--- title: "Allyship In Action" episode: 148 date: 2025-02-13 guest: "Julie Kratz" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/148-allyship-in-action audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-148/audio.mp3 --- # Allyship In Action Joanne Lockwood is joined by Julie Kratz to explore what “allyship in action” looks like when DEI faces backlash and misunderstanding. Julie shares how her own corporate experience led her to focus on belonging, psychological safety, and the day-to-day behaviours that shape whether people feel included at work. Together they unpack how performative allyship can replace real change, and why simplifying language matters when acronyms and jargon create fear, division, or defensiveness. The conversation argues for focusing on outcomes—fairness, trust, respect, and access—rather than getting stuck defending labels, and it highlights the value of calling people in (not calling them out) to create more productive dialogue. They also discuss the wider social and political context influencing workplace inclusion, including polarisation and power dynamics, and touch on how organisational leaders and brands can respond by staying aligned to mission and values. Listeners leave with a clearer, more practical framing for inclusion work: keep your radar up, notice unfairness, and take action that builds belonging over time. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Left corporate for entrepreneurship seeking purpose. - 03:47 — Founded Next Pivot Point to foster allyship. - 06:58 — 2020: BLM, MeToo, Covid, wellbeing initiatives, regression. - 11:29 — Power dynamics affect societal improvements and racial narratives. - 15:16 — "Handmaid's Tale reflects shocking societal direction." - 17:21 — Setting stage for deep conflict, potential revolution. - 22:40 — Helping others benefits everyone, improving societal contribution. - 23:22 — Ageing impacts abilities; infrastructure provides needed support. - 29:10 — McDonald's DEI strategy prioritises local franchise diversity. - 29:48 — Shift focus to positive narratives and action. - 34:07 — Promote inclusivity, self-development, competitive wages, internally. - 37:40 — Education gap affects understanding, inclusion support. - 42:10 — Humans evolved through cooperation and mutual support. - 42:51 — Helping others benefits the helper most deeply. - 47:25 — Understanding oneself is complex and personal. - 51:19 — Join Inclusion Bites, amplify voices, share stories. ## Key takeaways - The critical importance of focusing on inclusion and creating inclusive leadership rather than solely on diversity metrics. - Simplifying DEI language to terms like fairness and inclusion to make these concepts less intimidating and more universally understood. - Strategic commitments from companies like Warner and American Airlines to DEI, despite opposing shareholder views. - Structuring equitable systems that provide fair access rather than special rights, addressing ongoing challenges like pay equality. - The impact of political and legal environments on DEI terminology and how the essence of the work remains unchanged. - The role of perceived vulnerability in societal 'isms' and the importance of normalising help and support within organisations. - Positive examples of successful DEI strategies, such as Costco's internal talent promotion and competitive wages, fostering a committed and inclusive workplace. ## FAQs ### What is the core focus of this episode? This episode mainly discusses Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) concepts, specifically critiquing how these terms are utilised and understood in the workplace. The conversation explores actional allyship, the importance of inclusion over just diversity, and the evolution of language within the DEI discourse. ### Why is there opposition to DEI hiring among some shareholders? Julie Kratz mentions that some shareholders oppose DEI hiring, possibly due to misconceptions about its implications and benefits. Despite this opposition, companies like Warner and American Airlines continue to champion DEI commitments, aligning them with their core values. ### How important is focusing on inclusion in DEI work? Julie Kratz emphasises that while diversity is a fact, inclusion is actionable and trainable. She believes creating inclusive leadership and cultures is crucial to meaningful DEI efforts, as it ensures all employees feel valued and respected. ### What does the episode suggest about the future of DEI terminology? The episode discusses the likelihood of DEI terminology evolving due to political and legal shifts. However, the fundamental essence of DEI work—promoting fairness and inclusion—will remain the same, irrespective of terminological changes. ### What challenges do companies face regarding equity, particularly pay equality? Despite structural improvements in workplaces, equity issues such as pay equality persist. The episode highlights the need for more equitable systems that provide fair access to opportunities without conferring special rights. ### How can simplifying DEI language help reduce resistance? By using more universally understood terms like fairness and inclusion, rather than complex DEI jargon, companies can minimise fear and misunderstandings, making it easier to gain broader acceptance and support. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 148 with the title Allyship in Action and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Julie Kratz. Julie is an allyship and inclusion speaker, consultant and author who helps leaders foster workplace environments. She is a Forbes contributor and TEDx speaker and draws on her corporate experience to our organisations with actionable strategies for allyship and belonging. When I asked Julie to describe her superpower, she said it is her ability to transform allyship into actionable strategies that inspire inclusive leadership. Hello. Hello Julie. Welcome to the show. Julie Kratz: Thanks so much for having me, Joanne. Absolute pleasure. We just Joanne Lockwood: chatted away for probably half an hour in the green room and burnt a lot of time. A fascinating conversation. I can't wait to bring some of that into the conversation for our listeners today. So thank you for joining us. So Julie, you have been on a journey from corporate and you've pivoted to become a leading voice in allyship and inspiring others. So what sparked your passion for creating more inclusive workplaces? Julie Kratz: Great question. I So I spent 12 years in corporate before starting my own business nearly 10 years ago. So big year this year, 10th anniversary. I never really dreamed of being an entrepreneur, but it was out of the necessity of my own difficult time surviving in corporate America. So I'm here in the States and it's, you know, I'm sure similar in other parts of the world, but that sense of belonging, the sense of inclusion, having leaders I could trust and feel psychologically safe with, just didn't exist. And I continued to think it was me and I needed to change or it was the industry or if I get my mba, then things will be better. And no matter how hard I worked, I kept finding the same problem and Then it dawned on me when I had my daughter, I just couldn't leave her to go to a workplace and work that didn't. And this happens a lot to folks that are caregivers, men and women and non binary folks like it's you just realise your purpose of life is much deeper than a paycheck. And she was a year old. I'm the primary breadwinner and took a leap of faith that other people were having a similar challenge. I did and needed tools that I didn't have when I was a leader. And that's when next pivot point was born. And it became quite obvious to me in the first few years as I spent time in the community and talked with folks especially of different lived experience and identities from me that we needed allies. You know, us talking women, talking to each other about women's quote unquote issues which are societal issues isn't helpful. Um, it's therapeutic. It feels good, you know, to rant in the moment but it doesn't really evoke change. And so how do we engage allies in the conversation? It became quite clear to me that we needed to broaden the conversation. And so that's really my life's work. What I hope to leave the world with more allies in it than I found. I like that, I really like that because that, that, that sort Joanne Lockwood: of aligns with some of my ethos if you like. I, I get frustrated that I can't change the world. But what I came to realise was I can't change myself and I can change how I show up and I can show change how I influence those around me. So that's really the core of allyship really, isn't it? Isn't it just showing up and being the best you, you can be. Julie Kratz: Yeah, I think, I think that's the basic premise of allyship. The challenge is the works evolved and you know, we can look at the year 2020, right, and all the allies that came out. It was much more of a performance. What we would call performative allyship is oh, I posted, I bought the thing from the black owned business. I, you know, said me too is wrong. You know, just. That's great. We absolutely need that. However, we need people to do more than that. And it's a big ask if you think about it. I've been on my own journey for the last 10 years. I regretfully have not always been the best ally myself. I said and done things that were inappropriate. I have said things that were not helpful and luckily people have called me in on that. And instead of getting defensive, which is kind of easy to do, decided to use it as fuel to get better. And you know, I think, Joanne, we've asked people, it's a big ask, I think, for what it means to be an active ally. And that's where we're at now as we head into 2025. Right. Like thinking about the political polarisation, you know, especially in my country, I'm deeply concerned about our future. We need people in positions of power to share their power. And that, that is like a real conundrum. Right? Like, because if you have power, why do you want to share it? And we're seeing examples of people that they have power and they want more power. It's like, don't you have enough? Like at some point, don't you want to share? Just for context. So you're, Joanne Lockwood: you live right in the middle of middle America, Indiana, I think it says you, you're in. Yes. And you mentioned 2020 and looking back, I mean it seems like yesterday, but also so far, so far back in time. It was pre Covid, at the beginning we had George Floyd, which started the Black Lives Matter or reignited the Black Lives Matter. We had Harvey Weinstein and all those other cases around the MeToo which sparked that in the US and some incidents in the UK as well. And then we had a lockdown and that created this huge wellbeing vacuum where people, everybody was suffering in a, in a, in a different way for common cause. Corporate America, corporate uk, corporate Europe, corporate everywhere. We think, how are we going to look after our people? And suddenly we saw all of this well being initiatives, people caring about people suddenly because even the people with privilege were being impacted by Covid. So suddenly they got it. And here we are in 2025 and the world's gone backwards again, hasn't it? Julie Kratz: Yeah, it's like a step forward, two steps back. I just detest that analogy, but I think that's very keen to describe where we're at right now, that it evoked generosity and a shared experience and a humility and a vulnerability in all of us because all of us were deeply affected. There wasn't a single human on the planet, like an extreme isolationist that didn't feel it right. But now it's led to us being more isolated and xenophobic and wanting to control things and it's almost like a whip effect. And I don't know what's in the future, but I have to think the reason we're getting the backlash is because it's working. There wouldn't be a target on DEI if it wasn't achieving some success. You wouldn't bother with it. So it's a long game and I struggle with that because I am a very impatient person. Sometimes I think I just wasn't born at the right time. That I would have much more impact if we could be 20 years in the future where things would be better. But maybe now is the right time. This tumultuous turmoil that we're in, kind of getting used to it, you know, I would have been alarmed 10 years ago to see news stories we're seeing today. And now we're kind of desensitised, like, okay, yep, that's happening, sure, why not? But the silver lining to all of this is change is happening demographically. It's demographics in our country for younger generations are. They are what they are. My daughter's generation, my daughter's 10, it is majority non white. That is a fact. And they will be entering the workforce much like Gen Z did, with the expectation of a diverse and inclusive experience. So you can legislate around it. You can try to de. Knock. I don't even have indoctrin. The children were doing, they were not doing whatever you can try. But it's happening and it's going to continue to happen. And so we just have to keep. For me it's like keep that long view. 10, 20 years from now is probably the work that we're doing now will manifest much later. Is that as you mentioned, Joanne Lockwood: that I'm sort of pondering in my head, is that, is that what's going on? Is it that the fact that the people in power, people have the privilege are becoming the minority and they're almost like having to hack themselves in their own little communes or I would in the UK world, I'd say in their castle. I'm pretty sure in America you don't have so many castles. But I'm thinking about their in their old Norman Roman castles and putting the drawbridge up, hiding and saying, look, hang on a minute. If we stay in our castle and fight everybody off, we'll keep our power and privilege against the marauders and the unwashed. And the difference is that what's going on? Are people scared that they're losing their right to govern, if you like. Yeah, I think that's exactly Julie Kratz: it. There's a few falsehoods at play on the concept of the zero sum game. This is a big problem we have in capitalist societies where they're very much I win, you lose. I mean, we're taught that from a young age playing games. I hate losing and someone else winning doesn't mean I lose. Like generally speaking, when we make things better for the most marginalised, we make them better for everyone. Right. There's the curb cut effect for just disabled people like cut curbs. It made it easier for me as a walker, a runner, a stroller person, a bike rider. So it's, it's this zero sum game that we really have to cheque people on. How is making things better for someone else costing us? What is it costing us? And if you're in a position of power, I think is a really good gut cheque. I also think there is this last stand kind of narrative and I honestly thought we got that over with first Trump presidency, but apparently there's more ammo ready to come out. Not to use a violent analogy, but let's be honest, I mean it is, it does feel like to be white, for example. I think in, especially in America where we have not addressed our racial past, it is barely taught in schools, it is very much like slavery happened. We're good. Move on with your life. When you don't acknowledge our problematic history, you're much more likely to repeat it. We know that's why we teach history. And so this whole. I have to take the. I need to hold on to the power as long as I can possibly hold on to that. And if that, I think in our country is whiteness, those are the people in power. 70 plus percent of C suite leaders, Congress, you know, you just look at any body of power and this is really worldwide, but especially in our country is white and that doesn't reflect the diversity of the population. And I think too one last hypothesis is I think they're worried that there's going to be some revenge when the people you've kept down start to come up. Yeah, kind of like you think about revolutions in Europe. I mean they're setting the conditions for that to happen right now and I don't want to be a doomsday, but you can't keep people down for so long before they don't revolt or resist. It kind of happened in South Africa when Joanne Lockwood: the white minority rule came to an end and the black majority took over. The black population repossessed the white farms, the white people became marginalised or correctly marginalised. The country was reset and there's that active purging of the white population out of positions of power in organisations and land seizures and everything. I guess there is a track record here of what happens when the, the tide flips and so, yeah, I mean there's. Was it. Quoting US politics is probably not my strong point, but was it JFK said a rising tide floats all boats the same or something? Yeah, Julie Kratz: that was. But that analogy is so, so true. Joanne Lockwood: That was a 1960s thing and I think we've, we've forgotten that. I, Richard Nixon, if I remember correctly, was trying to. Before he was taken out of power, he was trying to get universal basic income. And if he'd have carried on with his presidency, it may well be that US implemented UBI in some shape or form. And those were radical policies to create inclusive environments and recognising the population, it's way ahead of its time. And now we've got Roe versus Wade being overturned and other things. In the us permanent action is probably. Going to be gay marriage next. I'm not even going to be surprised. Julie Kratz: Right. Tale though, isn't it, Joanne Lockwood: where they suddenly you're in a, you're in a same sex relationship and the next day you're not. Right. You're not married, not married anymore. You lose all your benefits, lose your rights and everything. You can't, can't fly on that passport. Trans people, they can't drive anymore in Florida because their past, their driving licence has suddenly been revoked. Julie Kratz: Yep. Yeah, got it right, Joanne Lockwood: didn't she? Yeah. In the 1990s, I was like, wow, how did you see that? Julie Kratz: Yeah, that's one of the disturbing shows that I allow myself to watch because I have to be very mindful about doing inclusion work day in, day out, 40, 50 hours a week is, as you know, it's a lot, it's very taxing, mentally hard on our health. And Handmaid's Tale is one of my ones that I can get into for some reason because I think it's like, are we headed in this direction? And that was my first thought on November 6th when I woke up to the news. I was one completely shocked. And that just speaks to like the echo chambers we have here. I had no idea 51% of our country felt that way. I just didn't, I didn't think it was possible. In my home state, we overwhelmingly voted for him. In my county, luckily we went the other direction. So we're just all in our own spaces talking to each other and not talking to the other groups. And this is how you get something like the Handmaid's Tale. This is how you get a reversal of rights when you see each other. As the Joanne Lockwood: enemy and dividing is finding those probar and Those differences between you out. So suddenly you're polarising women, you're polarising Hispanic and black people, you polarising this. They go for him. Yeah, Julie Kratz: hold your country's trash and you're rapists and you voted for him. Like I, part of me wants to be like, you deserve this, like, you voted for this. See what happens. And that's spiteful and mean. But that was my reaction for the first few weeks. And as I've, you know, now two months later, kind of marinated on it, it's, it's gonna be okay. The conditions, what's, what's interesting here in the States and I know we have a ripple effect across the world and luckily in the uk, where you're at, hopefully you're on the other side of this. So hopeful for y'all, but where we're at, we're still here wrestling with this is he's setting up the conditions for, at a minimum, a deep resistance movement, if not a revolution. And I don't use those words lightly. I don't think we're like civil war, but we're really marching up to something that's going to be a very deep conflict. And we know from the first presidency MeToo happened his first year. I don't think that's a coincidence when you have a known rapist and sexual harasser in office. And like you said, Black Lives Matter reignited. Granted, pandemic, George Floyd was fuel. But would that still have happened if Biden or somebody say, reasonable, but somebody that's not, you know. Yeah, racist Joanne Lockwood: was in office? Maybe, maybe, maybe not Julie Kratz: so. And most of the people in my profession are like, let's give it six months, let's see what happens. I don't think people are going to take this. I just don't. 49%, 50% of us, whatever it is, like, we're not going to take it. Joanne Lockwood: It's got Senate, it's got Congress, it's got everything, aren't they? I mean, there's no legislative sort of boundaries now Supreme Court, who's going to say no? Who's going to the military? Julie Kratz: Right. Well, and that's another thing he wants to use. I mean, the slim margin in the House. Right. And not all Republicans are Trumpers. Right. So, like that the House has one vote to lose. So I, I doubt. And that, that's really a two year thing. So we'll have the two year elections, the midterms in what, 20, 26. So there's really two years to get things through. And even that's Going to be slim slum margins. I don't want to be dismissive of what's at stake here. I love my country and it's disturbing. The one thing we did learn from separating from English power is to not let change happen quickly. So our founding fathers, as problematic as they were, did bake into our systems that you can't change things very swiftly. So change takes forever here. So this might be the part that's like a good thing. Joanne Lockwood: The Constitution is so difficult, isn't it? Apparently it's so difficult you Julie Kratz: can't add an amendment. I mean, we can't even get the Equal Rights Amendment amendment passed from the 70s for women. Like, that's just bonkers. It's not going to happen. Like, it, it takes so much to get a majority in the Senate or the House. So what can he do, though? Executive orders. So I, I think if you're an immigrant in this country, especially one that's not fully legalised, there's some deep. I'd be very deeply concerned if I were you and I empathise deeply. I love immigrants. Every immigrant I've ever interacted with has been a very positive experience. So I have no idea. People are fearful and we have a labour shortage. Like, what are we, what are we doing here? Like, these are great workers for our economy. I don't, I don't understand that narrative. But what he is very good at doing is creating fear of the other. And the other could be black people, brown people, women, trans people, gay people. It's just you're the other. And if you're not, you know, the fit in that bell curve, like you said, the. And like, if you don't fit into this, like, prototypical type of, like, who's in power, white, straight, cis, able bodied man, then you're the other. The problem with that is, is that's a very slim part of our population. So you've got like, let's throw out numbers here, but I would guess 60, 70% of people that don't fall into that box that aren't going to put up with this. So we'll see. We'll see. What I do love about my country is we love a good social movement and we will get one going here. So I have faithfully chosen the word resistance for this year. I can't wait. I will not be starting a resistance movement, but if anyone wants to, please email me. I'll do everything to support you. I just don't want to be that person. Yeah, maybe. Rosa, the term resistance Joanne Lockwood: implies a struggle, a Fight or something. Maybe friction slow things down, create. Put sand in the ointment to grit things up a bit, to create noise and to create great thinking is. I think it's what we're about as DEI practitioners, isn't it really? It's about stopping, pausing, thinking, reflecting, considering the needs of all, not just the needs of the one. It's a bit like Spock on Touch the needs of the one. Many outrage the needs of the one, isn't it? It's trying to go back to that kind of altruistic view of the world. Julie Kratz: And I think it just an understanding of what. What doesn't benefit me can benefit me, if that makes sense. Like providing, like you said, like universal health care. Like we know everyone was fighting Obamacare back at. You know, I myself wasn't a huge fan of it initially. Now, as a small business owner with a family to support, I am so thankful I have that and that that's not going away. He tried the first. It's not going to go away. So when we provide for other people, we provide for ourselves. Like you don't have to. I didn't have to even like individually benefit from that to recognise it's helping other people, it's helping our systems be better to provide care and have support mechanisms for people because if they feel supported then they're going to be able to contribute more to society and that benefits all of us. Somehow that utilitarianism like that has been lost that narrative and I don't know how to change people's thinking or not even change to shift people's thinking. Like you said, it's just like these little nudges. That's what I'm personally struggling with in the work right now. The people that we need to care. Don'T seem to care, like we said, Joanne Lockwood: about providing things for others that don't necessarily seem to benefit us. Right now I'm a week away from being 60 and I benefit from lifts and escalators and eyesight. My hearing is not as good as it was, I'm not as able, my hips don't work as they used to and all this kind of thing. So I do like a good travelator from time to time. You know, I can't carry my luggage all the stairs anymore. I'm not 25. So I'm now benefiting from the infrastructure that society has put in place for people who need it from a disability point of view, because I'm getting to the point where I'm now less. Describe myself as less able, less Capable due to age. So we'll go skiing and break a leg. Suddenly you are in need of support and healthcare and access. So it happens to us all. Julie Kratz: On ageism is the biggest ism of them all. We're, we're fearful of our own mortality because the likelihood of you becoming disabled at some point in your life is extremely high. Like it's almost inevitable. And so you're pointing that out. We don't want to think about that because it's, it's too scary to fathom, like our own vulnerability. And I think that's the heart of all the isms. We're too afraid of accepting that it somehow challenges our own virtues or our own self image. And that's deep stuff, you know, I don't know, I reflect on my own journey and I don't know how it shifted for me, but I often think like once you have that epiphany or eye opening moment, you can't unsee it. I'm also curious, you know the people that watch the George Floyd video, right. Because we were stuck at home and you see this video and it's. I never watched it so I, I couldn't have. You watched that eight minute video. Something moved inside you. Some of it obviously blurred Joanne Lockwood: out sort of the actual foot on the neck face bit. But yeah, yeah, the eye can't breathe. Already at that Julie Kratz: point. And when my husband showed it to me, I was pregnant, he put it in my face. I was like, I can't, I cannot watch that. And I was like, this happens all the time. Why do people care now? And that's, that's where we're at again. It's like what catalytic moment do we need? Like what does it take to get people's attention? I'm deeply curious about that. I don't know if you can manufacture it or plan for it. I think it's a spontaneous thing that happens just at the right time. So that's why I'm kind of thankful that he's around. I just hate saying his name. Hopefully listeners, you know what I'm talking about. It Joanne Lockwood: brings January 6th, Capitol Hill. @ the end of his last term that turned into a kind of a revolution, but nothing ever came of it. Locked a few people up who are going to be released in a few weeks time. No doubt they could be given pardons. And you're coming, you're giving a licence for people to bear arms. Julie Kratz: Yeah. And I mean you don't even have to look in our news cycle here in the US very often see the New Orleans terrorist attack or whatever we're calling it. You know, the cyber truck exploding or the Tesla. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: yeah, yeah. Taking matters into their own hands, it's like Julie Kratz: vigilanteism is just. I mean, hey, if you want guns in people's hands, be prepared for the consequences, which I don't love. But we're just so desensitised to all of these things, it doesn't even faze me anymore. The school shootings still get me. Because that's just extremely unacceptable for young people. It's crazy. It's crazy. Joanne Lockwood: As a Brit, you look at it and think the zero sum game is that if people carry guns, I have to carry a gun. What we need is more guns to scare more people. So if I, if I don't have a gun, I'm more likely to get shot. I just can't see that game winning. The bigger the gun. Everyone has a bigger gun. And at what point do you stop? Apparently semi automatic rifles or automatic rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers are kind of American rights to bear arms apparently. Yeah, I don't see that one Julie Kratz: changing. There's just too much, too much angst and money. Joanne Lockwood: Too much money. The NRA and all this sort of stuff has got politicians. It's like the fossil fuel, petroleum oil, it's all too ingrained. Which is why climate change is being poo pooed. Because there's no money in climate change at the moment. Because the people making batteries are the Chinese, not the Americans. Right, yeah, that's the Julie Kratz: whole thing too. Yeah. You look at again what's happening in LA right now. The city, I feel people. But a fire has never approached the city in this way before. And if climate change not real, then what the heck's happening? You know, it's, it's interesting the to me what we choose to accept, that's just like. Yeah, that's just the way it is. Kids getting shot up at a school, cities being burned down. Okay, that's just, Joanne Lockwood: that's desensitised. Don't you. It doesn't shock anymore. Is that the issue? Yeah. Oh totally. And I think Julie Kratz: you know, to our DEI work, that's a big problem we have right now. The news cycle is these headlines. It's a clickbaity negativity bias on amped up human brain is wired to pay attention to negative things more than positive things for our survival. Right. We had to scan the environment. Sabre Tooth Tiger, you better be paying attention. Obviously today that's not the same. But who are the predators? What is the scare tactic? And these headlines, even positive stories. So at the time we're recording, McDonald's tracked on DEI, right? And I have people telling me this, like, that's actually true. If you look at what they did, they put things back in the franchise's hands, which. That makes sense, that the franchises should be reflecting their local communities that are probably very diverse and distinct. And they're still supporting their employee resource groups or affinity groups. They're still supporting a lot of the criteria. They just backing out of a couple things. Everyone does that in any strategy, DEI or any competitive advantage strategy. You don't keep it forever, you shift it. And so what if we shift the language to inclusion, belonging, culture, I don't care, call it whatever you want, just do the work. And we're so busy defending the work that we're not doing the work that's on purpose. Like, that is an intentional strategy that's being used against us. And I just, after two years of enduring this perceived backlash, had my second best year out of 10 last year as a DEI business owner, just refused to play into this narrative. So one of the things I'm personally doing is I have a lot of PR people that contact me because they want to be on my podcast, my Forbes column, which is great, it's interesting to me, but they like to pitch negative stories. And I just started writing back, I'll take positive stories, please. And you know what it's changed is they started saying, like, I'll work on that, thank you for that feedback. Like, well, maybe they'll do that with other people too, you know, like, I think we need to push back on the pushback. I'm sick of playing defence, I want to play some offence. I find myself doing that with my LinkedIn post. I did a Joanne Lockwood: poll end of last year, it said, DEI must die, yes or no. And it had the most engagement I've had on a post in many, many years. Because people really polarised around, yeah, dei's had its day. It's all this, it's all that, and everyone's going, no, no, no. And some people thought I was just rearranging the words. I was obviously d, I must die. But it is a play on words. But, yeah, you got the most. And just there was this polarisation occurred and it was. We used negative hooks. You say the headlines, people don't read the article, they read the headline and use their confirmation bias and their beliefs to extrapolate what that means without reading the detail. And it's the tactic of the media to get the clicks to get the shock, to get the awe. Totally. And it's working Julie Kratz: and we're letting it work, all of us. You know, if I look through my LinkedIn feed for a pulse, it's the only social media I allow myself to consume anymore for my mental health. It's still quite toxic. You know, people actively commenting, you know, it's like, why are you following me if you don't want inclusion? Like, stop following me. That's on you. That's, that's, that's actually my superpower Joanne Lockwood: is because I'm, I'm not, I don't hide that I'm a trans woman. I polarise people. Therefore the people who I polarise, they don't want to talk to me, they just never contact me. I just don't get anyone phone me up. So the people who phone me are the people who want to talk to me and are interested. So I think it's a great marketing tactic. It's, it's beautiful. I don't know if you have Marmite in the us. It's like a Vegemite type, really, kind of yeast extract and it's quite a sharp, strong taste. And Marmite is known for being, you love it or you hate it. So we want to. In the same way that the headlines you're saying are polarising negatively, actually speaking up as a DEI practitioner, saying, this is my values, this is who I am, and encouraging businesses to do the same. You polarise and create your brand as inclusive. Your brand is this. That way you, you attract the people. And I. Was it Dylan Mulvaney and was it Bud Light and people like that? Oh, right, there's all this campaign and these other, the bra manufacturers that engaged Dylan Mulvaney as well. And, and all this kind of all this shock horror about, oh, you can't do that. And suddenly Budweiser sales went down and everyone's going, oh, look, this is what happens if you support these woke causes. And it's like, these headlines aren't true. You know, this, this is, it's just myths. Exactly how they handled it so poorly that led to that Julie Kratz: decline. That was the problem. Yeah. Nothing to do with Dylan. Had everything to do with the poor management of it. Like, if they should have held the Joanne Lockwood: rope, they should have stood. Stood their ground and should have said, we're positive about this. Yeah. So what if you lose a few customers? Are those Julie Kratz: customers you want? They can stay. They probably lost the customers because they threw Joanne Lockwood: people under the bus. They, they, they banktracked. If they just stayed states, everybody yeah, right. Yeah. So I think, Julie Kratz: I think that's a great example and I also think some great case studies that have come up as of late, again, more here in the States, but globally, like Costco is one of our like warehouse brands, if you're familiar with that. Joanne? Yeah, yeah, we have Costco over here. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Okay, cool. No one's perfect, but they're pretty. Julie Kratz: Inclusion is like a part of their strategy. And I was, it was so interesting. I was reading a New York Times article on them in like mid December about how they, they're all about developing their talent from within. So you start as an hourly worker and they pay a very competitive wage and the 20 something dollars, which is a very good wage here for hourly workers. And then they self promote through and they treat their people really well and they have an intentional strategy around inclusion and diversity and their hiring and promotion processes. Great. Nothing controversial. There's. Well then their shareholders come up with like, I don't want any more of this DEI hiring, which I don't even know what DEI hiring is to be. I'm not familiar. I don't know what it is Joanne Lockwood: either. No. So like setting goals. I don't know, Julie Kratz: debiasing the process, like. Anyway, you're for a fair Joanne Lockwood: chance, apparently. Warner unanimously said, no, thank you. Julie Kratz: We will be moving forward as planned. This is a part of our strategy and who we are. It's aligned with our mission, our vision and our values, full stop. American Airlines just did the same thing. So suddenly we start to see the tides changing. Not to use like a metaphor, but like something's shifting and is it coincidental that it's happening at the same time in our political environment? Shifting. So, you know, to kind of full circle on the silver lining we were talking about at the beginning. I think, I think dei, if I had a crystal ball and some predictions, you're probably not going to call it DEI anymore, especially here where it might be illegal. I think you already pushed through an executive order. Not that you can't do DEI training if you work with the government. So, okay, we don't call it DEI anymore. It does not change the work. And as practitioners, I think we really need. I'm urging my clients and other practitioners, let's not be so worried about the words we use. We've only been calling a DEI for like the last five years. Is it that big of a deal to shift to a. What does it really mean? As, as you said just now, what is diversity? It's, it's a fact. You can't train People on diversity. It's just happening. It's just a fact. It is, it just is. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: yeah. Inclusion, you can train people on. And I, Julie Kratz: if I were to really think about what I do for a living, that's what I do, is inclusive, train inclusive, more leadership training. But inclusion training, culture, work, belongingness, well. Being, psychological safety, all this kind Joanne Lockwood: of stuff. Yeah, you're really never doing the E. And I know the E is Julie Kratz: really important and the systems have to change along with individual behaviour. But let's be honest, companies aren't doing a crappy job at equity. We can't even get pay equity. So. No, Joanne Lockwood: that's a lot is recognising someone who's neurodiverse, autistic, has a disability, needs a little bit extra help. And we do that for our kids in college and schools. This person's got dyslexia. We need to give them special dispensation in exams or give them something to help with screen readers, whatever. Our phones, our laptops, our computers have little red squiggly lines under spelling mistakes now and they can read stuff out. So equity is being built into our infrastructure anyway, so we're a lot more equitable in the systems we have. And that's what we're doing is making sure that people can access fairly. That's equity. Not giving people any special rights. It's just floating the boats, I think. Where we lose people. And Julie Kratz: let's be honest, I mean, we know this, there's research on this. This is a fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support inclusion, at least in our country. So there's an education gap. And when you use acronyms and you use words like equity that people don't understand, just it's not an obvious word word we use very often when you use words that people don't understand in acronyms, it creates fear. You're talking down to me, making me feel like I don't know something and that's not a good starting place. So ditching acronyms, focusing on inclusion, I'm okay with it. Honestly, Absolutely. Please don't mishear me on this. Like, it does not change the work I do at all. But if the label, the packaging needs to shift to make it more palatable and acceptable for folks and legal, like country. Okay, let's just do it and get it over with. I'm sick of talking about. I'm not a Joanne Lockwood: fan of D I, D and I D I B D I J, whatever acronym you like, because it's all about buzzwords and input. I want to talk about the outcomes. What do we look? What's the outcome we're trying to achieve fairness, a respect environments where people can thrive, people feel safe, they got trust in the process. They feel if they work hard and try hard and do the right things, they're going to succeed. It's not overcoming this bullshit BS of meritocracy and this belief that the dice and the bases are loaded. We got to. That's where equity comes in, where we're offsetting privilege and natural fairness. That's, that's a synonym to equity. I mean Julie Kratz: there's more to equity, but fairness is a quintessential part of equity. It's interesting that you brought that up, Joanne, because there's a thought leader, probably the most prolific thought leader I follow in the DE currently as we call it the DEI space. Lily Zhang. Yeah, follow them as well. They just posted about their new book and it appears to be a fairness title. So I was really intrigued by that because for two reasons. One, personally I went through psychological safety certification a year ago and they make you do this values assessment. I don't make you, but you have to as part of the certification. And off the charts, I am like off the charts with fairness. Like fairness is something. If it is not fair, I don't feel psychologically safe. Wife didn't survive in corporate America. Right. Like makes sense but they're underlying. Most humans are wired for fairness. You give a kid, two kids, different slices of pie, they're like, that's not fair. I didn't get the same amount. We are wired to appreciate fairness and to want to share and things to be fair. So what if we pivoted to fairness? Come at me. Just like inclusion. What you want exclusion, Come at me. I will defend that all day long. The tricky spot I'm in with dei, it's a little harder to, it's much harder to defend, to be honest because I have to first explain to you what it means, which that's a huge problem. So now I have to explain to you what it means. So now I've made you feel like you, I know something you don't know and I'm somehow better than you because I know that, which is not the way we want to approach this. And then you have to get people to understand how to do it. This multi step process, if we just said fairness, inclusion, it really shortcuts all of that. And like either you want things that are fair and inclusive or you don't. If you don't I can't help you. Problem solved. I just want to believe that I can Joanne Lockwood: succeed on my own merit. That's what I want to know. And if I need some help, I can ask for it and I'll be given it. That's, that's, that's what it's all about, really. And if I don't need the help, I don't get upset because somebody else gets the help. That's, that's really what we're trying to do here. And whether that's in the hiring process, the employee experience, stakeholder, the customer, whatever, wherever you are in the system and the queue, you just want to, you don't want to have trust. Trust and fairness, it's gotta be there. You can say you're fair, but if I don't trust your fairness. So it's building trust. And that's about brand, it's about values. So all those good things about that alignment, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I appreciate they use the Julie Kratz: word help. Really interesting. This is probably more of an American thing. We don't like to ask for help. That's being weak. Right. But what's interesting about human beings as a whole is we're a social species. We don't survive on our own. We would have never gotten to this point of evolution if we didn't have each other in groups or tribes or whatever you want to call them. Only the last 10% of our human history have we not been hunting and gathering. Right. So it's is this whole idea of, like, we had to one, to survive, prove that we were helpful to the group so the group would want to keep us, so we stayed safe, and we had to be willing to accept help from others so other people could feel helpful. This is a deeply primal human need. That's what allyship is all about, is being helpful. The research on it shows just like mentorship, it's not the mentee that really benefits, it's the mentor. It's the ally that benefits, not the person that's being allied. Of course they benefit by, you know, disrupting barriers or making introductions or whatever you're doing. But the act of helping someone and feeling helpful is deeply fulfilling. And so if we created conditions where people could ask for help and people could provide help, we would all be better. But we have all these, like, weird barriers around it, like these psychological triggers around it. And I'll be honest with you, as someone that teaches allyship, we usually teach what we don't, what we need, ourselves. I hate asking for help. I Hate it. It's very vulnerable. And so it's just an interesting space that we're in. We have to, like you said, be willing to ask for help and accept it. Something I Joanne Lockwood: learned, you know, I. I gender transitioned effectively 8, 9, 10 years ago, and I spent most of my life being invincible. Being privileged, not feeling I needed as a man. Yeah. Not feeling I needed anything as a white man, as a perceived straight white man. And what I learned very quickly as a woman is that I am inherently more vulnerable. As a trans woman, I'm even more vulnerable. And so I decided to rather reject that. I lent into it and I embraced that vulnerability and I thought I'm more. I'm more open to share about what. Julie Kratz: What. What makes me happy, what makes me sad when I'm feeling Joanne Lockwood: worried. I'm more willing to reach out to people now than I ever was before because I haven't been. Having spent most of my life invincible, now I'm not. I realise actually I need help. I don't have that huge network of protection anymore. So I have to ask people and lean into people when it's there. Especially when you're in a place that's not Julie Kratz: safe for you. Like, you need allies around you, not that you don't. I think without trying to play Joanne Lockwood: a stereotype here, I think that women are inherently more collaborative than men. That's. I've really embraced that side of it, where certainly in DEI or diversity work, or the work we're both in, it's not a competitive sport. We all want everybody to win and succeed. So it's an inherently more collaborative network of people I'm part of. So the collaboration, the helping, the working on each other resonated with that more. So I'm more willing to, as I say, open myself up, be vulnerable and ask for help than I ever have been in my past life. That's really. It's a really interesting Julie Kratz: window, right, that you can see this. Different sides of gender expression and identity and how that manifests and how people treat you differently. And there is a piece of collaboration. I mean, I think when you're not in power, you know, you have to collaborate. You know, you can't get things the same way you could if you have the power. And so historically, marginalised groups just learn to pair up and collaborate. And that's funny. I was just reflecting on this with my peer group this morning is being a woman. I'm so thankful I was born a woman, I really am. And I don't mean that, that I don't like men. I just personally love collaborating and I love talking about my emotions and having deep relationships without the scoffing of I'm whatever. I am so thankful, so thankful for that. I hear Joanne Lockwood: you, I hear you. I've discovered this, I've discovered this. This, this is the authentic person inside me reaching out and going, where's this been all my life? This is just my natural way of being. It was never there before. It was just didn't see it. It was all masks by the, the hormones, the testosterone and everything else that was masking it up with maleness, if you like, covering all this inner self that screaming to get out. Really. Julie Kratz: Yeah. What an interesting perspective. When I think about the most marginalised people and not that this is a competition, but when you think about trans people, just the rates of violence, the rates of oppression, the rates of hate, it's extremely high for the trans community and I really feel such deep empathy. I also understand the fear that straight cisgender people have about it because they don't understand it. And you and I were talking in the green room about this. You're like, I don't understand it either. You don't have to understand it fully to be supportive. Lean in. It's okay as, as we were saying, as I said before, Joanne Lockwood: just to contextualise it for people listening, it's. I don't understand what it's like to be trans masculine. I don't understand what it's like to be non binary. I don't understand, but I understand. In fact, I don't even understand me why or how or what it is. I just know that who I am makes sense to me and I can't explain it to you or anybody else other than. It's like, it's like trying to imagine a four dimensional object in three dimensional space. I can't explain that fourth dimension, but I can explain the shadow. I can explain how it is likely to manifest itself, but not actually draw a picture of it. And it's, it's that really, it's trying to explain something, a point of reference that I don't have other than I am. And it's a strange, it's a strange thing. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just like a human Julie Kratz: condition to want to know why, like how did that happen? I mean, kids do this. I learned so much from my kids about curiosity and the thing about really all the dimensions of difference that you don't have a lived experience or a personal identity connecting to. You don't have to fully understand it. You're not going to. Right. Like, it's not your lived experience. So how. I can't walk around in brown or black skin to understand how racism really manifests. You can see it from my whiteness and know that it's wrong. And that's, that's enough. That's. That's okay. Pay attention. The one piece of advice I always give people that want to be better allies is just keep your radar up. Pay attention. Like, look for unfairness, look for injustice and say something when you see it. And it doesn't have to be this bold proclamation of you're a racist or a sexist. Say, hey, what you mean you said that? Like, I don't understand why that's funny. Or hey, have you ever thought about it this way? Or I used to think that too. Like, there's really easy ways to call people in without shame and blame. So just for anyone listening, calling it in is. Calling it out is very Joanne Lockwood: much a big hands in the air, stop, shout, do not do that shaming. Almost calling it out. Calling it in is. It's the education side. It's the, the persuasiveness. It's the explaining a better way. And people get defensive if they called out because they feel shame, they feel confusion where we call in, we invite people into the conversation and it's more productive. Julie Kratz: Yep. Yeah. And a great thought leader in that space is Loretta Ross. She has a TED Talk and a new book out on calling in comes out in February. Listeners. So I'm, I'm excited about that. But major difference and I think another course correction that's desperately needed in our work. Yeah, I agree. Too many activists Joanne Lockwood: getting angry and not enough people sitting around the table on the centre ground enlightening and having productive conversations like we're having today, which is fantastic. Julie. We've been yakking on now for nearly an hour and a half. We burnt some of our allocated time up in the green room before we started recording, which is a lesson to learn for next time. So it's absolutely fascinating. How do people get hold of you for you? You've got some inspiration here. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for such a delightful, Julie Kratz: refreshing conversation. This was really. I'm excited to share this one. So I have a Forbes column I post a couple times a week if you're interested, have ideas, people I should interview. Always happy to take suggestions there. I love Hot Topics, so cheque me out on Forbes. You know Forbes and Julie Kratz K-R-A-T-Z. You can find me easily and nextpivotpoint.com so nextpivotpoint.com tonnes of free resources. We way too much content there. So dig in. You can contact me through the website. Has all the info there. That's Joanne Lockwood: it. And well, I'll be making a pitch to be on your podcast and we can have have another conversation and you're invited. Already Julie Kratz: invited. We'll just find the time. Can't wait. Can't wait. So thank Joanne Lockwood: you so much and it's been an absolute pleasure and I'm almost sad that the conversation's ending, but you have to rush to another meeting. So, yeah, let's call it quits. Thank you, Julie. Part 2 Part Julie Kratz: 2 Be Continued Listeners. As we bring Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.