--- title: "The Science Of Workplace Equity" episode: 159 date: 2025-05-15 guest: "Dr Liz Wilson" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/159-the-science-of-workplace-equity audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-159/audio.mp3 --- # The Science Of Workplace Equity Joanne Lockwood is joined by behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert Dr Liz Wilson to explore what actually makes workplace equity stick. Rather than treating inclusion as something achieved by changing minds through training alone, they focus on the behavioural science of systems, processes, and organisational “architecture” that makes inclusive action the default. Liz explains why many DEI efforts struggle when they’re delivered as fragmented, label-by-label programmes, and shares her “eight inclusion needs of all people” framework as a universal, intersectional alternative. Together, they discuss why recruitment should come after building the conditions for retention and thriving, and how small design choices in workflows can shape behaviour at scale. The conversation also touches on the psychology of resistance and backlash, the role of values alignment and team-level culture, and how lived experience can shape both insight and resilience. Liz shares parts of her personal story, including her late ADHD diagnosis and chronic pain, and they reflect on how people can be brought into change through language and approaches that reduce defensiveness and widen engagement. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Team Culture Over Company Values - 05:39 — Cultural Transformation: Behaviours Over Beliefs - 12:38 — Achieving Pay Equity in Organisations - 17:23 — Rethinking Inclusion in Organisations - 24:32 — Centre Strategy Over Extremism - 28:32 — Moving to U.S. for Impact - 32:43 — Inclusive Policy Challenges Worldwide - 39:07 — Inclusion Work Postponed Amid Uncertainty - 46:43 — Balanced LinkedIn Engagement Approach - 53:11 — Expulsion and Misunderstanding Story - 55:21 — Understanding ADHD and Sensitivity - 01:04:19 — Join Inclusion Bites Community - 01:05:14 — Catch You on Next Bite ## Key takeaways - The pivotal role of systems and organisational architecture in creating and sustaining inclusive behaviours. - Why culture is determined by local teams and managers, not simply by organisational statements or office presence. - The dangers of focusing only on recruitment without first ensuring retention and psychological safety for all. - How intersectionality and the “eight inclusion needs” framework reveal universal requirements for genuine belonging. - The need for centrist, pragmatic approaches to influence and drive inclusion, rather than polarising activism. - How to counteract pushback and politicisation of DEI by showing “what’s in it for me” and fostering shared understanding. - Practical ways to weave inclusion into every process, developing behavioural norms that shape culture organisation-wide. ## FAQs ### What is meant by ‘workplace equity’ and how does it differ from diversity and inclusion? Workplace equity refers to creating systems and structures that ensure fair treatment, access, opportunities, and advancement for all. Unlike diversity, which addresses representation, and inclusion, which tackles belonging, equity is about removing barriers and restructuring environments so everyone can thrive. Dr. Liz Wilson emphasises that workplace equity is not about forcing everyone to adopt the same beliefs, but about shaping behaviours and actions through systemic change. ### Why does Dr. Liz Wilson argue that changing beliefs isn’t the starting point for equity and inclusion? Dr. Wilson explains that you cannot and should not attempt to change people's core beliefs or values as part of inclusion work. Instead, cultural transformation starts by creating systems, processes, and architectures that embed inclusive behaviours into everyday actions. Over time, these actions become habits and contribute to the development of an inclusive organisational culture. ### What role does organisational culture play in workplace inclusion, according to the discussion? Both speakers highlight that culture is shaped by daily actions and is most tangibly experienced at the team level, frequently influenced by individual managers. Effective workplace inclusion is about enabling each person to bring their ‘four square metres’—their individual culture and values—with them, rather than forcing employees to fully assimilate to a prescribed organisational norm. ### Why is it problematic to focus purely on recruitment or ‘diverse hiring’ as a DEI strategy? Dr. Wilson stresses that organisations must establish inclusive environments before expanding diverse hiring. Simply recruiting more diverse employees without first fixing culture and systems results in new starters experiencing the same barriers as their predecessors—leading to dissatisfaction and high turnover. She insists on the principle of ‘start with retention in mind’ and only move to recruitment once the environment is ready to support everyone. ### What are the ‘eight inclusion needs of all people’ mentioned in the episode? Dr. Wilson has developed a globally researched framework—'the eight inclusion needs of all people'—which provides a universal, intersectional approach to inclusion. These needs apply regardless of cultural, legal, or social context. While the specifics of the eight needs are not detailed in the transcript, they are designed to ensure that everyone can see themselves in the inclusion conversation, moving beyond single-identity or ‘labelled’ approaches. The framework is openly available online for leaders and practitioners. ### How should organisations use systems and structures to promote inclusion? Drawing on behavioural economics, Dr. Wilson recommends restructuring processes so inclusive actions are the default—just as changing the order of food at a buffet influences healthy eating. By mandating inclusive steps in decision-making, talent processes, and day-to-day business, organisations can reliably shift behaviours in an inclusive direction without relying on individual goodwill. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 159 with the title, the science of let's start that again. And today is episode 159 with the title, the science of workplace equity. And I feel absolute honor and privilege to welcome doctor Liz Wilson. Liz is a behavioral scientist and strategic inclusion expert dedicated to transforming workplaces, data, and research driven frameworks and organizational change. And when I asked Liz to describe her superpower, she said that it is turning personal adversity into a global mission for workplace equity and inclusion. Hello, Liz. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. I think that sounds my superpower makes Dr. Liz Wilson: me sound like I'm some kind of wild idealist thinking one person can change the world, but I guess you gotta start somewhere. Well, I'm a great believer that as much as I want to Joanne Lockwood: change the world, I know all I know is I can change me. I think changing me, showing up the best person I can be is my mission and hopefully between us, we can influence by another person. And that's what we were that's what we're trying to do with, isn't it? Yeah. And I've been well, before Dr. Liz Wilson: I even moved into working in inclusion, one of the things when I was focused on culture change was my career for twenty years before inclusion was I would say to people, you carry your organizational culture with you. So think of it, but sort of like your four square meters around you. That's your organizational culture and you have the influence over those four square meters. And so I think that's the same thing here that we can talk about. We take that culture with us, then those that step into that space, we can influence them to be our organizational culture. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, I love that. I love that. Because I remember when we're coming out of COVID, you know, all those years ago, it's like seems like a lifetime ago, COVID. Oh, yes. I remember organizations, when they're trying to cram people back into the office, they're trying to crowbar them and this, this, wow. You know, the culture of the organization is this. We need you back in the office. We can give you our culture, and we can buy you in. My my debate was I want my culture like my pension. I can take it with me from place to place to place. I don't need you to give me my culture. And so I want you to absorb or recognize my own culture and allow me to develop my my personal culture at home, my friends, my family, my community, and not expect me to drive two hours each way, just to have a bit of your call. And if you're, and I'm looking up, cause I'm Dr. Liz Wilson: like drawing from like all of the experiences of organizations. Cause I've been a freelance consultant since I was 26. So I've not been an employee, a technical employee, but it means I've seen and been in a lot of different organizations. And for the most part, I could only name two or three of the dozens of organizations that would have cultural values that align with mine. So this values alignment thing, we could go deep into values alignment or not. But in terms of, we know how toxic some cultures can be and those cultures aren't necessarily organizations like you're saying about coming to the office and we can give you our culture. Organizations are nice in theory or conceptually is having a whole culture, but we all know it comes down to the manager that we're working with. Right? So T it starts at the team culture level level, and that can be created remotely. Anyway, there we go. Duane, I didn't wanna hijack. We can No. No. No. That's good. I I think Joanne Lockwood: let's let's go down there. I mean, you're so you're so right. It it does it does completely come down to the your point of contact here, your supervisor, your manager, the team you're in. Because I I'm I'm a great fan of a an author called Rutga Bregman if you've ever come across him. He's, two books. One is, Eutopia for Realists, and the other one is Humankind. And I subscribe to his his belief system, and I think he's a he really sings to me. And what it it says is inherently people are good. We don't wake up to be bad people. So I I also believe that organizations believe they're good. And as we both know, perspective is everything. You know? Just just because I believe I'm good doesn't mean so that you believe I'm good. So I think organizations do start off believing they're good as somehow that message gets diluted or gets lost through people. Because people, you can't predict them, can you? They're just they're just people. When Dr. Liz Wilson: we look, I'm a, I'm a cultural transformation expert. Right? Like it's what I do for a living. So it's almost sounds like I'm talking contradictory to what I do and help organizations do, but hear me out on the theory on this one, because this is how it works in practice. So let's say you have organization a and organization a is currently culturally this. Now, if you're listening and not watching, I'm doing like the inverted commas funny you use in the air because really culture is made up of behaviors and actions. Okay. So you can say your behaviors are X, Y, and Zed, but it's, what's demonstrated. What do we behaviorally do and what are the actions and decisions that we make? So we can, it's more about how do we change behaviors and actions? Cause you know what, if we're going to try to move an organization or that organization from a to b, the point is you actually can't change people's beliefs or values. And in fact, you shouldn't be trying to, that is in complete contrast to the desire to create diversity in an organization that enhances its ability to be creative and innovative and high performing. All you're trying to do is ensure there's an alignment of behaviors and actions to what are those principles or values. Is that true conceptual? I I don't know if I'm No. No. Joanne Lockwood: I I buy into that completely. I think I think you're right. And, I simplify that down to there's a difference between fitting in and being embraced for who you are. Fitting in is is changing you for the organization. So what you're talking about there is you're embracing my culture and values, and hopefully they align, or we can find some alignment between this, but you're not forcing me into yours. Now I'm going to bounce off what you've Dr. Liz Wilson: said. The yes, and on forcing. Where, you know, the title I think he gave us today was the science of workplace equity. So here's a bit of the behavioral science bit behind it. Okay. So the doctor in me, so is the PhD in behavioral science and in organizational culture. That's literally what my PhD was. So what hurts my feelings as a behavioral science person is that, you know, you can't actually start with developing people's behaviors. I know, hang with me here. We actually have to create systems and architectures, which is the behavioral economics of things. We have to put systems and processes in place that force loosely. I don't mean with a stick, but just require. So I'll soften that word, a certain action to be demonstrated to go past go. I always, in my mind, I'm visualizing a monopoly board. If you want to succeed in this organization and get past go and continue around the board, you have to complete this step. And so that step, whatever that is, if you were trying to create more inclusive organization, for instance, since we're on an inclusion bites podcast, we put an inclusive step in that is required to continue on that pathway, whether that's in a process in a talent acquisition cycle, or if it's in the business case and project cycle, whatever it is, that is the system. And then that means we don't have to change anyone's beliefs. It's just, if you want to succeed in this organization, you need to do this action. And then the more times you do that action, it turns into a behavior. And the the great stuff for me is as a cultural transformation person is the more things the actions turns into behaviors, the accumulation of those behaviors then become your culture. And that's the science of workplace equity by putting that button on the keyboard that requires you to go enter for inclusion. So you're rewarding. So below training a Joanne Lockwood: puppy, you're, you're rewarded behavior. And that behavior is alignment with your corporate values. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So Dr. Liz Wilson: if inclusion is part of your own principles of your organization, there's pillars of success for your organization, you weave it into your ways of working across the organization. Like I said, whether it's and it's not just talent acquisition. I want to be really clear on for people is when we're transforming organizations to be inclusive. I do talent acquisition last. Right. This is, and that might hurt some people's feelings because that's where people tend to start because it makes sense. Right. We need to get more diverse people in the organization. But I wholeheartedly believe that if all you do is focus on getting more diverse people into the room, you're just giving them another experience to have another, another opportunity to have a shit experience. We have to get our ducks on a row first and then create an inclusive environment systems, processes, architectures, so that when we do then get to talent acquisition and they come in, then they can bloody stay and thrive. Joanne. Oh, I don't know Joanne Lockwood: if you're reading my mind or you've or I'm reading yours or whatever happened. But whenever I talk about, building equity and inclusion bike rides, I always talk about starting with retention in mind. We got what we gotta do is sort as you say, sort out our culture, clean the tank, making sure that, the organization is fit for purpose because that otherwise, you just you bring people in. They go, oh, it's smelly in here, and you walk out the back door. On all your investment in in the term acquisition, the training, the onboarding, just go straight out the window because you And that's been the problem with if you think about the Dr. Liz Wilson: immediate in this point in time pushback politically and socially on, and I'm going to use the acronym because that's what people are using the DEI. So that's become woke was the bad word. Now we've got woke and DEI, which has become its own word. The people that are anti DEI think that it's just affirmative action and the recruitment process, right? That's in their mind. They're pushing back on that. When in fact, if we're creating inclusive organizations across the whole organization system, everyone's benefiting. And we can talk about the science bit that I've developed to help people understand that a bit more. And that's part of the problem. If we create an environment that everyone can thrive, that the barriers are removed for everyone, that everyone can fulfill their potential. We wouldn't be having this problem where people think it's about someone else and not me, because in fact, we all have inclusion needs. I'll keep going, keep Joanne Lockwood: going. I love it. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. I'm on a soapbox. If I go Dr. Liz Wilson: back to don't tell my professor, it was about a year prior to graduating my PhD. And I was, if anyone else listening has done a PhD, you get to a point I did a part time. So it was an eight year vlog and that that's me not swearing, but it's like, you're stabbing yourself in the eye. You want to give up. It's a horrendous journey. And if yours wasn't horrendous, then I'm jealous. So basically I went down a rabbit hole of researching about inclusion because what had happened is I'd heard that statistic at the world economic forum released, two zero eight years to gender pay equity. Now I wasn't. Yeah. All right. So this is a while. I don't know. Maybe it was eight, ten years ago. I don't know. It hasn't got any better. It hasn't got, if you've read Joanne Lockwood: the latest one, it's still no better. Great. Anyway, so let's, let's call it ten Dr. Liz Wilson: years ago to be safe because COVID stole us our years and I don't know, everything's blown now, but I heard the number and I'm like, so I work in organizational change and I get hired by organizations to take them from here to here, whatever that here to here is. And invariably dependent on that gap between current and future state, we're looking at eighteen months, three to five years, right? So they're the three time average timeframes. And I'm like, but pay equity, like from a change point of view, this is, this is me naively not knowing anything about DEI. Right. Well, you know, I could do the data analysis within forty eight hours and then, you know, within a week, I could pretty much make sure all of the pays are rectified and then give me a, I don't know, a few months to change processes and procedures that whole system to ensure it doesn't flex back. I don't know. Then we've got to work on behaviors to make sure people actually put into place. So maybe eighteen months, because I'll tell you, no organization is going to pay me for two zero eight years to fix pay equity. Figured if I knew how I could do that, like I knew it was just made. I just, I know exactly in my head, how I would do that. I need to look into how the world's doing diversity equity and inclusion. And literally that is what sparked my research into going into why aren't we getting the change we want? Why is it what's being done isn't working. That was my naive mind going into it. And that's how I started my research in inclusion. So breaks it down. Why isn't it working? Yeah. That's what I wanna Joanne Lockwood: know. That isn't that the fundamental challenge with the anti woke DEI pushback? Because it it hasn't seen that the rewards, it was promising because people aren't tackling it the right way. So what's what's the headlines? Why isn't it working? It's multi layered. Dr. Liz Wilson: Which one will I start with? Let's go with just purely because you were saying this immediate pushback at the moment. From behavioral science point of view, when we do change, whatever that change is in an organization. If I came into the organization and said, you know, Joanne, everything you've been doing up until today was wrong. I'll try to do that in a different time. When everything you've been done, you should feel bloody guilty for it because it's shit. You've been doing it wrong your whole life. So from today onwards, you're going to do it my way. And do you know what that person or group of people or organizational teams would do for those not watching? They stick their fingers up at you. Right? It is like the behavioral science of it is no, I'm gonna push back that will not affect change. So that could be anything from your, the software you've been using to inclusive ways of thinking and working. Right. So we can't come back at you with an activist approach. Number one. So the change management approach hasn't been correct. Now, what I will say and acknowledge for those that are working in the space particularly is that I understand to look at me. I walk into a room with a visual privilege of presenting as white in The United States. So let's park that. But the thing is we need to be able to see ourselves in the inclusion solution. So when someone comes into the room, my contemporary, my peer, that's also working on inclusive change and they've lived their life without the same privilege that I have as I walk into a room. There's frustration, the barriers they're fought, like invariably, I understand why they are coming at it with an activist approach. So please don't feel like I'm dismissing your emotion and lived experience, but unfortunately we have to park aside our emotion and approach it with a more understanding the science behind the neuroscience as to how it can affect the change. Does that make any sense, Joanne? I hope I'm explaining it okay. It does. I've got my own metaphor, which I'll Joanne Lockwood: have you share in a minute. You carry on, you carry on going. That's number Dr. Liz Wilson: one. Now in terms of seeing ourselves with any change, again, taking inclusion out of the conversation, there has to be a WIFM. And if anyone hasn't heard of that term before, it's an acronym for what's in it for me. Now, when we talk about the women's program, let's just use that. Right. Cause that was kind of the first movement, right? Like women vote, would think suffragettes. So if we take the women's program, Firstly, if we're giving women more opportunity to learn how to lead within an environment that isn't inclusive, you're actually not changing a system. You're just teaching them how to navigate a shit system. What we need to do is actually change the system now to change the system in that if we use a very binary, just to make it an easy explanation on a binary scale of gender, or for men that need to change, not the women, but the science will say, as soon as you say women, do you know who doesn't listen? Because their brain is programmed. We've all only got a small amount of program, like processing space or RAM in our brains. So we're not going to listen because it's not relevant. There's the other problem. Then if we take that layer, that label approach, right? So you look at a change across an organization, and if you're doing a program on women, which is very common, LGBTQI plus, disability, race or ethnicity, religion, veteran, neurodiversity, right? There's only so much airspace. You end up overwhelming people with the communications and ultimately you're trying to achieve the same thing. You're all trying to create inclusion. So then the next layer Joanne, and I feel like you're nodding because in inside we're doing this confirmation bias of what you already know, but it's also, then we are all more of a one label. So if you're doing a women's program. Sure. And I'll just use myself as an example, because that's the safest place to be. I know myself better than anyone. If you do a women's program. Great. But what about my neurodiversity, my ADHD, like how's that fitting into things? And then my chronic pain, which really presents itself as a disability, like how's that layering into the women's program? And then what about as a parent? And then when I lost my son and the grief of that, like, how does that fit into that women's program? Doesn't, it's not approaching people from a whole person perspective, the intersectionality of humans. And so that's where, once I identified all those things, all those barriers, I then developed the eight inclusion needs of all people. And that's based on research and practice. It works globally across social, legal, cultural norms. Even across Asia, I tested it in countries where it's illegal even to be gay. So there you go. There's my big lecture. I hope I haven't watched. I'm I'm just nodding in Joanne Lockwood: agreement. You're singing the same tune, the same hymn seat. So, yeah, it's, let me show you what my metaphor, and it it doesn't work in The US. Unfortunately, it's more of a it's more of an English British thing because the way I look at it is, I treat the people of privilege as a as a as a as a stereotype, as a group, as people in their castle. So we talk about the the knights of the round table, the people in their castle. In in ancient England, they they were living in their castle. Outside the castle, you had the peasants that for various different backgrounds, and the peasants were revolting because peasants are always revolting. They're not happy with things. They want something different. But the people in the castle are going, it's fine in here. We've got enough fire, pigs, and sheep. We're gonna keep on living here. We don't need those pests. If the peasants start getting a bit bit feisty, they just start shooting them or doing what they're gonna do. They don't need the peasants. They're they're firing their castle. Then one day, the peasants had enough. So they all storm the castle. They've got their ladders. They've got their their pitchforks. They come out the castle, People in the castle just pull the drawbridge up, stand on the ramparts, shoot arrows, and pour boiling water and oil over. And the peasants just end up running away feeling disillusioned. Still hate the privilege, but they're still they're running away. The trouble with this thing is this is what we're doing today. You as an activist, you end up running up to the castle, banging your fist on the wall. We came black and blue, and all privilege is doing it, pulling the drawbridge up. So that what we're gonna do in the the first thing you're saying is, how do we lower that drawbridge? How do we get conversation? How do we have the centrist conversations where what's in it for me? We disarm. People approach the open mind where they say, actually, if I involve the peasants in my conversations, I'm gonna get better food. I'm gonna get better service. Yeah. Yeah. All the things I've, I don't have enough resource for. I've got more people to help me though. And, I love the knowledge. Dr. Liz Wilson: I have, I'm very visual. So I was, I had the whole visuals going with the bows and arrows with fire on the end of it. Like, I mean, I had the whole story going inside my hand then. But that's what's happening in Joanne Lockwood: the world, isn't it? The privileged shore themselves up in their castle, and they're scared to let people in because they're worried about what's gonna happen to them. They think, well, hang on a minute. If I let you have some of what I've got, I won't have any left. You know, the zero sum game that we keep talking about. So if that brings true things to mind for Dr. Liz Wilson: me, where you were talking about that castle analogy, I'm sure I don't know. I'm filtering in my mind. I'm like, no, just say it as you see it Liz. So I was in the shower the other day, and I know that might sound like too much information, but I don't know about anyone else. My brain, I think has a way of you plant a seed and then for a week or two, it does some kind of processing when I, I don't know when it's doing it. And then I'll be in the shower in the morning and boom, I'll have an answer or a solution to something. But this was me one morning of the past two weeks since the change in administration in The United States. And it's been really rough for lots of reasons, but I was in the shower imagining if I was being interviewed by Fox news. Right. So I'm not, I have really thin. Yes. I have really thin skin. Right. I'm not good with conflict. Like, so, you know, it, it is one of my weaknesses. So I was imagining what would happen if I was interviewed? Like, how would I approach it knowing it would be coming at me with a conflict like conflict approach. Anyway, I won't take you down the dialogue that I had in my head. However, what did come to mind is that really what I'm able to leverage is I look like them. That this analogy where we're talking about castles, I imagine myself, like I'm a sheep in Wolf's clothing instead of a Wolf in chief's chief's clothing. Right. And then me giggling to myself in the shower. Well, I'm a sheep in Fox clothing. But I think that is a privilege that I bring into a room that I'm quite disarming for those that perhaps don't believe in inclusion or the DEI acronym. So that in itself is something that I'm able to leverage. And then once that's disarmed, I create safety around, well, they look at me and think I'm one of them. And then when I start to disclose my identities, they're like, so inclusion and diversity is about more than race or a color of a skin. Okay. So now we're just lowering that and they say, oh, I've got chronic pain too. Or like I had a learning difficulty at school and, you know, so it was, you know, you start to get to that point and then I go, right, let's look at these eight inclusion needs of all people. And when I take them through them, anyone can Google them. And, I don't want to have do a big lecture on it, because I could talk about it underwater for eight hours, but these eight inclusion is everyone can see themselves in them. And when they realize they need every single one of them for them to have them, then everyone else can have them too. Pretty simple, really. Joanne Lockwood: You think so? You think so? But that's that's the problem with with we're not translating the mission into language that people understand. And I think you talked about the activist model and I talked about the the peasants revolting against the castle. We need a different strategy, and I it frustrates me sometimes because I I've realized over the last ten years, I suppose, you can't change people with ingrained views and opinions that aren't willing to be open minded. So the only place you can engage is slightly left or right of center. You can make maybe influence people who are just just off kilter. And then once you've got them, you can then use that as a foothold to influence the next group, and then the next group, then the next group. You can't go straight into the the far right or the far left or whatever whatever analogy you wanna use. So we gotta try and work in the center, but I I often get accused of selling out because the center ground can't make change, and it's it's it's too liberal. We should be standing up against fascist standing up against Marxists standing. I think my, hang on a minute. We could, that sounds like pitchforks and burning bushes and things. Dr. Liz Wilson: Kind of have to find that influence. Isn't it? I say you can't put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour and train my beliefs out of me. It's never going to happen. So if we think a training course is going to change someone's beliefs, and in fact, you shouldn't be trying to change people's beliefs. You just shouldn't. Right. So, but if we lay over some education and understanding, find the what's in it for me for inclusion, if they want it for themselves, they're going to give it, will they by default have to give it to others, under this framework, we put systems and architectures in place and I'm just, it comes to mind, which might be worth sharing in case anyone hasn't heard of the behavioral economics study. That was basically about buffets, you know, the all you can eat style. And it was a controlled study of a conference group over two days. And on the first day they put all the unhealthy food first and then all of the salads and healthy stuff second. And people filled their plates with all the unhealthy stuff first. And when they got to the end, a little bit of green stuff on the side. Then the next day they flipped the order of the food and they forgot the healthy stuff first. And then the unhealthy stuff. I'm not good at remembering exact statistics. One of my other weaknesses, but the calorie consumption change just from that economics or that systems and architectures change was astronomical. Okay. You can Google it, go find the paper it's then that's what we're talking about here. We need to put systems in place that create inclusive action. Even if you don't realize you're doing it, you just do it because that's part of the process. We've got to make it the easiest option, not the add on or afterthought. So that's what I do with my clients. So globally, I've been doing this now for ten years, I think, where we apply the inclusion needs across the whole organizational system. And what I admitted to say before Joanne, I wanted to make it really clear when I mentioned the space, space, the inclusion needs of all people framework, I've made that complete open access. So that wouldn't be inclusive otherwise. You can Google it, find the actual papers or Google it. And you'll find some explainer videos that I've got there. You can take that framework and use it and apply it in your work and creating inclusion at a team level, at a systems level for customers. I mean, it works across government decision making in the, in law and in education. Like it's completely applicable across everything. Joanne Lockwood: I'll put the links in the show notes. So thank you. Yeah. Well, I'll have a dive into that later myself. So there you go. I don't know. I was, Dr. Liz Wilson: I, did I go up on a tangent? I kinda remember now. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I've I've I've followed you and I'm I can't remember what the start line was. So Liz, you've, your accent, we were chatting the agreement before we went live. You're in The States. Is it Denver, Colorado right now? Yeah. Dr. Liz Wilson: Correct. Yes. So, yeah, Canyon sort of, so Rocky Mountains. So you hear of Dale and Breckenridge and Aspen, they kind of like an hour or two hours away. I'm pointing with my arm because that walks me out my window in that direction. And so, yeah, we moved here three years ago and really it was for my work and the purpose, you know, when we started off by saying the beginning, you know, through adversity, which we haven't really tapped into just yet, but through adversity, on a mission to create a world where everyone can thrive. And my original research and practice was based on Kimberle Crenshaw's research on intersectionality. I felt from little old Australia while I was working right across the Asia Pacific region. A lot of the times I was working with organizations that had headquartered organizations in The United States. And I figured if I'm gonna make a bigger impact, I've gotta move here. And so that's why I'm here. Yeah. It's a new change. Because Joanne Lockwood: Australia, Australia, New Zealand has its own challenge with the indigenous Aboriginal first first nation people and also Pacific Islanders. So it's a it's a it's a challenging space as well. In fact, it's more intersectionally diverse from a racial perspective than anywhere else in the world, I guess, as well, isn't it? Look, New Zealand, if we were to use case Dr. Liz Wilson: studies on inclusion for indigenous populations, New Zealand have nailed that one. They're doing a great job, of including and respecting their indigenous population. You know, Australia is on its path. My best friend is Aboriginal and she's a CEO of an indigenous organization. And, of forty years, don't tell anyone that we've been friends for forty years. It really adds years to our lifetime. Doesn't it? So she it's, I mean, this is going down a rabbit hole, but she came and visited me the last year or maybe the year before Australia had a vote on a referendum since, you're coming from a Commonwealth country as well. You know what a referendum is, but it's just, it's not, you're not voting for a politician for those that are listening outside of Commonwealth country, you're voting for a decision. So you're just basically walking into a booth and voting yes or no on something. And this was for something. I think they, the nickname for, and I was here while it was happening. So I'm not really up on the whole social discussion around it, but it was in principle for the indigenous population to have a voice when the government was making decisions that impact the indigenous population. And so it went to the popular vote for a yes and no. And my best friend was here when, the announcement was made that Australia voted no. That no. Our indigenous population should not have a voice when decisions are being made that impact them. And I'm paraphrasing here. Right. But that's really disappointing in 2020. Well, that was 2023, I think. Right. But far out, there's still so far to go and look, intersectionality, the indigenous population in Australia have that laid experience of being both the indigenous population where genocide occurred. So So if we compare them to United States, that would be similar to the indigenous populations here. However, they're also laid with the black identity of which, the, black or African Americans experience here too. So that they have an extra layer. Joanne, you know, that I could talk about all of them to stop forever, but across what I found most interesting though, And I will say when I was developing the eight inclusion needs, working, presenting it into the indigenous population, into Aboriginal Australians, I was super nervous. I was like, I need, if this doesn't work with them, this isn't going to work globally. And so I, you know, went with trepidation. Absolutely. When you start delivering the inclusion needs, there's a bit of resistance. You can see it physically. And there are other questions until you get to the end, they realize that they are more than just indigenous. And once, once they realize there's more to that, they go, yes, we can use this to shape policy. You know, so then when you start then working your way up through Asia and other countries where really we're talking about it's illegal to be people. Like you can't even legally be yourself and it becomes, you can't actually talk about creating an inclusive environment by using the words. So you can't say, yay, or let's just use that to see, I could use LGBTQI plus or any of those terms or queer. You can't use those terms because it's illegal to be that. So when we're able then to use the inclusion needs, we are talking about whole people and that whole inclusion needs rather than diving into one specific, specific label as well. So, yeah, it's an interesting space and where we then flick back to The United States. I've worked with global organizations, very famous ones, and I have worked with them to create their five year inclusion strategy, spend several days with them. Like I did a lot of homework and data analysis and stuff, and then do some in person stuff. Then I go lock myself in a room and do analysis and then come back and we do some more co creation work. And I have got to the end of multi days working with chief diversity officers, their strategy teams, their C suite. We've developed it. They've been part of it. And I literally walked out of the room on this particular client and a very senior person in that room said, so it can't just be about race. Five days of working with them in person. And I'd been doing work with them for a long time. And that's the barrier that I'm facing here in The United States is that in a lot of people's minds, inclusion is only about the color of your skin. So very interesting. All Joanne Lockwood: your fairness, if you look at what's going on at the moment is calorie, skin and queerness. It seems to be the, the big pushback at the moment is people aren't focusing yet on neurodiversity or disability. That's that's kind of the acceptable side of inclusion, isn't it? It's the racial and sociality. Dr. Liz Wilson: Yeah. The politicization of it where we've got, because in my experience in Australia, actually in the rest of the world, human rights, isn't politicized. He, that was actually one of the biggest culture shocks for me, really a big jarring how human rights is politicized. And, there is this, I would say they've taken race and trans. So not even LGBTQI plus right? Like the politicization of it is the far right taking, one identity out of that community and black. And then, I don't know, the black fear is about fighting the inequity of affirmative action, which obviously impacts women as well. And then the trans bit is obviously attacking people's healthcare needs. Like it's just, and then fear mongering. Oh, I'm just anyway, I'm sorry, Joanne. Now, now I start to get my ADHD brain starts to go off in all tangents and getting all emotional about how horrid the last couple of weeks have been for my friends who are trans. I'm sorry. I'll lose my track. Yeah. No. No. You're you're not the first guest Joanne Lockwood: I've had on the show. Some just before I I was I had I was with a an American lady on the day of the election, and by the she was running a training course. And by the end of the day, she was head hand head of her hands, and she was gonna have the worst day of my life sort of thing. And it was, and I've interviewed other people since. And it it's it's one of these. We had a similar we had a referendum. I don't know if you've heard of this, about Brexit leaving the European Union back in, I think, 2016 or whatever it was. It just highlights the idea of group think and affinity and those sort of things, you know, because if you're on one side of the fence, you've actually got no idea how people on the other side of the fence can even believe what they're hearing. I mean, probably the same as your, story about the the indigenous vote in in Australia. How can anybody not think this is a good idea? And then the vote goes against you. You think, well, clearly, the majority of the population do think it's a bad idea. So why did I how did I miss that? That's that's part of the problem I've had is Yes. Whatever happens in The US, I have to look at myself and say, well, 73 or million people voted for that person and they got more votes. So who who's wrong? Is it me? Should I question myself? So it's been as of Dr. Liz Wilson: recording today, so clearly we'll go live with this at a different time, but it's been two weeks and one day since the new administration came in. So let's just put this in a time context. In week one, immediately following I had three federal contracts cancel their work with me. Obviously I won't name them, but one of them in particular, when they, they scheduled the call. I just saw the zoom meetings going, right. They had my calendar. And I saw the zoom meetings go in and I knew what they were going to be. Why else are they special meetings that week? And it was the Friday and I get on the call with them and there's two of them. And they're not diversity equity or inclusion practitioners. They are people that lead businesses or government departments. The one of them was actually hearing, as she was telling me that we have to stop the work. We have to cancel it. And I found myself consoling them. But to the point I was only due to deliver the work two weeks later. Right. So it would have been this next week or this week that I would have been delivering the work. And they said, we don't even know how we're going to be able to pay you for the work that you've done so far, because we don't know if we'll be able to get that invoice paid. Right. So that was crushing around me on that Friday. That following weekend was my son's anniversary of his death, two weeks, two years after his death. So I have that compounding as well. Right. So your resilience is lowered already. I've got all of that. Then last week, two of my smaller organizations, but still in, in The US small organizations have thousands of employees have postponed their inclusion work just because they just want to need to find their feet and where they sit with everything. And I'm like, this ripple effect, isn't just, you know, the stopping in federal departments, small businesses. So in my example, might not get paid for work that they've they've done. And this is just on the GI stuff, right? These two weeks I've had such a significant flight response. And I really do mean that, you know, there's this fight or flight. No, I really, I was Googling because we have a dog. And my husband's English, just to listen as how do I move my dog to The UK with us? We've decided we will get on the Queen Mary because he can come with us on the Queen Mary and we can ship everything else. Right. So I already know how we'll do it. But then on self reflection, I have had a bit of pity party for myself. Not because it's bad for me. I mean, it's because of my mission for global change. Right. And then I realized I have this privilege of not having an employer. I don't have a brand I had to tow the party line for. So I have decided to make a little bit more controversial noise. I mean, I already told you that I have a thin skin, so I haven't gone really bold, but I have been a little more honest about some of the issues that we're facing. So anyway, I'm sharing those on my LinkedIn. And if anyone wants to go see those feel free to, but, Joanna, I want to share one observation about the far right. And, when I started the blog, the trolls, they came out from everywhere. Right. And the trolls will either go publicly or in your comments or in straight into your message box. Now I figure if you're brave enough to put your comments publicly on my post, then we should have a public conversation about it. So I went to the trouble of looking up who their employer was on their profile. And then I went to see if their organization had the values of inclusion and had it plastered on their website. So then I would come back to the message that they'd left and go. So I just, I'm curious really just out of curiosity, I can see your organization says this about diversity inclusion on their web. How does it work for you working in an organization when your values don't align with your organization? And of course I tagged their organization as well. No trolls have commented on a single post since. So maybe I've achieved something. They're still dropping into my inbox though, unfortunately. I've said that once and someone was trying Joanne Lockwood: to troll me about something and, I got a warning from LinkedIn because they'd accused me of bullying them by exposing their views to their employer. So they, tend not to take that approach anymore because, as I say, I've been reported to sabotage. Well, you could argue it and I cannot not Dr. Liz Wilson: you. They could argue it. And I would say, no, I haven't take I haven't screenshotted people's private messages in LinkedIn. You had a public conversation with me. I'm having a public one back with you. Like, oh, yeah. Okay. So they don't like being called out is Joanne Lockwood: is is what you're saying. People people wanna hide with anonymity or believe the conversation they're having. They've blinkered. They don't they don't see what they're doing. And I I see that a lot. And as a transgender woman, I get a lot of, hate mail, hate comments by by YouTube as a of a badge of honor sometimes. What people comment on? Joanne, the YouTube thing, because I've been putting Dr. Liz Wilson: these same vlogs on YouTube. So my podcast the last two years has been on YouTube. And I wanna come back to that for a second where you're saying there. And people are much braver on YouTube because it's way more anonymous on their, on their hatred comments. You can't, you don't really know who they are. But out of my, all my seasons, all the episodes across my seasons, I think there's like 50 or so episodes. And all I do is interview people that are different to me so I can learn how to better meet their inclusion needs. Now, one of my friends here in The United States, her daughter is trans. And so we had two episodes, one with Olivia, the mother, talking about her experience as a parent of, a trans teen who is transitioning. And then the second interview was with their child. And so those episodes have a lot of hits and, it's really interesting. There's a lot of hate on it, but I had to on the teens episode, so I feel it's okay. I think I'll leave it because Olivia, the parent is a grown up. And so whatever commentary is made there, we can deal with, but I had to delete and block comments on the Trans Teens episode because the comments were horrid. So I'm sorry, Joanne, for the population that are assholes at anything that they write or more content. I think we Joanne Lockwood: said earlier, either on air or or before that, all engagement is boost boosts engagement. It's a so I I think I do a lot of these Fox News type interviews, but they're on a channel in The UK called GB News. And one of their shorts of me went, as far as I'm concerned, viral by my standards, at 1,600,000 views and 50,000 comments and reactions and loads of shares. So I just thought, well, I I I looked at the maths and thought, hang hang on a minute. It's 1,500,000 views or 1,600,000 views. It's got something like, I don't know, four or 5,000 comments, and all the comments are toxic. But it's got something like 40 or 50,000 likes. So I'm assuming that most people who like it Yes. Were in favor and the people who commented, the ratio of likes to comment was actually the other way around. I I very rarely delete comments. I leave them I leave them for for educational purposes. I agree. Because Dr. Liz Wilson: as soon as people say, oh, no. There's no real problem. It means they actually don't have the choice. And that's a good point. But what I was gonna say is one of the giggles I have to myself, it's just an internal giggle that we'll share outside with everybody else right now, is that these anti trans people, the more they comment on trans content, the algorithm provides them with more trans content. So I'm like, I giggled because I'm like, you're doing it to yourself. You're you're being anti trans, but you're getting more trans content because you're commenting on trans content. I think it's brilliant. If I mean, algorithms have a lot of things wrong with them, but that one on social media, I think, is fabulous. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, we just need to educate people. Just jog on by, scroll on. You know, you don't need to stop and get angry for Yeah. Well, that's what what you wanna do. Right. I mean, a lot of them are bots and and trolls and things like this that are are not real people or they're they're just automation. So, yeah, it's hard to tell what the, because it the same comments are echoed again and again and again. And it's either they're so ingrained in their ideology and thinking that they've got this playbook that that's how they wanna comment or or they are, as I say, bots or trolls that that will automate, say, I don't. If people are LinkedIn Dr. Liz Wilson: users and they do, you can follow a bit of a trail that when you see someone post a hate comment, and you go onto their profile and you see their most recent activity, you just see a whole consistency of hate. So that's all they do. They just go on there and post the, rhetoric that, you know, it's hurtful and not helpful. Yeah. I, I dunno if, I dunno if I should Joanne Lockwood: be puzzled or whatever it is. I I don't get much hate on LinkedIn. I don't know what it is. Right. I suppose I I approach LinkedIn with a very inclusion, balanced sort of perspective. I don't I don't go for the activist stance. I go for the, I speak from the eye. As you said earlier, you know, if I speak from my from my message, I can always speak my own truth. So I I don't tend to post things that are kind of worthy of fee or if they are, people don't wanna be called out on it because, you know, I've got, what, 27 and a half thousand followers is enough to most of the people these people you're talking about have got five, six hundred or less than a thousand followers. Their amplification is, is, yeah, they'll be exposed a lot wider. They're no longer speaking in the dark, if you like. And so it's, it's interesting how you say, I Dr. Liz Wilson: also held myself to a standard where I didn't want to step into any controversy. I wanted to make sure that as a professional leading a very different way of thinking around inclusion and transformation in organizations, I just wanted to protect that to prevent any reason that an organization wouldn't hire me. And it really has only been over these last two weeks where I went, yeah, I think you need to make a bit more noise because there are some people that can't. So there you go. I've I've said Joanne Lockwood: this a number of times on other interviews on various various times that I go for the, the Marmite approach. If you've not heard of Marmite, then Australia's Vegemite or whatever. It's kind of Marmite's better than Vegemite. I will, I will Dr. Liz Wilson: admit it. Yeah. So it it's you gotta Joanne Lockwood: polarize your audience. You know, if you gotta you gotta mean something and say something. So I'm a great believer in that. You know, if I polarize the audience, at least people who love me will come and talk to me. People who don't wanna deal with me, they, they keep away, which is brilliant. So I didn't have to throw in my followers down. As any Vegemite or Marmite, Dr. Liz Wilson: consumer will agree. It's about the quantity of Marmite balanced with the amount of melted butter on the piece of toast. Right. It's to be very clear. So if it's about the recipe and how we present it, maybe that's part of the another analogy for you as with your castle analogy. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So, yeah. So you're, I'm delivering Marmite, the acceptable taste of Marmite is what you're saying, rather than just being the raw. Dr. Liz Wilson: Let's go, oh, I've tried veggie. I took a spoonful of it. I went, oh my God, that's disgusting. You don't eat it like peanut butter. Right. It's a scraping over copious amounts of melted butter on a hot toast. If we deliver inclusion like that, then everyone will eat it. Yeah. And Joanne Lockwood: I'm not a big Marmite fan. I do eat something called twiglets. I don't know if you have twiglets, but they're they're basically little Christmas snacks that are coated in Marmite. So twiglets, I can I can just keep eating these? It's just saying it's how it's delivered. It's delivered in a package that is thin and tangy, not capturing your entire mouth. Yeah. So I can I can do it? You're in the face. So there we go. We've just Dr. Liz Wilson: come up with a new analogy on how we deliver culture change on inclusion. So you have to bread it thinly enough Joanne Lockwood: so people still get the taste of the butter and the bread without overpowering them with the the full veggie bite mom might experience, isn't it what we're saying? Yeah. Dr. Liz Wilson: That's gross on a teaspoon. Yeah. Force feed it like, like Joanne Lockwood: some sort of chartered medicine that we get used to with our parents. Absolutely. So this year, you were saying earlier that, you've had a few traumas in your life and something you put the show notes was, hey, you got expelled in your eight. It's great. Do you wanna Yeah, sure. Expand on when you were a bad girl? No, Dr. Liz Wilson: very strange. So I went to a little, little tiny Catholic primary school, K to six. I didn't realize it, but I was a smart kid. I didn't know that. And, I did some exams and got into a, what we call selective schools, here in Australia. And, there's three of them in Sydney. They're girls schools. They're public schools though, as in Australian, you call public schools a different thing over in the, in The UK. But anyway, they're the ones that don't cost any money to go to. Okay. So, date school, a date school. There we go. So, right. So it's just all girls selective. So everyone was, had, had to pass exams to get in. And turns out I didn't feel very smart at all there. The culture wasn't great for me at all. And as soon as teachers were telling me I was bad at things, I believed them. So I'm very heavily influenced by my external environment. Tell me I'm shit at something. I'll believe you. I'm not one of those I'll prove you wrong. Wish I was. And so the, layer over that in the 1980s, girls didn't have ADHD. There was no such thing. Only boys did because it was presented in a certain way, you know, swinging on chairs and throwing shit in classrooms. That wasn't me. Like I was, I wanted people to like me. So I wanted, so I didn't present the way someone with ADD or ADHD would have. I got diagnosed in my forties. It makes a whole heap of sense why I rebelled in the classroom. Okay. I was disruptive, chatty. And then I just, the way they taught was auditory and I'm not, I'm not an auditory learner. Like there's a whole heap of compounding effects. What I got expelled for, should we tell people, Joanne? Oh, just between you and me, forget to say I Joanne Lockwood: want to listen, just go for it. No, I actually literally got expelled for something Dr. Liz Wilson: I didn't do. And people go, oh yeah, sure. I think no, no, no. True story. 03:12 train. Right. Every afternoon, the bell would go at three. If you ran really quickly to the station, you could get on the 03:12 train. Me and five of my friends bolted to the station to get the 03:12 train. We're on Platform 2. So now seems like it's late. You hear the announcement over the overhead speaker, you know, really unclearly, but the three twelve has been canceled. The three eighteen will be coming in on Platform 4 next. Four of my friends decided to jump down Mission Impossible style, run across the tracks up onto Platform 4. And I'm like, excuse my language, fuck that. So I've walked around because I'm not, none of a death wish. So I walk around. These girls were getting in trouble from our school captain and their names are getting taken down. And I'm like, well, for the first time ever, this it's not me getting in trouble. So I'm safe here. Two days later, I get called into the principal's office. Now, when you're naughty as I was, I was regularly in the vice principal's office because he's the person that does the discipline. Going to the principal's office was net. You knew it was next level. And when I went into that room, my mum was in there and now I'm like, here, this is really bad. And I'm like, I didn't even know what I've done at this point. It turns out that those girls completely colluded, threw me under the bus all the time, you know, that analogy and said, I told them to do it, tell them to do it. Why would I tell people to do something I wouldn't do myself, but because of who I had been and the behaviors that I demonstrated prior, I had been put in a box and they didn't believe me. And so I was expelled. So that's the expulsion story. But if we translate that across to sure, how does someone that got expelled in when they're 13 years old, who was failing everything? Cause I'd given up once I was behind on stuff, I just went, I'm not, I'm not going to bother. Then my mum found a new school for me to go to. And I swear to you, Joanne, it was on the first day. You're still nervous. You're in front of, this is a big school. So each grade had about 200 kids in it. So at the beginning of grade nine, standing there at the front of the whole view and, I had the coordinator or whomever it was said, okay, we have a new student joining us this year. Elizabeth. She comes from this school. So we expect great things from her because everyone knows it's a selective school. And I swear to you, I'm looking I'm looking over my shoulder. Is there another Elizabeth? Because no one expects great things from me. Well, at least they haven't for the last two years. And literally my life changed within weeks. I had teachers giving me great feedback and telling me I was doing a great job. And then you know what happened? Just, I got better and better and better and better until I was a great student. I covertly might've been a little bit rebellious, but nothing too bad after that. Joanne Lockwood: Your imposter syndrome is reinforced by, by people telling you you're, you're not good. So you don't, you don't, as you say, you don't fight back. You just go, oh no, I can't I'm rubbish. I'm rubbish. It was just like a death spiral from. And I've Dr. Liz Wilson: learned of, of over the last ten years through this ADHD diagnosis is that's part of that when you get criticism that you're hypersensitive to it. So you just don't have the, the normal resilience that someone else would have to criticism. Makes a whole percent. I mean, or anyway, like, ah, there's just so much stuff that when you, like, it might seem like nothing. I'm still the same person with ADHD, but once you get, and I, people call it, I don't like to call it a label, but once you get to understanding something more about yourself, you go, that is why I don't feel so bad about myself now because I know what is happening. And in fact, it makes it easier. Say for instance, my husband who is, on autism spectrum and has OCD and a whole bunch of other things. We talk about what, what else is wrong with us in this, in this house? But, because we're so different, but he understands why this is happening for me now. It makes it so much easier because he used to think I would do things out of spite. Like I'll give you a really good example. Let's say he emptied all the little small bins in the rooms on bin day, rubbish collection day. And then he would leave the empty one, this in my office at the door for me to put back it back in under my desk. And then I'd be back at my computer working and the bin would still be at the door. He goes, he thought I was doing it to spy him. I went, no, I didn't see it. He goes, you had to step over it. I go, didn't see it. My task was to get to my computer and work. And now he knows it's not me going, you didn't put my bin under my desk. It was me just, I just didn't see it. So anyway, there's a bit about that. I part of my identity, which is also a superpower because I can sit at my desk for eight hours straight and forget to eat and go to the toilet. So there is some great benefits to it as well. I love that. I love Joanne Lockwood: that. I suspect that I have some tendencies and I've never bothered exploring it. Because by the time I'd realized it, I was invested in my transgender identity. I didn't need another diagnosis for anything else. So I I just mixed the whole thing up, and I find I kind of understand myself now that, not the examples you give, I also would resonate with and, hyperfocus, get stuck into things. And also I'm a person I'm either a % in or a % out. If I'm not interested, if I get behind, I can't be, but I've done it. I've read it. I'm out. How can I play? I used to play darts and pool. And once I myself just feel as if I wasn't in the mood, I just wasn't interested in playing, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't care about winning. I didn't care about losing. I just want, well, do not play anymore. Whereas another day. I'm out. I get bored. So, Dr. Liz Wilson: yes, I hear you. And in fact, one of the things, so two things come to mind when you share that with me is that, you know, when you will go somewhere new and they'll go, what's your name? And some, some, some, what's your hobby. And my whole life, I didn't have something to share as a hobby. So I didn't have one. Right. Like I do things, but it's because I like to do all different things because they get bored with one thing. And I only realized that that's why I never had a hobby of late was because I just like to do new things all the time. So that's the getting bored or, you know, to always doing something new. But when we're looking at, when we talk about diagnoses of something, that's, it's not something that you've only just got. And people keep saying in the news or in the media or social media is that all these women in their forties are suddenly coming out and saying they've got ADHD. It's like this wave of like popularity. No, no. It's just because all the research was based on boys and diagnosis was focused on a certain set of behaviors. And then only of late has that research changed to include another gender. So that's where we're, that's why that's happening. But why it became so valuable to me is in my thesis, my anxiety had got out of control. So to a point that it wasn't just manifesting in its panic attacks, it actually was affecting me physically, physiologically. I was losing my hair. I had heart palpitations and it affected my cycles. I was seeing so many different specialists and doctors until someone, a GP, a general practitioner for those listening to primary care doctor for those in The US translating said to me, I think maybe we should try some antidepressants. I was just pressed. He goes, I think let's just, let's just see, trust me. And I just went on over and he gave me what I've researched now is the lightest dose of sertraline on the planet. And after two weeks of taking it, my brain. So forget about all the other stuff that was wrong with me physically. My brain, I went, is this what normal people feel like? Like I just went, it just took these layers off the top of my brain. And now in my forties, I've done the research. Sertraline is a treatment for people with ADHD. It's one of the options. And so suddenly we weren't just treating all of those other things and it wasn't depression or anxiety. That was a symptom of my ADHD had taken over control of my life. So that's why diagnosis just helped a lot. Yeah, I get it. I, I found that what cured my Joanne Lockwood: head of spinning around out of control was was estrogen. Once I started functioning on estrogen, were my or were my brain confusions sort of settled down? And, I still have some of the other issues, but it's all manageable. But, yeah, estrogen was the, the cure for me. Dr. Liz Wilson: Hormones are so important. And particularly if we soapbox for a little bit, X generation women entering into their perimenopause, later perimenopause years now and menopause, we were raised when the research was out there that says HRT or hormone replacement therapy was bad because it caused all these cancers. Well, in fact, that was a paper that got published that wasn't accurate. So putting it off is not the right thing to do. We need HRT, and that's not necessarily, it could be just hormones on estrogen and or progesterone, but we shouldn't avoid testosterone either. We need to make sure covering, we have to have a trace of that as well. Yeah, for sure. Anyway, well, that's not possible. We could, we could start this podcast again and, Joanne Lockwood: and, and do our whole thing on ADHD and, and, and hormones and things. So, yeah, we've both got, probably a a lift lived experience PhD in those. Liz, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been yacking on now for over an hour, and it's been fascinating to get to know you and hear your story. And I love your energy. And and as we predicted, we've got so many things that we resonate with and so many, shared thoughts. So it's been it's been fascinating for me, and I hope for listening, it's been fascinating for you as well. So just a quick rundown. How we get hold of you? Well, we've talked about LinkedIn a lot. LinkedIn Dr. Liz Wilson: is I have often said when I've been in workshops or keynotes, if you send me an email, you're fighting with a lot of emails, but if you message me on LinkedIn, I come from the Blackberry era. So if there's a red dot on my messages on LinkedIn, I go and find them and I answer. So if you wanna find me on LinkedIn, Doctor. Liz Wilson, I'm there. Let's have a chat. I'm always open to having the conversation. Joanne Lockwood: And I'll put stuff in the show notes around your strategic inclusion practitioner and your strategic inclusion playbook programs. Dr. Liz Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. I only just launched the strategic inclusion practitioner program last week, just so that everybody across the world who's working in inclusion has access to what I do. So it's just not me doing it. I wanna just give everybody the capability to do strategic inclusion transformations. So you wanna put, Pennsylvania Joanne Lockwood: Avenue, bloke in charge, and chuck it in the first year? And do say, I I would be a good Dr. Liz Wilson: running ticket in The US. I'm just not a citizen. Yeah. That's Joanne Lockwood: true. And we know how the we know how the the current incumbent gets really upset if anyone's not a citizen. Correct. Well, you know, Dr. Liz Wilson: we we could be on the line here too. We're in limbo right now with our visa. So we may be coming to The UK to a venue near you soon. Wow. You know, there's a a lot of great places. Yeah. There's Cotswolds Joanne Lockwood: and other places around that beautiful. Scotland's nice. I've already Dr. Liz Wilson: voted for Paul. Sorry. Paul. South coast. I'm not far from there. So Joanne Lockwood: in Portsmouth, so about hour and a half from Paul on the South Coast. Yeah. It's a good place to live. Dorset's good. Jurassic coast. Lots of dinosaur bones. It was an absolute joy to have a Dr. Liz Wilson: conversation with you today. I and I actually hope that we can keep in contact. I, I think we could talk underwater for three days straight. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And well, you said you got podcasts. Let's get me back on and I can talk about, some of my lived experience and, see if we can get trolled for a laugh. Yeah. I think we could make it our goal. Thanks so Dr. Liz Wilson: much for your time today. Liz, thank you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.