---
title: "Empowering Minds, One Reflex At A Time"
episode: 166
date: 2025-07-10
guest: "Niki McGlynn"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/166-empowering-minds-one-reflex-at-a-time
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-166/audio.mp3
---

# Empowering Minds, One Reflex At A Time

Joanne Lockwood is joined by neurodevelopment therapist and ADHD coach Niki McGlynn for a practical, science-led conversation about primitive reflexes and why they matter far beyond infancy. Together they unpack how early movement patterns help the brain wire up for attention, coordination, sensory processing and the felt sense of safety—and what can happen when those reflexes remain active into later life. Drawing on personal experience of dyslexia and ADHD in their families, they connect reflex patterns to real-world challenges many people recognise: fidgeting, difficulty sitting still, trouble tracking text, overwhelm from noise or sensory input, social anxiety, and the way shame can build when these differences are misunderstood as “bad behaviour” or a moral failing. They also discuss the lingering impact of the pandemic on felt safety, risk aversion and social habits. The episode offers listeners accessible ways to think about “recalibrating” through movement, from targeted reflex-integration approaches to supportive activities like yoga, tai chi, climbing and balance work. The overarching message is that better understanding of neurodevelopment can reduce blame, increase inclusion and help people of all ages find practical routes to thriving.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Inclusion Bites: Sparking Change Conversations
- 03:30 — From Diagnosis to Neurotherapy Advocate
- 08:46 — Understanding ADHD and Rejection Sensitivity
- 12:42 — Fear Reflex Impacts Social Interaction
- 16:44 — Instincts: Survival Overrides Happiness
- 18:57 — Neck Reflexes Affecting Movement
- 21:44 — Developing Sensory and Motor Coordination
- 23:57 — Retained Reflexes Impact Learning
- 27:38 — Reflex Integration: A Lifelong Aid
- 32:30 — Movement Boosts Brain Health
- 34:04 — Enhancing Balance Through Movement Practices
- 38:11 — Shifting Attitudes Towards Illness
- 43:05 — Childhood Go-Kart Adventures
- 44:23 — Pram Wheel Go-Kart Mishap
- 50:05 — Procrastination's Crippling Effects
- 51:20 — Uncontainable Exuberance Cycle
- 54:11 — Entrepreneurship and Academic Underperformance Link
- 57:35 — "Inclusive Narratives: Till Next Time"

## Key takeaways

- The fundamental influence of primitive reflexes on learning, behaviour, and emotional regulation throughout life.
- How undiagnosed neurodivergent traits often reveal themselves through generations, highlighting familial patterns and societal gaps in awareness.
- The connection between early childhood movement, integration of reflexes, and the development of executive function, spatial skills, and self-regulation.
- Practical impacts of retained reflexes in educational and workplace environments, including difficulties with organisation, attention, handwriting, and social engagement.
- Movement-based and sensory strategies to assist both children and adults in overcoming challenges linked to neurodevelopmental differences.
- The nuanced relationship between societal expectations, stigma, and the mental health of those with ADHD, dyslexia, and other processing differences.
- Actionable steps to promote inclusion, such as normalising diverse learning experiences, supporting risk-taking in childhood, and advocating for tailored support rather than pathologising neurodiversity.

## FAQs

### What are primitive reflexes, and why are they important?

Primitive reflexes are automatic movement patterns that emerge from conception and typically integrate within the first year of life. They lay the neurological foundation for higher-order brain functions, including socialisation, executive functioning, balance, and learning. If these reflexes fail to integrate properly, they may remain active, subtly influencing behaviour, movement, and even emotional responses throughout life.

### How do primitive reflexes impact neurodivergent individuals, especially those with ADHD or dyslexia?

Active primitive reflexes can exacerbate difficulties commonly seen in neurodivergent people, such as challenges with focus, organisation, coordination, and social interaction. For example, retained reflexes may contribute to struggles with eye-tracking (affecting reading), posture, spatial awareness, anxiety in social situations, and processing sensory information.

### What led Niki McGlynn to neurodevelopment therapy and ADHD coaching?

Niki’s journey began with her own late diagnosis of dyslexia and ADHD, which followed her daughter’s similar experience. Seeing the struggles both her and her daughter faced, Niki sought solutions and discovered neurodevelopmental therapy—focusing on movement and reflex integration—ultimately becoming a practitioner and trainer to help others unlock their potential.

### How do retained reflexes present in everyday life, both in children and adults?

Retained reflexes can show up as difficulties in sitting still, concentrating, reading, writing, balance, organisation, and emotional regulation. Physical manifestations might include fidgeting, sensitivity to sensory inputs, poor posture, and awkwardness with tasks demanding fine motor skills. There can also be psychological effects, such as heightened anxiety or social withdrawal.

### Can reflex integration still be achieved in adulthood, or is it only possible in childhood?

It is possible to integrate primitive reflexes at any age through targeted movement-based programmes. While children typically respond more quickly due to greater neuroplasticity, adults also see benefits with persistence. Activities might include bespoke neurodevelopmental exercises, yoga, dance, climbing, or even simple practices like balance work.

### Why does modern childhood development sometimes lead to more pronounced neurodivergent traits?

Modern childcare practices, such as decreased unstructured movement (e.g., more time strapped in car seats, less risky play, and limited crawling), can hinder the natural integration of primitive reflexes. This can intensify issues related to neurodiversity, making traits like dyslexia, ADHD, and sensory processing difficulties more observable or acute.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Foreign.

Niki McGlynn: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 166 with the title Powering Minds One reflex at a time. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Niki McGlynn. Niki is a neurodevelopment therapist, trainer and ADHD coach, dedicated to helping people unlock their full potential through movement and understanding primitive reflexes. When I asked Niki to describe her superpower, she says it is translating neurodevelopment science into life changing movement strategies. Hello, Niki, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne, lovely to have you here. Whereabouts in the world are you? So I'm based just outside

Joanne Lockwood: Reading, which is about 40 miles west of London in a small leafy town called Wokingham. Called where, sorry? Wokingham. Wokingham. Oh, I know Wokingham. I'm

Niki McGlynn: in a suburb of between Portsmouth and Petersfield. So. Okay. Oh, I never too far away. I wouldn't say quite a leafy suburb, but there are leaves and it is a suburb, but it's close. It's towny, I suppose, other than villagey. So, Nikki, your journey into neurodevelopment therapy. I think predictably, based on what you've written in your show notes, it's down to your own undiagnosed dyslexia and adhd. So how do you get into into associated this with reflexes and movement? So

Joanne Lockwood: really my journey was started with my daughter who at age 12 was diagnosed with dyslexia and I was 40 at the time and became very obvious from her diagnosis that I had the same issue. So I got a diagnosis and then discovered actually very recently that, that my mum had suspected I was dyslexic when I was very young. But at that point my dad didn't believe in dyslexia. So kind of nothing happened. So. And it's very. I find working within this sort of neurodivergent world, that it's a very common progression now is that. Is that parents get their children diagnosed and then recognise their own issues. So she was diagnosed with dyslexia and then more recently diagnosed with ADHD just after the pandemic. And same thing, you know, it's that greater understanding that we now have of how neurodiversity exhibits in women and girls and a lot of that was discounted or not recognised until. Until very recently. So she got her diagnosis, I got my diagnosis and the rest is history. But I think seeing her really struggle at school and knowing how I'd struggled at school and at college and at university, I didn't want her to have to deal with the same issues that I dealt with and, and I thought there had to be, there has to be something that I can do to help her. So I started to look and came across this whole world of neurodevelopment therapy, which is movement based and really effective, and learned some of the techniques to help her and it. And it made a huge difference. And then I started to pursue it, learned how to practise with movement programmes and then eventually became a trainer myself. As you're

Niki McGlynn: talking now, I'm thinking our son, who was born in the early 90s, we realised that he was struggling to learn to read. I have to admit, as a parent, I was getting really frustrated with him. I didn't understand it. There was no obvious label sign on his forehead saying, I'm different, I've got a dyslexic problem. We just thought that he was being awkward and not trying. And I remember going through flashcards in the Alphabet. Yeah, A for Apple, B for B and whatever, B for butterfly. And it's like that, what's this? He wouldn't know. I said A for Apple. And then I'd put it down, I'd pick it back up again, ask him again within a few seconds, and he wouldn't, he just wouldn't be able to grasp it. And it was really, really frustrating. It's so frustrating. My,

Joanne Lockwood: my biggest issue with processing is I'm dyscalculic, so I can't do numbers, can't do numbers at all. But my grandfather was a maths teacher, so as a child I would have to go on a Sunday afternoon and have maths lessons with my grandfather and he would explain things to me, which I. Which I understood, I thought I understood. We'd go through it, it was fine. And then we'd go back to it and I would. Wouldn't have a clue. And I had the word stupid thrown at me on many, many occasions by my father and my grandfather. And that's the conclusion you come to. One must be stupid, must be stupid. And all the other moving parts of being dyslexic or adhd, those executive function problems of not being able to organise yourself, not being able to keep your life organised, your home life organised, your school bag organised, all of that stuff you, you don't realise is part of that processing condition. So you grow up feeling like you just. Yeah, a bit hopeless. Well, the thing I came to realise was that

Niki McGlynn: it's not a kind of black and white thing. You don't. It's not that you can't read this, you can't read that, or you don't know this or you don't know that. You develop coping strategies or you can recognise certain patterns or shapes. You may not be able to. You may not be able to understand that's an A, that's a B, that's a C, or whatever it is, but you, you kind of know that's a word, you're reinforcing it enough times. So I think what was frustrating with our son was he wasn't stupid, he wasn't incapable of functioning in the world, it was just. He was incapable of learning his Alphabet, associating the letter with the object and then. But he was able to follow along a reading book with you or something like this. So that's where we were quite confused.

Joanne Lockwood: Is often very advanced in people who are dyslexic. And of course now how they teach reading in schools is to use phonics. And dyslexic people can't work with phonics at all. They're far better off learning the old fashioned way of literally spelling out words and learning to recognise the shape of a word is a much easier way for dyslexics to be able to learn.

Niki McGlynn: Yeah, because, you know, we read a book, we read something on the screen, whatever it is, we're not reading every letter, we're recognising the peaks and troughs and the pattern of that word, aren't we? We can look at whole sentences almost and gather the essence of what it's trying to say without reading every word. And that's something you call it speed reading, to call it development, you become very familiar. And I have a real trouble reading novels because the way I pick key bits out of sentences and I don't put any meaning or feeling in there, so I'm just getting facts. And I find it really difficult to absorb myself in something that's nonfiction or fiction, unless it's a technical or I'm trying to research something, in which case I can hyper focus and lift stuff out quite quickly.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So just at what point you look back at your life

Niki McGlynn: and you're seeing, seeing this about yourself, can you see instances in your, in your own development where this jumped out at you now with hindsight and you go, ah, that was that. Ah, that was that. Yeah. 100%. 100%. That whole, you

Joanne Lockwood: know, the, the journey of people with ADHD, which we really only starting to recognise is this, is this all the different parts to it, things like rejection, sensitive dysphoria, which is a sense that people don't like you or that you're being criticised or that you're not kind of part of it, you feel that rejection really, really acutely. And I look back now and I remember that so clearly. And I also so it so clearly in my daughter where she would come home from school and say to me that she, she didn't have any friends and nobody played with her at lunchtime. And I went into school and went, okay, what's going on? This is a problem. And the teachers were like, well, no, she's, she's got this group of friends and she plays with this group of friends and, and people were coming home for tea and she was going to people's house for tea. So it didn't make any sense. And it was only later when I learned about this part of being neurodivergent that it, that I realised that was what was happening. And the same thing had happened to me as a child, only I hadn't realised it. I went to people's houses, fatigue, people came back to me, fatigue. But I felt like I didn't really fit, that I didn't really have a lot of friends. But it's that perception, that whole point where your brain lies to you about, about the reality of what's on, going. Going on,

Niki McGlynn: inhibit you from engaging in social situations? Or is it just how you, or how was it how you remembered the situation? Did it stop you going in? Was it just on the way out? I think

Joanne Lockwood: probably a bit of both. You know, memory is such an odd thing, isn't it? You know, what we remember isn't always accurate, but I think, I think there was a bit of both. I think that partly it stopped me being involved in things and partly My perception was that I wasn't involved in things because that was how it felt.

Niki McGlynn: Yeah, I've seen people have social anxiety without any basis for that. It's just. It's become a kind of a habit or learned behaviour or exacerbated probably over. Covid reflex thing often.

Joanne Lockwood: And this is the thing about primitive reflexes, which nobody's ever heard of. Have you heard of primitive reflexes? Nobody's ever heard of them. And they're really. They're really, really fundamental and they really, really explain a lot of some of the behaviour that we see in people. Not necessarily just people who are neurodivergent, but more typically people are neurodivergent and it makes a lot of sense of why people behave the way they behave. And since the pandemic, that I think has become a lot more obvious. So would you like me to explain what primitive reflexes are? Go for it. Yeah, go for

Niki McGlynn: it. I think. I think I'm fascinated to know. I'm sure that our listeners want to know what it is as well. So primitive reflexes are movement patterns

Joanne Lockwood: that babies make from conception pretty much to about the first year of life. And each of those movement patterns have to express themselves fully and then allow the brain to make certain connections and then they integrate back into your system, so they don't disappear altogether, they lie dormant in your system. So. And they fall into various categories. So the first reflexes that develop are fear reflexes. So you have a fear paralysis reflex and a moro reflex. Now, the moro reflex some people have heard of, and it's that baby startle reflex. So when you have a baby and they're lying in their cot and there's a loud noise or you bump their cot or whatever, and they do that kind of fling their arms back and gasp and startle. That's a morrow reflex. So those two reflexes will have really profound effects on our ability to be able to socialise and function within society. Because although they're called fear reflexes, they don't make you frightened, but they stop you feeling safe. If you don't feel safe, it's very difficult to be able to interact with other people, because fundamentally, you feel unsafe in the world. So the fear paralysis reflex will shut everything down. So if that's a very active reflex for you, it makes it difficult to make eye contact, it makes it very difficult to interact with other people, it makes it difficult to be able to speak out. So if you've got a child who's has selective mutism, often it's the fear paralysis reflex that sits behind that because it literally freezes your vocal cords. So anything that you do that you find that you are unable to do even if you want to. Not procrastination, but that sort of, you know, I really, really want to, but I can't make myself. Can often be a fear paralysis issue. You see it also in children and adults who are really, really good. You know, they're really, really good. They absolutely toe the line because they don't want anybody to interfere with them. So they're the kids who do always do their homework. They don't get into any trouble. They're always really, really well behaved because they don't want to draw attention to themselves. They don't want to get told off. They don't want to be called out. They just want to be left alone. And within schools, that will often work reasonably well. It's, it can often fall apart when they go to university and that, that structure is no longer there. Or sometimes what you see are children who are really, really good at school and that fear paralysis reflex really holds them. And then they go home and then their moro reflex takes over. Now, moro reflex is associated with that fight flight state. So if that's very active, then that's where you see people who have meltdowns or temper tantrums or overly aggressive for what you would see as no particular reason. You know, people who become aggressive because you looked at them or smiled at them. So, and that can often be that, that I don't feel safe in the world. Therefore my best way to deal with that is to attack. Because if I get in first and there are people who then struggle with change. If you have to, they have to move desks at work, they get very cross. If, if the temperature changes, they get very cross. They're not very adaptable. And that whole sensory processing issue where people struggle with noise or too bright lights or fabrics, often that's a moro reflex issue because that sensory processing is associated with that sort of inability to process what's going on in the outer world. That's fascinating.

Niki McGlynn: That's absolutely fascinating. As you're talking, I'm thinking, yeah, I get that now. So the borrow is the fight flight fear. It's a vagus nerve, adrenaline glands. Yeah. And you're at this heightened state of stress. Find it. So when people, people go for help

Joanne Lockwood: for, for, for, for those kind of issues, if those reflexes aren't addressed often, you only ever get so far with recovery. So if, if somebody has ptsd or complex trauma sometimes. What. What stops the recovery from those things are those fear reflexes that are really, really fundamental in development that just sit there and will stop people progressing forwards.

Niki McGlynn: Yeah, I'm just. I think about this, that obviously personal biases kick in the world around them, and biases we know are very primaeval. They're very designed to keep us alive, keep us safe, cut down our processing time. But if you're mixing that with an inclination, if you like to go into a defence mechanism quite quickly, then, yeah, we're going to be driven by these biases quite heavily, aren't we? Well, it's a reflex, you know, it's like

Joanne Lockwood: blinking. It's a reflex. You have no control over it. So often when people don't understand or you don't understand why this person's behaved this way, or you don't understand why you've behaved this way, it can be that that reflex has just kicked in, you know, And I say often to people, we. We're wired for survival, not for happiness. So even though we think we want to do this because it'll make us happy, if our brain, if that real sort of caveman part of our brain perceives it as being dangerous, then it won't let us do the things that we think will make us happy. Yeah,

Niki McGlynn: I mean, going back to what you're saying there, we were wired for that very primaeval caveman, fifties, hundred thousand years ago, when we evolved. Yep. Using. Using Microsoft Word or logging on or writing a book or reading a book wasn't really part of the human design criteria, was it? It was cave painting, if you're lucky, or scratching surfaces or making notches in things. But we're expecting the human brain, the human diversity, if you like, to suddenly all be in tune with the needs of today, when, evolutionary wise, this is like a millisecond in our evolution. Yeah, yeah. And that whole how we bring

Joanne Lockwood: our children up now doesn't. Doesn't really help with neurological development. The brain develops through movement. So the less you move, the less your brain develops. The more you move, the more your brain develops. So with babies now, where babies sleep on their backs, lie on their backs under a baby gym, stay on their backs in car seats, they don't move around. They can't move around in the same way that we used to do in big prams, that will have a fundamental effect. So after the fear reflexes, we have the development of neck reflexes. There's three neck reflexes, and those reflexes are the things that will help with really good executive function, that sort of processing, reading, writing. Neck reflexes control eye movement. So if you've got a problem with tracking left to right, that can often be a neck reflex issue. Organisation. Things like being able to go downstairs, things like being scared of heights. If. If there's. If your first neck reflex, which does this to your head, if that isn't well integrated, if you look down, what your body wants to do is collapse. If that reflex is still active, your body wants to collapse forward or hyperextend backwards. So what happens is when you look down, you feel like you're going to fall, because that reflex wants your body to collapse because it's still active. So people who have trouble with going downstairs or going downhill, often it's that reflex that's causing the problem. Or the other neck reflex turns your head from side to side. So again, if this reflex is retained, when you turn your head to the side, the side you've turned your head to, you, your arm and leg wants to extend out and the opposite arm and leg want to come in, so you get this kind of movement. So if you're driving in the car with somebody and they. They look at their sat nav, or they look over their shoulder and they suddenly swerve. That's why. It's because this arm wants to come in, this arm wants to go out and they swerve. Or if you're riding a bicycle and you look behind you, this arm wants to go out, this arm wants to come in and you fall off your bicycle. So there's. There's lots and lots of issues that makes handwriting really difficult, because when you're looking across, when you cross this central midline, this arm wants to extend. So you're trying to hold your pen on the page and write. So often then what people do is they turn their page around and kind of write uphill so they're not having to cross the midline. So. And then that also deals with organisation and spatial awareness and timekeeping and all of those things. Proprioception. Where. Where's my body in space? Where are my arms? Where are my legs? That kind of famous ADHD walk where people swerve around trying to avoid things. That's often because of that neck reflex that isn't functioning properly, to be able to give you that proper feedback about where your arms and legs are. So this neck reflex you're talking about here, we.

Niki McGlynn: We move on from it after about our first year, is that what you're saying?

Joanne Lockwood: Less than that. Less than that, so this, this neck reflex is integrated by doing this movement, okay? So it integrates into your central nervous system, lies dormant. So if you've got a baby who spends all its time on its back, and particularly in a car seat where it can't lift its head properly, that reflex can't integrate. So it sticks around. But if you've got a baby who's lying on its tummy and kind of do that, you know, nod, nod, nod thing, that's part of that integration process. And the side to side one, one of the best ways to integrate that is breastfeeding. So you feed on one side, flip the baby over, feed on the other side. So it learns that it's got two sides and how to cross its midline, brings its thumb into the midline, brings its foot into the midline. So that's, you know, lies on its tummy, picks up toys, brings them to its mouth. So it's kind of learning that I've got two of everything. Learning to work its eyes together, learning to work its ears together so that you develop 3D vision, 3D, 3D hearing, binaural hearing, which you need, you need to have a dominant eye and a dominant ear so that you can work out where sound's coming from, what, what you're looking at. So, so children who, who are, can't converge, who can't focus, that's often a reflex issue. See in the, the third neck reflex is still a neck reflex, but it affects your core. So that's the, that's what we would call the crawling reflex. So when you crawl, you learn how to learn how to accommodate with your eyes. So you learn to look near and look far and be able to focus. You look down where you're crawling, you look up where you're going. So your, your brain learns to do that process so that you can focus near, focus far, and focus your eyes together. And then that helps with being able to focus at the right length to be able to read and write and paint and draw. And societies who don't have crawling as a developmental stage don't have written language. So written language, fine art comes from being able to have the right focal length from crawling. So babies who don't crawl, babies who sit up and then get up and stand, or get up and walk, run. Because nine month old babies don't want, they run so they don't fall over. Babies at bottom shuffle often have those kind of focus improvements. Wow, I'm fascinated by this. Let me just sort of translate

Niki McGlynn: it into my language. So what the baby's doing or the, in their early stage of life are doing is what we're trying to do is calibrate our senses, our eyes, our hearing or whatever it may be with our muscles and movement so that we can understand cause and effect. If I do this, this happens. My eyes need to compensate, I need to adjust by movement. So it's all part of that learning to drive a car type thing. It takes us six months to a year to become comfortable and spatially aware. That's all the newborn and the young, the toddler's doing is calibrating all these senses and muscle movements. And those muscle movements

Joanne Lockwood: then allow the body and the brain to do things naturally. So for instance, if you've got a child who's got a retained neck reflexes, so when they look down at their desk, they want to slump forward, they want to slump on the desk, put their hand on the desk, lie on the desk, and the teacher says to them, right, sit up, pay attention. So you should be able to sit up naturally without having to think about it. But if those reflexes are active, you have to make yourself sit up. So all of, all of your learning brain, all of your cortex, your prefrontal cortex is taken up with, I must sit up straight and look forwards. So there's no space left then for learning. Because the learning part of your brain is focusing on sitting up straight. Whereas if those reflexes are integrated, you can naturally sit up straight because you are not fighting against that reflex that makes you want to collapse. So we've never developed those as autonomous movements. They're conscious

Niki McGlynn: movements rather than subconscious movements. Exactly, rather. Yeah, yeah. So and because it's, that's taxing in the prefrontal cortex because we're actively having to think about, focus on it. As you say, I haven't got space for anything else in my prefrontal cortex because I'm so worried about whatever I'm, whatever I've been told to focus on. Exactly, exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: So I'm focusing, I'm looking at you, the teacher, I'm focusing on what you're saying. I can't look down and write because if I look down I want to collapse. So I have to just, you know, keep my fingers crossed and stay upright and look upright. So same with the spinal reflexes particularly, there's a reflex called the spinal galant reflex, which lives either side of the lower spine. So that reflex, its job is to help you get born and it's to help with the, with the kind of side to side movement. So if that reflex remains active in your system, it stops you from being able to be still. You have to move. You have to move all the time.

Niki McGlynn: Fidgety bum, as we would say. Exactly. Bum. Exactly that. And

Joanne Lockwood: that's a reflex. That's your spinal gland reflex. And it lasts all the way through if it isn't integrated. So. And it makes it difficult to sit still. It makes it difficult to be still. So this is why wobble cushions and things that allow children to move, allows them to concentrate, because if they're trying to sit still, their whole brain is taken up with sitting still. Whereas if they're. If they're allowed to move, their body can move, but they can focus on what they need to learn. But that reflex also interferes with your ability to listen. So I have children who come to me who've had a hearing test. There's nothing wrong with their hearing, but they struggle to listen. Because in the womb, the spine helps to conduct sound up to the brain because your ears are full of fluid. So if that reflex is still active after you're born, your spine is still trying to conduct sound up to your brain, and your ears are trying to conduct sound into your brain, so it becomes overwhelming, so you stop listening. So those are the people who, if somebody drops a pen at the back of the class, they've got to turn around and look. Or if somebody stands behind you, is. That most of us, really? No,

Niki McGlynn: it's hard not to override that. What's that noise? Isn't it? It's hard to. Hard to override that. Well, I find it hard. I have to bring it in. I have to bring it into my prefrontal corsets to go, don't turn around, don't turn around. I mustn't turn around. I can resist the urge. But my inclination, I suppose it's a primal reflex, is to look over and say, is that a threat? Is that. Exactly. Do I need to worry about it? Exactly. Because you've got to be safe. So, yeah, so

Joanne Lockwood: all of that, all of the fidgeting, being overly chatty, not being able to listen, not being able to pay attention, not being able to tolerate labels in the back of your trousers, not being able to wear things that are tight around your waist, all of that is that reflex, nighttime bedwetting. If children are not able to control their bladders beyond about the age of five, often it's that spinal galantic reflex that's causing the problem. So they have massive implications for children, but also for adults, and yet nobody knows about them and you can encourage them to integrate at any age. So even if you have somebody who is really struggling as an adult, you can still do reflex integration and it makes life easier. So you can recalibrate yourself later in life once

Niki McGlynn: you're aware of it. Absolutely. Obviously it's quicker in children because their brains are

Joanne Lockwood: more plastic and things change much more quickly. They. But absolutely. An adult. Well, when you're an adult, there's adulting

Niki McGlynn: to do, isn't there? And it's finding time for these. These children activities when you're just lying on the floor crawling. It's much easier to do that when you. When you've got no responsibilities of life and no one's judging you, it's, oh, what a good girl, what a good boy. Well done. You're sitting up. Oh, you've crawled across the floor. Isn't that cute? Try and do that as an adult. People are going to look at you and go, what are you doing on the floor? What are you trying to do there? I'm doing my crawling.

Joanne Lockwood: I'm increasing my brain capacity. I've

Niki McGlynn: got issues with my neck reflexes. What I've got to try and do here is crawl across the floor, look up, practise looking left and right without moving my arms, and I've got to make my bum stop hearing noises and pass it to my brain. Exactly that. Exactly that. So I was being a bit flippant and a bit jokey there. So how. I mean, I'm hoping someone listening might be able to identify some of these traits. What can someone do in terms of, you know, just pick one of these reflexes at a time? Maybe the. How can people unlearn or retrain or recalibrate themselves in later life? So what you're. What you're looking to do is

Joanne Lockwood: integrate those reflexes. So you want those reflexes to essentially become absorbed into your central nervous system. And the simplest way to do it is through movement. There's lots and lots of different approaches of how to do it. I believe the best way to do it is. Is to do it with the person as a whole, rather than pick out each individual reflex. So you find movements that will work on that whole system and then target different reflexes as you need to. But that's what I do in my clinic and that's what I train people to do. But also you can. There's lots and lots of information available online these days. It's becoming a much. Although nobody's heard of it, it is better understood than it was. So there's books, there's information online. If it's something that people are interested in, absolutely, you can find out information. I would always recommend going to a provider, going to somebody who can support you because you're working. Sometimes you're. Particularly if you're working with the fear reflexes, you can work with quite sensitive parts of your system, so it's better if you've got support for that. You know, if it's something that you want to explore 100%, you can just Google it, Just Google retained primitive reflexes and see what comes up.

Niki McGlynn: So is it. Is it dance, is it yoga, is it activities? I mean, just for people who may be thinking, oh, that sounds. That's how I want to explore. What are they signing up for?

Joanne Lockwood: So there are bespoke reflex integration programmes which will target those primitive reflexes generally. However, any kind of physical movement will improve the connections in your brain. So maybe not dance, which is a little bit sedentary, but. But yoga would be good. Dancing is good. Anything. Climbing is really good. You know, climbing is crawling on a different plane, so. So, you know, climbing is great for being able to get your brain to work, you know, and that whole being able to move your arms and legs separately without your head getting involved. Brilliant. You know, climbing is fantastic for the. That.

Niki McGlynn: It's a bit like learning to drive again, isn't it? You spend the first couple of driving lessons constantly aware of everything, looking over your shoulder, turning the wheel, instructor grabbing the wheel, saying, when you look over your shoulder, don't turn the wheel, it will listen. And then eventually, after three or four months, you're off and becomes ingrained into the back of your head. So what we talk about here is doing exercises, movements that allow you to build that sort of brain image of yourself, your spatial awareness of where your parts are, where your senses are, and connect those little dots in your brain. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly that, exactly that.

Joanne Lockwood: And of course, you know, as we get older, the other thing to remember is that movement builds your brain. So staying active isn't just about keeping physically fit, it's about keeping your brain fit as well. But movement will keep your brain much healthier than doing puzzles and things, because it. Because it's building connections all the time, which is why things like dancing is really good. You know, whether you're, you know, going out to a nightclub or whether you're going to a tea dance or learning dancing like on Strictly, you know, that repetitive pattern, that sequencing pattern that's social and enjoyable and relaxed will massively help. Your brain as we get to later life. I mean, I'm

Niki McGlynn: in my 60s now, so I don't know how that happened. I was turned around. I went from 40 to 60 without noticing. I've noticed that my sense of balance isn't what it was. My reaction times, my. Maybe my risk quotient's gone down, but when I'm driving, I drive a lot slower and it still seems fast, but I realised that I'm causing holdups in country lanes now. In the past, I'd be the one pushing somebody else. I'm. I'm more reserved. Is that part of the brain slowing down? Is that losing connection with my reflexes? Yeah, yeah. So it's. It's that as we age,

Joanne Lockwood: reactions do become slower. Twitch muscles, which are the muscles that stop you from falling, stop working as well. So. So all of that is part of that process. But you can. You can improve all of that. You can reverse it in some cases. Which is why things like yoga and tai chi and qigong are all really good, because they help to encourage your balance system, your vestibular system, and developmentally, your vestibular system is the first sense that develops in the womb. So. And often that's one of the things that we have to look at where children's vestibular system isn't great, their sense of balance isn't great, their cerebellum isn't. So cerebellum is the bit at the back of your brain, that sort of extra bit that. That helps with balance and movement and memory and all sorts of things. And if that isn't working too well, then that's something that you can. You can work on. That's something we work with. We use a lot of spinning in chairs. Spinning in chairs is really good. So spinning is really good. So not spinning, you know, cycling, spinning, but spinning round and round is really good because it helps to develop your vestibular system. Anything like that is great. So you try to get your inner ear,

Niki McGlynn: or the little fluids in there, the little hairs, that movement going around. So you then lock on and again recalibrating your senses. Yep, yep,

Joanne Lockwood: yep, yep. So that whole thing, I don't know if you've ever come across the idea that you stand on one leg when you brush your teeth. You ever heard of that? Okay, so that's a really, really good thing to do. Really, really good thing to do as you get older. You stand on one leg as you brush your teeth and then you swap legs as you need to. Need to Stand on one leg at a time, but that helps with your balance, but it also helps with your bone density. So if you stand on one leg, the more you use your bones, the denser they get. So stand on one leg. It helps with your balance, helps keep you sharp and bright, and helps everything else work, and it also helps with bone density.

Niki McGlynn: So it's all part of this use it or lose it mantra. As you get older, if you, if you sit down too much, you're going to lose the ability to be as agile and flexible as you once were. So keeping active, keeping, keeping the movement going. Which is why we see some people in their 90s doing marathons and some people in their 60s struggling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there is, There is part

Joanne Lockwood: of that whole process of life is as we get older, to kind of withdraw a bit more. That's. That's part of. Oh, that's just part of nature. We want to go out less. We want to not drive as fast. We don't want to stay up as late. That is part of that whole ageing process. And for some people it's fine, and for some people it's not. But if you want to stay active and you want to stay out in the world, then you have to do it.

Niki McGlynn: Yeah. You have to. You have to use it or lose it. And I, I agree. It's very easy to. The opposite of FOMO is Jomo, isn't it? The joy of missing out. You know, you could quickly develop this. I don't care. I don't need to. I'm not, I'm not jealous anymore. I think that's. That's a Covid thing, you know, lockdown come out, that you think I've lost, Lost the impetus now, definitely. It's. I find it really interesting, actually, that if you do go

Joanne Lockwood: out of an evening, Everywhere's empty by 10 o'. Clock. Everybody's gone home by 10 o'. Clock. And I think, I think that's. I think that's. That's definitely a post Covid thing. Definitely, definitely. But, yeah, people change their habits. Yeah, yeah. But when you look back at the reflexes, that whole. Those fear reflexes, that fear paralysis reflex, that Moro reflex which stops you from feeling safe, you know, all of a sudden for, you know, two or three years, the world became a very, very unsafe place. And that's particularly affected children, that all of a sudden strangers were unsafe, school was unsafe. It's. It's not safe to be around other people. It's not safe to go to the park. So that's had a really profound effect developmentally on those children who have grown up through those years. But I think the same for adults as well is that all of a sudden the world doesn't feel like a safe place. And then of course you see what's going on across the world, you know, the rise of the far right. And I think again, you know, that happens because people don't feel safe and then it makes other people feel, feel less safe. So we sort of end up in this self perpetuating route. I think we've also developed this fear of

Niki McGlynn: catching something off somebody else. In the past, you know, we would send our children to chickenpox parties and we deliberately make sure that our children were being exposed to as many coughs and sneezes as possible. Now we're fighting back against vaccines and saying they must be dangerous. Well, no more dangerous than the actual disease or the illness they're preventing. But we've become kind of this risk averse about everything. We'd rather stay in. If I got a sniffle, I'm going to do myself a COVID test. If I'm a bit dodgy, I'll just keep out of Everybody's way. Whereas 10 years ago we would just be out there gung ho, apologising. Yeah, yeah. So I think in some ways we're taking a step back here because our bodies are designed to reprogram themselves from the environment. If we're not giving them all these threats and how can we ever evolve to counteract them? We're just becoming. Exactly,

Joanne Lockwood: exactly. This whole risk aversion thing has a, you know, and it's the same with things like, you know, children's equipment in parks where slides aren't very slidy, swings aren't very swingy, roundabouts don't go very fast because everybody's scared that they're, they're going to get hurt. But it's important, you know, risk, risk taking is, is important in development. Children need to take risks. Adults, you don't learn through getting it right, do you?

Niki McGlynn: You have to hurt yourself to know what hurting yourself feels like. Kids

Joanne Lockwood: bounce. I mean, when you're a certain age you do bounce. You know, if you're

Niki McGlynn: less than 18 months, you can fall off a bed and you just go. Bit of a cry, bit of a hug, rub their back. Every night it's raining again, nothing damaged, nothing broken. But now I remember going to the park as a little un and down the slides and the swings and we were trying to see how high we could get. If we could go over the top and do a 360 on it. Yeah. The rocking horse. You'd be six of us on this rocking horse trying to send it into space. It was like, I mean it must be horrendous. And the roundabout. I remember we used to have a game where we used to lay on it and put stuff, stuff underneath it, spin it around it. Somebody had to try and pick up the thing that was underneath. Yeah. God knows what happened. That's so

Joanne Lockwood: good. That's so good for the development of your brain. So good. But yeah, can't do it anymore. I know. Do you remember the witch's hat? No, I don't remember that one. Is that the one that used to

Niki McGlynn: rock and sway in things? Yeah. Like a big upside down cone on a pole

Joanne Lockwood: swung back and forward and bang against the pole. Got that in the stomach more than once. Yeah. I mean, I know

Niki McGlynn: we don't want anyone to become seriously hurt, die or whatever it may be. Cuts and grazes and a thoroughly good learning exercise it sometimes needed. I don't remember any, anybody that I remember at that age coming to any real harm. Okay. They may have had a black eye or a grazed knee or, or bit. Been a bit poorly when they crashed off their chopper bike at the time. A city chopper, bunch of those tiny wheels. Remember going down this, this massive road near us with that really steep hill downwards. And we used to. One person had a chopper. We used to take turns and going down this hill on this chopper bike and I, I don't know, I'm going to guess we were probably getting up to 20, 25 miles an hour which is pretty scary on a bike anyway. But on a chopper where you got no stability on that front wheel and the number of times we used to crash and burn off of that and just pick ourselves off and laugh our heads off and, and get going. Trudge home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now you just wouldn't do it. You just wouldn't do it. And you don't see kids out

Joanne Lockwood: in the same way, you know. And so one of, one of the best things, one of the best things you can do for brain development for children. Most adults can't do this because they feel sick, but they should. Are rolling down hills, log rolls down a hill. And I used to live next to a park that had a great big hill and, and I never saw, never saw kids doing it. Never. Everybody's worried about dog poo now. But I say to people that's what your washing machine's for get your kids running down a hill because it's, It's. It helps with that vestibular system because you're spinning. Proprioception is great because you're. You're putting pressure on the body as it rolls over. You're having to focus with your eyes, your ears are having to work. It's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Brilliant for your interoception and your external senses. It's balanced and vestibular is balance. Interoception is, am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Do I need to go to the toilet? Am I tired? All of those things that the kids need to learn to develop. But when you're rolling down a hill and your body's, you know, sloshing round, that really helps with the feedback to your brain. It's all about the. I remember that your body's giving to your brain.

Niki McGlynn: I remember as a nipper, we used to take our go karts to the top of Portsdown Hill. It's probably. I look back at it and I think, how did I ever walk up all that way to top of Ports Down Hill? It must have been. It's probably five miles from home. We used to wheel our go karts five miles up there and we used to launch ourselves off the top down this grassy, steep hill on our go karts, chaining off for dear life. Somebody on the back, you know, pinning a pillion. And I remember this one time we got to the bottom and we end up crashing into the fence at the bottom of the. Of this hill and. And putting our go kart nose through the bottom of this fence. And they were coming out chasing us off. But, yeah, we were worried about hitting the tree. There's these park benches spread around, you know, over the top of a hill, you'd be going, oh, mind the. Mind the bench. But, yeah, it's all part of that. Yeah. Risk your own go kart. Did you buy one? Say again? Did you make your own go kart or did you buy one? I. No, no, my father. Well, I say I made it. My father did. We made it out of. He. He was a woodwork craft teacher. And so we took. We took old prams. Yeah, we had. We had. It was proper. Proper. I think it was an old wardrobe door or something. Or a wardrobe bill. Old oak wardrobe that he chopped up. He cut. It was really styled like a racing car. Had proper movement, wooden front axle and everything. And it had these pram wheels. Wheels. Yeah, yeah. And what we soon realised was these pram wheels had, like, a quick release button and you can take them off and put them back on, which is great for storage, but you'd be going down this hill and suddenly hear this click, click wheel would come off. It's like your wheel would head that way. And if you go straight down. So quick release wheels on a go kart were not a good design feature, so we had to fix that one and put some split pins in to stop them coming off. But, yeah, I mean, we certainly did our neurological development back then. We were out active and, yeah, living in fear sometimes. So I do wonder when we talk about this

Joanne Lockwood: massive rise in neurodivergent conditions, you know, part of that is 50% of the population couldn't have a diagnosis. So now we're diagnosing 20% of that 50%. But also I wonder if really the symptomatology is now so much stronger because we don't do those things anymore that would allow the brain to develop. So people are more dyslexic, have more ADHD symptoms, have more autistic symptoms, because the things that we would have done as children would have helped overall with brain development. So those conditions were less obvious.

Niki McGlynn: Is some of that a boy girl thing? Boys being more rough and tumble, girls being more reserved? I'm not trying to imply stereotypes here, but traditional girls were less out there, weren't they?

Joanne Lockwood: I think so, but I think girls was certainly equally as active, just in a. Maybe a different way. Yeah, in a different way. In a different way. Yeah. I have

Niki McGlynn: friends, little. We'd all climb trees, we'd all mess around, we'd all do stuff. So, yeah, I just wondered maybe the risk averseness comes more from a gender stereotyping or gender nurturing than. Which is why we didn't see it manifesting itself in young women until more recently when we were looking at different symptoms. I think it's

Joanne Lockwood: just not a great understanding of how those conditions manifested because I think with. If you look at adhd, for example, you know, there's three sorts of adhd. There's hyperactive, which is your typical naughty boy at the back of the class throwing chairs, and inattentive, which is your typical girl sitting, looking out of the window, daydreaming, and then combined. But I know hyperactive girls and inattentive boys. And I think it just. It just shows up differently. And girls tend to be much better at masking. So girls tend to be able to, in social situations, be able to look at what everybody else is doing and copy that and. And change their behaviour so that it doesn't Show. And then when they go home, you know, the wheels fall off. And. And of course that causes problems because. Because when you're looking for, you know, if you have a daughter and you're looking for a diagnosis, it doesn't show up at school. So when. When the school sends a report back, they go, no, we're not aware of any of this. Not aware of any of this behaviour. Well, no, because they're masker, you know, we need better education really, within schools as to how these conditions show up so that children can get the help that they need, so that they can function in society. Because neurodivergent people are incredibly important in moving society forwards.

Niki McGlynn: Yes, I suppose young boys, they're disruptive, they're trouble, hard to manage, hard to keep doing something. They're most likely more likely to be a problem for the teacher. Whereas, as you say, a young girl is being quiet, relaxed, maybe not fully. Fully living up to her potential, but she's not disrupting anybody. She's seen as not a problem. Say again? Yeah, I can see that, because I hit puberty. Sorry? I remember hitting. I remember hitting puberty and. And turning into a completely different person where I became completely disruptive, completely unmanageable in certain subjects, ones that I couldn't latch onto, whereas in the other subjects I was a model pupil. So I'm like that now. I'm either both feet in or both feet out. I can't do a bit in or bit out. I'm either. And I like to hyperfocus on things, pull them apart, put it back together 50 times. I go, right, I'm bored with that now. Move on to the next thing. So when you look back later in life, you think you hear other people's stories, you go, wow, yeah, that sounds like me. Yeah, sounds like me. That sounds like me. But it's never been a problem in my life. It's just something that I've become aware of as being maybe call it a superpower, call it just part of who I am. And I now embrace that side of me going, if I. If I realise that I'm in that kind of. This isn't really for me. I just get out quickly. I just don't bother trying to push myself because I know I won't be interested and I'll be focusing on some shiny object or a squirrel running down on the fence or something. Yeah. Which is

Joanne Lockwood: great, isn't it? It's great that you have. That you have that ability to be able to make those choices now. So. And. And I think, and I think that's where, that's where it really works to our advantage. But I do think that for a lot of people it's massively debilitating not being able to. Not being with society, not being able to make friends, not being able to be in public spaces, not being able to make yourself do things. You know, the procrastination of poor executive function is really crippling. Even if it's something that you think you want to do, if your brain has decided it's not worth it, then it's really difficult to override the. Not being able to organise yourself, not being able to pay bills, not being able to, you know, all of these other parts to, to those kind of conditions can be. Be really debilitating and that's really where we need to be able to support people so that they can live up to their potential, so that they can do the hyper focus or the innovation or the creativity that's so important, the human experience.

Niki McGlynn: Yeah, that's really interesting. Very interesting. I've got a couple of friends who are. They can become very hyperactive. You know, one of the friends is. They start chatting and chatting and chatting and chatting. Okay, can we watch the film now? Can we watch the telly? Can we focus on this? And they almost feel like chastise and they go, hmm. They shut down for a bit and they go. Then after about five minutes they go, see, I'm being quiet, aren't I? But by telling me you're being quiet means that you must be hyper focusing on this part of your brain, complying to my, my request. And then all of a sudden not.

Joanne Lockwood: Watching the film because all of their attention is on being still and quiet. Yeah. And then they, it bursts out again and

Niki McGlynn: they can't stop themselves and it's like. And you go, come on, come on. Goes into this cycle continually where they, they're behaving, complying with a request and then suddenly they can't help themselves and they want to be disruptive and it's almost like attention seeking, but it's not, it's. They've got this exuberance that they can't keep it in. And it's. I've noticed it in a couple of people that I end up just laughing about it now. And it's, it's, it's who they are.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's their spinal gland. You need to say, that's your spinal gland. You should sort that out. I'll get them to Google it and

Niki McGlynn: see what they say. Yeah, and look up a therapist or a practitioner who can give them some guidance, because I suppose it also connects. You know, you talked earlier about diet, regulation of intake and movement and exercise, things like that. I guess if you're. If you haven't overcome all of these incongruences and developmental learning and calibration, then you are going to be off kilter in certain aspects of your life, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. And of

Joanne Lockwood: course, we associate so many of those things with a moral failing. You know, if you can't wash up, if you can't control your appetite, if you. If you can't organise yourself. We see it as a moral failing as opposed to not understanding that. Actually it's a processing issue. It's a. It's a neurological issue that's, you know, and if we support people in that position, then. Then it doesn't need to be a moral issue. It can just be something that somebody needs support with. Well, our social constructs

Niki McGlynn: of society are telling us this is how you should behave. And it associates shame or guilt or all these unhelpful emotions get associated with it and you feel like a failure, not succeeding, embarrassed, whatever it may be. So, yeah, it's trying to normalise these conversations so that people understand that they're just different, they have a different way of dealing with things. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah, yeah. And it's not wrong. And this is why there's such a huge suicide rate associated with people, particularly with undiagnosed adhd. The mortality rate for life expectancy for people with ADHD is much lower than it should be. Having undiagnosed ADHD is a greater risk than smoking, you know, and you think of all the. All the work we put into trying to stop people from smoking. So it's a serious, serious issue. Does

Niki McGlynn: that all key down to lack of social worth, lack of social integration?

Joanne Lockwood: Well, children with ADHD are told off 20,000 times more than their neurotypical peers. So there's a lot of shame associated with that. There's a lot of, I must be stupid, I must be a failure, I must be useless, I must be what's wrong with me? Why can't I. I should be able to. That's interesting. Yeah, I can see

Niki McGlynn: that as well. I think I saw something on. I think it was LinkedIn or some article on one of the car news sites talking about how this is correlation between entrepreneurship and not being an A grade student. Because being perceived a failure or having to try hard or not always succeeding gives you better resilience, better adaptability, which is an entrepreneurial trait. Whereas if you're used to getting everything right, your success comes easy. You've never experienced failure, which is what we talked about earlier, about this development stage where you have to learn what failure feels like in order to be able to cope and adapt. Where. And entrepreneurs tend to be neurodiverse. They tend to be people who have not succeeded academically because they've learned alternate ways of interacting with the world that is benefit their entrepreneurship, I suppose. But also people who are neurodiverse see the

Joanne Lockwood: world in such a different way, you know, so that's where that creative thinking comes from. Being able to think laterally, being able to see patterns, being able to understand and often see answers very, very quickly. And they're also not very good at doing what they're told. Much easier to be an entrepreneur, but it's to work. Prudential or

Niki McGlynn: a comedian. You look at most professional comedians, they have exactly the same traits, don't they? They see the world differently, they find different things funny, they see patterns and stuff that are humorous often and not being governed by social contracts or rules of how you supposed to behave. Nikki, it's been absolutely fascinating. I've loved talking to you and I'm sure we could just carry on for hours. I've got so many more questions which they're more personal questions, but yeah, I think we'll let individual listeners contact you if they need to. So how can people get a hold of you? It's. My business is

Joanne Lockwood: Organised Mind, which is an aspirational business name because I don't have one and so I'm. My website is organised mind.co.uk and I'm on Facebook as Organised Mind. Instagram, LinkedIn. I'm on as Nikki McGlynn, but I'm not very good at Instagram, so I don't. I'm a Facebook generation person.

Niki McGlynn: McGlynn. McGlynn. Yep. And Nikki. N I K I. Brilliant. Well, Nikki, it's been absolutely fascinating to meet you. I'm going to make sure we're connected on LinkedIn and hop onto your Facebook in a minute and say hi. So, yeah, that'd be fun. Love to keep in touch. Brilliant. Lovely talking to you, Joanne. Thank you so much for

Joanne Lockwood: letting me come on. Thank you.

Niki McGlynn: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.