--- title: "Fearless Connections, Bold Journeys" episode: 153 date: 2025-03-27 guest: "Anna VanAgtmael" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/153-fearless-connections-bold-journeys audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-153/audio.mp3 --- # Fearless Connections, Bold Journeys Joanne Lockwood is joined by Anna VanAgtmael, founder of Wandering Roots, to explore what it looks like to step off the career conveyor belt and build a life around purpose, connection, and managed risk. Anna shares how building a laboratory from the ground up gave her early entrepreneurial confidence, but it was an unexpected neck surgery and months of enforced pause that crystallised a deeper truth: outward success didn’t equal fulfilment. From yoga teacher training and a powerful experience of supportive community, she began experimenting with retreats—starting locally, then expanding internationally. Together they unpack what makes retreats meaningful beyond the buzzwords: creating space away from daily responsibilities, building trust with strangers, and encouraging small, supported steps outside comfort zones. The conversation also moves into the practical realities of entrepreneurship—risk management, learning through trial and error, scaling in a way that suits your life, and using contractors and tools to stay sustainable. The episode leaves listeners with an invitation to try what keeps calling them—without needing a perfect plan—and to build confidence through action, connection, and deliberate pauses that help clarify what matters next. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Inclusion Bites: Conversations for Change - 04:54 — Yoga and Travel Retreat Journey - 09:45 — Entrepreneurship and Leadership Challenges - 13:25 — Entrepreneurial Pivot During COVID - 15:11 — Creating Purposeful Digital Courses - 17:12 — Diverse Experience Retreats Planned - 22:44 — Morning Routine: Work from Bed - 24:36 — Wife Joins Entrepreneurial Venture - 27:09 — Intentional Business Growth Limitation - 32:21 — Embrace Change and Uncertainty - 35:06 — Challenges in Couple Retreat Connections - 38:01 — Navigating Travel Amid Regulatory Changes - 41:05 — Local Driver Experience Insights - 43:20 — Caught in Costa Rica Storm - 49:42 — Iceland's Sagas and Hot Springs - 50:18 — Unwitting Hot Tub Incident - 53:24 — Join Joanne for Inclusivity ## Key takeaways - The process of transitioning from a conventional career to an entrepreneurial adventure-based business model. - The psychological and practical considerations in managing fear and risk when making life changes. - How transformative retreats function as a catalyst for personal growth and self-awareness. - The significance of creating a supportive and inclusive environment for women to explore and grow. - The role of community and support networks in fostering resilience and connectedness. - Practical advice for aspiring entrepreneurs on balancing financial realities with their passion projects. - The unexpected lessons and challenges faced when facilitating growth and change for others. ## FAQs ### Who is the host of the Inclusion Bites Podcast? Joanne Lockwood is the host of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. She engages in transformative conversations about inclusion, belonging, and societal change. ### Who was the guest on Episode 153, and what is her background? The guest on Episode 153 was Anna VanAgtmael, the founder of Wandering Roots. She organises transformative adventure retreats worldwide and empowers women to design lives filled with authenticity, connection, and purpose. ### What inspired Anna VanAgtmael to leave her successful career in laboratory medicine and pursue adventure retreats? Anna was inspired to leave her career after building a lab from scratch and experiencing neck surgery that required a long recovery. This period allowed her to pause and realise her unhappiness with her current life, sparking the desire to live authentically and follow her passions. ### What does Anna consider her superpower? Anna considers her superpower to be increasing risks to inspire fierce living and authentic connections. ### How does Anna balance the entrepreneurial risks involved in organising retreats? Anna manages risks by side hustling her business, saving money, and carefully planning her ventures. She also helps other entrepreneurs plan their retreats, which mitigates some financial risks for her. ### What advice does Anna give about stepping out of one's comfort zone? Anna encourages people to try activities that terrify them, step outside of their comfort zones, and embrace vulnerability within a supportive group setting. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 153 with the title, fearless connections, bold journeys. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Anna Van Atmel. Anna is the founder of Wandering Roots, hosting transformative adventure retreats worldwide and empowering women to design lives filled with authenticity, connection, and purpose. When I asked Anna to describe her superpower, she said that it is increasing risks to inspire fierce living and authentic connections. Hello, Anna. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. So where whereabouts in the world are you? Did you say Michigan? Yes. I'm in Michigan in Anna VanAgtmael: the US. It's very cold here. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I was talking to someone from Atlanta the other day, and they said it was almost snowing in Atlanta at this time. Yeah. I haven't heard It's kind of been Anna VanAgtmael: a weird year for everybody even where it's not supposed to be cold. So Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Weird. Yeah. It was very wet. Very wet and a lot of storms over there. So yeah. Yeah. The UK is not a not a happy place either. Anna VanAgtmael: No. But, you know, everybody, I've actually hosted a few retreats in the UK, Scotland, and then also Ireland, and we're going to Iceland too this year. But I'm like, it's just weather. We're so used to it. It makes all of us pretty resilient. So I'm I'm happy to to dwell here. As Joanne Lockwood: the saying goes, it's not the wrong weather. It's just the wrong clothing. Anna VanAgtmael: Yes. No. I always say that. I always say there's no bad weather, just bad gear. Yeah. Exactly. Really well. I agree. Yeah. You can be wrapped up and snuggly in a huge coat, and, Joanne Lockwood: you can be minus 10 outside. Yeah. So, Anna, what inspired you to leave? Yeah. You had a successful career. What inspired you to leave that and pursue this life of adventure where you create spaces for women? Yeah. Anna VanAgtmael: For the most part, it was a long journey. It was a couple years. I will give you the highlights, the cliff notes, if you will. But I, I got the opportunity in my old career in laboratory medicine to start a build a lab. I was the first employee and there were the owners and that was it. I I built the lab, bought the equipment, hired the staff, and it sort of planted the seed of being an entrepreneur with no financial risk, which is usually a hang up for most of us. And, it just made me think a little differently, but also I had to have neck surgery around the same time. So I was in a neck brace for 4 months, and I couldn't do anything. Couldn't drive, had had to take a pause on work. It was the first time I probably paused ever in my life. I was 28. And, I had so much time to sit with my thoughts, and I was wildly unhappy. I had realized that I had achieved more financial and sort of career, like, climbing the ladder success than I ever thought possible, but I still wasn't jazzed about it. And I I just wanted I had this very wake up moment of I get one life. I've just felt my mortality for the first time. You know, in your twenties, you think you're gonna like, that's just something that happens to old people. And, I was like, I don't wanna screw this up. I wanna squeeze every drop out of it. I wanna be jazzed about it, and, this is not it. And, that's pretty terrifying. And there was a lot of shame around that of not being great more grateful for what I had. I had attained a lifestyle that I really enjoyed and didn't really want to start over and let go of. So, yeah, I. I took yoga teacher training to sort of help heal my chronic neck pain and not become a pain management patient. And, took yoga teacher training and I had been traveling quite a bit and I thought I had this experience in training that I was with 11 strangers, 11 women that were supporting each other. And we were sharing very vulnerable parts of ourselves, and everybody is loving and accepting each other for who they were and not who they were trying to be. And I thought I could create that type of environment, and combine up my love of travel and host a retreat. And I tried one in 2018, like, in Northern Michigan, a few hours away from where I live. And I did a long weekend, and then I did another one, and then I did another one, and then I started hosting international for 7 days, and it just kinda took off from there. Wow. I'm loving it. I I Joanne Lockwood: mean, I your kind of story there really resonates. You know, you get to that point in your life where you think I could just carry on as I am, walk into the distance with no control over my life, just doing what everyone expects on this conveyor belt, off you go. Sometimes you just have to hit the stop button, don't you? And just say, hang on. I wanna get off for a minute and get figure out what I'm doing now. Yeah. Anna VanAgtmael: I had, like, right around the I also, at the same time of having that epiphany of, like, you only get a one chance. You only get one life. I was like, I have created all of this. And so if I'm passionate about my work, I'm sure I could have even more success. And also like, I never once thought about what I wanted. I was literally just being a practical human being, getting good grades, going to college, getting a job in healthcare, because there would be, you know, job security for the rest of my life. I never ever thought about, like, what I was passionate about or what inspired me or interested me. I guess you you must have been surrounded by Joanne Lockwood: people who were inspired, but also cautious about what you were doing. Sort of it's not not to say holding you back, but they, you sure? Are you sure about this? Yeah. It was Anna VanAgtmael: very, very practical. A lot of just practical human beings, which I kind of consider to be a little bit of sleep, just kinda comfortable and not really, like, living living. And right around the time I went to yoga teacher training, I sort of just tripped into this network of entrepreneurs at the same time. It was like those worlds of me sort of waking up and then being surrounded by other people that were thinking differently than the other people that I've been spending time with or even how I felt like had been thinking. So that was definitely the culmination. You know, they always say you're the, what is it? The 5 people you spend the most time with are usually a reflection of who you are as well. So Yes. That's very true. I I was looking through the, the Joanne Lockwood: show notes you you sent through earlier and, your kind of mantra around the fear of doing things holds you back. But it's it's it's how you break through that fear. And not to say being risk adverse, but being risk managed and and knowing that the fear is just it's just fake. It is. Anna VanAgtmael: People do, assume I'm fearless and I'm not. Everybody has some fear. It's a fear, but, I have a bigger fear of getting to the end and, having regrets that I didn't try something than taking a risk. And my husband is very risk averse. And I'm just not. I side hustled the business, Wandering Roots, for 2 years before I jumped in full time, tried to build an audience from scratch and knew that was gonna take a while, shoved money away into a savings account to try to make that leap a little, I guess, managed, risk managed. And, yeah, there's ways there are multiple ways to skin a cap. And, that's what works for me. I guess that's the roots of of being Joanne Lockwood: an entrepreneur though, isn't it? It's it's risk management and just going for it. All the time. I mean, how many Anna VanAgtmael: how many times do you try something new as an entrepreneur? You're trying to figure out you're wearing all these hats. You're trying to figure out all these things. And Joanne Lockwood: Oh, don't you know what a molecular diagnostic is? You know, is it it sounds kind of really kind of big brain stuff. Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I, we used to like, if you go to the doctor and you have your blood drawn, there's routine labs that just get that ran at a general hospital. And then anything specialized that gets sent out, that's what molecular diagnostics is. It's cancer screening. Prenatal diagnostics is a really big one, and that's what the last 7 years I spent time in. There's things for anything, though. Just just better testing, better diagnostics. It was I am a person that gets bored easily. I like to be challenged, and it fed my soul in that capacity for quite a while. And then having to start from scratch and manage people also was a challenge that I wasn't familiar with. So I'm grateful for it. It I always say that, you know, being an entrepreneur, the more, like, experience you have in a previous life is just going to serve you in this capacity because there are so many I I was really, really into data and publishing journal articles and things, and that really helps me serve my clients today when I plan their retreats because I am a numbers nerd. I love spreadsheets. Nobody that has ever hosted a retreat, myself included, is doing it for the profit, but it's the only way to sustain your business instead of operating an extensive hobby. To be able to share the work and the content you're passionate about and be able to energetically be able to do another one is really, really helpful, and a lot of people get bogged down by it. And that's just a thing that I had been fine tuning as a executive for a long time, 13 years. So it's kinda second nature. Well, like you said, that profit isn't Joanne Lockwood: a dirty word. And if you wanna create a sustainable business with legs that is there to serve the needs people you you help, You have to have to earn money. You have to pay their mortgage and the rent and they, put food on the table. Yeah. You gotta make enough Anna VanAgtmael: money to pay for your venue and your support staff and then pay yourself. So you're part of the team. Yeah. We're not we're not all Bill Gates Joanne Lockwood: philanthropists with billionaires that we can just expand for the fun of it. Exactly. I what you're saying resonates completely because I I spent most of my life in IT computing. Amazing. Yeah. So I I left well, actually, I was electronics engineer when I was at school, and then moved over to IT, and then spent 20 odd years, 25 years in in IT. Any small business looking after small companies, venture networks and servers and phone systems, that kind of stuff. And then I got, I found my get off the conveyor belt moment about 10 years ago and, jacked it all in and, created a new career out of nothing. That was quite risky. And, there's no certainty in that, is there? No. There's no certainty. I do Anna VanAgtmael: I do think there's a lot of excitement in it, though. If you don't get bogged down by all the fear, it's like not a lot of people go after their dreams and just go for it. And it's the highest highs and the lowest lows. It's a mixed bag. But if you get too caught up into the lows, you never get to enjoy the highs. Wouldn't I would it was hard. And it still is, but I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. Yeah. I also look back at my my Joanne Lockwood: career, if you want, or life in the past that you do pick up a lot of these ice skills. So I'm I'm very I was very familiar with consulting, engaging with customers, solution selling, sales, marketing, business development, because it was my business, the IT company. You gotta get used to all this stuff, organizing your own travel. So when you start another business, you you've got all of these skills ready at hand, haven't you? Yeah. Totally. I'm even thinking IT Anna VanAgtmael: for podcasting. Like, all of the equipment and things is probably so much easier for someone like you. Yeah. I mean, COVID was Joanne Lockwood: certainly easier. Yeah. Because one of my hobbies was photography and videography and editing videos and things like this. And suddenly we we need cameras. Suddenly we need lightings, which are all the key elements to photography and videography is lighting and cameras and, and sound. You were like, I've been training Anna VanAgtmael: for a long time for this, guys. I got you. And in the first couple Joanne Lockwood: of months of COVID, I was, providing a kind of a an ad hoc service to people who were trying to get online and get going and restart their businesses. So I was doing training for people on how to set their cameras up, how to get their their on screen presence looking good. And so that that gave me a bit of a purpose for 2 or 3 months until the market suddenly picked up again, like I start doing other stuff. But, yeah, it it gave me a a purpose when, otherwise, I'd be sat in bed going, doom is woe is me. So Yeah. Finding a bringing all that expertise into the fore, It's just another entrepreneurial trait. Isn't it saying, well, I I can see a gap here. There's a bit of a market. Wasn't making a fortune. I was helping people. Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I think that's, the entrepreneur mind. Right? It's always filling a need. Like, you were solving a problem. Was giving you purpose, and I think that there's a collision between, like, what lights you up and also solving a problem for the client. So So Joanne Lockwood: you you now enjoy not only the organization and in the logistics of getting people onto the retreat, you get the bonus of going on the retreat and enjoying what you're creating as well. Yeah. I, so I first just started just Anna VanAgtmael: hosting retreats. And a lot of other entrepreneurs asked me, like, in the early years, would you ever plan it for other people? And so I said, no. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm still figuring out. And then COVID happened, and I quit my lab job in October 2019 only to have to cancel the majority of my events and my retreats for 2020. And I thought it was gonna be the 1st year, you know, both feet in, all this excitement, and it just really didn't work out that way. But I was like, okay. I don't wanna go back. This is a test from the universe and I I'm I'm like firm and that I don't want to do that anymore. And so I will take this time and create a service for the people that were requesting it, sort of giving me a purpose, like you said, filling a need and, treated a digital course at the same time, because what else do you do except record things at your house, you know, to put something out there. So I actually, in the last year, last year and this year too, is where I spend most of my time is helping other entrepreneurs plan and host their own. And then I still host 2 to 3 international ones of my own a year, but that's I used to do 6 a year, so that's scaled back significantly. Joanne Lockwood: So the way helping others organize their events is less risky than having to finance your own events, I guess. Of course, Christy. You are Anna VanAgtmael: absolutely correct because I'm not putting out the capsule. They are. It's also it's my favorite. It's like being able to share all the mistakes I've made and hold their hand and tell them it's all gonna work out great. And people are so, so passionate about sharing whatever they want to share that it's really it feels like it wouldn't have happened without us working together. It feels like we find we got to bring it to the world together and hearing their story is just so much fun. It's like we really get to know each other, and it's just a lot of women supporting women and business owners supporting business owners. It's a lot of flexibility because I don't have to be there. I, you know, I can work on it, when I have time. I've never done a Joanne Lockwood: retreat. I no. I I I've got a reason or excuse all why. I just I just never have. Never been in the right time, the right place. I've seen them advertised. I've seen people talking about them and look after Bali for a week or fortnight or 2 weeks. Yeah. Whatever it may be. And I think, oh, yeah. So what does a typical retreat look and feel like? So good question. First of all, there are thousands of them, and Anna VanAgtmael: they're all very different. And I've helped them, like, just so many different types of humans plan theirs, like food photography, actors. You know, there's people in the wellness sphere of, like, Reiki, massage therapy, Thai massage, woman that runs a nonprofit just for Asian women. There's just, there's just so many ways you can do it. But mine, I want everybody to try something that kind of terrifies them. I want them to like step outside of their comfort zone with a supportive group of people around them and also have that pause like I did where all of your responsibility is taken care of because we have a personal chef. We have somebody there that's taking photos so you can disconnect from your phone all week. And then you literally I always say the itinerary is just the suggestion. Pick and choose the things in the present moment of what you actually wanna participate in and tune into what you actually want day to day, but also what you want out of life and, see if we can maybe take something from that experience and incorporate it into your your daily life. Yeah. I love that. I I heard someone describe another Joanne Lockwood: organization I was doing some work with as, I use the f word. Fucking out with friends is what they described it as. So you you go out to these places That's my favorite word. Fucking around with friends and stealing it. Yeah. So you're basically you just know you got a supportive environment. There's no silly questions. There's no silly mistakes. Everyone's there to pick you up, which is the opposite of social media. Because everyone on social media wants to put you down. This is picking you up and Ours is turning into a little Anna VanAgtmael: bit of, like, adult summer camp almost where people meet, become friends, and then they, like, get together to, like, book the same one for the following year so they can reunite. And, you know, when you're in summer camp, you're always like, what week are you coming back next year? And you try to, like, you know, line it up with your besties. But, yeah, it's so much fun. It's really, really rewarding to be able to see these people every single year and sometimes more than once a year. And watching strangers become friends is fun too. It's really Joanne Lockwood: That's beautiful. Yeah. So I can imagine you there. The the coach arrives from the airport. There you are with the clipboard ticking people off. Yep. Shelly, number 1. Shelly, number 2. Yeah. I'm the Anna VanAgtmael: only one that knows what room they're in because I do all the logistics, but there's always a, like, just a chaotic massive bags and hugs and things. And then we usually have our first meal together and do intros. We go around the table, and everybody does a quick intro. And then I make everybody go around the table and say 3 things they love about themselves because I think we can get bogged down with the the roles and responsibilities and all the hats we wear. And, you kinda get the essence of who they are as a being when they just say the three things they love about themselves. So it's nice. Yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: would I would just say if they come multiple years, whether they say the same as three things, that'd be interesting to track that. Yeah. You know, we can sometimes Anna VanAgtmael: see people get a little more confident and say, like, bigger things, you know, because sometimes it's hard for people to to find through things, which is kinda hard and sad. But for some people that have no problem with 3 and they could do another 3 the following year, they could do 6 right away. You know? So, I was just my mind was just wondering there thinking, what Joanne Lockwood: have what have you done this year? Kicked my husband out, got a new life, and living my best life now. So that's all the empowerment you've given people. Yeah. Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. One lady quit her job before she went home. 1 year. Goes to Rica. Oh, it's just Well, I I guess that's what you're Joanne Lockwood: trying to you're trying to give people that empowerment. You wake people up. Some Anna VanAgtmael: people wake up more than others. Some people really just need the space to just to just reset. You know? Because you get hung up on Joanne Lockwood: the grind, don't you? You're just you're doing the same thing day in, day out and so familiar with what you're doing and everything else rushes by. Yeah? Yeah. So you step out of it? Anna VanAgtmael: I think there I think that you can do any of this type of work at home. You can. I just think it's easier to go away sometimes to to not have any distractions. We have multiple women that say they've never felt that taken care of. So sometimes just that reminder that you are worthy of being taken care of is really beautiful. I personally, I work from home, and it takes a lot for your time management. I don't know if you feel the same way, but, like, you can get distracted by the dog or the laundry or just anything stupid and then kinda get into your cycle of routines and forget to pause anyways. You know? So Yeah. I mean, that's my procrastinating Joanne Lockwood: brain. There's something shiny or something, a squirrel or something else sort of under the bus. Oh, look. It's got It's not even there. It's not still Anna VanAgtmael: outside. Oh, shoot. I was supposed to do this proposal or that Joanne Lockwood: proposal or get that done. It it cram all in the last half an hour of the day, and he goes, that was alright. We made it in the end. Yeah. Be less stressful if I just got all within the morning and then didn't get distracted. I feel that. I feel that. I don't think my brain would've worked properly if I forced it. I saw that. Anna VanAgtmael: I I often get days like that. I really appreciate a slow morning and just sort of being eased into the day. I'm more of a night person than a morning, and I feel a little bit sharper after that, like, hour of brain fog kinda like burns off. But so I feel like morning is still a more productive, like, part of my day, but that first hour, forget it. It just feels forced. It feels too forced. Yeah. I'm a, I'm Joanne Lockwood: a work from bed person for the person 2 hours a day. So I I get up about half 6 quarter to 7 most mornings, get my phone out, check LinkedIn, check social medias, maybe write a blog post on my phone or talk to it, do a bit of AI processing. And I get up, have some breakfast. About 10 o'clock, I'll start actually booking meetings and doing stuff. So, yeah, it's kind of my start. And then in the evening, I'll I'll get off my desk here, and I'll I'll sit in the lounge for an hour just on the phone, just checking a few things, social media. So, yeah, I I kind of try and occupy different spaces and do different tasks that, made me happy. There's no point sitting in a chair and feeling uncomfortable if you might as well sit on the sofa and do some of this stuff. You got to do more through you. Anna VanAgtmael: I a 100% agree. I have a friend that gets up and writes for 4 hours every single day, and then she fuck fucks off in the afternoon. She just is, like, never. She just sucks in the afternoon. She can't get anything done. And even if she forced it, it takes her, you know, double the length of time. So she's like, what's the point? So, yeah, she just commits to that. Like, we should just do whatever works for you. I let you just say, I Joanne Lockwood: I I have that attitude to the whole of December. As soon as the as soon as it gets dark in the evenings, as soon as I I detect a bit of holiday mode kicking in, I'm kinda like, I'm just I'm not just on the run run down here for Christmas Eve. I'm just yeah. Just Same. Having a I actually took the last 3 weeks Anna VanAgtmael: of the year off last year, December. It's just it's a wasteland. My husband's seasonal. He's a landscaper. So he's off doing nothing, and I'm like, well, I want to do nothing. You know? So it's just and then, yeah, it feels like it's 10 o'clock at 6 because it's pitch black, and I just I lack the motivation. A couple years ago, my wife actually joined me Joanne Lockwood: in the business. So she gave up her, paid employment by a, yeah, by a company and, and joined me. So because one of the challenges of the app was that I had the flexibility of freedom to work when I want and also work when I don't want to. That's the only trouble with entrepreneurship. You work when you want, but also work when you don't want. Yep. And there was a couple of times where I just said, oh, we should go away this weekend or go away on the Friday or just do it midweek. Of course, she was then restricted by, the paid employment. Yeah. So somehow I just thought, let's make this work. And it's that's not be easy. It's trying to generate all the whole entire household income from from one stream. But, Yeah. We can now if we wanna go away for the weekend, we wanna stop working at 5 o'clock. Just go just go do something. Anna VanAgtmael: So we're in the we're in the same camp. We are both on our own businesses as well. So I feel the the freedom and the flexibility and the joy of it, and then also the pressure of just like nothing to share. But It is. Yeah. It's nice. It's mostly nice. Paying for our insurance is crushing my spirit at the moment, but it's fine. It's just one of the byproducts of of doing it your own way. It's it's definitely a said to be said Joanne Lockwood: where you should not care for you. You're both on different pages and and different speeds. But but but yeah. As you said, you you're both entrepreneurs. You both have your own businesses. You can both make decisions when you want to. Mhmm. When there was a disconnect, it it became frustrating for both of us. Yeah. I I wanna do something, like, and we can't. Marie would look at me and say, oh, so right for you, being a do what you want, I'm gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it it's it's been a huge change to our relationship over the last 3 or 4 years now. It's, immensely more powerful. I think that adds to the entrepreneurial journey because Vidi does become your lifestyle, not just your business. Anna VanAgtmael: Totally. And I think we've both, like, grown at sort of the same rate, but at different times because there's so many limiting beliefs you have to overcome too as an entrepreneur and things like that. So I sort of think that there would have been a disconnect of, like, one of us sort of being stuck in this older, like, kinda timeframe and then the other one moving forward. And so it's been a lot. It's been incredible, honestly. So yeah. Are are you building a brand, or are you just building Joanne Lockwood: a a a single person business type thing? Are you are you just trying to build it to sell, or are you just building it to live? So Anna VanAgtmael: we are just building it to live both of them. He potentially he's never wanted to get too big where he couldn't be there and work on his own jobs. Like, they're his designs, and he wants to see them through to the end. And there's also, like, so much equipment involved in running each crew, and we don't really want to to have that much overhead and equipment. So he very much got to a point he's in his 8th year and I'm in my 7th. And he, just was like, this is it. I will only take on this many jobs per year and that's it. I don't want to grow. I, and then he potentially would sell to his, employee that he's had for the majority of the time. Something for a later discussion when we're in our our early forties. But, I have 2 best friends that I've hosted every single we've hosted 22 times together. One's the chef, one's the photographer. And, if either one of them wanted to carry it on whenever I decide I'd no longer want to do it, they would be able to do it. Otherwise, I would just close it. It's it's my brand. It's my baby. Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, my IT companies, I had Joanne Lockwood: 30 odd staff, £3,000,000, u UK pound turnover, stress, wage bills, and taxes, all this kind of stuff on premises. And I when I started doing this freelancing and I started I took on a social media person. I took on a a graphic designer to do some of the assets. Suddenly, I thought, you know what I mean? I'm taking on over. I don't want people. I don't wanna be responsible for people anymore. Yeah. I don't either. It and yeah. I had a I didn't have as big of a I Anna VanAgtmael: only had 10 people probably towards the end that reported to me. It was fine. I just it's not something I wanna do all this. No. I like hiring contractors, like you said. I really love, like, hiring a professional that I know can do a better job than what I could. And I would also, like, waste so much time on getting a result that I wasn't just about and then just letting them go, like, offloading it from my plate, just hiring somebody I trust and love and, yeah, contractors like that. That's that's usually what I do. I suppose I'm Joanne Lockwood: taking advantage of AI tools now. I treat them as my assistant. So you got writing assistants and copywriters and letter writers and marketing copy. And even you can generate a good enough graphic with a bit of bit of prompting and stuff. So, yeah, I I feel I've got a team around me. They're just they're just not real. They're just AI. Yeah. Anna VanAgtmael: No. I agree. Especially in the last, like, couple years, it's really Yeah. Made it easier. Getting better. You know, the tools that come out all Joanne Lockwood: the time now is whatever chat GPT and OpenAI are looking at these agents and things, you can Yeah. Start handling all your inquiries. I've got some other automation stuff I work on with another platform. You just drop somebody in it. I'd like this podcast I've sung. I was gonna drop it into a workflow, and it spit out all the stuff I need at the end of it without any real interaction. So Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I've got friends to help. It's just digital friends. Yeah. So what was the biggest lesson you've learned stepping out into the wind, into the cold, into the entrepreneurial life? What did what did you look back on as I did know that? I think that I think that if you're Anna VanAgtmael: making if you're not making the same mistakes, you're doing it right. I think there's so much trial and error. And you learn the most when you when it doesn't work out the way you wanted. You can either pivot like, ugh, I don't wanna do this at all. It didn't work out at all. Or you just have more information to move forward and tweak things. Life is all about learning and moving forward. And I think that a lot of people get so in their head and that they don't even try. And the the difference between the people that do and don't is just they tried and they kept going. That's it. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Yeah. It's you have to let's use the f word again. You have to fuck up quickly and move on quickly. And know what works, know what doesn't work. And, yeah, I think I've made so many mistakes over the last couple of years, but also so many recoveries as well. Yeah. And that gives you more Anna VanAgtmael: confidence. It builds resiliency and confidence just moving on from that. I I really agree with you of moving on quickly. You can't just dwell on your own shit. Like, it just learn the lesson and move on. Yeah. I think you're Joanne Lockwood: allowed to cry for a bit and get upset with yourself and shout at the mirror and go, maybe not sit for a couple of nights. And then it it just go, yeah, done that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Don't let it take you Anna VanAgtmael: down for too long. I agree. Yeah. Just move on quickly. Joanne Lockwood: So it's the people you work with, so the the women that come to your retreats or the retreats of the people you work with, they're looking for authenticity, empowerment. What's that look like really? Yeah. Because people listen to this podcast. We're trying to get into the heads of the people listening. So if you're listening to this, we're talk we're talking to you right now. So what's the what's the retreat really gonna do other than the buzzwords? Yeah. I think that Anna VanAgtmael: anytime you are just feeling called and, like, hold and something just keeps coming up on your radar, you're meant to do that thing. You're meant to give it a shot. And I would say that everybody that is coming is feeling a little bit in a transitional period of time, a little bit stuck or a little bit like what's my next move? Is this really what I want? They're they're all alike in that of wanting just a little bit more. Sometimes not having any clue what that looks like, so getting stuck and, you know, moving forward. But I will say when I started wandering roots from scratch, there was a period of time where I knew I wanted to make a change, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I just started doing things that interested me and kinda scared the hell out of me. So usually your mind to keep you safe says, no, you can't do that. That's scary. Or, no, how would you ever learn how to do that? And everybody's a beginner for anything one time. That's how you get better at things. You keep doing it over and over. So the more you can just give it a shot and then give your per self permission to just quit it if you don't like it. Life isn't that serious. You don't have to take yourself that seriously. And also don't get caught up in not knowing what you want yet. Just keep trying things. I like Joanne Lockwood: that. Because I used to say when I was starting this business, I was I was wandering around the woods with no compass and no satnav, just figuring out I turn left or turn right. Oh, no. Don't like this. Go back. Try again and go that way. And it's it's the joy of of being lost with purpose, if you like. Yeah. Trying to find the exit. Well, that's Anna VanAgtmael: such a good way to describe it. It's yeah. I feel that to my core. That's exactly what it felt like. No direction, but some purpose. It's just, like, trying to figure it out. I mean, I also like I thought that I would just, like, plan people's retreats and teach yoga at a studio or plan people's vacations. I didn't even think about a retreat initially. I was just, like, putting a few feelers out there, trying things, and then being like, I don't know if I wanna do that. You know? So, yeah, it really, evolved into something I didn't even consider in the beginning. It's a question then. So these Joanne Lockwood: your traits are for women, I. E. Not for men, is an easy way of describing it. How does how do they empower women being in a a female only space with feminine energy, if you like, or that connection? How's that different to differ from mixed environments or the traditional home networks they have? So I did Anna VanAgtmael: do a couple's retreat one time, and we had mixed couples. We had, you know, gay couples, lesbians, but we had we had men for the first time. It just people weren't as open and didn't connect as quickly. I don't know if it was because their partner was there. Sometimes it's actually, I feel like most of my guests would say this. It's usually easier to tell a stranger something like some secret or something vulnerable because they don't know anything about you. They don't have everybody that you spend time with sees you in a certain container and box because that's how they see themselves. And so to not have those, like, boxes or these, like, just these, like, relationships that kinda have these just repeated patterns. It's a lot easier to just be open, be vulnerable, start over, not be bogged down by how you're supposed to show up. That's been my experience. I actually have been, have several clients that host mixture treats and, they love it and they have, and they do like large groups. I don't love a large group. I don't really like the sound of it. I don't know. I'm very sensitive to like, some minor usually 10 to 12, but, like, again, you could can do anything in a retreat. It's just a container for whatever you wanna share. So the key Joanne Lockwood: element, I think what you're saying there is it's in order to to let go of these beliefs, let go of what you're trying to let go of or or find something you're you're you're exploring, you've almost gotta do it metaphorically naked without any baggage, without anything with you. You you turn out. So it could be mixed, but as long as you're not mixed with anybody you know, so you turn out with a group of strangers of it. 100%. I think the Anna VanAgtmael: one my girlfriends that host the ones that are mixed, it's just a large group of just mostly single people or people that traveled solo. A lot of people and this was a lot in the beginning. We got a lot of people that only wanted to come with a friend, and it's like, you meet more people too. If you don't come with a friend, because that you don't have the security blanket that you're like attached to, you gotta put yourself out there more, which means you'll also try other things, not just getting to know strangers, but you'll try other things. So I think coming by yourself is the best way to go. Yeah. And if you have social anxiety, Joanne Lockwood: you're you're introvert. You're not good at making friends. You're right. But there's bound to be somebody else in the group who is exactly the same. Yes. And then you'll pair up of 2 people who are okay. I'm a different person. I don't wanna talk to anyone either. We'll we'll be friends and talk to each other and Yep. S, you connect, don't you? You'll connect over that. You'll Anna VanAgtmael: connect over your social anxiety. We have that happen all the time. Totally. Joanne Lockwood: Did you see a rise as a result of COVID of of more social anxiety? People having this you go from FOMO to to CBA. You can't be asked to go back out again. You know, Yuri? Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I will say that, in the beginning, people were just a little bit nervous, especially to travel international. And, honestly, in the very beginning, it was, like, really hard to keep track of, do I have to have a negative test to come home? And and, like, those regulations kept changing. I, actually, because of my lab background, found these telehealth tests that were accepted by PSA. And so we were able to as long as we had Wi Fi tests at our venue, we didn't have to, like, ship everybody to, like, a health center or anything like that. So and then I really managed travel insurance and other things like that just in case, like, you know, worst came to worst. That never happened. Thankfully, nobody tested positive. But after all of that, after maybe, like, 6 months of sort of that being the reality, it almost helped us. People were so, like, starved for human connection and, travel travel pushes you anyways. I think it really expands your mind and just your flexibility and how seriously you take yourself. And, I think people are really missing that. They were missing being able to experience new things and being able to go on an adventure. Yeah. I can always say, in my thirties and forties, Joanne Lockwood: I I traveled extensively once. I used to work for a bank, and they had global offices. And I spent a lot of time in LA and San Diego, Miami, New York, and, of course, the Far East, Hong Kong. But I saw this all all these glamorous locations around the world with a small team of IT implement implementation teams. So we were working hard, playing hard. We finished work at 5, and we pass until 5. Then we never know our sleeves, and we get back. We do this. And, you know, we were we were in Singapore and Hong Kong for, I think, between them about 4 weeks between them. I got home, and I was just like, oh, I've done it. I've I've I've I've maxed out the the the country. I've done it well. Maxed out the clubs anyway. So I think you do need to go and explore a bit of the world. It's what it's certainly given me a a different outlook. It's a good one. Another experience I have was I was a member of a club, and it adds, a network of clubs all around the world again. And we were doing home hosting. We were just racking up in Iceland and staying in someone's house for a week, in their hot tub or in their jacuzzi and sauna in the back garden. In Finland, we're all walking around in the snow drinking vodka and going into the sauna. And you just live live the life of a local for a week or so. Yes. And the experience you just can't buy. Yeah. It's it's like Airbnb where the where the guest stays with you. So they stay with the host. Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. I a 100% agree with that. It's fascinating to see how other parts of the world live. It's so different, and it's awesome. Not the Joanne Lockwood: hotel version or the the backpacker versions. It's kind of like the everyday. They go off to work, you go and do something, and they give you they lend you their car, and you just go and do something. It's like Yeah. Yes. People are incredibly generous when you get to them. There's that trust built. Anna VanAgtmael: And they're usually we always hire a driver or a guy that's local so that they can give you sort of the history or fun facts and sort of take you off the beaten path. But it's more people wanna talk to them about, like, their family and, you know, where they grew up and what school's like there. And, yeah, those types of questions, like the day to day, how different it is. And, that's always we keep in touch with almost all of our drivers because we get so much time with them, and they're usually just so much fun. So, yeah, it's fun. Yeah. I'm just in in that moment, you're talking Joanne Lockwood: about drives are so much fun. We were out in, I think it was Amsterdam in the Netherlands, and we got an Uber. And what and we're going I don't know. We're going for half an hour or something at least half an hour on Uber. And one of the friends I was said, excuse me, driver. Can can I can I pair my phone with your stereo? And then we can play our own music in the car. Yeah. Sure. Here's the pairing code. So suddenly we've got this playlist in the back of the car. We'll see, oh, the fact that it's over. I think we probably drank too much. That helped. But, yeah, it was, for those moments where we now have Uber karaoke works. So Uber will let us put on the, connect to this, their their HiFi system. Well, I love a good travel story. Anna VanAgtmael: A lot of Yeah. You know? The memories. Right? The experience. Yeah. They're so enriching. Joanne Lockwood: I think I think in a way that helps the entrepreneurial mindset because you you get so used to these random situations that are outside your comfort zone that mostly turn out well. Yeah. Or with a with a really crazy story that you you kinda tap can't tell anybody, but you're not dead. Yep. You know? Survived it. Yeah. I think too Anna VanAgtmael: when we're in a group, it's it's sort of that, like, they had to be there for it to be funny, and that sort of connects as well. You all have that funny story together. And so, yeah, the human connection. What goes on tour stays on tour sort Joanne Lockwood: of mentality. It's it's it's like was it that film, The Hangover? You know, you you have to be there to experience it. Yeah. So without giving anything too drastic away, what are the what's the biggest fuck up you've ever had that that that turned out okay in the end? Yeah. So I actually this did not Anna VanAgtmael: happen on a retreat, thankfully, but we got stuck in a tropical storm like a like, they got 11 inches of rain in Costa Rica. It was, like, the worst rain storm they had had in, like, 13 years or something. And, we were supposed to move just, like, 20 minutes location wise. A lot of times me and my 2 girlfriends will go scout a location before, and we it started raining and, like, it always does. So you just wait an hour or 2 and then you go. And we were up in the mountains and we just had to drive down to the beach basically, and it just never stopped. And it was like rain from, like, like, where it looks like a wall. It just was raining so hard. But we're like, well, we gotta we gotta go. We have a we have 4 wheel drive. We'll give it our best shot. And we got stuck in a mudslide, and the car started coming back down the hill and it got stuck the back tire on the passenger side, got stuck in a concrete culvert, thankfully. And so we walked back down the hill. I mean, we're just soaking wet and they thankfully had an empty room and we just stayed the night there. And in the morning, the entire road had washed out. So if we hadn't made it up the first hill, we would have just been on our river. We would have never seen it. It was so dark out there. I was like, this I just was like, you know, I think I'm gonna hire a driver from now on, like to navigate just this shit because I also can't navigate and talk. So sometimes it will be in a car for a half an hour, an hour, and I'd rather talk with the guest. Whereas I'm like, you cannot talk to me while I'm driving because I can only I'm just very can't multitask. But that's helped so much, especially with parking. You know, sometimes you just can't find a spot and then it's on them. We just get to get out and they'll figure it out. So, Yeah. They took you off, figure and Joanne Lockwood: park it and pick you up later. I I got it. Yeah. And I also Anna VanAgtmael: had had it was my birthday that day, and I'd also had quite a few drinks. And we're usually, like, have someone designated to drive us, and then the other 2 will fuck off a bit. But I also had the epiphany in the morning of, like, I'm not gonna drink on a retreat ever. I'm responsible for these people's safety, and I really wanted to be sober when the car was just sliding back down the hill. I just was like, none of this is fun for me. So, yeah, those were, I guess, the biggest, most terrifying travel story I have. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I ended up I I gave up drinking 3 years ago. I spent too much of my life with alcohol controlling it. And I think part of my my journey was to say, hang on a minute. I wanna do this raw. Yeah. Real me. Not not not induce or comatose me just to take responsibility for everything I do and say, yeah, it's just got to that point in my life where I thought I've drank too much. Now's the time to start. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've never been one that really has Anna VanAgtmael: strength to excess ever a lot, like, in large periods of time, but I am I'm now 40. And, just having one cocktail just almost ruins me for the next day. Like, I just sleep terribly. And then I'm just lethargic and kinda just don't feel well the next day. And so I, I I rarely have a drink. Oh, another friend of mine that's also a yoga teacher. We always talk about, like, radical sobriety is when you start to, like, truly, like, love yourself and you're okay with all of your thoughts and you're okay with not dimming down any of your joy or, making any of the pain, you know, easier. It's just like being a real human being about all of your experiences and it and experiences in them fully. So, yeah, that's kinda been my journey in the last couple of years. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: The radical surprise. I think the side of that to me that I've I've recognized is that, actually, I don't wanna be here. I wanna go home. I've had enough. You know? It's it's nice, and I don't feel guilty about it. It's I don't feel that. Or someone invites me, and I go, to be honest, I don't want it. It's okay. I don't want it. Really. I don't want it. I appreciate you in life enough. Good for you. I don't I don't wanna come along and watch everybody else get drunk and then there you go. No. This is boring. So Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not that I wanna exclude myself from these occasions. I just think, when you see it sober, you think, what was I ever doing here? I was the one that was at the end of the night, I remember being in, Melbourne, Australia for speaking at a conference. And I was with a a friend of mine, and we were well known for burning whatever oil we could find at whatever time of night. And the bar shut, we found another bar. And then and then we said, oh, look. We want another drink. So we found a gas station that sold beer. We went and bought beer in this gas station. We sat on a brick wall and just drank beer at, like, 4 o'clock in the morning. I I looked at myself and thought, what am I doing? What am I doing? Yeah. I was I think I was in Tallinn in in Estonia, and we managed to find a a fast food joint that did kebabs at 4 o'clock in the morning. They served beer or something. We're in this kebab shop drinking beer. It's like, get out of this morning. Why do I do that? Why do I do that? Because she could. It was fun. Yeah. It Anna VanAgtmael: was there. Right? And Yeah. It's sort of once you get into it, you're like, well, why would we stop now? It's sort of that, like, energy. But but I've been enjoying life more now that I've now Joanne Lockwood: got control over it rather than, on some sort of autopilot or or predestined. How how am I gonna feel in the morning? Terrible. Now I know I'm gonna wake up in the morning feeling great again. Yeah. Anna VanAgtmael: Nice. So and I how do people get a hold of you? Joanne Lockwood: You do all these retreats. So, obviously, you've got your own business that goes for treats. You then you also an organizer for other people. Yeah. So if you're if you're a if you're a budding retreat organizer, how do they get ahold of you? Or if you if you wanna just check-in and experience one of yours. Yeah. Money making retreats.com, Anna VanAgtmael: if you wanna just book a quick 30 minute consult, it's free. You'll know immediately if we're a good match or not or if you don't like me. And then retreats that don't stock.com if you wanna go on one of our retreats, but we only have one spot left for you to retreat with us this year. We only have one spot left to Iceland. Italy's sold out and yeah. But we'd love to have you. One more. Iceland's awesome. I Joanne Lockwood: remember I was in Iceland, 1998, 99. I think it was about then. And we stayed in this hostel in the middle of nowhere. And I don't know if it if anyone's listening, I don't know if you know about Iceland has this culture of sagas. And they have all these people from ancient years, and what they used to do is get together and tell each other stories, which are sagas with it's like a bit like our Robin Hood or whatever, sort of stories. Most these places had had a natural hot spring Yeah. Where people go and dive into. We were in this hostel in the middle of nowhere, and we had loads of whisk loads of vodka. We just had bottles everywhere, but I'd load about 30 or 40 of us. And so I sit up. There's a hot spring or hot tub outside. So we we all piled in it. About 10 of us, all sitting there around the edge with our feet into the middle, passing the beer around. And then, someone came security guard came flying out and sort of screaming at us. It was a national monument. This was the the hot spring hot spring associated with one of the leading saga aficionados, a guy called Snorri. It's a Snorri's hot spring. We didn't speak Icelandic and well, not we had a couple of Icelandic friends with us, and it was kinda like we all kinda left sheepish and sort of stuck it back in there, but we were we were all stark naked in this hot spring. That ain't an ancient monument, but Hey. What? They left it unguarded. Anna VanAgtmael: Gosh. The story. So Iceland's a beautiful country. It is beautiful, and also the middle of nowhere kinda describes the majority of it. It's straight away. I mean, the the the geysers, the, Joanne Lockwood: the Blue Lagoon, Yeah. These are places. We we even did they took us to, the glacier, and then they got the big donuts, and we were slide down the glasses on the donuts. Yeah. It was a lot of fun for a week, and, we skidooed across the glasses. And I remember they said to us, make sure you keep in single file because if you're not careful, you could go down a crevasse or something Yeah. In the snow. Of course, every time the, the guide face the front again, we all spread out trying to overtake each. He turned around, and we go, oh, we're back in the middle again. Oh, we're back on the outside. And it yeah. And then someone told the story. He said, yeah. People actually do fall down crevasses where the the snow is, you can't see the can't see the gap. Yeah. We felt lucky to survive there. That would have been a serious error, that would. Anna VanAgtmael: Yeah. Lucky. And that it's been absolutely fantastic Joanne Lockwood: having a chat with you. And, I think we used the effort at least 4 or 5 times in there, which is a not bad for one of my episodes. So yeah. No. I really enjoyed you. A lot of fun, and I if I I I would definitely look you up. And I've gotta do a retreat sometime, but obviously not this year. It would be great. It would be great. Energy to Anna VanAgtmael: host something like that. So yeah. Well, I'll make sure I Joanne Lockwood: put all of your links into the, the show notes. And, and if anyone wants to get in contact with you, do what I did? Just track you down online and say, do you wanna be a guest of my show? And you said, hey. Why not? Let's do it. Thank you for having me here. It's Anna VanAgtmael: really been a pleasure. I appreciate it. Thank you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.