--- title: "Disrupting The Norm With Love" episode: 168 date: 2025-07-24 guest: "Heather Egginton" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/168-disrupting-the-norm-with-love audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-168/audio.mp3 --- # Disrupting The Norm With Love Joanne Lockwood is joined by Heather Egginton, who describes her work as activating truth, trust, and love to help people connect more deeply with themselves and others. Together they explore how everyday “truths” can be inherited illusions—beliefs and expectations passed down through family, society, and culture—and how those stories quietly shape identity, choices, and relationships. The conversation moves through examples of the narratives people absorb, including assumptions about womanhood and parenthood, and the ways labels like “introvert” or “shy” can become self-limiting identities. Heather shares how she helps clients examine what’s really true for them, including using reflective questioning to get to the root of why people want what they want, and how telling small untruths can snowball into a life that feels divided. Joanne brings in personal reflections on grief, identity, and life transitions, including supporting his mother after bereavement and the ways loss can reshape how we see ourselves. Both discuss the cost of inauthenticity—emotionally and physically—alongside the relief and freedom that can come from radical honesty and self-acceptance. Across stories about career changes, community-building, and everyday habits, the episode returns to a central idea: meaningful inclusion and belonging start when people come home to themselves, choose authenticity over conformity, and build relationships and communities grounded in truth and mutual value. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Intro and Welcome - 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Conversations for Change - 04:10 — Inherited Illusions and Self-Deception - 06:44 — Parent-Child Relationships and Independence - 12:59 — Complexity of Grief and Truth - 15:07 — Questioning Reality and Self-Truth - 19:49 — Truth vs. Lies: Emotional Impact - 22:50 — Cascade of Lies and Identity Crisis - 27:07 — Life's Travelator: Stopping the Routine - 27:50 — Finding True Path Amid Life's Expectations - 33:24 — Finding Your Place in Corporate Life - 34:10 — Choose Your Influential Circle Wisely - 37:20 — Embrace Authentic Relationships - 43:01 — Energetic Travel and Taste Transformation - 46:09 — Creative Cooking with Substitutions - 49:04 — Exploring Extroversion and Introversion Layers - 51:53 — Recharging with Candy Crush - 54:19 — Energetic Warfare and Retreat - 58:08 — Join the Inclusion Conversation ## Key takeaways - The power of self-honesty and how adopting authentic truths can reframe personal and collective narratives. - The way inherited beliefs and societal conditioning inform self-perception and shape choices, particularly around identity and belonging. - The impact of grief and loss on personal identity, challenging notions of completeness and familial roles. - How living authentically can disrupt entrenched systems, reframe relationships, and foster deeper human connections. - Practical approaches for confronting the lies we tell ourselves and recognising when we are leading from inherited stories rather than personal truth. - The role of community and conscious relationship-building in finding belonging—highlighting the importance of shared values and energy over labels or roles. - The interplay between vulnerability, bravery, and the ongoing work of questioning assumptions, embracing change, and supporting true inclusivity in everyday life. ## FAQs ### What does it mean to be a "Truth, Trust and Love Activator"? A Truth, Trust and Love Activator embraces the power of honesty, self-acceptance, and authentic human connection. This approach encourages not only being truthful with oneself but also extending that honesty to others, cultivating trust and deeper love in relationships. As Heather Eggington describes, it’s about living in alignment with who you are, dissolving inherited or self-imposed falsehoods, and empowering others to do the same. --- ### Why do we construct alternative truths or 'lies' about our own identities? Alternative truths or self-deceptions often develop unconsciously, typically formed by societal expectations, family conditioning, or inherited beliefs. As highlighted in the episode, such narratives help individuals fit in, avoid discomfort, or cope with shame and fear. Over time, these constructs can become so ingrained that they replace one’s authentic self, making it challenging to return to the underlying truth. --- ### How can grief be linked to changes in personal identity? The discussion explored how mourning is often tied less to the individual lost, and more to the identity that relationship conferred—such as "daughter" or "partner." When a loved one is gone, individuals often find themselves grieving the role or connection that no longer exists, requiring a recalibration of self-identity. --- ### Is having children essential to a person's sense of completeness or identity? No. Both speakers emphasised that the belief that parenthood is required for completeness is a societal myth rather than a universal truth. Identity and worth are not determined by whether one has children; each path is equally valid and transient phases, such as parenthood, should not define one’s core self. --- ### Why do people find it difficult to break away from false narratives or 'lies' in their lives? Falsities may begin as small "white lies" or tiny divergences from the truth, but as they accumulate, returning becomes incrementally more challenging. Layers of deception can become defensive mechanisms, protecting individuals from perceived judgement or fear. The longer these persist, the more invested and isolated people become in sustaining their false identity. --- ### How does societal conditioning influence our life choices and sense of inclusion? Societal norms, inherited values, and systems of expectation can make it daunting to step outside the 'status quo.' The episode illustrates that questioning, disrupting, or rejecting these norms invites resistance, yet it is crucial for authentic self-leadership and inclusion. True belonging happens when individuals align themselves with communities and values that resonate with their authentic self. --- ## Transcript Heather Egginton: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 168 with the title Corrupting the Norm With Love. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Heather Egginton. Heather is a disruptor of the Norm and a truth, trust and love activator, passionate about creating deeper human connections in an often disconnected world. When I asked Heather to describe her superpower, she said it is the ability to bring strangers together and leaving them feel truly connected. Wow. Hello, Heather, welcome to the show. Hello, Heather Egginton: Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure. This is a return visit. I. Marie, actually my wife Marie and I came on your show back in January, I think it was. Heather Egginton: Yes, you came on. It was such an amazing conversation. It was the wealth of you two and you were the one first couple that I went live with. It was amazing. We talked about my gender Joanne Lockwood: transition, we talked about how Marie coped with that. So, yeah, that's online and I'll signpost that in the show notes if you want to listen to that as well, that'd be fantastic. So, Heather, you describe yourself as the Truth, Trust and love activator. Can you describe what that means to you and how it shapes the way you connect with people? Firstly, Joanne, thank you. I know I'm Heather Egginton: giggling a lot. We've had such fun before we even got on to actually recording, so I'm just trying to rein in my. My giggles and so my. I guess what being a truth, Trust and love activator is all about is really, in my company, that is automatically what happens. There are people around me that cannot lie. They seem to find themselves trusting themselves more to be honest. Right self honest and be honest with what's going on with them and. And through that they just love themselves more. Because they can see how much beauty there is inside them. Is just one of my superpowers. We all have them. It's just not always easy to really recognise, without us doing anything, what our actual powerful presence really creates for other people just by being ourselves. It's Joanne Lockwood: interesting what you say there about the truth. The truth, and it starts as you. I think you're right. It starts with ourselves. Because if we're not careful, what we find ourselves doing is creating our own lie, which then becomes our. Which then becomes a version of our truth, doesn't it? If we're not careful, it's that inauthenticity, it's that pretence with the world that get either scared to come out or you're not prepared to face up to something. So you create this new normal for yourself and that becomes your story if you're not careful. Yeah. Heather Egginton: It's like an illusion really, Joanne, Sometimes. And look, it's not even something maybe we consciously do. It might be unconsciously something that we kind of lead and live our life with and through and view the world through that's actually not even ours. Not most of the time. The lies we tell ourselves or inherited from past generations, significant adults in our life that have also gone through the same experience kind of had to try and make themselves be something they're not just in order to fit in or belong or all of those things. So it's actually something that we've inherited and it's not even ours. However, it does mean that taking radical responsibility, I guess, for what we're not willing to continue lying to ourselves about or lying to other people about. Right. You know, a good example of this, and this is some of the work I do, is the wealth of Women programme that I run. A good example of this is we've been led to believe that you're not a woman unless you or you're not don't feel. Shouldn't feel complete as a woman unless you've had children. Right. And that's a lie. However, consciously or unconsciously we tell ourselves, I have no children, hands up, have fur babies, have two rescue doggies. And. And I was led to believe that I was incomplete. And also women said to me, I'm really sorry to hear that you can't have children. And it's just like, nobody said I couldn't have children. They just weren't in my path. Right. So just a good example of where really we maybe are delusioned into thinking that there's something wrong with us if we haven't gone the same way as other people have and it's not true. It's just not true. So it's just a good example. Yeah. I don't think Joanne Lockwood: having children has to define you. Okay, yes, it's a significant life event that occupies your primary brain for at least 20 odd years and then it's still in the back of your brain even now. So our children are in their 30s, so we've been through that ultimate responsibility phase and that hanger on phase and all those kind of phases. But now we're not post children, we're post worrying about children. And so having children no longer defines who we are. They're a fantastic part of our lives and people we love and treasure, but they're not what they were 20 years ago. So it's a transient phase. And when you talk about having children defines you, it's a transient phase. You become an active parent to being a kind of a long lost parent or they don't need you anymore. So yeah, I think it's. But I also see what, how I'm now able to support my own mum who's in her late 80s now and she's. Our father passed away. My father passed away a couple of months ago and so helping her through this transition from being married, although my father was in the nursing home, to being a now a widower, single again and trying to reclaim our own independence and own identity around that is a really interesting journey and I hope I teach our children about how I've had to help my mum adjust to this so that they'll be there for either me or Marie at that point when we become a widow. So I think, yeah, it's important to learn that transition, I think. But yeah, as you say, it doesn't define me. I just know that I've got hopefully two children who will look after me later. I've banked up that old age pension support credit. I love it. Sparky's just Heather Egginton: woken up. I'm not sure that tin dogs would be able to support me when I get into my elderly years. However, they fully support me now Right. In bringing out the best of me now. And I would say, you know, speaking to that Joanne, firstly, sorry to hear about you losing your father a few months ago and please send my love to your mother. This is a really harsh statement to make, so forgive me if this is a bit triggery, but. But ultimately we don't necessarily mourn the person that we've lost. We actually mourn the identity that person gave us. Yeah, I can Joanne Lockwood: Relate to that. I mean, my relationship with my father wasn't great. And it surprised me how much I was emotionally connected to his passing, given that I had very little time for him when he was alive. And it was, you say, I think as you write, it's clinging onto that identity of him being a father and me being a child and just that, that break of the. That bond, if you like, in the living. And yeah, I think you summed up really well there. It hit me more than I thought. Yeah. And it is. People Heather Egginton: find it really surprising they could have no real contact with a particular relative or friend and then they find out they've passed and it really hits them. And it is generally on a. I would say, depending on the person. Right. Because I believe currently that we are all the same, yet we're just living on different timelines. Right. So depending on the person, on average, I would say me personally, I probably go through the loss, let's say, of an identity every two or three, three weeks. And what happens with that is the, what I call it, and this is a lot of my work with individuals, private work with individuals, is about getting them to, I guess, navigate and lead themselves through the grief relief, disbelief and belief cycle. So. And that's what we experience when we lose somebody that we love very, very much, whether we're really connected to. To them or not. And even when we don't really love them that much. But it was what they gave us. You know, the identity is, is, you know, we go through the, the kind of the disbelief that someone's actually not here anymore. Right. And then we kind of feel that grief of. And we grieve what was. Right, what was before, that's no longer the same. And then we go through that kind of phase of relief. It's like, oh, now there's this thing that's leaving us these feelings that have probably given us a bit of dark days. And then we come out the other side in belief when we see that this person's not gone, they actually live on through us. And that is really powerful when we kind of get to that place. And it's not always in the space that I've done it. Right. So it can take people a couple of three years if it's someone they've lived with on a daily basis. But it's just once, silly. Once somebody knows that's the kind of thing they're going to go through, that there's almost a little bit of peace that's found there. Really. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I just think about how My mum describes it that if my father was in the nursing home for over two years, so she was very used to living alone, getting on with life. She used to visit him sometimes two or three times a week for an hour at a time, and she'd always save up things that she wanted to tell him on the next visit, so she always had something to talk about, because obviously his life was four walls and a window in the distance and he could probably see the same tree, the same building, and that's all he could see. So his life had no depth to it. It was very transactional. Eat, get changed, cleaned up, sleep, get up, not even get up, sit up, have dinner and then food, sleep, repeat sort of thing. So she used to save all these things up. And she said that the strange thing is that she keeps thinking, oh, I must tell dad that, or I must tell dad that. And that's the biggest thing she finds, is that habit of interaction, I suppose. I was heavily involved last year with sorting out some issues around his medication, his wellbeing. He had some reactions to medication and infection, which meant his personality change really, really badly for the worse. And so I was dealing with care home issues, being hidden issues type thing with old people's mental health, those kind of events. So it's a real. I got really, really engaged in this for about two months, really trying to sort this out. And we got him onto this really nice level playing field where it was really fine. And then, then he started to decline. So it's almost like could have done with another six months of him being really a really nice person again, having had all that trauma in the summer. So, yeah, it is strange. It's strange you become very invested in that relationship, even though, as I say, even though it's strange for me and my mum still sees it as well. So, yeah, grief is strange. You were talking earlier about these layers of truth and as you were talking, I was thinking about Breaking Bad at the series, for example, where Walter, his truth got away from him, didn't it? He kept laying and laying and laying all these different events and then he found he couldn't go backwards. The only way he could dig himself out was to dig deeper. And sometimes when you're inventing these truths or the language you're telling yourself who you are, you can become so engrossed in that. It's hard to find your way back to the truth again, isn't it? I've not never watched Heather Egginton: Breaking Bad. I don't know what you were referring to, but I think what you were referring to is the layers that we place on our. The layers that we have to kind of work through or keep up with and remember. Oh no, but I said I'm that type of person and now I'm with this person and I can't remember what person I am with this person person. And so we add all these extra layers. I think that's what you're describing. Yeah. If you've Joanne Lockwood: seen EastEnders, I don't know if you're an EastEnders fan, but you had a recent character called Rhys and he became a serial killer and one problem at a time got away from him and he kept rationalising what he had to do based on the disaster of a situation he was in, rather than going back and going back 10 paces and going, if I don't take the left hand fork here and go right, things will be okay, even though they're tricky. But that's what we do. We make this poor decision and we can't go back, can we? We find it very difficult to reverse out of that one way street. Yeah, it can be Heather Egginton: like that. I think also a lot of. Joanne, you know, as much as I don't watch telly, you know, that's why a lot of people are, let's say AKA and maybe addicted to like theories and soaps and, and characters identities within these dramas, right? Because what they do is they so much see themselves that it could be there, right? That they could get to that place where they do something that's a bit criminal and they're like, how did I even get to this place? And it's just like, well, one lie after another just led to this, right? So ultimately for us to understand within ourselves that, that there are these greater forces just as there are the powers that be, the universe, God, whatever kind of terminology, there's also these other greater forces that come and try and take you out when you are really living and leading in your truth, right? And it's being able to discern between is that my truth or is that something else? And it's really powerful. The questions sometimes that I find myself asking, personal one to one clients, is that like, is this really true for you, right, or is this another reality that you have maybe been witnessing or that you have been led to believe is yours in truth, like is it yours? Right? And it is quite a grounding question for the reason that you've just described with the characters in the TV shows. Because it does force somebody, the energy disruption there, like the norm disruptor, right? From my perspective, it does force Somebody to ask themselves and question themselves a lot deeper than the maybe others have before. Right. I like to play the why game. And I've done it with all amount different level of clients. So they're millionaires, CEOs, entrepreneurs. Right. And it's five whys. Yeah. So someone would come with something that they want to create, let's say, and birth into the world. And then we play the why game with it. We're like, well, why? Is that really important to you? Why? Right. And it. I mean, it is a little bit intrusive, I'm not gonna lie. And it is annoying as well, because I play it with myself. Right. And it gets frustrating. But. But once we get to the root of why someone wants to create something, it's really powerful because they can see what it's rooted in. And if it's rooted in truth, brilliant. If it's rooted in love and trust, brilliant. But if it's not, it's like, well, that is not yours. You know, you're trying to create, let's say, in a false reality that's not actually yours. So it is really. I love that you've gone down this path. Have no idea. Can we say, whoever's tuning in, we did not know where this was going to go. Right. So I appreciate your inquiries so much. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And it happens, you know, it's almost like that we were too afraid to tell the truth. That, you know, we're talking about that path left and right. Whatever reason it is, there's either shame, guilt, fear, whatever it is, causes us to want to take the path of easy. The easiest path, the one with less stigma attached to it. Less fear, less truth. How will I be judged? Whether we're having an affair, whether we've messed up at work, pushed the wrong button by mistake. You know, when you connect the first time earlier, I cut you off because I pressed the red X instead of the green tick. And you said, oh, it didn't work. I could have just said to you, oh, that's strange. I don't know why that happened. I went. I thought I might have pressed the X button instead of the tick button because it's. I've learned over the years that it's much easier to just tell the truth at that junction because once you stop, once you start on that lie, you then escalate it all the way through and it becomes that relationship. It's built on that one mistruth or that easy excuse. If I'm late for a meeting, I just say to people, I'm Sorry, I was completely daydreaming and I had no idea what the time was and I suddenly looked at my watch and did omg, and I hope you forgive me. So I'd rather say that than, oh, no, my computer was playing up. Oh, no. I had to dash to the doctors because I had a headache this morning. It's just to tell the truth and be honest because people go, oh, I've done that myself. You end up having this big conversation about how we're all just human, we all get stuff wrong, don't we? Heather Egginton: Yeah, I mean, that's the loving and compassionate and empathetic way of seeing truth. Because if we're really honest, the. What I say is the truth, it kind of whisks up your insides and other people's as well. Say, for example, my example of not being complete as a woman without having children. You know, that is going to be polarising for a lot of people, right? And so therefore the truth whisks people up, whereas lies, they twist you up. And when I say twist you up, Joanne, I mean, physically, your body contorts itself, contracts itself. I mean, this is going really out there, right? And my belief is it does cause and create cancer in human beings the more we live a lie, right, My foundation, like now in life is I'd rather have the whole world against me than live a lie, you know, and. And I. And that also is very polarising. But it's just like, why would I ever want to treat myself as something that's not valuable, that valuable enough to. To really honour its true power ultimately? And unfortunately, as I. On my website, it tells people, like, the five kind of stages to working with me from a transformational perspective. And the first one is like, we get rid of the lies we tell ourselves, right? So. And we get to the root of what created that, which is amazing because it's all working in our favour. It's just that normally we kind of lead with lies, or let's say, act a different way when we're a little bit triggered about something, because it just means we're not fully living in our true kind of path, you know, we're not living and leading in our true value as a person, which is all, like, easily kind of put back together. People can come back home to themselves, all easily remembered. But it's just like you say, the layers of lies, once they come back, it's like, oh, of course I understand. Now I see why this was happening to me, or now I see why I have this hip problem. Or now I see why my digestive system's messed up, for example. And it's like, so once you notice and go back to the root of everything and, and see that it's all just because I started a lie here and then it just escalated and it's like, how powerful is that though? That is simply following that energetic trail back to the root causes. It's amazing. Joanne Lockwood: Because we look at the escalation. The first lie is, is, is 10 centimetres. The next lie is another 10 centimetres. Another 10. Everything is built on that, on that first 10 centimetres. And to climb down from 10 metres after a year or whatever it may be then, then people start unpacking all the lies going, well, hang on a minute, you lied to me about that and you lied to me about that and you lied to me about that and, or, or I lied to myself about that or I lied to myself about that, whatever it may be. And you then become so invested in that new version of you, you look at bigger mists and other people, criminals, whatever it may be, become completely invested in this double identity, there's no way of backpedalling because then your truth is so far removed from who you are now that you'll never be forgiven. And then you're trying to hold onto that and thinking, hang on a minute, I'm protecting the person I'm lying to, that becomes your new truth as well. You're doing it for them, not for you. Yeah. I mean the biggest thing I Heather Egginton: picked up on there was there's almost like one, there's almost like a divide within ourselves. Yeah. And I know that you talk and you make a stand for equity, diversity and inclusion. Right. So there's almost a place where we become a divided person. And work is a really good example of this. As someone who worked in the corporate world for 25 years, previously leaving as a projects director for IT professionals and management consultancies. Who I was at work was, not who I was at home. Yeah. And this like divide within us becomes almost the biggest point that you made about the 10 centimetres is, is so true, Joanne, because it, we separate ourselves from, and specifically our body from. Right. So we can always push through and make it into work. Yet when it comes to the weekend and have fun, we want to curl up on the sofa and just wallow in self pity or, or eat loads of crap food or like and just immerse ourselves in something so that we can forget about everything else. Right. And it's like when you, when I mean that, when you see that if that is Something you're experiencing, like I was experiencing. Then there's almost a. Something that turns up to wake you up. Right. I'll put it that way. Right. Like a big jolt in something that's happened in your life that goes really like. And I'm really living my life this way. Way, because this clearly is not working for me. And for me, that was losing my cat. I had Lester. Yeah. Such. I mean, I'm saying simple, but we all know, you know, living beings, whatever form they come in, right. Are really valuable. And. And I was like, hold on a minute, I haven't got anything to be responsible for. Why am I slogging my heart out of work behind the scenes? I was already building a property portfolio for myself anyway. So it was like, why, why, why am I putting myself through this hell every day when I can just go and do this? You know, it was like, oh, I haven't got to have a fixed abode. You know, I can travel around now. So, you know, I so grateful for my cat harshly passing and where it took me in the end. And that was, what am I now? Seven. Yeah, seven years ago. Seven and a half years ago that I retired from having to work, as I call it. So it does. There is like a thing that comes along because people don't necessarily always just automatically choose, I think, is what I'm going to say, Joanne, don't automatically wake up one day and go, I'm going to live my full truth to today, you know, and then, ta da, Right. Like it is something like turns up that sort of says, it keeps happening, doesn't it? It becomes this Joanne Lockwood: kind of. Yeah. You could feel something stalking you from behind, going, I've been. And then you feel this pressure to keep on the status quo, don't you? And I often describe this as when I discovered this myself in my late 40s. The analogy I use is you get to Gatwick Airport and you get off the. Out the taxi and as you walk into the terminal, there's these really, really long travelators. It's almost like a mile of travelators. You get on, then you get off, then you get on and you get off and it takes you all the way into the departure lounge. And I describe it as, you know, I found myself on this travelator of life just getting on there and, you know, the ticket says you're going to Malaga, and you think, actually, I don't want to go to Malaga, I want to go somewhere else. So it's having the courage to hit the stop button. The metaphorical stop button of life on that travelator, take all your luggage off and just park up and go, so where do I really want to go now? Otherwise you just carry on on that escalator or travelator of life doing what everybody else has told you you wanna do. The expectations you started probably when you were 12 years old. I wanna be this, I wanna be that. This is who I am. This is my identity that gets shaped as you get older and suddenly you go, hang on a minute, I should be over there somewhere. How did I end up over here? And it's really difficult. As you say, we built that truth of who we are. How do you go backwards to find that path again? And it took me to gender transition and sell my IT company to do it. Not for everybody. But yeah, it's trying to have that bravery. I mean, you said you've got out of your corporate life and you now have a functioning new career as somebody who invests in property and does other things. So yeah, it's a different way of being, isn't it? Heather Egginton: Yeah. And it isn't. It isn't the norm. Right. So let's just what you, your decisions, you know, to walk your truth. Like, that's not the norm, Joanne. Right. And the same for me, you know, who does that? Who retires at 39 and declares that and says, right, I'm never going back to the nine till five, even though mine was six till nine at night kind of job again. Right. Like, who does that? Who buys their first house at 21 when everyone else has gone to university? Like, who goes against the grain? Right, Exactly. It is. They are out there. But, and I will speak this, those outer for greater forces, the ones that push against us living like this, will do everything in their power for us not to stand tall and be loud and proud about the decisions we've made that aren't the norm. Because that's societal conditioning. That's the systems and the processes. We're easily controllable if we're all nodding and going in the same direction. And it's just like, I'm not willing to do that and, and there is like a recourse, you know, when we come home to ourselves, like, and who we have always been truly at heart. There's. There's no fight. You just be that. Like you said about the options. Now, my, the way my business works, the world view is an extension of my being. So why would I say my superpower is deep, truthful connection and be on a podcast with somebody and, and it not Feel like it's. We are deeply, truthfully connected and we've met twice online. That's correct, isn't it, Joanne? Right. Yeah, yeah, at least. At least twice. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you feel in conversation with me? Like you're an old friend, you know, like I've known Joanne Lockwood: you for five years. See what I mean? So it's like a model Heather Egginton: completely what actually is possible. And look, it's. That's my value. I'm living and needing in my value and totally embodied in that. That's not going to be the same for everyone, however. It's being in the position where we're willing to really take a good long look at ourselves and see how freaking incredible we actually are without the societal programming, without those greater forces like you've described. Fear, regret, shame, all of those greater forces that suggest we should be this small thing that doesn't really matter. And it's just like we really matter, but we have to decide that, you know, we. We make that decision. We have to make that decision within ourselves. The saying, that's quite trickery for some. I know that I am the chosen one and so are you and so is everyone. But do you choose you as the chosen one? Do you see what I mean? I think. I'm not sure of the exact Joanne Lockwood: phrase, but it's something like you are a product of your six closest friends or something like that. So either either your six closest friends influence who you are, or you influence who you pick as your six chosen friends, whichever way you want to look at it. And if you hang around in corporate life with corporate people, that becomes your truth. And if you step out of that, everyone who's there going, oh, you're brave to go out into the cold and be shunned and go off and do your own thing, and they carry on doing their old. Their corporate slavery. But I hang out now. I'm sure you do. You hang out with other, probably other property investors. You probably hang out in entrepreneur space. You hang out in small business space. And many of the people I meet now, professional speakers, trainers, consultants, have exited corporate life because the same reason I did it was just like it was bs. I wasn't getting anywhere. Most of my network now, most of my close friends are sole trader, independent entrepreneurs, trainers, speakers, consultants. Therefore, you don't feel out of kilter with the right way of doing things. You get this sort of solace in knowing that you are doing the right thing because it's working for everybody else. So I don't feel alone anymore. Whereas Maybe in the early stages of exiting corporate life, I felt, yeah, like out on a limb, lonely. Heather Egginton: Oh, I can totally relate to that, Joanne, totally. And let's star. Star this. Look, there are people that thrive in the corporate world and are really good at that, right? So it's not about us saying this is wrong and this is right and this is how right, but it's just recognising where do we fit, right? Why. Why we were put on this earth and. And it might be that somebody was put on this earth to disrupt and change, shift the paradigm within the corporate world, and that's brilliant. And I know that you're working really hard to already do that in your see change happen from a speaking and training perspective, but it's just knowing, right what. Where we lead ourselves. And also, I believe it's not necessarily you become the sum of the people you are around, what you become is the sum of the energy that you sit around, right? So if you're in a room full of people that are disrupting the norm, for example, like me, then it's like there you calibrate to more bravery, being more bold, right. Being more truthful, like, and open in the world, sharing it out loud. Yeah. If you're in the room with people that don't necessarily have that desire or burning drive, I guess, then you won't. So it's recognising, well, what is it that I actually stand for? What is it that I actually value? And am I in the room or what of people? Am I surrounded by people that are actually on the same path or similar path to me? Or am I in the room with people hoping that they will see me for what I value and what I'm trying to create and are driven towards. So it's being able to understand what table do I want to sit at? Because that table is energetically in the right kind of similar field to me, but it's being able to recognise that, Joanne, because speaking from my own experience, I tried my hardest to convince people and prove to people that the best place to be was fully, deeply, truthfully connected. And like, why don't you want this? Because I've got it and it's amazing. And you know what that did? It just knocked me out of being deep, truthfully connected to myself. It was literally a vicious circle definition of insanity, Right. I was trying to convince everyone else this is the way to go, trying to get everyone to value the same as me, and then it's just like, no, Heather, I'd left a community because of it because of the way they kind of changed the community without coordinating or communicating with me. And I saw it right there. Hold on a minute. These people here don't value deep, truthful connection. And I consider in this room for two years, like I had been hoping, willing and with all my life wanting them to value the same as me. And it's just like. But they don't. And that's okay. And then you can leave, you know, and you can find or be, or even start your own freaking table, which is what I did anyway. Right. So I love that you brought that up around the, you know, you are who you are surrounding yourself with. Really powerful. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I, I love to quote Chris Evans, the celebrity broadcaster, Top Gear Year 1 Radio 2 presenter and bring your own toothbrush. I appreciate you don't watch. I remember TV much. Remember that. Yeah. So I, I remember him saying that, you know, you have to be Marmite, half the world have to love you and half the world have to hate you. And there's another quote that I can't remember who said it was, I don't have to like everybody because I don't expect everyone to like me or whichever way around that is. So sometimes by polarising people, knowing who you are, what you stand for, is a very powerful place to be, rather than trying to be a people pleaser, you've tried to please everybody, please the people that you want to please, because they won't ever try and please you. And I think sometimes we get so invested in our friend relationships where we often find there's a disconnect between how you view that relationship and how they view that relationship. And we have people who are. They never phone us, we always have to phone them. There are people who are pleased to see us and people think, do you want to see me or don't you? And you end up having this relationship where one of you doesn't care more than the other person. So you've got to try and find relationships where you both have an equal partnership in the success of that relationship. But we too often invest. I want to be your friend. I'll keep phoning you. They never call me, they never text, they never write. Well, stop writing to them, stop texting them, stop calling them. And if they don't notice, then it. Wasn'T meant to be, all values thing, Joanne, you know, Heather Egginton: you'd think that you would attract friends that value the same as you. And you know why? Most of the time you do. We are all magnetic. It's just what we are we attracting. Do you know what I mean? This is being able to be observant about, oh, I've attracted another friend who expects me to organise and sort everything out. What's that telling me? Right? It's telling me that I'm amazing at organising, but actually that's not what I want to do for my friends. And I love that you've spoken to this, because I'm just about to bring out my Frequency of values challenge on LinkedIn and I do a different, slight, different version. I do my Frequency of Love challenge, right? And I do that on Facebook and it's ultimately helping those that want to be in community with the people that they want to be in community with. Right. That going to have a reciprocal like you've described, you know, they'll phone you and you'll find them and it's not like feeling like you have to, you know, it's just a nice, easy community relationship. And that's what it's about this month. And it's about going from the lonely couch, right? To fully connected. That's what it's about because I was the one that was sat on the couch, lonely, never had any friends, didn't know anyone, Always thought there's something wrong with me. Just wished that I could be normal. I was one of those people. And it took a lot, I'm not gonna lie, for me then, to come to a place where I am today to say that that had I not experienced that, I would not be in the position I am today. To say, if you're wanting to create community and connect effortlessly with your people, can never say that word. If you wanted to connect effortlessly, nailed it with your people, then that's the challenge to join, right? Because I managed to do it where I moved here two years ago into Shropshire. Never lived here in my life. Was living in Worcestershire for like 25 years and now moved to Shropshire. And I've literally created a community of women around me that are incredible, that all value the same thing as me and all into the same things as me. One of those cup of quizzes. We won three last month. Have a look. Yay. No, no, it's brilliant. But it's just a good example of, like, what's possible. And. And I. I got to experience that dark and light, like you say, you know, the, the Marmite let safe connection. No coincidence that had Marmite on toast breakfast this morning. It's funny, I. I'm. I'm not really a Marmite on toast. I'm Joanne Lockwood: not. I've got this Thing in my head that says, I don't like Marmite, yet at Christmas I will pig out on Twiglets, which are basically Marmite sticks, aren't they? So it's a really strange thing. I could do Twiglets, but I just don't do Marmite. Raw Marmite, if you like. Maybe it has to be. What Heather Egginton: you would love is Marmite with cheese spread on toast. Probably because it's. Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure I've just got to try it. I've just got this story in my mind. You know, we talk about stories we make up and my own truth. My own. My own. The truth I've told myself for many, many years is I don't like Marmite. Yeah. I like. To Eiglets. It's like. It's crazy, isn't it? It Heather Egginton: is crazy and amazing at the same time. I can't wait to hear when you first try Marmont House. It's been years. I Joanne Lockwood: mean, Marie has it all the time. She had some this morning as well. I think she loved a bit of Marmite and toast. Maybe I should get her to do some. Next time she does something, do something for me and just give it to me and I'll go, okay. After I chat with Heather, I need to go back and revisit Marmite. It's like, for years, I couldn't eat celery. You know, as a child, I didn't like cheese, I didn't like celery. And then I went through a phase where I didn't like garlic. And then suddenly I broke those myths in my head. There was even a phase where I went through where I didn't like gin or I didn't like Southern Comfort. I didn't like vodka, probably because of a bad night out that my brain was going, oh, that's naughty for you. It took me a while, but I managed to break through that dislike of Perno. And, yeah, if you try anything enough, you'll start liking it. Sorry. Well, for those of you who are listening, who don't know, I stopped drinking three years ago, so I don't drink anything now. It's alcohol. Yeah. I link our taste Heather Egginton: buds to identity because I would not go any. You would not catch me anywhere near feta cheese. Yeah, I thought it was heinous. I mean, I'm not fan of. Can be a bit dry, can't it? It can Joanne Lockwood: be a bit dry, yeah. Not careful. Yeah. And then what it took is for Heather Egginton: me actually to travel with someone who was quite energetically, very high frequency for them. To order feta cheese and honey in Greece and I tried it and I was like, yeah, hello. That's really nice. So yeah, I do like. And taste buds to, to identity to like how high you are in vibration as a person depending on what your taste was like. Because the, the, the way I used to make food before wasn't necessarily with tender loving care. My partner will joke with you about this and take the mick out of my. My throwing it all together skills. Right. This throwing it all together skills has got me in a lot of places and a lot of compliments from people because I do make stuff up to go along and then they ask me what the recipe is and I'm like, no idea. However. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. However, over like the last three or four years, what I've really noticed is my attention to detail, my presence while I'm cooking has then now more started to perfect the tastes and what goes together really well. And I've been making the most exquisite tartar tan. Which if someone said you'd be baking a tartar tan, Heather, I'd be like, what? Because I didn't do baking cake stuff. Right. Fancy French Joanne Lockwood: dish that you see on MasterChef. Yeah, yeah, but. And it's Heather Egginton: so simple and yet unlike now at the place where. Yeah. And it is just down to like who I'm being in the moment while I'm cooking. Like how pleasant I am to it and just really noticing. And it's not even an effort thing. It's like the most satisfying thing in the world is to have made something and want to eat it at the end and find it delicious. Whereas I would make some it and just eat it because it was food. Someone taught me how to make Joanne Lockwood: a roux. I don't know, about 10, 15 years ago, how you melt the butter really, really slowly and gradually introduce the flour and bake it into this. You gotta get it automatically like marzipan, haven't you, before you. And then you make this, then you can then use that as a base for any sauce. And it was like once you discover that magic about making a roux and suddenly it's parsley sauce for your fish and then suddenly it's gravy or whatever you want to do with it. And I just thought it was magic. This secret sauce. The roux is the basis of everything. Yeah. I did a masterclass about four years ago on Heather Egginton: secrets people's secret sauce. What's your secret sauce? I'm more of a white wine cream and onion garlic based sauce maker. Yes. Yeah. With Muscles. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love it how we've like immersed ourselves into food. Well, Joanne Lockwood: it says in your show notes here that you're a food junkie. So it was food loving junkie. Is that so? It's not surprising we've got there. I mean, I love my food. I love, I love good food. But I'm with you on this. Chuck it in, see what happens. I don't. I look at the recipe and go, okay, I've got half of those things. I can substitute the other half I haven't got with something else or it'll be a kind of facsimile of what said it was. And yeah, I love just playing around. I made an amazing garlic chicken with kale mash once out of a. I think it was a hairy biker's dish and it was just. It was like four cloves of garlic. You chuck it inside this chicken, you spread it all around and put it in the oven and it's like, you come out, you go, it's amazing with the garlic. So the mashed potato, kale and mash on the side of it, it was just this absolutely gorgeous dish and the whole family loved it. I just never did it again. But yeah, it was one of those one offs, one off creations that was. If you love garlic, you like chicken, you like mash, you like a bit of kale in it. Google it. Hairy bikers, garlic and garlic chicken and kale mash. Yeah, it's brilliant. Absolutely fantastic dish. Very easy as well. Just need a chicken, a couple of cloves, a couple of bulbs of garlic. Not. Not cloves. This is like a full, A full garden of garlic. You just chuck it all in there and you end up. The garlic goes really soft and mushy and it's like, yeah. Oh, you might get hungry. I know I'm gonna have to dig out the recipe because it's. I can't. I need it again. Amazing that you've remembered it, though. I'll try and remember. Put it in the show notes. So I'll find. I'll dig out the recipe and put it the show notes. If anyone's listening and they want to. Want to have a go with it. Heather. Heather. I would describe you as someone who's extrovert, gregarious, outgoing, even though maybe on the inside, maybe you're not, but on the outside you are. I meet a lot of people who go, oh, I couldn't be outgoing. I couldn't. I couldn't go networking. I couldn't do that. I'm too reserved, I'm too shy, Fear of being judged again. This is a story we make up, isn't it, that I'm an introvert, therefore I can't do anything, whereas I would, by the definition of introvert. Introverts get power from self, extroverts get power from the room, energy from the room. I describe myself as an introvert, but I perform in a very outgoing, gregarious way when I want to, but when I don't want to, I turn the light off, lock the cubicle door and hide in the toilet for 10 minutes, recharge and then come back out again. How do we overcome that lie with dental cells that only extroverts can do this? Well, I mean, firstly we look at Heather Egginton: where that programming has come from, because I don't class myself as introvert or extrovert. I'm just a person who loves to be on my own in my own company, and I also love to be in the company of others. Right. So we have to look at where that condition or that programme came from. And when we go back to, even when we were growing up, what happened when we were extrovert around certain people and when we weren't around others. Yeah. Because when you're really quiet and not saying anything because a kid, people would think there was something wrong with you. Right. So what does that programme in? Well, I shouldn't be quiet because people think there's something wrong with me. Yeah. So we have to go back and back and this is the layers that I'm talking about. Right. And we go back to the truth of that is we are everything. We are both extrovert, introvert and all the things in between. However, it's recognising that if there's a particular way that we sway. If there's somebody, for example, who seeks more solitude than being in a room full of people, then it's been in a position to ask yourself, is this really true of me or am I really afraid of people saying, seeing the truth of who I am? And I think that's a big question. If. If there was smaller steps, I would love for anyone experiencing that to come and join the Frequency of Values challenge. Because I value being on my own, in deep, truthful connection with myself and I also value that with other people. I'll give you an example of a client I was working with a few months ago who were led to believe that they were shy. Yeah. So I asked them to. To. We worked on clearing that point of view because it was something which they were labelled with as a child, but it wasn't actually true. Yeah. And I. So I think some of the introvertness can come from the labels we were given as well. So there's quite a few different angles to go at that question with Joanne. Not sure whether I've answered it fully, but. No, no, we've done good there. We've done good. It's basically, I think Joanne Lockwood: what I was trying to get at really, is that it's another truth we're telling ourselves. It's another label we're owning without questioning. We haven't done that five whys on it, have we? Why does it bother me? Why am I upset? In fact, why does it affect me? And I guess it comes with age. I turned 60 the other month and you spend 50 is the new 40. 60 is the new 50, or whatever you want to say. And it gets to that point where you think you become more reflective about yourself, what you want, what you're looking at from the world. I don't care if people see me sitting in the corner of the room on my own playing my phone or just staring out the window for an hour, say, are you okay? Just checking your right. You look like you're lost or you look like you're upset. I just want some me time. I don't want to go and sit in the toilet with the door shut for 10 minutes. I'd rather sit out here and just watch the world go by. I'm cool but relaxed. Just let me daydream. I. Good. That's. That's strange. It's fine. Also, you're speaking about Heather Egginton: what that might also suggest coming up for the other person, how it's making them feel as well. So, like I say, there's quite a few different angles to go with that because, yeah, I remember I was at a bite My tongue. I was Joanne Lockwood: at a. I was speaking at a panel event, I think it was with ebay, a couple of years ago, before COVID Anyway, five, six years ago, and we were just talking away and we're talking about imposter syndrome and being introvert and this whole thing. And I just sort of said, look, when I'm feeling stressed out, when I'm feeling like I need a recharge, I just grab my phone, go sit in the end cubicle, shut the door and play Candy Crush for half an hour and recharge. And then I come back out, I'm good again. And the whole audience, you can see people in the audience go, yeah, me too, me too. That's what I want to do. I want to go and recharge. I want to take some time. Okay, just do it. Don't be apologetic. If that's what makes you happy, if that's what tops your energy back up again and allows you to come back out and go, yeah, I'm ready. Do it. If you don't need to, don't. I used to drink through it, you know, have another glass of wine, have another beer, have something else that used to mask that. And you start. You take that out of your life and suddenly, actually, I'm exhausted. Now I just want to go home. It's half nine. I'm tired. I've had enough. In the past, I'd have had another couple of hours. Large wines and I'd be life itself with a party for another couple of hours. And then suddenly it's five o' clock in the morning, isn't it? And you're absolutely wrecked. All your friends have now passed out and gone home and you're going, come on, then, who's up for it? I'm still ready to. You're bouncing around like Tigger. Yeah. I mean, what you're Heather Egginton: speaking to is kind of there's an energetic ceiling within us. The way we've had enough when we have to retreat and kind of recharge. My. My way of seeing that now, before it was my way of recharging was hiding away for a whole weekend and not see one. Right. And being on my own. That was before my way of recharging. Now I just clear anything that's not mine. So if you're in a room full of powerful people, there are a lot of greater forces that are coming to take you out. Right. Without you knowing that. And if you're also in that room, fully embodied, living your living and leading with your true self, that also drains your energy. So you have like two prong approaches now. For example, on this conversation, had I done this about three years ago, what would happen is I would be amazing at the beginning and then become a little bit shrt towards the second half because I was trying to keep up a Persona and identity with that things that we've talked about. Trying to keep up a way of being right that wasn't truly me. So that drains my energy. Take on the fact that there's all these other things going on around me that are also trying to take on some power away from me as well. Right. And consume it from me. That is what we would term energetic warfare. So I get why someone would want to go and hide in the toilet cubicle because they want to be away from that, and they also want to be away from trying to be something that potentially isn't them. And if you speak to when you did it before, Joanne, obviously at that point, you haven't transitioned either. I had transitioned. You already transitioned. Right. Okay. So it's definitely outside forces for you, right? Definitely. It's. Joanne Lockwood: I just recognise in me now that I. If I've had enough, I've had enough. I don't need to keep pushing myself into spaces where I don't. I don't feel comfortable. I don't want to be there if I'm not in it. I'm just. I. I said I'd rather say to people, look, I'm not feeling it. I don't want to stay here. You're obviously having a great time. I'm not feeling it. It's me. I'm off. Bye. And that's fine. Heather Egginton: Yeah. Whereas when I was younger, I just forced myself to stay in those spaces. Joanne Lockwood: And I think it's, again, going back to what we started with. Is that telling yourself the truth, being honest with yourself, do I want to be here? Do I want to go out tonight? Do I want to go and spend time with these people? And if it. If it's. It's trying to. It's a fine line between can't be asked. Cba, FOMO and Jomo. You know, joy of missing out, fear of missing out, or can't be asked if it's just being lazy. You know that if you go in, go out, go and do it. You'll come back and go, I'm really glad I did that. So you can. You can do that destination planning, you can start thinking about how you'll feel when you get there. But sometimes you just think, I really don't want to. If you don't want to. What I say is, is it a Heather Egginton: full body? Yes. If it's a full body, yes. Go do it. Do the thing, whatever that is. It's not a full body. Yes. Don't. Because it's not gonna. It's not gonna expand your energy. Right. It's only gonna contract it. So that's my wave. Making decisions about where I spend my time and effort into whatever. Yeah. On that note, Heather, we've. We've been Joanne Lockwood: yakking away now for best part of an hour and a half, an hour before we. We pushed the live button. So, yeah, it. It's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. I think we're both fully charged at the moment. And Neither of us are hiding in the toilet with our phone playing Candy Crush. So it's been absolutely fantastic having a chat with you. How can people get hold of you and talk about your website, your podcast and other things? So tell us what you do. Sure. Best Heather Egginton: way to I guess connect with me initially is either LinkedIn, which is Heather Egginton wealth of you or Facebook. I'm also on there quite provocatively sometimes, so you can connect with me there. Or if you want to find out more about the kind of work I do from a mentor or coaching perspective, then you can look at my website which is also Heather Egginton or www.henrygington.com. normally I had too many W's when I do that. So you can read. I know you can read more about the work I do with others there. It's been fascinating. If you Joanne Lockwood: just remind if anyone is listening that we did a Marie, my wife and I, we recorded an episode with you I say back in January. So do, do look that up as well and that that was a. You've got a great podcast channel with loads of video video podcasts on YouTube with loads of guests that are really inspiring as well. So do look those up. Heather, it's been amazing. Heather Egginton: Thank you Joanne. Likewise. Thank you for having me and for all those listening. Appreciate you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.