---
title: "Harnessing Humanity For Success"
episode: 164
date: 2025-06-26
guest: "Bhavesh Naik"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/164-harnessing-humanity-for-success
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-164/audio.mp3
---

# Harnessing Humanity For Success

Joanne Lockwood is joined by business performance and longevity expert Bhavesh Naik for a wide-ranging conversation about what self-awareness really means at work, and why it can be a catalyst for healthier, higher-performing teams. Together they explore self-awareness as a lived, in-the-moment practice rather than a purely intellectual idea, including the value of noticing the gap between stimulus and response. Bhavesh offers practical ways to apply this in workplace situations such as meetings, negotiations and leader–employee conversations, and discusses how emotional awareness can support better judgement, empathy and more intentional communication. The discussion also challenges legacy management thinking that treats organisations like machines and people like parts, arguing instead for leadership that prioritises relationships, trust and genuine human connection. Joanne and Bhavesh consider how leaders can move from awareness into action through clearer purpose, shared vision, and structured one-to-one conversations that help people articulate their “why” and align on expectations. The central takeaway is that when leaders learn to lead with awareness—of self, others and context—they can unlock stronger engagement, more inclusive cultures, and more resilient organisational performance.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Show, Don�t Tell: Awareness Perspective
- 06:35 — Transformative Self Awareness
- 13:22 — Situational Awareness Explained
- 16:29 — Language: Labels and Meaning-Making
- 23:37 — Creationism vs. Big Bang Origins
- 30:15 — Finding Common Ground in Diversity
- 32:47 — Perspective: Our Organisational Superpower
- 38:13 — Modernising Management Practices
- 48:00 — Engaging Leadership Conversations Strategy
- 51:57 — Building Trust with Ethical Communication
- 58:36 — Emotional Intelligence in the Workplace
- 01:04:29 — Inclusion Bites: Join the Journey
- 01:05:20 — Inclusive World, Episode by Episode

## Key takeaways

- The transformative impact of realised self-awareness versus mere intellectual self-understanding in organisational settings.
- Techniques for cultivating a 'helicopter view' of oneself and applying that agency to improve interactions and decision-making in real time.
- Using consciousness and flow states as pivotal tools for enhancing focus, collaboration, and creativity in the workplace.
- Practical steps for translating awareness into meaningful action while maintaining alignment with team and organisational purpose.
- Navigating the balance between individual diversity and collective cohesion, and why celebrating uniqueness drives better team performance.
- Understanding why traditional management models are failing and how authentic human engagement is the sustainable antidote.
- Establishing trust, empathy, and psychological safety through simple, recurring conversations that connect personal motivation with organisational vision.

## FAQs

### What is the central theme of this episode?

The core focus is on harnessing humanity for organisational success, with an exploration of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and the power of human-centred leadership. The conversation delves into how embracing humanness and authentic self-reflection can enable individuals and teams to thrive in the modern workplace.

### Who is the guest on this episode, and what is their expertise?

The guest is Bhavesh Naik, a business performance and longevity expert. He specialises in helping leaders and organisations thrive by fostering greater self-awareness and embracing the human aspects of their people, rather than reducing them to mere components within a business machine.

### How does self-awareness relate to workplace performance?

Self-awareness, as discussed, is the intrinsic ability to observe oneself in the moment — to be conscious not only of one’s actions but of the surrounding context. It moves beyond an intellectual understanding of strengths and weaknesses to an ongoing, experiential awareness ("awareness of the self"), which enhances responsibility, decision-making, and ultimately, organisational transformation and success.

### What practical techniques for developing self-awareness were discussed?

The episode outlined practical mental exercises, such as mentally observing oneself as if from an external perspective—akin to a “helicopter view” or playing oneself as an avatar in a video game. Regularly stepping back to monitor thoughts, emotions, and actions, particularly during meetings or key interactions, was recommended. The conversation also drew parallels to athletes performing “in the zone”, emphasising that regular practice enhances this trait.

### How is self-awareness distinguished from emotional intelligence?

Though closely related, self-awareness is presented as the grounding foundation, while emotional intelligence (or “emotional awareness”) depends on one’s ability to observe their feelings and regulate them accordingly. The podcast suggests that true behavioural change stems from recognising, rather than suppressing, one's emotions and patterns.

### How does embracing self-awareness impact organisational culture and inclusion?

By fostering self-awareness among leaders and teams, organisations can move away from outdated, mechanistic management models and cultivate trust, empathy, and open communication. This shift enables individuals to recognise their biases, become receptive to feedback, and actively participate in more inclusive and psychologically safe workplaces, where diversity is not just present but celebrated.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 164 with the title Harnessing Humanity for Success. I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Bhavesh Naik. Bhavesh is a business performance and longevity expert who helps leaders build thriving, resilient organisations by embracing the humanness of their people. And when I asked Bhavesh to describe his superpower, he said it is that he brings a deeply realised sense of self awareness, leadership and organisational success. Hello, Bhavesh. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Joanne, for having me.

Bhavesh Naik: Glad to see you. That's a pleasure. So you're based Washington, is it? If I remember rightly, I'm Outside of Washington D.C. about 10 miles north, northwest, so I'm in Montgomery county for those who might be familiar with the area here. Fantastic. Outside, is it like out there

Joanne Lockwood: at the moment? So we're in February, aren't we? Is it cold? You get icy breezes. It gets cold, yes. Right now today

Bhavesh Naik: is probably 20 degrees Fahrenheit and I don't know what that translates into. Incentigrade, that is definitely below zero, but it might be like 5, 10 degrees below zero. And that, that's pretty, pretty normal for us, you know, this time of the year. So it's, you know. Right. Winter is about to be over, hopefully. But it's cold, luckily. We used to have some storms like really bad snowstorms 5 years, 10 years ago, but we haven't had those for a while. So that's some good news. And I don't know if that's good news or bad news because I know. So it's just

Joanne Lockwood: cold. There's no strong winds and pouring rain and snow. It's just cold. That's true. Yeah, yeah, it's just cold. Bit like going skiing. It's just cold. It's not. It's nice sun, but cold. Exactly,

Bhavesh Naik: exactly, yeah, Cold, yeah. As we're saying, when I read out the

Joanne Lockwood: introduction just now, you believe in self awareness and I'm a great believer in emotional intelligence and being self. Aware. So how does that manifest itself for you in high performing workplaces or what got you into the work you're doing now? Yeah, so self awareness and I, if I can go back a

Bhavesh Naik: little bit. So self awareness to me is, first of all, it's just terminology, views, it's not even a belief to me. It is an experience of being in a certain way, if that makes sense. So self awareness. So if someone googled self awareness, right, There will be a definition that Google spits out which would be some version of, okay, being aware of your strengths and weaknesses. Now that's a very intellectualised version of that. I don't know where that comes from, but when I talk about self awareness, self awareness to me is more of the classic definition or more of a common sense, the literal definition of self awareness, which is self aware awareness of the self. So self is here, this person right here speaking to you and being aware of this person and all his surroundings, right? So. And I like to do this, a bit of an experiment and I want to do this with you if you're game. Joanne, can we do that a little bit? Yeah, yeah, let's go for it.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So just to kind of prove a point, I like to show rather than

Bhavesh Naik: tell because you can use a lot of words, but when you so and our listeners can follow along with us, here I am talking to you. This is my perspective, this person right here, right? And I have my internal experience, right? My thoughts and feelings and all of those things. And then I have my senses, right? So I'm interacting with the outside. So there's sounds and you know, sights and you know, pictures and all the other senses. Like we have five senses. So there's this person talking to you and then there is you. So there is your perspective. You're talking from there or you seeing out from that side right now for both of us there's also, if you know, we have this ability as humans to be able to see ourselves doing whatever it is that we're doing so we can bring an awareness to this person. It's almost like you're coming out of the body and looking at ourselves, but not looking at ourselves, just feeling ourselves. So

Joanne Lockwood: like playing a video game where you're controlling your first person shooter, you're controlling your character on the screen from above rather than being through the eyes. You're exactly an aerial view. Yeah. Now experience.

Bhavesh Naik: Do you feel that a little bit? Yeah, sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's in this moment, right here, right now. So we're having this conversation, right? And I'm speaking to you, and yet there is a faculty here that allows me to observe me speaking to you, having this interaction with you. Yeah, I can snap my mind into that. Yeah. It's not default.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I can. It's not default. Yes. Yeah, but you can get

Bhavesh Naik: into that. And did you get into it? I can see myself in the corner

Joanne Lockwood: of the room over there and see me at the desk. I can do that. Yeah. Okay. Right. And you're using the intellect a little

Bhavesh Naik: bit and it's even easier than that or it's even simpler than that. But we can't do it because. Because we've been trained not to do it. The children are very much like that, right. When they are toddlers, they are leaving that state and then our intellect pulls us out of it. So that is the self awareness that I'm speaking of. And when I talk about self awareness, the realised sense of self awareness, and that's a key word, right. It's not just intellectualised sense of self awareness, it's just being here and experiencing it here. And I'm here most of the time just observing whatever this person is doing right now. I go in and out of it, but I'm probably there 60, 70% of the time when I'm awake. And that's a wonderful way of being because we can talk about that if you want, but that's. So that is an important thing for me to talk about because that is an agent through which in my work, I think transformation can happen within organisation, within teams, within ourselves. I'm just trying to create a metaphor for my own, my own thinking.

Joanne Lockwood: So what we're really doing is by stepping back and observing ourselves, we're taking a additional level of responsibility for the actions you're taking because you're observing those actions in real time, not just being in the action.

Bhavesh Naik: Exactly. Right, Right. Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes we talk about this gift gap between an action and reaction. So something happens and we react to it. Right. So that gap between something happening and we reacting, that gap, you can call that self awareness. Right. So, yeah, exactly what you're saying. I'm. I'm kind of saying the same thing in a different, slightly different way. And that is a very powerful way of being. And there are other connotations of that. You know, for example, that's a very happy place. That's where happiness is. Because this is why children are so happy most of the time. Right? Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I think I'm more aware of that modality of thinking. When I'm planning or imagining what I'm doing tomorrow, or if I'm trying to sequence a project or an outcome, I'll be thinking of me as an avatar computer game navigating the world. And I'm saying, okay, so I'm going to get on the train. I'll see myself getting on the train and I'll be interacting with people. I'll be having conversations, I suppose, more in the future tense. I'm planning my life and my next. What I'm doing through that remote control avatar, if you like. Sure, sure. Probably less so in the moment.

Bhavesh Naik: Okay, yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, yeah. And doing it in the moment is. It takes a little bit of practise, but if you come to it again and again and again, you may feel a certain sense of, like, relaxation. So another way of looking at this is being in the zone, being in the flow. So when people who play sports, when they are. They get into the zone, and when they're into the zone, they're not processing, they're not strategizing, they're not planning, they're not thinking, they're just doing what they need to do. Now, there is an aspect of skill. You know, they've developed certain skills, right. But they're not thinking about, okay, you know, if. If I'm. If I'm shooting a basketball, right, they're not thinking, they're not strategizing, they're just doing it. Right. So. So that makes them. Because if I am strategizing in that moment, if I am practising, right, then I'm not as effective as I would be if I was just being in the moment. And so then if you're going

Joanne Lockwood: into automatic mode, it's. Yeah. When you. When you develop a new skill, from my understanding, is that you would. First of all, you'd be very conscious of what you were trying to do. Right. And then you end up. You then end up with a dip in performance. All right? And then you break through that and then you become better because it becomes embedded in your. In your subconscious. It becomes. Sure.

Bhavesh Naik: Absolutely, yeah. Bit like driving a car. How often do you come home

Joanne Lockwood: from work and you don't realise how you got home? You think, oh, did I Did I, did I stop at that red light? Did I see that red light? Well, you must have done because you're not conscious about that journey.

Bhavesh Naik: Exactly, exactly, exactly. And that's an excellent example, driving, because that's a skill that most of us have really mastered. So once you master a skill, then you go into a zone. Sometimes it's called the state of being in a flow. Right. Where the activity is happening and your mind is engaged. Because your mind is engaged, this person here can just kind of step back and do other things. Now we tend to do a lot of thinking because we are thinking people and we have been trained to think all the time. But if you can let that thinking quiet down a little bit, you can just be, just be present, you can just be in that moment. Right, so like it's right this, right this moment. Right, so if I, if I asked you this question, Joanne, are you aware right now? No. Right, but. So when you say right now. No. Right, but there was a pause. I said, are you aware?

Joanne Lockwood: I had to test, I had to test myself and evaluate in my head whether I was or wasn't and came to the conclusion, no, I'm in the moment right now because I'm focused on the conversation. Yeah. What we're going to talk about next, the, the flow of the podcast. I'm more in active thinking about what we're doing mode rather than observing, if you like. Let me, let me ask you a different

Bhavesh Naik: way. Are you conscious right now? Because you weren't when you were sleeping at night. I'm awake. I'm conscious. I've, I've,

Joanne Lockwood: I've got decision making power. Yeah. Right, so then if I

Bhavesh Naik: ask you again this question. Pause for a bit. Are you conscious?

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I've conscious, yeah. Okay, so you went to some place before answering

Bhavesh Naik: that question. Are you conscious? You went to that place called consciousness. That's an experiential thing. It's not intellectual. So there's a gap there that you went to and then you said, yes, I'm conscious. That is the awareness. So it's a different name for it. Awareness of consciousness. That's the consciousness. And, and it's beyond. The reason why I'm kind of getting a little bit down into this is because this is key. It is so central to everything that I talk about in my work with organisations and people and teams and things like that. So this is the agent, it's beyond intellect, it's outside of intellect and processing. Okay, so we've got the

Joanne Lockwood: multi state of mindsets. We've got, as you say, we've got the, the self aware looking down on you, able to influence the world around and direct you in different directions. You've got the heavily engaged in autonomous mode where we're just doing what we do. Right. How do we, how can we use those different states to our advantage then? Right.

Bhavesh Naik: It depends on which situation we're talking about. Right. So for example, there's an aspect of this called the situational awareness, which is if I'm just walking down the street, just kind of being aware of my surroundings, that's one kind of awareness. Right. So it gives me safety, it allows me to feel, you know, out and, you know, be aware of things that may be not quite right around me. And then I would make a notice of that and then I would act appropriately. Maybe I change my direction, go someplace else, or if it happens to be a friend who is approaching me, then I would walk up to that person and say hello, things like that. So, so that's one example. But then depending on different situations, this can become a handy tool. So like for when we talked about sports, being in a meeting, being in a sales call, being in negotiations, being talking to a manager, talking to an employee, having a team meeting, having workshops, what we're having right now for this conversation right now, I think that conversations like this become more powerful when we play from this. Because what needs to come out, what needs to happen in this moment, the right words. And we've been in that zone. I'm sure you've been in that zone because you do this a lot, right. Where. Right. Questions just come out of the moment and say, aha, let me ask him this. Right. So. And that's a very effective way of just being. So let me just try and explain the metaphor that's going around in

Joanne Lockwood: my head. So we have, I think you used the word agents earlier. So we've got. And maybe even I'll bring another word in. Sensors. Yeah, we've got these agents and sensors. You know, you talked about your threat analysis sensor and you've, you've got some bit of your brain that's checking on that sensor. Occasionally we've got another one that's checking in on the conversation sensor ahead of us. We're having a communication with somebody or we've got our, our hunger sense or sense of direction. So we've got, our brain is going around all these different inputs to ourselves and generally we're not aware of them. But what you're saying is we're trying to become more aware. Exactly. Of these specific interactions we're having with the world and not just treating them as in the flow, we're being aware rather than just being in the flow. Yes,

Bhavesh Naik: yeah, yeah, right. There is this term called neuro linguistic programming. I'm sure you've heard that term, right? Neuro linguistic nlp. Yeah, I have a bit of a take on that, right? An interpretation of that. I like that term. And it means certain things to certain people, right? There are practitioners of nlp, but if you break down that term, neuro linguistic programming, right? So neuro is neural network, right? We are receiving bits and bytes of information right into this, into this instrument, right? And we happen to have five senses, right? So from the external sources and then the linguistics. So we call it. The linguistic part is the labels. So basically language is series of labels. So we have thoughts, conceptualization and we have labels and ideas and those are connected together, right? Words, sentences, paragraphs. So with those we attach meaning to what's happening. So all these inputs coming in, because the input coming in is just bits and bytes of information. We're using computer terminology, right? So by the way, BFM aside, computer was actually made after people looked at the human body. So computer is the replica or a copy of what humans can do, right? But now we live in computers, you know, we live in this age where we're so surrounded by them that we look at them as a way to look at ourselves. So anyway, bits and bytes of information, linguistic, right? So language, so that gives it meaning. So if there is a loud sound coming from that corner over there right now, all of a sudden I would basically look at that because there is some circuitry here that attached a meaning to that, right? That there's a thread there. And I looked up, right? So that is the linguistic portion of that. And programming is. I react like that in that fraction of a second because I'm programmed to do it. So that's the neuro linguistic programming. So that's one way of looking at it. I happen to. So this self awareness, I happen to see that self awareness in seven dimensions. We talked about in the introduction. We talked about being human right now. So one question that often comes up is what does it mean to be human? And we have basically said for ages that being human means being rational. This is how we are different from the animals. We are rational people. Animals don't have that rational capacity. And that's true. Chimpanzees and some of the other things that other animals, they do. There is some truth to that. But what I Like to say is that, and I think this has been talked about before where it's the awareness, the fact that we are aware of this person, me being me, us being able to look at ourselves as a third party. Our language is like that, you know, some there's a word called I and there is called word called me. I is me, the subjective person, me. This happened to me as like a third party. So that's like an object in a way, right? So what makes us human actually is our self awareness as far as we know.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes, cause and effect. Seeing your reflection, knowing it's you, how you interact in the world, that's kind of all that stuff that separates us from beings that aren't self aware. Yeah,

Bhavesh Naik: exactly. And that's what allows us to even teach children something. I don't know if you, in England you say this rhyme, head and shoulder, knees and toes, right? So a child is growing up and we kind of say well this Right, exactly. So if the child wasn't self awareness self aware, we wouldn't be able to teach them this. Right? Because we're bringing their awareness to themselves. We're teaching them self awareness. They were all very self aware but we kind of bringing the linguistic and rational aspect to that. So being human, self awareness is what makes us human. And I look at that awareness manifesting in seven different ways. So and another important thing, this is also how we are different from AI or artificial intelligence or general AGI. Artificial general intelligence. So and this is important to kind of understand. I watch a lot of YouTube videos by very smart people, but they don't talk about this. They're saying that, okay, you know, computers are becoming very smart and we are programming, redoing this data modelling and you know, we are collecting all of this information and retraining our models to think. They're not really thinking, they're just processing data. Right. The meaning is given by us because we are the ones with the self awareness. So ChatGPT is gonna put some things together, right? But it doesn't understand the meaning of it. It's the reader who's reading it who's gonna bring meaning to it. Right? And that's the definition of being a human. So there's some hope for us. The machines are really not gonna take over. They could, but they're programmed. Only if they're programmed to do it. Isn't the difference

Joanne Lockwood: really? Even though quantum computing, all these computing advances we, we've had over the last 100 years, whatever it may be, the difference really is our brain is Just a better computer at certain tasks. Yeah, AI, quantum computing, whatever. We want to talk about that. The machine computers are really good at ones and zeros and sequencing and those sort of things. What they're not trained on is you say sentience. Our brain is just a more evolved bit of flesh that enables us to be specialists in that, in that area. Which is why we know, yeah, we're not all good at mathematics in our head. But a computer is so different things. So could AI machine based computers eventually develop matrices like our brains? What's to stop them?

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah, that's a good question. So if I go back a little bit. So have you ever had dealt with. There is a problem that you're trying to work out in your head, right. And you can't figure it out and you went for a walk and you engaged doing something else or you were just walking or doing something else and all of a sudden the solution drops in your head. Has that ever happened? Oh, it happens all the time.

Joanne Lockwood: I trust my brain to do that. Sometimes I will deliberately. If I can't find something, I need to solve something. I know if I put it on a shelf in my head, I'll wake up one day or something will happen. I go, ah, got it, there it is. And I don't sweat it. So I know I trust my brain to solve that equation at some point. If I leave it on the, on the back burner. Yeah.

Bhavesh Naik: So I want to go back and preface something. Everything that I propose is for examination. So no belief system here, Right. So I would highly encourage people to know, listeners to take what I'm saying for checking. Don't, don't buy what I'm saying as a belief system or a dogma. Right. This guy's saying it, so it must be true. Don't do that. So with that I would say that the brain. Right. So then this goes into some pretty fundamental existential questions. Right. If the brain is wired that way to get these answers, who did it? Right. This is a very fundamental question and Right. We don't have the answer to that. I'm an evolutionist,

Joanne Lockwood: so I guess as an evolutionist, a Darwinist, I would say it evolved in that way.

Bhavesh Naik: So that is a creationist theory. Creationist theory is, and I'm not opposing the theory within certain contexts. That is a, that, that, that is true. And at the same time you always ask this question, the, the origin question, which is, okay, if there was an evolution, where did it begin? At someone's cell. It's Big bang, of course. So Then you say, well, okay, what was there before the Big Bang? Well, there was nothing before the Big Bang. So if there was nothing before the Big Bang, how did everything come from nothing? How does that make sense? How can everything come from nothing? So those are the questions that we go into, right? Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: And if there is a higher being, what came before that?

Bhavesh Naik: Exactly right. The whole infinity is such a almost

Joanne Lockwood: impossible concept for humans to imagine or rationalise because we want there to be a bound on something. And infinity doesn't give us the ability to process what's beyond because there is no beyond.

Bhavesh Naik: That's true. If time is true, time is infinite and space is infinite,

Joanne Lockwood: then everything is possible. Yeah. Yes.

Bhavesh Naik: Now, what I would say is that infinity and no infinity, or the opposite of infinity, whatever that may be, finite. Those are finite, right. Those are concepts of the mind. Right. In the original word for zero was. Was actually shunya, which was in Indian philosophy, it was considered both infinity and zero in one, if that makes any sense. So. And I don't know if you're going off track here, so. But we're on the. On the topic, so let's kind of follow this, right? There's a song that I used to sing to my kid, you know, Three blue pigeons sitting on a wall, right. I don't know if you heard that. Three blue pigeons sitting on a wall. And then one fleas flows up, one flies away. How many are left? Two blue pigeons sitting on a wall. That flies away. Right? One is there that flies away. How many are left? No blue pigeons, I guess. No blue pigeons sitting on a wall. Right. So there's zero blue pigeons sitting on a wall. But what is left when you take away the pigeons with the idea of a pigeon? Just a wall, everything is left, everything is left. So that's infinity, right? Everything is infinity and zero is. So when we talk about these concepts, they are very contextual. So something that is kind of very difficult to wrap our heads around for a lot of us, if you haven't really spent time doing this kind of thinking, is this idea that the world goes away when you go to sleep. Right. Where did the world go when we enter sleep? So our belief system is that it carries on. We

Joanne Lockwood: just weren't aware of it. That's my belief system. So there's no guarantee that it

Bhavesh Naik: does, though. And thank you for that. Having that little. That doubt. Right? So the world comes into existence when this person wakes up. That person wakes up for that person. Right? So the idea there is. That there is. I'm not proposing Another model, Although I think there is something in my mind there's another model outside of the linear thinking on creationist Darwin. All of those things are good. They're wonderful things. Right. And so the other thing that happens is that when we talk about these kinds of things, people we don't have, we haven't thought about this much. So what we do is we automatically go into the opposite. If it's not a creationist Darwinist theory or if it's. If I don't believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, then I must believe in seven day creation theory. And we have a very strong reaction to that. Right. Or some other aspect. Or I have to be spiritual. If I, I think it's more nuanced

Joanne Lockwood: than having, having to believe in a seven day creation theory. I think there's. Yeah, it can be intelligent design. There can be other things that create. Doesn't have to be a, it doesn't have to be a God definition figure. It could be a higher intelligence or a. Yeah. A matrix model, if you like, where there's a. Could be. That's a wonderful model. Simulations and Exactly. Other things.

Bhavesh Naik: Computer game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so the reason why I kind of get into this is because the awareness, right. So when we have that aha moment. So the word gnosis, G N O S I s and the word knowledge comes from the word G N O S I s gnosis and the original meaning of the word is sharing insight into the nature of things. So you know, we have all this conditioning that we have and we have an aha moment. And once we have an aha moment about that, whatever that is, then our mind doesn't go back to the way it was before and we have expanded our understanding. Right? So then that's one way to define knowledge. So knowledge can be collection of data, right? Rewiring for our brain the physicality of brain collection of data. But learning and knowledge can also be just blowing up of our existing body of knowledge and having an insight. And that's where our mind opens up. So this is how we can go beyond our filtering and biases and things like that. And this is the real growth, right? Because you know, growth doesn't happen by just collection of data from different people, different opinion, different perspectives. Right. It happens when we have our own insight into things and we say aha. Now that doesn't mean that it's an original thought. It doesn't mean that no one else has taught that thought before. But to me, in that moment, that's my original thought. And this is where the growth is, right? This is where what I call true learning is. And to me this is important because this is how transformation in people happens. If I want to work with someone and I want to help them get better in some way, shape or form, and if they are willing, then this is the faculty that helps us get there or it helps us help that person get there. So when you're

Joanne Lockwood: working with teams in a workplace, is this a one to one or is this a group session? Because I would imagine that everyone's interpretation of what you've been saying, they'll have their own metaphor, their own sense of what that means.

Bhavesh Naik: And that's wonderful. How do we align people and try and get some

Joanne Lockwood: commonality of. That's a great point of purpose. Yeah.

Bhavesh Naik: So we say, so diversity, right? We talk about. Your podcast talks about inclusion and diversity, right? And equity. So there's two contradictory ideas there, right? There's diversity, but then we have to come together and work. So we have to find some common ground, which is what you're asking, right? So what's that common ground? Well, the common ground is very easy with risk factor is what? We are all humans, you're all human beings, right? So that's our common ground. And then the question comes, well, how do you define a human being? And that's all that conversation that we have, right? We just, we just had thus far. So to answer your question to me, when you, a team, an organisation, whether you are five people, two people team, or you 100 people or thousand people, or a hundred thousand people or the entire civilization, right? The foundation is to me so. Well, first of all, we are all human beings. So I think we all agree on that. To me, I try to access this awareness, which is a common ground. To me, that's a common ground. So that can be a dogma, that cannot be something that. I'm not expecting Joanne to understand that or accept that. But we explore that. But we start with this idea that we're both human beings. So that's the commonality. Now within that there is the diversity. So the diversity. The funny thing is that there are 7 billion people on this planet. Not two of us even look alike, right? So we are truly, each one of us is a truly unique individual. Now add to that our psychological conditioning, our upbringing, our belief systems, our talent. So even if you have two twin brothers or sisters, you know you're going to have differences, right? So they're two entirely different people. So the, the challenge is to find the Common ground. And to me that is awareness. And we can say, okay, fine, it's human beings, so we all human beings, and then we need to at the same time celebrate the, the uniqueness that we bring to the table. So awareness. And then what comes out of that awareness is the celebration. That's how I look at it, right? So awareness is the ground, it doesn't change. That is the oneness that we all share, we all are aware. So there's consciousness there, there's consciousness here, that's what we share. But the manifestation of that, the expression of that awareness is so entirely unique to each individual. And this is why I believe that perspective is our superpower. Our self awareness and pursuit to the way we express and way we play out in this planet is our superpower. So now when we bring it to the teams, I think the basic element is of course, the person, that's the node. So if you were looking at Eiffel Tower, we talk about organisational structures, right, all the time, right? So if you're looking at it as a static structure, a bridge or an Eiffel Tower, you're going to have the nodes, right? And then between those nodes there is these big beams, like iron things, right, that they connect them. So those are the relationships. So if an organisational structure is a structure like that, then you're going to have people and the relationship between those people. So how we talk to each other, how we converse with each other, how we work with each other. So the strength of that relationship is the strength of the organisation. So the strength of the people in organisation is the. Is how strong, how functional, how performant you are, how productive that organisation could be. That's. It's kind of an abstract thing, but, you know, I think, I don't know if that answers the question, but. So that's where it comes together, relationships, basically. Yeah, I grasp the concept. You know, we think about.

Joanne Lockwood: You talk about self awareness and, you know, looking at yourself from above and you can then look at the impact you're having. You know, if you can see what's going on around you, you see all the actors and all the people taking part, you can perceive the impact you're having, positive or negative. You can start to address your biases, you can start to address. Exactly. You can start to contextualise the environment you're in. Whereas if you're just looking in the moment, you're blinkered, you're very shut down, exactly in a reactive mode, then you're going to be less, as you say, self aware. Of what's going on around you. Right, exactly. It's how do you move from the awareness to action? Do you make that leap? First leap is stepping out of yourself. The next leap is being aware and then the next leap is how to re. Engage control. Yes. And how does one do that?

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah, that's going to be contextual. So for example, so if you look at the context, there is, okay, what is it we're trying to achieve? So there is a vision first. Right. And why do we want to achieve that? So there's a why. So there's a purpose, there's a vision and there's purpose. Right. And once we have those in mind, then we can say, well, how do we get there? Right, this is where we want to go, this is why we want to get there. This is my why is to why I want to get there. And then we say, well, what are some of the things that I need to do to get there? What are some of the actions that I need to take? What, how do we execute to get there? And that's where our steps and

Joanne Lockwood: steps here, sort of how do we get to five, how do we get to six, how do we get to 10? Exactly. Yeah. Looking at the big picture rather than the ground in front of us. Yeah. And

Bhavesh Naik: the big picture could be. So it depends on how big an organisation is. For example, let's say you're running a hundred people organisation, you're a business and you have a CEO or a founder and there's 100 people working within their organisation and they have the reporting structure. So then we had to look at that. So how does awareness come about? Or how does it become an agent to doing abc X, Y, Z. So the first question is, do they even want to be aware or not? It's a very basic question. So if now I work with, always work with, start with the leadership out and I don't like to say top down, but that's another way of saying it. I like to look at this one person. Even if there is a multiple people, team, executive team, there's one person who is in a leadership position, who is the ripple effect, who's the centre of this ripple effect? Right, that person. And I work with that person in executive coaching. So that's one of the ways that I start and that's actually almost always the way. But why would you want to do that? If the why isn't there if everything is working fine, if the, if. If the revenues are where they want it to be, where, if, if they're the gross margins are where they want it to be. If their people are productive and happy and wonderful, they're showing up every day, they don't complain, then you don't need to talk about any of this, right? Just keep doing what you're doing. But what if your revenues aren't where they need to be? Right? Your productivity is where you need to be, right? Your people are. It's like a rolling door, right? They're not staying, there's no retention, there's on and on and on, right? There's lots of problems that organisation can. And this is a healthy organisation, every organisation has problems. So if you want to fix that problem, right, that's when we begin to talk about, well, what are some of the ways that we can. We can do this? Now, what happens typically is that most people will go to. I call it the business philosophy. The business philosophy that has been handed down generation to generation to generation. And this business philosophy is where they go to. They don't find their answers there. And we are actually sort of in this loop right now. I call it the dependency epidemic. Our organisations are deeply dysfunctional today. Our engagement. Gallup has done studies where they say that most people are. Only 33% of the people in organisation are engaged to their work, right? The other 60. So if you have six people team, only two people are engaged, the other four are doing one is actually destroying the work of the others. And I think the remaining three are just there doing the minimum required. And if you manage a team of six people, you'll kind of get this. And this is normally how you play, right? So the question is, why? So am I running a functional organisation or am I running a dysfunctional organisation? If you're running a dysfunctional organisation, are the popular press management giving you those answers? If you are getting your answers there, then perfectly fine, keep doing it. If not, then you need to kind of open up the mind and say, well, let me think about something else. And this is where someone like Bhavesh comes in and say, well, hey, look at it this way, right? That's when they will be open to listening to someone like me. Because my proposition is that we are still using the management practises and philosophies that were developed in the industrial age, which was about 250 years ago, codified in that time, scientific management theories. But we really saw, we haven't really evolved the way we manage people, the way we build organisation, the way we lead people at all. We put man on the moon. You know, this used to Be a giant supercomputer just 50 years ago, right? But we hold that in the palm of our hands. But we have done absolutely no. Well, there's some. So industrial age revolution that was an attempt on our part to say, okay, let's make our people productive, super productive. And we said, well, how do we do this? And there have been studies done. It's a guy called Frederick Taylor, he comes along and he says, well, he was a machinist and we were fascinated by machines. So he saw the businesses as machines and people as machine parts. So the entire philosophy of managing people was looked on as if people are machines. And this is a flaw. We still look at it, our people as machines. This is why we love AI even more. I've been talking about this for 20 years. This message is even more relevant today because we love AI for this reason. Because we don't know how to manage people. We don't know how to deal with people. We don't know how to deal with differences. We don't know how to deal with people who have passion, who have talent, who have their opinions, right, who have wisdom, who have aspirations, who have goals in life. We don't like that, we don't know what to do with it. So the existing management philosophies don't give us tools to it. And this is not their fault, this is not the fault of the leader. So the result is that I call it dependency epidemic. We have created deeply dependent organisations. So if the leader goes away for three months or six months, the organisation begins to fall apart. So just think about a business, right? If someone is running, I'm sure you work with business people, right? Where you have somebody's running a 200 people firm, the business owner says, I'm going to take a sabbatical, I'm going to go away for six months. When she or he or they come back, the organisation is gone, right? Most of the time, unless they've set up some structures and things like that. So then going back to your question, how does self awareness come into play in this? That's a very important question. So once they're open to looking at this, then we can talk about how to bring in the human element which is missing in our business. So truly finding all the conversations that we've had until to this point, looking at a human being as a human being, not as a machine. When we do that, we unlock the true potential of our people. We're already paying for it. We salaries are the highest on most people's P and L statements, but we are only getting 33% from that. So if I learn how to do this. Well, this goes into all of the things that's happening today, you know, remote work and bring them back. Cancelling the DEI initiatives and stuff like. Because we don't know how to deal with human beings as human beings. So did I go on a rant. As you're talking now? I'm thinking,

Joanne Lockwood: if you think about a diverse world we live in, people have vastly different starting points on the journey you're talking about and you throw into the mix someone who's neurodivergent. I can imagine there's a huge challenge in trying to get this alignment. But given the starting point, and must be a real challenge to you to work with organisations, you may well be able to get a number of people thinking in this way. But the challenge must be the outliers who really struggle with the concept. Yes. And the outliers. Actually the

Bhavesh Naik: outliers are probably the majority I work with. Not, not everybody is open to this message. And that's true. At least today. It might be different 10 years from now or 20 years from now. It's the only way that they can be open to it is if I bring them results. And the results have to be there, otherwise commitment won't be there. Right. Or so for me to sell this quote, unquote, sell this to the organisations, I need to bring the results and sometimes fairly immediate results. And then when we're talking, and I'm not saying a week or month or something like that, three months, six months, there's some results and then they get a little bit sold and then we can do a long term. Ultimately this is a long term commitment type of thing. Right. It's a long term, one year, two year, something like that. But it can, it can happen. The

Joanne Lockwood: other thing that's occurring to me as you're talking is we almost need to be able to step out not just of ourselves, but, but also ourselves as part of a team or ourselves as part of a business. I'm going to look at how all my team is performing.

Bhavesh Naik: Exactly. And how my business is performing. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: it's that shifting your focus from self to team to division to organisation and being self aware of all those layers as well. Absolutely. Challenge. Absolutely. Well, the measurements that we

Bhavesh Naik: use, I mean we actually do it, you know, we call it objectification. Right. Object objectives of KPR and all those things that brings an element of awareness. It's a very narrow view of that awareness, but it does so. But what this requires is more of a open awareness on the part of the leadership. It starts there. If they are, if they don't get bought into this, then it absolutely doesn't work. Right? So it's a transformation that starts from the top down or inside out. If the person who is the leader, who is in the centre of the organisation and if you look at it as like a ripple effect, so it has to work from the leadership team, they have to commit to it, they have to be, to, to be open to this idea and then willing to give it a try. So then you know, in those experiments, you know, in those pilots, you kind of say, well these are the things that we're going to shoot for, you know, what are you looking for? Why are we doing this? And they'll find a three month thing where you can see tangible results. Now the tangible results may be measurable, but sometimes they're not. Now anything can, can be measured, right? But sometimes it's, it's an intuitive feeling. Most leaders are actually intuitive, right? And they'll know that, okay, my team is functioning better right now. The problem is when you have a hierarchy where you have a vice president who is reporting to a president and CEO and he needs to prove to their superiors that whatever it is that you're taking on is working and then they have to prove it to someone. But if you're working, I work with basically folks who are self contained entities where there is a definitive person who is at the hell, right. And this person is, doesn't have report to anyone except their family, you know, so they, they are. So that's, that's where I come in. And those, that is where my bread and butter is because organisations, it can happen. I work with organisations and within the pockets. So within organisations there is sometimes someone who is in charge of P and L within the large organisation and they have that self contained team. I've done some work with them, but they are always accountable to someone. So. But even in those cases anything can be measured. Productivity can be measured, even happiness can be measured. So. But you just have to find out what those measurement matrix are. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I'm with you on most of this. I'm just trying to think about, I'm kind of a, I'm definitely a possibilist to start. Yeah, anything's possible. And then I move into implementation and all the risk analysis and resistance and objection handling. So one outlier is going to, I'm not saying it would disrupt the whole process, but it would make the communication channels between team members and the business more tricky, wouldn't it?

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah. Where people aren't wholly bought into this. It really has got to.

Joanne Lockwood: You got to embrace this as a team. Yeah, yeah. Now, so. So

Bhavesh Naik: this is where it becomes important to make sure that it's not seen as some kind of like cultism thingy that's come being forced down from the top, right. They have to buy into this. So for that there is a very simple way. You don't have to talk about any of these things. There are sometimes when I would sit down with someone who is, who's a leader and I would say do this and there, there a. There's a process that begins with one on one. So if you're a leader, say you have a hundred people, company, you have five people who are reporting to you, who is the executive team. All right? And you want to kind of give this a shot. All I would ask you to do is, is have a one on one conversation with each one of these people and don't talk about any of this stuff that we talked about because it made this scare them away, right? But ask them some three or four, very simple question, right? And what. I don't know how much time we have right now, but I would ask them to take a sheet of paper like that and, and write down at the top of my job, right, My job here with this organisation, and ask the first question, why? Right? Halfway down that sheet of paper is what? On the back of the sheet you write how and how, right? So if I'm a manager or you're a manager, you would sit down with this person and say, well, why is this job important to you? So this becomes part of the management process. It can also become part of the recruitment process. These are powerful questions to ask, right? Why work here? So they'll come up with 1, 2, 3 things. What's your vision working here? Right? Fast forward 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the road. Where do you see yourself in context of working here? And then on the flip side, how do we get there? So this process, we can do another podcast just on this, but this process brings together everything that we've talked about and it's a simple enough process. So the idea there is that when they say why, when they answer the question, why is it, why am I working here? They are basically giving you the reason that that's their engagement, right? Organisations don't have this conversation. Why are you here? We've done incredible volume of data analysis and things like that, and we do job performance and stuff like that. But they don't ask these basic questions, why this job? Why are you here? And this question needs to be visited again and again and again. Not because, like a challenge or anything like that, but share with me why it's important for you to work here so that I understand you. There are some guidelines. Now, you don't misuse this, right? But there is. So it's. You know, we talked about this, right? The structure. The structure is relationship between two people. This is how it happens, right? You ask the why question, why you're here, and then what's the vision? There needs to be some. Some understanding, some empathy. All of these things come into play, right? Understanding the other person, not jumping and telling them why they need to be there, right? You're listening and you're asking the question, why are you here? And, and, and they're telling you. You listen and you write it down. You let have them write it down, right? Whatever the cause, you can't argue with their why, right? So, and then they, they tell you what is their vision of being there? And they say, well, I want to be. I want to be making $150,000 a year two years down the road. Now, that vision you need to basically agree on. If someone is saying, well, I'm going to be making $300,000, and you might say, well, this job is not going to get you there. It'll get you to maybe $200,000. So it's this kind of a conversation that needs to happen between the boss and the. And the employee to have that bond. And then the idea is that the manager, the supervisor, the leader becomes a resource to that person, right? At one level. And then. So it's like, I think you mentioned, it's almost like being a coach, right? You are in a coaching relationship just as well, as much as you are also a leader or manager who's responsible for this person to do what they need to do. But yeah, you become a resource, you become a mentor, you'll become all of those things or some of those things, but that's it. So the understanding and empathy and really getting to know someone and what makes them tick and also being very ethical about it, because you can't be talking about 12 all these people and you can't play politics based on what someone tells you, because if you do that, then that breaks the trust, right? And then they won't open up or they'll give you the wrong answer. They'll give you the answers that you want to hear. Yeah, but, but so my point is that this comes down to nuts and bolts. And I've done presentations on how this little process ties into a lot of the things that we talked about. Right. Because there is a correlationship. So, you know, there, there's intricacies of how asking these simple questions actually taps into a lot of the things that we talked about and being aware here. Right. So you bring awareness to. That's always a play. That's always in play. Right. You are. You are being aware of the conversation. When you're aware, you will notice things in people that you normally would not notice if you weren't aware.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You'll be able to understand them better. Yeah, I mean, that's a critical part. When I'm trying to. I mean, my brain's going back to things like emotional intelligence. And the whole point of self awareness and self management, self regulation, is to be more aware of your surroundings as well, and the cues you're picking up from people. Be aware of your breathing, your biases, whatever it may be. Right, right. And so once you become aware of self, you become more tuned in and aware of others. So then you could regulate and adjust and be more person centric, aren't you? That's great point. Yeah,

Bhavesh Naik: excellent point. Exactly. So when you. The degree to which we are self awareness is a degree to which we are able to help others get in touch with their own self awareness. And there is this connection, this understanding, deep understanding that. That we normally don't see in business. Relationships because leadership is sort of social influence

Joanne Lockwood: and being aware of self and how you're interacting with somebody else gives you, I was gonna say great power, great insight into having productive conversations, productive outcomes and persuasion, whatever it may be, by creating that alignment. And that starts with self awareness and aware of others, isn't it? Exactly. Constantly. Course correct. So you're not crashing into each other. Exactly. Yes.

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Great. That's a great point. Yeah, I think I get

Joanne Lockwood: it. Good. All right, thank you. Yeah, yeah. So I've been trying to play with everything you're saying and trying to contextualise it into my metaphors and view of the world. And I think. I think I'm getting what you're saying here. And it's trying to create that alignment and that interfacing with other people, starting with who are we? Right. And then who are you?

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah. And how do we want to communicate and how do we become more effective? All right. Yes. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for playing with me on that. So because these are. These are different things that people that, to Talk about in, in a business conversation that most people are, are accustomed to. So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I

Joanne Lockwood: talk to a lot of people about emotional intelligence and to many people it's a, a dark art just talking about it and. Yeah. Even getting people to be accountable for their, for their Persona, it's like. That's right. I'm just me. I don't care, I don't care what you think of me. I'm just me. Well, actually if you start caring about what, what people think of you, it's not, not necessarily to worry about judgement or worry about the negative side, but just aware. Because if you, if you think you're A and people think you're B. Yeah. Then you need to shift perspectives. Exactly. If no matter how I'm thinking, you believe I'm like this. Okay, hang on a minute. Why is there a disconnect between who I think I am and who you think I am? Right. Yeah. And if there's a misalignment there, you have the power of change, don't you? Exactly. Yes. Yeah, you do. And I want to throw

Bhavesh Naik: out another term. Emotional intelligence is a good term and there's a very specific definition of what that means. I like the term emotional awareness because it's a very simple term. It's self explanatory. It's awareness of how you're feeling. So one of the awareness. So the seven dimensions of awareness is. One of those seven dimensions is awareness of how I'm feeling in this moment. So that's a very powerful thing to be. Right. So and emotional intelligence to me is. It implies, it may not be meant that way, but sometimes it interpreted as using intellect to overpower the emotion and that's somehow that context. And that's not good because that is a suppression of emotion. Suppression of emotion is not healthy. So I like the term emotional awareness in the sense that. Okay, what am I feeling this morning in, in this, in this moment. So right now we're having this conversation. So I am in a nice optimistic, happy state right now because I enjoy having this kinds of conversation. Right. And so that's my feeling right now. Now I may be sitting down, having a cup of coffee and I may be tired a little bit. Moment to moment, being aware of how I'm feeling. That brings us a tremendous amount of power to, to own that feeling, number one. And then if there's something needs to be done about that, then we can do that. Yeah. So I think I like that differentiation and I see what

Joanne Lockwood: you're saying about. Because I always get worried that if you're. We talk about, you know, the four pillars, if you like, of emotional intelligence.

Bhavesh Naik: Yeah. The self awareness and the self regulation. It's almost, as you say,

Joanne Lockwood: it's almost trying to override. Right. Your natural flow state. Exactly. Force yourself into a different zone. Yes. Rather than just being hyper aware and in that moment. Yes. And realising you're maybe standing in the wrong place. Yeah. I think also if you. If you recognise that humans store a lot of memories with their emotions and how they're feeling, you're going to regress back in time to a place where you were happy. Right. Can. Can change your whole Persona, can't it? Bringing yourself in that. In that conscious state. Yeah.

Bhavesh Naik: One example I'd like to give is, you know, imagine Martin Luther, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Speech. You know, I have a dream. If he was being emotionally intelligent, he would kind of regulate those emotions and he'll say, I have a dream. Right. He'll say, I kind of have this dream, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to attain it or not. You know, who knows? Right. That's being emotionally intelligent. Right. But there is no doubt, there is no hesitation, there is no. That's emotional awareness. Right. So emotions are very powerful and they have a purpose. There is a reason for those emotions. And some of these emotions are wonderful because it brings us together, it allows us to do things that we have never done before. And so one of the things that we've done with some conversation we had about viewing people as machine parts is that we don't like people emoting in the workplace. Right. Because we don't know what to do with it. All right, so this is why we love emotional intelligence so much, because it sometimes it can be used as a way to tell people, hey, you know, be emotionally intelligent, don't let it all hang out. Right. Oh, and I'm starting to see that term in job descriptions. You know, you require emotional intelligence to work here and then that can be taken in so many different ways. We are so dysfunctional and we are so toxic that you'll need to be emotionally intelligent to work here, otherwise you'll fall apart. So. So. But that's my cynical take on. I suppose I would interpret

Joanne Lockwood: it as, you want people to be accountable. Yes, that's true. For their impact, accountable for their intent that goes bad. I mean, that's how I would. That's true. I wake up believing I'm doing a good job. I believe I'm a good person, but someone else has a Different belief. So the impact I've had has been negative. I just have to be accountable for that. Either I reflect and go, actually, you're right. Or yeah, I reflect and go. Now I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable with what I did and I'll stand by that. So I think some of it is just having a, having a. You go back to what, the language you use. Self awareness, self reflection and just that appreciation of self, whether that's the helicopter view. Right. How do I come across? Am I a dick or am I a nice person?

Bhavesh Naik: Right. I want to be a nice person. Right. If I'm coming as a dick. Yeah. I got the power to change, haven't I? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So as soon as you're aware, you have the power. Exactly. Exactly what you said. Yeah. You know, once you're aware, then you have the power. But if I'm suppressing it, then I'm suppressing it and then I'm denying that I even have that feeling. And then if you don't accept that there is an issue, then you won't fix it. So then you'll continue to behave in that way.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And you have the choice to change in the future. Exactly right. If someone points out to the, to you the fact that that remark was racist. That remark was whatever. Yeah. And you go, I don't care. Well, that's your choice. Yeah. You have the choice to change. Telling someone to change is not what you're trying to do. You're trying to. You're trying to create a gravitational attraction to change, being positive, aren't you? So. Right. Show, don't tell. Yeah, yeah. And,

Bhavesh Naik: yeah. And there are patterns that we play out. There are certain belief patterns that come to the surface in awareness. So for example, if I have certain views about certain race of people or certain shape of people and they are hidden, there is nothing wrong. We all have flaws, Right. We might have some experience with a parental figure who was short and that person wasn't nice to me. So then I have may have been holding some grievances about people for short. Right. So then I may react to them in a certain way. But if I'm aware of, of my patterns, my emotions, my thoughts while I'm interacting with people, then I would over time begin to see that, that, hey, there is a pattern. You know, I don't like short people. Right. So then if nothing else, you will be able to. Course correct. And you will be able to say, well, okay, you know, I need to be aware of the fact that I have this issue so, you know, may play out because these things are. As soon. As long as these things are subconscious, we have no power. Exactly what you said. But once they come into our awareness, then we have the power to change our behaviour and ultimately even change that. Pat, that. That takes some work sometimes, but. Yeah, but we can at least change our behaviour.

Joanne Lockwood: This has been an absolutely fascinating conversation and you're right, we could dive even deeper into this and spend many, many more hours going into this. And I've really enjoyed it. So how can people get hold of you, you know, if they want to find out more? Sure. The best way

Bhavesh Naik: to get hold of me is my website, which is AWA Y R E and I spell it out because the pronunciation of that name is actually aware. But it's spelled with a Y, right? A W A Y R E dot com. The best thing that I ask folks to do is go to the top right and click the Start here button. And that gives you some assessments and some. Just all free stuff that allow you. That allow you to take some answer, ask some question or answer some questions and it gives you some. Some reports and things like that. So. Yes, and then you can. From there you can get my email, my LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn a lot. Yeah, I've been on your website before

Joanne Lockwood: and there's quite a lot of video content on there as well, isn't there? And that's true. Interviews you've done and yeah, there's some good stuff on there. So not just, yeah, the interactive stuff, but yeah, you can consume more of your ideas on the videos and things. Yes, I've

Bhavesh Naik: done some videos on some of the things that we're talking about today. I also have a podcast which is called the Business Philosopher with the new podcast and on that podcast I have people who have built successful organisations and some of the leaders we talked about today, they fit in that category. Really great people that I've interviewed, including Joanne. Little old me. Yeah, I was a guest a

Joanne Lockwood: couple of weeks ago. You were a guest a couple of weeks ago. So,

Bhavesh Naik: yeah, so we have had some great conversations on that. Encourage you to check it out. The podcast. Yeah, excellent. Well, I'll put all those details

Joanne Lockwood: in the show notes, so I'm sure people will get in contact with you and I'll make sure your LinkedIn profile's there because as you say, it's a place you hang out a lot. So do I. So, yeah, no doubt we'll bump into each other again there very soon. Sure, sounds great. Thank you. So much.

Bhavesh Naik: Thanks. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Enjoyed and this was a great conversation.

Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. Enjoyed it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing, subscribe into Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.