---
title: "Raising Voices, Shaping Change"
episode: 157
date: 2025-05-01
guest: "Sara McCracken"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/157-raising-voices-shaping-change
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-157/audio.mp3
---

# Raising Voices, Shaping Change

Joanne Lockwood is joined by PR and communications specialist Sarah McCracken to explore how public relations can be used as a genuine tool for meaningful change, rather than “spin.” They unpack how organisations and individuals can align what they do with what they say publicly, build credibility, and communicate with intention in a noisy media landscape. The conversation looks at what makes a story land: clarity of purpose, a defined audience, and human interest. Sarah shares practical approaches to reputation management and campaigning, including when to avoid public arguments, how to myth-bust without amplifying misinformation, and why listening to stakeholders matters as much as broadcasting messages. They also discuss visibility and confidence, especially for women and marginalised voices, touching on imposter feelings, building a voice on platforms like LinkedIn, and using small, consistent steps to grow influence. Along the way, they reflect on lobbying, speaking directly to decision-makers, and why emotional storytelling often shifts behaviour more effectively than facts alone.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Campaigning for Change in Northern Ireland
- 07:13 — "Embrace Authenticity in Self-Expression"
- 13:42 — Misinformation Concerns in Social Media
- 18:51 — Engage Politicians with Your Cause
- 21:58 — Storytelling's Impact in Advocacy
- 28:31 — Effective Communication for Change Advocacy
- 35:34 — Social Media: A Double-Edged Sword
- 40:04 — "Evaluating Advice and Its Impact"
- 43:55 — Overcoming Writing Anxiety
- 52:37 — "Empowering Women Through Confidence"
- 54:59 — Boosting Credibility Through PR
- 01:00:34 — "Join the Inclusion Journey"

## Key takeaways

- The transformative power of communications in driving legislative and societal change through well-crafted campaigns.
- Why aligning internal values with external reputation is non-negotiable for sustainable organisational credibility.
- Tactics for responding to negative PR and misinformation, balancing myth-busting with maintaining focus on your own narrative.
- How emotional storytelling bridges the logic–emotion gap and mobilises support for inclusion and diversity initiatives.
- The intersection of visibility and confidence—practical steps for amplifying underrepresented voices and overcoming imposter syndrome.
- Navigating the risks and rewards of social media: from leveraging platforms for positive impact to managing backlash with intention.
- Actionable advice for individuals and organisations on advocating effectively with stakeholders, including politicians and the media, to promote lasting inclusion.

## FAQs

### What is this episode of Inclusion Bites about?

This episode, entitled "Raising Voices, Shaping Change," explores the intersection of PR, communication, and diversity, with a focus on empowering underrepresented voices to create meaningful change. Host Joanne Lockwood is joined by Sarah McCracken, a PR and communications specialist, to discuss strategies for authentic messaging, reputation management, responding to negative media, and building inclusive, visible brands.

### Who is the guest, Sarah McCracken, and what is her expertise?

Sarah McCracken is an award-winning PR and communication specialist based in Northern Ireland. Her expertise lies in empowering women and diverse voices to build confidence in their visibility, raise their profiles, and drive change through effective communication. Sarah has worked across sectors—healthcare, environment, politics, and business—and is committed to aligning organisational values with public perception.

### Why is visibility important in PR, especially for underrepresented or marginalised groups?

Visibility ensures that a wide range of perspectives are seen and heard, challenging the dominance of traditional or majority narratives. For marginalised groups, it’s about finding confidence in one’s voice and encouraging authentic storytelling that resonates with wider audiences, while breaking down barriers to representation.

### How can organisations avoid the pitfalls of inauthenticity or “spin” in PR?

The key lies in alignment: ensure internal brand values and external messaging match. PR should not be about projecting a false image but about managing reputation authentically and engaging with stakeholders honestly. As Sarah notes, “If you have a really shoddy reputation, no amount of PR is going to help that. You will get found out.” Avoiding empty “spin doctor” tactics in favour of transparent communication is crucial.

### What steps can be taken to respond to negative or misleading narratives in the media, especially regarding diversity and inclusion?

Sarah highlights the risk of amplifying misinformation through direct confrontation. Instead, she advocates for: 
Telling your own organisation’s story with clarity and confidence 
Myth-busting through evidence-based messaging 
Educating and lobbying decision-makers (e.g., politicians), not just reacting in the public sphere 
Importantly, choose your engagements wisely and don’t validate misinformation by repeating it unnecessarily.

### What practical approaches can individuals and organisations take to increase their visibility?

Start by identifying what you want to be known for and who your target audience is 
Use social media strategically—choose platforms where your audience is active 
Share stories that blend evidence with emotional resonance for maximum impact 
Don’t be afraid to reach out for media appearances, collaborate with journalists, and engage in public affairs 
Overcome the fear of self-promotion; as both Joanne and Sarah note, finding your voice is a journey that starts with small, intentional steps.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 157 with the title, Raising Voices, Shaping Change. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sarah McCracken. Sarah is an award winning PR and communication specialist, empowering women and diverse voices to raise their profiles and create meaningful change. And when I asked Sarah to describe her superpower, she said she said that it is helping others find confidence in their visibility and voice. Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you

Sarah McCracken: so much for having me this afternoon. Oh, it's absolute

Joanne Lockwood: pleasure. And, for the accent, I'm guessing you're for the Emerald Isle somewhere in there. Yes. Indeed. I

Sarah McCracken: am in County Down, Northern Ireland, and we're about maybe 25 miles south of Belfast. So nice nice and handy. And, you know, if I'm going further south, we're maybe about an hour and twenty minutes from Dublin, so I really have the best of those worlds here. Beautiful. My wife and I

Joanne Lockwood: went on a a holiday to Dublin in the summer, and we drove north to the because they don't have national trust in Dub in in Southern Ireland, in The Republic Of Ireland. So we had to drive across the border to Northern Ireland to find a national trust property, which we visited. It was quite high. A a trek from County Cowan, but, yeah, we were determined to find a national trust property to visit and, yeah, had a good time. And I've been to Belfast a few times, and I've got happy memories of going to Newfernard, which can't be far from here. You're never far from anywhere

Sarah McCracken: here, to be honest. But, yes, next time you're over then, we'll have to meet up and get a week of tea. Yeah. That sounds great. Sounds great. If you're

Joanne Lockwood: listening to this and you're wondering why my voice sounds a little different to usual, I think I've got a bit of a throat thing going on. So every so often, my voice cuts out. So please bear with sure. I'll be fine. As a I've got strep cells. I've got herbal tea in front of me, so I'm sure we cope. So Sarah Sarah, what makes you tick? You know, why do you do what you do? You know, you're in in PR, but why does visibility, diversity, inclusion resonate with you so much? But but the more I did, the more I headed towards, like,

Sarah McCracken: the PR and marketing side of things, and I just absolutely love it. I get such a buzz out of, you know, seeing things in the media, prepping spokespeople, seeing you know, prepping people to go on podcast, but it whatever it happens to be. Just the more I worked within sort of the communication sector, you know, the more I was able to to create that change. So I've worked in the health care sector, the environment sector. I worked for a political party. Once upon a time, I worked in education as well as working for businesses and entrepreneurs. The more I worked in that, the more I could see how communications could create change, particularly around campaigning. So, I mean, many years ago, you could smoke in public workplaces, in Northern Ireland, obviously, right across The UK. And in 02/2006, the charity I worked with at the time was involved in the smoke free Northern Ireland coalition and that campaign to bring in legislation to ban smoking in public places. And that was kind of my first kind of we can do this kind of moment, you know, when you're there at a speech and the secretary of state is making these announcements, and you've got your your clients from from the charity with you. You and the stakeholders of people are gonna be really impacted for the better as a result of this, and it was just brilliant to be part of that. So, yeah, since then, I've worked on other campaigns most recently working on the campaign to bring in climate change legislation in Northern Ireland, which was brought in now full of years ago, and my team at the charity I worked with at the time worked really hard on that as well. Oh, sounds really

Joanne Lockwood: interesting. I love the idea of alpaca farm. Some reason, my my daughter keeps a couple years ago, she she bought me a a present, which was taking the alpacas for a walk, and I've I've got a little alpacas to see over there. But, yeah, it's, is that an alpaca jumper you're wearing at the moment? We we'd go to shows and, you know, we'd have them on the

Sarah McCracken: stand, and I'd be talking to people like yourself who just love alpacas. Never took one for a walk, so I'm not sure that would have ended terribly well, but they are very docile. Because this is getting on to a whole other podcast episode here, but they're they're very amenable. They're very docile. They do make good pets. They're probably easier to manage than sheep. So they're you know, people do absolutely love them. Yeah. You're right. We've got a bit off topic

Joanne Lockwood: there. They've versed in all packets. Yeah. So PR. I mean, I'm I'm a great believer that organizations need authenticity in their in their brand, their values, their messaging. And a lot, I I guess, is is PR trying to align internal who do we think we are versus the external public. Who do they think we are and trying to get that alignment of messaging, isn't it? That that's not always easy. No. No. It's not. And, you know, when

Sarah McCracken: I'm doing PR training, I'm always sort of tell telling people or working with them to understand that, you know, if you have a really shoddy reputation, no amount of PR is gonna help that. You will get found out. So it is, like you said, about aligning what are your business goals with what you want to project in the public domain and making sure that those are aligned. But, you know, n is n is n is n dodgy, n is n underhand. You're you're gonna get caught out. I I do have an issue with the word spin. Do you know that that that doesn't help when people refer to PR people as you spin doctors, particularly in the in the political sphere. But, it is about working really hard just to find out what it is. What is that change you're trying to make in the world and breaking that down and working out what communications? Who can you engage with? What is it you want to say, and how might you say it to your target audience just to to create that change or raise that profile or increase that visibility? The spin that you're referring to there, I suppose,

Joanne Lockwood: is is is crafting a message in a positive light, I suppose, is the, the translation of the word spinner. It could be, but, again,

Sarah McCracken: you've referred to that authenticity. Again, I struggle with the word authentic because it sounds like you're trying too hard. So for me, you know, if I'm working, if I'm coaching with individuals, it's about how to be yourself and just bring forward all the really the good things about what you do and what you say and just trying trying to emphasize that rather than be something that you're not because because that could be really difficult as well. But, yes, be being authentic is key. Being yourself, I do love a bit of LinkedIn content, I have to say, and I I will equally post about PR today, and I will post about my chickens tomorrow because because because that's that's who I happen to be. I must do an alpaca post actually, overdue one of those. Walking with alpacas.

Joanne Lockwood: I think that's the title of a book. I was like, yeah. I have to author that one. So when you're when you're working with organizations, you know, we're trying to avoid the word spin. We're trying to avoid the words authenticity or authentic. Where do organizations go wrong? I mean, I think we've implied that, sometimes what happens is they try and pretend to be what they're not. How do you encourage them to to move past that and be honest or or actually change, or actually change their output?

Sarah McCracken: Yeah. I I think the first step for me is about recognizing what PR actually is. PR is about managing your reputation. It is about engaging with your stakeholders so that is speaking with them as well as listening to what they have to say. So it it sits alongside your marketing and advertising mix. So marketing is clearly about selling stuff as as is advertising. So it is different to that. But in terms of, you know, working with the businesses, it's about just trying to identify what is it is they're trying to achieve and how can communications help that. So we've got all the marketing going on, and you've got the adverts and the Facebook stuff. But equally, who do you need to be listening to? What kind of messages do you want to create about your your product business or service that you need to be speaking to your audience about? And it could be be trying to work with a politician to bring about legislative change, or it could be about working with an individual who just wants to, you know, get that confidence to raise their profile and visibility and just the principles are the same. You know, what's the outcome you want to achieve and then working through how we might achieve that. You said you said that marketing's all about selling stuff I

Joanne Lockwood: can hear. Yeah. Every marketing person out, they go, no. We're more just selling stuff. We're here to create a brand and position the brand and Absolutely. Brand values. And that will help sell stuff, I think.

Sarah McCracken: I I actually did a a talk last week to some marketing students, and I I I did I did ask them, you know, what was their take on marketing. So we're very forthcoming, to be honest. But, yes, I do love working with my marketing colleagues. And and, again, with complimentary skills, which is really important as well. So when you are developing that overall, you know, communications plan, if you like, there will be a marketing element to it. There will be a PR element to it. So the two go really well hand in hand.

Joanne Lockwood: At large extent, PRs are a bit harder to to nail down and look at ROI, isn't it? You are just literally throwing information out there. You're you're issuing press releases. You're issuing position papers and statements. Journalists, you got cat stuck up tree is not worthy of printing it in news. It's gotta be shock horror. You're always going for something that in it's a headline. It's challenging, isn't it? Because PR doesn't work. It's just all it's gotta be different.

Sarah McCracken: Absolutely. But, again, PR is so much more than just that media aspect to it. But, I mean, I I do love the the media work. I deliver a lot of, you know, how to write a press release training. So we're always talking about what is the news story that we're trying to get out there. Like you said, you know, is it just another cat stuck up a tree? Now maybe it's it's an escaped lynx up a tree. That would make a really good story. So it's just understanding, you know, what what what's the human interest You know, is it topical and timely? Like, we had that massive storm a couple of weeks ago. So many stories in circulation about that. Just making sure it's it's, yeah, of value to the media outlets listeners as well as trying to get it in front of of your audience as well. But, yeah, media work is brilliant. Love it.

Joanne Lockwood: You're you're trying to come at it from a wrong. You're trying to fetch human interest out of out of whatever you're saying, to to engage me in some way positively or negatively, if if you're looking for that. You're you're trying to get me to you get me to pay attention to something is kind of the the mission, is it? Absolutely.

Sarah McCracken: So if if we focus just on press releases, so the the the Trist test as I call it, is is your story topical and timely? You know, is it really relevant to the journalist, to the newspaper, as as well as to your audience? You know, just because you think it's good, doesn't make it newsworthy. Is it unique? If you know yourself from scanning the headlines, you know, it it's new things that that really get the headlines that, get the stories. And then also, is it, is there a human interest to it as well? It's always, you know, triumph of a tragedy. Do you know who has been affected by this? So you might have, an initiative that's going to help 10,000 people secure a new medical treatment. May not that's just brilliant. Or you might have something, you've received an investment of x tens of thousand millions of pounds to produce a new product that's going to save whatever it is. Those are all things then that will feed into your story. So so, yes, when it comes to the media, it's about making sure your story is newsworthy and then understanding where you're going to place it. So a BBC approach is very, very different to a local newspaper approach, which is very different than to a podcast approach. But the principles then are still the same. Have you got something of benefit to that outlet and their target audience?

Joanne Lockwood: So we're living in a world where diversity, equity, inclusion, DEI, it's going through a bout of bad PR, isn't it? It's become a very toxic term. And I I'd almost say that the the right wing anti woke brigade have kind of stolen a bit of a march on on DEI and toxifies that as a brand. And that's probably happened over the last couple of years more rapidly, the last two or three months is from what I've seen in the in the press and the papers. How do they how do they how do they manage to do that so softly or so overtly? It'd be like Do you know they're they're

Sarah McCracken: happy to make statements that are incorrect? They're happy to make statements that they know are going to offend people. So maybe just maybe on the lower left hand side, shall we say people are maybe more repicent to offend? Because because we know, you know, what happens if you get language wrong and how how upset people will be over that. You know, we know the potential implications if if if we inadvertently do something that isn't gonna land well. So so maybe there's a bit of overthinking there. But from what I can see, like you said, from the news agenda at the minute is, it's just it's free for all, and people are saying what they want, which is just not necessarily true. And then we're losing all the the the fact checkers as well off social media platforms, which is quite frightening in itself. Because then where do where do I go to get facts verified? Where do my children go who who aren't as new savvy? You know, if they're reading stuff on socials, they're not on socials yet, but they will be soon. But how do we help young people even understand the difference between this is factually correct and this is just a load of nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. But it's how do you you argue

Joanne Lockwood: back against this, if you like, negative PR onslaught? Because as you say, people just say what they want without any punches almost, just just putting this out there. So if you're if you're hearing negative PR against you or about your organization, about what you believe in, direct confrontation, is is that is that the tactic or putting out a myth busting? Or How would you suggest? It's really, really

Sarah McCracken: difficult. I mean, let let's let's be realistic about it. There there's an argument that if you are then to say, oh, so and so said x, y, and zed, and here's why that's incorrect, You're actually giving credibility to what they have said that's incorrect because you're repeating it. So you need to think really carefully in and around that. My own approach should be not to pick, a public fight, particularly, like, over Twitter or x. Do people even still use that? I am off it. But, again, it's understanding where's the benefit of getting into a public dispute versus is it, you know, defamatory, libelous, in which case that's gonna be a court case. But it's just knowing what your options are. But in terms of that myth busting, yes, there there's a need to start, I think, to look really carefully at what the messaging actually is and who we're trying to target and how that message is getting out there as well. So it's maybe not a direct confrontation, but it's it's certainly upping the game in terms of getting those messages out there. Maybe it is through TikTok. Maybe it is through another social channel, but I really just being as bold, shall we say, as as the other side, and just really starting to take action then to to get the messaging right. There are some organizations out there who do do fact checking as we know and myth busting. I mean, Lynn is an agency based in Cardiff, actually. They work globally to try and counter some of those myths, and disinformation, particularly around you. They they work through COVID. They've done some on climate change, as well. So there there are good people out there trying to do this, but for an individual organization, you need to weigh up the pros and cons. You know, how is it gonna impact on your reputation? If you do take this particular stand, How will it impact on your reputation if you take that particular stand? And just working through the pros and cons of each and getting that balance and then having a way of doing it that that you can sleep well at night knowing that you have done your best to stand up for what you believe in. What I'm here what I'm here, I think, saying there

Joanne Lockwood: is tell your own story. Don't necessarily engage in somebody else's story. Keep being the best version of you, your organization you can be, and not and not try and challenge each individual statement because all you'll end up doing is get caught up in denials and counter denials and giving them the ammunition to come back on you with it yet another wild statement, I guess. And it's exhausting if you start that. And

Sarah McCracken: what you've just described as as being authentic, it's it's being yourself. You know, this is who I am and having that confidence to you. And that can be really difficult as well, just to start to say, no, this is what I believe, and this is what I stand for. So again, it's it's how do you do it so that you know that you can make a difference in the world, that you can bring your colleagues with you. How can you build that movement? How can you mobilize people to come onto your site as well? But, yeah, you do you and do it really, really well. And then again, because you're being yourself and because there's no gray areas, then then it's really hard to start to, you know, not attack the person up. That's not right the free phrasing, but it's it's really hard then to start to pick holes in what it is they're saying if it's, you know, if it's evidence based, if it's factually correct. What

Joanne Lockwood: worries me at the moment is that there is no filter, and some of these statements are being green lighted by the mainstream media politicians. And it's really hard sometimes to actually get the facts and the truth out of these. You know, if you're if you're sat there as a a person in the street looking up this, there's a lot of lot of stuff going on at the moment, which is, you know, whether we talk about vaccines, climate change, gender, all these kind of things, all all in the news at the moment have become polarizing people, reach the extremes. Yeah. So,

Sarah McCracken: again, it's understanding who's your target audience. Who do you want to speak to about these things? So rather than picking a fight in the media, I said, I love campaigning. I love the public affairs side of things. So so maybe as a business or an organization, you're doing some really good work and you should be engaging with your local politician no matter where they are in The UK or even across the world. You know? So if, you know, say there was a debate coming up in Westminster on gender or violence against women or whatever, you know, area of interest that, that your organization has, I would be encouraging you to, to write a briefing, to be engaging with your local MP, to be engaging with the people who are gonna be speaking to this motion and informing them of the actual facts of the matter. And then that, that will help them because I would suggest the majority of politicians, they don't want to stand up and say the wrong thing. They don't want to be then slated in the media the next day by citing facts and figures that are incorrect because it does it does you know, that's still a possibility. So, again, you can take action that way. So it's it's it's not into the media. It is direct into the people who will be speaking about an issue that that affects what it is that you do. So that's

Joanne Lockwood: that's part of lobbying. So what you're doing is you're giving a position paper, statement of facts, evidence, citations directly to a politician or to an organization. Say, this is our truth. We want you to process this and form an opinion from it. Yep. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's that's what the people doing the negatively are doing, isn't it? They're creating the same the same information. So it's it's counteracting it with your story, not arguing someone else's story. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I find that politicians, they want to be

Sarah McCracken: well informed. They they generally want to engage with, you know, charities, community groups, you know, people, you know, in in whatever sphere they happen to be. I have an example in some of the public affairs training that I do do, and it's about this the amount of spend that, oil companies, spend on lobbying on climate change. I mean, it's tens of millions of dollars. So, again, like you just said, the other side is lobbying away. So there's nothing to stop us from doing that as well. You know, we're voters. We're citizens. MPs work for you. So, again, get in there and start to help them understand the challenges that that you're facing and you don't be needing those tens of millions of dollars either. You can go direct to them through their constituency, through their Westminster offices. It's all open access, and just go for it. Write them a letter, send them a letter. That's the one. Invite them out to your to your community group, you know, invite them into your premises, sit down and have a cup of tea and a chat about what the challenges are and just help move the conversation forward. Oh,

Joanne Lockwood: yes. It's all about what I say. The facts don't change people. So it's trying to cross that bridge between the emotion and the logic, isn't it? And that's that's the challenge we have. Because if if the facts change me, I I wouldn't drive too fast. I wouldn't eat red meat. I'd be go for a run every day. I'd be healthy. But the reality is I haven't got the emotional connection with some of those things. That's how does PR bridge that emotion versus logic gap? That comes back to how you tell your

Sarah McCracken: story, your your storyteller. So, yeah, like you said, if I send you, you know, a two page briefing document, if you've written all the bullet points about the issues, yeah. I'll, I'll skim read it. I might pick up the headline and that'll be it. But if I sit down with somebody or if I was to brief a spokesperson to go in and have a conversation with a journalist, with a politician, whoever it happens to be, and have them tell their story, then then that's gonna have a much bigger impact. So say you're working on an issue in connection with, young carers, which is an an issue I've I've worked on previously. You know, you need to get the young people telling their story about the impacts that caring for their their family member has on them. And that is so much more powerful than than you or I telling their story on on their behalf. Yeah. I think we're

Joanne Lockwood: seeing a lot of stuff in the media at the moment around toxic behavior in the workplace. Obviously, we had a big push. Sara Everard, Me Too movement. These kind of but we're seeing some more recent, displays of toxicity coming out. How do people know they're not alone? How how can we how can we get people to trust that they will be heard? Because that's that's part of the problem as well, isn't it? Trust. Absolutely. And,

Sarah McCracken: again, knowing that other people are going through what you have gone through, I think is really important. So the first step for me and I I have faced some very toxic, workplace environments. And the first step for me is always telling somebody. So it might be a trusted colleague or it might be somebody completely unconnected with work. Could be a WhatsApp, could be, you know, whatever it hap a cup of tea in a chat, whatever it happens to be. But once you speak it into existence, I guarantee you'll find out that somebody else is going through something similar. And it's by talking it through, then you can start to understand what your potential options might be. I think that the me too movement is, you know, particularly interesting because every single day there is yet another story. There is yet another article out there of something that has clearly gone wrong somewhere that I I use the phrase hiding in plain sight quite a lot. You know, the perpetrators are hiding in plain sight. So again, the more we talk about it, the more we can share experiences and the more that we can mobilize and and come together to tackle whatever the issue happens to be. In the paper again is, a a

Joanne Lockwood: previously senior royal family member who, for whatever reason, seems to keep having a negative story about them in relation to past acquaintances, people who are proved to be, mind my words here, involved with sexual offenses potentially in the past. So is there a danger sometimes that we we think we can put a veneer over the story and hope that people are gonna wash with it? But the reality is if if you don't go deep enough and cut hard enough and and expose yourself deep enough the first time, it could be death by a thousand cuts. People are gonna come back on you. They're gonna keep digging and digging and digging and until they really get to the bone. And I think that's what we're seeing with this particular individual at the moment. It's, they weren't authentic. Even if you don't like that word.

Sarah McCracken: Maybe they were. Yeah. They were lying. Maybe

Joanne Lockwood: well, maybe that's a strong word. Yeah. They they weren't telling the whole truth. Let's put it that way. Oh, they're telling their version of it. Yeah. I mean, for

Sarah McCracken: a journalist, that's the story that keeps on giving. But but I think, put putting that to one side, I I think this is where the value of understanding PR and communications really comes in, you know, as as a business, as an individual. And again, back to the thing, if you're doing something wrong, you're gonna get found out. So working with individuals who are, you know, nice people. If you have somebody on your side who understands the media landscape, then they can they can advise you on, is it a good idea to do an interview like that one that we're talking about? Probably not. But clearly, they're not listening, and they've gone ahead and done it. So, again, it's it's working with our trusted comms adviser as to where be the best place to tell my story. So it could be a news night story. It could be in the Guardian. It could be on a on a podcast somewhere. But, again, having somebody on your side help prep for it, is also useful. And, again, media training isn't about learning how to lie on camera. It's it's about how to answer the questions. It's about how to come across as the type of person that you really are to the listeners. It's helping you bridge between the awkward questions that that that are gonna be pending. And if you've done something wrong, front it up. You know, you can admit your mistake and you can come out better than, making up stories and talking nonsense. That's getting ahead, control of the

Joanne Lockwood: narrative, owning your story again, isn't it? It's kinda what you're saying there.

Sarah McCracken: Oh, absolutely. And it's back to what is it you're trying to achieve. If something's gone wrong, it it it's gone wrong. That's where your crisis comes come in comes into play. It is gonna affect your reputation, as an individual or as an organization. So again, it's just understanding how things work and you will come through it. But again, it's how then you then in in the future then start to rebuild that reputation, rebuild that visibility, in a positive manner as well. Yeah. I suppose in my experience, when things have gone

Joanne Lockwood: wrong, they go worse. The more you try and dig, don't they? And I I think especially when you're very much in the public eye, there are people with a vested interest to keep digging. And I think that's that's the problem we find is that you're better off just telling the truth, resigning, running away, hiding for a bit, and then coming back again. Obviously, it's not a career. Career limiting, but but yeah. You It was a genuine individual trying to create that change in the world. Are,

Sarah McCracken: are we then worrying too much about the consequences when, you know, those with much thicker skins who are now running other countries, shall we say, are just carrying on putting out those incorrect messages.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Talking about people with tics getting running other countries. It's it's incredible what's going on at the moment where it said they seem to be oblivious or consciously oblivious to, messages going out. They're so focused on their version of the truth. And that, I think you've mentioned that just now. It's your perspective. It's your version of the truth. If you get, if you really believe it and become invested in it, then you say it with confidence, don't you? And I think you're not willing to listen to other people's versions. And, again, you're controlling the narrative. You're not negotiating. You're you're owning that that stance, I think. It's it's quite a powerful technique, isn't it? Although I'm not not saying I advocate it, but it's a powerful technique. Yeah. And I mean, what can we learn from that? So

Sarah McCracken: if others maybe with a more aspect to their personalities who who wanted to create positive change in the world, if if they started to take on some of those characteristics and be really forceful and forthright in what they want to say, would that help those messages, land better? Might have to give it a go. But again, it's not getting into that public argument. Who do we need to be targeting? How do you really sort of hone in on who you need to be speaking to and then building from the ground up? I think certainly that's, you know, if you can mobilize the masses on your side as well, that starts to help as well. So it could be a hundred people, it could be five people, could be a million people, whatever it happens to be to start to to build that change that that that we need. The problem with that position is it's

Joanne Lockwood: quite a privilege to have that that that communications power. People were talking about, you know, we're touching on EDI, DNI, diversity inclusion here. And one of the challenges we find where people are marginalized, they are voiceless. They don't have the access to these rooms, these people, these channels. So often the PR goes or the messaging goes undefended because no one's listening. They can't get the message out.

Sarah McCracken: Yeah. And that's something that shouldn't be happening. I mean, in terms of the media, in terms of politicians, you know, any single person can start to build a relationship with a journalist or a politician. But again, it's understanding that that that is an option open to you. So I suppose there's an education piece there as well. You does it start within a community? Does it start with with within schools to try and educate our young people better as to, you know, they they do have the power in their hands, but it's it's how we get them to understand how they can use it then for the benefit. But but you're absolutely right. It's it's people with no voice or marginalized voices are struggling to get that messaging out there in terms of the change we need to see. So what can you and I in a position of privilege do to help them? And that that's part of what I'm about. That's why I would run master classes on how to raise your visibility. You know, it's why I'm trying to put content out of my socials to really help people get the basics of PR, and then, hopefully, they will take that then and start to use it for themselves.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I agree. And that's what we gotta do. We gotta, believe we're not alone, team up. But the danger the danger I found is that and I I've had it to me. I I do a lot of media stuff. I even go on GB News occasionally and, I put my put myself in the lion's den and get abused by the guest and placenta sometimes. And a word that keeps being thrown at me is I'm an activist. So just start throwing that word at somebody. It creates a stereotype. It creates a devaluation of my view. It implies that I'm fighting and angry and protesting. I'm mobilizing. All these kind of words spring to mind, and the imagery suddenly pops into your head. This person's a a thug or whatever. There's all the nice people. They're wearing suits and ties. They're reasonable. They're lovely people. An activist comes us up some sort of a narcic person, I think. That's the danger sometimes of creating a a mob, even even a well mannered mob. That that's an interesting

Sarah McCracken: one. I said, are you gonna be throwing, you know, tomato sip over the Mona Lisa for just stop oil? You know, that that that's an activist. Interestingly enough, I am currently working for the Climate Coalition at the minute, for great big green week, which is taking place at the June. And the theme is let's swap together for good. So it's how can how can we, I don't know, swap fossil fuels for solar panels? How can we as a community come together to, you know, develop? And I soar into beautiful pollinator rich, area that that people can enjoy. And it's exactly that. The people participating in that are not activists in that sense of the word of, you know, I with with placards. They're they're quietly getting on with it. They're quietly making the changes to target, climate change and and improve nature. So so that's exactly right. How do we how do we develop the messaging around that? How do we create that story of what they're doing to show that anybody can make change, and you don't have to be tuning yourself to the brilliance. You can if you want. No. You know, I'm not standing your way. No. I'll bring you a cup of tea while while you're stood there. I'm not letting whoever it is through. You know, it's it's it's there's millions of people out there who are quietly getting on with it, quietly making the changes that we need to say. And again, how do we celebrate that? How do we find those stories? How do we get those into the public domain? Because those could be pretty powerful. And I think it's back to what we already talked about. How do we, do we start to speak it into existence and start discussing these things with each other? And then you say, oh, yes. They're doing that. And I'm doing that too. And we're doing it together. You things then will start to build momentum from that. As

Joanne Lockwood: you talk about climate change, Alan, as you're talking, I'm thinking, Greta Thunberg. And how are the negative stereotypes around her, being an activist, being young, being autistic, suddenly, what does she know? She's a scruffy little teenager sitting on the street with a placard where we've got all these scientists who know far more, and she's just causing trouble. And I think I was watching, Ed Miliband on the news last last, and there's negative stuff coming out about him. It's all trying to government need to get rid of him because he's crazy, and he's he's come up with all these harebrained climate ideas. It's like so you can see that the lobby groups are out there counter briefing these positive green energy, positive sustainability stories. And you sometimes have to lean back and think, what are they trying to sell me? What's this story trying to sell me? It's trying to sell me. Oil is good. Fossil fuels are good. Power is good. Incumbency is good. This new found stuff is bad because it's not not what we make money out of. And it's, protectionism about the status quo some of it, isn't it? That's a very cynical and probably

Sarah McCracken: very accurate way way of looking at things, I would suggest. Yeah. But it's it's back to what we talked about. Your negativity sells. Do you know there's no point in running a story about, oh, how great it is with three bees in the garden? But yeah. And, again, for for a communication specialist, it's it's it's how we take positive stories and turn them into something that we can pitch the media, that we we can create content around and get on the socials and get out of that bubble of of of negativity. So, yeah, there is a skill to it. I mean, anybody can do PR. I'm happy to teach you the basics, but it's, you know, by building up those relationships with journalists, it's by building up relationships with with our politicians that we can really start to make the meaningful change that that we need to see. Of course, we

Joanne Lockwood: live in a world of, social media. We're all journalists. We're all publishers. We all have access. It's it's it's just learning that you you can't have a voice, and you don't have to change the world. You just gotta change one or two people and create create a movement. Yeah, be that activist if you wanna be an actress. But we don't have to be silent, do we?

Sarah McCracken: Absolutely not. And social media is is a gift in in that sense. I mean, back in the day when I used to fax press releases, you know, when it was harder to get your story out there, we we all now have a direct line to whoever it is that we want to talk to. Now notwithstanding the algorithms and they keep feeding you content, you know, that they think you're going to like, there is a way out there to to to get in touch with people to to create those profiles, that movement, like like you just alluded to, which is absolutely brilliant. I mean, there's a negative side to it as well. I did a talk last week to some masters students basically reminding them not to post nonsense on social media because it could really jeopardize their careers in the future. You know, which stories start to resurface. So there there's pros and cons to socials, but I I personally think the pros outweigh the cons, especially if we use it intentionally to educate, to inform, to build connections. And I've met so many really awesome people through social media from all different spheres, all all different types of organizations. So so there's so many people out there that are doing good things that we can connect with. And, yeah, like you said, choosing your social media platform appropriately can really help take that story forward. We met on social media. We found it

Joanne Lockwood: on Facebook somehow, don't we? So, yeah, it's, it's awesome people connect. That's brilliant. I think the word you picked up there was the intentionality or intentional. So you're not just shooting from the hip. You're being measured, intentional. You understand about the impact over over and above your intent, what you're trying to get out of it. It's when you go half baked and you're speaking from the emotion, from your amygdala kicks in, your vagus nerve kicks in, you kinda you're angry and feisty. And I wanna have I wanna tell you teach you a lesson there. That's when it kind of goes a bit pear shaped.

Sarah McCracken: Potentially, yes. I'm smiling to myself here. You you know when you get an email into the inbox from maybe somebody in work and they've just wound you up the wrong way and you hit the reply instantly, you know, that that's when it can go pear shaped. Social media is an interesting one. And and and, yes, you know, as a as as a PR lead, you know, I would be advising you, you know, not to respond to that comment immediately. It's maybe just wait and see. You know, is the story going to play out? Because when you do respond, with emotion, you might perpetuate the story. Whereas if you maybe just let it sit ten minutes, twenty minutes, twenty four hours, whatever it happens to be, it it could just then fizzle out. And you'll definitely feel better when you've gone away and made yourself a cup of tea and then come back to it. But it can be difficult, especially if people are attacking you personally. And and again, maybe there's different coping mechanisms when you look at them, which is just not reading the comments. It's it's like old New Theater critics and you don't don't don't read the reviews after the first night. You know, should you be reading your restaurant reviews? But you know what? If if people are attacking you, it's really, really hard. But again, so taking that deep breaths, moral high ground, and then coming back to it with a with an actual plan of of how you might counter the story. I mean, if it's defamatory or libelous, you use a potential court case in your hand and you don't want to be jeopardized in that. Or if it's just low grade irritations, you maybe just have to choose to ignore it, which which is difficult. I've been thinking back

Joanne Lockwood: to another recent story that where someone obviously was pausing and reflecting and the story just got worse while they were keeping quiet. It was the, former Archbishop of Canterbury, if I remember rightly. He, he came out, We stood up at the House of Lords and joked and laughed. So completely inappropriate messaging, but you could see the momentum building about you could see the trajectory was, he's gonna end up resigning. And you wonder somehow whether he either wasn't listening to his advisers, or they were believing their own PR that they could ride this out. But clearly, by the hour, it was deteriorating. I think, well, it's only a matter of time now before he resigned, and then sure enough, he resigned. So that that's often the case for politicians as well as where they're trying to cling on that or that or just hoping that if they keep quiet and don't react, it will just blow over. But it doesn't, does it? Sometimes you you sometimes you have to put a message out. Yeah. You have to put the message out there. But again,

Sarah McCracken: it's it's deciding what the best course of action is and there there's no right or wrong answers. You know, maybe the archbishop did genuinely think he could he could ride this out. We don't know because we weren't party to to the discussions, but you do see other cases like that, interview about the royal we discussed earlier, you know, clearly not listening to any advice whatsoever. And, you know, I've even read stories from the journalist who who did the interview that, you know, she basically said it was ill advised and they couldn't understand why he actually agreed to it, but there you go. They they got their their story on that, as well. Yeah. You you you want to listen to your advisors, but equally who's given you the advice if it's people you've surrounded with because they say yes, that's not gonna help you in the long term. If there might be independent with a different viewpoint, that could be potentially useful for you, as well. And it's as well from a PR perspective, it's by tapping that overview of the wider news agenda. So it could be quite a small issue which then gets blown out of proportion or escalates to to something bigger because of of the wider news context. I mean, looking at the case, within the church and for the archbishop, I mean, that that is a story that you're we're seeing over and over and over again. So there's still something wrong there that that needs to be fundamentally dealt with. But, yeah, other case studies out there of, you know, how he was advised or who was advised and and did they generally think it it would blow over?

Joanne Lockwood: So you work predominantly with the business owners. I know you're passionate about having female led organizations as well. How do you go about engaging with them to start with? Or do you have a sort of kind of a step by step walk through about how you how you approach this? Is it about trying to understand, you know, you must just a fact finding on their brand, their their values and things, I guess, at the beginning? Yes. I've I've a number

Sarah McCracken: of different approaches. I mean, I've been working free time for myself since October 2024. I spent about a year and a half before that doing my own PR, building my own profile, my own visibility, and starting to do some PR training, on the side, while I still had my day job. So that that all helped. So so now what I do a lot of I spend a lot of time in LinkedIn. Never thought I would say that. But actually, in terms of platform, it's it's very nice. There's there's nice people on it. I'm not saying a lot of the toxicity and negativity that we'd see on other other platforms. So, I spent a lot of time trying to understand who I'm trying to talk to. My natural affinity is with women, with female business owners, with women who are trying to progress in their careers, and those working particularly in the comms industry. So, again, that's where I'm gravitating to at the minute. But equally, it's about understanding what where where it is and how I can help them. So having done a lot of work, through Women NPR in Northern Ireland, which I cofounded in 02/2018, What was coming up when we just, spoke with the women there was they just lacked confidence. You know, they felt like imposters. They felt invisible. And, again, they've they were having challenges, and they didn't realize that half the people in the room were facing similar challenges. So again, it's how do I bring people together to talk those issues through, to know that they're absolutely flipping brilliant at what it is that they do and that I can sit with them and take through step by step then and just how to start to tell their own story in whatever sphere they happen to work in. Yeah. I

Joanne Lockwood: think if I I I I've gone through my own imposter syndrome journey. I spent when I when I started this business eight of it years ago, it took me a while to find a voice. I was a lurker on on LinkedIn, on the platforms, and maybe the you brave it and like a comment, and then you might put a little comment. They might put a bit more, then you might put a bit more, then you might share something with a comment. And eventually, you think, hang on a minute. I need my voice here. I need to be the author. I need to own my own story now. It does take a while because you're looking for approval early on. You want someone to validate you. Again, the imposter syndrome, the limiting belief. What about what do I know? What do I matter? Takes a real it's takes a journey to find that voice. Absolutely. And I've been there myself. It

Sarah McCracken: was a couple of years ago now. I got myself a wonderful career coach, because I wanted to move on from my role. It wasn't serving me. I wasn't achieving what I wanted. And I I did a lot of work with them in terms of where I was going next. And and part of that was to start to engage more on social media. I mean, I love writing. I do PR. I can write content till the cows come home, but I remember physically thinking ill at the thought of I am now gonna write something and put it on LinkedIn. So I had overcome all that myself. And, yeah, it's it's a mindset. It's a limiting belief. And once somebody gives you that little push to do it and you've done it, it's like, oh, the world hasn't hasn't ended. So I hope I could be that little push for some people to start just to have that confident confidence to start maybe posting more content, whatever it happens to be, or, you know, pitching to a podcast or just, you know, cohesively or comprehensively looking at to how they can just develop a plan to achieve what it is they they want to achieve. But yeah, I get imposter syndrome all the time. Like, let let's be realistic here. I I deliver. I was delivering a training course in public affairs and there was the next politician on the call and was thinking, why aren't you my guest speaker? Why am I why why why am I why are you here? So you this all whizzes through your head and then you have a big smile. It's like, well, hello and welcome. How are you today? And then you have a conversation and you understand why they're there, and then you start to help each other out. But, yeah, we just have to keep working throughout. Yeah. I I used to have this thing

Joanne Lockwood: about this podcast. I was I used to pitch it to people I knew. Easy targets. And then, I started going you know, we talked about earlier going onto Facebook, just posting into these Facebook groups, be a guest. Because I realized, you know, this is episode a 57. You know, I've I've been doing this for five years now. Five years I've been doing this podcast. I'm a podcaster. I think, yeah. I now identify as a podcast. And then before I was just like, now I don't know what I'm doing. There's always people out there with big shows and big this and big that. What do I know? And then he realized that actually taking that first step, actually doing something makes you makes you're doing it. And you have to start owning it and you need to get the momentum. And now I go on to LinkedIn and think this person's I like their opinion. I like what they're saying. Let's just start dropping stuff into their inbox and DM ing them and saying, I think you're brilliant. I'd love to have a chat with you on my podcast. And all of a sudden, people say, oh, okay. I'll I'll have a go at that. I've pitched a couple of people on Instagram who are kind of, I don't wanna be unkind. See this D list type, TV personalities who've been in drama shows, put that. And one of them actually engaged and wrote back and said, yeah, tell me more. Here's my email address. Write to me, and I'll see what I can do. Oh, yeah. But so, of course, once you get start getting up up the alphabet towards the a list, you start building more credibility, don't you? You you then up yourself from being a a zed list interview, and I'm not saying you're a zed list. But you move into that kind of b's and c's and d's, and then suddenly, they say, oh, who else has been on? Oh, they've been on it. And then they feel like they're in the in the right zone as well. So you gotta try and create that credibility. Yeah. Fake it till you make it, if you like. But that takes a bit of bit of backbone sometimes, doesn't it? Yeah. And you you sit there thinking, should I send that should I send

Sarah McCracken: the email? What's what's the worst that's gonna happen? They're gonna say no is the worst, or they might just ignore you. But but either way, you've lost absolutely nothing by by sending that request. Who wouldn't want to come on your podcast? Do you know? Brilliant. Yeah. I know. And but and and it's also like that. It's in a virtuous circle. It's, you know, you you do one interview and then that creates credibility. I mean, when I, looked into your podcast, Sam has been a former guest. He's just brilliant. And I, I'm involved in the Social Selling Academy, which she's involved in. So that immediately gives you credibility. I might what am I on? Lister? Anyway, that that immediately give you credibility for me to think, yes. No. I I will go and speak to to Jo Jo on our podcast, which is just great. Oh, I remember now. You you sort of said I remember you you posted

Joanne Lockwood: back saying, oh, it sounds good on. That sounds like a good podcast. So, yeah, it is. It's, that it comes back to what Sam talked about social selling. It's about creating that brand, that curiosity, and that reputation of being consistent, isn't it? Yeah. So every little

Sarah McCracken: helps. And it's it does really frustrate me. You know, I would go in and talk to a lot of business scripts or I would run webinars on visibility and and PR in general. And it it it is frustrating when people think, oh, I don't like social media. I don't know what to do. And it's really not about you. It's about you, your product, your business, your service. And social media is just a channel to get it out into the world. So once you kinda get over that little ich, if you like, in your head, the next bit is how do we create some content. And, again, people get stuck on what content can I create, you know, two minutes of conversation, and I'm just blown away by the brilliance of people and the stories they have to tell, and then we can create content, around that? And then the next step is just, oh my goodness. What if nobody likes it? Also what? At least it's out in the domain. People will love it. I can guarantee it. And then we just that's that first step. And then the next first step, and then the next first step after that. And before you know it, you look back and look how far you've come. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I love that. It's as long as you're intentional and you're doing it from the right place, then having an opinion is what people want. They want your opinion. They want you to believe in something. And I, I, I always quote Chris Evans, the broadcaster, when he said, you gotta be Marmite. Half of us gotta love you and half of us gotta hate you. Because that way you polarize your audience and then you've got an audience where you're nothing to nobody or nothing to anybody. Nobody resonates with you. So you've really got to try and polarize your tribe or your people, Even if it's, even if it's just a minority tribe, whatever it is, know who you're, know who you're speaking to. And the people who aren't going to listen, don't worry about them. You want to speak to the people who do this echo chamber. Let's keep, keep feeding the echo chamber. Well, I know people don't like me because they go onto Twitter and search my name. I feel sorry. There's a nurse with the same name, Joanne Lockwood. She does some great stuff, but, but, yeah, if you search for Joanne Lockwood, you'll see, I follow the toxic stuff about me. And it's, it's quite funny, some of it, because I don't do anything about it because it's all engagement. It all amplifies. It's all creating a message. You know, I look at my YouTube comments and, you know, everyone, everyone I know shares, says each month. I bet there was positive reviews on my YouTube. I get thousands of toxic issues on my my YouTube. Lots of down likes. And it's, it's just part of it. And I just look at it and go, you've read it. You've taken part. You've engaged. You've amplified me. You've boosted it. That's fine. Go for it. Keep going. My job is done. You're proving my point. I love that.

Sarah McCracken: Yeah. They don't realize they're actually contributing to raising your profile in a positive sense. So yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. If I can become infamous in their circles, isn't

Joanne Lockwood: they? Because there's various shades of gray, isn't there, with people's negativity. Some people are followers. Some people are kind of on the fences. They're not quite sure. Some of the the leaders, they were protagonists of the whole thing. So all I wanna I don't wanna talk to the protagonists, the people who are anti ant. I want to sort the people who are kind of the undersiders. They want to find out more people, the laggards, if you like in that, the lurkers. I can engage with them. And then they go, oh, I wonder what she's really on about. Yeah. Okay. Forget your ear. I can not, I've got opportunities. But yeah. If you never say anything, how can people ever hear you? But think of the negativity

Sarah McCracken: as well it costs or the energy it costs to write that negativity. Do you know, imagine if if that kind of energy was channeled into something that you're doing something good or or being nice to somebody. I mean, gosh, the world would be a better place. We wouldn't be on this podcast discussing it.

Joanne Lockwood: No. Well, I I get people who take the trouble to somehow work out my address and write a letter to me and tell me how much they don't like me. Let alone emails. Yeah. I get, get all this stuff and it's like, well, fair play. You've done, you've done some research. You haven't just got the tweet back or something. You've, you've actually found my website and you've gone to my info page. You found my email address in the contact me page And you've sent me an email. If you actually type words, it's like, wow, I'm impressed. This is this is good. So I'm I'm laughing at the letter writers because they've actually had to buy

Sarah McCracken: a stamp. It's cost for money. And they should have to buy a stamp.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Of course, my public address is my accountants. My accountants are forwarding it on for the love stamp. So, yeah, it's like two stamps. Keeping the post office going

Sarah McCracken: single handed here. Very good. It's like £3. Yeah. Boy, love it. But yeah. But I but I think some of that negativity, it it is also what causes reticence in new business owners, business leaders. You know, they're they're selling perfectly reasonable new products and services. You know, it's not even gonna be something necessarily controversial for for want of a better description. So there is just a apprehension of if I do post content or if I promote what I'm doing, it's even, oh, people are gonna think, you know, who does she think she is? Do you know who did you know, how would she know all that kind of thing? And again, that's a confidence thing. That's something that's instilled in us from a, from a young age that you shouldn't blow your own trumpet, that you shouldn't be singing your own praises. I'm over that in case you can't tell. And again, I want to then start to help other people, other women in particular, just, just have that confidence to do that. And once they start, oh my goodness, they don't stop. It's absolutely phenomenal to see. I get a nice email and saying, look, I read you're saying I I watched your your YouTube video and I've won the other day from from a girl. And you know, I've watched a YouTube video. I've discussed it with my team and we're now going to implement some of the things that, that you said to do equally terrifying and brilliant, to be honest and terrifying that they've listened, but brilliant that I know it'll make a difference what they're about to do. So it is, it is nice to give that positive feedback, But it It is. It's nice to be quoted, isn't it? Where people quote you, or they

Joanne Lockwood: they bump into you six months later. So I've listened to this, and I read that. You're a hero of mine. And you go, wow. Thank you. Thank you. Didn't know anyone for listening. Thank you. Yeah. That's the other thing. When you go on the radio sometimes and

Sarah McCracken: do do a broadcast, I've done a few of them for the various organizations I've worked with. And you think, I mean, we're having a chatty. You think nobody's listening. So I've done a radio interview and then ten minutes later, I get a text or a phone call from somebody going, I just heard you on the radio. Somebody was actually, that's what did I say? Did it sound okay? But again, I can't undo what I've just said or spoken about, and that's just the way it happens to be. Yeah. I get that

Joanne Lockwood: sometimes when I'm I got I've done a few l LPC, Nick Ferrari type, and some other ones on an LPC. And and I I get someone text me later. They go, oh, I was in my car driving here, and I was just having my my coffee and sitting in the canteen. And I thought, I know that voice. It's like, so you get a little text message a little bit. They say, oh, there are people out there. It's nice. It's nice. It

Sarah McCracken: is nice. It validates what you do. I think it validates you know, we talk

Joanne Lockwood: about PR. You can be a bit thankless. You know, you feel like you're just blowing into the wind sometimes and hoping something sticks and lands. And And when it does, it really is an ego boost. Ego is maybe the wrong word, but a a confidence boost maybe. Yeah. And you mentioned

Sarah McCracken: earlier about how do you measure the value of PR, you know, because obviously marketing ad spend, you can see all that. You can see a direct link into product sales because marketing is about selling stuff. Sorry to all the marketers listening. So so PR, it's it is different. It's about that reputation, that engagement piece. So, again, setting your objectives. You I want two brief 10 politicians. I want to achieve three newspaper feature articles. I want to tell the story about x, y, and zed. So it's setting different types of objectives. But I do know, you know, if you're looking for something, say you want to want to get a career coach or a service like that, if you Google that or Google somebody's name because they've been recommended, if you find an article about them somewhere on the Internet, maybe, you know, in a magazine or a newspaper or a blog or whatever it happens to be, then you're gonna think, oh, they've got a bit of credibility because I can now read a bit more about them. So so that's the value of PR as well. It's it's building that credibility through different outlets that's not paid for. So, again, that that's gonna enhance your credibility and hopefully down the line boost your presence. And, again, you know, from from features, from from articles, you can see an uplift perhaps in your website traffic or in product sales when when an article has has come out. So so there are ours where there are ways around it, but keeping at the heart of it, PR is about your reputation and your visibility and your credibility. That's how you listen and engage with your stakeholders, and you'll not go too far wrong. No. And one of my, one of

Joanne Lockwood: the things I often say to people is, you know, the old adage in business was it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I I said that's moved on now. It's not what you know, who you know, but who knows you.

Sarah McCracken: Exactly. And PR is about trying to get that who are

Joanne Lockwood: you out your message, your brand, whatever it is. Marketing messages, whatever, selling stuff. Also, who am I? That's that's the PR side. So I don't it's not that I don't care who you are, but I care more that you know who I am. And this is kind of that's what PR does because it's making sure you position yourself in the minds of people but in the right way. The the example

Sarah McCracken: I've used recently in some of my trainings is, what what are they saying about you when you're not in the room? So I think it's very similar to what you've just said. You know, with with this the marketing students last week, I had some, you know, some celebrity examples. What are you saying about them when you're not in the room? One was a controversial owner of a social media platform. I think that's how we'll describe them. And and, again, some there was divided opinions. Some people thought he was a great business person. Other people thought he was a bit of a prat. So, again but it's it's understanding how is that opinion formed. Because I did challenge, well, have you met him? Do do you know what that they're really like? I also Taylor Swift as a a slightly better example. But, again, there were Swifties in the room. There was people who didn't like her. And again, it's the conversation then is how have you formed that opinion about people? So it it can apply it to you and me as well. You hire people. The people's listening to this podcast have formed an opinion about me. Good or bad. I I don't know what it is. If it's it's good, please get in touch with me. Let's have a cup of tea and a chat. If it's bad, write me a letter because you'll have to pay for a stamp. Who knows? A stamp on it. But you know, what are people saying about you when you're not in the room? That is how PR can help.

Joanne Lockwood: No, I agree. I think that's, I think that's good. And touching on Taylor Swift there, I mean, I think she's a fantastic singer. Actually more importantly, she's a fantastic businesswoman as well, business person as well. She is a phenomenal entrepreneur in the way she's merchandised and marketed and created that brand and that wealth she's accumulated to spice. It's not just by singing it. She's created a brand. I think that's the powerful thing with Taylor Swift on the same way. We've got other, other people. But, you know, you look at people like maybe in the past, Elvis, they were kind of made by a manager or made by an example. I think Taylor Swift's own zone, their own brand and image. I think that that's that's what I always admire with Taylor Swift anyway. So, yeah, that's how I describe her. A fantastic singer and a fantastic businesswoman. That's

Sarah McCracken: good. Yeah. And what can we learn from that? You know, if if we're feeling reticent about taking that first step and that next first step, you know, what was Taylor Swift's first step? What would Taylor do? Maybe that could be your new mantra.

Joanne Lockwood: Taylor, what would Taylor do? Yeah. She'd leave her record company and rerecord all the songs so they didn't get any revenue for the old back catalog. Yeah. That's I think that's that's a great thing. That's it. Own own your content is a is a great it's a great lesson from that. Own your content and don't give it away for free or don't don't sign a deal with it. It restricts your use of content. So, yeah, I think that's a good lesson as well. Yep. So, Sarah, if if people wanna write to you properly, yeah, electronically. I mean, I don't suggest if I pops out, buys a stamp, and sticks on them when I post. So how how can people find you, get hold of you? I spend a lot

Sarah McCracken: of time on LinkedIn. So Sarah McCracken, FCIPR, which is fellow of the chartered and sheet of public relations. So you'll you'll find me on on LinkedIn a lot. And, again, it's what's worked well for me as as as a brand, as a service provider. I have content on Instagram. But, again, Instagram is really difficult. So, again, if you're judging where to put your social content, where is your audience hanging out? So LinkedIn, Sarah McCracken. Instagram is sarah mccracken underscore p r. Or if you would rather have content about chickens, no alpacas, maybe some sheep. You've got Sarah's come to life on Instagram as well. It's a bit more lighthearted. I also have a website, which is www.theprclub.co.uk. And I do have some free resources and downloads on that as well.

Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. Well, I'll put a link to all that in the show notes below. Sarah, just for those who are listening, s a r a. No no h. Sarah without an h. McCracken is m small c big C r a c k e n. Is that yep. That's me. Yes. Oh, yeah. There it is. It's been a fantastic chat talking about PR, alpacas, Taylor Swift, and people of the public eye we probably keep talking about. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.