--- title: "Speaking Truth To Power" episode: 156 date: 2025-04-24 guest: "Saba Ali" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/156-speaking-truth-to-power audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-156/audio.mp3 --- # Speaking Truth To Power Joanne Lockwood is joined by Saba Ali for a wide-ranging conversation about speaking truth to power and turning advocacy into institutional change. Saba shares her personal story, including childhood abuse and cultural abuse, periods of homelessness and addiction, and the long-term work of therapy and recovery that helped her reclaim her voice. She reflects on the impact of intersectionality in her life as a queer woman of colour with hidden disabilities, and why being listened to with compassion is often the starting point for change. The discussion explores allyship in practice, particularly Saba’s work as a critical friend to the criminal justice system. She describes the importance of ensuring diverse representation in advisory spaces and bringing community voices directly into decision-making rooms rather than speaking over people. Joanne adds her own experiences as a trans woman, including reporting hate crime and the difference empathetic policing can make. Together they discuss trust, safety, community support, and the need for connection and collaboration in challenging times for LGBTQIA+ people and other marginalised groups. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — "Inclusion Conversations with Joanne Lockwood" - 06:28 — Advocating for Vulnerable Women and Children - 07:46 — Understanding Identity-Related Trauma and Abuse - 10:19 — Empathy and Support for Survivors - 15:54 — Microaggressions and Representation Concerns - 16:56 — Amplifying Marginalised Voices at Conferences - 21:12 — Inner Conflict of a Police Officer - 25:12 — Police Facing Funding and Staffing Crisis - 26:34 — Bridging Community and Crime Reporting - 30:01 — Compassionate Policing Techniques - 34:33 — Advocating Peaceful Conflict Resolution - 36:41 — "Embracing Self-Expression Loudly" - 42:04 — Refuge Shortage for Queer Youth - 43:18 — LGBT+ Support Lacking, Especially Trans - 46:35 — Staying on Facebook for Support - 49:48 — Safe Family, Global Support Network - 53:09 — "Navigating Perception and Identity" - 57:28 — "Join the Inclusion Bites Journey" ## Key takeaways - The significance of intersectionality in understanding and advocating for diverse identities. - The role of storytelling in transforming personal adversity into a platform for justice and change. - Challenges faced by queer individuals, particularly within the South Asian community, and how they navigate cultural expectations. - The importance of critical friendships in driving institutional change and the empowerment of marginalised voices. - Enhancing community trust with law enforcement through transparent dialogue and understanding. - Strategies for amplifying voices within marginalised groups to influence policy and societal attitudes. - Practical ways to offer support to those facing abuse or discrimination, including the power of belonging and chosen families. ## FAQs ### What is the main focus of this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast? The episode titled "Speaking Truth to Power" centres around amplifying marginalised voices and promoting institutional change, chiefly through the experiences and insights of Saba Ali. It highlights intersectionality, cultural abuse, and the unique challenges faced by queer South Asian individuals. ### Who are the speakers in this episode and what roles do they play? Joanne Lockwood, the host, guides the conversation on inclusion and societal transformation. Saba Ali is the guest speaker, a public advocate for marginalised communities, who shares her personal journey and efforts in activism to amplify marginalized voices into meaningful change. ### How does Saba Ali describe her superpower, and why is it significant? Saba Ali's self-described superpower is her ability to amplify marginalised voices into institutional change. This reflects her commitment to raising awareness and advocating for justice concerning intersectionality, cultural abuse, and lived realities of diverse individuals. ### What personal experiences has Saba Ali shared that influenced her advocacy work? Saba shared her challenging childhood experiences with abuse and cultural restraints and how these experiences shaped her resolve to help others who have undergone similar struggles. Her journey from victimhood to empowerment serves as an inspirational narrative for her advocacy work. ### What are the challenges faced by marginalised communities when interacting with institutional power or systems, according to this episode? The episode discusses scepticism and lack of trust often felt by marginalised people towards the criminal justice system due to past negative experiences. However, it acknowledges positive instances where empathetic and respectful interactions with the police have led to satisfactory resolutions. ### How does the podcast address support for young queer individuals, especially those in toxic environments? The podcast highlights the scarcity of support systems for young queer individuals in distress, particularly those suffering from homelessness or discrimination due to their identity. It stresses the importance of community support, chosen families, and the need for more refuges and resources. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 156, one hundred and fifty six, with the title, Speaking Truth to Power. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Saba Ali. Saba is a public speaker, a critical friend who champions justice for marginalized communities, focusing on intersectionality, cultural abuse, and the lived realities of queer South Asian individuals. When I asked Saba to describe her superpower, she said it is her ability to amplify marginalized voices into institutional change. Hello, Saba. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Nice to be here. Lovely to get you on. We we first met couple of years ago. We did both did a panel together, didn't we? An online panel, I think. Yes. Yeah. And, we bumped into each other at events like Trans in the City. I think the mayor of London had a had a event a couple of years ago. We bumped each other there. And more recently at, Beyond Reflections, award night, where you won the award. Hey. Go you. I Saba Ali: did. I won, allyship for the trans community Yeah. Which was completely unexpected. But, yeah, very honored to receive that, especially as it was chosen from the community. Yeah. I was thinking if you're up for an award, everybody else, no chance. Saba's Joanne Lockwood: got this. Thank you. Yeah. No. We we keep bumping it to each other, Saba Ali: which is great. Yeah. It's always nice to meet Lovely. Like minded people. And it Joanne Lockwood: sounds like we're gonna be seeing a lot more each other through the RSA and some of the events and the LGBT community within the RSA. So I'm really, really looking forward to getting involved with those things. Yeah. Absolutely. I, Saba Ali: I have definitely got you penciled in for a few things. Joanne Lockwood: So if you listen to this and it and it floats your boat, if you don't remember the RSA, firstly, join, become a fellow of the RSA. Yep. And then track either myself or or Sabi down, and we can, Saba down, and we can, get into that and and find and get you in, yeah, basically. Yeah. And I should add, actually, for those Saba Ali: of you who don't know, RSS, the Royal Society of Arts. Joanne Lockwood: Education and commerce or something, isn't it? It's it's got it's got a long bit on the end, which I never remember which way around it is, but, yeah, of arts and something else. Yeah. So me and Joanne are both part Saba Ali: of their, LGBTQIA network, which is doing some amazing stuff. Very excited to be part of that. Which, I don't wanna focus on what's going on in the world too Joanne Lockwood: deeply to the moment, but there's a lot of stuff going on that we need to raise the the profile. So it's a bit a bit pooey out there at the moment. Is it for for queer folk? It's not great. Saba Ali: It's not great. I think, I think that's one of the reasons actually why I'm really championing what the RSA are doing because they are a global community. So the network is a great global community. But I think at the moment, it's so important for the LGBT plus community to kind of unite and get together and sort of try and put our differences aside and, you know, come together and work together. We really need to sort of support each other. And even if that's only in small groups that, you know, we we need to be there for each other at the moment. That support and compassion is so important. Was there a a point in your life where you Joanne Lockwood: thought, actually, this is my calling. I wanna go and champion marginalized voices, talk about intersectionality. What was it apart from being a, well, at the time, a young black Muslim woman with a queer tendency, I guess? Apart from that, what's what got you into it? Saba Ali: So my childhood lived experience is actually child abuse and cultural abuse. So I have no recollection of the first sort of nine, ten years of my life. I know it was very abusive. I have, like, the odd generally have flashbacks, but I had the odd recollection. And my mother was my perpetrator, and I know that she had mental health issues, and she's passed now. And there were quite a few occasions where, you know, she just we're we're just she just didn't like me for whatever reason. She you know, like I said, she had her own issues. And I was a seventies child, and in the seventies, there weren't really any support organizations or groups. You had ChildLine and the NSPCC, and that was it. But, obviously, growing up in a religious, conservative household, you know, what happened in the home stayed in the home. It wasn't discussed outside the home. And I think, part of the reason why I don't have any recollection of those early years is I just lived in fantasy world. Like, I lived in a world outside in my head, sort of away with the fairies, and I didn't have any support at all. It kind of led me down a strange path. You know, I kinda got into the wrong crowd, got into the wrong things, eventually got picked out of home because of drug abuse. But fortunately, I had people reach out to me, give me a lot of support. In the eighties, it was quite easy to late eighties, early nineies. You know, getting on the housing ladder was a lot different to today. Priority, I managed to get sort of council housing. I mean, that's really in a nutshell. But what it kind of always what I always said is that one day, I really wanted to either help young children or help women that were kind of in my position who didn't have a voice, who didn't have that support, but also to let them know that actually what happened to me was wrong. You know, it should never have happened. And I think, you know, the more I've worked in advocacy and I've worked around sort of hate crime, abuse, whether it's child abuse, domestic abuse, it's really made me realize that it's not acceptable. It's not okay. There's no justification for that kind of behavior. And especially being part of the LGBT plus community, that intersectionality, that's kind of where it comes in because for me, you know, I'm a woman. I'm a woman of color. I grew up in a family of faith. I'm queer. I have hidden disabilities so that, you know, I took so many different layers. There's discrimination against all those different layers. So when you break it down, it's a lot to deal with. And I think people in the community, I've met so many people that have either been disowned by their family or they don't get on with one of their siblings or their parents because of their identity or, you know, they get abuse from people at work or at school or it can be in any setting, and it's just not okay. And I think especially as women, especially as women of color, there is so much, there is so many layers of abuse that we have to put up with, and so many people just suffer in silence. And I see it, and I hear it all the time in the community. You know, people that will sometimes open up with me and will say that, you know, I haven't shared this with anyone before. I haven't said this before. And, you know, I I I think my privilege is that people feel safe and comfortable to talk to me. But yeah. So I think just growing up with that lived experience, understanding what it's like to be abused, understanding all the different kind of emotions, trauma, the way trauma manifests into illness. So, you know, I have complex PTSD. I suffer with fibromyalgia, which is a trauma based illness. It's understanding all those things, and it's kind of making someone aware of who they are, helping someone recognize who they are, love themselves, get to believe in themselves, and know that, actually, there is a way out. If I can do it, you know, I've gone from sort of being ostracized. I mean, I have a great relationship with my brother and sister now. I've you know, I'm very fortunate that, you know, we've managed to rekindle that. But I think, you know, letting people know that I've been disowned by my family at one point, completely ostracized by my community. My community have nothing to do with me. They still don't know how to address me or speak to me if they see me, which I kind of find quite amusing in a weird way. But, yeah, being ostracized by the community, having nobody kind of, you know, being homeless, you know, a recovering drug addict, all those things, I've overcome all of those. You know, I've had years of therapy. I've spent decades working on myself. So I know that with a lot of hard work and support, you can overcome it. It's not easy, and it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, you know, this all happened to me in my twenties, and I'm in my early fifties now. I'm 53. I'm not embarrassed to to to say I'm actually quite proud to say it because I never thought I'd get to 53. So for me, it's really important to share that message with people that, you know, it's okay. You know, we can get through this together. The most important thing to me is I run a monthly support group for a charity. I'm an I'm an ambassador for Avengers, which is for women and girls. And one of the things that's come up for me that really came up for me in the last session we had a few weeks ago was most people that are victim survivors or have had some form of abuse, they just want to be listened to. They just want to feel some form of compassion. And I think in the community, we we've constantly got people telling us, you've gotta do this. You've gotta do that. This is law is for you. You know? You can't do this. You can't do that. But actually, nobody listens to the community. And I think this is something that I do a lot of work trying to raise awareness as an ally for the trans community, especially. I'm very lucky that I have some really good friends that are trans women. And then, it's that the trans community, especially, just constantly has people speaking on their behalf, speaking for them, speaking at them, and actually knowing, you know, your voice needs to be listened to, your voice needs to be heard. So those are the things that sort of are really important to me and what kind of brought me to where I'm at today in terms of using my voice. And where for the first few decades of my life, I was silenced, and I was told I wasn't good enough, and I was told not to speak, and I was, yeah, basically silenced. I will not be that person anymore. And I'm really proud to say that I am a defiant woman today. I'm not afraid to speak up. And, you know, if you wanna call me a gobby woman, you can call me a gobby woman. But, you know, I've I've found my voice today, and I will speak up for all those women and all those other people that find it difficult to speak up for themselves. So I could Yeah. Especially as one of those trans women Joanne Lockwood: that you're allying to, It's it's it's incredibly exhausting having to continue to do your own advocacy Mhmm. As standing up and and protesting or whatever it may be. And there's so much, to quote the phrase, better together, or I think it was a Brexit term. What's the question devolution term, was it? Having allies to do some of that heavy lift to clear the path, to sort things out, to because privilege gives weight. And we called this speaking truth to power. As a trans woman in many spaces, I don't have power. And as a non trans person, as a cis woman, you have more agency in that space than I can. So to hear your voice in there allows me to sort of tuck in behind you and let you take the, the out who's in your chest, knowing full well that whatever I say is gonna be used against me, dismissed, talked over, or the same old tropes and and nasty remarks are gonna come back out. But you can still go, no. That's not true. Yeah. I do, I do a lot of work today Saba Ali: with the criminal justice system, especially with the police, as a critical friend. So that's basically speaking to them as a community member, not working for them, speaking to them, in an advocacy role, sort of suggesting making suggestions or, like, maybe reading something and saying, well, actually, you've missed this or giving them advice on how to deal with the situation. One of the things that I do quite a lot is I always make sure that the trans community are included in it, but not just the trans community. I sat, for example, on the MET's LGBT independence advisory group for two years, and it was all middle aged white gay men. And I don't have anything against middle aged white gay men. But if you're gonna represent London, which is incredibly diverse culturally and in in so many other ways, it cannot be represented just by white gay men that are middle aged. You've gotta have youth. You've gotta have, you know, elders in there. You've gotta have all the different strands of the community in there. So, you know, when I go and speak on a panel or if I'm going to speak in a round table or in a scrutiny panel, I will make sure that I'm not just speaking as a woman. You know, I'm speaking as a woman. I'm representing different communities, but I'm representing faith. I'm representing race. I'm representing gender disability. And because I you know, I I'm so intersectional myself that I I kind of do it without even thinking. So if I'm reading a document, I will think, well, there's nothing about disability in this. Like, that's completely missing. And that would just come to me naturally, not because I'm necessarily thinking about it. It's because that's how it is. And I've noticed, that intersectionality is a buzzword that's used a lot at the moment. I think if you ask a lot of people where it came from, where the phrase was coined from, they wouldn't be able to tell you that it was Kimberley Grenshaw and the meaning behind it, that it was, you know, civil rights word. And, you know, I don't know. People could look it up. They can do their own homework. Yeah. Well, you could tell you could tell it's a a Joanne Lockwood: powerful word because it's it's one of those words, along with microaggressions and other words, that the anti woke brigade throw up as going, this is a mumbo jumbo word. It doesn't it's meaningless. It's it's all about meritocracy and white people getting getting the jobs again. Yeah. And in fact, microaggressions is another Saba Ali: one. It's something that, you know, I'm acutely aware when someone says something, that's inappropriate because, you know, I represent so many different strands and different, I was gonna say, label or hair labels. God damn them. I don't like being pigeonholed because I don't know who I'm gonna be or what I'm gonna be each day I wake up. But, yeah, to me, it's just really important to have that representation. To me, representation is really important as I have all those voices, and I don't think it's fair that any one person can speak on behalf of a whole community or any one person can say, I'm an ambassador for the trans community or I represent, you know, it it just doesn't work like that. But the other thing as well, I just wanna add quickly, is there anything I do in relation to, say, for example, on the swooshy panel giving advice, I will always go and speak to, like, trans organizations or contacts and say, look. This is what I'm doing. This is what do you think? Is there anything you want me to focus on? Is there anything you want me to particularly say? So I spoke at a couple of chemsex conferences last year, and in the end, I agreed with a friend of mine, a trans woman, who did recorded a video for me so that she could actually speak from a trans perspective and the use of chems. So when I spoke about it, I wanted to raise awareness of it, but it came from a trans person. And we did the same thing actually with, a black gay man. I got him to record a video as well. So you you talked about that kind of privilege that, yes, I do have privilege. I do have access to people in rooms. Is it when I go into those rooms, I will also bring those voices with me. So quite often, that might be reading a statement out for someone or playing a video that someone's recorded for me. So to me, it's really important that I'm representing community, and I'm not there just representing cyber because I'm not an community. I'm just an individual. That's the amplification Joanne Lockwood: element, though, isn't it? It's it's making sure that you've created this space for people. You've crowbarred the door open. You've given a platform to somebody, and then you're there to say, go on. You can do this. I'm with you. Go go girl or go boy. You can say or go them. And you can that's what you need sometimes, you know. It's it's very lonely walking out into the stage in a spotlight on your own, especially if you're come from a background where advocacy doesn't come natural. You're gonna walk away. And we see it all the time where people say, I can't. I can't. I can't say anything. I'm too nervous. What if I fumble my words? What if I think I'm stupid or an idiot or something? So having someone behind you, giving you that strength, giving you that belief, I think belief is probably a good word there, that you are making sense is is so powerful. It's so powerful. Yeah. So And that's what you do, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I Saba Ali: know a lot of other people that do it. And wherever I have the opportunity to bring people into panels and groups and settings, I always do. I mean, I I coerced you to come and join the RSA Circle Network and, you know, any opportunity I have where I can bring people in. Like, for me, collaboration is so important. I think, like I said, right at the beginning, working in silos just doesn't really get you anywhere. That kind of, like, I want all the glory and I want all the recognition just doesn't work. You know? You have to work in collaboration. We have to work together. It's just so much stronger voice. And if I can give other people opportunities, why not? I don't Joanne Lockwood: think, actually, you you coerced me. I think you just said, hey, Joe. I've got a cunning plan. Do you what do you think? I love the cunning plan. Let's do it. Yeah. It was I'm I've got someone described as having the breaking strain of a kick. Yeah. My resistance is very low on many things, and, I'm always up for something. You know? I all of my my mantras is, always say yes because no exciting adventure ever starts with no. Yeah. Let's let's do it and see what happens. Oh, gosh. I'm the opposite. You see, my Saba Ali: favorite word is now. I it's one of the reasons why I absolutely love being self employed and working for myself. It's just that joy in being able to say no. I just Yeah. I I get that. I Joanne Lockwood: get that. I I suppose see, I don't see those opportunities where I say no as a no. I I I I sort of say, well, that's not a good fit for me or that's Yeah. I'm not it's all about what's in it for me. I'm not I'm not saying I'm I'm doing it for personal gain, but some things that don't resonate, and I think, well and I've I've been like you. I I've said yes too many times in my life. Yeah. It's through that mantra. It's got me into sort of personal stress and overload and no time for myself. So I suppose I I do pick and choose what I'm gonna do. But if someone comes to me with a with a a credible, cunning plan and it sounds interesting, I'm always gonna go. And so, yeah, don't worry. I'm I'm an easy target for you if you ever need if you ever wanna ask. Saba Ali: I've made a mental note that's I'm only locked away. As Joanne Lockwood: a marginalized person myself, I guess, and coming from within marginalized communities, there's a huge distrust of the criminal justice system, the police, politicians' power in general, really, especially at the moment where we thought things are gonna get brighter and sunnier with a change of government. It looks like we're recycling some of the same old tropes. Should people trust more, or should we still be doubtful and nervous? Oh, I feel like I'm taking a big Saba Ali: sigh. I I really struggle with this because there were times when I thought, should I really be doing what I'm doing? And then I kinda think, well, if I don't do it, who else would do it? And then I think, god, that's really conceited, and who the hell do you think you are? So I have this kind of constant battle with myself, but I think I've had other people say to me that I'm so grateful you do what you do because I wouldn't do it. And I've had so many people in the community say I would not do what you do. But to me, you know, I do believe we need a police service because, otherwise, I think there would be anarchy. And I think I'm lucky because I work on the inside. I've got to meet so many good police officers and police staff, people that really genuinely do care and genuinely care about our community and marginalized people and want to help. You know, I've seen officers in tears, you know, really upset when, you know, no news breaking broken, broken, broken, about, you know, like, when the Wayne actually, when the Sarah Everard news broke, I saw officers in tears, like women are really upset, stuff around the barking murders. There was a lot of upset. And, you know, I've met a lot of LGBT officers and staff, and they genuinely care about their community. So in that sense, I think I just think there's a lot of work that needs to be done. I think there's a lot around policing that the public don't see and don't know. I think there needs to be more transparency. I think the last government really, really corrupt is probably the politest way I can put it without using Morally and and in other ways as Joanne Lockwood: well. They really were. You know, they openly said that they Saba Ali: were gonna use the LGBT plus community, the trans community, as a wedge issue, as, you know, culture, you know, gonna make a scene out of it and cause problems. And they did. You know? That that awful, vile home secretary, you know, she changed the laws just to make it difficult for trans people. And that's all they talked about. All they talked about was what was in people's pants. They didn't care about the fact that people couldn't afford to eat or stay warm or, you know, put their electricity on, turn their lights on. All they cared about was what was in your pants. And to me, it just beggars belief that people allowed that to be. Or when you think about, oh god. I can't believe I'm gonna even say the word Brexit. But when people be like, I'd rather lose my job and not have any money, but not being you know, get my country back. You know? I just I just think I I don't know. I just don't understand what's happening to this country, if I'm honest. You know? I I am I I do like politics. I do I mean, I really struggle with it at the moment. As we we were saying earlier, I get so frustrated because I I am so interested in it. But then when we're in times like today, right now, I can't listen to the news. I can't listen to anything because it just it's not good for my mental health. But I think when it comes to policing, you know, they've absolutely ruined it. And we have and I am gonna say we have such a far right leaning media who absolutely twists headlines and the information that's put out there. It's completely misinformed, complete scaremongering, and the average person that reads the news or listens to the radio is getting incorrect information. So I think, you know, the police are stuck in a hard place, and it sounds like I'm trying to make excuses for them. I'm not, but, you know, they're they're understaffed. They haven't got any money. They've had funding cuts, they've got more funding cuts that just happened, they're losing officers, their long term officers are resigning left, right, etcetera, they're in a dire straits, you know, and I really feel for them because people that, you know, I know an officer who was there for thirty one years, person of color, really compassionate, really committed to community, did amazing work with the LGBTQ plus community, And he retired, took took retirement because he was like, I just can't do it anymore. And people are losing faith, and that's because they've just been run to the ground. So in terms of why do I keep going back? Why do I keep doing it? I think because at the end of the day, our safety and our security is really important to me. And the few people that I have been able to refer and that I have put through to the police, whether it's been to do with stalking, domestic abuse, or transphobic or homophobic hate crime, have actually been dealt with really well. And they've all come back to me and said, I actually can't believe how nice that officer was, or they actually treated me really well. So on mass, they come across as evil. But one on one, when you get that, you know, one on one, they've actually been, like, I actually can't believe the police have been nice to me. So to me, that's what's important. You know, they have caught a few of the criminals from a few of the people that I've put through. And to me, it's important to have you know, if I can be a bridge and I can be a link between the community and them, to me, that's really important. And that's one of the reasons why I started doing this work. And I kind of mainly started doing it because one of the things that I realized was that there are months when there is no transphobic hate crime reported at all. And I know that that's not true. And I know that when there's third party referrals for domestic abuse, there is literally no reports for trans domestic abuse or sexual assault, and I know that that's not true. Hate crime reports are really low. So to me, I want the community to feel comfortable to report hate crime. I want them to report it. I want perpetrators to be caught. And the only way that's gonna happen is if we can kind of build that trust and confidence between the two. You know, the community need to be able to trust the police, and the police need to be able to understand the community to be able to speak to them, the community. I Joanne Lockwood: agree. Yeah. I think the trust is low because you don't believe there's any relatability there because you're Yeah. As a trans woman, as a as a trans man, as someone who's non binary, you see binary police officers. You see cis police officers. So you've got very low confidence because let's let's face it. Being on the front line as a police officer, as a trans person, that's a pretty brutal place to be as well. You you've got not only the discriminate against your uniform and who you are, but also your identity as well. So I guess any weakness in terms of in the view of a perpetrator is a is an angle that they've got to overcome. So I see it's a it's a pretty brutal environment to be in. I I get it. But I I reported to hate crime probably about six months ago. For some reason, I get random emails after I appear on GB News or do something on the media. I get people actually track me down and start sending me hate mail emails. They actually write to me. I think it's brilliant. I think I've got I've created that much anchor in them. They actually write me an email, and they've taken the trouble to find my email address. And I this one was very vitriolic, and it was very, very nasty. So I thought, oh, okay. I'll just go to online, hate crime report, cut and pasted it, put all the correspondence in there. And they sent an officer around to to have a chat with me. And, you know what it's like? An officer turns up at your doorstep. They've got all their fluorescent gear. They've got their big belt with their cut handcuffs and their nightstick and their torches and their radio. They're quite an intimidating Yeah. Kids when they turn up at your door, say, woah. Can I come in? They think, blimey. And I feel intimidated already, like I've done something wrong. Yeah. Does that the way they speak, their tone of voice is very authoritative, isn't it, deliberately? And you're there's no empathy here at all. It's just I was sat on my sofa. I sat on the couch opposite. And I start talking to him, and he and he immediately had empathy, had compassion. He was looking through the evidence. It's it's just so wrong. You shouldn't have to put up with this. This is absolutely abhorrent. We're gonna do all we can to take find this person and prosecute or whatever we can do. And they left. I thought, wow. Despite that hard, officious exterior, there was a person in there that was there for me. Mhmm. And I I it was sought by faith in that hate crime process. Just the fact that this person was listened to me, actually listened to me. That's Saba Ali: so good to hear, and I'm really glad you had that experience. One of the things I kind of work with, I facilitate and advise with new recruit sergeants, inspectors, and above. One above. One of the things that we do sometimes say is, you know, the the you know, in some situations, maybe they need to go, like, in plain clothes so that they're not intimidating as like like you said, if it's something that they're not comfortable with, maybe ask, you know, does the individual want would would they prefer a man or a woman, you know, to attend, you know, to what what does the victim survive or, you know, what what they feel comfortable with. So, you know, and that tone of body language, you know, it should be softer, and it should be, you know, more compassionate. But, you know and I, I mean, I always say, like, listen. Like, please just listen to them first before you start filling out your forms and ticking your boxes because listening is just the most important thing, and that's you know? But I'm glad you had that experience. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I dare say if I was less mature, younger, less less robust, less resilient, less confident, I would have been very intimidated. And and that's not the person's fault. It's just Saba Ali: No. Their persona the way that's how police are trained to be, isn't it? To Joanne Lockwood: be to be a vicious and and an authority and and a a figure that you're still dominated by. It's a uniform. Saba Ali: Yeah. It's a uniform. How did you feel up towards them when they left? Did you I was I was very satisfied that I felt listened to. Joanne Lockwood: I felt that they they cared. They were they were gonna fight on my behalf, and, you know, they were gonna champion my cause. As it turned out, they tracked the person down, and they said this person has significant mental health concerns. And whilst they're not stopping me taking it forward, they wonder what would become out of it. You know, this this person was yeah. Does this a lot sort of thing. You know, it's they they they didn't persuade me. Oh. I I was I was happily guided to a conclusion where there was nothing practical to be gained. This person was just bored mentally mentally struggling, and it was more likely to cause more problems for me by pursuing them because they were Retirement. Vengeance on that. Yeah. I was happy to I was happy to go with it. I felt a bit disappointed at the time that I wanted yeah. After they persuaded me that did I want to go to court? I went, yeah. Okay. Fine. I I was then on this sledge wondering if this person was gonna do it again. Mhmm. Every time I appear on this show, is it are they gonna come back? But, no, they haven't come back so far. But yeah. No. I I felt satisfied, and I've reported other things in the past. I was asked to leave a a bed and breakfast in Blackpool because Oh, wow. I was potentially a disruption to the other guests, you know, in black in Blackpool, of all places. You know? This is Oh my Saba Ali: goodness. We've got we've got families here. You know? We've got families. What are they Joanne Lockwood: gonna think? How are you here? Wow. Luckily, I knew I knew a a police officer in the Blackpool area who, I think was on the Lago team at the time, whatever. That's what they used to be called. And I reported to him, and he he went out a word. And sort of because I actually managed to record it, the whole conversation on my phone at the time. Feeling? And it's it's pretty brutal. It's like, they're going, well because I was there with my wife Marie, and Marie Marie's standing next to me. And I was with a group of other trans women as well. We're having a weekend at Blackpool. We're we're all kind of very respectable, very chilled out. We weren't we weren't outrageous. And they said, we don't allow all sex parties in there. I said, yes, a cis woman. If you're if you're playing the sex card, then we're not all set all one sex. Oh, yes. But you're disruptive. You're gonna be partying all night. Well, do I look like I'm gonna party all night? I was 50. So I just I just wanna come in and stay the night, have breakfast, and and do a bit and and ride the donkeys up the beach or anything. I was like, yeah. Did you Saba Ali: ride the donkeys up the beach? No. I didn't. No. No. No. I was a Joanne Lockwood: bit too heavy. I was in excess of 20 stone. I think I'd have killed the donkey if I did that. So I got I got a good a good satisfaction there because they asked me what does I want. I just said, look. What do I wanna come out of this this incident? And it's it's always for me, it's education. Yeah. I'm not looking for vengeance. I'm not looking for someone to be punished or have their life destroyed. I just want some education to occur, and the person just turns around and says, okay. I get it. Yeah. And I get it now. And maybe it won't happen to somebody else. So that's all the outcomes I've ever wanted is just education. Saba Ali: Yeah. Do you know what? I you're spot on, and I absolutely agree with you is, I mean, I I'm a great believer in restorative justice and kind of resolving conflict in a peaceful way. And sometimes, it's just a learning incident or learning piece for that individual. It's not about causing them distress or trying to make life difficult for them. It's just helping them understand that actually what you've done is not okay. And, you know, I'm a strong enough person. I can handle it. But the way you've behaved, if it was someone that was already suffering with some form of depression or with suicidal tendencies or was in distress and you behave like that, you don't know the detrimental effects you could have on that individual, and that's not okay. So, you know, I I I love that, you know, you're strong enough to be able to do that, and I I really applaud you for that because a lot of people wouldn't do that. They'd want revenge. And I just think sometimes revenge isn't always the best way forward. It really is making sure that person can see if they can see where they've gone wrong and why they shouldn't have behaved the way they're done. Because I think in the short time that I've known you or or the few years that I've known you, I definitely know you wouldn't be up all night partying or having sex parties as they say. Is that what happened? So I I I Joanne Lockwood: must have missed the invite to that one. Now I've I'm I'm I'm too long in the tooth for, for that now. Yeah. I I do I don't even enjoy drag karaoke anymore. It's like Oh, stormy. Yeah. No. We we can't Saba Ali: go there because that'll go down a whole another tangent, and I'll end up people will end up hating me if we start going down the drug route. I do like my karaoke, though. I've I've I Joanne Lockwood: suppose since I stopped drinking, I'm I'm not as as outgoing as I was. But when I was drinking, I was always grab the microphone and, and try and do Jolene or something badly or, Suspicious Minds was my Alvis' favorite. That was always one of my go to, Suspicious Minds. Oh, wow. Because I was caught in a trap, a bit of Born This Way, a bit of Gaga, a bit of that kind of stuff. Yeah. All that kind of but, yeah, I I did like a bit of a sing like no one's listening, and then the people who are listening wish they weren't because I'm I don't have a voice. I have a have a scream, which is a but I'm quite happy to express myself loudly and, have fun. So yeah. But no. I I think sometimes we get we get we do get stereotyped as that that, the RuPaul Drag Race type act or the the characters from the nineteen seventies. And everyone to their own. I'm not thinking against in fact, I embrace people who want to express themselves in using drag as a performance and and dressing up and doing what they do. Absolutely. I think there's some amazing people out there taking that art forward and express themselves and challenging people's perspectives. You probably know Daniel Lisfeld. I met Daniel Yes. At events several years ago, and what he does with clothing as a performance, as an art. Yes. It's absolutely incredible. I think he is he is stunning, isn't he? And not necessarily in a in a raw beauty way, but in a creation way. So the whole everything is is bespoke. It's a different outfit each time, and it's incredible. It upcycles everything he wears, Saba Ali: and you're a it's a working piece of art. Joanne Lockwood: Working piece of art. Yeah. And, yeah, I had I had a great night chatting to him. I think it was a a queer Britain fundraiser a few years ago I met. Oh, Yeah. And, I think I think because he's quite a tall person. He's a very Tommy puts all of his outfit on, he's very, very tall with all this out. And I he was standing on his own. And I just I guess, because he's a he's a statue of art sort of thing. So he deliberately wants to stand there. And I just never I started talking to him, and I and I spoke to him about an hour and a half. We're just chatting away and doing the canopies and the drink and stuff. And it was yeah. I had a great hour with him, and I hope to get him on the podcast at some point. He keeps saying yes, but he he'll never manage it because he's such a busy person, haven't he? He Saba Ali: is. He's done, we we've done some advocacy and campaigning work together, in the past. So we we've worked on a few projects together, because he does use a lot of his art for activism as well. But he's got an absolute heart of gold, and he's so just like you said, when you look at him, you just wouldn't imagine it, but he's got one of the softest, most compassionate people, you or me, and Yeah. Absolutely huge, huge ally for the trans community. Really not afraid to speak his mind. You know, he really says it as it is. Have a lot of time Very well connected globally, though, isn't he? He's, yeah, done some Joanne Lockwood: work with rulers and leaders of Far East countries and across America, and it yeah. He's he's had some amazing gigs, if you like. Yep. Yeah. And then he's incredibly well connected. Saba Ali: He's introduced me to a few people as well. Yeah. He's amazing. In fact, he introduced me to Tine, Tine O'Connell, doing some stuff with her. So she's, she does some incredible stuff. She's a British historian. So I know she's writing a book at the moment where she hopes to launch later this year on Malthref, which will be really interesting. So we'll have to bring you along to that one when she launches that. Oh, I'd love to. Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to. So you're not coercing me. You're just offering me an opportunity to Oh, no. I'm just telling you. I'm inviting you. Yeah. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm I'm in. Saba Ali: Yeah. It'll be a book launch for her book, Malefrey. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That'd be fabulous. So going back to when we started this conversation, you were talking about some of your early childhood trauma of your mum, your mother, and your home environment. I was a trustee of AKT for a while, the formerly the Alberta County Trust, the LGBTQ plus human homeless charity. And some of the the stats they came out with are homelessness amongst young queer people, especially young TQ people, is, disproportionate. And if you're black, intersectionally black, it's even more disproportionate. A lot of people, even in 2025, are being forced out to the streets, living with families that are toxic. How can young queer people or anybody who's living in that toxic environment get out? Because when we're when we're young, our family is everything. Yes. And we don't know anybody else. It's, so Saba Ali: difficult. I tried to run away from home when I was 15, but I got caught. And, yeah, it's it takes a lot. I mean, you've you've either got to be a absolute rock bottom to just walk out the door and leave everything. As a young person, you don't it's not like you, you know, you've got a job and other support and things that are gonna provide for you. But to kinda literally just walk out of your home and leave everything behind, that's really in a desperate state. There aren't many refuges. There's the, Outside Project and, or Star is it Star Support? Who, I think Star Support is the first LGBT refuge that opened in London, which, sadly, Marie opened, and she passed away last year last year. And I remember speaking to her just before she let me know that it it was opening. We both used to be trustees for Gallup. So I used to be trustees for Gallup, and that's how I met Marie. And I remember her saying to me that, you know, they already had a waiting list, and they were full, and it hadn't even opened. You know, I think one of the things that I'm really aware of and one of the things that actually I speak to the I've spoken to the police about is, you know, where do we signpost young people in their time of need? Because there are no refuges or places for young people, especially if you're queer, it's even harder because you've got that intersectionality, you've got the homophobia, transphobia where people You have the added fear of coming out or being your authentic selves around people. There've been incidents of young people that have left home because of conversion therapy, because, you know, if they weren't conformed to what their family wants, then they're gonna be subjected to talk to I call it talk to therapy. I think conversion, it's not really converting someone. It's torturing them. Yeah. So it's it's a really difficult situation. And there there's just not enough support for LGBT plus people out there, especially the trans community and even more so for people that are marginalized within the community. So when it comes to disability, when it comes to faith, when it comes to race, you know, if you add that on top of it, it's even harder. There's just nothing out there. And it it it's a conversation I've had a few times with a few people that, you know, what support is out there? There's just there's nothing. And on the back of I think a few years ago, Gallup did some research, I think, when the whole anti trans rhetoric really, you know, when excuse my French, but when shit hit the fan a few years ago, there were refugees that were turning away trans people because it was causing problems because gender critical people were turning up at their doors, or people within the refuge didn't want them there. So for the trans community in fact, this was about eighteen months ago, because I remember we discussed it in a way day for Gallup, the trustees did, that, you know, for trans people, even more so when it comes to homelessness, they have absolutely nowhere to go. So they either end up on the streets, they end up in potentially could end up in sex work to get the money to kind of rent or stay somewhere or be in an accommodation. But it's horrendous out there. It's really not safe at all, and there is nothing. You know, funding's being cut left, right, and center. Fund is being cut from institutions, let alone charities. It's it's awful. There is nowhere for people to turn. You know? We need more support. We need more homes. We need more, services to be able to cater and support these individuals because the situation's getting worse. And, I follow a lot of work that hope not hate do, just because I I sort of, I do a lot of stuff around hate crime. So and I'm really interested in the work that hope not hate do around the far right. And, you know, they said at the beginning of last year that there would be a rise of the far right and what they would do. And we we've seen that. And we've seen, you know, in the last kinda couple of months what's been happening in the media. And it's you know, sadly, I don't think it's gonna get any better. I still think it's gonna get worse, especially with social media taking away all the filters, and people seem to be more emboldened at the moment. And Yeah. I don't don't wanna say the t word, but with the t word back, it he's just given carte blanche for people to do and say and behave how they want. We've got leaders on stages doing Nazi salute, so it's not a good place. We we need support, you know, which is why to me, even if it's just meeting in a park or meeting anywhere or doing online support groups, being able to just listen to people, speak to people, knowing that they've got someone they can turn to and speak to is so important and why we need to come together. We need to sort of start working together. It's sad to me that I see Joanne Lockwood: many people in the communities where we share trans, queer are making public statements on Facebook about them pulling off the platform. And, yeah, I mean, people worry that it's gonna become very toxic, but there is a lot of good in the groups and the private chats and the environments there. So I'm really keen, as I would call it, hold the rope. I'm not letting go. I'm not gonna exit place by Facebook because there's so many supportive groups, so many people out there that I know that they've got my back. We can talk about things. I think if we're not careful, what we end up doing is we end up being driven out of this supportive environment by these big, glib statements. I think what we should do is just stand in protest and say, I'm not leaving anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. And I, hopefully, Facebook won't become a a tumbleweed zone for queer people because there's a lot of a lot of private groups and communities out there that are safe spaces. I hope so because I don't really use Facebook. I mean, I I Saba Ali: haven't done for a long time. I don't. I can only manage one or two social media platforms. But I hope so because I think that that community focused community groups is so important at the moment. The word chosen family gets used a lot, and I think at this moment, we need our chosen family. We need some few around us, whether it's groups of two or three. You know, you only need one person to listen to you to feel, you know, that the problem's halved. You know, I I I do believe in that saying that inner problem shared is problem halved because I do it all the time and I feel better the minute I've let it go and released it. And sometimes it's not necessarily solving a problem. It's just being able to share it and telling someone that, look, oh my God, this is how I'm feeling. And knowing that someone's there listening to you, supporting you, it you know, it's it's enough in your time and need. Big scene unheard is Joanne Lockwood: so I often think about it. If you think about the the analogy, blowing into a straw and blowing into a balloon. If you're blowing into a straw, there's no pushback, there's no back pressure. You've no idea if you're making a difference. But as soon as you pump into a balloon, you can feel it. So when you've got support, you've chosen family, you've got people around you, even though it's just reflect, share you, have a hug, have a virtual hug, have a tell me more. It's it's a way of really allowing yourself to sort of have that human connection, that human contact, isn't it? Yeah. Definitely. How do you what Saba Ali: do you do to sort of unwind or have downtime or look after yourself? Because, I mean, you do a lot of stuff as well. So how do you Well, something Joanne Lockwood: wife, Marie, who loves me to bits, and we are soulmates and best friends, and we do lots of everything together when we're not when we're not doing work and stuff. But we we work together. She's she's part of the business. So my mom is incredibly supportive. Yeah. I when I transitioned eight, nine years ago, she's become one of my biggest allies, and she'll advocate for me. My our two children and their their their partners, it wasn't necessarily get me and fully understand me that we have a great family. So we do Sunday lunches, we do family stuff, we go to the cinema. That's so Saba Ali: nice. So I live in a very, very, very safe Joanne Lockwood: family unit. So and I and I have an incredible network of of of business friends who are a lot of them are real friends, around the world that I've built over the last eight or nine years. I'm incredibly privileged that I I have that network, and I've got my my my my my real family and my chosen family, and they're all together. And they're so, yeah, for me, is he I say, I'm lucky. I'm privileged. And I but I know many people who are isolated. Their their home life is toxic or there's a conflict there between who they are coming out, having to behave in certain ways around certain family members. So, yeah, whatever I did write, I did write. Saba Ali: That's so nice to hear, and it's so lovely to hear as well because I think amongst all the doom and gloom, when you do hear positive stories, it it is uplifting, and it does kind of make you feel warm that there is that goodness out there as well. It's not just all gloom, and people are Joanne Lockwood: So Marie and I want other people to feel that way. So it's it's part of Marie's Mhmm. If you like, drive to to work with me in the business is to enlighten the world that it doesn't have to be doom and gloom. I appreciate for some it is, but we wanna rewrite that book. You know, the book that says you're gonna lose your house, you're gonna lose your car, you're gonna be fine, you're just everyone's gonna hate you and always rejected. We said, no. No. We're not we're not we're not having that book. We're we're writing our own book. That's about how families can succeed, how just because someone is comes out as trans, queer, gay, or whatever they come out as, It doesn't have to be the end of their life. And we we should people hope either with their traditional family or help with their chosen family and of support because living the lie or living in a box is is not not a future for anybody. They shouldn't have to live that way. Saba Ali: No. Do you know you were reminded me actually of something that I I remember having a conversation since a few years ago with someone, and they were saying, one of the things that we don't do as a community is actually celebrate people when they do come out or when they do transition. We always mourn the loss that, like, you know, parents lost their child you know, their son or their daughter, but we never celebrate the welcoming of a son or a daughter once a transition's taken place or welcoming that someone's come out and celebrating their true authentic selves. I think we need to do more of that in the community. We need to celebrate more and enjoy some of the times as well. I mean, Marie Marie often tells the story that Joanne Lockwood: when I when I transitioned, there was a real polarization between the support I got, which is very, very positive. Everyone's like, you're brave, the big hugs, and go girl, all this other stuff. And Marie got the sadness. Marie got the, oh, it's, you know, not too old. You could get divorced and find somebody else. Don't worry about it. You know, move on. She felt just, like, told her. No. It was, like, she even worked for counseling with somebody who's just been out through this. And the counselor's almost, like, taken down the path of, I can help you get over this relationship and move on. And we said, no. No. No. I want you to help me get into this relationship and make it work. But that was ten years ago, so I don't know if the the counseling or support you get is better now. But, no, Marie if you talk to Marie, she always felt the one who's two steps behind. Everyone loved me and was or I didn't know what to say though. It's like she was the bad smell, and I was kinda like the celebrity. So it really was a problem for maybe maybe it's just my personality type, but I kind of owned it quite quick quite quickly. So but, no. I mean, now that that's our that's our our drive is to try and show that you can scam work. Just because I'm trans doesn't mean to say I'm I'm gonna fit all the stereotypes that people can throw at me. I actually had quite a few trans couples Saba Ali: where they have transitioned and stayed together. I think I know about four or five, and they're really happy in their relationships. Because I guess you fall in love with the person, don't you? The inside of a person, not the kind of outside. I don't know Yeah. If that makes sense. But it is it is a big ask, you know. Joanne Lockwood: If you look at it, what you're asking someone to do is question their whole sexual identity as well. Mhmm. I I'd question my gender identity, but my gender identity has a an outward impact on how they see themselves in public as two women or two men together, whereas they were seen as a a traditional couple. Now we're seen as a queer couple. So Marie had to come out as queer, as bi, and she had to address her own sexuality. So everybody in a relationship Yeah. Wants or is able to or needs to to make the change. So I can't understand why it's hard for trans people and their parts to stay together because we're asking everybody to reorientate who they are. I was bad enough for Phillip Schofield coming out in a in a relationship. So yeah. But it's a big big ask. I I think early on, I asked myself the question in my head, how would I feel if Marie transitioned? Wow. Could I could I cope? And I I sat there and I've I I would honestly openly say, I know I would struggle. Knowing everything I know, I would struggle to come to terms with it. I'm not saying I wouldn't come to terms with it. Mhmm. But it would take all of my personal Mhmm. Thinking and support to make it happen. So, yeah, it's it is a big ask. And I think sometimes you just think, hard transition. You'll get over it, and it'll all be easy. I respect the fact it's not easy. That's it requires work, like anything. Well, she's definitely one to keep then. Oh, yes. No. She's buying. Don't it's not going anywhere. No. Hands off. Hands off. Hands off. No. She's Saba Ali: she's a diamond. The, Beyond Reflections event. I do remember. Yeah. She's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. No. She's, she's one Joanne Lockwood: in a million. She's my she's my one in a million or our. We share we share each other. So, no, she's fantastic. We we live, love, laugh. We shout and scream and fight like everybody else. But, no, it's a it's a strong relationship. That's what makes it fun. There'll be boring. Yeah. It was just all kinda Saba Ali: flat lined and what I know. Yeah. You got to spice up a bit. Joanne Lockwood: Sarah, this has been an absolute fantastic conversation. I can't believe we've been dashing for now. So, how do people get a hold of you? I you can get me, on Saba Ali: Instagram or just Saba or Saba Celebrity Care. There's a whole other conversation for that name. Or you can get me on LinkedIn. It's Saba Ali and then followed by f r s a. So I use LinkedIn quite a lot, so that's a good place to get me. And then you can find out more about who I am and what I do. Joanne Lockwood: Saba, s a b a, Ali Ali. And there aren't many of you out there, so it's probably easy to find you. Yep. Just look for Saba Ali: the kind of round head, sort of semi shaved head, and it's Big glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Love your Joanne Lockwood: glasses. They're great glasses. Love them. Thank you. They're my computer Saba Ali: glasses, actually. I've started wearing them. Otherwise, I get headaches because I'm I'm used to to taking, like, screen breaks. And I realized that I'm sat on my computer for, like, four hours, and then I'm like, oh my god. I haven't moved. It's pretty bad. Wow. Thank you so Joanne Lockwood: much for your time today, and, look forward to catching you up at one of the RSA circles. And anybody else who's listening right now, if you wanna get stuck in, you've heard something here, contact Saba, and you'll find more about these circles and or the fellowship of the RSA as well. So, Saba, thank you. Thank you so Saba Ali: much, Sean. I'd loved it. It's been brilliant. Thank you. Thanks, Jo. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.