---
title: "Beyond The DEI Backlash"
episode: 161
date: 2025-05-29
guest: "Wema Hoover"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/161-beyond-the-dei-backlash
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-161/audio.mp3
---

# Beyond The DEI Backlash

Joanne Lockwood is joined by global DEI expert and former Chief Diversity Officer Wema Hoover to explore what sits behind today’s DEI backlash and what organisations can do to sustain inclusion in uncertain times. They discuss how misinformation and zero-sum thinking have distorted the purpose of DEI, and why many organisations are reacting by quietly removing language or scaling back initiatives. Wema argues for returning to first principles: inclusion as sound business strategy that strengthens employee engagement, builds culturally relevant customer connection, and supports innovation. The conversation turns practical, with guidance for HR and leaders on protecting psychological safety, focusing on culture and retention, and embedding fair processes that reduce bias without relying on quotas. They also address the emotional toll and burnout facing HR and inclusion practitioners, and the importance of coaching leaders and creating spaces where employees can talk honestly about what they’re experiencing. Throughout, the episode challenges the idea that diversity undermines meritocracy, and reinforces that strong systems and values-led culture are what allow the best talent to thrive—especially when external pressure and political headwinds intensify.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — "Inclusion Bites: Bold Conversations"
- 04:06 — Championing True Diversity and Inclusion
- 09:06 — DEI Trends in Fortune 500 Companies
- 13:27 — Kindness and Protection Amidst Challenges
- 15:36 — Unexpected Political Reckoning Unfolds
- 18:07 — Media's Rapid Reporting Overwhelms Public
- 20:47 — Fear of Diversity and Change
- 26:31 — "Emphasising Organisational Values and Inclusion"
- 31:02 — Diverse Talent Misunderstood and Undervalued
- 34:50 — "Effective Business Practices Enhance Growth"
- 37:56 — Business Strategies Aligned with Inclusion
- 40:43 — Rise of Female Entrepreneurship Post-Pandemic
- 42:40 — Assessing and Enhancing Organisational Culture
- 46:33 — Executive Coaching for Organisational Resilience
- 49:28 — Embracing Change Through Local Actions
- 53:00 — Signing Off Promise to Return

## Key takeaways

- The real motivations behind the current DEI backlash and the dangers of zero-sum thinking in corporate and societal contexts.
- Differentiating between reactive, “window-dressing” DEI initiatives and those that are genuinely integrated into core business strategy.
- How to anchor inclusion and equity efforts in organisational values and purpose, minimising exposure to backlash and external political pressures.
- The importance of cultural conditions and psychological safety, especially for smaller organisations with limited resources.
- The necessity of shifting focus from headline-grabbing hiring quotas to retention, progression, and meaningful employee engagement.
- How deceptive narratives around “meritocracy” and “second best” can undermine genuine attempts at creating fair opportunities.
- Practical ways to keep teams motivated, maintain resilience, and drive micro-level behavioural change during times of societal or legislative regression.

## FAQs

### What is the current “DEI backlash” and how has the landscape shifted recently?

There has been a notable increase in criticism and resistance towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives, particularly in the United States. Wema Hoover highlights that under the country’s new political administration, DEI has faced accusations of being unfair or discriminatory to majority groups. This has led to a number of organisations publicly de-investing, minimising, or rebranding their DEI strategies, sometimes in direct response to sociopolitical pressures and executive orders.

### Is the withdrawal from DEI initiatives widespread among large companies?

No, it is not as widespread as recent media might suggest. While some high-profile companies have scaled back DEI efforts, Hoover explains that most of these are organisations that adopted DEI initiatives in response to social movements such as Black Lives Matter after the murder of George Floyd in 2020, rather than as part of sustained, integrated business strategy. Overall, the majority of organisations with deeply rooted DEI values and strategies have maintained their commitment.

### What misconceptions fuel the anti-DEI sentiment?

A major misconception is the “zero sum” mentality: that opportunities for historically underrepresented groups directly equate to losses for others, particularly white men. This misinterpretation undermines the intent of equity, which is to level the playing field and facilitate meritocracy by providing fair access—rather than preference or advantage.

### Why do some see DEI as being at odds with meritocracy?

Critics often argue that DEI initiatives compromise the principle of hiring the “best person for the job.” However, the discussion reveals that, far from promoting “second best,” effective DEI practices are about removing barriers so that true merit can emerge, as not everyone begins from the same starting point. The myth that diversity measures lower standards is not supported by evidence.

### What role does organisational culture play in successful DEI outcomes?

Culture is paramount. Both speakers stress that DEI should be rooted in core organisational values, integrated into business strategy, and evident in everyday behaviours. A truly inclusive culture fosters psychological safety, encourages authentic contribution, and supports both recruitment and retention of diverse talent.

### Should organisations change their DEI language or approach in the face of backlash?

Instead of retreating or merely rebranding, Hoover urges organisations to remain anchored to their values. She advocates focusing on the practical business benefits of inclusion—such as employee engagement, talent attraction, innovation, and customer connection—while ensuring compliance and resilience at a systems level.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 161 with the title, beyond the DEI backlash. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Wema Hoover. Wema is a global diversity, equity, and inclusion expert and former chief diversity officer for Fortune 500 companies, including, no less, Google and Sanofi, dedicated to driving systemic change and cultural transformation. When I asked Weymah to describe her superpower, she said that it is championing sustainable DEI strategies in a shifting corporate landscape. And don't we need that right now? Hello, Wema. Welcome to the show.

Wema Hoover: Hello, Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And you're based in the New Jersey, did I hear you say? I am. I'm based based in Princeton, New Jersey,

Wema Hoover: which is right outside New York City and situated between Philadelphia and New York. It's a bit nippy, bit cold over there at the moment. Yes. We've got a cold front. This is our typical Northeast weather that we have forgotten for many years, but came back blistering over this. Yeah. But it's quite nostalgic. I don't I don't mind so much. No. It's it's nice sometimes. It it changes it up a bit

Joanne Lockwood: as you I think you're saying in the agreement, get chance to wear some different shoes, different coats, and, different outfits. Exactly. I'm pulling out

Wema Hoover: all of my heavy coat and my various different, shoes that has Gore Tex and the different materials for cold weather to keep your feet warm. So it's been a lot. It's been a long you know, we would definitely will welcome the spring, but right now, the fireplace, the heated blankets, all of that, I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying for the moment. I'm shivering just thinking about it. Yeah. In The UK, it's we get

Joanne Lockwood: frightened if it gets to one degree centigrade. So, yeah, we have, we're struggling here at the moment. K. Waima, you're telling me about your name. It's a beautiful name. What's the what's the history behind it? Thank you.

Wema Hoover: Yes. My name is Wema, which is Swahili, and it's, spelled w e m a, and the e is pronounced like a long a, that language. And it means true goodness. So, that is, you know, the back road of my name and was given to me through my parents. They were, you know, in the early seventies and here in America wanted to embrace our heritage. And so I've embraced it and I've hopefully lived up to the name through the work that I've done and how I show up in the world. That's a truly beautiful day, Amanda, and even

Joanne Lockwood: more peaceful meaning. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Lovely to meet you. We talked about your superpower. You know, championing sustainable DEI strategies as shifting corporate landscape. And we first started talking about this podcast back in October, November last year, and the landscape has shifted. It's not aggressively slow anymore. It's like a it's been an avalanche in the last few weeks, hasn't it? What's happened? It

Wema Hoover: has. You know, it's been quite this change under our new political administration, which has, you know, really targeted diversity, equity, inclusion programs as one as as being unfair and discriminated against, you know, those that are not in the minority and marginalized community. And which I think is unfortunate about it is that it is really not understanding and taking, in consideration the intent of diversity, equity, inclusion program, which is not to provide advantage or preference, but it's to provide access and level opportunities so the best and brightest can shine. But unfortunately, that is not the narrative that is being purported, and it is actually being hijacked. And really, you know, a lot of misinformation around it is prevailing. And, what I am doing, through my work and my consultancy is helping organizations continue to leverage inclusion, equity, tapping into the diverse experiences, perspectives, backgrounds, sexual orientation of the workforce so that it can truly, truly maximize, the talent and potential that'll drive their organizations forward. So I'm working with, you know, my clients and I'm working also with organizations to ensure that the, you know, that the true meaning, and, and, and, and essence and purpose of inclusion, equity, and really the value of diversity is not lost and that it can still be leveraged, not only for the employee engagement to make sure that everyone feels like they are working in a safe, welcoming environment that they feel like we belong, but also for connecting with the customers, the clients, and having impact. Right? And serving, you know, your constituency in the most, culturally relevant and respectful and dignified way. Do you think

Joanne Lockwood: some of this backlash is because many people trying to implement the equity agenda, for want of a better way of describing it? I don't I don't like that phrase myself, felt that they were being marginalized themselves. So the the white man has found themselves being pushed out of opportunity, and that's where the backlash has come from. Yes, Joanne. I think it's a bit of that.

Wema Hoover: And, also, I think there is a mindset of zero sum gain so that if you gain and have access and I see more of people who are not like me, then I am automatically assuming that I'm at a loss. When in actuality, it is not, you know, a zero sum game. It is opening the aperture so that the true fabric of what United States and America was made on actually flourishes. Right? It actually flourishes and thrive because if you look at any point in history and especially in The United States history, the time that United States have grown from an industrial standpoint, from a technical standpoint, from a manufacturing standpoint is also correlates to the highest times of immigration. So that diversity was at the center of every growth, every expansion, every innovative, in in in innovative change and shift in the country, it was correlated with immigration and really being able to leverage all of the different talent experiences and skill skills of the people coming into our country. So the sad thing about it is, is that we know this, this is evident. This is in our history, in our research, but yet in yet instilled this like, you know, misinformed and, you know, completely false narrative is raining because there is an assumption that, you know, because we're giving the opportunities that there is a loss for a particular community or a group of people. And my fear is that that loss is gonna translate into a loss of our ability to become and maintain our competitive nature to harness the, the true talent and potential and that, you know, we live in a global world right now. These are individual, you know, people are able to, you know, be employed to get opportunities outside of The US or in other forms. So I say that it's even more imperative now for our society, for organizations, to really anchor themselves and connect their, you know, DEI efforts, inclusion efforts, whether it's just be shifting the names, making sure that it is really centering all people so that they can truly tap into and and and leverage and maximize the the best skills, innovation, ideas, and perspectives of the people in society. What's surprising me is the number

Joanne Lockwood: of household names, big brands that are suddenly purging their own DEI initiatives, on their Facebook pages, pages on their website, not part of the federal government. They'd be waiting for an excuse to drop this, or do you think it's they're being leveraged by by the administration to make these changes? Yeah. That's an interesting,

Wema Hoover: question, Joanna. And I, you know, and I I wanna, you know, actually address that. And although we have been seeing, you know, a ramped amount and and been publicized, the companies that are kind of deinvesting or minimizing their DEI, which is a propaganda strategy as well, because it's not, it's not, it's not all of them. I mean, if you, you look at it, I think, you know, they did, a, an estimate and I think it was between seven to 8% of the Fortune 500 companies. However, if you also extract that and dig a little deeper, those are the companies that have only been invested in DEI probably for the last four to five years. So they're the ones who literally, when we had the horrible murder of George Floyd in 2020, that was a pivotal point, not only in The United States, but across every market and every country where you really looked at, you know, what is happening between the markets, not only the opportunities, but the impact that they're having in society with access to, you know, grow to have opportunities that everyone was reevaluating. Those are the companies who really touted and stood up their programs. And now, you know, we can truly say that perhaps that was just window dressing. Right. It was a moment in time that it was socially acceptable to do something, do those. But if you really kind of dig into those that have de invested are the ones that have not been, has not had it a part of their strategic imperatives that has only been, you know, really focused on it through that time, right, as a response, but not as a practical approach to their workforce development, to their talent strategy, and to their market segmentation and ability to drive their business.

Joanne Lockwood: I remember probably six or seven years ago, if not maybe more, when it was either North Carolina or South North Carolina had the bathroom bill, wasn't it? They signed the bathroom bill in North Carolina, the first state to do so. There was a real solidarity between behind a lot of serious brands and corporate companies posing it, pulling their confidence out of it, basically saying, we're not gonna support North Carolina anymore. That is that solidarity still there? Is that is there other people gonna push back, or is the the administration too powerful at the federal level now? You know, that is a broad question, and I I

Wema Hoover: can't give a definitive answer. What I can say is that I think right now, we are still within the first one hundred days of our new administration. And I think everyone is really paralyzed because no one knows what's coming next. These changes have come so fast and furious. I think everyone is really trying to kind of make meaning of what to do, how to maintain, you know, the efforts and their intention, the ones who, you know, the companies, organizations, and the states that are truly trying to make a difference and ensuring that everyone feels safe, feels included, feels like they belong, have this environment that they can truly be their authentic self. So I do believe that right now we are in a place of just being stale and waiting to see what is happening because literally these things, you know, Joanna's happening daily. I, I, I cannot tell you. It's almost like our head is spinning every single day with something new. And so I have been counseled and I, you know, I know a lot of, the focus had been on how do we retain instead of being reactive and having an emotional and a direct response to these, all of the executive orders, the changes coming out, how do we retain what is good and what we know what works for us? How do we connect it to our value systems, connect it to how we share our shareholders? I gave you the examples. Costco. Costco's shareholder put a, vote to rid of its DEI programs and not have any of them. And Costco, you know, pushed back and said, no, we are not doing that because that is the nature and the essence of how we engage our customer and clients. And we want them to come into the Costco and feel that it is actually connected to them. It understands them. It's actually giving them, you know, products and services. You know, products and services and access to things that are and so they rejected them. And I think that that's what the position that, you know, kind of most organizations are. And I think that that's a position that most states are are doing, kind of how do we protect, right, protect right now in this series. See, you know, we're in still in that first hundred days, what it is coming that obviously can can legally, be, defended in this time and error. So we are still in the thick of of things, you know, but I think I shared with you earlier what is keeping me encouraged. Even though every day, it has been an effort to get up and stay encouraged, around, you know, the small you know, the acts of kindness that has been so increased tremendously. Like I've experienced it and I had done that. I think there is a spirit and energy. It's like, you know, whatever's happening at the macro level, what kindness, what extension of humanity can I drive myself that really impacts the community I am? I've felt that and seen that in tremendous ways. And that is giving me the energy and the courage to know that, you know, there is still that passive resistance through create you know, like Maha Gandhi said, you know, be the change you wanna create. And and I've experienced As an observer from the other

Joanne Lockwood: side of the pond, the, it seems like a a dystopian reality that Margaret Atwood put, created in Handmaid's Tale. Some of these things are just with the last administration four or five years ago, I believe that things like that could happen. And I'm I'm believing it even more now that one day, women's rights are gonna be peeled back so far, and nobody's gonna be standing up and saying, no. We're dismantling too much of the protection mechanisms, Roe versus Wade to push back anti abortion everywhere, women being pulled out of influential positions in power, demonized for was it the the coast guard? Head of the coast guard was a woman being blamed for disasters, almost like a resetting. Rhetoric such as if you want a job done properly, it has to be a man, has to be a white man, and and women aren't able to deliver. We want more masculine energy according to Zuckerberg in organizations. So how far fetches Margaret Atwood's vision? Is something closer and closer now? You

Wema Hoover: know, honestly, you know, I don't know how it is far fetched, but you know what they say, you know, reality is always stranger than fiction. Right? And so you have these things, but but again, you know, I wanna say that in any society, United States, you know, in The US and even abroad where we actually had other pundits that did not get, you know, I when I was living in France, I mean, you know, Marie Le Pen was was, you know, I was there during the election with Emmanuel Macron and she's not as dissimilar to to, our current president. But I do think that you have factions of opposing ideologies and political stances that are always at the fringes. Right? Because again, I go back to what I said earlier, there is a thought that difference equals loss. Difference equals, you know, there is, you know, a sense of change or hijacking what an entitlement that I believe that I have. You know, but I also do believe that, you know, this is a moment in time. And I think what is happening here, especially in United States, there is a reckoning, right? Because those who may have voted for the current administration did not realize just the kind of massive, not only changes, but dismantling that would happen that would affect their own backyard, you know, from an education system, from an immigration system, you know, from an access in social security. So I do think that there is this almost like, still reality that, wow, this is not what I signed up for. And, you know, because of that, you know, my hope, and I am encouraged that there will be more, you know, people that would stand up as we look at the midterms coming up and looking at the expectations that we have for our, you know, political leaders who represent us to actually put them in action. And that's to say, hey, you know what? We need to have people who understand not only my issues, but can actually create, a society of law and order, which feels like we don't have we which we don't have anymore. People have drawn

Joanne Lockwood: parallels with, nineteen thirties Germany, '19 twenties, '19 thirties Germany, where the incumbent administration dismantled the protection mechanism in such a way that there was no one to stop them, and then a a momentum took place. And I think if you're not careful that this administration is now controlling the media. The, we realize how powerful social media is. Facebook X is a powerful outlet that drives opinion, and it would appear that the administration has implicit control over those of those. Necessarily. I I would absolutely

Wema Hoover: ascertain that the media outlets are giving a fair description of what is happening, and they are objectively challenging. I mean, even in the press rooms and even in the White House briefings, even in the news and the, as they have, if they could not, if they did not, I mean, they, they have to, because these are things that are accessible to the public, you know, the executive orders, gross negligence in some, in some instances, gross negligence, any confidence that is happening, they have, and it has been recorded really accurately and, and on those platforms. So I can't say that there is not like this shield that we are all putting at, you know, kind of putting up on us that we're not able to understand and know what's really going on. Oh, no. It's quite the opposite. It's almost like it's too much. We get all of the reality, but it is happening so fast and so daily that you almost get overwhelmed and it makes you have, you know, this feeling of helplessness, which, you know, may be a tactic that you're like, it's happening so fast. What can I do? And that's where I say, you know, we talked in the green room around, you know, the daily, the need for people daily to really wake up, understand, and be very thoughtful about the information they're taking in, how they're kind of making meaning of it. And then how are they kind of orienting themselves through meditation, through prayer, through whatever, through yoga, wherever, you know, kind of vehicle you use to ground yourself to do that. That is so important. And more important to where you have the opportunity to make those changes, have those micro behaviors, like in the area and the communities and environments that you are immediately in. Because although that's happening at a macro level, I can say the community level, people want to hold those values. People not only hold those, they believe them. We are we are entrenched in them and not gonna let them know. Will we see another George Floyd? Maybe if

Joanne Lockwood: not black American, maybe Hispanic Americans. Will we see another uprising due to some significant injustice that lights the barricade? Will we see something erupt, do you think? I pray that

Wema Hoover: we don't. And that is my deep and and solemn prayer that we don't because that was horrific. And it was a time that and I wasn't even living in The United States at the time when that happened. I was still living in France. And I can tell you that it reverberated across the ocean, the continents. And in my role, I was leading diversity, equity, inclusion at the time and had all the global markets. Every market felt that. I don't, I would not pray for that, but I what I would would pray is that, you know, there is, an awakening and a veil lifted that, you know, it is not I don't I don't I don't even wanna say it's around diversity, equity, inclusion. I wanna say that it it is, you know, around this, fear of, you know, that different people, gender, sexual orientation, race are, you know, able to have opportunity and able to take positions and make effective change so that that this world and this country can literally be a place where everybody can thrive. And, you know, that is where there's a fear. There's a fear that, you know, when you look at the demographic census, you know, of United States, particularly of, you know, how, you know, people of color, you know, will continue to be the growing majority if you look at the ten, ten to fifteen years out. And that fear is driving that 100%. And so it's masked in diversity equity inclusion, it's masked in, you know, xenophobia, it's, it's masked in, you know, misogyny, all any, you know, all the isms that you can think of, but that is the reality. But again, you know, I, I, I don't, you know, prescribe to the fact that it is dismal and we are not without hope or not without action because action is, is happening. We, we have federal judges and actions being taken to thwart it. But it, but I also think, again, like I said before, it, it has to come for each individual really imparting change within the community and the environment that they're in with organizations really aligning, you know, their efforts to their mission, their purpose, their kind of employee value proposition to their customer and, and, and, and client centricity, how they understand them. That has, it has to get back to the roots of why were you doing this in the first place? And those organizations that did not define that or never had that though, those strong roots to begin with, they're the ones who are backing off because it was not, it was not solid and anchored solidly in any type of fabric of why they were doing it. And so this is where, you know, I'm reporting and really, really, really encouraging others to stand and take action. So what what disenfranchised everybody to the

Joanne Lockwood: point where they need to vote in this way? Because my my understanding again from this side of the pond is that, women, people of color, Hispanic, Latino, black communities, all voted or large enough numbers for this administration. What disenfranchised them from from the what was there before? There was must must be some reason why people were hanging on. I wanna vote for better. What was better they were expecting? Yeah. And so I'll preface it by saying I'm not a

Wema Hoover: political strategist, although I I do think I understand, you know, and influence it, but, but, you know, from my perspective and when you look at the poll numbers, it wasn't that people voted for something. I think the problem is we had a lot of people who didn't vote at all. I think that there were a lot of assumptions that I'm not gonna, I'm gonna sit this one out. You know what I, this, this will never take place. You know, this administration will never get voted in and I'm just gonna let the politics go as it were, it was because there has been too many, too many kind of fractions back and forth. And I'm not wholly happy with, you know, the democratic party. I'm not wholly happy with the Republican party, but this will never happen. So it wasn't a vote for. It was, you know, a large, large, which is like, like a third or third of people who just didn't show up at all. Yes. So that that is the reality. And it wasn't a landslide at all. It was probably the least, I think. And again, I'm not a political strategist, but from what I I've read and I've known, you know, from the debriefs of the election was, the election that, you know, this party has won by the least margin in the past, I don't know, 10 to 12 elections. So it wasn't, it wasn't overwhelming. It was that group that just didn't come out because there was assumption that this would never happen. Kind like what we talked about with the handmaid's tale. This would never happen, and, oh, boy, will were we wrong. Well, that's

Joanne Lockwood: what I wanted to say, actually. And the their their hypothesis was we were being too complacent for the rights we'd had, the life we were having. And it's now woken the world up, or certainly the Western world, to the fact that if you if you don't make a stand, you don't speak out, then you will get you will get change that you don't like. So every vote counts. Yeah. Yes. Not taking a stand and that complacency

Wema Hoover: was absolutely the nail in the coffin for us. And I do think also there was just a kind of genuine assumption that that can never happen in our country again. We would never regress back to the time where every person is not seen, centered, and and and feels like they can have, a part of the American dream, and we are. And so it was, you know, kind of not on voting for. It's like, you know, I'm gonna let the politicians and the folks do. I'm gonna just sit out. And then it was a shoot. It was the largest amount that we've had in many, many elections of people who just didn't show up. Why won't we

Joanne Lockwood: I I appreciate I'm pushing you out of your lane here a little bit into the political commentaries. Let me let me try and swerve you back into the comfort zone lane where you can talk about stuff. What I'd what I'd like to do is talk to our listener out there who's listening in, who's probably, in HR, in DEI, EDI themselves. Maybe they're in large company or small company. In in this time where not just in The US, it's it's a pushback in the yeah. The anti work there's the anti DEI or EDI in The UK is being pushed back as well. People do in their in their businesses right now. And if if your list if your listeners is your company, what should company be doing at this time to either ensure that their their people feel level of psychological safety or actually keeping their business focused on what's important in the face of all this negativity? Yeah. That's

Wema Hoover: a great question, Joanne. And I and, you know, what I think the most important thing is for organizations, to really go back to their values. Why are they focusing on and why do they value, and it is important to them, diversity, equity, inclusion, and really connected to not only what they do, but how you do it. Right? And the way that you do it, how does it ensure that you are creating a psychologically safe, inclusive environment that people can be their best and bring their best? People cannot bring their best if they're in hostile environments, if they feel that they are not going to be tacked on or being able to contribute because of who they are or what their authentic, their authentic selves. And how does it actually support your strategic imperatives, your business imperatives? How is it actually integrated into your purpose and your values and your mission? And if your mission is really around serving a client, a customer, or really providing a product that serves everyone for you not to have inclusion for you not to have, a value of diversity, for you not to harness those, those insights and the ways of working that allows you to have culturally relevant ability to connect with the people that you serve is going to not allow you to be successful. Right? And that is what I'm encouraging organizations to get back to. In addition, I think in this environment, it is also important to have a very pragmatic and practical approach, which is really looking at, you know, your talent and your systems, right? Because what you don't want to do is actually expose yourself to kind of any retaliation or area for the, for the government, the federal government, particularly if you have a federal contract, you won't be expected to adhere to that standards is by looking at your, your systems and making sure that in this environment, you don't really drive with quotas. Right? You don't have a number, but you still have the processes and, and the, the, systems in place to, to address bias, to address inequities. Because at the end of the day, what you're trying to do is really make sure that you create an environment where it is meritocracy, where it is the best and the bright brightest, but you're not leading with a number, a quota, or, you know, any type of incentive with putting people in. And, you know, the, the interesting thing and the irony of it is that that is the whole intent of DEI. It's just to de bias and open up access so that you can get the, the best and the brightest because it was not allowed before because people really just hired, tapped into, promoted people based on likeness and familiarity. And so that is what I, you know, encouraging HR professionals, DEI professionals, and most, you know, to be honest with you, CEOs and executives in these organizations to really buckle down down on and focus in this time. Yeah. Because I think

Joanne Lockwood: people misunderstood equity in all these these conversations. And and there's always also you know, I always get a bit wild when people just shove the meritocracy in my face and say, well, the best person should get the job. Well, we know that equity is important to ensure the best person does get the job given the fact that not everybody has the same start line. 100%. And that's what's missing from this

Wema Hoover: comp the the the this narrative that's being reported right now. Right? And that's what the whole system was designed to do is to give everyone the opportunity, not only to start, but have continual access. Because we know that, you know, equity is challenged at every rung from the academic, you know, through the hiring, through the development, through the promotion. So at every rung, there are biases. There are systemic processes and obstacles and barriers in place. And this is what these systems are designed to do. Not to give preferential treatment or choose a particular person or background or gender, but it's to making sure that you have access and those, regardless of the difference, have have access. So the best and the brightest can shine.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I sorry. My brain just froze. I had a question ready to come out, and it just put disappeared. And it's you're so right. One thing that I've I've found when I'm talking to people is that there's this perception. If you hire for diversity, you'll hire for second best. So, again, this this anti equity, this this pro meritocracy argument is you must be of this demographic or your second best. And that's the narrative that seems to be very pervasive amongst people with privilege, for whatever better way of describing it. That is

Wema Hoover: so true. I mean, it is essentially today that that is the narrative that they are purporting, that it is second best, and then that you are not getting, the quality of hire or the talent. When, if you really dig into it, I mean, honestly, if you look at the research, you will see that those that have the diverse background are usually overeducated, overqualified, and probably have, you know, more than whatever the experience is having. But again, because they don't have the affinity, they don't have the likeness, they don't have the, the commonality from a pedigree or, you know, like a social economic status or, you know, an educational, they don't have access. And, and this is what it, what is really, you know, kind of interesting is because it is propaganda. Right? Propaganda is like where you just kind of put a marketing and you don't have any evidence to prove it. But in fact, it's evidence against this, you know, which is the reality, which is, you know, why I think it's so important for organizations to not only, tap into a leverage it, but also now create their own, you know, kind of truth telling, create their own success stories and start communicating it. Like how, when they have done it, they've been able to kind of tap into, to new markets. They've been able to leverage talents that, you know, were maybe not the prototype or the archetype of what they have been used to. And really talk about the benefits and a value that organizations have, have been able to achieve because of that. This is where you gotta gotta establish your own value proposition and do some historical digging and really putting that forward and amplifying that. Because that is the only way that you will challenge something that, you know, a lot of people wanna believe because to your point earlier, it will justify them rising so hard against it to protect their own privilege. So we've seen big companies. I mean, McKinsey

Joanne Lockwood: is a great example of one of the perpetrators, if you want, or proponent of DEI as a business imperative. You know, they they make a lot of money as selling their statistics and their consulting around, you'll be x percent more this and y percent better this and z percent better this if you do this, this and this. It's that easy. Every company would be x percent better this and y percent better that and z percent better this, But that's not happening. Are are people missing the point of these initiatives, or they're not implementing the well, or they they go into them with the wrong objectives? Goes on because they spent billions on DEI initiatives, And we're not we're not more successful as a result. Where's where's the disconnect? Well, first, I wanna challenge that a

Wema Hoover: bit. I don't think that there is no evidence, around that. And I also wanna challenge the, you know, the thought that there's billions being spent on DEI. These are not DEI. DEI is, is a business strategy. It is a talent program. It is accessing. And so what is being labeled and what and how you put it, it's not a DEI program with with that, that has it on. No. These are, good talent strategies, effective employee engagement efforts. These are customer segmentation, which is a, you know, a really tried and true marketing strategy and customer centricity. These are not DEI strategy. And this is a part of the false narrative that has actually being actually purported. That these are just, no, these are good business practices. That's it. And like every other business practice, you have a strategy, you have imperatives and you have actions to drive them. And like every other strategic imperative, you have people who do them well and actually are maximize and get the benefit of it and the value of it. And you have folks that don't, that don't do it well because they don't believe in it or they want to keep, you know, the status quo. And, I would actually go soft prior to say if they do that, perhaps their growth and their ability to achieve is thwarted and is not as grown as much. So I, I wanna make sure that when we talk about it, we don't put a label on something that is good business practices and that, you know, those that are kind of sharing and, and promoting this misinformation, are saying is D I. No, these are good business practices before there was a title or there was a label of DEI. These were still in existence because it is known from organizational psychology and assistance approach that when people are in an environment where they feel safe, they feel included, they have the ability to be themselves. They perform the best. When you understand, you know, and have an ability to connect with your customer or client, in a culturally relevant, socioeconomic relevant and a racial or gender that you're trying to serve them. If you do that well, you're able to understand them, connect to them and maximize that customer experience. These are not DEI pro. These are good business strategies that now have been hijacked and have been mislabeled to purport this divisive and racist, I will go say, agenda that it is us against them. It's not. These are just good business strategies. So if those are good business strategies,

Joanne Lockwood: what are the toxic DEI labels that we need to, shed then? What's what's this clear? What what are we getting confused with? What do you mean toxic DEI? Well, the d I d I d I is being labeled as as toxic. It's been labeled as wasteful. What you're just saying, I think, I completely agree with, is that all these initiatives are sound business strategies. So what you're saying is DEI is a sound business strategy. It just happens to have got a three letter acronym, which what we should be doing is focusing on what you're talking about here is better hiring, a better well-being programs, better opportunities, better alignment with your customers, which is what we're saying. The it's being mis misinterpreted as something else. And this is we're talking about this this against the meritocracy is or the the equity. These are these are the kind of words that have been branded as, as as toxic, if you like. Whereas, really, they're they're they're they're they're actually part of sound business practice. Yeah. I I wouldn't

Wema Hoover: say they've been branded. I think they've been hijacked. And what I'll do is give those labels to those that are, again, misinforming, mislabeling, and are purporting just falsehoods. And so, I'm not going to even acknowledge them as they're not. Because at the end of the day, like I just, you said, these are good business strategies. And when we talk about DEI, what we are actually informing is that, hey, these business strategies do allow you to have diversity, equity, inclusion. That's the outcomes. But the practices, the strategies, the efforts, the, to be honest, all of that is business strategy is the same. You would happen to get it when you do that well, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Now there are, you know, those that we had, I mean, with admissions, college admissions that you are looking intently at, you know, righting wrongs and which we have seen through all modern societies and common societies in terms of, looking at past transgressions against, communities of people. We have been a native Americans here in The United States that have, you know, received, you know, protected lands and they have, you know, special tax practice because they were the, you know, original inhabitants of The United States. And so we have those practices, but what we're talking about, I will not, acknowledge or agree that those are, you know, toxic labels. They're not, those are peep, those are labels that have been hijacked and are being misinformed. It's not. These strategies are business strategy, effective strategy, business strategy that have been in place by the way, for decades and decades and decades, that happened to have also a great outcome of diversity, equity, inclusion, which happens to be very sound strategies and tactics to have strong workforce, you know, of, of, of, of inclusion, of, of, perspective ideas and a wonderful opportunity to understand segment and meet the needs of your market just happens to be, which is also inclusion. So I, you know, reject them and, and, and don't believe and will not say that those are toxic. It's not, it's the people that are using and hijacking them, to create and push this false, narrative that are are using that. Everyone else, I I would say, most of the people understand and and and know that, that that is not the, that, that is not the case. I think, people put too much emphasis on hiring

Joanne Lockwood: and not enough emphasis on creating strategies for retention.

Wema Hoover: Creating strategies for retention. You know what? And that is, to be honest with you, that has, that has always been, you know, quite the challenge, right. Is that, you wanna show the impact of your efforts by being able to bring, you know, folks of all backgrounds in so that you can truly tap into like, you know, whole innovation idea creation. But the, the reality is, and, and I'll say that we are feeling it here in society as well. Right. It's an organization society. If you don't create the conditions for these individuals to feel like they can contribute, to get their ideas leveraged, to know that there's expectations for them to succeed, they won't. What will they do? They will shut down. They'll become paralyzed, and they will work in an environment that is hostile and that you're not able to tap into their best or their brightest. Right? And we, you know, we've seen this evident and particularly in The United States and been many times during the trend big transition. For example, after the pandemic, you know, you had a lot of women that were, you know, doing, working internally, you know, at organizations and kind of even though they were working remotely, but they still had this, you know, huge responsibility of being caretakers for the home. And they, you know, they, experienced extreme burnout, extreme burnout. And so what happened? We saw the largest increase of female entrepreneurs after that period. Like they just opted out of the corporate spare. And so I'm gonna go on my own because I wanna be, you know, the architect of my life and really have this work life integration as a center. You know, most of this thing is balanced, but integration of the center. And I think, you know, this is what is where kind of we're seeing evidence now is that if you're not working, working and focus just as much on retention and the conditions that all employees can be able to contribute, then that will that may be the result that not only don't tap into talent, but they may just kind of exit, choose not to, you know, be a part of the corporate environment, and are going to another opportunity in another organization or go on their own. So let's let's talk to some

Joanne Lockwood: of our listeners who are working maybe for smaller companies. I mean, you you got a lot of experience in the the larger multinational four did you say four two five hundred? And I'd like to say the maturity level of those organizations is likely to be better than the midsize and the small medium companies. What should CEOs of small and medium companies, CHROs, c suite people be thinking about as their top priority? Taking the DEI label apart, going back to the sound business strategy, is it if you've got a kind of starting point, where where should they start? Yeah. I

Wema Hoover: I absolutely would recommend they start with, you know, what are the cultural conditions? You know, the organizational culture. You know, what are those, behaviors that are being endorsed and communicated and upheld? And what are those behaviors that are toxic, are divisive, and that may, you know, impact you being able to really have your workforce and your talent be in a safe, welcoming psychologically, a safe environment to thrive. So looking at and focusing on the culture. And then again, really standing on how do you reinforce that and create your own narrative and your own value proposition of why you're focusing on it and what the impact it has had. What is the impact on, you know, the employee engagement being made with the workforce talent? What is the impact on your, your business? And I think by doing that, you really quell the noise outside And it's easier to have alignment, you know, from your leaders, your managers, your HR, and for the employees to understand that I'm in working in service of something greater than myself, that this organization is focusing on this. And this is the reasons why I am expected to behave, to work, to interact, to have those connections with my colleagues and also to our customer and clients. But in fact, doing that, it really allows the outside to be silent and that everyone knows when they walk through those doors, regardless of what's what's happening in society, that this is the expectation set for them. I I hear a

Joanne Lockwood: lot a lot of people I see a lot of people on LinkedIn. You know, it's quite a common topic of, of DEI stroke HR burnout where people are getting really frustrated. I mean, talk about the current world climate or the current US centric climate at the moment being very, very anti DEI, whatever it may be. How can people in those positions keep on keeping on, if you like, in the face of negativity, rejection. If you're a person of color, you're black, you know, a black woman trying to advocate for these roles, and there's this pervasiveness in society saying, this is all wrong. It must be quite quite tough psychologically at the moment to to keep going, wasn't it? Yeah. And I don't think that there's a there

Wema Hoover: I think that there are there's a lot of people from the mountains joining anti DI, but I I've seen so many that have stood up and really champion and say that we're not here, not today. And you did and you're on on the across the pond in Germany. I was really happy to hear, you know, when JD Vance went to space, speak and, and, and really tried to purport, you know, the, and I forgot, forgot the name of the, at the political party, but the chancellor of Germany said, we're not going backwards. That made me feel pride. And that's what we need to be talking about when we talk about the entity and I, and then also those that are expressly and deliberately not embracing that. And there we are seeing that quite significantly. I mean, we see Emmanuel Macron as well, kind of stand up and, and say, you know, this is really interesting, crazy things happening over there, but we're gonna kinda double down here. But the burnout is real. And the burnout is one that, I would say is coming because you have the HR practitioners, you have those who, you know, still work or continue to work in DEI, as well as, you know, just the everyday managers. I don't wanna take them out because they are the curators of the culture and the work environment for employees to, to work in. There's burnout there. And it's because, you have, like, this multifaceted challenge that you have to kinda manage. You know, how do you keep your employees engaged and you keep them motivated as well as understand that there's different attitudes, beliefs that are pervasive in the workplace because they come from society. Right. And how do you make sure that you're aligning yourself so you can bring the best and actually have the conditions so people can feel like that they can contribute and thrive. And one of the things that, you know, I, I say it is so important is around getting the space to do that coaching, that advisory, advisory, to your leaders right now. You know, really that is so important because the leaders need to make meaning for themselves and be able to sit with whatever their personal opinions, their affiliation is outside, but what is needed inside the organization and why. And I think that executive council and coaching, if you will, is so imperative right now because that connection in terms of what impact it has on the culture, the work, the, the pulse of the organization, the ability for your, organization to continue to be productive, aligned, still have, you know, the spirit and energy to drive performance or to get stuck in this, you know, cycle of reactionary responses that produce, you know, no good or no impact. And so, you know, my recommendation during this time, it's really to kind of work with your leaders, doing the council advisory and also at the same time, creating spaces for your employees to share and to, you know, really acknowledge what they are experiencing, what they're going through and what is really happening, you know, within the walls of their companies so that they can address those things from a micro level and a macro level. And, you know, it is a tough time, so I'm not gonna mask it and say that it's, it's gonna be easy, but I think doing those two things, you could at least understand the pulse and get an understanding of the pulse of what's happening. But then it also, you know, really walk with and sit with your, leaders to help shepherd them because they have just as much challenge and, and, and, and work to do to not only make meaning, but to show up in a way that'll allow their organizations to continue to perform and not be paralyzed or spin during this crazy moment that we're in.

Joanne Lockwood: Moment that we're in. I love that as a as a sound bite. How long's the moment? This probably this probably be the longest moment ever. It's, but I suppose in in terms of the, the Earth's history, this is just a, microsecond in in the billions of years we've been going, and I'm sure it'll just be in in the in the billions of years to to come, it will just be insignificant. So we'll hope I hope you're right. I hope we look back at this and, laugh about do you remember that crazy time in 2025? And and, and, yeah, when the world had a a bit of a reset. But then I suppose we survived COVID. You know, the world, we never predicted that, a global pandemic could, could wipe us out in the way it did, and we didn't react in the way we did, and things would change so much. This is Maybe this is just an another pandemic. It's just man made. It's not the world.

Wema Hoover: I wanna make sure that we're clear. This is not the world. It's not the

Joanne Lockwood: world. These are, you know, I I I I purport them to, you

Wema Hoover: know, people with pan pots and pans that are just, you know, making noise, but they're doing that. It's not the world. I think that, you know, we have just as much or maybe even more, you know, folks, you know, here in the in The United States and across the world that don't want to go back to those times and that are doing amazing work to make sure that they stand on their values. They stand on the opportunities and, you know, the benefits that has gained. So I think we all should embrace that. And, again, start with those micro behaviors that you can do in your own environment, right, in your own community because that that's where change is really made. Yeah. Just doubling down on what you're saying earlier, this this is

Joanne Lockwood: is sound business sense we're talking here. We're talking about sound business sense Yes. Aligning with customers, showing your your colleagues, your staff, your people around you feel a sense of belonging, sense of inclusion, pressuring effort, all the things we know that happen when people are feeling the magic. Tapping into wide talent pools through our hiring strategies. We're we're picking from a global market now with online resources, everything. We're truly finding the best people and making sure we get the tools in order to be heard and seen, have that voice. That's that's all we're talking about here, isn't it? That's all. That's all. Let's let's you know what? We can just

Wema Hoover: get rid of the label or, like, have a label because this is just good business business strategies. And those that are working, you know, and I would like to say like the the Jamie Dimons of the world, we have so many CEOs are stepping up and basically saying the same thing are not letting the rhetoric stop them or put fear in them. And and that's what we need to stand behind and and emulate.

Joanne Lockwood: Emma, I've I've loved this conversation. It's been absolutely fascinating. How could people get hold of you? Because you you've got so much to say, and it's it's fascinating even when I pushed you out of your lane a little bit. So how can people get hold of you? Well, thank you, Joanne. This has been a such a an

Wema Hoover: engaging, discussion and and and and and quite thought provoking. So you can get in contact with me. I'm at w w w dot wemahoover dot com. And once you go in there, you could actually just go, bwwbelimitlesscom.com is my business consulting strategy, where you can get to and access through wemahoover.com as well. I'm on LinkedIn. And so I also have a lot of articles that I have written for various publications. You can check out my article and position on many of these topics as well. And on Instagram, I'm Wema Hoover. And, I look forward to not only continuing this dialogue, but Joanna, I look forward to seeing what you do. I think that the work that you're leading is so important and these open, honest dialogue is really what help people learn. I think we gotta get in these days, we have to get away from the corporate speak and get to really the essence of how people are thinking, feeling, and what they can do, like what's in there. So I thank you for all you do. Bye, Emma. Thank you.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.