--- title: "The Power Of Honest Storytelling" episode: 160 date: 2025-05-22 guest: "Nick Elston" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/160-the-power-of-honest-storytelling audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-160/audio.mp3 --- # The Power Of Honest Storytelling Joanne Lockwood is joined by speaker and coach Nick Elston to explore what honest storytelling can unlock—for individuals, audiences, and workplace conversations that are often hard to have. Nick shares how lived experience of obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety, burnout, and a breakdown shaped his relationship with speaking, and why telling the truth without a filter can build trust and connection. Together they discuss the emotional cost of repeatedly telling a personal story, the need to let narratives evolve over time, and how to communicate with vulnerability without getting trapped in the past. The conversation also examines inclusion in challenging environments: asking better questions, navigating fear of saying the wrong thing, and how authenticity can disrupt echo chambers. Joanne reflects on her own journey, including her trans history, what it meant to come out, and why being present in “toxic” spaces can still matter if it reaches those open to another perspective. Listeners will come away with practical ways to think about sharing their story with boundaries, focusing on the value to the audience, and using authenticity as a catalyst for connection, belonging, and positive change. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Living Beyond Historical Narratives - 07:27 — Sharing Stories: Value Over Experience - 11:59 — Amplifying Voices, Bridging Gender Gaps - 17:21 — Resilience and Sensitivity in Toxic Spaces - 24:30 — Protecting Mental Health of Advocates - 29:33 — Reframing Disability and Self-Perception - 33:08 — Obsessive Compulsive Patterns and Anxiety - 41:03 — Engaging Others Despite Challenges - 47:03 — Reassurance and OCD Journey - 51:25 — Audience Perspective Shapes Story Value - 54:09 — Evolving Stories - 59:17 — The Power of Emotional Storytelling ## Key takeaways - How embracing vulnerability in storytelling builds trust and deeper human connections within professional environments. - The dynamic nature of personal stories, and why continually evolving narrative ensures authenticity and sustained impact. - Strategies for using lived experience as a catalyst for education, empathy, and organisational transformation. - Techniques for managing the potential emotional toll of sharing difficult stories, such as reframing the narrative and maintaining personal boundaries. - The necessity of cultivating spaces where uncomfortable questions can be safely asked, promoting dialogue and reducing the fear of “getting it wrong” in inclusion work. - Recognising the universality of belonging as a cornerstone for inclusion, regardless of background or identity marker. - Why challenging conversations—both in and beyond the workplace—are essential for moving from superficial diversity exercises to genuine cultural change. ## FAQs ### What is meant by “honest storytelling” in the context of inclusion and belonging? Honest storytelling involves sharing one’s personal journey, challenges, and breakthroughs with authenticity and vulnerability. On this episode, Nick Elston explains that speaking without a filter and turning vulnerability into a tool can foster trust and forge deep connections within professional and personal spaces. The focus is on narrating lived experiences in a way that connects with others, sparking empathy and understanding. --- ### How can personal stories help drive inclusion in the workplace? Sharing authentic experiences allows individuals to find common ground, creating a bridge of trust. Joanne and Nick highlight that when people courageously open up, others often feel inspired to share their stories too, which breaks down barriers and promotes a sense of belonging. Storytelling transforms hidden struggles into widely understood issues, supporting a culture where diverse voices are heard and valued. --- ### How do you balance authenticity with emotional wellbeing when sharing vulnerable stories? Nick describes the importance of ensuring one speaks from a place of “the scar, not the wound.” Storytellers should be mindful of their emotional state, ensuring they are not retraumatising themselves by repeatedly recounting painful events. He suggests viewing one’s story as an evolving narrative, adapting as the storyteller grows and learns, ensuring both authenticity and emotional safety. --- ### Why is it important to make your personal story relevant to the audience? Both speakers acknowledge that audiences are ultimately interested in what value a story brings to them. Nick advises narrators to shift from simply reeling off life events to focusing on the impact, learnings, and practical takeaways for listeners. Framing stories from a third-person perspective (think Morgan Freeman narrating your life) can help create emotional distance while highlighting the broader significance. --- ### Can repeated storytelling risk trapping someone in their past? Yes, both Joanne and Nick observe that without care, repeatedly telling the same origin story can anchor you in history and prevent personal growth. To avoid this, continually update your story to reflect your evolving understanding and to focus on how past experiences inform present actions and future aspirations. --- ### Do all people respond positively to personal stories about difference? Not always. Nick and Joanne discuss the reality of resistance or even hostility, particularly in professional or less inclusive settings. However, they assert that many who are initially sceptical or distant can become the most engaged, often approaching privately after a talk to share their own challenges. The act of honest storytelling itself builds credibility and opens doors to deeper connection. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 160 with the title, the power of honest storytelling. I like it. Absolute honor and privilege to welcome Nick Elston. Nick is a keynote speaker, a transformational speaking coach, and founder of Forging People. And he's dedicated to empowering individuals to embrace their voice, share their stories, and foster meaningful connections through authentic communication. When I asked Nick to describe his superpower, he said that it is turning vulnerability into a powerful tool for connection and transformation. Hello, Nick. Welcome to the show. Hey, Joe. It's great to be here. Thank you Nick Elston: for asking me. Yeah. And we were just chatting just now, and, Joanne Lockwood: we worked out that we'd, we both write for HR's own and ask how how we connected. Yeah. We do. Great Nick Elston: publication, and great to have met you along the way as well. 18, we worked out from the from the LinkedIn connection buttons. A long time in the making, but I sure will make this worth it. Joanne Lockwood: We'll figure it out. Yes. I I think back in the early days when I I just started in this field, I was clicking and connect on everybody that you can find. So, yeah, there's probably a Well, I'm gonna pop you a random button. Yeah. I now use AI tools too for me, so I don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Yeah. We've called this episode the power of honest storytelling and, you know, looking at your what you do and your superpower. How is the the storytelling being built for you, and what's the authenticity and the vulnerability? Yeah. Yeah. How do you use that as a strength? I think for me, Nick Elston: it comes from my own my own personal journey. So for context, the the nutshell version, I have mental illness. I have obsessive compulsive disorder, which largely is managed nowadays, but I developed it back in my childhood. And as I got older, left pretty much untreated because I am that old. It was wasn't something that was treated the way it would be now. It then morphed into something called generalized anxiety disorder or GAD. And as I got older, it started to kind of really take over my life. In my professional career, I was running for around a decade at a really high state of burnout. And then I had a breakdown in 02/2012. And it was at that point I started to use speaking as a therapy. And what I found was, being able to share your experiences and your story and your thoughts and your insights. And bearing in mind, I did this initially in a professional environment. We didn't do that in 02/2012. What I found was, despite what you hear on the news and popular media and social media, humans are essentially good. Go figure. Who knew? Humans do wanna support you if you only tell them what you need. And what I found was by sharing my experiences with them in a, again, in a professional environment, people started sharing their stuff with me. And I think for me, that's kinda where I learned that speaking without the filter, speaking with authenticity and vulnerability, and why has that been hugely hijacked since, to be fair? It builds a bridge of trust and connection and depth with people far more than any superficial message were ever trained to deliver in professional environments for sure. That's where it started for me. I started to speak more and more about my experiences. The rooms got bigger. The audiences got bigger. I started to travel the world doing this stuff, and the rest, they say, is history. But along the way, and in this spirit of honesty, you can only spend so long speaking about your story, especially professionally when it really took off before your story starts to own you again. And that's when I started to coach other people to share their stories. And that's really what's thrown me into the world that you operate in, into the realm of other people's experiences and how we can be defined by those stories as a negative force, or actually we they can be a catalyst for positive change, and that's where it started for me. I hear you what you're saying there in terms of Joanne Lockwood: if you keep telling that story, it becomes all of you. If you don't care for it, you end up living in the past because often these stories are historical. And there's a an old adage, isn't it? You speak from the scar, not from the wound, so you have to be kind of in a good place to talk about it. Yep. But I I go through phases of of telling my story, my journey, my canon, if you like, you know, where I came from and how I'm who I am, who I am. And over time, if you're not careful, it it does. It drags you back ten years. And sometimes it's hard to remember the story of the inaccuracy, so you have to use a facsimile of your story that is relevant to the audience without necessarily being the whole truth and nothing about the truth. A good illustration, and you're pulling out key points, aren't you? So You're That's the challenge for people, I guess. It is a challenge. And don't get me wrong. I still very much Nick Elston: use my platform, whether it be from the stage or from writing, as therapy. It makes HR people very nervous, but it's very real. I will share what's going through my head right now in front of a live audience. I think it's a really healthy thing. But that being said, as you say, actually, the further you come away from your story, your experiences, especially if it's a, it's a real kind of big, kind of powerful, impactful moment in your life, you do see it very differently. The context kind of changes. I think also because our lives have other parts and players as well. So when you first start sharing your experiences, you're kind of respectful of other people's thoughts on these things, that the story can impact other people. That changes too the more that we get used to being more vulnerable. I guess my rule of thumb on this is to treat your story as an evolution. So the same story that I told as therapy in 2,012 is the same story I get paid to speak all over the world delivering now. The one difference is it's changed with time. It's changed with me. It's changed with experiences, with learnings, with connections. So if we start to see our story as a work in progress, we're not constantly kind of reaffirming the story that we told initially. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: No. I I yeah. It it it's also hard to keep telling the it could be quite boring telling the same story. You take oh, here we go again. Here's my life. You know? I wanna spice it up a bit, or this time I'll put that in there. Sometimes it depends on who you're talking to and and why you're there and what they wanna hear, doesn't it? It does. And I think this Nick Elston: is the thing you see, that, no one cares as much as we think they do. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, that you could be the most exciting a list celebrity, but after fifteen minutes of talking to an audience, they're gonna wanna know what's in it for them. And I think that's kind of the thing, really, is you're when you're when you're telling your story, it's about it's about showcasing the value of your experiences, not just your experiences. So, for example, whether it's through mental illness, transitioning, whatever your experience has been in life, people don't really wanna be walked through those things, really. What they do wanna know is how did it impact you, how did it inspire you, how did it affect other people. They wanna have the experience of going through those challenges without having to relive the the bits that are already paying for in that sense. And I think once we start to do that, and I like to see it as if you were to write the story of your life, about 14 sides of a four is a fifty minute keynote. And 14 sides of a four is 14 chapters, 14 chapters as a book, a book as a business. You never know when this stuff goes. But a great exercise for all of your kind of viewers and listeners right now, write the story of your life. But I don't want you to write it from a first person perspective, not I did this and this happened to me. I want you to write it as if Morgan Freeman were narrating your life. And how cool would that be, by the way? So as if a narrator were were actually kind of speaking about you, then you start to see the value of your experiences to your audience, and that's for me, it's the difference. That also protects you emotionally as well. So many people decide to share their story, and it's so vulnerable, and it's so painful for that person to deliver it because they're not doing it from an audience perspective. They're doing it purely from a first person perspective. And I like that. And I think that tunes into something my nan used to tell me growing up that if everybody put their problems into the middle of the room, you'd end up picking your own back because you never know what other stuff what other stuff is going on with other people. And especially in professional environments because we mask it. How are you? Great. Thanks. How are you? Tell people to try telling people you feel rubbish. See how fast they run. Well, I think I've noticed in the, in the space, Joanne Lockwood: the EDI space, the speaking space, whatever, you know, where we both coexist, is that having a story or having a back you know, having a canon or whatever is an end to the club because I've realized that people have I'm far more willing to share their vulnerability, their their deepest secrets, their their pain points, everything, really authentically and really vulnerably because I I come with my own membership card to that club. I was, you know, in the past, you know, you you described yourself as a 47 year old white man at the beginning of this show or or just before we went online. I I was in that position thirteen years ago. I'm now a a 60 year old woman with a trans history and a previous existence. And in my old life, I didn't have a membership card to the vulnerability sort of power. Yeah. People would I I'd just be seen as a voyeur. But now I meet people, and I understand marginalization. I understand the frustration of not having access to things, being denied things, being picked on, being bullied or abused or whatever it may be. And I can relate to someone who is a person of color, black, some person with disability. Obviously, I don't have their story. I I have that empathy bridge where I can go, I get it. I get what you mean by vulnerability. They look back at me. They go, I know you get it. So that shared experience, isn't it? It Nick Elston: is. I think that the first ten seconds of any interaction with anybody, the two things that people strive for are commonality and community. Why are you like me? Even if you seem completely worlds apart, why are you like me? And what value is it gonna be for us to have this conversation, this talk, this keynote, whatever that thing is? I think that's a really important thing to master, and I think you're quite right. There is a there's a common thread between a lot of issues that we experience in life, whether it be mental illness or pronouns, identity, transitioning, race, culture, sexuality. There's so many things that make us diverse and varied in life. The common fact factor for me is belonging, And it's essentially kind of a big reason why I do what I do now is that it affects our sense of belonging enough to feel that we're marginalized enough to not have a platform, to not have a voice, to not feel that we can step up. So for me, belonging is a common thread in all this. People that have not always had the platform to speak. And we can break this down into even just into the the the man woman approach as well that why is it that Find Your Voice, the the conference that I run, that 80 to 90% are women, but then when we turn up at the conference events where it's stadium and conference hall events, still most of the speakers are 90% male. There are disconnects everywhere. And the only way that we correct disconnects is by stepping up, creating a platform, and finding our voices. So more power to your elbow, to the other people that speak about culture and race and sexuality and all these other things that other people need to know about. But I think there's a there's a real big fear that we are losing the ability to ask questions from those people as well. So people that are not through going through the experiences that other people have gone through, I think fueled by cancel culture and something we spoke briefly about before we hit record on this. I think we're really afraid of asking questions for the fear of being canceled or being ashamed or or just saying the wrong thing. And I think that's something we we need to maintain, the ability to ask better questions. I guarantee you that so much I don't understand in this world because it's just not been my experience. So you either blindly agree, not knowing what you're agreeing with, or you blindly disagree where all your old generational biases run wild. Both are equally damaging. For me, the bit in the middle is find people that have lived this, find people that know this stuff, and ask them for a genuine need to educate or to be curious. And I guarantee, Joe, I've not been punched once. So that's a good sign. There's thousands of conversations about where people that are not like me not been punched once. So that's my recommendation to everybody. I Joanne Lockwood: mean, I'm I'm I'm the first to admit I have an opinion on most things, but I also realized that my opinion isn't always safe. I appreciate that it's my opinion. And there are certain things I I don't want to have an opinion on, and it frustrates the the pajesus out of people. When I I say, I'm sorry. I don't really have an opinion on that. And they say, well, you must have an opinion. You must have thought. I said, well, I do have some biases. I have some stereotypes, and I have some stories I could tell you about it. But, really, I persuade me to give me give me your thoughts. I I don't have a strong enough view to wanna express it to anybody. I think what happens in the world at the moment is everybody is just feels licensed to express their opinions whether they're safe or not. I think you're right. I think there's it's the Nick Elston: reason I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Instagram. I'm not on Twitter stroke x, whatever it's called at the moment. I'm only on LinkedIn, and that's kind of where I hang out. Because of that very reason, I think there's so many platforms, which and it was interesting. There was a Harvard study done this many years ago that between 18 and 29 year olds, social media was the biggest source of anxiety. But in the same survey with the same demographic demographic from a mental health perspective, it was a bigger source of positive community for mental health. So, actually, it's not the platforms per se. It's our immersion, our engagement in those platforms. People don't immerse well. They will end up doomscrolling or feeling worse. And that's why I left in May 2020. I decided to leave social media. This was just after the pandemic and everything else, had started. And people that I knew for decades were falling out on a public timeline, and there were really strong opinions flying around everywhere. I thought, I'm out. If you pick up your phone and twenty minutes later feel worse, that's not a good place to be. And I never went back. And I still exist commercially and personally, which is a good thing. People think you don't exist if you're not on those things. But I think you're right. It gives people a platform to share opinions that okay. People are people are, I guess, entitled to an opinion. But it's how we decide to immerse in those things. If we feel sensitive about something, we will immerse ourselves in that thing, and we damage ourselves. Or the other effect is the echo chamber effect where we just surround ourselves with people like us and take that approach that you're either with me or against me kind of mentality, which to me, again, is equally damaging. So social media is an interesting one for sure. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'll take your opinion on something because, I don't know if you noticed but or realized, but I I I do some guest appearances on GB News, which is I did all know that. Yeah. Well, it's it's kind of as toxic as you as you get from a from a an EDI professional, from a trans woman's perspective. And people criticize me for feeding the beast, if you like. My my view is that if I'm not in the room, they can have that conversation anyway. Am I adding credibility to it being there, or am I taking the opportunity to say, hang on a minute. Here's another alternative opinion. And that's my view. So my my view is always go into the room, be a voice of alternative in a very measured, very balanced, very calm, very rational way just to counteract the myths because my rationalization is I'll I'll go anywhere toxic if I'm given a microphone and and and will be heard, even if I'm shouted down or abused while I'm on the stage, which has happened, just purely because there are people in the room who aren't hard right, hard left, hard ingrained, and they they're open to hearing a different view. And I think we we owe it to those people to give them another voice, and that that's that's why I do it. So I don't know if you you've ever been in that situation where you've, had to walk away. Firstly, I admire your strength and resilience Nick Elston: because in the spirit of honesty, the and, again, we spoke about it before for a publication I used to write for. It was it was an extremely kind of toxic forum to the extent of our post around mental health, and somebody would say, I don't believe in mental health. I mean, what the hell does that mean? I mean, that's all something we haven't got time to go through right now. But but it's, and I withdrew myself from that. So, actually, I I would say this was many years ago, but I admire your strength and courage to do that. I personally I would say, like, I'm a reformed people pleaser, but I still get quite sensitive. And I think because I've built a business that's based on me, my personal story and stuff, I'm quite sensitive to that. But I do agree there are environments that are, I would say, comparable to what you're doing, whereas I will go and work for a large organization, get asked to speak to their teams and staff. And I know they're doing it as a tick box exercise. I know there will be pushback. I know there will be people in that room that are usually and again, without stereotyping, but generally, it's true. It's the the kind of the the middle aged, or just older than me, maybe male suited, booted, arms folded at the back. They're gonna be the people that are gonna say we don't wanna engage in this stuff. But I'd like you were saying, I'd much rather be there affecting potentially one person than not be there at all. And I think that's that's the bit that you're doing brilliantly well is that you're actually staying in that space. But interestingly, those arms folded, middle aged white guys usually, will come up to be afterwards and be the first people to open up about their challenges. They don't wanna talk an open forum, but they very much wanna talk in a private format. But I think that comes from vulnerability as well that if you share your experiences and your insights and your stories unfiltered with honesty, you build trust and rapport with people instantly to the extent that I can walk in, and an hour later, I've got somebody opening up about their life experiences to me. It's an amazing thing. So I think that's where, again, my vulnerability rocks, and you will be impacting people by what you do on TV news. Yeah. And Joanne Lockwood: I echo what you're saying about the the arms folded people in the room. And I've I've had clients brief me beforehand saying, oh, you got this person, this person, and this person. They're they're really kind of hard to deal with, and, you know, they're gonna be really argumentative and pushback, doubting all this. Okay. That's fine. Is it you you know what I was? No. No. No. No. Because in my experience, what I found is, as you said, these people are the ones that wear change you know, you turn on lights. And I always frame my my training, my talking is I I'm never here to tell you what to do, what to think, what to say. That's for you. Change has to occur in you. All I wanna do is turn some lights on, push the button, and encourage you to think. And if that if you come away from it thinking that you don't agree with me, that's fine. I don't have to be right. I talk about perspectives and opinions, and I'm very honest to say that what I'm trying to do now is sell you my opinion. You have the right to choose to to adopt it or not adopt it. So I can't tell you to challenge your own views and opinions than by telling you mine. And you find that these people warm to you, and I'd say the the most the people you think are gonna be the most the toughest audience are actually the pussycats. Or if if they aren't entrenched, they do some of my job for me because they asked these pretty direct off off the wall questions. And the whole room's going, blimey. I'm glad I'm not I'm glad I'm more enlightened than they are. Yeah. And so sometimes they do my job for me by by coming out with those tough questions. But, no, I've always found that most people, as you say, set off by being kind. Nobody grows up or wants to be a dick. And, generally, they don't wanna look like a dick in the middle of the room. Exactly. And they do come up afterwards and say, thank you. I've really learned something. Because Nick Elston: you're talking about something which is either sensitive to them or something which even can be considered as a taboo. There's so much generational stuff that's been handed down to us as taboo. I mean, even things like grief. I mean, later on today, I'm running a webinar with a a counselor on on grief. And even with things like grief in the workplace, it's still taboo. Why is grief a a taboo element? And the only way that you tackle these taboos is what you're doing is you're going in, sharing a story, sharing experiences. And I love the fact that what you're saying is very much like myself. You're not solution focused in the way that you've got to do this. This is gonna help you. This is gonna fix you. This is gonna make you understand. You're giving people the ammunition to ask better questions of themselves. And I think that's where it stems from. As you say, nobody kind of grows nobody grows up as a clean slate with that intention to be a dick to people, but that's usually been handed handed down just a generational belief. And, also, it doesn't mean to say that they're wrong. It just needs to they need to change the way that they think and feel and understand other people's experiences and not like theirs. I have people sort of come up Joanne Lockwood: to me and say, I I I don't get trans. I don't get non binary. And I go, that's okay. I don't either. I don't understand. If I could explain it and bottle it, I could flog it, but I don't understand it. All I can do is rationalize and say, I just am. I don't understand what it's like to be transmasculine. I don't understand what it's like to be non binary because that's not my lived experience. I can tell you how I feel about me. You know? A sample size of one, I can't argue about whether it's right, wrong, indifferent I can't give you a medical explanation. All I can say is there's some sort of neurodivergence where my brain is wired, and this makes sense. I can't expect any further than that. So I think when people try and ask me to prove, I go, well, there is no proof. It it just is. Like many things, there's no How they kinda come to you kind of they come Nick Elston: to you to feel that, right, okay, prove me wrong, kind of mentality. It's like kind of very often if I take to the stage, like, they look at me like, okay, beardy boy, entertain me. Woah. Hopefully, I will, but that's not exactly what I meant, just to entertain you. I think it's but I think that's an expectation thing. And and also, I like to explore, and I like the dynamics of delivering at a mandatory session as opposed to one that people of of their food choice. That's an interesting dynamic twist as well. Because actually what you find is that you have to I used to run pubs and clubs back in the day, and I was always told to train in my security training, go for the biggest guy first. So I I kinda take that same same approach now to to audiences. So if there is that one Gobby one or the one that's shouting at you a day or the one that they aren't folded, I go for them first. Then kind of everyone settles down a little bit then. But the mandatory one makes me laugh so much because, actually, you can tell that they just don't wanna be there. They all be swerving at the fact that you're talking about such a personal experience because it's been an experience of them. Even a fan is certainly I was working with, American Express with their, diversity team a few years ago now. We were talking about this very thing that actually very often why people come into these roles of representing a section of society or section of humanity is because they have either experienced that directly or indirectly themselves. But by nature, you then become more sensitive to take on the burdens and the challenges of everybody else. So, actually, what it does, it increases the pressure on your own emotional well-being because you are flying the flag. So, actually, if you look at mental health champions, for example, that by the time they get home, they have not only supported themselves, but 20 other people, and that's before they even get home. Home is not always a good place. So I think that people like ourselves that are actually out there championing things, trying to create thought leadership and stuff, there's an element of we do need to be more selfish as well. We need to make sure that we protect our own energy before we put ourselves into those situations. And I think for me, that's why I know my kind of resilience threshold when it comes to pushback. I don't get that much, to be honest, but, I'm in true admiration of you, Joe, for having a a lot higher threshold to put yourself in these situations. I mean, just GB News generally, that's that is an amazing place for you to go into. I've got a tune in now. I've got, links. Joanne Lockwood: I I capture the video. I've recorded myself, and I've got I've got all the shows on. I've got I I got a greatest hits collection, and I actually you I did a speaker show reel for pride last year. Yeah. I clipped all of the intros. I'd like to welcome Joanne Lockwood. I'd like to welcome Joanne Lockwood. I had Jacob Rees Mogg. I had Al Widdicombe. I had, Patrick Christie's. I had all the kind of main presenters welcoming Joanne Lockwood, and I thought it was a great little, pride showreel intro. And then I posted you know, like, people post testimonials on their showreels. I posted all the testimonials from x, all the negative testimonials. I was like, who does this bloke think he is with that deep voice? This bloke is wrecking society. This bloke is killing our children. I posted those as Nick Elston: Some big old week, guys. On on my showreels. Joanne Lockwood: Because, you know, if if you're gonna dance for the devil, you you're gonna you're gonna get you're gonna hit your ass put. This is it. I I I'm trying Nick Elston: to understand that rational leap between transitioning and you are killing our children. Mutilating them, drugging them, ruining Joanne Lockwood: their their future, sterilizing them. Really? I I don't remember advocating with that. Friend of mine, Ollie, he's he's a Nick Elston: techie. So he he kind of thinks this way anyway. He's kinda very much lost in AI completely. But, he has this kind of phrase, if I say anything that people do that are just weird, he says people are idiots. So I will caveat that some people are idiots. And like I said, there's a lot of people that really don't deserve to have a voice, let alone find it. Well, the the Joanne Lockwood: thing is, you've got to respect the fact that people who we think are idiots don't think they're they're idiots themselves. You know, you you live within your own sense of self and your own echo chamber. I'm putting myself out of here, but Nick Elston: people saying that you're killing their children, that's a pretty idiotic move, to be fair. Well, the equation which is actually killing children, and a podcast would be a great way to come out with that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm Joanne Lockwood: advocating for it. I've had I've had people write me posted letters. They've somehow tracked me down, worked out where I live or my accountant, put a stamp on the envelope, and written it and and post it to me. And then, you know, oh, great. That's really lovely. Thank you. Or they find my email address, and I get it in my info box every so often. This is a kind of, yeah, this kind of hate mail. But, yeah, it's Interesting. The way I box it off is I treat it as graffiti. You know, you're driving through a rough part of town, and there's spray paint on all the walls, and it's got swear words. It's got this. It's got you go home, and you're this. And you just put your foot down and just keep driving. So as far as I'm concerned, all these concerts, they're just graffiti. They're not at me. They're just shouting at the world. I just happen to be the wall they're spraying it on. And they just wipe it off and go, well, you don't know me. Yeah. You've got no idea who I am. No fact in what you've said is so I can detach because it's not personal. They think it's personal, but it's not because it's it's sprayed on the wall as far as I'm concerned. Interesting. Can I ask you a Nick Elston: question? I appreciate it. This is your show. Yeah. No. No. That's what I have. I get curious, you see. Would you say that the biggest challenge, what to to you personally was actual the the decision to transition or the the announcing of that transition to family society and the muggles that are out there right now. And, again, I'm a big party lots of fans. I use the muggles very positively, by the way. Yeah. The the toughest thing was, I think, coming Joanne Lockwood: out to myself, so accepting and realizing who I and working out when it was necessary. So I always say that when it became necessary, it became necessary. Before it was necessary, it was manageable. So it was that point when it became necessary. And then at that point there, I didn't so much transition. The world had to. So I'm still kind of the eyes still see the same as everybody else, but it was my brother, other mother in laws, or my friends, or my reputation, or my career. Those are the people that I kinda got used to me. So, you know, you talk about we talk about the the social model or the medical model of disability, it's society that is the problem. And and for me, it was the world that had to realign its perspective of me, and all I had to do was just try try and keep being the best me I could so the world would align in the way I want it to realign around me and to shift it by one eighty or something. So, yeah, that that was the challenge. So coming out initially, I I did when I was drunk on Facebook. We talked about social media. So that kind of was ripping the sticky parts off pretty quick, and I then just woke up in the morning and then owned it. And, yeah, I simplify it, but that's that's that's the headline, the jovial kind of get the audience laughing type headline. But, yeah, my what what I realized very early on was the challenge wasn't me. It was the impact on my family, close family. That that was the hardest bit where I thought it was all about me, but, actually, I realized it wasn't it was all about everybody else. And they needed more help than I did. And, because you know, you see these things. You know? The first one is very good at this, you know, YOLO. If they're not with you, they're against you. You gotta get on with life and bugger them. If they're not up for it, you just walk away. It's toxic. And I can see people who've done who've taken that attitude, and they've they're walking alone. Whereas I I decide, well, I I didn't want to walk alone. I wanted to be selfish and have what I had. And when that's your objective, you take a different approach. Now I always say, in order to be liked, you have to be likeable. In order to be loved, you have to be lovable. In In order to be respected, you have to be worthy of that respect. And all that was I had the power in my in myself to be likable, lovable, and and worthy of respect. Not anybody else. Everybody else could then take me. I've used this depression several times, like, escape to where the puck is going, not to where it is. If that's where I wanna be, that's where I go ahead. And don't expect people to come to me and just accept me for who I was. So that that was the important lesson, but a lot of that was for the epiphanies and and realizations based on the feedback from my my wife, feedback from my daughter, especially, who who gave me a a bit of a a mental slap around the face and said wake up and smell the coffee. You're a dick. If you want us to see you differently, behave differently. Yeah. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I appreciate that. No. As we started diving a bit deeper, can I You mentioned your mental health challenges? You mentioned your OCD. OCD is a is a is a a term that's bathed around often. You you have people, oh, I gotta keep it there. Oh, it's my OCD. Oh, it's my OCD. Yeah. And, yeah, we obviously appreciate there's a difference between people stealing that phrase for for the just that they don't wanna move their pencil two inches. So I like it to have their pen sway and align with align with something. But on what you had, can you just tell me or tell the listeners, what is OCD Yep. From your perspective? I Nick Elston: think o so obsessive compulsive disorder. So OCD, I think much trivia managed due to channel four is OCD cleaners, as you say, or I'm a little bit OCD. It doesn't kinda work that way. It's very painful, frustrating condition. It's, so I developed at the age of seven, and I'm after witnessing a a family accident. And it was I think anybody's experienced any form of mental illness very often. It can be chemical, of course, but very often, it comes from a very severe action, produces a very severe reaction. So OCD is the ultimate pursuit of the uncontrollable. So how it manifested was I started to check gas, which is in sets of three, light switches in sets of three, locks in sets of three with that feeling of comfort is the desired outcome. But the other outcome was and it's the fear that drives you is that if I didn't do these things, I would bring harm or even kill my family because the the situation was family related. So therefore, it's kinda assumed protection of the family through going through these checks and measures, which sounds hugely irrational to to people that have not experienced that. But I think there's something in that. The rationality goes out the window when obsession and compulsion are thrown into the mix. So, so it's kinda like a routine you have to do, and it kind of it fuels high anxiety. So through education, into my kind of teams, I was fueled by high anxiety. I I think that's the kicker though, really, that you can you see this a lot in professional life, and I write, like, a lot about this in in kind of HR publications such as yourself and, that we can be highly successful and highly performing fueled by anxiety, but you can only run for so long until you stop, and therein lies the problem. I also think that it's taught me a lot about the way I speak, and like yourself in what you just said, I'm not solution focused. So, actually, I don't share what anxiety and and obsession compulsion is. I share what it does. So do you constantly ruminate on things that have gone wrong before, past relationships, past conversations, past decisions, and you replay them with a very real and very current feeling of guilt and remorse and regret. And what it does, it changes your narrative enough to start to then catastrophize what's to come. So, again, you wake up that feeling of fear and dread of everything that you're doing. It's all gonna go wrong. And I think that's why in my current life, and I focus so much on one thing, I don't coach presentation skills. That's not really my thing. What I coach is transformation through speaking. You change your narrative. You change your experience. But it came from OCD. And I think there's something in that and and from what you've brilliantly shared as well, Joe, that from ultimate chaos can come magic. From the biggest of adversities can come the most exciting things. But let's not beat around the bush here. Both of those things could have easily destroyed somebody as well. And I think there's something in that that you the same thing that can be the destructive force in somebody's life can also be the catalyst for positive change if we only use it in the right way. And that's why I focus so much on narrative. Because I think for me, OCD is fueled by negative narrative. It's fueled by high anxiety, but also there's a word I'm struggling for here, intrusive thoughts. Are you are you aware Joanne Lockwood: that it is a false belief? Are you aware that you you you're you're trying to doubt yourself all the time going, I know this is wrong, but I can't stop myself. Is it a feeling of powerlessness that you can't override it? Yeah. I think certainly Nick Elston: and it has to be said with professional help, certainly in later years. It actually makes you kinda question everything in that sense. I always say to people now, one of the best things we can do is set out on a mission to prove ourselves wrong and actually realize that most of the things that we get anxious anxious about never happen. I mean, I use the example in 02/2012 after my breakdown. I kept something called a worry journal. It sounds weird, but go with me. It's a really, like, messed up version of a gratitude journal. I wrote down everything that made me highly anxious or the byproducts of high anxiety, so, like, defensive and aggressive behavior. Jealousy and insecurity were huge in my world. Erratic behavior, sedgy lack of energy. And on day one, there were a 28 entries. And two weeks later welcome to OCD. Two weeks later, I I kind of checked back on day one, and of those of those a 28 things, absolutely none of them happened. And the more that I started to prove myself wrong, when that pattern starts to come in, I can then start to change the narrative enough to say, actually, no, because it didn't it didn't happen last time. It's the same as, I'm sure everybody here has had that feeling that they left the other on, they left the door unlocked. It's kind of like that on repeat in that sense. But the more that we start to kinda check these things if I'm tired and stressed, and the reason I say I have OCD even now, it it never goes. If I'm tired enough, stressed enough, shocked enough, I actually developed it again after after having a road accident a few years ago, but I come back very quickly. If I check something more than twice, I have to physically stop myself because I will fall back into that routine. I do a roadshow with an amazing, what I called my neuroboffin, Ellen. She she says that when we create anxiety about things, we damage ourselves mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally as if it were actually happening anyway. So we're kind of damaging ourselves multiple times about the same situation. So one of the the main kind of points of what I speak about now is to fact check our anxieties. And, actually, is this fact, or is it the story that we're telling ourselves? And is it if it is the story that we're telling ourselves, we can change that story. And if it's facts, go for closure. I always use the example of the text message. So if you've ever had a row with somebody really close to you by text message, iMessage, or WhatsApp, the three dots causes far more anxiety than the actual end of that conversation. And what about the disappearing three dots? So much anxiety. But the end of that conversation is never that bad. And and this is the thing. We we were constantly assuming worst case outcomes. So my advice to to people listening and watching this today, set out on a mission to prove yourself wrong. You'll be surprised at how little actually happens. Yeah. So I I I use that kind of Joanne Lockwood: expression. There's a a forecaster called Paul Saffo, and he coined the phrase strong opinions are weakly held. And part of that is, yes, you're allowed your opinions, but go out to the world believing you're wrong and and and try to prove you're wrong rather than start believing you're right, try to prove you're right. It's a bit like that's what scientists do. They put a theory out there and they try and prove each other wrong, and they they welcome criticism and peer reviews, and everyone who's done a PhD has to justify their opinions with people saying you're wrong. They have to stand up and defend it. So, yeah, most people wanna be right. Most conversations are about selling my opinion to you, even if it's just, it's nice weather. I'm selling you that belief that the weather's nice, and you're gonna go, well, it's a bit cloudy. So you're you're you're giving me your opinion back. And you try and analyze a conversation that doesn't have an opinion or a belief in it. Does that happen? Nick Elston: Yeah. Very true. I mean, it's important to say that I I I do share what I call lived experience playbook tips. So they're kind of they're not advised by any stretch and not solutions. If you are having thoughts which are intrusive or causes you pain or frustration, absolutely reach out for professional help. I would strongly recommend that, of course, as a clear morality and also for insurance purposes. That's that's my disclaimer. But I think there's again, there's something in that with what we both do. We're we're there to share lived experience. I think for me, lived experience I was speaking at the CIPD workplace well-being conference last week in London, and one of the main drivers of the message there was lived experience being the perfect vehicle to drive engagement to help or to solutions or insights or community, but it's not the answer. I think the worrying thing for me is I see a lot of people, especially in a mental health space, because that's a space I I'm in mainly. They're taking on that responsibility. We're helping people at their most vulnerable without the qualifications, training, or skills to actually help that person. I think for me, it's really about communicating our niche and our, the reason why we're there. And, obviously, for both of us, it's kind of what we do. We give people our experiences. We give people our lived experience. We share what works, what hasn't worked. And I think people really like that, but it's just a vehicle to reach out for help. Our role is to get people to a point of engaging in, for me, certainly, the the proper solutions. And for you, it was actually changing thoughts, changing minds. I mean, one of the things that I find people that have been through experiences in their lives find most difficult to start with is trying to engage with people that don't think like them and actually quite bluntly and and sometimes, as you say, abusively don't agree with them as well. That could be really challenging sometimes. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with you've mentioned kind of, like, the the letters and stuff that you get, but how do you deal with the kind of the what I call the low level toxicity, you know, the the little pushbacks that you get? Do you ever get that in person as well? I know this is your show, but I'm also very curious about Joanne Lockwood: it. No. No. I'm I I work I work on the the question. I mean, out of all of my experience, I've only ever had one or two occasions where someone was made a point in one of my training sessions. They objected to me using the word cis as a prefix. Cis is obviously a trans. And they got really empty about that word. And the fact that I used gender identity or gender when I should have been talking about sex and the Equality Act, and and they said, I don't have a gender identity. I said, that's great. I've got a lot of my friends who are non binary who don't subscribe to gender either. Fine. That really blew their brains out. You know? I was agreeing with them in a in a way. But they caught me unawares, and I'll admit now that I had to go out and have a have a bit of a toilet break and recompose myself because I was not used to dealing with that hostility. But what disappointed me most was in a room full of people, nobody spoke up. Nobody said anything. And afterwards, they all came up to me and said, oh, you you okay? Were you okay? Then they they told me this person was opinionated or awkward. They had a lot of trouble in the organization. I thought someone could have briefed me. Someone could have just mentioned that. Someone could have pointed it out. Someone you know, the senior people in that room, could have addressed that with that person, and I felt hung out to dry a bit. So, yeah, it has happened. But I suppose I'm better prepared because I always go into spaces. It's it's the there's a percentage of 15%. Fifteen % of people have racist have sexist views other than have views that are are off main kilter. Look at the bell curve inimality. There's always gonna be the 15% top, 15% bottom. So I I always expect getting on a bus. There's 15% of the people not gonna like me. Walk into a room, I have a hundred people, 15 people in that room are not gonna like me. So I go home with that kind of defense mechanism preprimed. And most of the time, 99% of the time, it's it's the anxiety that that never occurs. And I so I don't let it scare me. I manage that anxiety by just knowing that I've got my plan b in my back pocket if it happens. Right? Now I can show you my plan b card. I know how to deal with that. I've got an exit strategy. And, generally, my exit strategy is don't engage the trolls. You know, if you feed the troll, the the troll grows. If you give it oxygen, which is what I'm saying on TV news sometimes. No. One on one, people people don't. I had an incident where someone door stopped me. I suppose he was a politician term at a at a a festival conference. They wanted my opinion on trans people in sport. I'm not a sports person. I don't do elite. I don't run. I maybe go do recreational swimming, go for, a bit of gym work, but I'm not a sports person. I don't have a a strong opinion on on trans competition at all. I realize it's polarized. I realized there are it's I can produce a report that says this, and you can produce a report that says that. And we're arguing scientific reports, and I don't know which is best. So this person wanted me to acquiesce to their view that it was all wrong. It was cheating. I said, well, look. I don't wanna argue with you. I it's not my specialist subject. There's there's there's balance of a view here. They go, please. They were determined to have an argument with the artist. I don't owe you an argument, I'm afraid. I'm sorry. And, talk about something else, but I don't owe you an argument, and I'm not gonna argue on this. So, yeah, that that's how I would You need to answer on behalf of everybody, isn't it? Sorry. You broke up. It's it's kind of like they want you to answer on behalf of the Nick Elston: whole community. Yeah. You represent every single trans person in the Joanne Lockwood: world. And, yeah, every every person that you've experienced is different, and it's in the same way, your your anxiety or OCD is unique to you, how you experienced it. It must have been immensely frustrating for people who loved and cared for you or knew you, having a a rational view of what you're doing saying, come on, Nick. Can't you see this is you know, can't you just hold your breath and try and cure your hiccups? Can't you just do everyone everyone's got a cure, haven't they? They have. And I Nick Elston: think has to be said. I come from a very loving family. I'm very lucky that way. Interestingly, my memory isn't great. I, I had to look back on NHS records to see kinda, like, the date of diagnosis and everything else that happened along the way, and I was speaking to my my mom and everything else. So growing up day to day, I can't remember actually how it felt. But as I came into the late teens, I I do very much remember that because, obviously, it's a very memorable period. But they were great. But interestingly, I think, societally, which is why I asked you the question about kind of societal kind of expectations, you get labeled as something. And we do this, especially with kids. He's a warrior. He's sensitive. And, of course, that reaffirms then the belief that I am like that anyway. So it becomes kind of just part of the norm and part of what you do. When I first started to address this and and, again, for a professional help, I actually had to kind of speak to everybody and say, look. If I ask you for reassurance once, answer me. If I ask you for reassurance again, don't answer me. Because if anybody here has had experiences of OCD, you'll know that reassurance lasts for about twenty minutes. So I think people family have always been very supportive. Obviously, I got Teresa, got counseling, everything else in my childhood. But I think it wasn't addressed because of just the way that the medical services were not lined up then. I mean, I'm 47 now, so this is a long time ago. It was only really when I started to address this in 02/2012, I started to make real kind of inroads using current day therapy, CBT, and lots of other things that are available now that just weren't available mainstream then. Do you perceive it was already innate within you and Joanne Lockwood: there was a trigger event that set it off, or do you think it was a alert behavior later in life from a trigger event? Or do you think some of your anxiety, some of your upbringing has kind of made you vulnerable to to developing this kind of mental health challenge? Great question. The trigger point was, Nick Elston: as I understand it well, obviously, I can't remember before that. But as I understand it, the trigger point was the the accident with my my sister and and seeing that happen. I would say that the the what I call flare ups since in a major way have always happened at high points of stress. So there's an element of me which kind of feels that maybe that's my default setting that I go straight back to that point. It's but it's kind of like the you're trying to control everything. And I think, again, that links in with just general anxiety. And everybody that, that has that level of anxiety, you try and control everything and everyone, and that only compains the level of anxiety you're experiencing because you cannot control anybody or anything, and the pursuit of doing so will only create extra damage. So it's a really interesting one. Maybe that is my default setting. I kind of reference them now as Indiana Jones mining cart tracks. They're always there. But if I get shunted back onto them, I know it's come back quicker. I say Indiana Jones. I mean, I'm back to the exit now. Is that what you're saying? It's like Joanne Lockwood: a a nineteen eighties computer game where you're trying to wander around trying to find the exit, and you know where the exit is. You turn left, turn right, turn left, turn right, and there it is. Yeah. I love that reference, Joe. I'm a Nick Elston: big gamer myself, so I do love that reference. It's really cool. Is that I Joanne Lockwood: I I was just thinking about my own sort of the way I would handle things. And I think over my life, I may have gone through moments in my life where I was acquiring stress and pressure, and everything was doom and gloom. There's no way out. How do I cope with this? And then I think I didn't do what you did, which is write down all these things that you worry about and then realize they hadn't happened. I I think my brain just was able to go, that's not real. That's not real. That's not real. And I I think I've recalibrated my pressure valve, whereas it used to have a high tolerance for pressure. And now it it blows really, really quickly. I go, not worth it. It's like sticking a knife in a car tire. It just deflates quickly, and I'm I have a quick I have a fucking yeah. Don't care. I'm out. Just poof. Not playing. And it's, it's, allows me to sort of deescalate things very quickly. Yeah. I love that. That's really cool. A friend of mine, Zoe, Nick Elston: she she says, I put it in front of the itty bitty shitty committee. Joanne Lockwood: And The brain is doing the Got a jar of fucks to give, which I I can't get one of them. That's pretty Nick Elston: cool. I've only got so many, and it's like, for special people, I have a Joanne Lockwood: a jar of hugs though, as well. So, you know, these are things I wanna get. Big fan of hugs. I'm I'm a big fan of that. That's cool. I love it. Yeah. I think put it in context that you, you know, when you wanna use fucks or spoons or whatever it is, you've only got so much you can give without it eating into you, isn't it? You know? I I'm not prepared to give you that fuck, I'm afraid. Sorry. It's not yours. I don't want it. It's mine. Yeah. There is. But Nick Elston: I think that takes a level of confidence and self esteem. I think when people go through an adversity or a huge period of change, I think that actually two of the things that are impacted for a lot of people are self esteem and confidence, that not feeling they have the right to reserve your fucks in this sense. There's something really empowering about finding your voice. I think there's something really empowering about being able to own your story in a way that you've taken control of the narrative in that sense. I love that. I think that's such a cool thing. And when combined with seeing what the value is in your story to other people because actually, interestingly, the values of other people may not be something you consider important. Maybe it's such a small part of your journey, but when you start to see it from an audience perspective, there's something in your experiences, Joe, which really resonates with people. And interestingly and, again, this came up in conversation yesterday with, with a client that I could deliver the same talk to the same audience four times and have four different outcomes because if that one person in the audience is going through a marital problem, they're gonna pick up on the bit when I talk about personal relationships. Next time around, it could be a professional problem, and they'll pick up they'll ignore the other bit. So it's it's not about what we say to people. Trying to shatter our egos here. It's about the receiver. It's about where they are and actually what they wanna pick up from there. Yeah. How you make people feel? Yes. Yes. How you Joanne Lockwood: move them from a to b. It is. And I'm I think I'm the same as you. I I stand on the stage, and I've got a start and end, and I've got a rough map of how I'm gonna get from start to end. Yeah. A lot of it just depends on who smiles at me. If I say something and someone smiles at me, I go, okay. We'll just go into that a bit more. I'll talk to you for a bit. And I love that. Someone else will smile, and I'll talk to them for a bit. And it's Yeah. Different people will smile at different times or not, and you just feed off the audience. And I think that's the important thing. If I've got if I know I've got one person listening, I'm gonna keep talking to that one person. Yeah. I think it's Nick Elston: it's a musician thing. It's like you riff with your content. You you know what's allowed in, so you stay in that. And I love that. That's really cool. I love that. Yeah. I mean, I've I've I've never done a Joanne Lockwood: TEDx because you have to learn it off by heart and practice it and demo it. I don't do the same talk twice. I mean, I've I've got the same themes. I've got my LEGO bricks that I can make a fire station out of. But today, I might wanna make a racing car. You know? It's still the same bricks. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. TED TED's an interesting Nick Elston: one. As a disclaimer, I do I do enjoy TED TED Talks, TEDx Talks, but they do, as you say, follow the same kind of format and the same kind of outcome and stuff. I prefer more free flowing. So in the same way that people like Toastmasters have an amazing space in the world for presentation skills and stuff, for me, it's it's finding somebody's voice and amplifying them. It's not about kind of this conveyor belt of making rinse and repeat speakers and and the way that they deliver and the way that they format. I'm very much like you, Joe, that I'll have a big image behind me on the screen, and then I'll work out where I'm gonna go with this when I'm actually in front of people. And I think there's something in it as well that you you've probably had the same experience. So there's things in my head. Do a lot of thinking when I'm traveling and then creating, like, new talks and stuff. And there's something I think this is gonna be brilliant. When I say this, it's gonna be such a laugh. Be rolling in the oils. Nothing. Tumbleweeds everywhere. And there's things that I've tripped over on the stage, which just work because that it just on the and that stays in. So that's why I always say that your story is an evolution, that it evolves with you and the world and the audience and society and Donald Trump and everything else is experiencing in the world right now. They're they're all has an element of it changes the way that our story is told. Doesn't make your your story wrong. It doesn't make your story disingenuous or not original. It just means that you're adapting it to where you where your beliefs and where your thoughts and insights are coming from there. Yeah. My brain's I I think in in pictures and Joanne Lockwood: metaphors, which work in my head, they're not always working on people's heads. But I I think I was on stage once, and someone asked me this question. So how do you handle it when people are overenthusiastic or whatever whatever the phrase was? And I said, well, I'd rather ride a bucking bronco than drag a nag. So at least with a bucking bronco, you've got some energy. You could you can work with it. You can tame it. You can you can direct the energy. With a nag, just towing it along, you you're doing all the work. It doesn't wanna be there. People come up to me after someone and someone, oh, I've written that down and drag you know, don't remember my a dragon egg. And it's just something that popped into my head when someone asked me a question, and, it's become something I I I've used often. I like that. It's not not a Nick Elston: quote I thought I was gonna get today, but I like those. Joanne Lockwood: And I don't know about you, but you find yourself using these quotes. You think you've made them up, and then other people use them. Have you listened to my stuff, or have I listened to your stuff, or was it just a a really good conversation? I I quite openly own own my, Nick Elston: kind of complete copying because they're usually country music songs. I'm a huge country music fan. It's kind of my thing. I love, kind of, Nashville and everything else. And, so a lot of my quotes and talk titles are country music songs. I think, actually, by owning it, I know that I'm not certainly not playing any copy of somebody else I've listened to. But I think you're right. I think that so the quote that I I love is every storm runs out of rain, and and I use that the end of every talk. But I kind of make a joke of the fact it's not mine. I just it's a great country song by Gary Allen. Check it out. But I I think you can have 10 speakers sharing the same sentiment from the stage and have 10 different impacts because it's not about what we say. It's about how we make people feel and how you deliver it. And the genuine, authentic, vulnerable Joe that's sharing that statement will be very different from somebody else. I always kinda liken it to scripted sales calls. No. It's just in general. She don't buy into it. You you just you treat her with the respect it deserves. Like, usually, you pull the cable out the wall. Or you see an amazingly polished speaker at a conference. Politicians are great in this. Amazingly polished, but you can't buy into it. You can't emotionally buy into it because you just know it's kind of, or you see that kind of cell speaker at a conference, and they'll give you an amazingly polished talk. They'll run to the back of the room now. There's only 10,000 pounds. They've lost you because it's disingenuous. And I think that's the bit that we need to explore more people like you, Joe, where you are leading I call it emotional leadership and emotional storytelling. You're taking people on a journey through feeling what you're saying, not hearing the words per se. I think people will very rarely remember what I've said, but they'll know how I make them feel. And that's the bit that sticks with people. I don't get a secret. I very rarely rarely remember what I've said myself. Joanne Lockwood: It's it just it it comes out of a bit. My brain comes out of my mouth, but it doesn't go through the memory part. And it's just, I've taken to recording. I've got a mic I clip onto my lapel sometimes on my dress when I'm speaking, and I I transcribe it after, so I can look back and go, oh, that was actually some good stuff Nick Elston: in there, wasn't it? Something like that. It's a great idea. Because usually I just end up slipping the videographer a couple of hundred quid to get the raw footage. Actually, re recording my own is a good shout. That's a that's a great tip. Yeah. I've got an app on my phone, and I've got a little mic. Joanne Lockwood: I just clip it on and and just get my phone to record. And then I I upload it into AI, and it transcribes it. It comes up with takeaways. And I I often give my That's that. Speaker booker I said, you know, I I not only talk. I'll give you, an FAQ, a a terminology, and a and a and an output, a takeaways from this from my talk. Yeah. Go back, drag and drop, puff cut it and paste it into Word, PDF it, and send off the speaker book. Yeah. Yeah. Send it to your audience. Nick Elston: But that's because you're creating an experience. You're not just giving a talk. You're creating an experience where people get genuine value from that. But, again, you see I mean, you I'm sure you've been at these conferences speaking as well. You see so many speakers that just kinda like come on and do the slides and the whole Chris Whitty thing and then go again. And it's like what actually happened there. But we don't we can't remember what he said or what was covered. But, okay, who's next? And I think that's why when you get somebody with genuine emotion comes on, it really enlivens the room. It really wakes people up because, actually, what you're talking about is a human experience. And not people that have had the same experience as you very often, but people that want they're just intrigued by We have been brought up and for generations on storytelling, good and bad, but But it's the stories that we tell people. And I think your ability to change the dynamic in the room is is absolutely a superpower because you know it's true. When we've been in the open plan office and that really angry person walks in, that stuff ripples. When really happy person walks in, that stuff ripples. You can change the environment with your words immediately, but it's the emotion that really people tune into. That's what they feel. Yeah. I can't wait to see one of your talks, no joke. Well, when we when we hang up Joanne Lockwood: this, we'll have to exchange some notes. Maybe we'll collaborate on something. Sounds good. Do Nick Elston: talk about that. Yeah. Nick, it's been an absolutely Joanne Lockwood: fascinating chat in a way, and, Love that. Thank you. It's nice to find a kindred spirit, and Yeah. We share a lot of common values, beliefs, and thoughts. And, yeah, and thank you for going deep on your mental health and your OCD. And I've I have to admit, I was a bit curious, and I I I thank your vulnerability for sharing it with me and the audience. So, yeah, thank you. Bye bye. Likewise, Joe. Thank you. Lovely to meet you as well, and and Nick Elston: thanks to everybody else for tuning in as well. Who can get ahold of you? Nice and simple, just like me. B w w nick elston dot com. You'll find everything on there. I'm not on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Just if you are on LinkedIn, you can connect me with me on there for sure. And also Joanne Lockwood: look up your articles on HR's own training zone and publications such as that. Yeah. Nick Elston: Absolutely. Yeah. Stay tuned for those, and I'll be digging a bit deeper into your archive as well. So I really like the cut of your chip. Joanne Lockwood: Excellent. Let's get to easy turn as well. Carry on, Phil. Nick, thank you. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.