--- title: "From Toxins To Transformation" episode: 150 date: 2025-03-06 guest: "Christian Elliot" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/150-from-toxins-to-transformation audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-150/audio.mp3 --- # From Toxins To Transformation Joanne Lockwood speaks with Christian Elliot, a certified personal trainer, nutritionist, life coach, and founder of Healing United, about holistic approaches to health and the idea of moving “from toxins to transformation.” They explore why many people feel stuck in cycles of symptom management, discussing chronic conditions, medication dependence, and the practical and emotional challenges of coming off long-term prescriptions. The conversation also examines how language, incentives, and industry structures shape trust in “conventional” versus “alternative” approaches. Across the episode, Joanne and Christian encourage listeners to take a more active role in understanding treatments, ask better questions about consent and risk, and consider lifestyle foundations such as nutrition, hydration, and sustainable habits as part of a broader, holistic path to wellbeing. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:10 — Uncontrollable fires and smoke causing widespread devastation. - 03:24 — Family in Venice and San Fernando, smoke concerns. - 08:23 — Service to others: healing component within us. - 11:58 — Fought cancer for years; minds seek familiarity. - 16:06 — We make ourselves sick through lifestyle choices. - 19:15 — Cancer is a bigger pandemic than COVID. - 22:22 — Determined to defy family fate, survive diagnosis. - 25:25 — Navigating illness with unconventional treatment beliefs. - 29:15 — Believe in yourself; return to environmental purity. - 32:50 — Healing occurs internally, with subconscious wisdom. - 34:31 — Forgave others, sought forgiveness, felt relieved. - 37:32 — Reflections on Georges house and experiences. - 41:29 — Career influenced leading major company accounts. - 44:15 — Surgery, treatment, remission, recurrence�endless cancer cycle. - 49:52 — Transitioned careers at 57 despite scepticism. - 50:37 — Holistic journey accelerates healing; less side effects. - 54:49 — Maintaining balanced PH prevents disease growth. - 57:35 — Giveaway includes nutrition ebook, alkaline table, meditations. - 01:00:23 — Promoting inclusivity, episode by episode. ## Key takeaways - The challenges and limitations of conventional healthcare systems and the importance of informed consent. - The role of toxins in modern health issues and how detoxification can aid in recovery. - The distinction between treating symptoms with pharmaceuticals and addressing root causes through holistic methods. - Practical steps for weaning off long-term medications and finding doctors who specialise in deprescribing. - How lifestyle changes, such as diet and exercise, contribute to significant health improvements. - The psychological and societal barriers to embracing alternative medicine and ways to overcome them. - Strategies for integrating holistic practices into daily life to support comprehensive and sustained health improvements. ## FAQs ### What is the main focus of this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast? This episode, titled "From Toxins to Transformation," with guest Christian Elliott delves into holistic health. Christian discusses his journey from dealing with conventional healthcare to adopting and advocating for personalised, holistic detox programmes through his organisation, Healing United. ### Who is Christian Elliott and what are his credentials? Christian Elliott is a certified personal trainer, nutritionist, life coach, and founder of Healing United. His work focuses on empowering people to reclaim their health through personalised, holistic detox programmes. ### What inspired Christian Elliott to move away from conventional healthcare? Christian was motivated to explore alternative health avenues because conventional medicine failed him. He experienced poor results from multiple doctors and eventually found success with a chiropractor. This success led him to question and investigate the conventional healthcare system and explore holistic approaches. ### What does Christian Elliott identify as his superpower? Christian describes his superpower as simplifying complex health concepts into actionable, transformative solutions. ### What are the key issues Christian identifies with the conventional healthcare system? Christian criticises the conventional healthcare system for prioritising profit over health, focusing on symptom management rather than root causes, and for creating a monopoly on terms like "cure," "treatment," and "prevention". He argues that this system is built on treating symptoms rather than understanding and addressing the root causes of health issues. ### How does Christian Elliott define "alternative" health methods, and how do they differ from "conventional" methods? Christian argues that anything outside the realms of symptom management (cutting, burning, poisoning) falls into the so-called "alternative" category. He advocates for methods that focus on detoxifying and nourishing the body, enabling it to heal itself rather than relying on external pharmaceutical interventions. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with inclusion bites. It it. And today is episode 150 with the title From Toxins to Transformation. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Christian Elliot. Christian is a certified personal trainer, nutritionist, life coach and founder of Healing United, who are dedicated to empowering people to reclaim their health through personalised holistic detox programmes. When I asked Christian to describe his superpower, he said it is simplifying complex health concepts into actionable, transformative solutions. Hello, Christian. Welcome to the show. Well, hello to you and thank Christian Elliot: you for having me. My pleasure. Am I right thinking Joanne Lockwood: you're based in Florida? That is correct, yes. I live in the Christian Elliot: Sunshine State and love it here. Wow. You've got the Joanne Lockwood: weather, we've got the rain, we've got the cold, so, yeah, quite envious. Yeah. This time of year a lot of people are. Yes. I remember holidaying there with my family back in the early 2000s. Yeah, we had a great time. Did the Orlando experience. I did a bit of work out there in the Miami area back in the 90s. So, yeah, I've been to Florida, but it's been a long while. 20 odd years since I've been there. No, it's a great place and fewer of us are deficient Christian Elliot: in vitamin D here. And there's some upside to that. We have some of the nicest beaches in the world. Yeah, the Keys and. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: it's. And you got. Was it crocodiles or alligators? We get Christian Elliot: alligators. We don't get crocodiles, thankfully. Yeah. I mean, I Joanne Lockwood: remember going to Gator World and seeing the. Yeah, I suppose that's a clue. Gator World. Yeah. Yeah. They're less Christian Elliot: intrusive or threatening than maybe the stereotype, but they are Here. Yeah. I remember driving around the suburbs Joanne Lockwood: and there was signs saying, beware of the crocodiles because they're obviously the streams on the side of the road. And things like, you think, oh, wow. Don'T go wandering off into Christian Elliot: natural water elements without your eyes wide open. Yeah, yeah. We did one of those skimmers, the boats with a big Joanne Lockwood: fan on the back. We skimmer, boat, water and airboat. That's it. Yeah. And that was quite good fun. Yeah. So question your passion for holistic health. Reading the show notes, it's clear you know what inspired you to break away the more conventional healthcare and creative, personalised approach to true wellness, if you like. Yeah, I Christian Elliot: guess as much because conventional was just failing me. I've been to half a dozen different doctors trying to get well and nothing worked. And I found a chiropractor, wasn't even looking for one, just happened to be my wife's bridesmaid, went for carpal tunnel syndrome and I was like, well, she, my shoulder condition, that one, that was one of the main drivers of trying to heal. I'm like, the shoulder's closer to the spine than the wrist. That's about the extent of what I knew about chiropractic. So I thought, well, shoot, then maybe they can help me. So I went there and he blew my mind. He turned my paradigm of health upside down. He taught me about what I've come to call the food industrial complex or the medical industrial complex, this big high level system that has really profit ahead of people and that is really interested in the medical world and treating symptoms rather than getting to root causes. And so I had to get outside that to find how to heal. And sure enough, I healed well and in some ways have the health that a lot of people envy today because I just became a very concentrated student for about two years trying to understand what I thought, like why in the world is my healing journey not the normal way we do things? And so I had to peel the layers of that onion to find out why. Isn't this how we approach sickness? And there's just some, you know, there's business and ugly realities behind why that the systems are the way they are. And so I became a kid in a candy store trying to figure out what other things like this do I not know about? How many other profound ways to heal are there that are either just poo pooed or suppressed or I'm just ignorant of. And so I became a student of what we call the alternative world. I think that's also a label that conventional loves to give us. But anything that's outside of treat symptoms or cut, burn, poison is really, there's so many ways to help the body heal. And what I found is there's merit to a lot of it and it can heal in profound ways that medications and surgeries and radiation does not. And once I studied that at breadth and I couldn't go back, I couldn't pretend I didn't see what I saw. And so we ended up with brick and mortar locations. For nine years. We aggregated a whole bunch of different wellness disciplines, alternative modalities in one place. And I just, I got to watch how a holistic healing approach could really transform someone's health in short order or in with an appropriate degree of patience and discipline in dramatic fashion to where they're literally a transformed person. And that just became I want to do what I can to leave a mark on this world that says there's a better model for healthcare. I want to flip the current one on its head and say let's map out a better way. We don't have to fight the system as much as just show a better model. And so that's really been my work the last 20 years is as doing my part to demonstrate that. And because I've seen so many things, I can often simplify and spare people a lot of wrong turns or help them see through marketing gimmicks and shiny objects and options that are really just majoring in minors and aren't getting to the heart of the problem. Joanne Lockwood: Is it fair to say that most of us are kind of killing ourselves with what we're eating, what we're consuming, our body mass, of our lack of exercise, our health, our food choices. This is contributing factor to many of the problems we experience in society today, isn't it? It is and it's. Some Christian Elliot: of it is self inflicted and a lot of it is not. It's externally imposed. And one of the most eye opening experiences I had in my journey 2006 I read a book called the Hundred Year Lie. So he's retracing from 1906 to 2000. So he starts with the Pure Food and Drug act, which basically birthed the FDA and this idea that we would have pure foods and pure drugs. And the slogan better living through chemistry kind of came into vogue as we were going to use chemistry and reductionist thinking and a pill for every ill to solve all of our problems. And chemistry would make everything better. And what we also birthed was chemicals for warfare. And we, we switched after World War II to chemicals for warfare, for our food system, went to war against microbes and bugs and any sort of thing that was inconvenient in a healthy food system. We went to war against those so called inconveniences and in so doing we, we created in the last, you know, he traces in the book Over 80,000 synthetic chemicals, basically new to nature, molecules that our bodies were never designed to work with. They're, they are just corrosive or they interact in synergistic ways that we can't account for. And when you realise that happened with medicine and it's this mindset that we're going to treat sickness with whatever symptom you have, there's a pill for that, rather than saying where did the symptom come from? We're just in. The really monopolistic healthcare system was built on that foundation of standardisation and symptom management. You know, it sounds maybe somewhat cynical to say, but kind of the model or the motto of conventional healthcare is a patient that's cured as a customer lost. And so it's meant to keep them on a treadmill of services, if you will, of really. It's funny to think about it, but the word pharmaceutical actually comes from the word pharmakia, which means witchcraft or sorcery. It's this idea of like using potions to tinker with our biology rather than saying it's if we're using a chemical solution to treat a chemical problem, which doesn't really make much sense, we can't biochemical whack a mole our way out of being poisoned. And if you'll look at the US as some of the worst health statistics in the world, we are free falling in our health here and such to the point that, you know, in 1930s about seven and a half percent of the population had a chronic health condition. Today, six out of ten people have at least one. So from seven and a half percent to 60% in a matter of decades, one of the major things we have to swallow is that we are poisoning ourselves, to your point, with our foods and with our medicines and with the stuff in the air and the jet fuel exhaust that covers the earth and the smog in our cities and the fluoride in our water and on and on and when. If we can't get our head around the source of this problem and we're going to play symptom whack a mole, if we can't think outside the periodic table in order to better our health, then we are going to stay stuck in this loop and we do have to get out of it. And that's really what I've been, I'm somewhat of a locust eating prophet in the wilderness trying to talk about that problem really since I started, since I became aware of it. And so here we are full circle to 20 years later, 19 years since I read that book. And now it's not so taboo to talk about fluoride and vaccines and, and chemical toxins in our food and plastics and heavy metals in such in a way that it used to be. And now we can have much more honest conversations about where this is going. And the beautiful, you know the title you came up with here, the beautiful simplicity is it doesn't have to be complicated to get well, we have to get the toxins out. Then we have to nourish the body. So we purify it and nourish it and it can be that simple. When you break it down. Joanne Lockwood: There are obviously times where I use the word conventional. I mean other by using that word we're making it sound like that's the best one. Conventional, right, yeah. We've got to challenge the biases. You know, you've talked about alternative, we've got conventional. Even the language of that implies that one is better than the other, if you like. Correct? Yes. Sometimes just the conventional pharma medicines, drugs, vaccines have, have a place they work for a lot of people and there's times where they don't work. And we can clearly see examples where people have almost exhausted every conventional route and then the alternative medicine, alternative treatments, very remarkable of a way of stepping in at that point. They do well. Christian Elliot: And I'll even back it up one frame just to where you started with the, the, what we have in Western societies in particular the US is we have linguistic handcuffs. We, the so called conventional model has claimed for itself the exclusive rights to use words like cure, treat, prevent, mitigate or ameliorate and everything so called alternative is not allowed to use those terms. So I literally cannot say to you that water prevents dehydration or could cure dehydration because I'm now making a drug claim about a natural product and that's a no, no. And so the language police and the linguistic handcuffs that the so called alternative world is in is that was also chosen. They chose to claim we are conventional, we have science, be careful. Anything else? If you don't, if you don't follow what we do, you're, we are off the reservation and this is dangerous. And that was intentional to seep into the culture, the mindset that taking ownership for your health, we're exploring things outside of literally cut, burn, poison. It sounds barbaric to say, but that is the model of healthcare that is called conventional. Poison your body into submission. If it's not working, cut parts out. And if you got something significant, we can radiate you, we can burn you and burn that part of your body in order to help it heal. And the basic logic of that doesn't handle a stress test very well. So why is that conventional? And when you can recognise that, oh, that's the model, and you rewind the history of it to figure out how it was set up and who set it up and why, and how they wove into legislating themselves into the title of conventional and corralling the medical community into this licensure standard of care and who was on the in club and who's out. That system was set up to control things. So us in the alternative world, we have to figure out how to say, well, this helps the body heal and it doesn't cure, treat or prevent anything, but it can help empower different systems of your body to function more optimally. And in truth, that's actually what we're doing. We're not treating or curing or preventing anything. Guess what does that the body does that. The body is what heals itself, the intervention doesn't. And so then it becomes, to your point, what things, what interventions, what modalities? What things can I swallow assist the body in functioning more optimally? And you can also ask the question, what keeps the body from optimally functioning? What keeps the body from being able to heal? Why do we have these kind of situations in the first place? Because they're typically a product of very prosperous societies where we don't have to connect with the land anymore, we don't know where our food comes from and we're detached from intuition, then we've outsourced our health to people who have the title expert. And as if because we don't have education in pharmacology, therefore we are not qualified to manage our own health. And so there's this pedestal we put doctors on, as if they have the answer. And in any discipline, doesn't matter where conventional or alternative, they have a sliver of what health really is in their specialty. I've come to call specialists partialists now, because I think it's more accurate to what they know, the tiny part of the problem. And when you can break that spell and think holistically, gosh, it's so much easier to find your path to healing. There's a learning curve to it, but sure enough, it works. And that's really the work I've been about for a long time now as. A patient myself, put myself in the patient shoes. I expect Joanne Lockwood: the medical professionals, pharmaceutical producers, chemists, whoever they are, to have give me certainty. I want to know that I can be cured. That's what I want, don't I? Yeah. And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the holy ground. I want immortality, I want invincibility. I want to know if it hurts, you can stop it. If I'm. If I've got a tumour, if I've got this, I've got that going on. I want to know that what you're going to do for me is reassure me that I will get better if I can. And I think what you're saying is the healthcare industry have the monopoly on the phraseology to give me that assurance. And there's. We've got risk management right here, we got who wants to be risk, who wants to take the risk of you not getting better? Am I insured? Am I covered? Are you going to sue me? There's all these kind of things going on, isn't there? Yeah, the whole model is Christian Elliot: fear based, once you think about it. You don't know enough. So you have to trust us. There are invisible things that might infect you and you need to be worried about that. And if you don't do the quote unquote conventional thing now, you're even at more risk. And what lacks in this entire conversation is informed consent. They don't tell you the risks of their treatments. When was the last time somebody laid out for you, so here are the side effects of this medication, here are the processes that your body runs that it will interrupt. Here's where it's going to throw a monkey wrench in, like for statins, as an easy example, the monkey wrench of this HMG CoA reductase inhibitor. Which means basically that's a fancy way of saying there's a particular enzyme that this interrupts when your body's synthesising cholesterol. And as a side effect of that, your body also can't synthesise CoQ10 anymore. So that can lead to heart failure and several different diseases of the heart. Nevermind. We're trying to prevent heart disease with this medication, but we're actually creating a different kind of problem that can lead to heart disease and a weakened immune system and gingivitis. And other things. And so what doctor ever lays that out for you when you go to get something to lower your cholesterol? Or how about the question why is the body making so much cholesterol in the first place? Because it needs it as a raw material to rebuild a healthy cell. So now I'm shooting the messenger and I'm telling the body to stop doing this because there's some artificial test that says your cholesterol needs to be in this particular range or you're at risk of clogged arteries and you're going to keel over at any second. We're back to fear now. And absence of informed consent is an oversimplified narrative that doesn't respect the biological processes our body has to run in order to build and sustain health. And because they have the ability to quote unquote, prevent that. Nevermind. It's kind of the opposite that the. Another easy example is the proton pump inhibitors for acid reflux. They turn off your body's stomach acid. Well think about that for a second. What do you need stomach acid for? To digest your food. Now how do you break down your food without acid? How do you get rock minerals out of your food without acid? You don't. And so if you don't get it out of there, where does your body have to find it? In your bones. One of the side effects of proton pump inhibitors is hip fractures. Why is it a hip? Because it's the most load bearing joint of your body. It's the one that your body put. Your body pulls minerals from it and eventually that bone cracks because it was deficient in minerals because it couldn't get it out of your food. But the system doesn't tell you that when it is just promoting this one idea. And it's on us to realise what how the system functions and and find the people who can teach us what our options are in a way that lays it out where you go, okay, I now I feel informed. And what to your point? I want to know that I'm going to be cured. I want to know that you can make the pain go away. I want to know you can cut the tumour out. Well yes, with the right painkiller you can flip a switch that tells your body, stop communicating that message to me. Make it go away so I can't feel it. It doesn't mean you did anything to get at the source of it. And now you've interrupted another physiological process and shifted your body into figuring out some other way to communicate with you. That there's still a problem here. That's called side effects. And then they just give you a medication for the side effect and another medication for the side effect. And, Well, I had one client on 13 medications. I guarantee you there's no doctor who has any clue what 13 medications are doing synergistically in one body. They don't know and they can't tell you because now it's. It's. You're in the polypharmaceutical diagnosis. There's no study anywhere of more than two drugs in one body at the same time. None. Because it's too complex to study the side effects of that. There's some that you can tell these two drugs don't interact well together. And so there's some one to one, but three or more clueless. This guy's on 13 and that's. That's just a shame that his doctors never gave him the informed consent to see where this goes. If we give you another one and another one and another one and another one, that's where people end up. And without that information, how are you supposed to make an educated decision? You're not. You're supposed to blindly trust. Yeah. And you've raised an Joanne Lockwood: interesting question that's going through my head right now, is it's easy to get onto these medications, these drugs. It's not so easy to come off of them. So listen to your sweet there. I take omeprazole, which is a proton pump inhibitor. Quite strong acid reflex, which is causing me esophageal spasms and things. Oh, wow. I'm on statins, which apparently are good for my heart, but also I know. This by the way. Yeah. To avoid also chronic ckd, chronic kidney disease. I'm also on. Where else am I on? I'm on two sorts of blood pressure medication. They operate differently. One is called Ramipuram. The other one called. Is some really long way beginning with Alma. I can't pronounce one of them is good enough. And at what point can I go back to my gp, my doctor and say, hang on a minute, I've been on these now for years and years and years. Do I still need to stay on them? And the basic response is, well, if they're working, they're working. Just keep doing them. And I want to know, can I get off this? Do I have to take all these medications? I have to declare these on my health insurance and I have to declare them on my travel insurance. And they're loading me because I'm on this medication. Do I still have potential CKD kidneys of these? I don't think I do, but I'm on this stuff now forever. So yeah, it's really interesting that we get on them. How do we get off them? Yeah, that's. But that model isn't even interested in asking Christian Elliot: that question. Doctors aren't trained in deprescribing, they're just trained in prescribing. And oh, that's add another one. Oh, that. The side effects of that are not so great. Let's try a different version of the same toxin. And if I was in your shoes, what I would do is just go back and say, what would it take for me to wean off of this? Or, or here's the fun experiment. Can you tell me why I have, let's say acid reflux or high cholesterol in the first place? Ask that question and what you're going to find, you probably get one of five answers. It's genetics, it's stress, it's ageing, it's I don't know. Or it's all in your head. You're probably just making up and you should probably talk to somebody because you're. You need to see a shrink. Now. That's the, the breadth of the best answers 95+% of medical doctors are going to give you because that's how they're trained to think. And they're, they're wooed and groomed in this idea that they are the authority and there is no higher, better option. And they use the term idiopathic, which has funny root. Idiot. They have this idea that we don't know what the cause of this situation is. That's what the definition of idiopathic is. Unknown origin. So you have a disease of unknown origin, which is to me is a cop out. It's the lazy answer to why did this start in the first place? And if we're not entertaining that question, what are we doing? How are we helping someone get well? We're not. We're assuming that it's because a medical doctor often will tell you it's incurable. And what they're really saying is I don't know how it could be curable. That doesn't mean it isn't. I have so many disease conditions I've helped people reverse. Not because I was treating or prescribing anything. I was just teaching them how to live a healthy lifestyle. And sure enough, the body figured it out. I just helped remove the burden and empower better function. And in many ways that's what healthcare should be, but it's not how the system thinks. You're just a chemistry equation or a lab test, not a holistic person with a lot of moving parts in your life and identifiable sources of problem. You're just 10 minutes of half listening in a pill. Come back and see me in six months or 12 months and we'll do another test. Well, that, that's a test is what was happening in that moment. What about the rest of my life? What about, what about doctor, what's going on inside my cells or inside my interstitial fluid? There's no test for that. There's no test for what's going on in your head. There's a questionnaire, a symptom, like amorphous, like you kind of have some of these. So let's just throw some darts in the dark and use this medication for your head. There's no lab test for that. How do you even know what you're dealing with? And I can tell you if you start asking those questions, the doctors won't appreciate it or some of you'll find the rare unicorn who's like humbled. And I had one client on proton pump inhibitors and I laid out for her the nutrients, Rob, the side effects and the eventual hip fracture that she was looking at. She went back to her doctor with that evidence and showed it to him and he said, you know what, you're right, we're going to have to get you off of this. But it took the patient pointing that out to the medical professional and kind of cornering them in the end state of where that goes before the doctor was in that case humble enough to say, yeah, there's, we have to maybe get at the root of this. And this as a long term solution is going to lead to other problems. Where was that informed consent at the beginning of prescribing that? There wasn't any. So Joanne Lockwood: anyway, one of the BP meds I'm on actually has a proven side effect of causing chronic kidney disease or early stage. It has an effect on the kidneys, so you can't overtake. I think it's Ramipril is the one I'm on, whatever that generic name is. So I know that I'm on. I'm taking the statins because the Ramipril has effectively impacted my kidneys. I've got to be careful. That and I, I've lost a lot of weight recently. I've lost over six to in the last couple of years. Stopped drinking a couple of years ago. So I'm actually wanting to Get a pathway off of some of this stuff. Hopefully my, my blood pressure will normalise now I'm living more health, less, Less body mass. There's no alcohol, so I'm hoping that I can wean myself off. But how do I wean myself off a BP meds without going cold turkey and saying, because these all have a half life, don't they? It's not like you stop taking them and then tomorrow you, you have to wait essentially weeks for them to come out of your system to get the true zero effect of them. And it's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, do I have a. Do I have a stroke while I'm, While I'm playing with it? You know, who knows? Yeah, there's. Christian Elliot: Some medications are easier to discontinue than others. The hardest ones typically are the psych medications. They can mess with, especially the longer you've been on them. So if you can appreciate what's happening in your physiology is if you're accelerating, suppressing or replacing a normal bodily function, right, you essentially, you're overriding how your body would respond to a particular situation that it's in. That's the hubris of medicine that says your body's not smart enough to fight this battle. We're going to intervene and tell it what to do. That's essentially what the medications you're talking about do. And so if you have for months or years been manipulating or tinkering with your physiology in a particular way and the body can't respond, the parts that are suppressed atrophy, they can't. They're. They're not as in shape as they could have been. And rebooting those systems, strengthening them again, letting them know it's your, it's now your job to manage this. There's a window of time where they get to re. Basically get back in shape and retake that responsibility and own it and manage it for you. And so like I said, and I, I would, if I'm in your shoes, I'm looking for a doctor who specialises in deprescribing and understand some of the hiccups you might experience as you come off of those things and, and then you. For. For yourself and just brace for impact, like buckle your chin strap and recognise that some of the work you'll do to get off these. There's going to be, as you shift your physiology, maybe some interruptions that are a little unpleasant as you, your body cleanses these things. To your point, as the half life of these medications, as they come out, it's funny to say that, but they're toxins, they need to be purged. And that finding its way to the exit can be a little uncomfortable. And to recognise that it doesn't necessarily mean you're off course if you're having a cleansing response or your body's readjusting to, like, think of people who come off of hard narcotics, cocaine, heroin, alcoholics. There's. There's a window of this is just really uncomfortable. And I'm doing this so that my physiology can reset and be in charge of its own processes again. So that's what I'd look for in a situation like yours. And as you are healing, you can appreciate that health is the side effect of a healthy lifestyle. Weight loss is the side effect of a healthy lifestyle. Better sleep, better mood, better energy, those are all the side effects. It's the compound effect of the right habits, carefully chosen and often that's. You can accelerate that with a good cleanse and you can accelerate that with nourishment of food and water and hope and. And movement and so on. And your body retakes the ground that it has lost because you're working with the first principles of health again, not working with a suppression of how your body's responding to something and trying to communicate. This doesn't feel good. I need some help here. And it's. It really, in some ways, it untethers you to the expert spell. It untethers you to the mindset that I need to outsource my health to someone and you take ownership of it again. And to me, that's the only path to healing that I know of. There's been some Joanne Lockwood: quite well vocalised horror stories about people who've been persuaded to come off cancer treatments for alternative or holistic medicine, not engaging in chemotherapy, radiography, whatever it may be, some of the strong cancer drugs to use alternative options. And these people have died. These people have not succeeded with these alternative solutions. I'm not saying they would have done if they stayed on the other ones. But the families believe they were then given the wrong choice, the wrong option. And there's always this anti. See, this is what crazy alternatives are saying we need to go back to the science. So how can we reassure people? Because there are no FDA trials on a lot of this holistic and alternative medicines. Or are there? Well, there's a. There's many facets to answering Christian Elliot: that and I guess I'll start with the first one that I think might be lead to the other ones. And that's the idea that we're back to where we said earlier. Fear is part of how we are trained to like. If you, if you can get someone an anxious moment, they are malleable and they are likely to do whatever you tell them with authority and confidence is the answer. So some of what we can appreciate about the pooh poohing of anything outside of so called conventional is that that's done with intent and it's even sometimes, I hate to say it, done with malice. It is done to make sure that we tell the stories the way we want them told to continue to keep the profits and keep people thinking a particular way. And so what they don't tell you is all the stories of people that got killed by the chemo or that didn't get any better, that didn't have any quality of life and that went. They don't. In the drug commercials that we get to play here. There's only two countries left in the world where drug advertising is legal, the United States and New Zealand. And the drug ads that we see on our tv, they never show somebody throwing up at the toilet. They never show somebody without their hair and going through all the side effects of the treatments. They show people living on permanent vacation and living their best life and this just beautiful picture. They don't, there's no informed consent. They just use these beautiful images and they just listen. You might have nausea, constipation, cramping, insomnia, vomiting, diarrhoea, four hour erections, blindness. And you know, that happens, just no big deal. But. And so that's one. It's truly uninformed consent, but it's a system interested in its own interest. You could, there's a great documentary called Pink Ribbons. You could cheque out that documentary just about the cancer industry in particular. The COVID is a giant stack of 100 bills wrapped in pink ribbons. So appreciate that there's a model that's protecting its own interests when it comes to what stories they will tell you. And they're going to do their darndest to find the one outlier story of the person who tried the alternative route and it didn't work out. And they're not going to tell you the stories of all the people who did go the alternative route and it worked out great for them. And they got to skip the hair loss and they got to skip the puking and they got to skip all of the chemical, which is what chemo means. They got to skip the chemical therapy and go take ownership of their health and approach it holistically. The Alternative world is not guiltless in this. They're going to also the outlier stories of the fastest, most rapid transformations and jaw dropping pictures are. That's what anybody's going to use in marketing. We're not going to tell you that for most people it's going to take a while. It's going to take some patience and endurance. Nobody wants to hear that. But once we can calibrate to what does healing look like. Okay, it's. It's. I can't win the argument that I can poison my way back to health. So that means what things can I do that build health? Then here's another there's no silver bullet when it comes to healing. There's no silver bullet when it comes to treatment either. But when it comes to healing, your health is not about one thing. All I needed to do was sleep and I got my health back. All I needed to do was drink this particular water. All I needed to do was eat this one vitamin. It's not that it's many things. It's hydration and nutrition. It's mind and emotions. It is exercise and movement. It's sleep and rest and play and meaningful connection with other people. Restorative disciplines that boost the body's ability to heal. And it's managing stress. That's how healing happens. And you can't get that in a brown bottle with a white lid. It's not how health works. We'd love it if it would be that way, but it just isn't. But we've been hoodwinked into thinking that it is. And healing requires ownership, whereas treatment just requires passivity and rule following and pill swallowing. And as long as you're willing to be a compliant rule follower, they're happy to treat you indefinitely the rest of your life and not and not tell you the stories of where that goes and why it doesn't work out. And they'll just highlight anything to scare you back into their model. That's the system we live in. And there are so many. That's the world I've swam in for the last 20 years is all the different ways the body can heal and the dramatic stories of reversing almost any health condition you can think of because the body is the healer, not the intervention. Once that clicks and you're willing to explore what would it take to. To heal. How do I evaluate the merits of medicine, what we call conventional, on its own terms and then compare it honestly to other options and you just kind of. Which suffering do you want to choose? Discipline or Toxicity like you're going to have either one can be hard, but what kind of life do you want to sign up for? Becomes part of the conversation, hopefully. Am I right Joanne Lockwood: saying that chemotherapy is a chemical weapon? Is it mustard gas or something? It's some sort of chemical weapon that's used in a controlled way, as you say, to kill cells in your body. It's. It's a. Yeah. Christian Elliot: Chemotherapy means chemistry, chemical. And essentially what chemotherapy is, is it's chemical therapy and it's a poison that. The idea is we're going to target this as best we can and poison the cancer cells, poison the part of the body that we don't want to be growing and know it's going to do some collateral damage and poison other cells. That's why you have all these gross side effects, because everything's poisoned. But the hope is that we poison enough of the bad cells that the body can then get back in front of it and kind of reassert itself and maintain health. And that's. I mean, they can do surgical. Like you can get around the perimeter and inject particular parts and try to target it right at a tumour. But here's the problem. You puncture into the body, into the tumour. What happens when you pull the needle out? There's a vacuum and you just pulled. What if cells are already metastasizing? You've just littered them into the rest of the interstitial fluid, circulatory system and lymphatic system. And now you've spread that, hoping that you're. You're just playing the odds that you can kill more than you harm and hope it works, that's chemotherapy. It's chemical therapy. And if you want other options, if you want to place your bets on the body healing, then it just requires. If there's a learning curve and there's. There's experimenting, there's no one thing that works for everyone, but there are things that work really well and, and it's finding how you use them in your situation. And that is just. It's not a conversation medicine is interested in having. I'm. I happily stand toe to toe with any doctor and reason with them, but they often don't like what I have to say because I'm. In some ways, it's questioning their entire profession and the methodology behind it. And I will tell you, there are some great doctors out there who really do embrace this and they know where their profession is kind of weaponized against the populace or where their limitations are, and they use their licence to help people heal. There are great doctors out there, but I'd say they're more the exception than the rule. And if we're going to heal, we just. We want to think about the puzzle differently and come from a. What we call a healing paradigm which places primacy on the body's ability to heal rather than on the intervention to do all the work. You're saying just now about the US and New Zealand are the Joanne Lockwood: only two countries in the world that allow advertising pharmaceuticals on mainstream television, et cetera, is the American healthcare model and the way it's structured, unique in the world. Because, you know, some things you're saying around the pharmaceutical industry don't resonate necessarily with me as a Brit in the uk, because our model is nhs. It's all institutionalised in that way. No one can sell me drugs directly. I don't feel under pressure to consume medication. And I believe, although I could be wrong, that our doctors are not sold to in the same way at a GP level, maybe at a national level, but they're not targeted at a local level to buy favourite drugs. I mean, is that a Netflix documentary about oxytocin? Was it the painkiller? And the whole model around targets and selling and. And people were being persuaded to consume more of this, killing them? Yeah, I don't see that model here. Is that a difference between the pressure you're feeling in America, in the us versus maybe a European model? Yeah, I think that to me, it's the same Christian Elliot: system manifesting itself in two different ways. So, one, you have a centralised conventional versus a theoretical idea that we can navigate conventional ourselves. And so, yes, there are key differences, but at the end of the day, it's still allopathic medicine that your health system is built on. Same thing in Canada. They have a. Allopathy has won the day and claims the title conventional. And so now it's just standardised that these are the things that we do and any doctor that wanders outside the protection of so called standard of care can lose their licence. They're. They're not following what the system is set up to do. Then you've more or less created the system where what gets paid for is conventional, so we have more options to pivot and try unconventional things. But you don't have to sit through the barrage of all the advertising and attempting to woo us into a particular model of healthcare. We just have the largest advertisers on all mainstream media, 50 to 70% of their advertising revenue, more in an election year comes from pharmaceutical Companies so they get to dictate content, they get to dictate culture. And that is, is part of what we swim in here. But in the UK and Canada, you guys have, you've just already, you've skipped ahead of us and you've just made that model standard for everyone and now you just pay for it with your tax dollars. You now pay for people to tell you this is the only way. And so there's, there's upside and downside to, to both where you theoretically all the services you get are covered. Yet that's like us subsidising the crappiest food that you could possibly eat is one of the things we do here. And we've made garbage food like products subsidised so heavily that they're the least expensive for the consumer. Well, that was, that was a plan. And so now we're eating the worst food and paying for it with our tax dollars. You're getting the worst health care in some ways and paying for it with your tax dollars. And it's okay, it's free, but you already paid for it. And it's the only option typically that you're going to be presented is this one model. And so in some ways it may be harder to break out of that. Our insurance world here is set up to cover pretty much everything medical, allopathic, and rarely covers all the alternative stuff. And that my wife and I, my family and most of the people that I'm friends with are in our alternative circles. We're just used to paying out of pocket for any healthcare we actually need. But here's the fun part. We hardly ever have to go to the doctor. We. My, my health insurance is my food. My health insurance are my habits. My health insurance is what I know about health. I, my, my kids have, have never been to the doctor. Maybe the last 10 years, other, no longer than that with unless there's some sort of emergency that needs stitches or whatever, we don't. We have no use for that system. So our tax dollars don't have to go to that, which is the beauty of it. I'm not paying for a system I don't use. And in your world you do, whether you use it or not. But you're still in the. Here's all the medications they're going to give you. Did they tell you about chiropractic and acupuncture and 40 other holistic disciplines I could mention? No, probably not. And it's a shame that that's how the system's set up to work. It's just keep people in this cycle, on this treadmill of regular visits, regular tests, regular medications and we'll see you in six months and we'll do another test and tell you which medication to take. Is that healthcare? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the other, the other Joanne Lockwood: challenge, maybe in the uk, just giving a perspective that's coming into my head is that I go and see my GP and it's covered, it's free, don't pay extra for that. I need to go to hospital, it's covered, it's free, whatever it may be. Don't just pay extra for that. If I go homoeopathic alternative, that's on the clock, isn't it? I'm paying. Suddenly I've got to fork out for something that I consider is free. Yeah. Even going to a homoeopathic outlet for medicine and pill and vitamins or whatever I'm going to buy, I have to pay for that with my prescriptions, I get a fixed price, I've got a prepayment card, all my prescriptions are covered. If I've got certain health conditions or certain age, they're all free. So suddenly I've got to, I've got to start paying for something that I consider to be a free right in my society. That is the barrier as well, isn't it? Christian Elliot: It is. Well, let me give you another historical window into what you're talking about. So there was a, an era in the late 1800s, first half of the 20th century, so early 1900s in this country where we had a very, very robust set of what you could loosely call mutual aid societies, where it's largely immigrant focused, so people with a particular plight shared values, they'd come to this country and they, they needed a safety net, they needed some sort of place to land and build a life. And so naturally, in this free market, they set up mutual aid societies, which some of them grew, there were thousands of them, some of them grew to hundreds of thousands of members. And you would pay a day's wage to get a year's worth of benefits and that would cover life insurance, that would cover doctors, that would cover gymnasiums, they built roads, they built schools, all sorts of perks of just being part of this society. And what that did, because there were thousands of them and because people weren't dependent on the dole, they didn't rely on the government largess to meet their need, they were a threat to monopolists. And so what monopolists did was basically legislate and infiltrate those and force them out of Existence and make, and start making the government cover things just like what you're talking about. So that why would I, I, I continue to pay this membership to this mutual aid society when the government's already covering that for me? I don't. I can to your point, I can go see my doctor or I can pay out of pocket for homoeopath. Well why would I pay money when I have a doctor? Now that was intentional. And that system is set up to, to keep you thinking the same way or feeling the same way or feeling they'll hit in your wallet so that you don't explore health and they can keep you on that very profitable treadmill indefinitely so that there's, there's a, there's a concerted effort, whichever model you're talking about to make sure things are centralised and that you follow and know one way. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I'm just thinking if I, if I was diagnosed tomorrow with something, something serious, something significant, something life challenging, I would be under a, an enormous emotional family pressure to follow the conventional. Yeah, you would. Most likely I would feel obliged mentally in my own head to go conventional because at what point do I want to convent put my chips on the table and go all in on something that is alternative? When everything, everything is telling me conventional is the way it is. Only when conventional gets exhausted it no longer delivers anything. I'd feel comfortable going alternative but I wouldn't go alternative to start with because the bias in my head says I'd be crazy. Because everything I've been told. How do I break out of that? Well, you recognise that you're in a trance for Christian Elliot: one and that simplicity, that one is treatment and override the body's abilities and nudge it to work particular ways which always have side effects. That's statins, proton pump inhibitors like we talked about. Chemotherapy is no different. Look at the go. Just look up the stats of the success rate like 2% maybe that you get benefit compared to not doing anything. They're not going to tell you that when you go look at it. So some of it is this due diligence and research on your own part to get confidence and fortitude the backbone to try another way and pick your battles. You don't have to tell everyone that you're trying other things. And even if you stick with so called conventional, why does that preclude you from trying other things to boost your body's ability to heal too? Like it's not one or the other. It could be both. If you are committed to or just scared into Conventional. But there are so many ways to heal. And when you get the advice of one model, guess what they're going to tell you is the option. When you go to an orthopaedic, what are they probably going to prescribe surgery. When you go to an oncologist, what are they going to tell you? Oncology methods. You're not going to hear the other things outside their purview or their financial interests. So some of it is the way you, you could entertain the idea is you're going to have to become more educated and confident in what you know or what you've learned so that you can see your options with more informed consent and more breadth. And you probably don't win the argument that water is irrelevant to your health and that better food will be better for you and that exercise is going to help and that you don't need to sleep. And you're the only person on the world who can't benefit from stress management. Like all of those things will help you. And done well, they can help you dramatically. And so yes, it's an anxiety inducing moment to hear that you may have some condition, but the medical world can, to give them some credit, can do well. Is trauma and emergency care. Fantastic at that. If I'm, if I get hit by a bus or turn my acl, please take me to a medical doctor. But if I have a chronic condition and now I'm really suspect of whatever they're going to tell me, their testing can be sometimes insightful. Like we can see this thing on a scan. Never mind. Maybe we traumatised your body with contrast dye or pressure or radiation in order to find that. So we put an extra burden on you in order to identify it. But the testing can reveal some things. But what often goes with testing is anxiousness, fear. And this is the only way. This is the approved treatment. So because you have X now, Y rather than because you have this, here's a whole smorgasbord of options. And here's what it takes to rebuild a healthy lifestyle. That's, that's just not in their financial interest or education to do that. Yeah, as you, as Joanne Lockwood: you said now I just think about, you know, when you say investigations for chronic is, it's quite traumatic, quite stressful. You know, I've climbed into an MRI machine many times and CT scanners and X rays and things. All those are pretty traumatic experiences. Yeah. Emotionally, like in a metal tube for an hour. Yeah. Did they do Christian Elliot: a contrast dye for you? Did you ever have that? I had a Contrast. I've Joanne Lockwood: had a swallower, barium, a barium bearing swallow. Yeah. With a marshmallow. And they chew it and they. Yeah, Christian Elliot: okay, great. Stage way on that. Yeah. Yeah. Gadolinium is the contrast dye and that's a heavy metal that's toxic. And barium is radioactive material. That's how it glows because it's easier to see that on their scan. Did they tell you that this is a toxic metal or that barium is radioactive? Joanne Lockwood: I knew that. I didn't ask because I knew. Yeah. That's how the X ray works. It measures radiation. Yeah. So I got to put radiation in me to get Christian Elliot: healthier. I got to swallow a toxic heavy metal in order to boost my health and find out how to heal. Maybe in the mri, they Joanne Lockwood: ejected, I guess, another indicator into my. And you could feel it in the. In. In your groin if it feels like you're wetting yourself. Yeah. So all of that. Yeah, had all that. That's just. That's the system. And when you choose Christian Elliot: to engage in the system, you can. You can't be angry that you get what the system will offer you. That's all they're gonna offer. And if there is a different path you could go, then it's kind of. It's. I hate to say it's on you to find it. It's because they're not going to. Oh, like here. Like, here's all the side effects and this is why it might not be good for you. And here's some other ways you can heal, and that's. You go to a chiropractor and ask them to promote that. They're not going to do it. Go to a medical doctor and ask them to promote. Chiropractor. They're probably not going to do that either, but both can be there. There's some merit somewhere in there, and it's on you to find it and to recognise the risks and the downstream effects of some of the things they're telling you to do. Once you see that, you can't unsee it. And then it's. Then it's personal responsibility and choice and so on and so forth that gets in the mix of how you choose your healing path. Yeah. I know enough people who have Joanne Lockwood: used complementary alternative medicine, however you want to describe it. My mum, for example, she was developing arthritis in her fingers and other joints and she became a pescatarian. So she fit to be abandoned? Well, she abandoned band of meat, red meat, white meat, whatever. And she eats a lot of fish, oily fish. And I'm not saying she hasn't gone in, hasn't reversed the effects of the, the arthropod she had, but she's certainly now able to live more comfortably. And I, and my mum also, we only drink decaf coffee now because I realised what caffeine was doing to me. I've abandoned alcohol and I'm, I think I mentioned to an agreement, I'm on weight loss medication which may not be complementary alternative, but I was six of a stone overweight. I need to get this off and then I can start looking at my health in the future. Because a lot of things, I think what's going on in my body at nearly 60 years old is as a result of being significantly overweight for most of my life and having a toxic relationship with alcohol. So taking some of that out of my body. Yeah, and some of the, some of the slimming products is basically sludge. Low fat food is basically sludge, isn't it? Well, yeah, Christian Elliot: they have to chemical sludge. You take out fat and you have to satiate the body with something else. And so they just put in fillers and starches and things to try to replicate the enjoyment we get out of fat. I would tell you confidently, fat is not your enemy. If you're getting good fat, if you're getting vegetable oils or seed oils, trans fats, that's rotting you from the inside, but good coconut oil, olive oil, animal fats, butter, cheese, those are great fats. And I would, I would also argue good fats from red meat and healthy, you know, pasture raised chickens and so on is also great. But yeah, nutrition's a whole. Another long conversation perhaps, but that is, yeah, you can, the more you clean up and reduce things like you talked about, you take away some of the crummy foods, you take away the alcohol, you take away, you get rid of some of the toxins that are just mucking up your insides. Of course your body's gonna feel better, of course you're gonna lose weight because you're, you're getting at the source of the problem. And toxins are stored in fat cells. So if you're overweight, guess what, you have a toxicity problem. And that's how you, you get rid of the toxins. Sure enough, you lose weight. It's weird because your body, you can reduce your calories really low, but if you're still toxic, the body can't let them out because it can't get them to the exit. So reducing your calories, you wanna make. Sure the calories you are Consuming are good Joanne Lockwood: calories. Correct, Nutritious calories. Yeah. You're not infected with Christian Elliot: parasites that are eating all your food. For you, that's another conversation. So there's, there are things that prevent good habits from bearing the fruit. They can. Then once you get your head around the basics, it's so much easier to heal. Everything Joanne Lockwood: you said, I'm buying into it. I completely. Yeah. I'm not saying I need to persuade you, but I've already worked out in my own head that she say chronic conditions, doctors can't fix chronic conditions. They basically say, well, you're going to have to live with it, you're going to have to sort of deal with it. You know, there's no pill, there's no medicine, it just is. Yeah, yeah. You say, if I'm in A and E, bad trauma, I've got something really seriously broken, it's life threatening. Yeah, you're right. They fix it chronic. A scratch of their heads, they're prodding and they say, try this, try that, see what happens. But how, how do we take everything you're saying and rebrand alternative or complementary in the mainstream and push against the tide of the pharma industry, the medical model, all the things you've been talking about, how do we create that change in people's minds? I don't know a better way Christian Elliot: than education. And it occurred to me many years ago that fighting the systems, probably it's like punching the wind. I get me mad at it or I can just go to work and try to build a better model. And so that's really what I've been about. And the way that we choke out this, let's just say destructive way of approaching health is just not spend our money on it and not spend our time on it. We feed it by going to it. Well, what if we stop? Like if everyone stopped using your public health system, the doctors will go out of business, there's nobody to treat and so I don't think we're going to get there tomorrow. But as more of us just say, I opt out, I'm not going to participate in this system, it loses its life force. So I think we just demonstrate a better model by saying, I'm going to take ownership of my health, I can't make sense of poison my way back to health. So let me just level up my food, my habits and my inputs and sure enough, that's where health is found. And it's very attractive because it's life giving and it feels good and it's, you get Back in control of your own mood and your own energy and your temperature and all the other things that have been taken from you by continuing to participate in that system. So the short answers are educate yourself and opt out. You can't necessarily in your system opt out of paying the taxes that for a system you're no longer going to use. But what you can do is just, oh, well, that's the system I'm in. Almost like a write off, like, well, at least I don't have to engage it. And we did that with public school system. Like I just can't envision sending my kid to institutionalised education that doesn't meet the needs of my kids. It's. They're, they're individuals, not lemmings and they have the most robust social life of any kids I know. And they're the most well adjusted kids I know because, oh well, we pay taxes to that keeps that system going. But that doesn't mean I have to participate. So same thing with healthcare. Educate yourself and opt out. That's really how you do it. It's Joanne Lockwood: been an absolutely fascinating conversation for the last hour and a bit before the greenery and I'd love to catch up with you and talk about the dietary side as well as well as the pharmaceutical side at some point in the future. So how can people get a hold of you? I'm sure people are really keen to read more about your work and your programmes and things. Well, Christian Elliot: thank you so much for the kind words and I'd be honoured. So the couple of easiest places to get a hold of me. So I do have a blog and a podcast called Deconstructing Conventional. So I've given my best pearls and I continue to learn and I'll continue to pump out shows. But if you want to go deeper into nutrition and so many other topics, I have podcast episodes on many of these things and some fascinating interviews as well. It's called Deconstructing Conventional because it started with the idea of like, can we deconstruct how we came to call this model of healthcare conventional? So episode two just lays out some of the history of that. So you can cheque out the show on pretty much anywhere you find podcasts Deconstructing conventional. And I also have the collaboration I'm a part of right now is called Healing United, which is myself and other doctors and coaches who really look at health holistically. We're building the model to replace. We're the rebel Renaissance, if you will, to replace that just by saying you guys get to pick. We think this works better. And so our main focus is on two things. It's purifying the body and nourishing it. It's on taking out the toxic load and nourishing the body back to health. So you can find out more about that in our detox programmes at healing united today. Instead of.com we picked dot today. Just we want a sense of urgency. Let's. Let's get on with it already. There's a better way to do this. So healingunited today, you can request a consultation or you can just enjoy some of our free content and find the podcast there as well. Awesome. I'll put all of those details in the show notes below. Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it's pass that. So Christian, thank you. Thank you. It's been great being here. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing, growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return turn with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.