up to now. I mean, people are talking about everything now. We're talking about neurodivergence. We didn't do that before. We're talking about, well, gender and gender identity, we're talking about sexuality. We're talking about so many different things that we didn't do before. I can see. I mean, all these things take time. I don't think we will see the end of it in this generation, but I can certainly see a huge difference. And the fact that there are so many people talking about it, people are now rising up and talking about these things. That's really important. Not everyone felt safe to do it before, and there was a lot of things that we didn't know about. Joanne Lockwood: You mentioned the notes that you've had some challenges in your life around your own mental health, going through an eating disorder phase of your life. Do you think that's all linked to some of your neurodiversity, or do you think that they're separate threads? Sonia Pérez: I'm glad you're asking that question. I did investigate this. I did some research, because I wondered, and there is a very clear link with my Neurodivergence and my gender. So the eating disorders specifically, um, I've not been diagnosed with this, but I know that I've always had a bit of an unhealthy relationship with food and my weight. And, you know, it can either be through, you know, just eating compulsively or being really fixated on my weight. So it can go both directions. I know, like, when I was growing up, when I was a teenager, you know, like, you want to fit in. And I think I didn't know back then, but obviously I sensed that, you know, maybe struggled a little bit more to fit in with the. With the rest of the people. And, you know, body image is really important whether you fit in or not. Especially, like, as a woman or as a girl. Now you are expected to look in a specific way. And this is almost like you. Yeah. To please men and. Well, yeah, so a lot of it, like, I think, you know, back then, I wouldn't say I had anorexia, I wouldn't say I had bulimia, but I would say that I was really obsessed with my weight, and I was probably at my lowest weight. And then the thing that happens to me is eventually a snap out of it. When you were talking about before, like, you get really obsessed with something for a while, and then you lose interest. So that happens to me as well with this kind of things. So. So I lost interest. And then I think, you know, the emotional eating came, like, you know, as you grow up and you start getting more responsibilities, you. You again, you feel like you don't fit in. In a lot of instances, it's almost like you're. You're on your own fighting with the whole world, you know, and. And you just feel like kind of sense of isolation, of lack of, sense of belonging. That kind of need for a deep connection isn't really met. Even though, you know, you may have friends and a partner and family, you know, you're really close to all of them. But I. I found, like, that kind of sense of belonging wasn't never there, like, 100%. And I started, like, compulsively eating. I mean, I have a sweet tooth. That doesn't help, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, as you grow older, that becomes more difficult because you have even more responsibilities, you know, at work. If you. If you kind of went up in your career, you know, you progressed, if you have married children, and, you know, relationships are difficult as well. All the kind of responsibilities in the household and. And then you eat, you eat and you eat like, all the Kind of stuff that you shouldn't be eating. So, yes, I noticed. Well, in my research I saw that. Can't remember the figures exactly, is in the LinkedIn videos. But basically, neurodivergent women are a lot more likely to get an eating disorder than any other. Well, any other person. Joanne Lockwood: Explained to me that I personally have what I would call an addictive tendency, so I tend to binge on stuff. So I had a poor relationship with alcohol most of my life. I would never describe myself as an alcoholic, but I used to consume excess amounts regularly, often in binge format. You know, two or three days I would be drinking very, very heavily and then a habit during the week. And my weight has also tended upwards most of my life and on occasions I've done something about it and I've lost 10 stone, give or take, and I've put it back on over the course of another three or four years. So I've got this look at my weight chart. It looks like an M. So I go up and then down, then back up again and then back down again. So I'm currently on my downward cycle. I've lost about seven and a half stone in the last year and a bit. So, yeah, I get what you're saying. That becomes, if I see a buffet, I don't have a stop button. It's kind of, oh, I want a bit of that, I want a bit of that, I want a bit of that. Suddenly your plate is like a volcano erupting all over the place. But it's so difficult to take one of something. So I know that about me now. And that's why I often ask other people to pick me a plate. Can you fill my plate up for me? They go, why? I say you'll fill it up reasonably, I'll overindulge. So, yeah, that's the secret I've learned is get somewhere else to fill your plate and then don't go back for seconds, just stop at that point. So, Sonia Pérez: so what I, what I read was that ADHD is. People with ADHD are more likely to experience binge eating disorder because that kind of impulsivity. Well, we are more likely to get into addictions for me, with chocolate, maybe bread as well. And people with anorexia, autism. Well, in particular women are more likely to, to experience anorexia and bulimia because of that kind of, well, rigidity, being rigid with their habits. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think you're right. You become very focused on other things and eating is just either something you're fixated on or you're not bothered by it. And I go through phases where if I'm in hyper focus mode, I could spend all day and think I suddenly feel hungry at the end of the day thinking, oh, I haven't eaten today, have I? And you just forget all about it, don't you? So that's actually something Sonia Pérez: that happened to me quite a lot and probably a lot of people with ADHD is that. And I went to a nutritionist who's worked with people with ADHD before and she was saying that you need an alarm because you can't go like, if you go into hyper focus mode then you're going to forget, you're going to ignore your hunger cues and then you're going to be like so hungry that you know, you want to do with like healthy food, you'll just want the unhealthy stuff and you'll binge eat and then you know, everything is just going to go mad, like your sugar levels and so yeah, an alarm and just being conscious. But yeah, when you get. Sometimes I find that like, you know, this kind of hyper focus happens when in the least convenient time and then it's like you just can't get up. I mean, I just need to continue. It's like this, this is like this kind of supernatural force keeping you from, you know, eating, drinking, going to the toilet. Yeah. Now Joanne Lockwood: I get that it's hard sometimes when you, you have this intersectional makeup not to focus on sort of parts of your identity because if you're not careful, you get labelled as being one thing or another thing. But really that's not what excites you, that's not who you are. And do you find that if you're not careful talking about neurodiversity or some of your mental health challenges or something that's gone in your past suddenly creates this, this label about you that you don't really want to own. Sonia Pérez: Yes. And that's why I thought for, for a while, whether I wanted to, to discuss this or not, because what I've learned is that neurodiversity presents very differently to different people. And I mean usually it's not even one, you experience more than one. At the same time, mental health, culture, gender, there's so many different things. This, I mean the way I and other friends that, or colleagues that I know are new to the virgin. I mean we are so different. Even me, my daughter, we are so different. I'd have Joanne Lockwood: to ask you about what you do, you know, day to day. Cause I noticed the notes you Work onshore and onshore and offshore. Offshore. Sounds to me like the rigs. Is that. Is that the rigs you're working on or is that offshore somewhere else? Sonia Pérez: No, that was in the rigs, but that was. That was many ages ago before I became a mum. So I did some. Yeah, so I went to some rigs in the North Tea. So what sort of engineering were you doing there? Is Joanne Lockwood: it. Was it the drilling part? The. What's your specialism? If you like. Well, mechanical. That's what I did. Mechanical. So designing motors or cutting or. Or structural. Sonia Pérez: I don't design anymore, unfortunately. It's more like checking that someone else's design or, you know. Yes, we are checking in the energy industry that things are safe. You know, imagine like if something went wrong offshore. Well, I mean, it's happened before, so we don't have to imagine it. And that's what we are trying to stop. So you're in sort of QA and risk and quality assurance, Joanne Lockwood: sort of, sort of side. Ah, okay. So obviously becoming a mum changed a lot of your career aspirations and availability to get in stuff. So what's your new passion? Is it about being more in a leadership role or. Sonia Pérez: I would say, yeah, leadership was probably one of my. One of the things I was really interested in. I'm not in a leadership position now, but I was for six years and I found that, well, I got into it by accident, let's say. You know, we were talking about how when you've done this for a while, you just lose that motivation. You want something else. And the one thing that came up was a leadership position. And I got it. And I would say I quite like working with people. I like helping people. I like making a difference to people's lives. Because, you know, work is not just about work. It doesn't end there. You know, it kind of follows the person, whatever the goal. So that was something I was quite passionate about. I'm not sure what I'm passionate about now. I like my hobby, say I have one, because I don't have time for more. But writing is something I really enjoy. And do I see for the notes, you've got two Joanne Lockwood: master's degrees, one's one's in engineering and one's in creative writing. So you've. You've thrown yourself into the writing as quite a big hobby. Sonia Pérez: It's quite big. And it's like, well, maybe, I don't know, who knows, maybe one day I'll. I'll be a published writer. Who knows? So Joanne Lockwood: you've written Lots of novels. But you've never published them, is it, is that, is that where you are with it? Well, I wouldn't say I've written lots. I've Sonia Pérez: written two and a half. Written two and a half Joanne Lockwood: and then. Suddenly there is not many. There's not a lot of time. It's like, Sonia Pérez: you know, like with writing or when as an engineer I work in front of a computer all day. So my hobby is not one that actually encouraged me, encourages me to socialise and go outside. Which makes it really hard for me just to switch from one side from, from, you know, one job in front of the computer to the next one in front of the computer on my own. I think I, you know, I struggle a little bit to, to find the time. Yeah, I Joanne Lockwood: can, I can imagine. Yeah. In today's modern life there's always something to do, isn't there? As I say, being a full time mum is a full time job and we shouldn't, yeah, shouldn't make excuses for that. I think it's a necessary part of, of development because I look back at my childhood and my, my mum was a stay at home mom. She didn't, she effectively stopped work but she got married at the age of 23, 24 and she had three children. I was the first and she didn't go back to work or start working again until her very late forties when we were all, I think my youngest brother was probably 12, 13 at the time, going to school and she became a teacher. So she got into teaching and into the junior and primary school. But she was a very great mother and I value my upbringing of having a full time mum. I can't imagine what it'd be like to be a latchkey kid these days where you don't have a full time parent around. So it's a real challenge though trying to divide up your desire to be a great parent versus your need to earn a living. It's a challenge we have, isn't it? Well, I would say apart Sonia Pérez: from the need of earning a living which, you know, most of us have, it's also, you know, that sense of achievement. I mean being a parent is not something I would change for anything in the world. I love it. But there is more to me than that and I think there is more to a lot of us than being a parent. There is a lot of, you know, dimensions to, to who we are and I think, you know, whether it's my job or, you know, my hobbies or, you know, something else, I find it important to Find that time to, to actually grow, to, to learn well, just to get that sense of achievement from life. I've heard it said several times that, you know, as a woman, Joanne Lockwood: you, you, you have to choose. You know, there is a choice to be made between a career and motherhood or parenthood that often men don't have to have to have that dilemma. And I don't want to stereotype anybody here, but have you found that challenge yourself where there's a conflict between having a career and being a great mum or being the mum you want to be as being in conflict? I would say so, yes. But I would argue that men are Sonia Pérez: in the same position. While women often choose family, men are forced to choose work. So I mean, we are all sacrificing something. Men are sacrificing time with their families, while women may be sacrificing time, well, their careers. I, I just recently heard something from in the Women plus erg as support group at work and it was really, it was quite profound. It's like you can have everything, just not everything at the same time. And I was good because I thought, like, I didn't feel like I could have the career that I want plus, you know, be, be a mother and be with my, my child. But that is just now, isn't it? Life is long. Hopefully life is long and things will change. Yeah. It's interesting as you say, that Joanne Lockwood: my mum, that I'm a super fan of my mum in 86, something like that. 86 this year and my father passed away a couple of months ago. I haven't been in a nursing home for a couple of years and she's now establishing her single life, if you like. You know, she's now rediscovering that having no responsibility for another person, not being codependent on anybody, being able to make her own decisions on things that she probably couldn't have done for most of her married life. And she's now finding this freedom. But it's taken her a while to become comfortable with not having to ask or not have to think about something, just being ultimately selfish, doing what she wants to do. And you say that you can't have every, you can't have everything, just not all at once. So I think she's now having the life that she did. She had to give up or park in her early days to now experience in her late 80s. And she's going, she's going for it big time. She's. I want to keep going till I'm 100 at least. And yeah, if you use it or lose it, as she keeps saying. So you've got to keep active, you've got to keep out there, get doing stuff. She goes to yoga, she goes to Palati's classes in the local town hall. She meets with her friends for coffee and yeah, she does loads of stuff now she's busy as I am. It's incredible. Yeah. Really, really, really powerful woman and I love it a bit. That is quite inspirational. Yeah. I think probably Sonia Pérez: in the past, both women and men and, well, anyone. I don't think anyone had the choice to do whatever they wanted to. It was more like what they were expected to do, the role they were supposed to take in society. But it is now. You asked me before, do you think it's changed? Well, the fact that your mom is able to now have a different, very different life, I guess, is a proof of that. Yeah, it's. Joanne Lockwood: But she lived a very traditional married life. She got married in 1963, so she was born in the 30s. My father was born six years older than her. And they were kind of a product of their upbringing where man goes to work, woman stays at home sort of thing. And that was kind of predestined from the indoctrination their parents had given them and the village they were being supported by. My father was in the navy, so it was a very much. The navy was men and the naval wives were women at home or living in naval quarters. And I came along and my mum became a mum and I guess that was. She didn't know any different. And even when I got married in the late 80s, that was still the model. Women were kind of still really expected to stop being a worker and become a mother and a stay at home parent. And it was. I think we didn't see any evolution of that. Maybe it was the Spice Girls and Girl Power that came along in the 90s that started waking people up to the idea, you can have choice here. Yes. And I think perhaps Sonia Pérez: nowadays we see more women going to work and men staying at home with their children. I mean, there is some traditional still kept there because. I don't know. But my experience and the experience of many other people I think as well is that, yes, we can go and work if we choose to. We still have to deal with most of the stuff at home as well. So it becomes like. Yeah, it becomes like a lot. A lot. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: we still have gendered roles, don't we? And someone said to me, you know, it's all very well being having a stay at home dad and a go to work mum. But there's that point when your child falls over and bangs their head or bangs their knee, who do they scream? Do they scream for dad or do they scream for Mum? Often they scream for Mum. So whatever happens, mum still becomes the primary responsibility for keeping the child alive. As fathers often, even though they're committed, they don't have the same relationship with their child, I don't think. And that's not a fault, it's just a biological thing. I think I am seeing this Sonia Pérez: changing quite a lot. I mean, not with everyone in every household. There's still a lot of traditionality in. But I can see that being a lot more involved. Probably 50, 50, sometimes even more. But yeah, I guess you still see a lot of the more traditional kind of thinking in life still. Yeah. When our children were young, I Joanne Lockwood: was working all over the world. I worked for. Worked up in Scotland for a year as well, near Glasgow. And I missed out on a huge amount of our child's development at that time. And we have. We had the luxury of. My wife was able to stay at home a lot this time, so. Cause I was working and I look back on it not with regret, but with a certain sadness that I wasn't there for a lot of their lives. And they talk about this, that and the other. I see photographs and they go, where was I? And I work out and go, oh yeah, I was probably in Scotland. Oh yeah, I was probably in America or in Europe somewhere. And so, yeah, we all trade something, don't we? Sonia Pérez: Exactly, yeah. And I, I don't think there is still like a huge choice. I mean, when you look at the parental leave, I mean, moms get a lot more than that and it just kind of falls into the same stereotypes. I personally think if I have to make a choice, I'm going to choose my family. Because I know that in, well, five, 10, 20 years time, I'm not going to regret, you know, the, the meeting I didn't turn up to, the job that I didn't get or, you know, there's things like that. There's always going to be more of those. But family, there's only one. But I don't think everyone has that choice. As I say, like when, when we kind of expect dads to go back to work so soon. I mean, some of them might want to. I don't think everyone wants to. And that's the thing, the choice in the, in still many countries, UK being one of them is poor. Yeah, it is. We are at the End of the day, Joanne Lockwood: maybe not. We're money driven, but we're money dependent, aren't we? We have to pay the rent, put food on the table and if we can't, our lives become, become sad. So money doesn't buy you happiness, but no, money buys you sadness. And it's, it's trying to find that middle ground between balancing your family and I, I think I, I found myself making those choices to keep the family alive. And then you just become, it becomes what you do and then it's only when you, you know, I got into my 50s, I look back and thought I want a different second half of my life. I want, I want to do things differently and I, I want to see my daughter or son and I want to be part of it. I, my wife and I, we're kind of soul mates now. We spend all of our time together and we become very co dependent on each other more than a mile apart without pining. My attitude to home life and family has changed completely during my 50s. So yeah, I think we have to wake up one day and go, what's really important to me? What do I really want? And almost jettison all that BS of social expectations. So that's the awakening that I had recently as Sonia Pérez: well. I think. You know, you're told that, you know, to find happiness you must, you know, study hard so you can get a good job and then you get your good job and then you're supposed to marry and you're supposed to have children and you should, you know, go up in your career and at the end, I mean, it doesn't always bring you happiness. Happiness is so much more than that. You know, it's the little moments as well. And you find yourself like running someone else's face. I mean, some of the things may be things that you like, but you know, it's not essentials for happiness. And so yeah, that was, that was my awakening recently. Yeah, I'm privileged. I work for Joanne Lockwood: myself and I have worked for myself since the late 90s. So I've, I've got, even though I've had companies where I was responsible for people, still have, I still, I was still top of my food chain so I could make my own decisions about why I did when I did it. I was answerable to the bank balance, but not answerable to people other than customers and clients. Yeah, it's immense about freedom that I've experienced in my life and I think now being able to have exercise that freedom, I often call it a life, work balance rather than A work life balance because it's I live and I use work to keep me living if you like, rather than living to work. And I think maybe that comes with age, maybe it just comes with maturity or just having an epiphany and waking up one day and going, why am. I doing this Sonia Pérez: exactly? Because, well, if you go through all the things that you've done your whole life, this is what you've learned that was the right thing to do. Because without that, you know, you're never going to find happiness. But you know, one day you just learn better because you've gone through the experiences. Yeah. People often say Joanne Lockwood: to me, you know, what advice would you give your 10 year old self? And I always say, well, I wouldn't give my 10 year old self any advice because I've turned out okay, I'm cool. But you know, the key advice would be don't start smoking and watch what you drink and just don't sweat the small stuff. But you look back on it, what advice would I give? And I think definitely would be give more credence to family and less about work. And then and try and think of a life work balance. Earlier in my life, maybe that would probably be the only thing I would change is to enjoy my family more because as you said, you can't get that back. Once they've grown, you can't get that back. Sonia, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you. I've really enjoyed our conversation. If people are listening to this, if you're listening to this right now, how can people get a hold of you if they want to have a chat? Well, I'm in LinkedIn Sonia Pérez: so I'll be more than happy to speak to anyone who wants to get in touch. And your LinkedIn profile is Sonia Joanne Lockwood: Perez, is that right? If you search for you on there, yes. And Perez is P E R E Z. Yeah. And Sonia. S O N I A. I'll put, I'll put the details in the show notes. Thank you. It's fascinating conversation. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Sonia Pérez: Yeah, me too, actually. Yeah. Thank you. As we Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listeners, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all in. Is reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.