--- title: "Stress! We don’t need to suffer and be victims to our emotions" episode: 15 date: 2020-09-24 guest: "Ruth Fogg" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/15-stress-we-dont-need-to-suffer-and-be-victims-to-our-emotions audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-015/audio.mp3 --- # Stress! We don’t need to suffer and be victims to our emotions Ruth Fogg joins Joanne Lockwood to unpack what stress is, how it differs from everyday pressure, and why it can build up unnoticed until it starts affecting health, behaviour, and relationships. They explore how stress can be triggered by stored memories, beliefs and values, and why stigma and workplace cultures that normalise overwork can prevent people from seeking help. Ruth shares practical, self-help approaches she uses with clients and organisations, including education on how the mind works, stress audits, and techniques such as hypnosis, tapping (EFT), and EMDR. The conversation also touches on lived experience, including Ruth’s hearing loss and how hidden disabilities can add strain in everyday environments, as well as the wider challenges of mental health support and prevention. The episode closes with ways listeners can access further resources and relaxation support. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Podcast episode with Ruth Fogg on stress. - 05:31 — Their antidepressant use was actually justified. - 07:30 — Past memories trigger emotional reactions now. - 10:29 — HRV technology shows stress impact on sleep. - 15:03 — Unseen stress policy highlighted negative work culture. - 18:02 — Teaching self-help through subconscious therapies and hypnosis. - 20:09 — Tapping, EMDR empower self-help for emotions. - 25:22 — Align personal values with organisational values. - 27:45 — Childhood car accident caused progressive hearing loss. - 32:34 — Chose early retirement; pursued counselling career. - 36:15 — Powerful books, impactful stories, workplace stress, stigma. - 39:30 — I didn't realise you were deaf initially. - 40:45 — Hidden disabilities often misunderstood; communication challenges arise. - 43:52 — Hearing impaired, missed alarm, realised vulnerability. - 47:22 — Temporary hearing loss offered significant personal insight. - 52:51 — Media raises awareness, lacks practical support solutions. - 56:17 — Stress costs companies; stress management boosts productivity. - 59:20 — Visit website, subscribe, and share Inclusion Bites. ## Key takeaways - The nature and challenges of hidden disabilities like hearing impairment, comparable to conditions such as asthma or diabetes. - Methods for dealing with everyday obstacles faced by individuals with hearing loss, such as phone call incompatibilities and the additional difficulties presented by face masks. - The importance of raising public awareness about hidden disabilities and the differing needs in workplaces and society. - Fostering a connection between mental health and physical health, alongside the consequences of stress on overall well-being. - Addressing the financial benefits and business incentives of investing in stress management solutions. - Effective self-help techniques, such as hypnosis and the Emotional Freedom Technique, for managing subconscious stress triggers. - The impact of workplace culture on stress, and how misalignments in personal and organisational values can lead to stress and decreased self-esteem. ## FAQs ### What are hidden disabilities, and why are they important to acknowledge? Hidden disabilities are conditions that aren't immediately noticeable to others, like hearing impairments, asthma, or diabetes. Acknowledging them is crucial because individuals with hidden disabilities may face unique challenges that others might not be aware of, leading to misunderstandings and a lack of appropriate support. Recognising these can foster inclusive environments, both socially and professionally. ### How can hearing impairments lead to misunderstandings? Hearing impairments can result in mishearing words, leading to amusing but confusing situations (like "tap dancer" being misheard as "lap dancer"). Moreover, challenges in using incompatible hearing aids with phones, or understanding speech when people wear face masks, can exacerbate misunderstandings and communication barriers. ### What strategies did Ruth Fogg mention for coping with hearing impairment? Ruth Fogg employs several strategies, such as reading subtitles on TV and avoiding high-stress situations where hearing is particularly challenging. She also leverages her skill in lip-reading to aid communication in various settings. ### What does the podcast discuss regarding stress management in the workplace? Ruth Fogg and Joanne Lockwood discuss the high cost of stress to businesses and the benefits of investing in stress management. Addressing stress can improve employee well-being, increase productivity, and ultimately prove financially beneficial for companies. They also stress the importance of workplace cultures that support open discussions about stress and mental health without stigma. ### What are some self-help techniques for managing stress mentioned by Ruth Fogg? Ruth Fogg advocates for techniques like hypnosis and Emotional Freedom Technique (tapping), which interact with the subconscious mind to address stress's root causes. She also uses Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing (EMDR), which can help individuals process stress and trauma. ### How is stress related to both childhood experiences and unresolved issues? Ruth Fogg explains that stress can build up over time, much like Russian dolls, with unresolved issues from childhood or past experiences adding to one's stress load. Addressing these issues is essential to prevent stress from leading to more severe health consequences. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones with rabbitika and let's get going. Today is episode 15 with the title stress. We don't need to suffer and be victims to our emotions. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Ruth Fogg. I first met Ruth at a regional meeting, professional speaking association about three years ago, and Ruth describes herself as someone who helps clients to understand why they are suffering from stress and depression to eliminate negative emotions of their lives. I asked Ruth to discover her superpower and describe it and she said, lip reading, you never know that she's listening. So. Hello, Ruth, welcome to the show. How are you? Hello, Jo. Ruth Fogg: I'm fine. I'm actually quite excited today because between within the next 4 hours, I'm going to become a grandmother for the first time. So it's an absolute pleasure to share that because I'm excited and I'm certainly not stressed. So thank you for inviting me today. It's great to be here. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Thank you for sharing that with me and the listeners. That's fantastic. You must be over the moon. Over the moon, yeah, Ruth Fogg: I am. But my son, sadly, is in Canada, so I can't jump in the car and go and be with them. So, yeah, it's a bit frustrating, but we will get out there as soon as quarantine is over. Joanne Lockwood: So I guess you were probably never going to be with them or had you planned on being in Canada at this time? Well, we were letting my daughter in law's parents Ruth Fogg: go out first and they've actually gone out today, but they have to quarantine for two weeks before they can see my son and daughter in law, and then they have to quarantine for another two weeks when they come back. So we're going to wait for quarantine to finish it. That's far too stressful for me and I guess for them as well. But you could zoom in Joanne Lockwood: the meantime. So now we're living in this world where we can all be online. So you could probably have that long distance grandparent experience via mobile without the hugs. I'll wait and see. Yeah, virtual hugs, Ruth Fogg: all hugs. But that's fantastic news. And Joanne Lockwood: if you suddenly have to hang up and disappear, I'll know what's going on. So, yeah, no worries at all. It makes a difference from an Amazon delivery. We have a baby delivery. Ruth Fogg: Okay. So, yeah, I'm glad it's been delivered in hospital, not by. Yes. You Joanne Lockwood: can never tell if they dropped it or not, can you? The parcel that is not the baby. So both. Absolutely amazing. Thank you for joining me today. I know we've talked in the past about your passion, which is around stress. So why do we often suffer and become victims to our emotion? Ruth Fogg: Basically because we don't understand what causes us stress. It's one of those things that is present in everyone's life. At some point, especially recently with lockdown, people have found it really difficult. So most people can actually identify with some form of stress or anxiety, which doesn't actually mean they have a mental health condition. Stress is an everyday thing. We have all sorts of daily hassles and pressures, things we have to deal with. But if we understand why we're stressed and what triggers our stress and we know how to deal with it, then it's not a problem anymore. My strap line is positive solutions for peace of mind. Because if you have peace of mind, you're not stressed and you can cope with whatever curveball life throws at you. And when I say understanding what causes you stress, let me give you an example. I had a young woman who came to see me this week who said she'd had a panic attack last Saturday at Chessington World of adventures, of all places. And she couldn't understand why she'd had this panic attack. But when we explored it, all sorts of things had been going on in her life. During lockdown, she'd had a bereavement. She was worried about going on to antidepressants because her mother in law and both her parents were on antidepressants. So for her, it felt like the norm. But in actual fact, the reasons that they were on antidepressants were justified. One of them, her father, was a prison officer who had been attacked by an inmate, and he had been quite badly hurt and he'd been retired as a result of this. And he was taking the justice system to court because it had all been covered up, this attack. So he, to my mind, was quite justified in terms of actually being stressed. And the mother in law was spanish and had been enslaved and abused as a child. So it's not surprising they were on antidepressants. So when we explored this, my client understood that she didn't need to be stressed at all. It's a very simple example, but when we look at our past, we can understand how memories get stored in the subconscious mind. Now, we don't learn about the mind at school, I have no idea why, but the mind is in two parts, the conscious and the subconscious. The conscious is about 5%. The rest of it is the subconscious, so there's no competition. All our memories, thoughts, habits, behaviour patterns, emotions, everything we've ever learned and our automatic body systems are in the subconscious part of our minds. So things become automatic, like learning your tables. Repetition and practise, it becomes automatic. We learn our fives, we move on to our sixes and so on. And learning to drive, we only think about it when we're learning and then it becomes automatic. We don't think about it at all. And this applies to everything that happens to us. So when you have an upsetting memory, it's stored. And then when something happen that might be even vaguely similar, the subconscious goes, oh, I've been here before, I know what to do. And it gives us all those emotions back again, which can be very upsetting. So, for example, if you didn't like public speaking, or you were scared of public speaking, when you explore why, it probably goes back to school days. When you were asked to stand up and read to the class, you mispronounced a word, everybody laughed. And that memory is enough on its own to make you scared of public speaking. So it's understanding what's been going on and also about your attitudes, beliefs and values, because they too can have an enormous impact on stress levels. Joanne Lockwood: I hear what you just said there, Ruth. One thing that's jumping in my head is, is there a stigma around admitting you have stress? And is that stigma sometimes worse in men or women? Because there's almost like this negativity around. People use the word I'm stressed out without really knowing what I'm stressed out means. But when someone talks about depression or stress in a clinical sense, there's almost like this stigma that I'm not stressed, I can manage my own stress, I know what I'm doing. Do you find a lot of that goes on? Oh, very much so. It's one of Ruth Fogg: the biggest hurdles that I have to overcome, because people don't acknowledge their stress until they're desperate or they're becoming ill. And we all know that prevention is better than cure, but yes, there is an enormous stigma, but also there is a difference between pressure and stress. Pressure goes away. So if you're late for a meeting, you're stuck in traffic. When you get to your destination, that feeling of stress goes away. And I'm saying stress and inverted commas here, but if you are stressed, it's because it builds up and it builds up. We absorb stress like a sponge, and if we don't wring it out, eventually we become ill. And there are an enormous amount of stress related illnesses. And if the illness isn't caused by stress, it can be made worse by stress. And 80% of illnesses are connected to stress, and that includes heart attacks, strokes, cancers, ibs, all sorts of things, which is obviously the extreme end, but it's much better to deal with it as and when you can. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I saw a talk by someone who's developed some technology around HRV heart rate variability. And what they were doing was they were monitoring ceos in high stress situations and showing that their heart rate variability was indicated. Their respite from stress was so minimal throughout the day, they were even taking their stress into their sleep patterns. And they compared that between someone with high stress levels and high stress job, compared with someone who had a low stress occupation, who had low stress. And you could just see the difference between the red and the green graphs. Red being where your heart rate availability is indicating high levels of stress. And some people have 95% of their life inclusion sleep at this stress level. And some people obviously in less stress was like 80% not stressed. And I guess that's what you're saying is we take this stress into all of our lives, not just in that moment, isn't it? Ruth Fogg: Oh, absolutely. If you're stressed at work, you take it home. If you're stressed at home, you take it to work. If you've had a bereavement, for example, you can't just park that when you get to the office. And so if we're stressed, we're stressed. And let's be brutal here. Stress kills and nobody wants to die before they need to. So it's about taking responsibility for dealing with your stress levels as and when they arise. But first of all, you have to understand what it is that's causing you stress, what are your triggers? And that's so important. If people don't understand why they're stressed, they're never going to make sense out of it. And it's not always the obvious Joanne Lockwood: things, is it? It's not just work. It could be financial, something in the back of your mind, some anxieties about a situation or self imposed pressure that you create these expectations of yourself sometimes that you can't overcome. Absolutely. And Ruth Fogg: also, as I said earlier, it goes back to childhood. I have a set of russian dolls in my therapy room and as you know, they all fit into each other. And whatever we learn in childhood, walking, talking, we don't leave behind when we get to the next stage of life. So whatever our experiences are, we take them with us, good, bad and indifferent. And if you have a stress free life, that's great. But if you have a negative experience, think about if you have a bump in your car for months afterwards, you're very careful at that spot. Or if you see a similar car that bumped into you, because it's all stored in the mind and unless you know how to deal with it, it stays there. Another way of looking at the russian dolls, of course, is that if a problem isn't dealt with when it starts, it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until it almost becomes insurmountable. And that's when the body shuts down and that's when we get stress related illnesses. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, we're well aware that mental health is starting to be recognised as one of the biggest killers through not just suicide, but also in the mental side of oneself, overtaking the physical side. And organisations are now seeing that health and well being of their people, their staff, their teams in this stressful lockdown situation is also critically important. So you must be able to give some insight to people who are trying to help people who are remote working about maybe the stresses they're feeling. Is that something you're doing? Ruth Fogg: Give them the opportunity? Yes. But as we said at the beginning, stress is perceived as a dirty word. You referred to the stigma. And there are healthy working cultures and there are unhealthy working cultures. Unfortunately, most people are within an unhealthy working culture. You can google well being cultures or companies that have well being strategies and practical opportunities for their workers or their staff, but very, very few will actually come up. It reminds me of many years ago. I'm a speaker for the International Stress Management association and on Stress Awareness Day in November, we offer our services for free. And I went to a national insurance company, I won't name them and I put up their stress policy on the PowerPoint and none of them had ever seen it because they were part of the problem. They didn't have lunch breaks, they got in early, left late, none of them would leave until their line manager had left. They were part of a negative culture and they couldn't see it because it was staring at them in the face. And it needs somebody from outside to raise awareness and help them to understand that it doesn't have to be like that, because we automatically, as human beings, want to move from pain to pleasure. And this is the bit I don't understand because so many people seem to be quite happy wallowing in pain when they can actually do something about it. Joanne Lockwood: I've certainly seen that throughout my career, where it becomes the culture that you work until the last person drops. You're there late at night, you get there early in the morning. There's almost this culture where anybody who's not putting in those hours is seen as weak and you almost have to absorb this stress. And then when you're out at the office, out of the working environment, you then take that with you and you take it into your family life. And by taking into your family life, you're then bringing their stress levels up and it can become kind of endemic within your entire family as well. Not just the person having the stress at work. They share that, don't they? Absolutely. I mean, I've had clients who Ruth Fogg: have come to see me because they're stressed at work and then I've said, well, could you take my card? Could you mention that I do training to your HR? Oh, no, I don't want them to know I'm stressed. And a lots of people, when they go to the doctor for antidepressants, they don't want stress on their certificate. But again, what? They're not realising that antidepressants are like a blanket when it's cold or a bottle of wine. The problem is still going to be there when you wake up the next morning or you take the blanket off. So it's much better to deal with the root cause and clear it so that you're in control. Yeah. You mentioned there about going Joanne Lockwood: to the doctor and not wanting to put stress on the reason. In my career, I've seen many people being signed off with stress and it's almost like a giggle in the office. It's like, oh, did it all get a bit too much for you? There's almost like this disbelief that it was really stressful. I mean, come on, we all have stress around here. What makes you so special? Needing to be signed off for it? And I think that's part of the cycle we got to break, isn't it? We got to take it seriously. We can't just laugh it off as something that is a weakness. It's actually something that is taking over somebody and needs to be treated, as you say, not just a bottle of wine or a blanket to make it go away. Absolutely. Ruth Fogg: My particular strength is teaching self help techniques, because you can try and meditate, you can run around the block and jog, but if you start off unhappy, you're going to finish unhappy. So again, you have to deal with the causes. And when you understand what's going on in your mind and why and how and what, then you can work out what to do about it. And the way I deal with it is not by letting people have ten counselling sessions, because we can talk till the cows come home, but if you don't have any coping strategies, you don't move forward. So I work with three therapies which all work on the subconscious mind. One is hypnosis, which most people have heard about, but they've seen people doing silly things on the television, so they're very wary. But the example I give to everybody is that if I were to put them in hypnosis and ask them to take their clothes off and run up and down the road, they would come out of hypnosis immediately, unless they wanted to take their clothes off and run up and down the road. So I think that illustrates the point quite nicely. And hypnosis is, of course, one of the oldest healing methods known to man. And it feels like dropping off to sleep when the Television is on. There's a voice in the background, but you can't really be bothered with it, and it's very relaxing and it can get to the nub and the causes of the stress. So it's a great tool to have. And I offer audios as part of that package. So if it was training, depending on what I was looking at, low self esteem, low confidence loss, childbirth, conception, whatever it is that's causing the person stress, so that's hypnosis. And the second therapy I use is emotional freedom technique, which is better known as tapping. We tap on meridian points, but unlike reflexology, which also works with meridians, we're actually verbally expressing what the feeling, the emotion is. And because we have our feelings and our fingertips with us all the time, whatever arises, it can be dealt with there and then. And the third therapy I use is EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitisation, reprocessing. It's a bit of a mouthful and that involves eye movement, and it's a very simple technique, which, again, people can use themselves. So it's important to be able to deal with things themselves, and that's quite empowering. So I very rarely see people for more than three sessions on a one to one. And obviously in training, I will explain how the mind works and look at stress audits and stress policies in the workplace, if they're available. And then there is the opportunity to do workshops for whatever comes up from the stress audit. So it might be time management, for example, that's causing stress. It might be lack of assertion, might be lack of confidence. I mean, it's such a wide focus on what causes a stress, because what causes you stress won't cause me stress and vice versa. Everybody's different and we all have different stresses, different needs, different wants, different aspirations, and therefore everybody needs to understand for themselves. There's no blanket fix for everything. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I just talking now, I'm thinking the word anxiety is popping into my head. Are stress and anxiety different? Are they two sides of the same coin? Does one cause the other or are they completely different emotions? Ruth Fogg: That's a good question. I would say they're pretty much the same. But anxiety is a recognised mental health condition. Stress is almost the umbrella for it. It's a very, very fine line, because if you're worried or anxious, you're going to be stressed. So it's hard to differentiate, to separate the two. So someone has an anxiety attack Joanne Lockwood: where you see the stereotypical paper bag, sort of like trying to calm the breathing down. It's kind of within the stress umbrella. Something has triggered this anxiety that the brain can't cope with and the body almost shutting down to take you out of that situation. That's right. But again, it's Ruth Fogg: understanding why. So let's go back to speaking. If you are fearful of speaking to a lot of people, it might be that you are worried about what people will think of you, that you'll make a mistake, that you'll trip up a whole remit of reasons as to why they're scared, which makes them feel anxious and they get palpitations. But when they understand why they're scared and they deal with it, then they're calm and in control. Calm and confident. Calm and in control. That's where we all want to be. Yeah. I've Joanne Lockwood: heard from several people that one of the greatest fears we have as a human being is a fear of humiliation, being seen to be less than who we are. And public speaking, you are kind of putting yourself out there on stage or up front and people are then judging you. But on not just what you're saying, how you say it, how you look, how you move. There's a whole load of things going on in your head there about body consciousness, about self worth, self image, self expertise, imposter syndrome. So I can imagine that, yeah, it's a big ass for people who are not confident. Very much so. Ruth Fogg: And often in the workplace, in teams, some people have certain skill sets, others don't. Some are more ambitious than others and conflict arises and that causes stress and value systems. If in the workplace people are not aware of the vision of the organisation, going back to what I said about healthy workplaces and they don't have joint values, then there's going to be stress. Now I see lots of people who have relationship breakdowns and nine times out of ten it's because they have different value systems. What's important to one is not important to the other. And conflicting values cause enormous stress. So do conflicting beliefs. You only have to look at all the walls in the world, all the major conflicts. They're caused by different and conflicting beliefs and they all cause us stress completely. Joanne Lockwood: I often talk myself about when we're talking about inclusion and belonging in organisations, it's about having clearly defined vision and values for the organisation so that you can then align your own self with those visions and values, or not. And it may well be that your visions and values don't align and that's okay as well, in which case this is not necessarily the right place for you because I don't believe you can have passion and purpose without having clearly aligned values. And you wouldn't be passionate about working for a polluting company. If you're an environmentalist, there's no way you're going to want to give your all. So it's perfectly valid for people to have different values and recognise the fact that this isn't the right place or the right environment. There's no shame in that, it's just recognising that. But many of us hang on to this, don't, that we force ourselves into this role that I'll copart and that's we cover, we mask, we hide, we don't bring our whole selves to work. All these sort of phrases we hear because we're just living in the wrong culture, which is what I think you're saying there. Yes. And that Ruth Fogg: can trigger lack of self esteem, lack of self confidence, because again, the biggest issue I'm confronted with is I'm not good enough, I'm inadequate. It doesn't matter what walk of life it is it's such a common feeling that people feel put down, maybe through childhood, maybe in teenagers they may have been bullied, might have been a teacher or by parents, but when we're growing up, if we're told we're stupid, we'll believe it. I believed it. Not that my parents told me I was stupid, but because I was decaf, I believed that I was daft. And it took me over 20 years more than that, actually, to realise, once I got my master's degree, that I wasn't quite sedaft after all. But I'd grown up believing that. And those negative beliefs can destroy us. They can stop us, hold us right back from achieving our own aspirations. Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned you're decaf. I mean, thank you for sharing that, and I appreciate it. Doesn't define who you are, but it's part of who you are, part of a lived experience. So have you been decaf for most of your life? When did that occur? Well, Ruth Fogg: I was knocked down by a car when I was three years old. I was with my grandmother for the day in Liverpool, and in the early 50s there weren't many cars around, but I dropped my teddy bear, ran back for it and a car found me and I didn't know at the time, but I'd actually fractured both ears, so the nerves are severed. So I'm severely deaf in one ear and profoundly deaf in the other. The severely one has been relatively recent, because with age my hearing is deteriorating further, but it's an invisible disability, you can't see it. I wear hearing aids, they're nice and small behind the ear. But when I was a child, I was given a hearing aid and it was the size of a cigarette packet and had to clip it on your belt or tuck it in your blouse. And I was teased unmercifully. I hated it and I was borderline for the eleven plus, which meant you had to have an interview if you were going to pass to go to grammar school. And I could see the panel now talking about memories and how they affect us. And the lady in the middle of the two gentlemen had a hat on and I can't see her face, I can just see that blinking hat. And she told me to my face, I couldn't possibly cope with grammar school education because I was deaf. Now, that reinforced my belief that I was deaf and daft. Fortunately, my parents didn't believe it and they sent me to a private girl's grammar school. My mum went out to work to pay for it, but I blew my gcses I only got two out of nine. Well, why wouldn't I? I was daft, I was stupid, but I wouldn't wear my hearing aid. So I think I did very well to get two because I must have missed an awful lot, and I couldn't tell you how much education I missed, but I managed to get enough exams to go on to teachers training college, and kids shout, so I was okay. But then I did a diploma in counselling skills and I had some counselling, and it changed my life, it really did. So I was able to wear my hearing aid. So now I'm in a hearing world. But I would like to correct you on one thing. When you said my superpower was lip reading, you said, you don't know what she's listening to. I'm not. That's the whole purpose of lip reading. I thought you might be earwigging Joanne Lockwood: on conversations because you could read people's lips from a distance. I was wondering if you were doing lip reading. Earwigging, if you like. Wow. Oh, it's a very useful Ruth Fogg: skill. It really is. Especially when I did a lot of youth work training. And I used to warn them, I said, look, watch it. I'm a very good lip reader. And they used to test me, and I'd sit at the back of the room and I'd join in the conversation from the front of the room, and they couldn't believe that I could actually tune in to such an extent. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's a superpower, and it's like speaking a foreign language when people don't know you're speaking their language and you can tune into things that people maybe don't expect you to, but, yeah, I appreciate it's not a superpower you want to have, but it's a superpower you've owned and grown. So I've been through your bio that you sent when we talked about this earlier, is that you've had a number of phases of your life where you've probably had stress yourself. You mentioned about your parents and your child, and there's a lot of things that you've had to cope with as a person, as a child, as a parent yourself. So how did you feel like cope with your stress at the time? Ruth Fogg: Well, maybe I'll explain what it was at first. I'm an only child and my father died very suddenly, very unexpectedly, in 1999. And my mother had made it very clear to me that if my dad died first, she wanted to come and live with us. So that meant we had to sell her house and our house to buy a big enough house to accommodate her, well, that was okay. But then, at the same time, and I think it was in a reaction to my father's death, my oldest son developed chronic fatigue syndrome. So he was doing part time schooling, then going to hospital school, and had long spells when he couldn't get out of bed. At 14, I was carrying him to the toilet and at the same time my mother developed dementia. She had a stroke and then went into dementia. And there was no way I could cope with a full time team working management senior manager in an education department in a London borough as head of a youth service and be on call for a sick mother who kept escaping. And my son, my parents came from Liverpool and my mother would try and get out of the house to walk home. And it was a very, very difficult time. So something had to go. So, fortunately, I'd got enough years in with my teaching and my youth work career to take early retirement. So then actually building on my master's in counselling psychology and my diploma in counselling, it was an easy choice for me to explore stress, mental health issues because I could work from home and I could be here and I could see clients as and when. It worked for me to work around everything. So, yes, it was a very stressful time. It was probably the most stressful time in my life. But eventually we learned to cope. But I didn't have the skills that I have now, which would have been very useful. Yeah, I would Joanne Lockwood: just, again, listen to what you're saying there. And chronic fatigue syndrome, CFS, also known as me, is a very also misunderstood diagnosis as well, isn't it, people? You probably may have found there's a lot of lack of understanding around that at the time. It's only in more recent years has that been kind of understood in a more mature way, hasn't it? Ruth Fogg: Oh, yeah. I mean, trauma is unbelievable, how post traumatic stress can affect people. And that leads me into, as you know, I've just written my second book, which is called Tackling tough Times. And for the listeners out there, Jo has very kindly contributed her story to this, because tough times are tough. Sounds really corny, doesn't it? But it's very difficult to overcome tough times without support and help. And we don't realise the effect that they have on us at the time. Oh, well, it happened, so what? It's been part of your life, it becomes your norm and you don't realise that you can actually make changes. So I've got Joe's story, a survivor from the tsunami, who we both know who suffered incredibly with mental health issues and physical health. We also have somebody who has. I go goosey when I think about this. It was a woman who, when she was 13, was at her school sports day and she killed her best friend when she was throwing the javelin. The wind caught the javelin. The school hadn't obviously put health and safety measures into place properly, but just imagine living with that. I won't go into all the different stories. You can buy the book when it comes out, but tough times are difficult. But this too will pass is one of the phrases that comes to mind. But when we have sufficient support and help, it does make it easier. Yeah. It's Joanne Lockwood: a powerful book you pulled together there, and I know both those two women you mentioned and the story about the javelin, I've heard that one to one with her, and it's an incredible story of misfortune that has had an impact on her life in a very profound way and she's had to live with it and deal with that and read her book and read your book to find out more about that. And it's a very powerful story and I'm immensely proud you asked me to take part and hopefully any listen out there will find that book and we'll share that where they can get hold of it in the show notes at the end. So I was going back to stress. This is what we started to talk about, stress in the workplace. So you work with organisations. I think we've already said that one of the first things is to get people to admit they are stressed and that's a realisation because of stigma. As we talked about, this fear of being judged as being less because you can't cope. Sharing weakness, does it affect people at all ages? Is there a typical age? I mean, can a five year old child have stress or is it more of an adult thing? No, I see quite a lot Ruth Fogg: of children. Children manifest their stress behaviorally. They don't know how else to deal with it. So they might not be sleeping because they might be scared of monsters or they might be being bullied or teased at school and they can't cope with it, but they do find it very hard to express. So children love tapping eft, which I referred to earlier, but I also give them worry dolls so they can tell the worry to their doll and put it under the pillow. And I have audios of Merlin the magic monkey. And the child is taken to meet Merlin the magic monkey in the magic forest. And Merlin takes away all their worries. And I have yucky bugs, worry bugs, sleepy bugs. So stories that children can identify with, and then the slightly older age range, sort of ten upwards. Again, they love tapping because they can do it themselves and they don't have to admit to their parents what's wrong. They don't have to tell anybody, they can just get on with it. And for them, I've got a Harry Potter audio, so they go to Hogwarts. And this is suitable for sort of year six, seven and upwards, depending on their levels of maturity. So, yes, children and teenagers especially, suffer terribly from stress and mental health because teenagers are trying to find their own identity and as we all know, that can be quite challenging. And if their values are different to those of their parents or their peer group, then that's when the trouble starts. And, yeah, hence my first book, tackling teenage mental health. Thank you for that lead in. Joanne Lockwood: It's a pleasure. We've had loads of conversations over the last couple of years at various events, and if I'm really, really honest, I never realised that you were deaf until one particular instance. You may have said it, but I never registered that you were deaf, because you managed that very well in your life with your lip reading, with the way you interact with people. So I think it was only probably last year's conference for the PSA where you came up to me afterwards, because I did a feature during my keynote around how public speakers and trainers should be more inclusive about people who have hearing. A parent or a deaf. And you thank me. I didn't associate you with being a decaf person, so you obviously have found techniques in your life through lip reading and interacting and a way of. Way of getting on. But I also understand that one of the things that can happen when you have no hearing, it does cause you to soar into yourself. And I understand one of the triggers for dementia can also be deafness. So do you talk to people around that as well? Not Ruth Fogg: so much, because I think of my disability as being one of the many hidden disabilities, because there isn't a white stick or a wheelchair or anything to send out that message to say, hey, there's something wrong. And of course, this applies to people with asthma and all sorts of things. Diabetes. Great long list, isn't there? In terms of going into yourself, you tend to watch and try and listen more than perhaps another person would. Somebody said to me once, well, you're really rude, aren't you? And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, when you talk to me, you look me in the eye, but when I talk to you, you look down at my mouth. So I explained why, but it can be misconstrued. And also, there are so many words in the english language that rhyme and often I get totally the wrong end of the stick. I can remember being at a social event and it was a formal birthday party and I was sat next to a young woman. And as you do, you ask the question, what do you do? And I swear to this day, she said she was a lap dancer, but she wasn't. She was a tap dancer, but it's a conversation stopper and sometimes it can be very embarrassing. And also, equally, when people repeat things, if they mumble and I have to ask them more than once, it starts to get embarrassing and then they might say, are you deaf or something? And when I say yes, actually I am, I feel embarrassed because they're cringing and it's one of those things that it can be quite challenging, but I have no choice. This is me and that's it, really. So I just deal with it as and when. Yeah, for Joanne Lockwood: sure, I'm a selective hearer, so I often drift off in my mind when people are talking to me and I don't hear. But that's more down to my lack of attention, so I have to practise active listening, otherwise my mind's off the fairy somewhere. But no, I think, as you say, it's a hidden disability, and in the workplace, we don't often consider people with these hidden disabilities and stresses in their anxiety limiting beliefs, impostor syndrome, as well as the physical disabilities such as hearing or sight or whatever. And you say you don't have a white stick, you don't have a little flag that says, move out the way, I'm deaf, please. But there are a whole lot of challenges around a lot of visual audible cues. You hear a train coming here, a car coming, you hear a fire alarm, and people are going to be mindful of the fact that you may not be able to respond to those cues in the same way everybody else can. That's very true. Ruth Fogg: I recall I was in Washington in a hotel and I was on my own and the fire alarm went off and I was totally unaware because once my hearing aids are out, that's it. I don't hear very much at all. And it was only the flashing light that alerted me eventually. And when I put my hearing aids in, of course there were sirens and goodness knows what. It was a false alarm, but it made me realise when I was the last person out of the building that perhaps I was a bit more vulnerable than I'd realised. But, yes, it can be quite challenging. I mean, my husband said, watch or listen. I don't like going out on my bike. I've tried to join lockdown, but I can't hear the cars coming up behind me. And it's things like that. But you adjust and adapt. Do you struggle with Joanne Lockwood: phone calls or does your hearing aids work okay with your phone? Thank you. That's a challenge. At the Ruth Fogg: moment, I've just built two new phones because for some reason, the hearing aids that I have are not compatible with my phones. So I'm running to answer the phone, taking my hearing aid out, putting the phone on boost, because otherwise I get feedback. So, yes, it can be very frustrating. So text is a good way to contact me because I will reply to that. Yeah. And I Joanne Lockwood: presume Zoom calls, where you have some video so you can lip read like we're doing now. We're doing this with Zoom so you can see my lips move as well, even though there's sometimes a bit of a lag. But at least you got the visual. Yes, but Ruth Fogg: of course, in this age of face masks, it's an absolute nightmare. I don't like wearing one myself because I don't know what people are saying unless I'm familiar with their voice, which when you go shopping, is highly unlikely and asking people to repeat themselves is difficult. And when I say that, people don't quite understand. So we'll get the Google app, which is the transcribe. But it's not what I'm saying because they can hear me. It's what they're saying, so I can't ask somebody, excuse me, hold on a minute. Get out. Google transcribe or take your mask down so I can hear you. Never mind. I'll just have to get my husband to do all the shopping, so there's. Lots of education to do still Joanne Lockwood: on not only stress, but on other hidden disabilities. And I guess in the workplace, we get so caught up in our own lives, don't we? We get so caught up about the sense of self, what we got to do, we often forget about other people's needs. And that, I guess, also contributes to stress. Yes, it does. And Ruth Fogg: I'm aware that I'm often tense because I'm straining to listen. So on the television, for example, now, I very rarely watch anything that doesn't have subtitles, but it's too stressful. I'm too tense, straining to, however loud it is. If the people on the tv are not facing me or they're not speaking clearly, then I've had it, I've lost it. The same with plays. Musicals are all right because I don't need to know the words, but plays are very difficult to follow. I've only got a very limited experience Joanne Lockwood: of hearing loss. Probably about 1012 years ago, I developed what the doctors believe I had a virus or an infection in my ears and my hearing became very, very impaired for probably about six to eight weeks while the virus infection cleared up and I suddenly realised how vulnerable I was. I couldn't hear things. My family laughed at me having the subtitles on the telly. People had to tap me on the shoulder if they're speaking to me. I just was unaware of my surroundings and that was a bit of a wake up call because I'd never experienced anything like that. So whilst I cannot know what it's like to be you, I've got a little bit of insight as to what it would be like if it was like that for me all the time. And I was fortunate that one day I woke up and my hearing was completely back to normal. One day it was bad, one day it was perfect again, and it was a remarkable experience to have had. But now, to understand, just have that small insight on someone with a deafness or hearing loss is quite incredible. And also, talking about going back to stress, which is the title of this, one of the reasons you asked me to contribute to the book is I've had a period of my life where I've held things inside and I've developed my own stress and it impacted my family, it impacted myself, impacted my well being. And it leads you sometimes to be not a nice person and you can't do anything about it. It's like somebody else is taking control of your mouth or your brain, and you don't want to be short, sharp or moody, but you can't do anything about it, can you? And that's how sometimes stress manifests are. Ruth Fogg: Yeah, because what the mind suppresses, the body expresses. So if you are stressed, then you might have a tight chest or a tight throat, or you might be shaky, churning stomach, or you might be irritable. Your behaviour might change because it's locked in there and it needs to be released so that the mind and body are calm together and people forget about the mind body connection. The mind body connection is so important. And unfortunately, I blame the NHS for this, because in 1948, when it was created, they were talking about physical well being, physical health, and mental health has got left behind. And now I think mental health well, we know the connection. Mental health is absolutely key and we need to do something about it. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I work with my local NHS trust in the community engagement volunteer scheme and we were talking about this the other day about the lack of resources in mental health and how it's the underfunded segment of the NHS still, and there's a lot of pushback and I think with COVID with lockdown, there's been a greater awareness of the need to look at people holistically, not just physically, but also the mental side, because poor mental health exacerbates physical problems and it can actually, by boosting those mental health, they can almost cure themselves or be more positive about their outlook. And that's a skill that we talk about bedside manner, we talk about the doctors showing more empathy and giving more time for people. And that's all part of rebuilding people's mental health, isn't it? Yes, it is, but sadly, Ruth Fogg: awareness does not equate to action. And doctors, bless them, only have ten minutes per client, so they can't listen, they haven't got the time, and in their defence, they don't have the skills to help people to move forward themselves. They don't have time to train them how to deal with things. And it's very sad. And I'm not sure that the awareness raising from this pandemic will actually result in some action because we've been promised. I can't remember who the minister was, but last year they were going to put something like 30 million into mental health. But what does that mean? Are they going to train more counsellors, mental health practitioners? If so, why are cams, the children and adolescent mental health services waiting lists still six, eight, nine months? Teenagers are committing suicide because they can't see anybody and they're embarrassed, they're ashamed. It's really tragic, for sure. Do you Joanne Lockwood: think the media could help more? We see drama series on tv like EastEnders and Casualty, which are very popular. They've recently done some high profile characters with deaf who are deaf and the impact they're having and they're running a story, I think the casualty at the moment on a deaf doctor and how they're coping. Do you think the media is doing enough around stress and mental health, or are we still a long way from showing positive action in terms of mental health in the media? I think Ruth Fogg: the media and the soaps are absolutely brilliant at raising awareness of issues like teenage pregnancy, domestic abuse, all the sort of things that they actually tackle, but they're not very good at saying, well, this is what you can do if it's happening to you. I think the BBC and ITV have a helpline at the end of these programmes sometimes when things are a bit distressing. But it would be interesting to see how many people actually go on these helplines. I mean, we know that calls to childline have absolutely rocketed during this pandemic because families aren't used to being together all this time. And if you haven't got a garden, you've got no means of escape, then you are going to get on top of each other. And it needs some very special parents to keep the peace throughout family life. And it's so divorced from our, say, normality, whatever, that what it used to be, that it does cause a lot of stress in homes. So, in answer to your question, no, I don't think the media is doing enough, but I don't think the media actually knows what to do. Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so we need people to sort of follow up on the what next? So people like yourself bringing that into the communities, bringing that into the workplace, to say, right now you have the awareness, this is the next step, this is the action. So you talked about this stress audit. You do. And so you would go in and you would talk to various people, you would understand the stress profile of the organisation and then come up with that tangible action plan as a result. Is that right? Ruth Fogg: Yes. Because it isn't until you actually start ticking boxes. Oh, yeah, that's me, yes. That you realise the relevance of a stress audit and it's just a tick box questionnaire. I mean, it takes five minutes to do. Do you take work home with you, for example? That might be one of the questions. And you say, oh, gosh, yes, I do. And no, I don't work my contracted hours. And no, I don't see my boss regularly or whatever it is. And then it's graded so they can work out. And over a certain percentage, then it's like, this is the red area. Do something about it. Or amber, be careful. And green, you're chilled. Because we have different personality types. I mean, that's a very obvious statement, but we have personality a, who tend to get very stressed very quickly. They're the ones who are hyper and agitated and they're fast moving and they can't sit still. And they're more likely to get stressed than personality B, who take things in their stride. It speak more slowly, they're much more chilled, they're far less likely to become ill in the workplace. So again, it comes back to understanding. I've lost the thread of the question. Joanne Lockwood: Sorry, it was just the impact of the work you do. There's obviously a cost to sickness and absence in organisations. Do you have any off the top of your head stats on the number of days we're losing through stress or mental health related illness? Well, let's just say before Ruth Fogg: lockdown it was something like 12 billion pounds lost to stress, but per person it's 1035 pounds. So if, for example, you have a company that's got 20,000 workers, that's over 20,000 pounds that you're losing in stress related sickness absence. And of course, you've also got presenteeism. When people go to work when they shouldn't be really there, they're not well enough, but they're scared to go off sick in case they lose their job, but they're not working to their full potential, so that loses the company money as well. But the statistics show that for every pound invested in some form of stress management training, then it's a three pound return. So if a company has well being days or they have company yoga sessions or they do something, then happy people, happy places. If you're happy at work, you're going to be far more productive. If you feel valued and appreciated, your work is recognised and you're supported, then you're going to be far more productive if the opposite is in place, that you're abused verbally or physically and you're not happy and you don't enjoy your work. Not everyone can enjoy their work, but if you feel appreciated. Sorry, if you don't feel appreciated, you're not going to want to do it, you're not going to work or want to work hard. So it's a no brainer really, isn't it? It Joanne Lockwood: is a no brainer, yeah. And nobody on their deathbed Ruth Fogg: says, I wish I'd spent more time at work. Joanne Lockwood: For sure they don't. Yes, we'll all have those regrets of things we should have done and could have done, and staying late at work was not one of them. Yes, for sure. Well, thank you, Ruth. That's a great moment to finish on. I'm sure the listener, I'm sure there's one listener out there who's been following along with this, will agree there's much to ponder and take inspiration from. So how can our listeners get in touch with you? Well, bearing in Ruth Fogg: mind what I said about using the telephone, the best way is through email, which is Ruth@stressworx.co.uk. And stressworx is all one word with an x on the end it's not K s, it's Worx.co.uk. Please feel free to look at my website. There is free relaxation audio on there and also an explanation of how the mind works, so that might help your listeners to understand why they're perhaps stressed. Excellent. So Joanne Lockwood: get in touch with you, look at your website and maybe download the stress audio and destressing audio and just see if it'll help you relax. Brilliant. Well, thank you for listeners for tuning in and getting this far. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast that's bites. Please tell your friends, tell your colleagues, get them to subscribe and listen to I've got a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you will all be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And also remember, if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. And I always welcome feedback and suggestions to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Tell me about what you want to hear on future shows or how we can improve. So my name is Joanne Lockwood and it has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. I look forward to catch up with you next time. Bye.