---
title: "Beyond Branding"
episode: 145
date: 2025-01-30
guest: "Samta Datta"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/145-beyond-branding
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-145/audio.mp3
---

# Beyond Branding

Joanne Lockwood is joined by brand marketing consultant Samta Datta for a wide-ranging conversation about why genuine connection matters more than polished branding. Samta shares how her work centres on understanding people’s insights, pain points and passions, and argues that real resonance starts with connecting to yourself, not constructing a marketable persona. Together they unpack authenticity in both personal and professional life, including the risks of “catfishing” yourself through an online identity that doesn’t match who you are in real life. They discuss how maintaining a performative persona can be exhausting and unsustainable, contributing to stress and burnout, and why owning your values and character is a more durable path. The episode also reflects on how COVID changed the way people connect, the impact of isolation on psychological safety and mental health, and why touch and in-person energy can feel uniquely restorative. The conversation broadens into social expectations and work-life pressures, including the challenges women face balancing career and family across cultures, and how younger generations are redefining success through technology, flexibility and new working models. The central theme returns to alignment: whether you are an individual or an organisation, connection and integrity need to come first, with commercial outcomes following as a byproduct of trust and genuine relationships.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 02:00 — Connecting with self and others is essential.
- 05:25 — Isolation during Covid increased desire for connection.
- 10:11 — Creating trust through positive energy and respect.
- 12:10 — Human emotions drive intentional living and connections.
- 14:21 — Personal branding commoditises self-identity and authenticity.
- 17:57 — Strong personal brand sacrifices authentic self.
- 23:11 — Struggles with letting go and moving on.
- 27:35 — Growth requires mindset, inclusion, and mental strength.
- 28:39 — Pain is essential for personal growth.
- 32:34 — Balancing values and profitability is increasingly difficult.
- 37:13 — Indian culture: Circular, family-oriented vs Western linearity.
- 39:38 — Success culturally includes family and personal fulfilment.
- 42:28 — Societal changes affect family planning decisions globally.
- 45:49 — Lockdown taught flexibility, reverting risks losing it.
- 52:08 — Original thoughts are rarely truly unique.
- 54:44 — Join Inclusion Bytes podcast for community growth.

## Key takeaways

- The essential human need for connection and its evolutionary and psychological roots.
- The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on interpersonal connections and mental health.
- Observations on the surge in pet ownership as a response to emotional needs during isolation.
- The significance of living authentically and the consequences of maintaining public personas.
- Cultural differences in business practices between Indian and Western contexts.
- Societal pressures and the evolving perceptions of success across cultures.
- The role of touch and energy exchange in fostering therapeutic connections and psychological safety.

## FAQs

### What is the primary focus of the Inclusion Bites podcast?

The Inclusion Bites podcast, hosted by Joanne Lockwood, delves deep into fostering inclusive cultures and nurturing a sense of belonging within society. It aims to challenge norms, inspire significant change, and provide actionable insights through engaging conversations with various changemakers.

### Who was the guest on Episode 145 and what is their background?

Episode 145, titled "Genuine Stories, Empowered Connections," features Samta Datta, a brand marketing consultant from Mumbai, India. She is renowned for amplifying diverse voices and forging strong connections between people, brands, and audiences.

### How has the COVID-19 pandemic affected human connection, according to the episode?

The pandemic significantly altered human connection by increasing reliance on digital interactions due to isolation. This shift heightened mental health issues and underscored the importance of physical touch and interaction, leading to an increased sense of disconnection from the world.

### What is the impact of maintaining a public persona on personal well-being, as discussed in the episode?

Both Samta and Joanne emphasise that sustaining a public persona can be exhausting and unsustainable, often leading to burnout. Authenticity is crucial, as trying to uphold a manufactured image can result in losing one's true self and mental fatigue.

### What are the cultural differences in business practices between India and Western countries according to Samta Datta?

Samta highlights that Indian business practices are deeply rooted in family-oriented values, which contrasts with the more linear and hierarchical approach observed in Western cultures. Success in India often involves fulfilling familial duties and embodying holistic living.

### How do Joanne and Samta view the concept of success differently between Western and Indian cultures?

Western perceptions of success tend to be more individualistic and capitalist. In contrast, Indian culture views success as achieving familial and holistic fulfilment, a perspective also mirrored in some European cultures.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 145 with the title Genuine Stories, Empowered Connections. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Samta Datta. Sam is a brand marketing consultant who uncovers authenticity and amplifies diverse voices, helping individuals and brands shine by telling their unique, impactful stories. When I asked Sam to describe her superpower, she said that it is making connections, whether it's between people and their true selves or between a brand and its audience. Sam, welcome to the show.

Samta Datta: Thank you so much. That's lovely. Lovely to be here talking to you, Joanne. Pleasure. I understand you're

Joanne Lockwood: from Mumbai in India. Yes, I

Samta Datta: am, very much. Have you been here or are you planning to come here anytime soon? I've never been to India, but every time

Joanne Lockwood: I talk to somebody, they say, you must come. So I've got plenty of invites to meet for meals, coffees and give me some sightseeing. So, yeah, I will come to India one day, definitely. Yeah. Hopefully, yeah, hopefully, yeah, hopefully. Very soon, Very soon. Yeah, very soon. Very soon. Yeah. I'm just looking for an invite that's going to pay me, to be honest. That'd be the real. If there's a conference or a speaking opportunity that someone's going to pay for my plane ticket, I'd love to come, but anyway, I will come regardless at some point. So, Sam, let's find out a bit more about you. So Genuine Stories empower connections. Where did that come from? That came from my

Samta Datta: entire experience of working in the world and on myself. Yeah, I mean, as I. As I was working over the number of years that I have on the brands that I have, I think one thing that I have collected beyond the experience of what you do as your job is connecting with People understanding them, understanding their insights, their pain points, their passion points. And from there, I realise at the end of it, no matter how much knowledge you have, how much value you have to offer, if you're not able to connect from that, you know, with that person, nothing that you have is appealing. So for me, connections are a very, very important part of how we exist and coexist in the world. And that connection begins with connecting with self. So, yeah, as a brand person, yes, that's something that I do as my day job, but the real job is to connect, to connect from oneself and to connect with others. Connecting is a very human thing, isn't it? It is. There's absolutely we going back in time, back

Joanne Lockwood: to our prehistoric, our Neanderthal, the evolution of the human race. We thrive through building connections. We're not a loner species, are we? We need company, we need to meet with people. We are tribal by very instinctive

Samta Datta: nature of ours. And I think that gives us a sense of security. Connections give us a sense of security and is a part of our psychological makeup. So it indeed is something that we, we thrive in. So connecting is very, very important. And that's why, you know, if you see all around the world, the institutions that thrive are based on connection. So, I mean, that's. And you know, in. Even in my experience, Jo, what I've learned is, you know, when you connect, whether it is brand or whether it is people or whether it is strengths, that's when you really grow. If you're not able to connect, you are not able to grow, you know, so connection is very, very important to the progress of anything. Of course, we all went through that Covid

Joanne Lockwood: time several years ago where the way we connected changed overnight, didn't it? We were, we were living our lives and suddenly the rules changed. Even for you. No matter where you were in the world, everybody was affected somehow.

Samta Datta: Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And it kind of, you know, it's a weird thing because we were so isolated, the desire or the pull to connect was much more deeper. That's when, you know, if you see how the digital wound really happened, happened in Covid and if you were actually seeing, you know, the travel industry kind of going off the charts today, it is because of COVID because, you know, people are like, there is one life to live and we need to live it and we need to experience everything. So let's travel, let's do everything. So, you know, that that entire formal fear of missing out, all those, those basic human needs are kind of at the forefront of our existence today because of the deep isolation that we. We all kind of encountered in Covid. And the fear of survival linked with very much the fear of survival because in its very nature, Covid was so isolating. Yeah, we changed the way

Joanne Lockwood: we interacted. We went from being hugging and shaking hands and kissing each other to having Zoom or teams or Google Meets. We went online. We connected differently. And I think we had to learn how to fill the energy between us differently as well. Indeed. Absolutely. We had

Samta Datta: to. We had to kind of like learn and figure out how do we. How do we make sense of this new world that we are encountered with? How do we. How do we engage here? And while we all. I mean, bravo to. To all. All of our adaptable skills that we. We kind of moved in very fast on that one. But it kind of also gave rise to a lot of mental issues because connection is so deeply linked to our psychological safety that. That, you know, the way the mental issues came up after that is unprecedented. So, yeah, you know, that's. That's also something that I have really seen at our end of the world that, you know, a lot of mental issues kind of came up during and after Covid because of the acute isolation and the acute way of. Because digital connection, no matter how much connecting it is, it is not tactical by nature. So how the tr. How the energy kind of transcends here is much different than how the energy transcends when you meet somebody in flesh and flesh and blood. So, yeah, to be adapting to that, it did have a kind of a deep impact on people. And also it gave rise to the entire, I think, the pet industry, globally, you know, the connections. We were so. We were so deeply longing for connection that, you know, we went beyond the human connection and the pets and the entire industry kind of boomed during that time. Yeah, I

Joanne Lockwood: never realised. I suppose for most of my life I didn't realise just the power of touch. It really occurred to me in the last, I think probably six to 12 months that I started really feeling the energy transfer both ways. Just by holding somebody, by hugging somebody, by being close to somebody. It's not about the words, it's not about. It's not sexual or anything like that. It's. It's a pure energy transfer where that warmth and the two spirits almost combine in that energy. And I. I find now that I can be silent. I can be quiet and start to feel down, but as soon as I maybe haunt my wife or give my daughter a hug, I suddenly feel that invigoration coming over me where that exchange of energy has made all the difference. Beautifully put. Like, beautifully put

Samta Datta: because it is therapeutic in nature, come to think of it. If we are, you know, how we are created in the womb and how we kind of, you know, cascade down to the life that we have today, from that point is all about, is all about touch and nurture and it is all about that energy exchange. And no matter where we are, the closest we feel to safety is our mothers, right? Or anything. Mother Nature. That's why we call it Mother Nature. Because the minute you start connecting back to your roots, that's where your energy transfers are the highest and, you know, you feel nourished the most. So in that sense, you're absolutely right. The way energy kind of transcends, you know, it is, it is so. It is so lucid in a certain way also, come to think of it. Right, because, you know, we thrive on it. It's so much silent also, like you said, you don't need to speak a word with that connection. You know, it just kind of open, opens you up in that sense. So. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right there. You

Joanne Lockwood: mentioned psychological safety. And I, I sometimes think about, or I think about psychological safety. It's, can I trust me with you? Are you going to listen to me? Are you going to respect me? Are you going to amplify me? Are you going to make me feel good about myself? Or am I going to be damaged by talking to you, by being with you or being around you? So I think a lot of this comes subliminally, so you don't. You're not always aware of it. You feel someone's energy, you feel someone's passion and you can just tell when you're interacting with somebody, whether they're a you person or they're not a you person. So I always find it's very, very important when you're trying to create space for people to create a positive energy space or a positive vibe space, so that when we are interacting, I know that you can trust me and I know you could. I could, I can trust you in that conversation. You know, the strange part here

Samta Datta: is I used to think that way. Exactly. And while that is partly true, and then while that is certainly important for us to feel and that is, you know, implicit in the way we behave and how we trust, if you start living a little more intentional life, you realise maybe, you know, you. You have to do that in a meditative state, that maybe you will never find that kind of hundred percent, you know, Psychological safety in most people. But as long as you can deal with, okay, I'm not certainly a hundred percent psychologically safe in this space, but if I, I know how to get around this, you'll be able to open up more. Because what happens is, you know, if you keep looking for psychological safety in environments, chances are you're not going to find much of it. Because we all get defensive, right? And after a point we're all very guarded and defensive. We, you know, in, in, in, in the, in the haste of guarding our own self, sometimes we are not able to be providers or holding that space, as you said. But, you know, if we move over from that point to say, okay, even if I'm not 100% safe in this environment, in this, I know how to get around it and live a little more intentionally with our own energies powering us, I think we can move past that. But you're right for the initial bit, you know, you know, whether that is your person or not, you know, whether you'll be able to hold that conversation or not, or whether how much you need to open or not and, you know, how much can you move forward with that person or that that's very, you know, intuitive in all of us and we form connections basis that a lot of the work that I've done, you know, with consumer work that I've done where we kind of try to find people's security, desires, aspirations for the products, for the lives that they lead in, um, you know, a lot of times we realise that it is there, there are very few basic human emotions that most, I would say, businesses or brands are relying on and building on. You know, while we do a lot of consumer work, we just realise that human insights and the fundamental truths remains so strongly ingrained across geographies that it's very difficult to kind of go past that. It is very difficult. So, yeah, I mean, there is a dichotomy in our existence in that sense that, you know, it is so deeply ingrained, while at the same time we are always pushing ourselves to be more powerful and live a very, very intentional life.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, you mentioned brand there. And when we talk about, when we think about brand, we often think about a company or an organisation or a product. But we have our own brand as well, don't we? Our own values. Because brand comes down to values. It's how we align what. It's the things that turn people on or turn people off, all those kind of. And that has to be authentic. I mean, we mentioned authenticity already because people could tell when you as a person or you as a brand or you as an organisation are not authentic, you're pretending you're putting messaging out there that doesn't align. And that's worse than putting no brand out at all, being insincere. True, true,

Samta Datta: true. Yeah. You know, let me take a step back and kind of give my, a little view on that. You know, when, when we use the term brand, somehow it is a very, you know, commoditizing of a certain thing and ourselves also, you know, I mean, the whole, the whole, right now, the whole jingle about your personal brand. And while I'm totally on to have a certain sense of self and identity there and authenticity there, when we use the term brand, it is, it is commoditizing in a certain way. But how I look at it, you know, is that you are a strong brand or you are a strong identity in reflection to others, actually are more of yourself, you know, you are not a brand. Okay, if I work in personal branding, I can't say, okay, you know, oh, Jo, I love you. You know, tomorrow, let's make a brand out of you and let's polish this side of you and let's make, you know, give you five of these things to do and then, you know, you will be an iconic brand and I'll make you an opera. No, no, no, that, that's very inauthentic, right? The space. Yes, please. Why not? Absolutely. But you know, that's very inauthentic. For, for me it is. When you become more of who you are, when you end up owning more of who you are, you are a stronger brand. And when you don't live by the judgement of being bought by people, you know, then that's when you are a stronger brand. So I think when, I mean, when I say, you know, helping people become a stronger brand, I mean helping people become a stronger sense, developing a stronger sense of self rather than, you know, giving them a playbook of saying, okay, this is how you need to be authentic, these are the five things you need to do. That's no matter how good they are, they are not authentic. If you just can own up your own unique strength, and I believe everybody has that, the more you own up, the more you shine. And let's not fix what's not broken, let's not try to be fitting in the world of. And painting a perfect picture. Owning up your more of yourself is becoming a true brand. That's my $0.02 there. Have you heard

Joanne Lockwood: of the term catfishing or catfishing on social media? On dating profiles. Yes, yes, I have. What you're saying here is if you're not careful, what you end up doing is misrepresenting yourself either with a fake image, a fake Persona, fake personality, whatever it may be, which is effectively catfishing. When you meet me in person, I'm not the person you think I am from what you've seen already. So that, that's where the authenticity comes in. My online, my visible presence, my brand, if you like, aligns when you meet me as well. Because too often, I mean, I watch chat shows, movie stars, they come onto the. They come onto the chat show and you realise your hero, movie star isn't the person they vote the character they play. But that's how you see them as this character they play in the movie. Really, them as a human being have different values, different beliefs. And so sometimes, if you're not careful, you live your public Persona without it truly being you. Oh, my God,

Samta Datta: you kind of nailed it. You really did nail it there. Because you know what the byproduct of creating a very strong quote unquote, personal brand or having a strong Persona or having a star quality to anybody for that matter, is that beyond that success or beyond that identity, you become a personality and you lose the person. Like you saying, catfishing, right? What happens is so many times you end up behaving like how you're supposed to behave versus owning up your authentic self. And, oh, my God, if you're successful at that, you will have to keep. You have to perpetually be on stage all the time. And that's. That's not good. I think we

Joanne Lockwood: see famous people through history burning out. You know, go back to Elvis Presley, go back to all these big names through time that you think about all these people that have taken their own lives, they've had breakdowns, they've drugs and drink, alcohol, they're trying to keep themselves in their brand Persona and they need these drugs effectively to keep them there. Because it's unsustainable, isn't it? Exactly. Absolutely. You know, because

Samta Datta: at the end of the day, you know, that's why I have a little bit of a. I take it with a pinch of salt when I use the word personal branding. Because what you're trying to do is basically stitch together a mask for yourself that you need to hold on then and put on forever. And that's actually so counter to, you know, that's actually the opposite of what you're trying to do here. The idea is to own up a little more of yourself. The idea is to develop courage to be a little more of yourself, not to have the perfect couture and wearing it out. That's not the idea here. The idea here is to be a little more of who you are, allowing yourself a little air and time and space, because otherwise, how many, how many commodities can you really have? One would be plastering on an image and the other one and the. Then the other one. And how long can you keep up the show? Yeah, I've. I think,

Joanne Lockwood: well, I've probably been through this evolution myself and I realised that it's important to just live one life. If you're trying to live two lives or you have to translate everything in your head. Yes. Who am I talking to? What story have I told in the past? How have I got a smile? How have I got to show up? And it becomes so exhausting. And when you let that go, life just becomes simpler. Just love me or hate me for who I am, not for who I'm pretending to be.

Samta Datta: True. True. And that's at. The journey begins with self. Here the journey begins with allowing yourself to own that up. Because as we evolve as humans, there will. There will be many, many aspects of ourselves that we'll develop. And that could be leaving behind something and getting into something. And no matter how successful my past tense was at the end of it, it was a past tense. You know, you need to move forward and find the new you and then build that up. And that's the circle of life. Why do you think people

Joanne Lockwood: are so scared or fearful about showing their true selves? Sometimes they think they're good enough. They don't think people are going to like them. Well, there a lot of

Samta Datta: reasons, I'm sure I. I don't see. A lot of times when we are young, our sense of self is not developed and we see ourselves through other people's eyes, be it siblings and parents and. And grandparents and friends and crushes and boyfriends and girlfriends and that sometimes, you know, like I read somewhere, when you. When a parent is mean to a child, you know, knowingly or unknowingly, the child does not end up becoming mean to the parent. The child end up in hating themselves. So you're. If in your foundation, you've. You've had some experiences where you were criticised, you were not strong at that point to fight back, so you believed them and their vision of yourself and you started kind of cultivating that opinion and that hate for self while still loving the source of the hate or any kind of trauma that came in with that you know, but that has shaped most of us. And yeah, one has to kind of realise that, okay, this is the line and now I press the stop button and I reevaluate and recalibrate myself from here. Have you been through something similar

Joanne Lockwood: yourself where you've had to discover who you. Are

Samta Datta: many times, many times over. I am still, I'm sure, doing that, you know, because I get very guarded and I don't allow much opinions to flow in. Yeah, I could be very. And certainly that takes that. I end up wasting a lot of time to let go of what needs to be and move on to the next because I'm somebody very, very. I would consider myself somebody very passionate. So I end up investing or over investing myself in building something up and then it is very difficult for me to leave that and move to the next and find light at the end of the tunnel as you move forward. So yeah, I struggle with that myself. What advice

Joanne Lockwood: do you give yourself when you, when you feel yourself into this dead end, you know, going dead, going into this tunnel? How do you, how do you help yourself find the light? I'm a

Samta Datta: person of very strong faith, so that has really helped me over so many years. But I do, I do believe that nothing matters. Eventually nothing matters. I mean, whatever I'm building, whatever I'm doing, wherever I am, it's all a game. Nothing would really matter. So enjoy it. This is what I've, I've Learned like last 4 years. This is how I have kind of made it a little bit of my mantra that nothing really matters. So play it on, play it on the way you want to play it on because eventually, you know, in couple of years this will not make sense. Something else will become important and the priorities will keep changing. So don't give it too much importance. If it's a mistake, that's okay. Move on, make another one. The change is constant.

Joanne Lockwood: It's about riding the wave, knowing that the right, the wave will just keep floating us on and we'll find some new opportunities. If things don't work, we learn from it and we just find the next thing. Yeah. And eventually

Samta Datta: everything is a game. Nobody's going to, nobody's, nobody's keeping your score except you. So yeah, that, you know, you have to. Yeah, I suppose when we get

Joanne Lockwood: to the end of the game, there is no more, is there? It's. We leave this world and, and everybody else moves on without us and we just cease to be. So you're right, we have a time on this earth and we go through many, many different phases of our life as a child, as a teen, as an adult. And we evolve all the time, don't we?

Samta Datta: Yeah. And everything is a lesson. Everything is, is meant for you to learn something and move forward. Sometimes it comes in a form of a very painful event and sometimes it comes in a form of a big ticket win. But at the end of thread, everything is a game, everything is an experience, everything's a lesson. You learn it, you share it, you enjoy in it, you thrive in it, you burn in it and you move forward. That's what I've learned. And there are many lessons still to be learned. There isn't any bottom line here. No. I'm a, a great believer

Joanne Lockwood: that most of the reality is made up in your own head and you create your own reality and your brain makes sense of stimulus from the world around you. And what you, how you interpret that is data. How, how you interpret it and you can interpret anything positively, negatively, and it's how you frame it in your, in your head.

Samta Datta: Yeah. Not always easy to reframe,

Joanne Lockwood: but when you realise you have the power on how you see something. Yeah. And you can adjust the way you think, that's, it's, it's empowering and also liberating. It's very liberating because. Yeah, it is.

Samta Datta: Because at the end of a Jol, you have to live a very intentional life and you have to allow yourself to endorse your power. You know, that is very important. The power cannot rest in anywhere else except yourself. And when you do that, you create an intentional life. You police yourself a lot more and say, okay, those thoughts are not going to help me. That action is wasting my time. That is a, not a meaningful way to engage. You know, so you, you, you kind of develop your own, you know, you became, you become creature of habit creations that serve you rather than the other way around. So and, and that, and there from where the, you know, your behaviour kind of builds. Yeah, it is.

Joanne Lockwood: And I, I, we talk about things like growth, mindset and open mindedness and looking for the good in people, looking for opportunities in, in the world. All these things allow you to expand and move on from trauma, move on from getting stuck into something. Not every, not everybody has the mental capacity or mental strength or the privilege to be able to make those decisions. And we talked in the show notes, you mentioned the word inclusion and we're touching on brand because when you're feeling excluded, when you're feeling discriminated against, when you're, you're not in the Majority, you're being pushed to the edges. Sometimes it's hard when you have that negative reinforcement in order actions to better see a way forward. And it's very easy for me and maybe for you to say just it's okay, you can put it behind you. But not everybody has that privilege, do they? No, they don't. And sometimes we are meant to

Samta Datta: experience a certain, a certain amount of pain. We are meant to experience that. That's very important for us. So I mean right now, if you will tell me when I am going through that pain, that it is important for you to go through that pain. I'm sure I'm not going to take this well, but the truth lies in knowing that sometimes it is important for you to go through that pain, for you to become the next you. You know, we're all in the process of becoming, not the CEO, the this or that, but in the process of becoming. Becoming a. You know, we are becoming. We are always that evolving and becoming. So in that sense, it is not easy. You are absolutely right. And sometimes we don't have the agency to support us in any form or manner. We have to be. We are at of the lowest ebb. We are. We find our. But we find our way. You know, we find our way, trust me. We find our way. We find what lessons we have learned. We find the way around it. I mean, I, I'm a person of faith. I found my strength through faith. You could be a person of action and you could find your strength in action, but we find courage. And that's why courage is a, is a very most important in my eyes as a virtue because courage keeps you moving and becoming the next version of yourself. That's. And that's, that's where I'm saying that, you know, coming back to the brands and the way of the world, brands also cannot avoid negativity. The lowest ebb, the hate at times, but it is standing on your core at that point that kind of takes you to the next level in the game. Yeah, I think as you're speaking

Joanne Lockwood: there I was thinking of the word character popped into my head. And someone's character, the brand character, how you respond to negativity or to positivity or situation is your character is how you, how you show yourself in times of adversity, whatever it may be. So when we are making mistakes, it's how we respond to that mistake is our character, isn't it? Exactly

Samta Datta: like they say, character is what you do when no one is watching, when the lights are off, you Know. Yeah. That integrity, the character that, that really shines. Right. That really shines through. Through. And, and that is authentic. I mean, again, I, I would just say in that moment also we cannot be self righteous and say that is a higher character thing to do and that is a lower character thing to do. If in that moment also that person was trying to be more of who they were, I think their inner power would be stronger. And in that moment, if you are half hearted, half brained, trying to please everybody, no matter if you did the right thing, you disown yourself in this, in this whole action. I don't know whether it is making sense.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, no, completely. Completely. Yeah. When you're working with organisations, it's very easy, you know, to sell who you want to be. Not selling who you are or marketing or creating this brand about this Persona that you, you want to step into. Yeah. How hard is it to get brands to recognise they need to change themselves first before they try and step into this brand again? That authenticity, aligning themselves. So if you're not careful what you do is you, you keep chasing the dream of who you are and never actually being that dream. Hand on heart, it is.

Samta Datta: It, it is more for most times it is difficult and I'll tell you why it is difficult. It is not difficult because you know, you are you doing business with people who don't understand this. No, they absolutely understand this and they understand it's sometimes equally, if not more than how much you. In the world that we live in, if we are constantly married to an Excel sheet and the bottom line and every year on year we have to show a certain amount of profitability, it becomes very difficult, increasingly difficult. Sometimes your values will get shortchanged because the numbers become important. But if in the long run, if you see the brands that have been able to hold the test of the time are the ones who have either stood on themselves on those pillars or have course corrected themselves. So if you are somebody who is building something that commands a certain amount of, you will understand this very easily and you will understand why it is important for you to hold on to it. But if you are somebody who gets pressurised with the bottom line way too easily, then it becomes a challenge, and rightly so. Sometimes it is challenging. I can't, I won't judge, but that's the truth of it. Bottom line has to be

Joanne Lockwood: part of the equation. Because if you're, if your product, your brand, whatever you're trying to sell, whether it's you or the business, if it's not resonating, it won't sell. Therefore the bottom line will suffer. But I often think that we should be leading with. We are leading people first, leading, and we talked about connection first, building that resonance with somebody else. Then the bottom line should come as a byproduct. Whereas if you put the bottom line as the prime objective, then you try and fit everything into inauthentically to try and achieve that bottom line. Whereas if you start with people first and generate profit and revenue through positive connection, then the bottom line will follow. Keep an eye on the bottom line, obviously, making sure that you're spending the money in the right place. If the overheads are correct, if you have to leave with people, you have to leave with connection. You have to leave with character and brand, in my opinion.

Samta Datta: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I have nothing else to add. You are absolutely right. And I wish and I pray and I hope that in times to come we have businesses and people that not just believe in this also walk the talk, you know, because I think, I think the current businesses, the new world that we are living in, the consumer is dissing, has developed a very strong voice and is dissing the brands on these. On these parameters. Absolutely. So you can't just be the big brand and dump your waste somewhere in the world and, you know, wash your hands off it. Brands are being made to be more accountable, they're doing businesses. And yeah, the world is changing. The world is definitely changing. How I said

Joanne Lockwood: earlier that I've never been to India as yet. How do you perceive the way India does business versus maybe the Western or the Eastern or the European sort of influences that maybe you see? Is other values similar or is Indian culture and ethics different to the Northern hemisphere? The Americans, the British, the Russians. Good question.

Samta Datta: Fundamentally, Indians are very family oriented. Most of our cultural value are very family oriented. So the businesses that come from India represent the family value system in the organisation far more strongly. Not to say that necessarily they are good or bad, but this is one. The family values get adapted to the business far more strongly. And India is very big to actually answer this one, because different regions have different business houses and different examples and different sects do business very differently. So it's very tough to answer, but I'm trying to kind of put it all together to simplify it. That is very strong. So you will find, you know, if you look from the eyes of the Northern hemisphere, as you were calling it, it might not be very easily understood or why are Indians doing it? Why is everybody related to everybody? But you know, it's, it's that cultural family value kind of cascades down to the business most times. The other thing to actually look in behavioural economics is that we as Indians, you know, are very circular as people. I don't know whether it's making sense. The west, if I would say, fundamentally looks at everything as a linear line and hierarchy of sorts. So one step and, you know, you become, you join an executive, then you become a senior executive, then you become a manager, senior manager and so on. And you know, the world is linear in weight approaches success, while in the context of India, the world is very circular. So even, you know, in our practises, in our festivities, in our celebration, everything is very roundabout. Everything just comes back to the same point somehow. So we aren't very linear. So we, the way we stand is, we know, okay, even if you are standing ahead, we are all standing in the circle. And as it moves, you might be ahead right now, but the circle will move and I'll be ahead. That's a very fundamental, what do I say, ingrained value in Indians. And that is why they're very, they're taken to be very casual in most, in most areas, which might, Might not be true anymore. But I'm talking about a very philosophical difference between the two. I don't know whether that really answered your question. But yeah, I, I was just

Joanne Lockwood: using my limited knowledge of my stereotypes and biassing to see that maybe the Western culture is more capitalist and cutthroat. The Indian culture, in my perception, will be more collaborative and more success of the whole rather than success of the individual. But then that's the stereotype that I have no evidence for. Well, to a certain extent,

Samta Datta: I would say that stereotype is correct in our language per se. The idea, the word success is not bifurcated alone to the arena of work. The term, if you translate it to, I'm using right now Hindi, but if you translate it to a local language, the idea of success as translated is you are successful when you are a good son, when you perform your family duties, when you perform. But that, I mean, I know when you perform a holistic way of living, that's when you are successful. That's when you are considered, you know, successful. But I would say that would be quite similar to the way even Europe is, you know, at least Britain, if I'm. I'm not mistaken. Because am I correct? Not correct. I think people want that. There's a belief that

Joanne Lockwood: people see true success when you have everything. But then there's the Paradox that you can't have everything. You know, we look at, let's talk about gender. Women are finding it very difficult to have everything, a family, parenthood and career success. And most women are put in a position where choosing between career success and family means they have to choose and it. And then when they come back into the workplace in their 40s, they're finding it hard to catch up again. And we're seeing huge gender gaps because of the family responsibilities or lack of by gender. So I don't know whether from a gender perspective in India, whether women feel they have the opportunity to have both family and career. I think if you

Samta Datta: see, I would say, you know, the corporate, big city life, metropolitan life, I would say this is so true for India as well. It is quite true. There's a byproduct of a lot of things that has happened in last 30, 40 years and the way the world has shaped up, fortunately or unfortunately, it's a struggle. It becomes a struggle point and a stress point. And as women we are told to, you know, your prime responsibility is your home. If you are successful at the cost of your home, that's not success. You're shamed for it rather so success. If it coming at the cost of your primal, natural, quote unquote duties, then it is, it actually is used to shame you. So yeah, we are not living by the same rules for sure. Is society

Joanne Lockwood: changing? Is it? Or is there still a lot of pressure for women to do those traditional in quotes roles in the family? Is it changing? Yes,

Samta Datta: it is. But you know, the more things change, the more they remain the same. So what is happening is, and I think that's happening over the, all across the world is if you were going to be put to the point where you have to work all through your life and you know, make careers as bright as your spouse, then more and more couples are not willing to have, you know, the next generation more and more, you know, so you will cut corners somewhere. You will have to because at the end of the thread, that is the limited energy that you live with. You cannot, you know, you cannot you, I mean, I mean that's what I'm seeing as a, as a, as a. I could be again very wrong, very right here. But it's, it's the mix of how the society is changing all across. And what do you think? What do you, do you think that is also something that you see in the west? There's a huge

Joanne Lockwood: momentum, if you like, to allow women, I hate that word allow or to promote women and to make sure that women have opportunities. But there's still this fundamental. You can't have everything. If you want to have children, you are the one who has children. If you want to have a family, then you want to enjoy that part of your life. You want to enjoy your children, you want to nurture them and celebrate them. If you want to have a career, you have to make that choice. If you don't care. If we go back to that authenticity, that brand, who are you? And there should be nothing wrong with being a parent, being a mother, being a father, being however you identify yourself. Absolutely. I wanted to put that first. But there, there's, there seems to be this belief you have to choose and you cannot be a successful career woman who puts her family first. In many cases, you know, there are obviously examples where people could do that. But in the majority, women have to choose still. And you're right, you're right, that's the challenge. And, but that's also programmed into you from a very early age as well. It's ingrained. And men go out to work and bring money in. Women sort the house out and the, the home and the family. Men can go off and do what they want for most of their life knowing full well that there's a, the mother, for one of a better phrase, is, is at home doing the work. Of course, you know, we got, we have same sex couples, we have two females, two men, non binary people, all different sorts of families out there. But fundamentally one person has to have assumes the responsibility for prime parent, if you like.

Samta Datta: Yep. You know, it's so interesting that you bring this up because I think yesterday I was reading that Japan has, I think next year they're starting on to make the weekend a three day weekend because they want their population to kind of have more children and they want to give the younger generation a little more time and not be stressed out about work. So yeah, yeah, you know it. I think we are coming to a point where we are letting people, at least most of us are trying to let people be as they want to be. You choose your, you choose who you want to be. And yeah, while I'm sure there will be struggles on the way, I think. We look at lockdown and Covid and

Joanne Lockwood: work from home and isolation as a stressful time for many. But also it did teach a lot of people that work could be done differently. You can have a life, you don't have to spend two hours commuting, you don't have to spend all this time in the office. You can slice your day up into bits, you can look after your children, you could do three hours work, you could look after your children a bit, you could do three more hours, you could do three hours in the evening. So you could slice your work up in different ways. I think the frustration is that the world seems to be trying to revert back to the old way, the male way. They have to be in the office way, the sort of incumbent methodology that you can only succeed by being here, sort of, sort of mantra. I think that's what we're losing all of a sudden. You know, all these things we learned through Covid, we've, We're suddenly forgetting again. What do you think is

Samta Datta: and what do you think is the consequence of that? I think it removes flexibility.

Joanne Lockwood: I think, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to dictate to anybody about how you should work, when you should work. But what I'd like to see is people have. Feel empowered to understand how they perform best, when they perform best, whether that's working alone, working a team, working with people. And we started by talking at the beginning about connection and getting energy from each other. So I fully appreciate that we need to be able to get energy from people. So if we are living alone, it's not necessarily healthy to work alone as well. But if you have a strong family, you have a strong community, you can get all the energy you need from your community, from the people around you and work doesn't have to be the provider of that energy. So I think what we need to do is we need to think about what is important. Yeah. And going back to the office and working and commuting doesn't have to be the only answer. But then we try and create this environment of fairness. Well, if I have to come into the office, you have to come in, we all have to come in, treat everyone the same. Whereas if we can recognise people have different skills, different strengths, neurodiversity, different needs, emotional connections or even living environment, then we can, then we can create a world where people can consume and contribute in the way that works best for them. I think that's what we're losing. We're trying to go back to a one size fits. It's all frustrating if you like it is, it is. But an anti trend to that that I'm seeing

Samta Datta: is that the younger generations are redefining what success looks like for them. They are not buying into the old idea of success and they are redefining it. So if you may say the gig economy or the way that we want to work. And I think that's very fundamental to how you operate. You know, the process. I mean working four day or five day or working in a corporation or as a freelance. I mean all of that is fundamentally coming from how we have defined success in our own heads and how we chase after all of that. But the younger generation is opening that up and saying I'm not going to subscribe to how you hand me down the rules of success because I'm going to make it my way and I'm going to make tools around it that and I'm going to make take a lot more technological support for it. And I'm not going to judge you or judge anyone who take technological support or think them. They are defining the successes on their own terms. They are not taking a hand me down approach of the success parameters. And which is great because they are coming with new ways. They're supported by their technology, they're supported by tools that makes their life easier. They can travel and work from anywhere. They can earn money without reporting to a certain structure. They can be much more community, they can put themselves out there. And that's the new way of, the new way that the next generation has defined success.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I completely agree. I look at my daughter and she has a job, her husband has a job. But they also, they're setting up their own online shop, they're starting to push other staff, they buy and sell clothing on online stores, they've got their own fashion brands, they're pushing out. And it's just what they do today. You can create a global business from an iPad in a bedroom without anything else. Something I couldn't have done when I was younger because you didn't have the access to market. But now we've got all the tools, graphics, design, branding, we've got Marketplace, we've got Instagram, we've got social media, we've got all these different products.

Samta Datta: And certainly the good part is, I mean I would say that my generation, I would say is still being judged on being using these tools and using the support that we get from technology. But my generation is judging the same generation using this much support. But I mean I'm like they're getting a year's job done in a month, so what's the problem here? And they don't want to work 240 days in 365 days. They want to work much less. And yeah, why not? I mean I'm

Joanne Lockwood: nearly 60 and I'm embracing this New technology. I'm embracing new ways of working because I don't want to do work all day, I, all night. And I want to rapidly build something and get to market with something really quickly. So yeah, and I use the tools I can. I, I embrace AI and some of the other startups. I'm a great believer in looking around for different solutions and if I can shave a corner off, if I can get quicker from A to B, I'm going to do that. I think in times

Samta Datta: we should remove, I don't know, but we should remove the shame of using technology to its optimum. I'm like a lot of chat, GDP writers or self. I mean, they shouldn't. I mean, you know, classically, if you haven't thought of a thought, it's not your thought. You know, that approach is, does not find its way through this generation. No.

Joanne Lockwood: And it's hard to have original thought. Even when you do, you Google it and you figure out someone else has already had that thought, then you don't know whether it was your thought in the first place or you'd heard it from somebody else or you'd seen it somewhere. So where is original thought? We look at the world and civilizations have all evolved in very similar ways with similar outcomes, yet not connected. You know, the wheel was invented by everybody, not by one person. Housing, roofing, cooking, all evolved independently in different parts of the world, with different flavours, different spices. But fundamentally, as a human species, we evolved through great ideas. So who has the first thought? It's hard to say who to say exactly. So I think it's how it's. I always believe it's how you interpret it. Your spin, your brand, your beliefs, you know, all the things we talked about earlier. Your character, whatever you bring to it, how I give you my thought, you know you talked about psychological safety earlier. Yeah, I talk about psychological safety from my perspective and I give you my view of it. Fundamentally, it's still the same thing, the concept, but how I. The story I tell, the feeling, I give you the angle, I come up with. That's my bit of it. Based on another idea. If that's all chatgpt, that's how AI is doing it, then you just gotta take that and put your personality on top. Sam, it's been an absolutely fascinating hour. We could talk. We could talk. It's. I'm looking you on video here. I can see it's got dark. When we started talking, it was daylight. So, yeah, look at it. You're six or seven hours ahead of me. I think so, yeah. It's just after lunch for me but early evening for you. So how can people get a hold of you? They can

Samta Datta: get hold of me on my Instagram and LinkedIn. That's where I'm at. Or they can write to me at 'SamtaDatta'. That's my first name and second name together '@gmail.com'. i talk about brands, marketing people building and personal brands and I train as well. So that's where I'm at. Samta

Joanne Lockwood: Datta is S-A-M-T-A and then data is D-A-T-T-A. Yeah, yeah, Fantastic. I'll put your LinkedIn and Instagram on the profile and the in the show notes. So if you're looking for that, people should just reach out and have a connect. Is that okay? Absolutely. I'm

Samta Datta: here to help everybody. Sam, it's been fascinating.

Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. Absolutely has been fascinating. Thank you so much for your time and

Samta Datta: this lovely interaction. As we bring

Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bytes and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.