--- title: "Unlocking Neurodivergent Potential" episode: 163 date: 2025-06-19 guest: "Alexandra Bellitter" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/163-unlocking-neurodivergent-potential audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-163/audio.mp3 --- # Unlocking Neurodivergent Potential Joanne Lockwood is joined by Alexandra Bellitter from Shimmer ADHD Coaching to explore what neuro-inclusive coaching looks like in practice, and why traditional coaching approaches can miss the mark for ADHD and other neurodivergent clients. Together they unpack how small shifts in structure and communication can reduce overwhelm and make support feel genuinely person-centred. Alexandra shares examples such as narrowing overly broad questions, agreeing expectations up front, and designing accountability and note-taking approaches that work with how someone’s brain processes information. The conversation also moves into the workplace: what challenges can show up around deadlines, memory, time estimation, prioritisation and interruptions, and how managers can address performance needs without “othering” someone or forcing disclosure. They discuss psychological safety, stigma, and practical ways to request adjustments by describing needs and outcomes rather than diagnoses. Closing out, Alexandra outlines the elements of ADHD coaching—goal-focused coaching, psychoeducation, and executive function skill building—centred on collaboration, experimentation, and empowerment rather than “fixing” people. The key message is that thriving often comes from finding systems that fit, not forcing conformity. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introductions and Welcome - 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Bold Conversations Journey - 03:45 — Neuro-Inclusive Coaching Strategies - 06:28 — Navigating Neurodiversity Support Systems - 11:23 — Chronic Procrastination and Perfectionism - 13:28 — Adapted to Change; Last-Minute Efficiency - 15:58 — Navigating Workplace Self-Advocacy - 22:01 — Rethinking Workplace Behaviour Expectations - 23:06 — Understanding Neurodivergence: Benefits and Perceptions - 27:57 — Self-Employed Mindset Independence - 28:52 — Neurodivergence and Rigid Expectations - 32:04 — Embracing Risk Management Strategies - 35:53 — Exploring Alternatives to Running - 39:59 — Phones: Instant Stimulation Habit - 44:02 — Navigating Communication and Setting Boundaries - 45:45 — Managing Interruptions in Modern Work - 50:49 — Understanding ADHD Through Coaching - 52:16 — Promoting Transparent Workplace Communication - 54:48 — Join the Inclusion Bites Community ## Key takeaways - The limitations of traditional coaching models and how neuro-inclusive coaching tailors approaches to individual needs. - Practical adjustments to communication—such as reframing open-ended questions—to support focus and engagement. - The significance of understanding individual "spiky profiles" rather than relying on stereotypes in neurodiversity. - Common workplace challenges for neurodivergent people, including time management, project estimation, and navigating deadlines. - Techniques for self-advocacy at work, whether disclosing neurodivergence or requesting practical accommodations. - The value of radically transparent communication styles to bridge neurodivergent and neurotypical working relationships. - How habits, technologies, and routines can be optimised to play to neurodivergent strengths, creating sustainable systems for thriving. ## FAQs ### What does “neurodivergent” mean in the context of this episode? Neurodivergent refers to individuals whose brains function differently from what is typically considered ‘neurotypical.’ In this context, it primarily encompasses people with conditions such as ADHD and autism. The episode highlights that neurodivergence is a natural variation in human cognition, not something that necessarily requires fixing, but rather understanding and support. --- ### How is neuro-inclusive coaching different from traditional coaching? Neuro-inclusive coaching intentionally incorporates the unique cognitive styles and challenges of neurodivergent individuals. Rather than expecting clients to adapt to the coach’s preferred style, coaches adapt their approach—using more specific, focused questions, offering clear frameworks, and collaborating on methods that resonate with each person’s strengths and lived experience. --- ### What practical adjustments can make coaching sessions more neuro-inclusive? Instead of broad or open-ended questions like “How have things been since our last session?”, a neuro-inclusive approach favours specific, targeted queries such as, “What progress have you made on the goal we discussed last time?” This narrows the cognitive load and helps the client focus, enabling more meaningful and effective engagement from the outset. --- ### Which workplace challenges do neurodivergent people commonly face? Common difficulties include: Managing deadlines, particularly when tasks lack intrinsic engagement. Organising and tracking complex projects over time. Handling time management, punctuality, and meeting expectations. Retaining information from lengthy discussions or meetings. Overcommitting in an attempt to “compensate” for delays or perceived inadequacies. --- ### How can self-advocacy look for a neurodivergent employee? Self-advocacy does not always require disclosing a diagnosis. Individuals can describe the specific support or adjustments they need (e.g., receiving agendas in advance, using AI note-takers, breaking large tasks into manageable steps) as part of normal workflow discussions. This focuses the conversation on practical outcomes rather than labels. --- ### Is there still a stigma around neurodivergence in the workplace? While awareness is improving, stigma persists, particularly in workplaces lacking visible leadership openness or established employee resource groups. Culture plays a significant role; psychological safety, openness, and normalisation of different working styles all help reduce stigma. --- ## Transcript Alexandra Bellitter: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites Billard. And Today is episode 163 with the title Unlocking Neurodivergent Potential. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Alex Bellitter. Alex is the operations manager and lead at Shimmer ADHD Coaching, pioneering neuro inclusive coaching approaches to support the ADHD community in achieving their goals. And when I asked Alex to describe her superpower, she said it is a lifelong love of learning and a commitment to advancing neuro inclusive coaching. Hello, Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Alexandra Bellitter: Very excited to be here. Yeah, pleasure. We were chatting away just now Joanne Lockwood: and you're joined with you at your end in Texas somewhere by a couple of dogs. Is that right? You've got your dogs with you? Yes, I Alexandra Bellitter: do. I got Freddie and Bella right with me. They're ready to chime in at any moment. Yeah. So. Well, we're looking forward to. If they want to join in, Joanne Lockwood: if they. If they got something to add on the topic of Neuro inclusive coaching, we can involve them. So. Yeah, absolutely. So, Texas. Whereabouts in Texas? I am located in Dallas. It is Dallas. Alexandra Bellitter: I always feel bad during the winter, saying I'm complaining about the cold when I'm very much in warm weather. But it's still pretty chilly here. Joanne Lockwood: So what's chilly for Dallas, is it. Where are we? 32 Fahrenheit, 0 Centigrade, UK. So where are we in the 60s or 70s? It does get down into the. Alexandra Bellitter: Usually there's a week where it does snow, which I think is the. You're allowed to say it's cold at that point. If it's snowing outside, it's usually for only a few days out of the year. So right now it's in the the 40s phase, which quite frankly I have a hard time translating into Celsius. Yeah, that's probably low 10, Joanne Lockwood: 10ish degrees Celsius, something like that. Was it 00:32? So it's got to be 10, 10 or 15, something like that. So nippy, but not freezing. Alexandra Bellitter: I'll trust you on that. Yeah, well, I had a Joanne Lockwood: lady on the other day from Atlanta in Georgia and she was saying that had snow forecast there, which is kind of unheard of. So the weather in the States at the moment is all over the place. Very much Alexandra Bellitter: so. This February has had really large swings to very, very hot weather, like 15 degrees over the average to very, very low weather. So it's been a bit unpredictable. Wow. So Joanne Lockwood: your superpower and what you do is all around neuro inclusive, coaching around adhd. So how isn't traditional coaching neuro inclusive? So there's a lot of different Alexandra Bellitter: elements to that, but I think you can kind of summarise it with whether or not it is in the forefront of what you're thinking about when you're working with your members of how am I expecting this member to present? Am I expecting them to adopt my style? Am I really meeting them where they are at? So a couple examples will be just first, starting the coaching session as it's very common to do very wide questions of how have things been since I've last seen you? All of a sudden there's a lot of different factors to be thinking about when you can narrow down the scope, make it a little easier for the person to focus on what's most meaningful for them. So asking about the topic from the last time we spoke, asking about a particular goal that you had set, those are a way that you can already start the energy in the conversation without widening it so far that the person really has to think about all the different variables. And we know that from divergent thinking that can be very common. So even just from the initial start of the session, that's one way you can make it more neuro inclusive. But there's several points actually the entire session that you can be adopting your own practise to make it most impactful for your member. So, yeah, I'm aware that if Joanne Lockwood: you ask an open question such as how are you? Or tell me about yourself, that could be too broad, you might need more narrowing that down to what do you actually want to do? Tell me about yourself. Well, I'm 5 foot 10 inches tall, 160 odd pounds, whatever. Yeah. So we end up going down the Wrong route. So I guess what you're trying to do here is be open but explicit in the response you're looking for. Yeah, Alexandra Bellitter: exactly. So a modification. How are you today? That's a very particular thing to be answering. What am I feeling right now? What encouraged you to sign up for coaching? Tell me about the moment that you hit book a consultation call or the moment that you hit sign up. That's incredibly useful information of we're probably going to start with what you want coaching about or how you're feeling about yourself right now. Usually when someone signs up for coaching, it is a very raw and vulnerable moment of I'm going to choose to have someone in my life to partner with, to reach my goals. I feel like I really need someone by my side, I need someone to collaborate with. They've put a lot of trust in you by hitting that, that first button and it's an incredible moment to talk about, of how did you decide I was the right coach for you? Or how did you decide ADHD coaching was the right one for you? It's a much more meaningful start to the engagement. So what you're doing a lot Joanne Lockwood: of then is helping people who aren't neurotypical, who have ADHD, navigate, if you like, the neurotypical world. Is that base some of the coaching there? Yeah, Alexandra Bellitter: absolutely. So it's not just, how do I fit into a neurotypical world? That might be something that we discuss, what systems and structures help them be most successful? Unfortunately, a lot of workplaces in particular have a neurotypical approach to how they do things and neurodiversity is sort of a side conversation. Neurodivergence in itself might not be addressed in the workplace. And of course, we're not just talking about the workplace, but we might be talking within families. As a parent in higher education, while you're in college, people aren't necessarily talking about the tools and structures and concepts that are gonna help you thrive. It's sort of one of those things that you have to go find for yourself, which can be really disheartening of no one's prioritising what I need in this. I have to go on this journey by myself, so. So what we do is introduce you to different concepts that can help you thrive and it feels more naturally leaning into your strengths. Most of the people I've talked to on this podcast have Joanne Lockwood: been coming from the angle of educating employers, organisations on neuro inclusivity. What we're doing here and talking about today really is how we help an individual Self advocate and navigate the world themselves. Not coming from a how could my organisation help them, but how can they help themselves? That's a really interesting angle. I've never discussed this before. I suppose no two people are the same, are they? We can't create a stereotype of a neurodiverse person. Is this or has that? Not everybody has the same hyper focus or the same attention deficit as another person. So I guess you have to first mission is, I guess, discovering how that person sees the world. So while there, there may be Alexandra Bellitter: common traits of, you know, impulsivity or distractibility, what we're looking at is more of a spiky wheel. When we're thinking about neurodivergence, a lot of people view a linear line of more neurotypical, more neurodivergent. That's not really what we're looking at. We're looking at a spiky wheel where there's different facets of a person. So how they engage socially, their learning styles, how they like to. I guess that's the same thing I was gonna say how they like to communicate, but how they organise their thoughts, those are all different ways that someone may be more or less social. And that's one particular area. So rather than it being categorical, it's very dynamic in how we view a person. So what are the typical challenges that Joanne Lockwood: a neurodivergent person may face in their workplace? What sort of things holding them back? Normally, yeah. So sometimes Alexandra Bellitter: it's whether or not they get to utilise their strengths. A lot of times neurodivergent people are incredibly creative. They do well with collaboration and brainstorming. If they're in a role where it might be more isolated, might be more independent work, they might notice that it's hard to get the energy and motivation to complete their tasks because it's not as engaging. When something's not engaging can be much harder to start on a project. And when that's happening, you might see that deadlines so sort of rule the work is as a deadline approach, you start kicking it into gear because it's due. So you might feel particularly stressed on how you're accomplishing tasks. It can feel pretty overwhelming towards that end. Perhaps you're missing the deadline because you under or overestimated how much work was going to be included. We know over and underestimation is a big part of creating realistic goals, is what seems realistic. Once you start breaking it down, getting granular with time estimation, you might have been a little bit off the mark and now your boss is asking where a project is. It's not a great feeling. That's something that we commonly see getting to work on time. So again being able to get out the door, get to a meeting on time, joining a meeting late if you're virtual. That's something that we commonly see organisational systems. So being able to track and manage projects across time, those little details can often get missed or memory. Memory is a big part of it as well. Of do I remember what was assigned to me in a meeting? Do I remember what the agenda was? What did I have a, when I had a conversation with Joe, what did I say during that? Those are all components. Of course the list can go on, but I think that's probably a good beginning conversation of what we're talking about. I'm smiling because it sounds like you're talking to Joanne Lockwood: me here. A lot of people have that reaction of Alexandra Bellitter: wait a second, there's something that can be done about this. Hmm. Joanne Lockwood: So I've learned that I'm terrible at taking notes and if I do take notes I never go and read them again. If I don't remember it, I don't often refer back. And I've found that using AI note takers now in video calls helps me get a list of actions that come out of it. I can, I. And because they're bite size I can, I can work on that. It's just the whole enormity of hours conversation I think what did I agree with, what did I quote? Yeah. And the deadline thing resonates with me as well. You know I, I'm a five minute to midnight person. You know, I've had six months to do something and then five minutes before the deadline I try and pal it all in and then go hmm, I've over committed here or under resourced and it becomes a nightmare. And I think the other problem I have is that I can often find myself wanting to over deliver in that five minutes as well. I have this big expectation in my head that I've mapped it all out and I just want to go over have it all. It's, it's trying to optimise down what you've got time for, what you're going to deliver and it doesn't have to be perfect. I think I just want to perfect everything that could be in my downfall as well. Everything you're saying, it resonates with me completely. Yeah. And the, the over promising, Alexandra Bellitter: I just want to comment on that real quick is if you know you're going to be late On a project sometimes we try to mitigate that a little bit. So I'll hear members say, well it's going to be a day late but I'm going to add in this. And now they've added more to their plate to make up for the fact it's going to be late, adding more pressure, which makes sense of okay, how do I balance out this maybe bad news or inconvenient news with something good and then I've added more to my plate which maybe wasn't realistic. It makes a lot of sense but. It also the mountain Joanne Lockwood: gets higher at that point, doesn't it? Not only have you not done the first thing, you haven't done the second thing and the third thing you've over promised. So yeah, it's a real challenge. Yeah, yeah. It becomes a cycle. And Alexandra Bellitter: I want to be clear that if you work really well with that late pressure and you deliver on time, that's not a wrong way to go about it. That's perfectly acceptable system of I know I can get it done in this time and it's good quality and it's working for me. We're talking about when it's not working for you of my boss is a little upset or the client I'm working with is a little upset about the deadlines. I don't feel good after doing 48 hours of all nighters to get this process project in. That's when we're talking about like what systems need to change. But if your system's working that's, that's fine, you don't have to do it like everyone else. That's the great thing about our work is as long as it's working, fantastic. But sometimes it's not. Joanne Lockwood: So mine comes from learned behaviour. I've been in the workplace for best part of 40 years now and I've learned that so often the goalposts change, the deadlines change or the whole project gets cancelled or something radical happens to the projects. I think there's no point investing in it too early because it's bound to change nearer the dates. I wait until I think, well it's going to be locked in by now so I can actually hit something. So I think some of it is just recognising that the world's going to change before I get there and my brain just apologises to myself saying well we'll do it the last minute by that stage. And also I think if you overthink something when the deadline squeezes down you, you don't get the opportunity to do all the overthinking. You have to kind of optimise what you can do in that five minutes. I've got to get it out now. Okay, what can I do out of all the 50 things I was going to do? And you just make optimise it down. So I think that helps my brain as well, knowing that I can only achieve so much at the time and I can praise it down quickly. Alexandra Bellitter: Yeah, that definitely really emphasises quick decision making is there's no time for ambiguity or just being decisive. Sometimes it can be very hard to be decisive and the reason for that is there's a little bit of decision fatigue when you're looking at large projects. You know, keeping our focus in the workplaces there can be so many decisions that it becomes overwhelming to pick any. So when the time crunch comes in, I just have to execute. And it's not about weighing the pros and cons anymore, it's just about what's going to get the job done. When you're working with neurodivergent clients or neurodivergent colleagues, they're going to be considering a lot of different decisions that neurotypicals might not see. They might not see all the options. They might be pretty narrow in scope. But that's the great thing about your neuro virgin colleague is they can see the big picture pretty clearly. They see the opportunities, the greater possibilities, thinking. But it can also put them in a bind of how do I proceed in the best way. So I think about in a Joanne Lockwood: workplace I. I've got a manager who self identifies as neurotypical. I'll take their word for it if that's who they say they are. And I walk in there as a person who is unsure of their typicality and maybe has some traits or so how do I navigate that interface? Because do I declare my neurodivergence, do I talk about my attributes, how I behave in certain situations? So I do also like a little check sheet of who am I and how do I respond best and then negotiate that at the beginning. I mean, is that a good technique or. So it largely depends Alexandra Bellitter: on the workplace because just as much as it is about, I want to advocate for myself. We know that not all workplaces may be receptive. We don't know what the psychological safety of that workplace is. So I would hesitate to give any recommendation of you need to do it this way. You do not disclose it's largely dependent on the support system that you have at work, what your relationship with hr, what your relationship with your manager or the members of your team. But there is a way to navigate and ask for what you need without having to disclose if that's something that you're not sure of. Rather than sharing a specific diagnosis, you can talk about the different components within it. So for time management, I noticed that I really struggle to get this type of project in on time. I'm hoping to discover different accountability systems or different collaboration systems that can help me move forward. You can also talk about. Instead of time management, you can talk about. Everything is blanking right now, but like note taking. So coming out of meetings, there's really great information that's coming. At our meetings, we do hour and a half meetings. That's a lot for me to take away. I notice that when I'm writing notes, I'm not engaged in the conversation. What are the options for me to get the agenda before or after? Can someone email me a copy of the notes? That way we're talking about engagement. What is the workplace going to see as a benefit to you getting this new resource for this new accommodate? You don't actually have to name ADHD or memory issues. You can say the workplace is going to benefit. And this. I mean Joanne Lockwood: now we're. We're normalising conversations about menopause in the work workplace. People of a certain women of a certain age or a certain stage of their life have memory issues, brain fog as well. So it's not. It's. Many people have a neuro difference, if you like, at different stages of their life. And is there still a stigma? Is that still a problem? Is there stigma out there? I think Alexandra Bellitter: it shows up in different ways. Some workplaces it's going to be much more stigmatised of. This is how we do things and we expect you to conform. It can be really jarring to try to disclose in a workplace like that. There might be some workplaces where there's very obvious signals that it's meant to be psychologically safe. The. The CEO is talking about their neurodivergence. Your boss is talking about it. They have a group for neurodivergent colleagues to come together and work on project. I think there is a lot more to go with this conversation while it's becoming more visible and more public and that's incredible. I would say the general public's understanding of what narrow divergence is is still in the beginning stages. While we're starting to move away from the stigma of that word, the behaviours and traits and what this looks like in day to day isn't fully understood quite yet. We've already established that two neurodivergent people Joanne Lockwood: are having unique experience of the world. In the same way that if I was trying to interface with a neurotypical person, if I was to interface into a neurodivergent person, we still have to establish the protocols and the ground rules, won't we, about how we communicate, because we may have a difference of view, or we may actually rely on the other person to help us out in certain instances, and the other person's going to go, well, I don't do that either. That becomes another challenge to deal with, I guess. Yeah, it takes, Alexandra Bellitter: I would say, radical communication of your needs. And I think that's something that across the board, we could all do better at. Not just neurodivergent people, but also neurotypical people of. Rather than expecting people to communicate in the same way as you. Making those declarations of, this is when I feel heard. This is how I like to collaborate. How do you like to have these conversations? Rather than making assumptions, we can really come together, you know, workplaces, families, friendships. When we are very transparent about our needs because the other person is. I know it's cliche, but we are not mind readers. We all perceive things to be a little bit different. While I may really enjoy eye contact in a conversation and I know you're listening to me, for someone else, eye contact may be very uncomfortable. And being expected to hold eye contact means that they don't want to engage with you. It can actually harm a relationship. So little things like that. What I might read as you being dismissive because you're not making eye contact with me, you might be fully engaged in the conversation. We don't know unless we. We talk about how we engage socially. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I find this sometimes when I'm on video calls, I'll be looking at this screen or that screen or this screen up there, and I'm gathering information and without doing it. Now, as we're doing this podcast, I've got some notes on different screens so I can listen and look on a different screen at the same time. But I suppose when you're in a video scenario, you don't always know, do you? And people may treat that as being inattentive, not focusing. Exactly. They may think that you're not engaged, and Alexandra Bellitter: that's not the case. When I'm coaching with members, I have several members that choose to close their eyes while we're talking, and it helps them think better. They tune into our conversation more. They might feel Less distracted by their environment. That's a. Okay. I never stop to say, can you please open your eyes? I know they're engaging. They're responding to my questions and that's great. We all are being engaged in a different way. Are we Joanne Lockwood: kind of hung up on these social etiquette, this social construct of social etiquette, if you like, where we kind of expect people to behave as we were brought up or how we were told to behave. And when people transgress or digress from that middle line, we feel kind of insulted or threatened by it. Same Alexandra Bellitter: thing with not just the. Maybe the more facial cues we were talking about, but the use of a fidget, for example. A lot of times people associate it with like hyperactive little kids, but that's not the case. It can be helpful for your colleague that's at their desk to have a fidget in a meeting to use a fidget. That doesn't mean they're distracted by it. It might actually be helping them engage. Exactly. Joanne Lockwood: Yep. Got fidget toys with me. Got my little shark here, which I need to sort of play with that. So I've got fidget toys all around me at the moment. So that might not be common in a lot of workplaces. Alexandra Bellitter: So it's even things like that of what do we expect from the body to be doing? Rather than just like, how do I show engagement of nodding my head and making eye contact. It's also, is it okay that they're spinning in their chair? Of course, there may be times and places where some behaviours are more adaptive than others. Of this helps everyone concentrate more. That might be a bit of a balance on how we make sure everyone gets to be comfortable in that conversation or be engaged. But it's something that is better not assumed automatically of just making sure everyone's on the same page for what's going to be most conducive to this meeting. Why do you think there are Joanne Lockwood: more people? I'm going to use the phrase coming out as neurodivergent ADHD neurodifferences. What's changed over the last five, 10 years? We hear people blaming vaccines, we hear people blaming this and blaming that, but the reality is, obviously neurodivergent people have been around as long as humans have. So why are people starting to be more aware of neurodivergence now than ever before? Yeah, so I do want to be very clear that Alexandra Bellitter: when I'm talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a natural variation in how people present it is not something to be fixed, healed, treated. This is something that we're working with, this is something that we can be managed when there's difficulties. But there's also plenty of benefits with having a neurodivergent brain and I would say it's largely contributed to visibility of 20 years ago. The conversations looked very different, the stigma looked very different and a lot of people avoided a label for their child. So I hear plenty of times of, you know, I noticed my kid when he was 5 or 6 or my daughter in high school, I had some questions but I didn't know what a label would do, I didn't know how it would impact her self esteem or I didn't know what that would mean for their career. So they elected to not move forward with it. They didn't necessarily have those conversations with their kids or in the opposite. The child gets a diagnosis, you know, in high school and the parent starts thinking, well, that reminded me, like, reminds me of when I was in high school and I don't think that I'm neurodivergent and they go seek a conversation with a medical provider and they get a diagnosis. So it works both ways of just having more exposure, I think, as more medical providers get accustomed to being able to identify neurodivergence, as schools get more curious about what's going on with the child, rather than describing it as a behavioural problem of, you know, they're just naughty of, wow, they have a lot of energy, they seem to be really absorbed in this type of task. As we get more curious across the board of what's going on with each person, we're starting to notice that more. People are neurodivergent Joanne Lockwood: and it differs by gender as well, doesn't it? So boys would exhibit symptoms in a different way to young girls, for example, which is why it's been misdiagnosed in women for decades. Yeah, so it can present differently. Of course, Alexandra Bellitter: it's not a straight line of exactly how it presents for each gender, but it can look very different. And we know that misdiagnosis is very common. A lot of women are misdiagnosed as bipolar or borderline, rather than autistic or adhd. So there's also misdiagnosis that is later correctly identified or what they feel like is now is better diagnosis to reflect their experience. It's different for women, like you said earlier, when it comes to menopause, the hormonal changes, we noticed that even just with their cycles each month, that neurodivergence can look different because of the hormone fluctuations. It's definitely a different story for how to navigate it as a woman. What's a first sign if you like, you Joanne Lockwood: know, I'm just speaking to the person who's listening to this podcast right now thinking, could that be me? Or I'm not sure. How could people. And I appreciate there's not one test or one way of googling this and say, oh look, that's me. But what sort of things that people should look out for? Just, just illustratively, what can people look out for? So looking out for is an interesting way Alexandra Bellitter: to think about it because my, my first thought when you had started that question is having that conversation with your medical professional provider, a therapist. It does need to be someone that is very familiar with neurodivergence. Not everyone is. A lot of medical doctors may be somewhat aware, but others are going to really have an area of expertise. I would, I would seek out a conversation with someone that is very experienced with ADHD or autism assessments. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a formal assessment, but just being able to have those conversations of I'm noticing these things about myself. I would. The diagnostic material can be helpful. However, it doesn't show what it looks like in day to day life. There are many conversations I have with my clients where we're talking about finances and their budgeting goals and investment goals. And as we're talking about something, I may say, may I share an observation about how ADHD may be playing a role. And all of a sudden there's this light bulb moment of that's how ADHD looks. When I'm doing my finances. The diagnostic material doesn't show that. It doesn't show what it looks like in the workplace. And when you're doing finances or when you're parenting, that context is really essential. That's what we're looking at is what's going on in this actual life area. So it can actually be helpful to talk to your loved ones or workplace colleagues, see what they're noticing. I would say that can be the most helpful, is sometimes when we only have our own experience, we might not notice what other people are observing. And to start having those conversations of, you know, this, this sounded like me. I'm, I'm wondering if you've noticed that or how do you feel in our conversations or what have you noticed about my projects? That can be very helpful information and also something that your providers or trusted therapists might want to know as well. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I suppose because I'm self employed, I've worked for myself for decades. I don't need to necessarily explain to somebody else about me. If I'm dealing with a client, I'm dealing on very short projects or short interactions and as long as I deliver what they're after and perform, then I don't think my thinking style comes into it really. It's just, am I the best person for the job? Can I do it? So I don't feel any need to explore that and I'm sure there are many people listening to this who are kind of comfortable in their own skin. They don't need a label or an identity to put this around. But they're obviously realising that, thinking, well, yeah, I do think a bit like that. I do think a bit like that. Yeah, that happens to be as well. And we shouldn't, I think, I think the danger is if you're not careful, we feel that we're inadequate because we're not doing things the way other people do. We're allowed to be different, aren't we? Absolutely. And Alexandra Bellitter: there's a lot of things that attribute to that. It's a pretty common statistic that goes around that a neurodivergent child is going to hear 20,000 more negative comments than their peers by the age of 12. How are teachers expecting you to behave in school? Same thing for high school. If you go into higher education of, well, I expect students to be doing this, you'll hear rule expectations and workplace expectations and it can feel like there's not a lot of wiggle room in that of what accommodations are there or how accessible is this workplace? And so because the automatic default, which no one explained that there were alternatives to, you're doing it differently of I'm not meeting the mark. It's because there's not that larger conversation of there is wiggle room or it can't be done in a different way. And we know a lot of neurodivergent individuals do go on to be entrepreneurs and set their own workplace standards because the traditional way wasn't working for them. So I'm going to do it my way. I'm going to do it in a way that I thrive and it works really well for them. So I. I've always considered myself Joanne Lockwood: uncoachable. In fact, my family always say I, I would never do as I'm told, I would never follow someone else's rules. How would you work with me then to so I've already said I. I'm. I'm terrible with deadlines. I'll procrastinate for weeks until the last minutes. What sort of techniques can I. Can I learn that I might actually adopt? That's the hard thing. I mean, you can tell me and come up with a great idea. I won't do that. I'll never change either. Do I have to find acceptance or other techniques that I can start to adopt to help me with that? It might be a bit of both. I wouldn't Alexandra Bellitter: say it's going to be one way or the other, but the first thing I would say that as a coach, I'm not here to tell you what to do. We know that nobody likes to be told what to do, especially if it's things that you've already tried. The biggest part of coaching is the collaboration piece of exploring to view things in a way you haven't viewed before, to challenge you on thoughts, to see how much they're serving you. So I might introduce new concepts that you haven't heard of. Would you be curious to hear about this or this is a technique that I've seen work for other people. Would you like to explore how it could work for you? But I will never assign a specific framework or a specific technique of this is what you're going to do for a week and tell me how it goes. It's not very empowering. I think the biggest thing, what we're trying to do in any neurodiversity coaching is empowerment of you still know your life better than I. I may have more frameworks to use, more models to pull on, more techniques for exposure, but ultimately, you know it's gonna work best for your life and you know what you like. No one wants to do something that they don't like to do. It's not going to be a successful system. So that's really what the partnership is about, is we leave every session with something that you're excited to try, or even if you're not super excited about it, you're willing to try. You want to explore why it's not working for you. And together we'll take that next step in the next session of how do we keep moving forward? But demand avoidance is absolutely a thing. And going to try to avoid triggering that. Yeah. I would say from Joanne Lockwood: my perspective, if the first question was to me, does it cause you a problem? I go, no, it doesn't. It's just, I know that's the way my brain works. I know that's what I do. So I have my own coping mechanisms and I make sure that I've got that Five minutes to midnight space that I know I can just land a plane when I have to. And so I guess you have to have faith sometimes in your own ability to deliver what you need to do when you need to do it or, or have good mitigation strategies when you really miss it. Understand the risk. I guess it's risk management, isn't it? It's kind of part of it. If I know I can talk myself out of it, no one's gonna, no one's gonna die. You know, the world will keep turning then it's not a problem. Is sounds like you have systems Alexandra Bellitter: that are working for you. Of I know exactly what to expect. I'm getting it done in time and my clients don't mind. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I as I say I'm privileged that I don't have a, an employer who is minute by minute demanding on me. I can create my own deadlines. And I also appreciate when I'm working with clients I make sure I factor in expectations at the beginning. So yeah. So you know what you're going to do. And I also, the other thing I do is I book a follow up meeting several days before so it's due or if we're going to do a webinar or something with someone. I said let's have a briefing call a couple days before just to check in on what we're going to be talking about on the Thursday. Because very often I turn up to that going who are you? What we're going to talk about. I've forgotten all about this. Wouldn't we agree. And I just have a way of phrasing it. So let's just recap what's your expectation of what we're going to be doing on Thursday? And they tell me I go that's exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you. Yeah. If we were actually doing coaching because I know a few Alexandra Bellitter: questions back you said how would you work with me? My first question would be about your goals. If you like your current system, you don't necessarily want to change it. What would you like from coaching? What would you want to be different? And as we go into that visioning of what you would like your life to look like, well, we'll talk about partnering together to make that happen. But if you don't want change, that's okay too. Of I, I like where I'm at. This is working and perhaps not. It's not something you want coaching on. Joanne Lockwood: No, no. We've picked an example here that actually I'm very comfortable with. Like Many humans I'm inherently lazy. I look for the simplest and easiest path path to success and to change what inherently works for me. I've just turned 60. I'm probably getting a bit old to want to start new habits. Yeah I guess I'm functioning as an adult finally. Alexandra Bellitter: Never want to tell someone how to feel about themselves. But I think lazy is one of those terms that a lot of neurodivergent individuals subscribe subscribe to of I'm just lazy. And that's generally not the case. We know humans are inherently goal oriented beings of we're usually in the pursuit of something. There's always a value that we're going after. To an extent it just sounds like resourcefulness. From a coach of I can see the clearest path. I'm going to do that. We know the brain loves to default to easy but it's not necessarily always lazy. It's just being able to see like this is what's going to require the least amount of resources from me. I can execute it. Well there's just a level of intelligence in that rather than laziness of I I can see the path from A to B and I did it. Optimising the Joanne Lockwood: route I think is what you're saying there. Yeah, I've optimised what works for me. Yeah, I agree. It's, it's not lazy. It's just I'm good at optimising and spending the minimum amount of brain power or physical contribution to a task if I don't need to do it. So yeah, I, I'm not, I'm not somebody who goes out for a run for the sake of going for a run. Because where am I going? I'm going back to where I started. So why do I want to run? The great question Alexandra Bellitter: is what is important about running? And if it ends up being well, I just want to feel good in my body and I want an abundance of energy. Well, maybe we don't need to run. Let's talk about other pathways that still get you to that ultimate goal. We can get distracted by overly concrete goals. Sometimes of it has to be done this way. Well what are we really exactly? What are we really working towards? And there's going to be different pathways and sometimes we get just very locked in and that's the helpful thing about a coach is being able to zoom out again of like okay, we're getting really fixated on this one particular thing. How much is that serving us and where else can we go? And maybe that is the thing and maybe we need to work harder on that. When I say work harder, it's not about discipline or energy. It's about the experimentation of. We need to dive in deeper of different ways we can do it. Not just buckling down and giving double the energy because we know most people when they're. They're searching goals, they're. Or pursuing goals rather they are like spending an incredible amount of energy to do it. So it's not just trying harder but doing it in different ways. Joanne Lockwood: Hmm. So what, what areas do people I'm going to stereotype here, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to step out of that question. Stereotypes of people with ADHD really hyper focused. They could be extremely efficient and we talk about here about efficiency and not being lazy optimising tasks. They can and I say they. I'm going to put a we into that because I think I can we enough so I could feel part of this. By shutting off the world and really focusing on one task, I can get a lot done. I think the trouble is that people are around me, don't recognise that I need to switch off all my senses and that could cause frustration around. Am I not listening? I'm not paying attention. Or didn't you hear me shouting out or, or I just want to interrupt you and ask you a question. Ask me a question. It would take me three hours to get back my brain back to where it was. It's like closing all the tabs on your browser one by one. You got to try and open them all again. Yeah, there's just Alexandra Bellitter: a, a misunderstanding because again, from social norms of, well, I can hear you when you're yelling at me. I have the expectation that you're going to behave the exact same way I do in this situation and that's not the case. I actually have this conversation probably with all of my clients, whether it's a, a boss saying, why weren't you responding to my slack messages? I've been pinging you. But they're really focused on building portfolio or their spouse has been yelling at them that dinner's done for the past 20 minutes and they finally come upstairs and they're livid. It's an expectation that hasn't necessarily been communicated and we haven't found a way that works for both of us yet. It's just the expectation that you must be like me and respond in the same way. I've noticed we talked about Joanne Lockwood: fidget toys earlier. I've noticed when I'm in situations with fidget toys, I'm far less likely to pick my phone up and play with it. I noticed I was at a conference one day and they had fidget spins on the table and I thought brilliant. How new inclusive is that? Just putting out, you know, little toys and things people can play with. And I started playing with one on my, on my hand. I think a ball or something like I'm holding now. And I realised at the end of the day I hadn't one picked my. Pick my phone up and doom scrolled or yeah. Had to make sure that every single red dot on my icons was gone. I couldn't handle. I can't handle a red dot on my icons. I have to clear all my notifications every time I see them. So are we using our phone sometimes as our. As our fidget spinner? Is it fueling our hunger or is it the other way around? Are our phones creating the hunger? Which way is it? That's a really Alexandra Bellitter: hard question to answer. I would say many times. I think because the phone is meant to be a huge dopamine sink. I'm going to call it a sink because we're getting really short bursts. That's the new. Just tap that. That's the new way of getting content is usually pretty short 30 second videos, it's meant to be infinite. Square scroll across the board. I think as humans we're just really, really engaged with our phone because it's intended to be social media sites from websites are intended to grab our attention and we have a bit of an attention economy of how can we hold your attention for a long time because that's profitable. So I would say yes, the phone can be one of those sources of how do I entertain myself, how do I get stuck stimulation, whether or not it works as a fidget, potentially because you are using your. Your hands to scroll. That could be the case. I think there's probably a bunch of different factors that go into why we might be reaching for our phone. But in the case where you just notice you need stimulation, the phone can be one of the quickest ways to get it and build that habit of well, I'm just not motivated yet so I'm going to go on my phone to. To get that stimulation to get entertainment. It's a huge time thing. So it is about finding alternative ways that can help boost your brain to get you to a point where you're motivated to do a task. That absolutely is something I work with with many of my members. But it's hard because phone is so accessible. So there's usually Creating friction with the phone. So it's not the most appealing choice, it's not the easiest reach and increasing the likelihood that you'll go for something else. So there's a lot of science around habit building that, that we go through with me and my members. I know that's a bit of a roundabout answer, but I think there's a lot that comes with talking about technology. So that's, that's probably the route I would go. So you don't think it's not the phone's causing the Joanne Lockwood: neurodivergent tendencies? It's kind of. You have the neurodivergent tendencies anyway, and the phone is just a potential outlet in the same way other fidgets and spinners and something to lock your brain onto rather than stim or fidget with something else. Alexandra Bellitter: Yeah, and I think there's a larger conversation happening right now about technology and the demands. We're in a very unique place in time where we are constantly being bombarded with notifications, whether that's our email, our text, our slack or teams, our phone alarms going off, our kitchen alarms going off, our calendar beeping that we have to be somewhere. Ten minutes, reminder that we have to be somewhere. There are a lot of demands and alerts that are pulling our attention at different directions. So I think just as the human species, we're dealing with a lot of demands in a way that we haven't before. But it is entirely different for neurodivergent individuals. Their sensitivity to those alerts is different than for a neurotypical. So while all of us may be dealing with more demand and things pulling us away from our tasks, it is experienced very differently between neurotypicals and neurodivergent. It's funny, as you're talking there, my Joanne Lockwood: brain has just gone off into a different direction. I'm now just showing how crazy my brain is sometimes. I'm now wondering why we call them phones. I know why they used to be called phones, but now I hardly ever phone on my phone. 90% of my battery is on social media, browsing, chatgpt, texting people, whatsapping, whatever it may be. It's no longer really a phone, is it? We should be calling personal communication devices. Sorry, this is what I was thinking about when you kept talking about phones. It's like I was off on one. But yeah, you're right. We've got all these different sort of sources of stimulation and you say the notifications, the bombardment, we're data driven, we're. We're stimulus driven. In everything we do. And most of the social media has emotions attached to them as well, don't they? Likes hate, smiley face emojis. We're all feeding off this kind of social etiquette, trying to keep in contact with people and be stimulating each other. And no wonder that we as a society today are becoming kind of locked into these habits because we can't put the world down anymore. Yeah, and I love what you said about social etiquette Alexandra Bellitter: there of just like we were speaking about. What does someone expect in a conversation with us? It is different when we're talking about virtual communication of how quickly do they expect a response from us? How inconvenient is it for me to try to respond to text quickly when I'm trying to focus on a portfolio and test switching can be more difficult. Those are all additional layers that we're having to explore of now that I am so accessible. What do boundaries look like? What systems work well for me? What do I need to communicate? So everyone has a good expectation of how I I'll get back to them or how I'll update them. It's a lot more consideration that has to go into each conversation. And unfortunately it feels like the burden falls on the neurodivergent person because more often than not and I also don't want to do a sweeping statement to say this is how neurotypicals are. But a lot of neurotypical people are not thinking about how the world might be experiencing, experienced, or how this notification may impact a neurodivergent colleague or friend. So unfortunately there's a lot of advocacy to say, hey, this is how this impacts me or hey, I will get back to this on Fridays. I check my text on Fridays or at the end of the day, how you create a routine looks a little different. Yeah, I've had to go Joanne Lockwood: through my my phone or we call it personal communication device now and turned off notifications on any app that I really didn't care about because I found myself going into these regularly just clearing the little red dots. So I thought, hang on a minute. If I just. All I did is clearing it. Let's just turn. I don't need it. And I also leave my phone these days on DND most of the day and if I miss calls, I miss calls. So what, you'll email me, you'll text me or if you phone me twice, it'll break through the dnd. So I tend to go, my phone's on silent mode for most things and maybe five o' clock in the evening I'll sit and go, oh, blimey, that's been a busy day. And then respond to things and I'll sit there all evening responding to emails in the evening instead. But yeah, it's. I think you have to start to learn to manage these interruptions. In the old days when you had a phone on your desk, I remember doing a time management course and I was always. These time management courses always said to you, just because the phone rings, it doesn't mean it's more important than what you're already doing. But we have this betrained phone ring, pick it up, answer it, deal with it. It's interrupt driven. If you can break that interrupt cycle where whatever, whatever's interrupting you must be more important saying no. So I've kind of learned that approach in my life that I know what I'm doing is important. Something else is unlikely to be more important at this moment. So that's the technique I use, is just try and stay focused and prioritise on what I'm doing. Alexandra Bellitter: Yeah. It can be challenging for some people to identify what is the priority. That might be a skill that they're still working on developing it also, like that works really well for you and for someone that's listening, that might feel like, I don't know who's on the other side of that call. How do I know if it's more important? That's something that, as a coach, we can work together to make sure you feel confident that you're always focusing on the most important thing. Yeah. I think the modern community, I mean, certainly my iPhone Joanne Lockwood: has a way of setting up different focus statuses. And I can put certain people in those focus groups and say, okay, if they phone, it is important. If it's an unknown number, it's like to be a spam or a junk call. And if it isn't, they'll leave me a message. I'll get it. And now my phone transcribes it. I've even got to listen to it. I just read out what it says. It's even better. I hate listening to voicemails. I want them transcribed and it's brilliant. And if someone leaves me a voice note. Oh, what did you leave me a voice note for? You left me a voice note on a text communication device. Doesn't work. If you want to text me, text me. Don't talk to me. If I wanted to talk to you or speak to you. What makes you think they're choosing to use audio? Well, because they can't bother to Type whatever. I don't know. They're busy doing something else and they just decide to talk to me. So I always reply by text and they go, what are you texting me back for? Can't you just leave? I don't. I'm old school. I'm a texter, not a. Not a voice message. Yeah. Alexandra Bellitter: It's interesting because some of my members will actually elect to start using voice notes because they notice it's very hard for them to type out what they're thinking. So they won't respond to text for tape. And then they feel guilty that they haven't responded for days. So they want to send a really nice message and they have to figure out what the nice message is. And their shortcut has been, I'll send an audio and I'll just tell them what I'm thinking right now so I can communicate and they know they're important. So it's interesting how, again, that's just. How do we communicate in the way that's best for us? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I. Our son is. I think he was diagnosed as being dyslexic in some parameters after he left school. We know that if we text him on WhatsApp, he won't read it. And often what we'll do is you'll see the notification, read the first line, and then ignore it. It doesn't, you know, he's. He's. As far as he's concerned, he's read it but not acknowledged it, and we find that frustrating. And Nikki's saying, don't text me because I won't reply. We go, okay, I remember, but I'm a texter, so it's really hard. So I bet if I left him a voice note or if you start leaving us voice notes, it'd be much easier. But yeah, we've taken that to phoning him once a week. It's easier. We know he's gonna pick up the phone if we phoned him and talk to him or video call. So, yeah, it's. It's an interesting way that we got to. Even amongst people who are typical or not typical, we gotta establish our communication parameters, haven't we? Absolutely. Alexandra Bellitter: And it sounds like you found yours with the phone call of. Let's just once a week, cut it down. This makes sense. Yeah. And it Joanne Lockwood: is. It's. It's finding all these scenarios that don't work and finding a middle ground that does work. That's what we're talking about here. And I guess that's what you're doing with your Coaching is helping people hit the things that bother them and find solutions to make them less bothersome, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. It's about the fact Alexandra Bellitter: that neurodivergence, in many ways, there might be struggles associated with it, but it doesn't mean that you have to struggle. It's just about finding what works really well for your brain, what works for your lifestyle and being able to capitalise on what's working well. It's all about seeing systems that work rather than trying to fix what's broken. It's moving towards feeling good. So we're coming towards the end Joanne Lockwood: of our hour together. How would you engage with somebody who's listening to this? Who a is? Maybe. Maybe a couple of scenarios. One is that they're. Their neurodiversity bothers them and they need to sort of get themselves into a position where they can start to tackle some of the things that really bother them. Or people are just more curious about the way their brain works and how they can probably explore and uncover and dive deeper into that to discover where are they with their brain. So there's two scenarios. The answer to Alexandra Bellitter: both of those is the same. Of course, I'm biassed because I'm an ADHD coach, but with ADHD coaching there are three different elements. So that first is the traditional life coaching, where we're talking about the visions, the goals, the experiments each week and using your strengths. The second piece is going to be psychoeducation. So if you're curious about how does the ADHD brain work? How is ADHD showing up? For me, those are absolutely conversations that we can have. It's all about becoming more informed and empowered with this information. How do I want to proceed? What does this mean for me? Why do I want to know about that? It's all questions that we can go through together. And then the third piece being executive function coaching or skill building, if there's something where you're noticing, hey, you know, I'm really struggling with time management or decision making. Those are things we can talk about. Different frameworks, different tools that you can use and you can pick and choose what you'd like to work on. But we can introduce you to different concepts and see how you feel about it. So in any scenario, coach will be able to meet where you're at. It's not meant to say coaching has to look one way. It doesn't. It can be very explorative. It can be more implementation. A qualified and an experienced coach will be able to meet you where you're. At and how can Joanne Lockwood: someone in the workplace say they're a manager or team lead as someone they suspect is neurodivergent in some way? What techniques can they use to try and engage with somebody who's neurodivergent? So Alexandra Bellitter: if that person has not disclosed, I would be talking more about the behaviours that you're seeing of. I notice with projects XYZ is happening. What we would like is ABC to be happening. Are you open to exploring different ways that we could do that or could you tell me more about your experience with this project? It's important that people don't feel othered of. I feel like my boss is talking to me in a way where I'm not part of the team or it is about keeping the conversation open. So just focusing on behaviours, the workplace expectations and working together to meet those or see what accommodations can be made. We understand that workplaces generally may have a particular set of expectations for a job to be executed. So just having a very transparent conversation with the employee in a way that you're employing radical candour of. There's. There's care within that conversation. It's not threatening, it's not meant to be. A huge criticism must be done with curiosity and empathy. People aren't broken, they don't need fixing. They just Joanne Lockwood: need to have different ways of working and to achieve the same goal and objective or adjusting the objective so that everyone can win and succeed. Because often the. Not every, not every goal or objective is hard and fast. It's just custom and practise. So you can sometimes change the pathway to achieve the same goal, can't you? Yeah, absolutely. It's meant to be flexible. Life is Alexandra Bellitter: meant to be flexible. It's more fun that way, isn't it? Just figuring out Joanne Lockwood: as you go if it's too mapped out, too planned. It feels a bit rigid. And humans, we like that, that voyage of discovery. Sometimes I know not everybody. Some people want certainty, some people want rule sets. Other people are quite happy with chaos, aren't they? Alexandra Bellitter: Everyone's a little bit different. Um, but that's the great thing is you can adapt a life that meets what you find exciting, meets what you find safe. Alex, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. I Joanne Lockwood: always sometimes think conflicts when I have like this helps me self diagnose myself. So I always find it useful. How do people get ahold of you? Alexandra Bellitter: So couple ways. You can always just shoot me an email at alexhimmer Care. I'm the lead coach at shimmeradhd coaching, so you can always access me through the website or on my LinkedIn. Alexandra Belletier Fantastic. Fantastic and Joanne Lockwood: well, thank you so much for your time, for sharing your expertise and I've got something out of this today and I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was a Alexandra Bellitter: great conversation. As we bring this conversation Joanne Lockwood: to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.