---
title: "Healthcare With A Heart"
episode: 155
date: 2025-04-10
guest: "Susie Green"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/155-healthcare-with-a-heart
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-155/audio.mp3
---

# Healthcare With A Heart

Joanne Lockwood speaks with Susie Green, co-founder and co-director of Anne Health, about what it takes to provide compassionate, medically responsible healthcare for trans people at a time when access is increasingly politicised. Susie shares how becoming the parent of a trans child led her into advocacy and support work, and how early isolation and the search for community shaped her understanding of what families need. Together, Joanne and Susie unpack today’s hostile media narratives and the practical impact they have on real lives, including fear, burnout, and people being pushed into unsafe routes when healthcare is denied. The conversation explores systemic barriers across the UK and beyond: long waiting lists, GP reluctance, the effects of policy decisions such as the puberty blockers ban, and why denying care is not a neutral act. Susie outlines why Anne Health was created, the model it uses to prioritise personalised care and access to real human support, and the organisation’s commitment to doing this work legally, safely, and with appropriate clinical oversight. The episode closes with a call for empathy, informed practice, and sustained allyship, highlighting the importance of support networks and accessible, affirming healthcare for trans people and their families.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Understanding and Supporting a Trans Child
- 06:18 — Finding Support in Community
- 11:06 — Support for Vulnerable Minorities
- 19:23 — Unfazed by False Criticism
- 22:33 — "Online Criticism Turned Humour"
- 30:43 — CAS Report's Bias on Puberty Blockers
- 35:39 — Trans Healthcare Discrimination Issues
- 39:50 — Challenges in Trans Youth Healthcare
- 45:17 — Timely Legal Advice Ensured Compliance
- 48:47 — Helpline Support and Medical Advocacy
- 53:13 — Opposition to Conversion Practices
- 58:32 — Media Bias in Trans Representations

## Key takeaways

- The personal catalyst behind the creation of Anne Health and its mission to provide comprehensive support for trans individuals.
- The impact of societal and political rhetoric on the lives of trans people, especially trans youth.
- The ethical considerations and human rights issues surrounding puberty blockers and gender-affirming care.
- The significant challenges and barriers trans individuals face in accessing timely and appropriate medical care.
- The dangers and consequences of forcing untreated puberty on trans youth as a method of so-called 'assurance'.
- Developing sustainable, compassionate, and legally sound healthcare models for the trans community.
- The importance of human touch and real-life interactions in providing medical assistance versus reliance on AI-driven healthcare solutions.

## FAQs

### What is the main topic of this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast?

This episode, titled "Healthcare with a Heart," centres on providing compassionate and accessible healthcare for trans people of all ages. The discussion features Susie Green, co-founder and co-director of Anne Health.

### Who is Susie Green, and why is she an important figure in trans healthcare?

Susie Green is the co-founder and co-director of Anne Health. She has been a prominent advocate for trans rights and healthcare, inspired by her experiences raising a trans child. She works tirelessly to improve access to compassionate and medically sound healthcare for the trans community.

### What inspired Susie Green to start her journey in trans healthcare advocacy?

Susie Green was inspired to become an advocate after her daughter expressed that she should have been a girl at the age of four. This personal experience led Susie to educate herself and support her daughter, eventually leading to her broader advocacy for trans rights and healthcare.

### What is Anne Health, and what problem does it aim to solve?

Anne Health is an organisation co-founded by Susie Green, dedicated to providing compassionate, accessible healthcare for trans people of all ages. It aims to fill the gap in quality and personalised healthcare services for trans individuals, especially in light of the challenges they face with NHS services and other providers.

### How did Anne Health manage to launch despite initial financial difficulties?

Anne Health was able to launch thanks to a significant financial gift from a benefactor who believed in their mission. This funding was crucial for kickstarting the organisation and providing the needed services.

### What kind of challenges does Anne Health face in providing trans healthcare?

One of the major challenges Anne Health faces is the potential legal and societal backlash against providing healthcare services to trans individuals, especially youth. They have, however, received robust legal advice to ensure their operations are within the legal framework.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 155 with the title, Healthcare with a Heart. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Susie Green. Susie is the cofounder and co director of Anne Health, dedicated to providing compassionate, accessible health care for trans people of all ages. And when I asked Susie to describe her superpower, she said that it is empowering trans kids and their families with care, resilience, and love. Hello, Susie. Welcome to the show.

Susie Green: Lovely to be here, and, good morning. Yeah. I've been looking

Joanne Lockwood: forward to this. We we Chesed, I think, on LinkedIn probably 6 months ago, then we met at the Trans of the City Awards night, back in November on, Trans Day of remembrance or no. Trans AF Wish of Visibility, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm I've I've been a huge fan of the work you've done. I've I've come across you and your organizations in in over the years. So it's a real honor. So you've been at the forefront, as I probably just implied, of trans health care and supporting people for years. So what first inspired you to do this? Well, it was having a trans kid. And

Susie Green: before I knew I had a trans kid, I knew nothing about trans rights, trans kids, trans people in general. I was, you know, completely oblivious and knew nothing. But when my daughter told me that god had made a mistake and and she should have been a girl at 4 years old, I had to learn, and I had to learn quickly because I needed to be there to support her. And as her biggest advocate, I needed to learn what I could do and what was out there. And I I knew nothing, absolutely nothing. I didn't. I knew of the existence of trans people, obviously, but I certainly, I suppose, I just hadn't really thought about the fact that trans trans adults were trans kids. You know? They had to have been trans kids. So having a trans kid was, a bit of a wake up call for me, and it took a lot of digging and searching and trying to find out what I could do to best support her, including, you know, going to the GP. I found the website of mermaids online and phoned the helpline number when when Jackie was 6 because by this point, I'd spent a lot of time telling her it was okay to be a boy and like girl things, and she just kept telling me that, no, she was a girl. That's 2 years of literally sort of ignoring what she was telling me and trying to reiterate a different reality to her, and she never wavered. So at 6, I, found the mermaids website online and and called them and sort of that set in motion things that sort of have have ended up with me here where I am now.

Joanne Lockwood: So just put some context in that. Your daughter is now in her twenties or thereabouts?

Susie Green: Early thirties. Early thirties. Wow. It's early thirties.

Joanne Lockwood: So we're talking about a considerable amount 25 years ago, give or take here. Yeah. A long time. Yeah. So we we you can't escape but notice the the opinions and rhetoric in the world around trans people, trans children, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. We're going back to an era here of 2,000 ish, 9,200,021, where it was pre equality act 2010, pre gender recognition act 2004. It was pre Facebook, really. So how did you find people to support you? Because in those days, it was like the wild west, I guess. There was no information. I mean, I

Susie Green: found a single paragraph in a book on raising boys that talked about girly boys and said that they were likely to be gay. That was it. And then when she asked me at 4, you know, that's when that's when I found that paragraph in the book, saying that she she would be gay. And I kind of was waiting for that narrative to to switch, but she never she never stopped saying that this is who she was. So I think it was, it was an Ask Jeeves search, so it was likely So let's go back and read it. Ask Jeeves. Isn't it? Ask Jeeves. Yeah. And I think I typed in something like my son says says I want to be a girl. And Mermaids was one of, like, 3 sites that came up. And the only one that I could actually get through to there was I think the Beaumont Trust was another one. They had a phone number, but nobody was answering, and Mermaids was about 3 or 4 down. And I spoke to one of the founder members. I think Mermaids had been going for about 4 years by that point. And I spoke to one of the founder members and had a conversation. It was the first time I spoke to anybody who understood what it felt like because the lady that I spoke to had a 70 a then 17 year old trans daughter. The relief was immense. It was just enormous to to know that somebody else was was living through this and had some answers for me and some direction. I think I cried for, like, probably the majority of that conversation because it was I don't know. I suppose I I was expecting a different outcome. I was afraid of verbalizing what I knew was happening, But I just got this, this huge outpouring of love and support, and I then joined the there was a Yahoo group, online Yahoo group that I joined. I think there were about 30 people across the UK that were on that group, and I joined that group and started talking to to other families, parents with with kids. And I suppose that really was was kind of it for the next sort of 4 to 5 years. Excuse me. They told me about the Tavistock Gender Identity Service, and I went back to my GP who I'd spoken to when Jackie was 4 and told me initially that that God had made a mistake and she was really a girl. And I went back to I went to the GP, and she said, oh, he'll grow out of it. No signs of that happening still. You'd hope that at 30 30 something. Yeah. At 30 something. But yeah. So that was where that's what that was where I got the the initial support and that for, like, the first few years, I was just a member of that parents group, I wasn't really actively doing very much other than just seeking support and speaking to other families as I needed. Very strange. It's a long time ago.

Joanne Lockwood: I know. I know. You said growing out of it. I suppose in my own life, I've grown into it rather than growing out of it. It's like it's finding that comfy pair of slippers or that that I snuggly it off and go, this this is me. It fits. And, Yeah. Yeah, there's no out. It's definitely definitely in. So, you know, a lot of the rhetoric you hear today is around if we educate our children to be about trans awareness and gender identity, all these genders, What that's gonna do is it's gonna persuade them it's a good idea, and they should do it. It yeah. I'm I'm obviously saying that tongue in cheek, you know. Yeah. It's Yeah. That's that's the rhetoric that's, that's prevalent in today's mainstream media and and the world, isn't it? And

Susie Green: why would anybody choose this? It's really hard. Why would anybody choose this? It it's it's an alien concept to me that that you would, as a as a person, you would especially now with with all of the anti trans narratives taking up so much space in media and, everywhere. Why would you choose this? You just wouldn't. I speak to families day in, day out. I speak to young people day in, day out. And if this wasn't the only way that they could live Right. The this they wouldn't choose this because it's hard. It's really hard. And it's getting harder because the narrative is getting worse and worse, and people are being basically, they're being made to feel ashamed of who they are, which is horrible and really disturbing. And as, you know, as you say, it's it's it's simply a question of being able to live authentically. Everybody else has gets to do that. Why shouldn't trans people have the same right? It's and why does it affect anybody else? It's nobody else's business. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I've noticed the the kind of

Joanne Lockwood: attack vector more over the last few years into trans people are predators. Trans people are trying to all the trans people are now trying to destroy the lives of young children and ruin their lives and mutilate their bodies with chemicals, chemicals, and surgery, and life changing or operations before they're even 10. Painting this picture of this big chunky trans woman with a knife in one hand and a bottle of pills in the other, forcing it down a trans child's throat. That's that's what keeps that's in people's heads, isn't it? We're scaring people into believing that this is some sort of bad thing to help people

Susie Green: help young children. I tell you, there's a there's a picture that I saw on social media the other day because I you know, I'm obviously a lot of people's favorite person. And, there's a picture of me and it's that it's like a a cartoon image of me with a big grin with a big needle in my hand. It's just just really, really stupid. It's and it's you look at what's going on the narratives that are being said. These people who are pushing these narratives, there are so many things in the world in terms of injustices and things that that they could be concentrating on. Instead, they choose to persecute a vulnerable minority and make their lives so much harder than they than it they need to be. And they're doing this with this almost over overzealous rigor to to basically stamp trans people out of existence. Yet there are so many things that do actually need that level of concentrated effort to to address, including, you know, violence against women. And they're choosing to to go after trans kids and trans women in particular instead. And it just I don't know. It I it completely baffles me. I have I just can't understand that. I just can't understand it. Why on earth do they have such a focus on something that is never gonna impact their own lives? And why do they think it's okay to to go after kids and and and to make out that they should be ashamed of who they are and and that their inherent being is is wrong. I just find it find it really difficult to come to terms with that that level of venom is is being constantly addressed at at children and trans women in as I say in particular. Why? Why do you look look at climate change? You know, for goodness sake, you need some concentration on things like violence against women, against climate change, against, you know, corruption in politics and and within the system. You know, we've we've got we've got these these very, very rich men at the center of of, you know, billionaires, nearly trillionaires, obviously, who are basically manipulating the population. Why aren't they concentrating on what's being done to, you know, everyone who isn't in those positions and highlighting the injustices of all of those things rather than going after a vulnerable minority who are simply just trying to get on and live their lives. That's all. I've got lots of of transgender people in my lives as well as well as my daughter who I love very much, And that's all they wanna do. They just wanna get on and live. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I look you look at the news, they look at all these atrocities and terrible things that are going on. And none of them are trans people. We're talking about No. Not. Leading figures in churches and faith groups. We're talking about leading people in sports organizations. We're talking about people leading people in communities, protecting each other in the as you say, in these groups of of of of privilege who are kind of keeping silent. And then say, well, but they're a nice person, really. Yeah. They just they just turned away to the dark side for a bit. We need to let them. It's in you you look at those things. And none of these people are trans. None of these people are pretending to be trans or or using it as an excuse. And it's like, that's the frustration. We see cisgender women murdering children, babies. None of those people are trans. So that I I think that's that's the frustration that I as a as a trans woman and many other trans people face thinking, hang on a minute. There are other people out there doing what you're saying, but it's not anyone who's saying they're trans. Yeah. And that's so frustrating. So frustrating. So frustrating.

Susie Green: And the narrative has has gained ground in in by the general population's head. You know? They're they're listening and seeing this. And even the though there is no evidence of of what is being said. I had a I remember a conversation that I had about 6 months ago with somebody where she went, oh, it's just gone too far now. She's like, you know, they're trying to take the word mother out of pregnancy materials. And I went, no. They're not. They're not. And she was like, what what do you mean? I said, no. They're not. I said, they're adding in additional stuff so so that it it supports, you know, people who are are not female, who have a uterus and who may want to have babies, but they don't will never see themselves as, you know, mother or mom because they're not. I said, so they're adding in. I said, they're not taking away. I said, it it's just nonsense. And why why would that be something why would anybody want to, you know we don't get more rights at at the detriment of others. It just means the world is more equal for everybody. I said it's and she actually said, you know, I feel embarrassed now because, actually, I've realized that I've I've been taken in by the rhetoric. And Yeah. That's the headlight. How easy how easy was that? I know. You're tough. Easy was that for you to lead that in your life? Yeah. Yeah. That's the lead.

Joanne Lockwood: Taking the word mother out, destroying thousands of years of language and Yeah. Is it? But but the target is still trans women. Yeah. It's me that's, yeah, that's causing this. And I and I can't hang on a minute. I'm a woman. I'm trans woman. I don't wanna take the word mother out. I've got no interest in in in degendering language. It's not I I'm gendered. Yeah. What we're using is is the non binary people who want to get this recognition. And suddenly, it's a trans woman problem as being part of trying to destroy society. And it's like, hang on a minute. Or Never. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Susie Green: Exactly. This is not this was not the intention. This was never. It was about being more inclusive, not less. And and and they just they this fake outrage. I

Joanne Lockwood: know. I get blamed for gender neutral toilets. It's like, I don't want I don't I don't care about gender toilets. I mean, yes, They're nicer. They're easier. They're more convenient. The shopping centers and car parks, things like this. Great. I'm happy with just a toilet. Yeah. Something I can shut the door. Well, I'm not banging on about this, that, and the other. And it's again, these arguments are being conflated with sort of, like, gender outrage, trans women, and poor trans men are just going, just get let me grow my beard and get on with life. It's kind of thing. Yeah.

Susie Green: Yeah. I know. It's it's exhausting. And I can see why a lot of the community are so burnt out and, you know, and and they're stepping back and why people who are in the public eye who are being attacked constantly, why they might feel, I don't know, not just tired tired of of being blamed for something that, you know, is not their fault. You've, you've obviously been in the

Joanne Lockwood: public eye for 15, 20 years, probably, I guess quite a bit, especially through your role within mermaids and what you're doing now, which we'll talk about in a minute. It's pretty brutal out there, isn't it? The attention you get, the the negative attention that what people accuse you of. I

Susie Green: mean, it's quite funny, really. I mean, I know the truth. You know, that's the that's the thing for me. I speak to I speak to the young people. I speak to the families. I speak to, you know, as I say, so many people in my life now that I love are are trans because of, obviously, the direction that, my life has taken. But I I know the truth. So I read this stuff and it actually just makes me laugh, really. The the the venom and the and the the stuff that's aimed at me, it's quite funny, because none of those things are true. I don't I'm I I stopped a long time ago worrying about what other people's opinions who hold these opinions of me are because I know I know what I'm doing and what, you know, my, you know, what my co director, co founder Lizzie is doing, and I know what our team is doing, and I know that the people that I've worked with over the years who, you know, who have with alongside me, I, you know, been allies as well as members of the community. I know what we're doing is the right thing. And those negative, conversations, they don't they don't touch me. The things that they say about me, they don't bother me because they're not true. And, actually, I say, quite comical, some of them. I I love I love every now and again, something will come out. I think after after exited Mermaids, there was a lot of jubilation about, oh my goodness. We've managed to get her. She's gone. And then when Anne Health launched, the reaction was was hysterical. And it was like, oh my god. Susie Green. I think one of the ones that, I screenshot and put sort of, like, on my screen, I wish she'd just shut up. But, yeah, it's yeah. Yeah. I don't really care what they say, but I know for other people, you know, it it really hurts.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I look at my web stats on a daily basis, and all of a sudden, they'll they'll jump through the roof, and it's all on my bio page or the home page or something. And I go, okay. So I look at the sources, and that would be x.com or twitter.com. It will be Mumsnet. It'll be some other site. Okay. Okay. So I I hunt down the article to see what they're saying. And it's like, oh, yeah. Here we go. It's almost like playing hate bingo. Oh, yeah. You said that. You said that. Dodgy wig, evil smile, staring eyes. We've got all yeah. We tick tick. Yeah. Yeah. You've shit all the Facebook groups on that one. Thank you. Yeah. We call them, MUNSNET

Susie Green: is, Prosecco Stormfront. It's, like, just this quagmire of, entitled, women discussing things and and professing outrage, but, you know, not one of them is actually dealing or supporting a trans person in their lives at all. So they're just poking their nose into stuff that is none of their business. Well, it'll start off with

Joanne Lockwood: AIBU. Am I being unreasonable? Yeah. Actually, you probably are, if you don't mind. That's actually Yeah. Every now and again, if I want a bit of

Susie Green: a giggle, I'll have a I'll I'll go put my name into mom's net and have a look at what the what the most recent stuff is. But, hang on. I do it for a laugh sometimes and sometimes screenshot it. I when

Joanne Lockwood: I'm doing keynotes and talks, all I sometimes do is is is post some of the latest. You know, most people put testimonials on there, so I I just do negative testimonials. Shelley, this is what people think of me. I think I was acquitted to Joseph Mengele at one point trying to destroy children. It's like right? Well, yeah. I mean, I there's there's

Susie Green: there's actually some somebody did a mock up of the, child catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and put my face on it. That was funny. That was funny. I mean, the best one the the one that, like, I'm I hold most dear was when after Caroline Farrow and Posey Parker went after me, and I spoke the police potentially about a harassment case, which I then dropped because I was thought I'm giving I'm giving them, like, a platform with this. But, somebody from America posted a picture of Ursula, from The Little Mermaid up and said this is Susie Green's TrueForm. And I was doing the mermaid's, social media at the time, and I just replied and said, but and they said, she can't sue me because I'm in America. And I just went back with this picture, and I just replied and said, but seriously, does my bum look big in this? And then I screenshotted it and had it as my profile picture for years. I loved it so much. And, you know, people, friends, family, etcetera, still buy me Ursula products just because they think it's fun. So but then, you know, she's she's the perfect baddie, isn't she? So Well, she said she's got a bit of a cuteness

Joanne Lockwood: about her as well. She's not completely evil, is she? She's she's cool. She's

Susie Green: cool. Yeah. I think she's cool as well. I think, yeah, we'll she's

Joanne Lockwood: probably a a fierce torture of of defense for us, for Ariel and things like that. I think she's she's there really. She's looking after everybody. Sorry. Yeah. We need we need really strong matriarchal characters in our in our pond, don't we, sometimes? Yeah. Why

Susie Green: not? As I say, she was she was my profile picture for a lot of years. Yeah. So glad you owned it. Yeah. It's

Joanne Lockwood: well, it it is. I think we've we've anybody who's in the public eye and wherever it in in wherever micro or macro way, you've you've just gotta be used to people having an opinion on you. I remember Brene Brown knew she'd made an impact when she got more as much hate as she got likes on her YouTube. So, see, and that's Brene Brown. So, you you know, it's it's it's everybody gets hate. Marmite, isn't it? You love me or hate me. That's fine. I'm cool with it. Yeah. Definitely. But it it's yeah. Where are we now? We're we're last couple of days of January 2025, and we're a few weeks on from events in the US where we're seeing a lot of, EOs, executive orders coming out around transferring the military, defunding, you know, rejecting transferring society, canceling driving licenses. So it's real it's a real state in the states. And that info that travels across across the Atlantic as well to us. We we can't be immune to what's going on over there, can we? No.

Susie Green: And it's it's really disturbing to see what's going on. I think yesterday, I spent in, like, a fog of disbelief about how bad it it's got. Though, to be honest, kind of expected this to happen when, obviously, Trump, got back in as president. You know, he started a lot of this when he in his previous term and tried to to move things in that direction. So these executive orders, although they're horrific, are not a massive surprise. And, obviously, there's work being done in the states to to push back against them. But trans health care for trans youth particularly, obviously, is being affected by the executive order that came out, you know, just over a day ago. And we're seeing within our organization, we're seeing, families with trans kids in America reaching out and saying, can you help us? Because access to their health care for their kids looks like it's gonna be shut down. And clinics are acting in advance of the order actually coming into law as well and turning peep you know, turning young people away from clinic appointments for blockers and stuff. So this is like I can't imagine what it must feel like to be a family with a trans kid in America right now. I really can't. I just it just I don't wanna think about it too much because it makes me feel so sad and really angry on their behalf about what they're they're being put through right now. It's, yeah, it's awful. And, obviously, we've got our own issues here with Westreting putting in the permanent ban against, puberty blockers for young people on the flimsiest of premises. And he spoke to a room, West Street Inc, spoke to a room full of of trans kids and their parents. And I've spoken to a parent who was in that space, and she said those 90 minutes were probably the most traumatic of her life because those kids shared what the blocker ban meant to them. And he said he heard them, and he looked them in the face. He looked them in the eyes and said he heard them, and then he went ahead and did it anyway. It's it's devastating. Politics has no place in health care. No place in health care. And this is going to at some point, this is all gonna be reversed. And this will be looked back as a particularly bleak and black stage of history for for trans youth and trans people in general. In

Joanne Lockwood: the same way, we looked at what went on with AIDS, what we looked on with section 28, what we looked on with racial discrimination, gender all the things we've we've looked back in our history and go, that's not a proud moment in time. And I I agree, and it's with West responding really, I don't wanna make excuses for him or anybody, from the cash report. You know, the cash report came out, in the last dying embers of the Tory government. Put it across the line. And on balance, it says some good things. There's some good things in the cash report. One is that we need better support for young trans people. We need to understand it better. So if you look at some of the positives, there's a lot of positives. Not one place in the cash report actually say, puberty blockers were banned. Because if they did, what would happen was that these these trials they're proposing or or embarking on, how how can you embark on a trial for something you've you've declared as being a bad thing? So I'm hoping the government do the trials. They they take the heat out of this negative rhetoric and go, actually, here's logical clinical evidence now, which we never had. So as I said, at the end, don't justify the means at all. I'm hoping that we come out with something really credible at the end of this. The only problem is the trial

Susie Green: itself is completely unethical to give an you know, this is this was presented at the women's select committee. Simona Giordano, who's a bioethicist, you know, hit the nail on the head. It's completely unethical to force people into a clinical trial by withholding access to treatment by any other means. It is unethical and it breaches people's human rights. And actually, lots of principles in terms of human rights are being are being trampled on by, you know, this process. And what about the control group that they're saying needs to be done? Yeah. The double blind. Yeah. The double

Joanne Lockwood: blinds. So That's not gonna work. They're just those kids are just gonna their their

Susie Green: puberty is gonna continue on, and they're just gonna drop out of the studies. And the emotional impact on those young people thinking that they've gone through all of this process, jumped through all of these hoops, then being accepted, and then their puberty progresses regardless. That emotional impact is gonna have that. That's a huge safeguarding risk. It's completely unethical. And it just it just highlights the fact that actually this medication can't be that bad if they're gonna do a clinical trial on it. If it was as dangerous as they say it is, then they couldn't they couldn't feasibly suggest that that a clinical trial is a is a good idea. And the fact is is that there's lots and lots and lots of evidence on, how puberty blockers assist in gender affirming healthcare. They just chose in the CAS report to disqualify all of those studies because it didn't fit their narrative. And we know that the CAS report is a political document because Cammiebad not stated as such that it was done deliberately, and trans people were not part of any, of the, team. So and their their re reason for doing that, that, the reason that they said that they didn't have trans people is because they didn't want, you know, it to be influenced. Now if you did a if you did a trial on if you did a a review on diabetes care, would having somebody with diabetes mean that that was that was, you know, biased. If you did a trial on autism, having members of, you know, of the group that were doing that review, you know, would having somebody who who actually was autistic on that, would that be biased? No, it wouldn't. It's only trans people. And it's only trans kids and trans women who have been subjected to this sort of narrative. And, you know, it's being debunked. The cast review is being debunked internationally, locally. There's so much evidence every day, more comes to light in terms of looking at the method the methodology, the the conclusions that they've reached, the the stuff that was said in there that has absolutely no basis in science or any research to back it up, that's just been popped in there as an opinion and has been taken as this holy grail of what of what trans health care for trans youth should be like. And it's a biased political document with an end game in sight, which which has come to pass. And I was really hoping that labor would would have, you know, the, you know, the foresight to look at this and go, this smells a little bit odd. You know? This isn't quite right. This doesn't seem to be, you know, led by the community. Nobody from the community was a part of this. Perhaps we should take this with a pinch of salt. And the fact that they're pushing the same narrative despite everything that's been said about it is a real concern. Real concern. Trans youth, though, is it? I mean, we look at

Joanne Lockwood: adult trans support, their gender identity clinics. The the waiting list, they're now seeing people who are referred in 2018, 2019. If you join the waiting list now, you're looking at 6 plus years, maybe even longer for first appointment.

Susie Green: Think it I don't even think it's 6 plus years. I think it was extrapolated in, that if you join the waiting list now, you'll be seen in 20 years because the numbers that have been seen off the waiting list that are coming off the with waiting list and the people that are being added, You're looking at 20 years. How how how You stand no chance at No. No chance. No. You

Joanne Lockwood: gotta go private. You gotta you gotta that it means you have to have privilege. You have to have the the means and the wherewithal. Even private appointments aren't quick because the limited availability of specialists in that in that area as well. Yeah. It it is it is horrendous. And, I I know many adults who are holding their heads in their hands, going, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna handle this? There there are very few places in the with the UK perspectives that you can go for support these days for for free. GPs don't wanna touch you now. I've got lots of friends who have been, deprescribed, if that's a word, from their GP, because it's like, oh, it's a bit risky. I'm not sure what I should do. Everybody needs to have a license. Okay. All trans. This is this is a risky area. I'm I've got justification now to be out of this and say, I I'm not I'm not comfortable. And that's the impact of these studies and the the rhetoric, isn't it? Yeah. And I think the thing is that GPs routinely prescribe

Susie Green: stuff that is, like, a 1000 times more toxic than HRT routinely to cisgender people day in, day out. Yet they're, you know, they go, oh, this is a specialist area. It's not. It's really not. It's not. But All the women I spoke to about menopause support, it it's clear that

Joanne Lockwood: GPs are just not comfortable talking about estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, doing blood tests, finding out about people, let alone testosterone. So that there's not a lot of yeah. They always wanna palm it off onto an endocrinologist or they want someone to come and tell them that it's okay. Yeah. People pass talk about these hormones as if they are powerful drugs. It's it's a it's a part of the natural body. Okay. They've been synthesized from cow urine or pig urine or bioidentical, whatever we're talking about. But they're not drugs as such. They're not they're not chemicals we're putting in our body. They're natural occurring hormones.

Susie Green: Yep. And using them to make people feel comfortable in in their own bodies. Why why is that such a big deal? I heard the stories, obviously, not stories. I heard the reports of the GP surgeries who just took all of their trans patients off their books and went, we're not we're not supporting you anymore. Blatant discrimination as as as evidenced by the fact that it said it said, just to complete, we are not dealing with trans people anymore. I hear it all the time, people telling us about their care being refused, that they've been on HRT for years, and the GP has always been, like, really supportive and not had an issue, and then suddenly an addict comes down from the practice, you know, manager or whatever, and and they're changing the rules and suddenly their access to to hormones is removed. 1,000 are being forced into self medication. And for for young people who don't have the means to access private care and for adults who don't have to means to access private care, it means that they're starting using dangerous, access means to be able to get what they need. It's it it doesn't stop people being trans, and it doesn't stop people seeking, to be able to feel more comfortable with the use of, you know, HRT hormones, etcetera. What it does is it forces people down roots that actually will will harm them. And that's despicable.

Joanne Lockwood: There's a a scene in, a hit Netflix, drama, Orange the New Black, where Laverne Cox, trans character I can't remember her character in the in the show, but Laverne Cox is suddenly denied, HRT medication, which she goes up to the counter, and they said, no. You can't have that anymore. And the panic set in in, I'm gonna grow hair. I'm gonna this and no. It's just gonna happen. It's like and that was in a prison scenario where you got no agency at all. So imagine how it is like if you're in America, the judicial system, or even the military, or in this country lacking privilege. That moment, you'll think, hang on a minute. My my life has been okay. It's been normal. It's I'm getting all the things. Suddenly, it's gone. Yeah. I mean, it's no different to women finding that there's no more estrogen gel or patches on the market. And something their their their menopause symptoms are gonna come back with a vengeance. And it was there then. It's exactly the same. Yep.

Susie Green: And we speak to people every day, every day who who are in that position, who are suddenly finding themselves with with this I don't I don't I I just I I sympathize and empathize with them so much because how how must it feel to suddenly have something that made you feel yourself, made you feel comfortable with yourself and enabled you to just get on with life and be suddenly taken away. And and then as you say, that panic that panic, that feeling of, well, what am I gonna do now? And that feeling that that your body is gonna betray you. Like, as you say, like, menopausal treatment and care. It's to remove that like it is is is so irresponsible and dangerous. And the impact on people's lives is, oh, it's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking conversations that I have every day are heartbreaking.

Joanne Lockwood: So this this is where your your vision and health came from, isn't it? Where the to create an organization that can enable people to safely access the support they need. Not just not just medication, but but support as well. It's not it's not just handing out things. It's about talking to people and listening to people. So do you want to tell us a bit more about what where the idea come from in your own words and and the problem it's solving and and how maybe some of the challenges you're having getting it going as well? Yeah. I

Susie Green: Anne Anne Health sort of in terms of the idea. Being part of Mermaids, being CEO of Mermaids, talking to families, young people, seeing what was happening in the UK with regards to access to health care for young people. I've seen thousands of of families struggle, with the NHS provision, but also access to private healthcare because the only other provider is is gender GP. So when I left Mermaiz at the end of November 2022, I went to work for gender GP. I knew Helen Webberly previously, when she started providing health care for trans people and then started to extend that to young people. And I really respected who she was and what she did, and the amount of attacks, and obviously the challenges that she faced and her husband faced because of that. So I went to work for Gender GP and sort of quickly realized that it it wasn't for me because what I saw, what I thought was was within Gender GP didn't come to pass, and it was clear that they weren't providing personalized, appropriately, medically overseen care. So whilst I was in there, Lizzie, my cofounder, co director, and I have known each other for years. And we started talking about there's got to be something better than this. There's got to be something that is actually as affordable as we can make it whilst also ensuring that there is, like, the quality of care with the proper medical oversight. And we wanted to get it going. And we we tried for from, like, the middle of of 2023, really up until the beginning of 2024. And and we've kinda given up about getting getting it started because we needed seed money to get going. And we were so frustrated because we could see how much the community desperately needed an alternative, especially for trans youth who were only had, as I say, the NHS, which is broken, and even more so now. And, obviously, gender GP, and we we knew there needed to be an alternative, but we just didn't have didn't have the means to get it going. And then we had a an amazing gift from a benefactor who said that they believed in what we were doing and that they wanted to help us. So they gave us, like, a chunk of cash to get going. So that's really how that started. So that was that was back in sort of March, April of last year. So we we did a lot of stuff behind the scenes. We worked with some trial patients to make sure that our process was was robust. We tried to get GMC doctors involved, and and we had a a couple of GMC registered doctors who were really, really keen, who really were supportive of the trans community, but they got warned off from working with a private health care company, particularly working with with trans young people. So in the end, we replicated to a degree the model that gender GP uses in terms of EU prescribers. But unlike gender GP, everybody sees their doctor. So literally part of the process is that you see your doctor and you see them regularly, and they, and they will talk you through your care and any questions, etcetera. So, yeah, we got started at the beginning of of 2024 with that amazing gift. Since then, it's gone from strength to strength. We came out as being, you know, to the public in July just as a as obviously, just after the puberty blocker ban had had been put into place. So we came out because we wanted people to know that there was an alternative and that, actually, we we were working towards providing a safe and legal route for people to be able to access puberty blockers so that the criminalizing of of parents, who just wanna help their kids would would, that we would find a way to to help them to do that legally. And, yeah, it's interesting. I think it's probably the best word. It's interesting how much, how much abuse, is aimed at us. But, again, like I said about me in general and and Lizzie's very robust, we we don't care. We we see we see the difference our services are making to trans people of all ages who need us, and we're gonna you know, we're here for the duration. We believe in what we're doing. We also are a registered, nonprofit as well. So we do also provide some subsidized care and are looking to expand on that. And as we as an organization continue to grow and as we have more, surpluses and not for profit, that will go to subsidize people's care who can't afford it. So we wish we could provide free free of care free of charge care for everybody. It's not possible. It's you know, we just can't. But we will try and help people as much as we can. That one, to simplify touching wood,

Joanne Lockwood: you haven't had anyone challenging you legally yet, have you? No. But that's we got some

Susie Green: very, very, very good legal advice at the very beginning. So we worked with David Locke, who is in terms of health care legislation legally. He's, he's sort of top of the trade. So we commissioned him and his team to look at what we were doing, the model that we were we were doing, and and to give us, like, their legal oversight into the best ways to ensure that we were as robust as possible. And I think that advice as as, you know, been very timely, bearing in mind the blocker ban, etcetera, and also is a protective factor because we know what we need to do to ensure that we're falling within the letter of the law, that we're not encouraging people to to do, you know, to to do criminal activities. We are literally talking to people about the way that they can get the support that they need, and we're doing it in a way that is perfectly, legitimately within within the scope of as a law. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm listening to people

Joanne Lockwood: like West Street and other people talking about puberty blocker ban, I often wonder if they're they're aiming at at gender GP primarily. It it sounds like that when they're they're not saying it explicitly, but they're kind of saying, well, these offshore doctors based on the other side of the world, we wanna stop them doing this, this, and this. And it's over that sounds like sounds like gender GP rhetoric. And It's it's so is.

Susie Green: It's so is. And, unfortunately, the the the the reports coming out of gender GP means that some of that concern is actually legitimate, in terms of, you know, Helen Webberly has stated clearly for the record and has done a Times interview where she talks openly about the fact that gender GPs run entirely on AI systems. So health care recommendations, except that it's all based on AI bots and an algorithm that she's put in for people. You know? So it's your health care is not overseen by a real person. It's a shame because our GeneralGP

Joanne Lockwood: helped me out 2014, 2015 in the early days when you when you were probably dealing with Helen yourself on these things. Yeah. Yep. So the yeah. They they certainly helped me self well, they took me off of real self med, which was, you know, Internet drugs and all those sort of things. It's all about and then at least got me into something that was a known source, from a UK online pharmacy. And then the GIC took over with a shared care agreement with GP. I was quite fortunate that I was probably before the problem just started developing. So yeah.

Susie Green: And I and I think I think AI bots don't have I mean, they have their place in medicine for, you know, sort of like automating systems, etcetera. But for health care, for recommending health care, overseeing blood tests, etcetera, that's that's not their place. You know? We need real life people. And we we run a helpline, so 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, and a web chat option so people can get in touch with us. And the actual relief that people feel when they speak to a real life person is immense. And we we get it all the time. We have people calling up and going, oh my goodness. I didn't actually believe that I'd be able to get through to a real life person, that I'd be able to actually talk to somebody. And, you know, we offer that that support from a helpline basis in terms of, like, general support as well as obviously support in terms of the medical process inside of it. Now one of the things that I experienced as a parent when I had to go through unconventional means to get my daughter medication, I had to take her, which is, like, ironic now, really. I had to take her to Boston in America to be seen by doctor Norman Spack at the Boston Children's Hospital. And that feeling of of being alone and and being isolated and doing something that's going against what the NHS was telling me because I was told that she had to go through a full now puberty to be sure that that's not what she wanted. And I was like, that's that's insane. That's insane. What you so you're saying that she has to go through all of this in terms of that emotional turmoil, torture, frankly, for her. And you're saying that she has to do that so that so that you can actually then acknowledge the fact that that wasn't the best thing for her. Madness. So, yeah, so we had to follow that route. But the one thing that I had with the Boston Children's Hospital, etcetera, was I had somebody to talk to. I had a really responsive doctor. Norman was amazing. And to be able to talk to somebody, to be able to get that reassurance, to be able to have those questions that come up answered was invaluable, which is why we are really clear that what we do at ANA is we're here for you. And we won't charge you just to talk to a real life person. That's just part of the care that you get, and we want you to feel comfortable, and we want you to feel safe.

Joanne Lockwood: That's what you're saying there is, like, we want your child, Jackie, to go through male puberty to prove that it's the right decision for her. I'm just thinking as you're saying now, I was thinking, look at all the rhetoric around trans people, I. E. Trans women. It's it's not being around a bush here, trans women in sport. The the current IOC and other regulations, plastics, you name it, all the rugby, everyone's come out with a rule. Basically, they're saying, if you've been through male puberty or then you're ineligible. So what we're saying is, what we need to do is go through your puberty as normal, work out when you get to the age of 15 that it wasn't right, and preclude yourself from ever being a professional sports person in any field, just in case you may be wrong. Whereas puberty blockers could have just given you that little bit of breathing time, let your brain mature a bit. You could take over a test drive, make sure you're comfortable with it. And then you you haven't precluded your the rest of your life from that decision because not doing something isn't a zero sum game either. So it it's it's it's it's It's

Susie Green: not a neutral act. To deny access to medication, to deny access to care is not a neutral act. And in fact, for trans young people, as we know from the reaction of families to to the blocker ban, is actually disastrous. And there's there's blood on West Street's hands already. There are young people who are not with us anymore because of what is happening with access to care through n a through the NHS. And it's incredibly sad. Incredibly sad. And coupled with that, the empowering the

Joanne Lockwood: anti trans rhetoric through this as well. So it's not it's not just the action of blocking. It's also the enabling of the rhetoric and green lighting it in the mainstream media, in GPs, in teachers, in people in authority. It's the whole of society is now being green lighted that the trans people are bad. Being trans is bad. Yeah. Being trans is bad. A

Susie Green: cisgender outcome is a preferred outcome. And that's what comes through so plainly from within that, you know, the CAS review and the other rhetoric that's out there is, you know, let let's try push for a cisgender outcome. Let's try and push you in a direction that means that you're not trans. And that's conversion therapy. That's conversion practices. It's and that's what the these new centers are doing as well. And we've heard reports from families about the kind of discussions that their kids are being subjected to, which shows that what's being practiced on them is is conversion practices. They're trying they're basically trying to persuade, people that they should be comfortable with their with their sex assigned at birth and that, you know, to be trans is a poor outcome. And and it's and it's just, honest I it just makes me I am I feel like I'm in a constant state of rage at the moment. And I have to give my head a shake every now and again and sit back and go, right. Okay. You're doing everything that you can. You're working alongside people who really believe in this. You know? You're doing what you can, when you can, and you're not giving up. So that's all I can do. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It it it is. And I

Joanne Lockwood: get frustrated that people want everyone to be normal. And whether that's anti people, gay people, bi people, or anyone who doesn't fit this kind of biblical version of of of who you should be. Even even the bible allegedly is 2000 years old, way before today's society was ever even conceived. So how we can reference things back to this these traditional values that were never really in existence anyway. They're just people with power and privilege trying to control the masses through, through rules. Yep. Yep.

Susie Green: And and again, it it's about, you know, look over there. Don't look at what I'm doing. Look over there. I blame that person over there. Don't blame me with my stack of cash who's basically pushing society in a in a direction that's really harmful for the majority of its citizens. Look over there and and pick on that that person there rather than actually paying attention to what I'm doing. I've got a a fair few friends around the world, and,

Joanne Lockwood: I haven't managed to confer any of them to being trans. You're

Susie Green: obviously not working hard enough. Yeah. I mean, I've I've been told that, you know, I trans ed my daughter because I didn't want a gay son. And, my gay son finds that a little bit odd, but, you know. I'm a huge fan of a of a protest singer called Grace

Joanne Lockwood: Petrie. I was at one of her, I think it was a comedy show, and she stood up in the beginning and said, she's really, really frustrated. Why hasn't the trans for grade come and come for her? Because she's a butch lesbian. She's out and proud butch lesbian. She she's got, I'm an ideal candidate to being converted to be trans. So why isn't anyone trying? Why isn't everyone trying to convert to be trans? Where are you? I love her

Susie Green: stuff. I love her stuff. She's amazing. And, yeah, again, you know, yeah, I'm I'm I've trans my kid. We're transing kids. We're you know, I mean, what? You know, I couldn't I couldn't make my kid eat a piece, never mind make her be trans. I mean, and my and my gay son is like, well, you clearly didn't try hard enough with me, mom. So, you know, you you know, didn't do the job right with me. If if I did, then I'd have 2 trans kids, not just 1. Bizarre. I think that's bizarre. Yeah. The other thing that frustrates me is that,

Joanne Lockwood: if I came out as neurodiverse, on the spectrum, ASD, whatever it may be, it'd be, oh, you're neurodiverse. It's fine. But I I do I kind of self declare myself as as having a neurodiversity, which is my gender. It's just my brain thinks differently. But it's the wrong type of neurodiversity. It's not not not trendy enough for for for the for the, for society. But, yeah, it it's people are making judgments based on lack of knowledge Yep. Manipulation And it's not and it's

Susie Green: not involved in their lives, so I don't know whether or not it's a distraction from their day to day that they can pick on, you know, somebody else. Or it's I mean, somebody said to me that it's not. It's just some people find trans people icky, so they don't like it. So therefore, their reaction to it, because they don't understand it and it doesn't affect anybody that they love, their response to it is is to to push in the opposite direction. And that's a really good way of

Joanne Lockwood: describing it icky. And unfortunately or fortunately, that's kind of the definition of transphobia, isn't it? It's a fear or this ickiness, a dislike, a distaste for based on a bias. And that's that's exactly what it is. And yeah. And I've I've I've I've got people in my life that maybe not use the word icky. They've just described me as as as not having enough feminine energy for them. And, yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Whatever. I mean Whatever that is. I mean, oh, wait. What

Susie Green: what is that? What is that? I mean, they could say the same about, you know, a large percentage of the cisgender woman population. They might look at me and go, you're not feminine. You haven't got the feminine traits. Blah blah. What a load of absolute bullshit. It's bullshit. Bollocks. Yeah. We can use

Joanne Lockwood: those words. Don't worry. Oh, that's okay then. I'm very sweary normally. I've been really

Susie Green: polite. That's okay. Someone normally gets the f word in early, but,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah, we we've done alright today. I think that but it's not it's not a problem sometimes is if you look at the media representation, when you're trying to talk about trans people having an opinion, it's become activists, lobby groups, testers, and all the imagery is around young trans people with banners, flags, t shirts, burning effigies, all this kind of stuff. You talk to people who have a a less than trans positive view. View. They're in suits, ties called professor or doctor or something. So we're trying to paint trans people as anarchists and the people who want to put reason back in society as being the logical, thoughtful, professional side. And that doesn't help. You know, the the mainstream media are pumping this asymmetry at us all the time as well. All the time. I mean, the number of anti trans articles,

Susie Green: bearing in mind the size of the public there's more articles that are painting trans people as, you know, we we've talked about this already a little bit, as as dangerous, as predatory, as a as liars, essentially. That there's more of them than there are actually trans people in society. Over the last few years, there are more individual articles that have been published throughout the mainstream media than there are actual trans people, which is unbelievable. It's crazy, isn't it? It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. 2 each. 2 articles each. It is. And I don't know how many have been written about me. I'd but yeah. I think, yeah, there's, and, obviously, you've been in a similar position with with being somebody who's openly out as a trans person. It just me as a very visible ally and transadjacent is how I con myself. Yeah. It's it's yeah. It's insane the amount of attention we get literally just wanting to to support people and to be able to get on and live their lives. That's all we wanna do is

Joanne Lockwood: get on with our lives. Thank you, Susie. That's it. Absolutely. Fantastic. How could people get hold of you? Tell us a bit more about, the website. Anything else? Details? Yeah. So all

Susie Green: of, I mean, it's really simple. It's like just www.ann.health. And if you go onto our website, it's got the number for the helpline, and it's got the web chat link so you can click on that and you can, you know, you can make contact with a real live person, 9 to 5, Monday to Friday. You can email at hello at https://anne.health. And we've got, you know, a team of amazing people who are either all trans or transadjacent, on the team who really care about the lives of the people that we're supporting. So if you wanna get in touch with us, please do, and you will be contacted back by a human being.

Joanne Lockwood: So if you're listening to this, it's https://anne.health. Yes. It's not that dot health is one of these newfangled domain names. It's not dotco dot health dotco.uk. It's just ann No. anne dot health. Health. That's it. Enter. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Susie, it's been an absolute pleasure, and thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Susie Green: It's been lovely to speak to you. And at the same time as, like, vaguely depressing talking about all this stuff is also nice to know that there's like minded people out there who are fighting for the right things. Yes. We are. Well,

Joanne Lockwood: lots of transadjacent, lots of trans allies, lots of people out there with lots of love, lots of support in their art. And as I keep saying to people, we just gotta hold the rope. Hold the rope. Don't need to pull anybody over. Don't need to win. Just hold the rope, and the world will keep turning, and things will get better. Yeah. Yep. I

Susie Green: agree. And just need to need to keep hoping and supporting each other. And if you see somebody, you know, who's struggling, please reach out. And sorry. It's Susie

Joanne Lockwood: from Anne. Thank you. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.