---
title: "Creating Inclusive Work Environments for People with Intellectual Disabilities"
episode: 146
date: 2025-02-06
guest: "Dominique Dehaene"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/146-championing-inclusion-through-sport
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-146/audio.mp3
---

# Creating Inclusive Work Environments for People with Intellectual Disabilities

Joanne Lockwood speaks with Dominique Dehaene, National Director of Special Olympics Belgium, about how sport can be a practical gateway to fuller inclusion for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities (IDD). Dominique explains what is meant by IDD and why Special Olympics focuses on talent, opportunity, and competition rather than pity or lowered expectations. They explore how unified sport can build confidence, communication, and social connection, and how those gains can carry into everyday life, including education and employment. The conversation also challenges common assumptions about capability, addresses the fear many people feel about “getting inclusion wrong,” and argues for learning through good intent, accountability, and trying again. Dominique brings personal perspective as a father of a son with autism, sharing what openness, support networks, and purpose can look like in practice. They also discuss health inequities for people with IDD and how targeted screening and better professional training can remove barriers. The episode closes with a call to create environments where people with IDD are treated as full participants in communities, workplaces, and society.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 02:00 — Promote inclusivity through sports for intellectual disabilities.
- 06:15 — Father reflects on raising autistic son, perspectives.
- 08:18 — Explore personal limits and embrace openness.
- 11:20 — Special Olympics: Competition, not participation; medals earned.
- 15:38 — Our volunteers embraced inclusivity at national games.
- 19:02 — Son with IDD finds purpose at work.
- 22:33 — Sports enhances life quality and societal integration.
- 27:25 — Engineers overthink; air traffic controllers use intuition.
- 28:37 — Overthinking prevents positive experiences; embrace fear.
- 33:09 — Planning future care for adult IDD children.
- 35:24 — UK social care for Down's syndrome improved.
- 38:56 — Specialised care and inclusion essential for IDD.
- 42:38 — Son embraces autism as part of identity.
- 47:36 — Strive for personal best, embrace inclusivity, acceptance.
- 50:12 — Skill level gap affects game enjoyment significantly.
- 52:48 — Invite to discuss anorexia in future episode.
- 55:05 — Joanne Lockwood promises inspiring, inclusive narratives.

## Key takeaways

- Understanding and overcoming employment challenges for individuals with IDD through positive mindsets and practical solutions.
- The success of a local social enterprise cafe that focuses on purpose and productivity rather than benevolence.
- The transformative impact of sports on individuals with IDD, boosting confidence and fostering social and professional development.
- Shifting societal perceptions through initiatives like "play unified" in schools, promoting equity and shared activities.
- The significance of inclusivity and fostering environments where individuals with IDD are treated equitably in all life aspects.
- Balancing ambition with appreciation, recognising and celebrating achievements to promote personal growth.
- Adopting a flexible approach to problem-solving, maintaining good intent, accountability, and viewing mistakes as learning opportunities.

## FAQs

### Why do companies remain hesitant to hire individuals with Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities (IDD)?

Companies often hesitate to hire individuals with IDD due to perceived challenges and biases. There is a misconception that these employees may require excessive accommodations or may not perform as well as their nondisabled peers. However, as discussed in the podcast, these challenges can be overcome with a positive mindset and appropriate support systems. Successful cases, like the social enterprise cafe employing individuals with IDD, reveal that such businesses can thrive while focusing on purpose and productivity.

### How does the social enterprise cafe illustrate successful inclusivity for individuals with IDD?

The social enterprise cafe, mentioned by Dominique Dehaene, serves as an excellent example of inclusivity in business. It employs individuals with IDD and demonstrates that they can run successful business operations. This enterprise places emphasis on productivity and purpose, showcasing that inclusivity is not merely an act of benevolence but a viable business model.

### Can you share an example of an individual's personal journey with IDD from the podcast?

Dominique Dehaene shared the story of his son, who recently graduated and is seeking employment. Despite facing social anxiety, his son is able to manage stress and communicate effectively with his supervisor. This personal narrative highlights the everyday challenges and triumphs of individuals with IDD, underscoring the potential for successful employment and personal growth.

### What role does sport play in the inclusion of individuals with IDD?

Sport plays a transformative role by providing individuals with IDD opportunities for social, physical, and professional development. It boosts confidence, fosters teamwork, and offers a sense of accomplishment. Initiatives like "play unified" encourage individuals with and without IDD to participate together, promoting equality and understanding.

### How do initiatives like "play unified" help change perceptions about individuals with IDD?

"Play unified" initiatives in schools and communities help in altering perceptions by demonstrating that individuals with IDD can participate in activities on an equal footing with their peers. By showcasing shared talents and achievements, these initiatives promote inclusivity and challenge outdated stereotypes.

### What is divisioning at the Special Olympics, and why is it important?

Divisioning at the Special Olympics involves grouping athletes based on their ability levels, ensuring fair and competitive participation. This system ensures that every athlete competes against those of similar capabilities, promoting a sense of fairness and inclusivity in sports.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 146 with the title, championing inclusion through sport. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Dominique Dehaene. Dominique is the national director of Special Olympics Belgium and a devoted father, and he is on a special mission to promote the social inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities. And when I asked Dominique to describe his superpower, he said, turning passion into purpose by driving inclusion, awareness, and opportunity for people with intellectual disabilities. Hello, Dominique. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having

Dominique Dehaene: me. How did I get on with your name? Did I did I get it

Joanne Lockwood: close? Correct. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for that. Bit nervous there. It's, it's the Flemish pronunciation because you're based in Belgium if obviously, as the national director of Special Olympics. You're based in Belgium? Correct. Office is based in Brussels, but I myself

Dominique Dehaene: live on the French border. I always say I live in the last house in Belgium, so my my neighbor is French, so, very peculiar way of of living. We live on the countryside, so it's a commute every day from 160 kilometers single way, but, it's worth it. I like my job and I like, where I live, so, best of both worlds. Best of both worlds. Yeah. So I guess you're also

Joanne Lockwood: the first house as well as the last house. Correct. Yeah. I didn't

Dominique Dehaene: didn't quite think of that. So, yeah, it it is. It is. Fantastic. So you

Joanne Lockwood: champion inclusion through sport, with a special focus on intellectual disabilities. Do you want to tell us a bit more about what do you mean by the term intellectual disabilities?

Dominique Dehaene: Well, it's it's, you know, we all know someone with, with an intellectual disability if we start thinking about it. We all know someone with with an intellectual disability. Within Special Olympics, it's, you know, defined as someone with an IQ not higher than 75, but, you know, it could have been 76, 74, but you know, that's the definition we use, you know, and there's a whole range of people with intellectual disabilities, like there's a whole range of people without intellectual disabilities. You know, we have people with autism, people with Down syndrome, you know, the, I would say the classic people with intellectual disability. And so what we do is, well, our aim is to, to convince people not to look at their disability, but look beyond their disability and look at their talents. And we strive indeed for an inclusive society where people with intellectual disabilities, anyone else can, can play a full role in, regarding their talents and, disregarding, I would say their disabilities. And for us, the means to get there is sports because sports, it unifies people, we have what we call unified sports as well, where people with intellectual disabilities play together with people without intellectual disabilities. But we try to convince people with intellectual disabilities to do sports and through sports, they work on their health, also on mental health. They get much more self confidence. We have seen people change during the course of years. They were very, very shy, would not speak in front of public, would not even engage any conversation, would now, you know, give interviews in front of cameras, etcetera. So it's really about self confidence through sports and then showing other people what these people with IDD are capable of, not only in sports, but also in everyday life. So, we work not only with athletes, not only for athletes, we work with athletes, with people with IDD, and our goal is getting to a full inclusion of people with IDD. Yeah, just for anybody who's listening who

Joanne Lockwood: hasn't heard of that. Not to talk about people with

Dominique Dehaene: intellectual disabilities all the time, so, I'll use the term IDD.

Joanne Lockwood: IDD. Yeah. So I'm I'm aware of the term ASD, autistic spectrum disorder Yeah. Or diagnosis or whatever phrase because sometimes the word disorder can it implies a stereotype as well, doesn't it? It sort of implies there's something wrong with you. It's not there's something wrong with you. You're absolutely perfect as you are. You just have a a different skill set.

Dominique Dehaene: It's about intellectual and developmental disabilities. You know, it's the development in which is different, let's say. So Yep. Correct. Excuse me. So it's avoiding the

Joanne Lockwood: word disorder, medicalizing it, pathologizing it. It's

Dominique Dehaene: Correct. Still examining the stigma. People have a different characteristic. Correct. Like we all do, but there's somewhat more outspoken, I would say. I myself have, because you mentioned it, devoted father. I try to be. I'm a father who's not very who can be pretty absent in our household, but, you know, I, the time I spend with my family, I make it real quality time. We have our son, ourselves, a son with autism, his IQ would be 77, so he's not really, he's not categorized as a person with intellectual disability, but, you know, we know, autism and the challenges it brings, but also the advantages it brings. You look at the world differently through the eyes of a person with autism, especially when you're so close to him, so it opens your mind, it opens your perspective on some ideas you have, so it opens your perspective on the world. You know, initially because it's something that crosses your path, which you're not expecting, so because mostly it was, he was our first born as well, so it's something you don't expect and all of a sudden it's there in your life. You can't deny it if you would like to deny it, but yeah, it's something you have to deal with and you deal with it and I had the last Saturday, I did a presentation with my son together. We presented our story, well, the story of our family. He spoke in front of a public of 50 people about his life and it was heartwarming to see where well, let's say we got him, he got himself. We always had, and I'm trying to do this for the people we're working for now, people with ID. Let's not look at the limits or the limitations on beforehand. You know, it's, if you always say, no, no, no, that will not be possible because of the disability. Yeah. You will never get anywhere. Just go and see where the limits are and if if you meet the limits, then you know, okay, this is as far as we can go, but at least you will have reached that limit and you will not have stayed at the beginning and not have reached anything. And for some, the limits are pretty close. For others, they will be further away, but you know, like anyone else, just try to make the best of the talents you have and try to, you know, put the limits a little further away always. And second thing, me and my wife always did, we were always very open about our son's disability, autism, you know, it's not something you have to hide or put away. My wife is very active on Facebook. I always say if, my wife didn't, put anything on Facebook during 2 days, Mark Zuckerberg calls just to see what's going on. So, now she's very active, but we share, you know, the good stories, but also the bad stories. You know, when her son had a meltdown and there was a crisis, you know, we're being open about it, not to ridicule him or, but just to say, yes, this is what life is also about, but it's also about going to a restaurant and my son at 8, 9 years old, passing by all the tables and wishing everybody a good meal where the first looks are you, what the hell, and then you see people, actually, why don't we do this kind of thing more often and wish everybody the best or a good meal or anything, be more friendly and more open to each other. So there's a lot to learn from people with IDD, and that's what we're trying to do through sports. When you were talking, I was thinking, my mind was

Joanne Lockwood: racing on, thinking, when you said something about, you know, your son's IQ is around 77, the IDD is around 75 as as the threshold. And what we we've gotta be careful of if we don't set our expectations on their capability. Because you you got me thinking, so, I mean, I don't know what my IQ is. Let me let me say it's 140 or something. I don't know. Is that typical, I guess? I I hang out with people who have a super high IQ. They're they're chess world grandmasters, and their IQ is 175. Would they how would I feel if they were judging my 140 IQ against their their world chess champions, almost dismissing my capability of intellectual reasoning versus their own? I'd be pretty upset. So as you as you were talking about, I completely understand what you're saying there in terms of we we can't set our limitations on our beliefs about someone's capability. We have to almost embrace their opportunity to be who they are and celebrate their wins and encourage them to do better, to growth to grow within their capabilities. And I think without sounding benevolent and sort of kind of too maternal here. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there are this getting

Dominique Dehaene: back to the the the the sports aspect, you know, what we do, we are an Olympic organization, worldwide Olympic organization. You know, we have the regular Olympics, we have Paralympics, then there's special Olympics for people with intellectual disabilities, but this is sports, this is competition. This is not just people with IDD, oh, look at them, how cute they are, they're doing sports as well. No, this is competition. They train to be in our national games, they train to win a gold medal, they're very excited when they win a medal, they're very disappointed when they don't win a medal, and I have to correct something because a lot of people always think, yeah, yeah, within Special Olympics, everyone wins a medal. No, that's not true. Everyone gets a medal, but there's only 1 bronze, 1 silver and 1 gold medal, so they learn to win, they learn to lose, they learn successes and disappointments. So it's just like any other sportsman or sportswoman, this is what they do. But just, we have our own Olympic oath, which is let me win. If I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt. And I think that's something we should all live by in daily life. We are not always successful in what we try to achieve. Some things work, some other things don't, but it's sometimes okay to fail if only you try, so that's the spirit we see with our athletes. Just an anecdote. I wasn't there, but in 2023, our athletes came back from the World Games in Berlin, so we have World Games as well, where people like the Olympics, people from all over the world come together to compete in sports. And some athletes, you know, they gain few gold medals and let's say someone had 4 gold medals. We saw someone with 3 silver medals. I don't have a silver medal. Would you like to exchange your medal for my gold medal? So, you know, they compete for it. They win. They, you know, they're very glad to win. In the end, it's just sports and it's relative. It's the friendship and the bonding is, and and self confidence and and the growing is at least as important as as the competition. And that's something I think we can all we can all learn from how they lift things and and We had, our 2 children,

Joanne Lockwood: best part 30 years ago. So they're in their thirties now. And just after our daughter was born in 1992, our family friends, they had their son. And their son was born with Downes. We, as 2 families, we we went on holiday together. We used to go camping together and hang out a lot. Their son was fully part of our our family group and our our friendship group, We and I I I believe I I became a better person through knowing him, and our children became better people through knowing him. And he was just part of a part of the team. He had different needs. He he ate differently. His capabilities weren't as great. He had, he got a fast pass at the theme parks instead of having to wait. So he had some bonuses as far as our children are concerned. But, yeah, I think I got to learn that Downes wasn't a disability. It was just he had a different way of enjoying his life. And he laughed. He cried. He got excited, and he he won and and and loved loved being part of things. And and he's now in his 30s. He has a job. He still lives with his parents because I think that is inevitably the way it's gonna be whilst there's enough capability to look after him. But, you know, he he has a very productive life, and he has a girlfriend and does stuff. And I think if we look back for even 40 years, people were written off. They'd almost said, you're you you this is as far as you can go. You have to live in a home. You have to be in 2nd class schooling. You have to be marginalized. But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Special Olympics, Paralympics sport is is putting people in a better light where people are just part of society, and we we embrace them. Exactly. Exactly. Well, last year well, this year when

Dominique Dehaene: during our national games, I had one volunteer, our oldest volunteer because we work a lot with volunteers, of course, it's not, you know, we need volunteers to organize the activities. I think this man was 78, 79, something like that, so he was there from in the beginning, especially because Belgium started in 1979, and he said exactly that, he said, yeah, in the beginning we were afraid of these people. You know, it's always a bit an awkward moment if you ran into some of them and then, you know, yeah, we were a bit scared. He was very open about it and like I said, 4 years ago, we just, as you say, we just put them away in a home and that was it. Now he says, if you, if you walk 10 meters in our national games, you get 15 high fives. It's they're, they're, they're all there. They're all very enthusiastic. You get hugs, you get high fives. Everyone loves each other. Everyone respects each other. So we we've come a long way. We can't deny that we've come a long way. And I think special in these worldwide has played an important role in that and still will play an important role in the future, but there is still a long way to go. You know, regarding employment, not all of our athletes, not all people with intellectual disabilities get the chance to, yeah, do a job they like, or they're actually good at. You know, people are still, companies are still a bit reluctant to employ people with intellectual disabilities. It's not always easy. It comes with challenges. Let's be honest about it, but you know, they can overcome the challenges they live with their whole life, so why would a company not be able to overcome their challenges with them? And just that little, everyone needs, has some specific needs within their job or, you know, where no one is the same as anyone else, so, you know, there's, they come with a little more challenges, nothing that can be overcome with little help or the good mindset from, companies or institutions or whatever. So, yeah, I always think they live with these challenges every day, so how hard can it be for us to just adapt just a little to, overcome these challenges with them? Can be that hard, can it?

Joanne Lockwood: We have a cafe locally, a a social enterprise cafe, which is exclusively staffed by people with IDD, I guess you you describe them. And there's about there's a small team of them. I they probably have one supervisor who is there to help them with money or other other needs or, I think, maybe sharp knives or or things where there's potentially a danger or where things can go wrong. But they are warm, friendly, productive. They work as a team. It's a joy to be there. And I I'm aware that there are other social enterprises, certainly in the UK, where people are doing productive work. Not our benevolence. These are profit making, sustainable small businesses.

Dominique Dehaene: Correct. Giving people a a a purpose a bit. Like you said about sport,

Joanne Lockwood: it's giving people a purpose. That's what we need as humans. We need a purpose and a passion and something to drive us forward, don't we? Exactly. Now I don't

Dominique Dehaene: wanna talk about my son all the time, but he's just in that phase now. So he finished school in June, which was already a big achievement, not easy because he was in the last 3 years of secondary school, he was, you know, in a normal school, not another school for people with IDD, which was quite a challenge, so now he's looking for a job, but that takes time, But you know, in September, after 3, 4 months, I just, we as parents said, you can't stay home forever, you have to do something, you know, he walks every day, so he gets out, that's not the point. But he started in Superheroes, it's called, so it's also with people with IDD where they serve soup and, with some bread, simple, simple things, but it keeps him occupied. We would all get sick if we just stayed home for the rest of our lives without saying it can happen, of course, but you gotta have a purpose as you say, and maybe just one more anecdote about my son. A Few weeks ago, he had difficulties getting out of bed, so my wife said, yeah, she felt something was wrong, but she didn't want to insist not to go into meltdown, so she left him alone. She left the house and then a a few hours later, we get a message from his supervisor, a text that he sent her saying, yeah, I was very stressed out this morning. I was afraid to come to work because I don't socially, I don't connect very well socially. I don't know the subjects you're talking about at noon. You know, they, they, I don't sympathise with the, you know, I don't feel these subjects. And then I feel obliged to talk with you, but I don't. And then maybe he will be thinking he's not interested, etcetera. So it was one big stress in his head, but despite that, he said, no, I can't flee from the stress. So he took the, well, he took the bus, which is already a 4 kilometers walk from our home. He took the bus, he went to work, explained to his supervisor what the problem was and they worked it out. So how many people without IDD would do such a thing? They would or go to work and stress out all day without even touching the subject with their colleagues or supervisors or as it happens as well and unfortunately people go in stress and burn out, etcetera, etcetera. So he was, you know, I would say emotionally and intellectually very bright to handle the situation as, as he did. So, yeah, something else we can learn from these people is being open, being, open about emotions or feelings or stress or or positive things as well, of course. So, Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I know many people with social anxiety, extreme introversion, limiting beliefs, imposter syndrome, which is debilitating, or anxiety of using an escalator or a lift or crossing the road. It it doesn't come with IQ. It comes with your own limiting beliefs, whatever they may be, wherever your red line of fear is. It's it's in all of us. We all have our I can't go there things. Yeah. It's it it doesn't mean to say that someone with IDD or borderline IDD or autism is any more effective. Maybe it's just more hype we're more hyper aware of it, I guess. Correct. No. And I see it with a lot of our

Dominique Dehaene: athletes who now outperform themselves in sports, but also then you hear the stories of their parents who say, yeah, this would not have happened 6 years ago because he or she was not able to do this or did not have the confidence to do it, or it's the network who, you know, the people he or she knows that lifted him or her up and, made him do things they wouldn't have done before, be it in school, be it in sports, be it in social context, whatever. So we truly believe that sports is, is an entry to, to, to much more fulfilling life, I think, I can say. And not only for the athletes, but also for the environment and also for, society as a whole. And that's why it's so important to organize our activities. You know, we're probably the only Special Olympics branch in the world who organizes our national games at the level we do. We have 3,400 athletes participating. You know, it's in a way it's their moment to shine, but it's also a moment to show the world, well specifically Belgium, you know, we're capable of much more than you think, so yeah, treat us as you would treat anyone, anyone else. So that's why, you know, as I say, sports is an entry to, to, to much more. We want our athletes not only to train within their sports club, but why not let them, you know, open the bar or be in the board of their sports club or, you know, include them in any other aspects of their club or school or job they like and they are capable of. So, and that's what we call championing, through sports. We all live in

Joanne Lockwood: our own heads, don't we? But so our our sense of self, our sense of identity, all of our reference points are generated by our own brain. Everything is relative to how we perceive. I don't perceive myself as any different to anybody else, really. I mean, I have things I like doing, things I don't like doing, things I'm good at, things I'm not so good at. Presumably, people with IDD, your son included, their reference point of self has always been the same. They probably don't perceive themselves as any different than anybody else just with things they're good at and with things they're bad at. So they probably get quite confused when people judge them or create limiting situations around them because they go because they don't see themselves as being any different to them. They've always been.

Dominique Dehaene: Correct. And what we what we do also is what we call play unified at school, where some of our athletes, we call them our athlete ambassadors, go to primary school. They talk about their lives as athletes. You know, they show their medals, etcetera, which always is, you know, for these kids, they really look up to that. They talk about their lives as a person with IDD and then what we actually call play unified, they do sports together. But the way these young children look at those athletes and these people with IDD, they don't see the difference or they, you know, it just, they're very open minded about it and they say just, yeah, maybe he or she was a bit different, but I didn't really notice anything. And so that's what we try to do is trying to get adults to look at the same way at people with IDD as these children do. Like, you know, just a regular person, like anyone else with a, with a, with an open view looking at them and saying, yeah, we can play together with that person without remarking that the difference there might be. So from starting from a very young age, we try to, you know, within 20, 30 years, if they can keep that mindset towards people with IDD, we're one step closer again to an inclusion, revolution, as we call it. I often, when I'm when I'm working with

Joanne Lockwood: people, find that the one of the biggest barriers to inclusion is the fear of getting it wrong. The fear of doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, making yourself feel stupid, or whatever it may be yourself. How do we get people to lose that fear of getting things wrong and just having a go, with a warm heart, a positive outlook? Because who is the person who has the limiting capability is often the person who has the higher IQ that is not willing to engage. You

Dominique Dehaene: know, I I it makes me think of of, I was, yeah, I made quite a career switch. I've been in politics before. Just before I did this, I was working at National Air Traffic Control in Belgium, not as an air traffic controller, but, you know, I was in communication, etcetera. But what I remember is that contrary to what you would think, engineers would not always and mostly not make good air traffic controllers just because they think too much, you know, they overthink and, you know, air traffic controls, and it might not sound very reassuring, but trust me, it is, you know, they have plan A for the traffic they're guiding, but they also have in the back of their minds, a plan B and a plan C and it's not call it gut feeling, but you know, it's intuition, it's instinct, it's knowledge, it's experience, etcetera. It's a skill. Whereas engineers would like, would think too much, would say, yeah, if I do that, then that will happen. And you know, in the meantime, this plane will be 1 kilometer further away than it was when he started thinking. So basically that's what you're saying. We overthink things too much thinking, yeah, what will happen? Or what will people say? Or yeah, well, will I make a fool out of myself? And often when you do what you are afraid to do and it turns out, yeah, it wasn't bad at all. On the contrary, it was a good thing and I'm glad I did this. So like my son would do, he said, yeah, people are eating, so I wish them a good meal and if they like it or not, they cannot, you know, they cannot say I did something wrong. It's just applied gesture from what I said. On the other hand, I have to admit for many years, my son would see eating as something very practical. So he would come to the table, he would eat and he would see no interest in social communication after the meal whatsoever. So when he finished his meal, he would, he would leave the table right away. You know, there's an upside and a downside at everything. No, you're right. I think we, one of the things we learn as a parent and one of the things we can learn from people with IDD is being more authentic, be ourselves, and just see what happens. And you know, it's an illusion to think that one day everyone in the world will, will, will, will love each other. You know, there's personalities you like, there's personalities you don't like, but just be open to one another and have some empathy to think of what's going on in his or her mind, what makes him think or do this or that. And that's something our athletes or people with IDD, are more capable of than we are as a regular person, so to say. There's a military saying or a saying based

Joanne Lockwood: on the military that, no plan, no matter how good it is, ever survives first contact with the enemy. You whatever's going on in your head about what you're thinking, the first time you try and enact that plan is the fine it's the time you realize you hadn't thought of everything. I think what you're saying here, and I I talk about it as often, is you need to have a plan a to zed in your back pocket. Knowing full well the plan a, you're gonna get it wrong. It's gonna it's gonna mess up. So in which case, where's your plan b? And it's just only air traffic control. Realize the plan a is not working. Swap to plan b and just keep working through your plans. And if you run out of plan, finish with, I'm sorry. Please help me. What could I do better next time? Learn a plan a a and a plan a b and a a c. So you've got you've got the

Dominique Dehaene: intent. Yeah. And learn from it and learn from it. I mean, good intent is always a good start environment. Obviously, good

Joanne Lockwood: intent doesn't get you everywhere. You have to be accountable as well. But it's important not to be fearful of making a mistake Right. Otherwise, you're doing it without disadvantaging the person you're talking to. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And if it appears to be

Dominique Dehaene: a mistake afterwards, just learn from it. Don't make the same mistake twice. That's not what I'm saying, of course, but yeah, if you don't try, you'll never know. So that's, I would say the philosophy I have for my private life, but also for, for Special Olympics, just, you know, look up the limits and if you find them, then you know, okay, I've gotten this far and this is where it stops for now. Maybe later you'll pass another limit and learn something new. You will never know if you don't try. And as you say, ask help, because one very important aspect, and we have to talk about this as well, is of course environment. You know, life is, well, not, let's not be too pessimistic, but life is always, is struggle, you know? For some people it is because they don't get the help that they could use. And this is of course, even more the case for people with IDD. They need more help than others. And if there's no help they can rely on, it makes it even more difficult. It's good to point these things out because as a parent or as supervisor or an acquaintance or a friend or whatever from people with IDD, there are challenges that are greater than in normal life. You know, like for example, we have 2 other children, a lot of people, parents of people with IDD have children, you know, in normal life, they grew up and they marry or they get, they leave the house and start living their own lives. For people with IDD that's not always possible. They, so you, that's something, and this is for me very personal at this time. At a certain time you have to start thinking, yeah, what will happen if life takes its normal course and we live this life earlier than our son, who will take care of him then? Can he take care of himself? Does he have someone, and you can't put this on his brother or sister. You know, they have their own lives. You can't impose them to take care of him when you're not around anymore. So that's something that many, many, I think all parents of people with, you know, as long as you have them close to you, you take care of them as you do for your other children with, as I say, with the extra challenges, there comes a time when you have to let them go as well, or you have to prepare to let them go, which is practically more challenging and emotionally even more challenging because, yeah, you don't know what's going to happen with, you know, that's with, of course with other children, it's the same, but they can rely on themselves whilst these people cannot always fully rely on themselves. So I would not say this is contrary to inclusion, but the inclusion then would be, yeah, how can we, make them, live, an independent, as much as independent life as possible? So these are things that I would say the environment of people with IDD comes across, and, for during the lifetime as well, the network is crucial. You know, you, because for some, the care you have to take can be very intense, and then it's good to have for the grandparents or family or anyone else you can rely on to say, okay, let's begin. It's a bit much for the moment. Can you help us out for an afternoon? Something like that. So, yeah, environment is very important and not all people with IDD or their parents have a network they can rely on. I remember something in the the

Joanne Lockwood: UK probably a couple of years ago now is they changed the law because I never realized this, but it transpires that social care support for people with downs stopped, I think, at the age of 50 or something. There was no no provision. And it was based on the fact that people with Down's or IDD had a lower life expectancy, and, generally, they didn't survive their parents or outlive their parents. So there was a belief that parents would be always there for them. But I guess what you're saying is because of the quality of life being provided, the environments, the health, the sport, the diet, the living standards for people with IDD or downs has improved. Life expectancy is now improving across the board there. So people are living longer, and it's no longer a prognosis of a of a life where you don't get out of your thirties. You know, you should live into your fifties, sixties, seventies, and why not? We have one. We have,

Dominique Dehaene: I just met them this morning. We have, an athlete with Downs who is, 52, I think he is. He, likely his, his mom is still alive. She's 78. She's still very vital, I would say. So this works, but indeed that's, I would not say the disadvantage of, of science, but indeed people in general live longer and people with down syndrome, for example, live longer. So this poses new, what else call it, luxury problems, you know, as is healthcare in general, because people live longer, they, but they have more illnesses and diseases, etcetera. So it becomes more challenging for people in general. And so also for people with, with IDD and indeed life expectation for people with Down syndrome, some 20, 30 years ago, when it was lower, which also brings me to the topic of health in general. For, for people with IDD, they have certain, not only diseases, I don't know what the exact word is, but you know, they're diabetes, obese, they're more obese, like people down More susceptible with certain other conditions. Yeah. More susceptible, correct. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. That's, that's the word. So they're more susceptible to certain, you know, they have, people with downs have lesser depth vision. So these kind of things we have to take into consideration. So what we do, we have during our national games, we have a healthy athletes program where all the athletes participating in our games can go for screenings in 8 different health disciplines, you know, vision, heat, mouth, hygiene, feet, etcetera. And we, we treat them, we'll say, yeah, more specifically to their needs, because you can ask an athlete, yeah, do you like vegetables? Do you eat vegetables? I don't know. Vegetables. I don't like vegetables. And then we open a book full of pictures and they start, you know, pointing out the vegetables they eat and, yeah, you eat a lot of vegetables, but they just don't always know it's vegetables. Now that's a positive example, but there's also 4 out of 10 athletes that participate in our national games are wearing the wrong shoe size. Some of them are wearing 2 sizes too small, so it has to hurt. You know, they don't indicate that it's hurting. We had someone during our last games who, you know, was minus 6 in vision, didn't even wear glasses. So that proves 2 things. You need doctors and nurses, etcetera, who can approach people with IDD differently because, you know, you cannot just ask, you know, are you hurting somewhere? Maybe you are not, you know, that's not going to help. And secondly, it shows that what I call social context, not all parents of people with IDD, for example, have the means to buy glasses, to buy new shoes every month or every 6 months or so. So there's a lot of things going on around sports and health and inclusion, etcetera. It's always, there might be more going on than just the eye meets. So that's very important aspect is also health. And we work together with what the Belgian NHS, it is, so to say, so we deliver anonymously of course the data from our athlete screenings, so they know, okay, this is becoming a real problem in this population and we can, you know, set out a policy to prevent this or work on this. We work together with universities and high schools where in education, we ask them to foresee one aspect of the training program for people with IDD, how to treat them, how to approach them, etcetera, not only in healthcare, but also, you know, in sports or events and other things, so we go way beyond sports and to get to an inclusive society, learning from our experiences with our athletes and learning from the experiences parents have with their children or supervisors have within the institutions they work at, etcetera. So, it's much broader than than sports film, but the entry will always be sports. As you're

Joanne Lockwood: talking now, I was thinking about when our son was younger, He was about 9 or 10 years old, and he was struggling at school, struggling with reading, struggling with a number of things. And we, I guess, like many parents, assumed maybe he needed glasses or vision tested, so he took an eye test. And he was diagnosed being extremely long sighted. And so he got me these glasses, and he was wearing these glasses. It didn't improve things. And what we found was that he was very reluctant to wear these glasses and would always take them off. And we we we got to the conclusion that these weren't helping him, and then what we did was we realized that he wasn't had a problem with his eyes. He was, dyslexic. So when they were asking to read out the letters and things, he didn't get the letters right. He couldn't read the letters because he didn't know what the letters were. So he was misdiagnosed for the sight problem, and it was down to bit. It's, even now we laugh about it. He said, well, I just in the end, I got tired of of of disagreeing. I just did those that's better. Right. And it's a very

Dominique Dehaene: cynical thing to say. But some people with ID, it doesn't show, you know, they look just like you and me, so to say, like people with nouns, you know, they have the characteristics of people. So you see it or some athletes you hear it because they talk differently or, you know, they have different eyes or whatever. But some people with IDD, you will not notice in their appearance. That makes it sometimes even more difficult for them because, yeah, then people sometimes don't even believe they have IDD. Also, if they're

Joanne Lockwood: existing with their own frame of reference, they probably don't see themselves as having a disability either, do they? They're just them. Yeah.

Dominique Dehaene: Correct. My son sorry to come back to him all the time, but my son was interviewed at I think the age of 10 or 12, something like that, because we were always open to him as well, towards him as well about his disability, so we told him as soon as he was conscious about it, we told him he had autism, and so at the age of 10, 12 years old, he said, yeah, without my autism, I would not be myself. This is a part of me. This is who I am. So if he was asked the question, if tomorrow your autism could disappear, would you have it disappear? So he said, no, this is part of me. This is who I am. And maybe he would be afraid of, you know, if you and I woke up tomorrow and we had a totally different personality, it would scare us as well. So, so yeah, but on the other hand, it is sometimes difficult. You know, these people at a certain time of their life, they must, for example, admit, okay, I will never have children like anyone else that would not be, you know, a responsible thing to do. I will not be able to do some things people without IDD would be able to do. And and, you know, they that's a fact that is at a certain time, you know, blows you in the face and and and you have to you have to deal with it. So I'll never be clever enough to

Joanne Lockwood: be a nuclear physicist, or go to the moon, or but I can live with that. And I guess your son or other people, they're achieving what they can achieve, and when they wanna achieve it. I think we create these social constructs of normality of what people expected to behave and achieve. Whereas if we reframed it around their expectation of self, of what they want to achieve,

Dominique Dehaene: Correct. They need to be happy. And be happy with what they achieve. And, you know, we always, well, mostly we impose more and more, so we achieve something and then we set the next goal and the next, next, and the next without just being happy with what we've achieved, feeling for ourselves, okay, this is my limit. As you say, me neither, I will never be a nuclear physicist or an astronaut or whatever. So we're happy with that. But in the meantime, you know, just the one step above what we are doing now, we always strive for that without saying at a certain time, it's okay. This is where I'm happy and I don't need anything else or anything more. So indeed, yeah. And I'm no better than anyone else at that. I say for my son, okay, he reaches his limits or he goes further than his limits and it's great, but for ourselves, we're never satisfied with what we do. We always want more. And

Joanne Lockwood: that doesn't breed happiness sometimes, does it? We're always wanting the next thing. So sometimes it'd be really lovely to just be satisfied with what we have, sufficiency rather than capitalism going out of control. Just being happy for someone else, you

Dominique Dehaene: know, exchanging medals, I would say. You know, I'm glad you won that medal. I didn't, but glad for you. So you you won it and and maybe exchange medals. You want mine? I'll give you yours. You give me yours, and, yeah, that's a valuable lesson to learn from our athletes, but that doesn't mean we keep striving to include them in more than we think they are capable of because, you know, they have a right to a fulfilling life as much as anyone else. And as I say, we try to encourage people to look beyond their disabilities and keep looking at their talents, be it in sports or anything else. That's that's what we believe in, and that's really what we strive for, every day. A lot lot of the challenge, you know, we talk about here is this

Joanne Lockwood: the social construct of what we've decided is every day is normal. And you alluded to earlier around safety, security, because we set up the system in a certain way for people who don't have IDD or doubts. Therefore, they don't necessarily have the comprehension of expectation or normality, whatever that may mean, or the rules of engagement. So it's you know, we talk about the social model of disability versus the medical model. So it's society has created a model that makes it challenging for them because it's not based for them. Correct. And that's what we we try

Dominique Dehaene: to, you know, teach them as well as through sport is saying, it's okay to to to strive for more. You have to train if you want to win. And the goal should be to win. Otherwise you're, you know, there's no reason to compete. The reason to compete is to win and that's okay. And you can be excited when you win. You have to be disappointed when you lose, but in the end you have to think, okay, I tried, at least I tried, and if I can do this, I can do other things in my life as well. If I just try and then I'll see how far it gets me, and maybe I will not win, but I might end up with silver or bronze, which is fine as well. So, strive to be the best person you can be and be happy about it when you reach that goal. And to society we're saying, you know, they're trying just as hard as anyone else and, you know, give them the opportunity to be themselves, to achieve the best version of themselves like you are trying to do, But on the other hand, learn from them that it's okay to not always reach your goal or if you just try. So, that for me is inclusion, accepting the strengths and the, you know, weaknesses of disabilities even from other people and accepting everyone for who they are and giving them the chances like anyone else would get or deserve or grasp the opportunities that pass along. We do this in every day anyway. I mean,

Joanne Lockwood: I'm just thinking about golf. Golf is a sport. You have handicaps. So the people who are beginners, have less capability, are not playing way, way behind. They feel that they can compete against people who are better. And you have the the men's tee and the female tee, so recognizing that some people have different strengths in in in their driving range. So we're making reasonable adjustments to allow people to compete in sport and level the playing field as much as we do anyway. So all we're doing here is recalibrating success. And which which which is actually one of the

Dominique Dehaene: an important part of sports within Special Olympics is divisioning, where we put the let's use a very bad words, the weaker athletes compete against each other and the stronger athletes compete against each other. So there's a fair level playing field and there's nothing wrong with that because, you know, if you have to compete to athletes who are not as good as you, it's no fun for anyone. So we divide the athletes, I would say, in, into categories, so everyone would have a chance to reach for the best, But then within the category, they can still compete with someone who's better or or or just not better than than them. So it makes the competition more tight, which which is good for everyone. In my in my young adulthood, in my

Joanne Lockwood: twenties, I used to play a lot of squash. One of the people in the company I was working for was ranked 100 in the country, and there was also somebody in a different department who was ranked 20 in the country. And I never played the person who's ranked a 100, but I did ask them one day. I said, do you ever play this other person in the rank 20? I said, but there's no point. Between a 120, there's so much difference. It would be no fun for either of us. In the same way, there was no point in me playing the person who was ranked a 100, because it just I'd just be you need to play someone who's very closely aligned to your capability to make it fun for both. Yeah. If you if you

Dominique Dehaene: always win, it's not fun in the end anymore because there's no competition. If you always lose, it's not fun anymore because you don't get any better, but if you're good and then all of a sudden you meet the person or the team that is better than you, that's when you learn and you make progress. And maybe if the person who was ranked 100 would play the person who was ranked 90 and then 80 and then 70, maybe someday he will reach the person ranked 20th position, and if he doesn't, at least he will have tried, so there's nothing wrong with trying. No. So do you have a sport?

Joanne Lockwood: What do you play in? I'm a runner, but I always

Dominique Dehaene: say I have more, you know, perseverance than talent. So, I run a lot. I like running, but I, you know, I'm I'm not a winner. I'm just having fun running. And, yeah, I do. You do it for the adrenaline, the buzz, the the brain

Joanne Lockwood: chemicals, and the and the feeling of Exactly. Clearing your head and having a Yeah. Good workout. And having some new

Dominique Dehaene: thoughts as well when when you are running long enough. It's, Yeah, exactly. I enjoyed that. I've had my difficulties myself in sports life. I was too fanatic at a certain time, so I got anorexic as well and, you know, that's another one of my struggles, but I'm good now, you know, I will always be anorexic, but it's, let's say under control and I enjoy running it, just enjoy running and, you know, you have good days, you have bad days, but whereas before the bad days would freak me out, but just, yeah, it's okay. Next time will be better again. So, just enjoying. And I think that's something, not only in running, we have to try in everyday life as well. Just enjoying, making the best out of it, because we're only here at the best some 80, 90 years. So let's make the best of of these years and enjoy those days with with the people who are closest to us.

Joanne Lockwood: You you dropped in the conversation there about your anorexia. We just got to the end of this podcast, really, and I'm I'm now thinking I wish we dived into that a bit more. Maybe maybe you'll come back one day, and we can talk about your anorexia because it's something I've never I've never really spoken to somebody about. I have the opposite problem. I find it very difficult to stop eating. I yo yoed my weight up and down by 100 of kilos, plus and minus, over my life. So, yeah, if you were willing to come back one day, we can if you want to talk about that. One of the things of being open

Dominique Dehaene: about our son, but also about this aspect of my life is we just think if it can help anyone, yeah, that's a good thing. It's nothing to be ashamed of. If other people recognize themselves in some things and they say, oh, you, you know, you handle it with this in that particular way and maybe we should try the same or, just knowing we're not alone with this challenge, whatever it may be. Just talking about it and be open about it. If it can help anyone, gladly, yes. Let's make an appointment for her next time.

Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I mean, you've been and I hate the word brave is overused. Yeah. But you've shared the story of your son and your passion and how he has inspired you, I guess, in your current role with the Olympics, Special Olympics. I I've taken so much away today. It's been really, really powerful, and I just wanna thank you for being open and and and sharing. It's been really, really, really powerful, as I said. No. Thank you.

Dominique Dehaene: Thank you so much. No. Thank you. Thank you.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.