---
title: "Step Into My Shoes"
episode: 167
date: 2025-07-17
guest: "Rebecca Engle"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/167-step-into-my-shoes
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-167/audio.mp3
---

# Step Into My Shoes

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Rebecca Engle, an autistic special education teacher, author, and advocate, for a candid conversation about what it has meant to grow up, study, and work while navigating autism. Rebecca reflects on early diagnosis, time spent in specialist provision, and later experiences of bullying and mistreatment—alongside the moment she began to understand her “difference” was often defined by other people’s reactions rather than her own sense of self. They explore day-to-day realities including stimming, sensory overwhelm, communication differences, and the pressures of masking—at school, in relationships, and at work. Rebecca shares practical coping strategies and what has helped her build confidence and self-advocacy, including the role of supportive relationships and being open with her students about neurodiversity. The discussion also widens to systems: how inclusion operates in US schools through IEPs and 504 plans, where it falls short, and why some behaviour-based approaches can push neurodivergent children towards compliance rather than genuine emotional regulation and autonomy. Rebecca makes the case for identity-affirming support, open dialogue, and environments that adapt—so neurodivergent people can thrive without having to hide who they are.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Early Diagnosis Overlooked Due to Comparison
- 04:33 — Discovering My Differences in School
- 07:54 — Dyslexia: A Modern Perspective
- 12:01 — Understanding Neurotypical Perspectives
- 16:24 — Supportive Mother Nurtures Growth
- 18:05 — Stimming in Solitude
- 22:41 — Challenges in Educational Inclusion
- 24:12 — Challenges in Varying Educational Systems
- 28:06 — Special Education: IEP and 504 Plans
- 33:03 — Normalising Neurodiversity in Classrooms
- 34:01 — Empowering Young Students' Abilities
- 40:18 — Neurodivergent Representation in Literature
- 43:36 — ADHD/ASD Diagnosis: Does It Help?
- 44:11 — Autism Diagnosis Opens Work Accommodations
- 49:23 — Join Our Inclusion Journey

## Key takeaways

- The impact of early diagnosis and intervention on educational outcomes for neurodivergent children.
- How communication differences, rather than deficits, inform autistic experiences and interactions.
- Practical methods for supporting sensory regulation, including stimming, in classroom and everyday life.
- The complexities and ethical dilemmas surrounding behavioural therapies in education, particularly ABA versus CBT approaches.
- The importance of moving from masking and conformity towards genuine self-advocacy and authenticity for neurodivergent individuals.
- The barriers to open discussion about disability in schools and the consequences of a “don’t talk about it” culture.
- Coming to terms with late diagnosis, and why appropriate labelling and tailored support mechanisms matter for lifelong wellbeing and access.

## FAQs

### Who is Rebecca Engle and what is her background?

Rebecca Engle is a passionate special education teacher, author, and advocate for neurodivergent students. Diagnosed as a young child with several developmental differences now recognised as part of the autism spectrum, Rebecca channels her lived experience into actionable advocacy for inclusive education and student empowerment.

### What does “neurodivergent” mean, and how does it differ from “neurotypical”?

Neurodivergent describes individuals whose neurological development differs from what is typically expected—examples include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and dyspraxia. Neurotypical refers to people whose neural processing aligns with societal norms. Understanding the differences in cognition, communication, and sensory experience is crucial for fostering inclusive environments.

### At what age did Rebecca Engle realise she was different, and what was her experience as a student?

Rebecca became aware of her differences around the age of 11 or 12, mainly through educational and social cues pointing out her developmental delays and unique communication style. She experienced misunderstanding, manipulation, and bullying but found personal strength and acceptance of her neurodiversity.

### How do neurodivergent children generally perceive themselves in comparison to their peers?

Rebecca’s experience, both personal and professional, suggests that this perception varies. While some autistic children embrace their differences and are unbothered, others with conditions such as dyslexia or dysgraphia may internalise negative self-images, seeing themselves as “dumb” or deficient. Rebecca works to reshape these perceptions by instilling self-acceptance and addressing societal attitudes.

### What are some common misconceptions about autistic people?

A key misconception is that autistic individuals are ‘broken’ and must be taught to behave ‘normally’. In reality, neurodiversity is a valid, authentic way of being, and challenges often arise from societal misunderstanding and lack of accommodation rather than inherent deficit.

### What is “stimming” and how does it manifest?

Stimming refers to self-stimulatory behaviours that provide comfort or sensory regulation, such as hand-flapping, rocking, nail-biting, or repetitive movements. For Rebecca, stimming is both a response to stress or overstimulation and a natural means of self-expression, though she sometimes feels self-conscious about it.

## Transcript

Rebecca Engle: Foreign.

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.

Rebecca Engle: And today is episode 167 with the title Step Into My Shoes. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Rebecca Engle. Rebecca is a passionate special education teacher, an author, an advocate for neurodivergent students who is dedicated to creating inclusive learning environments and improving support systems for autistic learners. When I asked Rebecca to describe her super power, she said that it is her ability to transform her own personal experiences into actionable advocacy for inclusive education and student empowerment. Hello, Rebecca. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me. Good to have you. I think we tried to sort this out before Christmas, but for one thing or another, we had to postpone it until now. So yeah, it's great to have you on. Yes. You mentioned just now that you're based in Texas, is that right? Yes, in the U.S. so what's the weather like at the moment? It is like 50 degrees outside, but going up. Okay. So that's chilly but not cold. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Rebecca, you have your journey, you've been on as an autistic educator. It's quite inspiring reading through the notes. So can you tell me a bit about your personal journey? What got you into doing what you're doing? Yeah, sure. As a little girl, my mom realised there was something different about me. But I had two older brothers, so doctors were kind of like, don't compare her to your brother, your sons, like, you know, she's fine, she'll be fine. And my mom went for my brother's 5 year old checkup with me and I was newly 3. The my brother's doctor said something's wrong with her and my mom was like, finally someone said something. And my brother's doctor was my doctor's. Well, my doctor was my brother's doctor's boss, so you can imagine that argument that happened there. And so when all of this started going on, I was later diagnosed with pervasive elemental disorder, sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder, speech apraxia, you can name it. Multiple diagnoses. Now in modern day dsm, all of those fall on the autism spectrum at the age of three because of these diagnoses. I started in the early trial Childhood education programme which is for children that have disability, specifically to attend pre K in the us and so I attended an early childhood facility and learned how to function in school settings. I was in a setting like that for three years in a self contained classroom with other autistic disabled students and then went into the general education setting where I was, which is the setting without, with children without severe disabilities and was manipulated, mistreated by teachers, bullied, led to terrible things all the way until I got to the end of college really. And because of that mistreatment I faced as a student with a disability, I had a heart to make sure that that didn't happen to kids like me that are children today. It's quite a harrowing story that you had to go through that as a younger person. Tell me when you were aware that you were different or were you just you? I think I became aware that I was different around fourth, fifth grade. That's finally when my mom brought up my IEP and things and was like, yeah, that's why you leave the classroom for testing and that's why you're in speech. And I knew that I was in speech therapy and I knew that I had delays but I didn't really think anything of them or that they weren't things that every other child could have had meaning, like large masses of the population. So I kind of just was just being me. And then once fifth grade hit, there was where they started talking about, you know, how the transition to middle school would happen and which is, you know, 11, 12 years old. And they started pointing things out to me about my differences and I was kind of like, that's when I realised I was very different. And then as I went on through life, I still had those sensory bothersomes and things like that, you know, like I can't wear certain sweaters, certain clothes get to me. And when I would talk to friends about that and tell them how I reacted, they would kind of laugh and be like, oh, you feel that way with this? Like I would have no clue what that meant. And so as I kind of started having those discussions, those. That's when I realised I was different than my peers. And then when I got to college, most definitely, there was a lot of conversations that I was like, well, this is happening because I'm different. You know, And I would get comments on communication styles and things like that. And I was always very direct. I still am. And sometimes neurotypical people need things sugarcoated, and I'm very bad at that. That's fine. So you kind of. Cause I always think, you know, when we're in our own head, we just see the world as we've always seen it. We. Unless someone tells us we're different or we could become aware of it, we're just us. And so it was around that sort of age, around 11 or 12, that you realised that you were. I was gonna say struggling. I don't. I don't think struggling is the right word, but just had a different way of approaching things than other people. And. But obviously your parents were bothered by it, but were you ever bothered by it? Yeah, occasionally, I think I wasn't bothered by myself. I was bothered by other people's interpretation of me. Okay, so it's what people were, how people were treating you, describing you, talk about you, but you were happy in yourself. It was just other people that were their interaction with you. Mm. You were aware that you were different because of them? Yes. And is that. Is that your experience where you now work with autistic young children and people, how do they have a very similar sense of self where they. Not broken. They're just different. I think it depends on the kid. I have a lot of kids who do just live their life and they're different. You know, a lot of my au. Kiddos, autistic kiddos, they're just kind of like, yeah, I'm different, whatever. And they. They move along. I think a lot of my students with dyslexia, dysgraphia, things like that, they always tell me, I wish it was that easy. I wish this was easy. I'm dumb, you know, so I feel like they have a negative image of themselves. But there's a really good book that I always have them listen to when they call themselves dumb. And I think I'm trying to shape that image in them that, you know, it's the other people and not themselves. But I think it really depends on the kid. Yeah. Because I've always believed, if you like, that as a human species, we kind of evolved fifty hundred thousand years ago and we didn't have to read or Write. Back then we just did stuff. But I think this whole challenge with being dyslexic, dyspraxic is a modern thing because it never held people back 2, 300 years ago. Many of the population couldn't read or write 200 years ago unless you had wealth or affluence. Most people never learned to read or write. They had no books, they had no need to write. They were just living their life, getting on with earning a living, feeding themselves, keeping safe, wasn't it? So I often think that we're judging people against the human evolution that we weren't designed for necessarily. It's just something that we picked up. Yeah, that's a good point. So, yeah, I think it needs all types of people in society to make society fantastic. I think not being able to read and write or having a struggle with dyslexia, dyspraxia doesn't necessarily make you, doesn't make you wrong. I just think it means you've got other attributes that are fantastic. So what was the biggest challenge for you to overcome and learn? Because obviously you became aware that you had developmental differences to other people. What was the toughest thing that you found yourself to get to get over? I think as a young child, it was my developmental delays. But I think communication is what encompasses all of it. You know, when I was 4, I was non verbal, didn't talk at all. At 5, I only said 22 words in the English language. And then I slowly developed that vocabulary and then I picked it up quick. But even to this day, communication is probably my biggest flaw. And some people are like, there's nothing wrong with how you communicate. And then other people hate my form of communication. So I think it, I think communication is something. I still don't know what I'm doing incorrectly, but I'm a terrible communicator. I've been told multiple times that I'm too aggressive, I'm too direct. That's the Becca way of saying it. Um, my. I mean, I've literally hopped on a call with friends and said, yeah, I said this. And one of my friends is like, that's so Becca of you. And I'm like, still trying to figure out to this day what that means. And it's not just one person. So I think communication is probably my biggest barrier. Is there a difference between comprehension and communicating out backwards? So even when you were struggling and non verbal, could you understand, you just weren't able to speak back? Or was it a case of you didn't understand or weren't able to speak. I think both. Honestly, I feel like even now, I still struggle with comprehension. You know, one of the things I stress as a teacher is the sticky note strategy, because after about four or five words, I don't understand anything I'm reading unless I write something down. So. And it's the same with interpreting communication from other people, right? Like, when people are like this, this, this, this, this, this, this. I'm like, okay, start at square two. Like, I got square one started. Square two. So I think it. I think it goes both ways. You don't seem to struggle with me right at the moment. I don't have any problem. So Becca. Becca's style coming into it yet is that. Is that it's a fairly straightforward conversation at the moment, or is it you're in your comfort zone at the moment? I feel like I've gotten used to going on podcasts, and I've kind of gotten used on how to respond, and I feel like when I'm talking about my autism, the people who are watching are probably those who either want to educate themselves on autism or already have experience. So I kind of just don't feel a need to mask anything. Yeah, that's. That's a good point. Yeah, that's very good point. So what would you. What would you say is the most misunderstood thing, if you want to call it a thing about being an autistic person or even just yourself? Yeah, think. I think trying to figure out the neurotypical mind and ways I feel like I as a neurodivergent individual, you know, I've even my boyfriend's neurotypical, and I'll text him and I'll be like, hey, what does this mean? And why would a neurotypical say that? Or, wait, that's something neurodivergent people do and not neurotypical people. And, like, he's literally had to explain to me, like, that that thing is not normal. That thing is normal. Or so I think just like, figuring out the mind of people who aren't neurodivergent is something that I struggle with. I don't know. I don't know how to put that. But, like, I've literally, like, seen a TikTok or an Instagram reel or something, and it's like, as a neurodivergent, doing this, and I'll, like, send it to him, and I'll be like, wait, not everyone does that. You know, like. And I'm still figuring things out at 22. That's. That doesn't sound Too dissimilar to maybe someone who's. Who's speaks German language from Germany, that they have a very direct, very intolerance of lots too many words. You know, they want to be really direct at you. Whereas Japanese people want to use lots of words and lots of descriptions. So as a native English speaker, I guess I come across people with different first languages. The way they communicate with me is different than a native English person. So what you're saying there is you're effectively translating between one set of language rules and another set of language rules, where you don't always have all of the guides to do that. Yep, yep, yeah. So the students you work with at the moment, so you work with them for what age? From year 5 or 5th grade all the way up. Or is it mainly older children? So I work with third, fourth and fifth grade, which is ages 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, depending. And I suppose by that age they've been diagnosed, they've got support available to them, which is why they're coming to you in some cases. No. Sometimes I feel like by third grade they're figuring it out that eight, nine years old, a lot of them, some have already been diagnosed, 10 and 11. It depends on how consistent their education has been. I work in a area with a high poverty rate and so sometimes in a high refugee rate as well. So a lot of the time we get kids from other countries who have lived here since third grade. So obviously in a third world country, they didn't have access to those resources, so they got diagnosed much later. So I think it just depends. You mentioned just now that neurodivergent people, people with autism, have maybe sometimes trouble deciphering a neurotypical conversation. Do you find the same when you're talking to other autistic young people, autistic people, where you start to translate what they're saying because their neurodiversity is different to yours or the way they communicate slightly different, or do you find it much easier to relate to people, autistic people? I find it much easier to relate to people on the spectrum. I feel like when I'm relating to people with autism, I feel like I get them. There have definitely been communication barriers with other neurodivergent folks where I'm like, hold on, explain that again. But I feel like I don't feel any need to mask around people who are also neurodivergent, so. And I feel like they feel the same way. So it's kind of more open and I feel like I comprehend them Better. Okay, so you're, you're both aware of your communication style, both acceptance of other communication styles and as you say, it's a safer space. You haven't got a mask or cover. You can just be yourself and they'll be themselves and you can just sort of laugh about it and go, what do you mean by that? What do you mean? You haven't got to pretend that you do understand and go, didn't get that. Yeah, yeah. So what, what techniques did you find to help you overcome your developmental differences? So was it one to one coaching? Is it reading exercises? Is it a different way of learning to read phonetics or learning words? How did you approach developing those new skills? Yeah, my mother put like papers all around the house that had everything labelled with the word. So there was that. She was very, very supportive and read me all the time. So there's that too. And then I feel like as I got older, just like facing the realities of being different helped too. And like asking my neurotypical friends how to respond or how to do things in these situations was something that I picked up on. And sometimes just being called out like that's not how you engage with that this way or you know that this is how you have to respond in this instance in a positive way helped. But I think, I think a lot of it was just a lot of one on one with my mom. My mom journaled literally every movement I made with my body at one point. Like if I did this with my finger, like moved it upward, she would write it down, like literally everything I did with my body. And then she would find a way to respond to it, including my stimming. And I think that that helped as well. How did your stimming manifest? Is it literally just rocking or finger movements or was it having comfort toys? So as a kid it was flapping. I flapped like a bird. So I would literally start like waving my arms. I did a lot of back and forward rocking, a lot of circles. I think as a, in the textural stims were nail biting, biting my fingers, biting, biting things. And then now I do a lot of finger movements. I still sadly bite my nails, but a lot less frequently. But my typical stim for those watching via video, I kind of like tap my fingers like I'm playing an instrument. I don't know how to describe it or I rub my hands together to create like a friction sense. But it's funny because I'll have alone time in my classroom where I'm on a conference period or on lunch or whatever and I finally get to like de stress. And I'll stim and then a student will walk in and I'll be like, oh. And I'll like mask my whole body and go straight into like a real weird pause. So it's definitely my hand flapping and things definitely still come out. It's just when no one else is around. So how would you describe stimming manifests itself? Is it times when you're stressed? Is it times when you're lonely? Is it times when. I don't know, is there a particular trigger for stimming or is it just all of a sudden it comes back. I stim more when I'm lonely and then lonely and stressed really adds to it. But ultimately it's stress and anxiety that cause it. So something sort of stimulating your brain and it's a way of releasing that sort of kind of tension as a. Yep. So I. I pick my nails a lot these days. It really winds my wife up because she says, stop playing with me now. Stop playing with her. And I just find myself flicking my fingernails and playing with them and doing this with them all the time. And it winds her up completely. And I just get. I can't stop it. It just does it, you know, keep shouting at me, really like. But I'm going to keep doing it because it. When I'm driving, sometimes I'm doing. I'm driving on one. One hand is kind of. Yeah. Playing with the nails. But yeah, it's. I can kind of relate to what you're saying. And yeah, having, having a. Having a toy or something in my hands or something like that just distracts me from playing with it. I can just squeeze this instead. So, yeah, I can relate to it. I wouldn't say I would. It's more fidgety, I suppose. Stimming. Yeah. Is there something that my brain needs to do as well? I said when I was school I used to doodle a lot. You know, just write, draw lots of circles and little things and lots of straight lines used to cross each other. My drawing stim is flowers. I draw a bunch of flowers or circles. I tended to draw H's the line across it and then I'd make the one part the H, another H and then another H and I ended up with a whole page full of joined together Hs. Okay, let's just do that all the time. Let's still do that now. If I'm just sort of. If I'm in a meeting, I'm bored. I'll just sort of. That's. That's my doodle is H's. Interconnected H's. Yeah. And so did you find that stimming even now? Do you get embarrassed by it or you just kind of go, whatever it is? I definitely get embarrassed by it. There was a thing on Instagram and it was like, it literally asked, like, ask your neurotypical boyfriend or girlfriend if they've ever seen you stim. And I sent it to him and I sent it to my boyfriend and I was like, hey, have you ever seen me stim? And he was like, all the time. And I was like, like, I didn't even realise I did it in front of him until he pointed it out and I was like, like, oops. And so just. It's funny, like, I feel like I. I feel like I'm now more self conscious about it and he doesn't care. Clearly he didn't point it out until. And that was two and a half years into our relationship. But I do definitely get embarrassed by it, especially when someone walks in on me and like, deep moment of stem. Even when I was. I had roommates in college and stuff. Yeah, I suppose the flapping one is quite, quite visual, isn't it? It's. Yeah. Hard to sort of. If people don't know that about you, it must be a bit of a shock. The first time they, they see you doing it, you go, what are you doing? Yes, it's okay. It's a Becca thing. It's a Becca thing. Yeah. I suppose that must help. If you've got friends around you, boyfriend and other good friends who know you, as you say, you can be yourself around them and they can let you know what you're doing. Just for the simple. Oh, that's a Becca thing. That's a Becca does that. Yeah, that's what I do. Whatever. Yep. Going back to your teaching role is without putting an age on you. You probably went through this a fair while ago. You said you were in your 20s. I think you said, how has the education system. How has the world moved on and become more supportive in the last 15, 20 years? It must be completely different. There's more awareness of neurodiversity, autism or the asd, autistic spectrum disorder than there ever was now. Is it better now than it was? Honestly, I think that's a hard question to answer. I feel like, yes, like, if I wanted to say it in broad, but I don't think it's good enough. I think that we are in the middle of a Time as a society. And I don't know if this is global, but definitely in the US where we are figuring out how to motivate autistic students, how to motivate students in general, how to communicate with those students, how to make them a part of their general Ed peers. However, I don't think inclusion is where it needs to be in the US per se. We always say every kid is a gen Ed kid first. And it drives me crazy because it almost is saying this kid is neurodivergent when we allow them to be. What they mean by it in reality is that we're going to put them in a gen Ed setting first because their disability isn't all of who they are. But internally, to me, as a disabled individual, I kind of take it as like we're ignoring their disability and throwing them into a setting that's overstimulating and overwhelming in order for them to have friends who are normal. And that's how I interpret it. You know, the general ed setting is overstimulating. It's overwhelming. You have 30 other kids around you. It's crazy. And you know, we are trying to revise education across the states. You know, in the US education is really determined by the 50 states states rather than the federal government. And so you get kids who move across each state who are now trying to address two completely different roles. I know for me, right in Oklahoma, my educational experience, which is the state above Texas, was completely different than in Texas because I moved here right in the middle of it all. And I feel like that's still the case. You know, I've had kids come to me with an IEP from out of state and I read it and I'm like, well, we don't even have that type of setting or this doesn't even exist in Texas or. Well, we have a lot more than they had in this state. You know, and so it's like you kind of have to revise their whole education setting and then they're actually taking on more changes than their gen Ed peers, whatever. Because gen Ed education is almost exactly the same across all 50 states, except for what you're being taught at a certain age. And so for example, the system that we have to reward autistic kids for managing behaviour is what we call positive behavioural intervention supports. And that system is pretty much do this. It's very aba. If you're familiar with ABA therapy. No. Okay, well, ABA therapy is a system of. Here's a cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a cookie. You did what I asked you to. Here's a cookie. You did what I asked you to. But a lot of the time it's teaching to mask emotional regulation techniques. So like, oh, you didn't stim because you, when you stim, you accidentally slap a kid, right? Like, oh, you're hand flapping and your hand waves off. Right? Here's a cookie. Cause you didn't stim. Here's a cookie because you didn't stim. So it's almost like we're animal training kids with disabilities rather than. So just rewarding for good behaviour and taking the reward away for bad behaviour to make people conform. Learning how to mask to get reward. Yes, but also these behaviours aren't bad behaviours, they're emotional regulation behaviours. You know what I'm saying? Like bad behaviours are me going up to my teacher and slapping her across the face when I know how to talk, you know. But when we have a kid who's neurodivergent, is that child slapping them across the face as a way of communication because they can't talk. You know, it's basically rewarding neurotypical behaviour and trying to prevent people being neurodiverse. Because neurodiverse is bad. It's broken. It's not. Right? Correct. Right. Rather than recognising neurodiversity as valid, authentic and okay, just, just neurodivergent, neurotypical people just need to learn how to get along. And because you must find neurotypical people frustrating as well. They must. Yeah. No one ever says they're, they're bad. You don't understand. It's funny because I'm a special education teacher right now, which means I teach kids with disabilities and everyone always asks me, would you ever teach your Gen Ed class as long as it had disabled kids in it, which is a class with inclusion. Right. And I was like, no, because I would favour all of the kids with disabilities and then all the other kids would get pushed to the side. But yeah, that's what I would call equity. It's giving the kids who need the help the help. That's what you're set up for, isn't it? So you use the term iep. What does IEP stand for? Individualised Education Plan. So it's the United States legal document for a child with disabilities to get individualised supports, one on one supports from a one on one staff member. So I would imagine that not every child exits education or their main education with qualifications able to function or is still Held back by their autism, their neurodiversity. What support is there? Is there other colleges where they can get support there as well or is it only really in the primary education? So in the USA we have what we call the iep, which is this classifies a student as a special education student. And so this student is getting modified work maybe that the whole entire assignment's getting modified and then it may even be grades below. Right. So we may be modifying a seventh grade assignment to second grade level. Meaning like this kid's 14 year old assignment is modified for a seven year old developmentally and then that includes like speech therapy, dyslexia, dysgraphia, things that really affect them in an educational setting. Once you graduate from that, if you ever do, some people will never. You typically go on a 504 plan, which is a section 504, which 19 states are actually trying to get rid of right now. If you want to look into that, it's fun. But the Section504 system is pretty much just a protection accommodations letter almost. And it's like we can accommodate you in this way for you to attend to the genera ed population that could be you take tests in a smaller room. We're going to give you 50 questions instead of 150 on this test. We will make it so you have five extra minutes to walk to class if you have something wrong with your mobility. Right. Like it's those tiny things and that's called a 504 plan. And that's what would go to college if the child attended wanted to attend college, that a documentation would go into with them with college and IEP would not got. Yeah. Understand. Is there a perceived reduction in the support? You know, the last month or so there's been a pullback on DEI initiatives. Do these initiatives still carry on? Are these seen as DEI initiatives or are these seen as iep, which is different? They are different. There are. Because DEI started in the United States way later than an IEP process did. The IEP process is interesting in that it's been around really since we did the idea laws, which were done in like the 1990s, 1980s and then DEI was more recent in the 2000s. So no one's necessarily trying to get rid of IEPs. There are 19 states currently in a lawsuit with my city state to get rid of section 504. I don't, I haven't done enough research to determine if it's to replace it with something else or just hurt those with disabilities. From what I understand though, it's just to get rid of it completely. And so that that's on an attack with the DEI changes. But I feel like DEI in the way I've experienced it in the us and it shouldn't be this way, but it has been this way is more so centred towards race and ethnicity in the United, rather than the inclusion practises of disabilities. It's in the name that it should be. But I'll tell you that my school that had DEI classes, my university, I took a DEI class and the same professors told me that I needed to learn how to mask my autism. Like the professor teaching the DEI class told me that I needed to hide my identity. So I feel like everywhere that I've experienced the DEI movement has been very focused on race. So I think until we. And again, we need those things, we need to move away from, you know, racism and all of that. I 100% agree, but I also think if we're going to have dei, we need to make sure that it's working for all of the people who are segregated equally. It's gotta be fully inclusive for all people. Disability is a major part of that. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah. So what do you think's gonna change? How would you evolve the system? I think you've already touched on the fact that making sure that neurodivergent people aren't disadvantaged in a neurotypical world by trying to convert neurodivergent people to be neurotypical. How else can organisations support. Yeah, autistic people? Well, first it starts with insurance or insurance companies accepting Cognitive Behavioural therapy rather than ABA therapy. That's number one. There are practises out there already lying that their therapy given is ABA therapy, when it's actually CBT just to be covered by insurance companies to support families that have kids with autism. But many of our insurance companies in the US are still only paying for systems that feed into that ABA PBIS award system. And then I think there just needs to be more education from an early age, like due to other laws. Right. I can't tell anyone that this kid in my class has a disability which is 100% valid. But even if that kid start saying, you know, I have dyslexia and this is what this means, a lot of the time the teacher will say, stop. You're not allowed to talk about that, even though it's them talking about themselves and my classroom, you know, I've always been very open about, you know, everyone in here has something unique and they can open up about it or choose not to. But I have neurodiversity symbols all over my room. So I think just normalising it, it's not going away, it's not harming children by being aware of those things. You know, I had a situation a few weeks ago. One of my kidd with autism got water thrown at him and he was freaking out and it wasn't on purpose, but simulation of the water, you know, the water being thrown at him though wasn't on purpose. Like the person didn't spill it on him intentionally and but another girl like came up to his face and screamed, it's just water, get over yourself. And this kid has communication deficiency so he couldn't say, you know, it bothered me because it's this and this. And one of my kiddos came up to this girl and explained his autism and was like, this is overstimulating him and was able to talk about it. And these were nine year olds. Like these kids have the ability to do that. You just have to let them. And I feel like we kind of, we, we lack that in the United States, right? We tell these kids, well, you have support, you don't need to talk about it, you can keep it a secret. And that's just is even when as a co teacher, as a special ed teacher, I'm not allowed to walk in the class and be like, I'm here to support the kids with disabilities, I'm not even allowed to say that I have to pretend that I'm there to support all 25 kids. That sounds crazy. I get the fact, as you said, you don't want to out somebody or separate somebody as being different, discriminate against somebody, treat them less fairly. But the whole point of equity is to give people the tools they need. And not talking about someone's autism or neurodiversity means that you're not able to give them the support they need or even normalise conversations and have a conversation around. Actually our friend here, this is who she is, this is how she responds best. If you can't talk about that, then how can you bring that person into this conversation? It sounds absolutely ludicrous. And I mean, I would get it, like if the kid doesn't want to bring it up, that's fine. But I feel like even having people like myself go to schools and be like, hey, just so you know, you could run into these types of people in your classrooms on, you know, first day of school, let's have an auditorium discussion about what type of kids you could run into. Kids in Wheelchairs, kids in this. And just having that discussion each year could open so much. But we're, we're so like, don't talk about it. It's hidden. It's a secret. Yeah. I mean, when you get to the wider world, into the workplace, if you have that same sort of attitude, then no one's ever going to give you the support you need. You're used to, just as you, she pointed out earlier, just masking and covering and hiding your identity and what. All the things that you need for people to help and recognise you with, with you hide them. And it's like. Yeah, it's ludicrous. Yeah. Wow. Is that, Is that all over the states or is it, Is it just a, A tech. It's not just a Texas thing then? No, it's not just a Texas thing. It's all the states, wasn't it? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Don't out somebody. And I'm. I mean, okay, I'm, I'm the wrong, I'm the wrong side of 20. So I don't understand what, how, what young people are doing these days, but I can't imagine the UK where we're avoiding talking about it. I think we're more likely to have open discussions about neurodiversity because it affects so many people these days. It's on the news all the time and people are talking about it and lots of autistic advocates out there talking about this all the time in workplaces. So I can't imagine we would cover it up or hide it. So you mentioned that CBT is an improvement by a long shot. What's the key elements of CBT then? That people. So just for anyone's listening, cbt, cognitive behaviour therapy. What's the difference between that and how you educate people through that than ABA them? Yeah. Cognitive Behavioural therapy teaches what behaviours are genuinely wrongful, Right. Like slapping someone or harming someone. And it removes that PBIS system of. Here's a cookie, Here's a cookie, Here's a cookie. Every time they do something and it's actually done by actual therapists. So aba, in order to be properly become an ABA therapist, you do not need any form of therapy degree, you do not need any form of college education. You can be a high school graduate with a GED and become an ABA therapist. Like you can leave the 12th grade when you're 18 and become an ABA therapist and make $30 an hour, which is like high here. Right. Like that's better. That's almost as much as I Make with. As a teacher with a degree. And all you have to do is watch a few videos and take test. And you're an ABA therapist, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Actual trained therapists who have completed multiple years of college, who have a master's degree and a doctoral degree and have genuinely studied the brain. And so you're getting a whole entire other educational level. But not only that, your child's learning how to embrace these things, these things rather than hide them. And they're, they're. I mean, they're taking the behaviour cognitively. They're not just correcting, correcting, correcting and teaching to mask. They're. They're, you know, they're not training you like an animal, they're. They're working through it with you. What can we do instead of slapping someone when we need this? Let's talk about it. Rather than, oh, you didn't slap someone. Here's a cookie. Oh, you didn't do this. Let's. Here's a cookie. So it's giving people strategies. So you're rewarding through correcting, integration rather than rewarding, as you say, a cookie. It's actually learning that, well done, you did great there. So you're being honest with that person and giving them that positive reinforcement rather than. Was it a dopamine rush in their head with a cookie or whatever it is? Yes. So I. Looking through the show notes and, you know, you put that. You've written a book and. Yeah. What's the book about? Yeah, I am the author of Step Into My Shoes. It's a children's book about kids with disabilities and it's about kind of how I navigated my elementary school, my primary school years, so those younger years as a student with a disability. And is it aimed at other students or is it aimed at parents as well? It's aimed, it's aimed at students. I mean, parents can read it with their kid, but it's definitely a children's book. So is the character you in it, is it a young girl in there. Or is it a. Yeah, the character's name is Rocky. My legal name is Rebecca. So I was like trying to think of something with an R and went with Rocky. And Rocky is based off of me and a few other AU kiddos I got to teach throughout my years as a student teacher. So what's Rocky's kind of superpower, then? What makes her special? Is she an AU kid? But what does. Is she dyslexic, dyspraxic? Does she stim? So she does stim she does have visual supports. There's parts of the story that stress her out. She loves library and loves books. She likes quiet, she doesn't like loud environments. I specifically avoided naming what disabilities Rocky has because I wanted my first book to include all people who feel different. So I don't include if she has dyslexia or she has dysgraphia or autism or any of that. I specifically called her neurodivergent and I did that with a reason. Because in America you can qualify for an individualised education plan, which is that IEP document simply if they determine that you have a educational learning disability, which is not a medical diagnosis. It's a school psychologist diagnosis, which is not medical. So even school educational diagnoses are different than medical diagnosis. So I can be diagnosed with autism educationally, but not medically. It's two different things. One is, okay, medically, autism encompasses a lot more than how you talk and your behaviour. Educationally, an autism diagnosis is communication and behaviour. That's it. That's all they look at. So I specifically avoided specifying because I wanted kids with just a learning disability of reading comprehension to be able relate to people. When you're working with your students, appreciate that they're probably a little bit young, but how do you help people through that transition into the workplace? Is it just working with them to become functional in a neurotypical world or are there specific traits and specific lessons you help them with in order to integrate with a wider society? I kind of do it all. I mean, I help with the academic aspects. I help them integrate into society. All my kids know that I'm autistic and adhd. I mean, they're well aware I've brought up my IEP as a little girl. I've shown them it. I did a video for my school district which encompassed me talking about my autism. So I've done. I've done it all. I've taught them how to advocate for themselves when people are going against them and all of it. Wow. Yeah, sounds good. I think there's a lot more awareness now than there has been. And we mentioned earlier that it's a different world. When you were growing up at that age, there's still a long way to go, isn't there? Businesses, society still not ready. People will still look at you funny. They won't immediately look to help you. They'll judge you poorly rather than welcome you. They'll see you as too different to cope with. Yes. Yeah. How do we move society on then? Because that's. That's really the aim is to allow AU people to function in society as themselves without having to mask or cover, then convert them into being socially acceptable for neurotypical people. That's got to be the objective, isn't it? Education and Thai, I would say, are the two things that will take. I think it won't happen overnight. It will take years and years. And I mean, now we're just getting to a point where we're actually diagnosing everyone with autism that has autism rather than just saying, well, you know, it's not the most severe situation. They're not autistic. Is it a diagnosis important for people? I know many, I've got many friends who have been late, later life diagnosed as ADHD or on the asd, on the spectrum somewhere to them it means something. It matters that they finally got a label that they can go, look, I'm not, not. I'm not crazy. I've got something. But does it really help? Did it help you? Apart from getting access to education and other services, does it help many people being diagnosed? Yeah, I think so. And when I was. So I went through school and I was diagnosed with all of that, and I went through my bachelor's degree diagnosed with all of that. I got rediagnosed this past October with autism specifically. So they made all of that mushroom of diagnoses autism. And I'll tell you that immediately. I now qualified for work accommodations. I qualified for all these things that I had never qualified for before in my undergrad university. They told me I was too autistic to teach. They told me that my communication skills were bad and all these things. While I was seeking my bachelor's degree and because I only had like pervasive developmental disorder, like all these developmental diagnoses, but not the word autism attached to it, even though the DSM had been updated to include those as autism. I couldn't sue or protect myself. So it is important to have. Yeah, I mean, in the same way that if someone has cancer, they want to know they've got cancer. If you, if you're autistic or have adhd, you want to know, at least you can advocate or people can advocate for you to make change to create space for you. Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. So what plans have you got for your next book? Yeah, I want to do well, My next book that's coming out is an adult book and it's through our lens, which is Perspectives on Disability, that will come out in October, and it's 12 other authors contributing Their story on their disability or their family's disability or their kid and just talking about it. Wow, that sounds great. Yes. Another one in your mind for past that. You got a third book coming out, Planning. Yeah, I want to do Step Into My Basket Basket and that book will be about grocery shopping as a autistic adult or child. Is that Rocky Grows Up? Is it, is that the, the idea? Yeah, pretty much. But thinking. I'm thinking about doing a middle school book too. So I'm like, we'll see. But Step Into My Basket is the idea for that grocery store because that's. Part of your, your side hustle, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. You, you make stuff, don't you? Yes, I knit. I knit beanies, scarves, blankets, ear warmers, headbands, stuffed animals, all of it. And then I also, I also write. So I've been in nine other books on top of the one I've released and seven of those were poetry related. So when you're, when you're knitting and crocheting, does that help your stimming or is that, is that kind of another a way of releasing it or do you, do you stim while you're knitting as well? It depends. When I'm knitting it does kind of mask my stim and then finally I kind of release it and I'll take a break and I'll like stim full on. But it does help me calm down. Do you feel the need to sort of wear headphones or have background music on or noise cancelling earbuds or anything like that? Or listen to music? Does that help? Music helps me sometimes. I definitely need music when I'm driving and then. Or someone talking constantly and then. I've never needed noise cancellers except for when testing, testing. It helps shut off from the world if you're getting overstimulated. You walk into a noisy room or something like that, it's. You can get overload. Can you? Yeah. Yep. Too far. One of the things I've realised over the last couple of years is there's more availability of quiet rooms and chill out spaces where people can go and be quiet, be noise free for a while. Is that a good way that companies can provide sort of support for people who are autistic? Yeah. And I know in the US some stores are starting to do a sensory friendly time. So from like 8am to 10am they're open where it's just silent. Like it's only like the lights are dim and the. You can grocery shop without as much noise. So THEY TURN OFF THE BACKGROUND MUSIC CLANKING AND CLUTTERING yeah. Yes. Just relax. That sounds good. Becca, it's been absolutely fascinating. I'm chatting to you and listening to your experiences of your growing up. Up and how you've, dare I say, found a way of navigating the neurotypical world while still proud to be you as well. Which is. Which is the important thing, isn't it? Not being assimilated like the Borg into the neurotypical world. Yeah. How could people get a hold of you? What's the best way for people want to get in touch? You can contact me on Instagram @stitchostanzas or Facebook @becca Engel or Facebook @rebycraft. I'll put those in the show notes as well. Well, yes, Becca, it's brilliant. And it's a book on Amazon. Is it? Can we get a bit on. There it is. Okay, I'll put. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll find that and I'll put a link in the. In the show notes as well. So awesome. Thank you so much. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Bye. As we bring this

Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.

Rebecca Engle: Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all

Joanne Lockwood: ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.