--- title: "Battlefield To Boardroom" episode: 143 date: 2025-01-16 guest: "Tarun Kumar" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/143-battlefield-to-boardroom audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-143/audio.mp3 --- # Battlefield To Boardroom Joanne Lockwood speaks with former army officer and leadership coach Taran Kumar about his journey from hospitality into the military, and later into the corporate world. Taran describes what drew him into service, the selection process, and the leadership lessons he learned by leading troops in extreme environments. He recounts a high-altitude conflict in which he was seriously wounded, the realities of survival and decision-making under pressure, and the recovery process that followed. The experience reshaped his outlook, deepening his empathy and reinforcing the value of trust, morale, and shared purpose. Bringing those lessons into the boardroom, Taran contrasts military cohesion with corporate environments where distrust, competition, and poor cross-department communication can undermine performance. He argues for more inclusive structures that value so-called non-revenue roles, involve people across levels in planning, and create space to challenge plans before execution. Through practical analogies—from football, chess, and security during the pandemic—he offers a clear case for building teams where everyone is recognised as essential to long-term success. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:00 — India took time overcoming its colonial mindset. - 09:28 — Self-reliance critical for national defence integrity. - 15:23 — Believe in many gods, one ultimate superpower. - 18:56 — Culture and faith overcome resistance to change. - 25:00 — Trust grew after volunteering for dangerous operations. - 27:08 — Maintain morale, injuries unaware in subzero conditions. - 33:00 — Unsure of injuries, splinters found, lucky. - 41:04 — Military skills' relevance in corporate world challenging. - 45:48 — Reduce expenditure, utilise internal resources, timely action. - 53:10 — Overproduction caused warehousing costs and losses. - 56:03 — Team discusses, challenges, and resolves plan together. - 59:51 — Diverse approaches enhance participation and appeal. ## Key takeaways - The challenge of demonstrating the relevance of military skills in the corporate world and overcoming initial struggles. - Observations on corporate culture, including issues with trust, teamwork, and communication across hierarchies and departments. - The crucial yet often undervalued roles of non-revenue generating departments and their impact on organisational success. - The chess game analogy to highlight how every role within a company, no matter how small, is essential for achieving overall objectives. - The necessity of personal belief and progression within an organisation and how fostering this mindset can drive growth. - The benefits of cross-vertical involvement for team-building, ensuring every domain contributes to the company's goals. - The need for economic independence to strengthen military power and the importance of maintaining sovereignty during crises. ## FAQs ### Who is the guest on this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast? The guest is Taran Kumar, a former army officer, battle survivor, leadership coach, and startup mentor. ### What injuries did Taran Kumar sustain, and how did he recover? Taran Kumar sustained multiple injuries, including one that lodged between his heart and ribs. Remarkably, he healed within 25 days despite being discharged against medical advice. His approach included maintaining a positive mindset and an eagerness to return to normal activities. ### How did Taran Kumar transition from a military career to the corporate world, and what challenges did he face? Taran found it challenging to translate his military skills into the corporate sector beyond traditional roles like security consultancy. He observed significant issues in corporate culture, such as a lack of trust and cohesive teamwork, which were starkly different from the military environment where clear communication and coordinated efforts were paramount. ### What key points did Taran Kumar make about corporate culture during the podcast? Taran stressed that corporate culture often suffers from poor communication of goals and a lack of collaboration between departments. He highlighted how non-revenue generating departments, though crucial, are frequently undervalued. Taran advocates for inclusivity and teamwork over a sole focus on profitability. ### How does Taran Kumar draw parallels between corporate roles and a game of chess? Taran compares corporate roles to chess pieces, where each role, regardless of perceived importance, is crucial for the organisation's overall success. Just as every chess piece has its significance, every employee contributes to the company's achievements. ### What strategies did Taran use to lead effectively in the military, and how do they translate to corporate environments? Taran prioritised his troops' faith and adapted to their needs, fostering a strong bond and unity. In the corporate world, he applies this by promoting inclusivity and valuing every team member's role. This leadership style, focused on genuine care and support, helps build trust and reduce deceit amongst team members. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 143 with the title, Back and Field to Boardroom. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Taran Kumar. Taran is a former army officer and battle survivor. He is now a leadership coach and start up mentor who inspires professionals and organisations to unlock their potential. When I asked Darren to describe his superpower, he said that it is transforming adversity into opportunity by empowering individuals to lead with purpose and resilience. Hello, Darren. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Joanne, for Taran Kumar: inviting me to this lovely platform of yours. Pleasure is all mine. And you're tapped everywhere in the world Joanne Lockwood: you are. You're in India. Is that right? Taran Kumar: Absolutely. Nowadays, India is in the talks. And I come from a place called Ahmedabad, which happens to be the city from where our prime minister Narendra Modi comes. And it's a beautiful part of the world. You must visit once to India because that is something which should be there on your bucket list. It is. It is. I've, Joanne Lockwood: ticked off Melbourne, Australia, and the south coast of Australia, and I I need to explore more of Asia. And, India is definitely up there on the list. Yes. India is a very Taran Kumar: diverse country. We have so many languages, so many different cultures, and that's why we call our country to be a perfect example of unity in diversity. And as a country, you've gone through a massive Joanne Lockwood: transformation over the last 50 or so years post colonial. And you've got a new country up, really, aren't you? In fact, you know, every country that comes out of a Taran Kumar: colonial mindset takes time for that thing to get over. And India was no exception for that. However, our forefathers, the people, those who fought for the independence of our country, they had a grand vision about India. And they ensured that we carry out our progress through something which is so keen and that we discussed that in this diverse world, there should be a lot of inclusivity. And we started including the industrial revolution, how the factories would come up. India was once upon a time known as in our lingo, we call it as a bird, which was made of gold. And that's why Columbus, Vasco da Gama, they all came to India just to explore this beautiful country and know, and that's why we got invaded also. So it is no exception, but then when people plunder, they loot, they do not leave you in the right stage or right state. And it takes almost couple of generations for a country to revive itself. And now we are on an upwardly mobile phase. I can assure you that, we are progressing by leaps and bounds, making our impact felt on the world and being a very peaceful nation. You will find that we have friends almost everywhere across the world. You're the fastest growing economy in the world. Is that Yes. It's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. We are the fastest growing economy, and it is certainly related to the population that we have. So we can do lot of in house consumption. And at the same time, we have the ability to support other countries. Today, we are growing in agriculture. Today, we are supporting other countries through technology. Indian brains, you know, they are ruling most of the top notch technology companies, Johan. What do you say? No. I've I've seen Joanne Lockwood: the rise of of Indian expertise over the last 20, 30 years. At one stage, we were outsourcing to you, and now you you have the expertise and you're selling it back to us. Taran Kumar: Yes. So life has taken a complete circle. I would say that. And now there is a value exchange that is happening. People in our country, they are pretty serious in whatever they do. It's not only about fun. It is about value addition. And that is something which is very intrinsic to Indians in one way or the other. All five fingers are not the same. So you may happen to have interaction with some who are not aligned to this thought, but majority of people you'll find when they're working for corporations or when they're leading, heading these corporations, their entire focus is on growing that organization. And when you grow, your own growth automatically happens. From my understanding, India has Joanne Lockwood: a very hierarchical society with the caste system and different structures and hierarchy within the population. Is that something that's evolving away, or is that still quite rigid? Taran Kumar: No. In fact, that is how it has been projected. We are very open. You know, every society has got certain castes. Every society has got certain people who are supposed to perform certain tasks in the olden days. And those profession, they still continue because that is how they get recognized in the society. So India was no exception to that rule. And somehow people, they inched up the ladder. They were not standing static wherever they were about 100 years back. But the way the narrative was built up, I would say, Juwon, that was not in line with the actual picture that India represents. So we are pretty open about lot of things. And, yes, in certain parts, I would not be hesitating in accepting that, this particular problem persists, but then there are givers and takers everywhere. So there would be naysayers who would not agree to everything that's happening right. So they would like, same thing to continue. But, yes, India is changing in a big way and come what may, whatever the world may say, we are no longer the same, country of snake charmers or the country of elephant riders or the whatever way people used to talk about it. We are now a technological power. But you're a, space superpower blasting of Joanne Lockwood: satellites, planning moon missions, everything. So yeah. Taran Kumar: Yes. In fact, the Indian Space Research Organization has grown by leaps and bounds. It is such a satisfying feeling to say that over a period of time, we were dependent on the developed nations for our surveillance, for our weather forecasting and other things. And especially when it comes to defending the sovereignty of your country. And that is the time, most of the people, those who were in power, they realized that we ought to have our own systems. And because of a non aligned nature today, whatever we are doing is purely for the growth of the country. Mhmm. If being a military man, I can tell you that my interests are not expansionist in nature. If you are not coming onto my toes. But if you push me, then I must have the ability to push you back. In the modern world, in our connective world, in our Joanne Lockwood: technology dependent world, we need GPS. We need accurate time signals, which is delivered by GPS. We need Internet connectivity. And I guess India is no different. You have to have control of those assets yourself. Otherwise, you're dependent on other people. No. That is that is very important for your own Taran Kumar: survival. Otherwise, in the event of some kind of, I would say calamity, in the event of some kind of, problem with your neighbors and somebody else is controlling and all your equipment goes haywire or it is not giving you the right inputs, your entire military effort would go in vain. So it is very important for any nation to be self reliant on these aspects. Then only you can defend yourself. When you do not have this kind of a fear that what if in the event of something going not the way you have designed and somebody stops this data coming to you? Because most of your equipment is data driven. Most of your long range weaponry system is all about how do you fix those coordinates? And those coordinates, how do you get you get them through these GPSs, through satellites? And this concept Joanne Lockwood: of single time is is critically important. You've got to be within millionth of a microsecond accurate. Otherwise, all business transactions, banking transactions all time. Everything goes for a 6. Everything goes for Taran Kumar: a 6. And over a period of time, we have realized one more thing. And that is your economic independence determines your military might. If you're economically superior and you want to maintain that independence of yours, you ought to have a strong military and not the other way around. So that is very important for us. Help help me. I'm curious Joanne Lockwood: here. If I think about the UK, North America, maybe even the US, And I think about some of the challenges that businesses and society face from an inclusion perspective. Yeah. We think about gender. We think about ethnicity, race. We think about disability. We think about LGBTQ plus as kind of the big high level things. What do you think are the challenges within your own country, economy and commerce around that? Well, I would say that there is a Taran Kumar: presence of differences within given settings, whether it is concerning race, gender, age, sexual orientation, disability. But then at the same time, we are open to the inclusive opportunity that the same environment extends. It's about creating a space where any individual or group can or feel welcomed, respected, supported, valued. They can participate fully in the nation building process. And that is so important for the growth of any community organization or nation for that matter. So we are no different. Yes. There are certain challenges. There are certain challenges in terms of, I would say, the legal provisions, which are existing, because obviously we are an offshoot of the colonial era. However, we are also open to amending those laws. We are open to accepting these people into the mainstream because ultimately we cannot grow if we are not having participation from all walks of society. Joanne Lockwood: So you've got many, many states. I think would you say 39 states or 30 20 29 states. You've got a a large number of different languages and different religions. Is there a is there a kind of historical pecking order, priority, privilege amongst language, amongst where you come from in the in within the continent or the religion you have? Is there an inherent power base amongst certain languages and religions? Well, no. When the Taran Kumar: Indian Constitution was enshrined, although at not that point in time, but later on, the word secular got incorporated into the Indian constitution and we still maintain it. We have a larger population base of Hindus, but then Hinduism, apart from being a religion, it is a way of life. It is, we are very tolerant in our outlook. We celebrate every festival with the same fervor and without any malice, without any doubt that we love celebrating festivals. We love celebrating the thing called human evolution on this planet. And for that, I have to enjoy what my neighbors are doing. I cannot be jealous of when they are celebrating and only be concerned about my own celebrations. I cannot be thinking that whatever they believe in is not right. I have to understand why do they believe in that thing? And is there a way I can learn from their perspective? And that is what Hindus do. In fact, you will not find any Hindus who are out in this world converting the rest of the population. Give me one instance of people from Hindu religion or the Hindu way of life. People themselves come and they love that feeling. They love that joy. They love that freedom. They love that oneness with the nature, with the God because of which they say that I would love to be an ISKCON devotee or I would like to be doing Hari Rama, Hari Krishna, whatever. These are all, you know, we have got more than 33,000 gods and none of us is forced to follow 1 God. Means I can I follow so many gods because ultimately we believe in one thing that there is one supreme and something that keeps us all in a state in which we are when things are there, which we do not understand, how do we try and understand them? By saying that there is some superpower which is controlling all these things. Otherwise, we are trying to control most of the things. We are trying to, do the DNA understanding. We are trying to do how we can build embryos in the deep state, cryogenic things means we are trying to, interfere with the way the God has created this planet. Because we want to understand that, and that is where our inquisitively lies. Today, there is a lot of questions that are being asked on artificial intelligence. Whether it is right or wrong means whether it will overtake the human race or not. Why? Because there are so many things which we do not comprehend. We do not know whether they are going to be a bane or boon. And that is so important for us to understand that in our iterative process, if things go right, we take the credit. If things go wrong, then whom do we blame for? Then we say that, oh, God. Yeah. God is the, excuse for things going wrong. But I Joanne Lockwood: think that's beautiful. I think, as you said, you're not trying to convert people. You're saying, this is us. Come with us if you wish. Yes. Celebrate with us. Come and visit. Whatever. It it it it's not a you say, you're not trying to instruct people, but just Yeah. Exemplify being a good human. We we don't tell them that my religion is superior to Taran Kumar: yours. We never say that. We always accept that there must be something good if you're following in your religion. I would love to understand that. I have studied in a Christian school, but then that was my way of getting exposed to that particular community. And it never interfered with my belief. And being a military man, I understand one thing, Joanne, and that is the religion of my troops is my religion. I do not own my religion or I do not wear my religion on my shoulders. I always follow the faith that my soldiers follow because that is something that binds us together. So if I happen to command a Muslim unit, then I will read namaz with them. I will not shy away from doing it. I will not say that. No, this is not right. Or this is not correct. Or they are infidels. No, I will follow whatever, because my ultimate goal is to bind with my people and face the common challenge that is there in front of us. But when it comes to me praying to the God in my own private space, then I'm free to do whatever I feel like. I think Joanne Lockwood: that your your leadership mantra that you've just explained in there is is very powerful. Too often, we find leaders want to dictate the culture of how their their team should be. And what you're doing is advocating the leader adapting to the culture of the team and enriching that rather than dictating that. You know, there is always a resistance to change, and Taran Kumar: there is a management theory about it. Why I'm talking about which is the bigger force out here. It is the culture which is already prevailing. So as a leader, you are 1. As officers, you are just a handful, but your soldiers are far too many. So what is important is that I understand where the faith of my soldiers lie. And it is in the most difficult circumstances I have seen that it is this faith which helps you come back from the brink of defeat just by believing in that faith, by holding on to that faith, which is not just by held by a thin hair. And that is that can change the way we look at life and death. We look at success and defeat, and it is so important for us to understand that ultimately, what is important for me is that my team, our purpose should win. And as long as that purpose is for the larger good of the organization nation and not for the selfish ulterior motives, it's always superior to any other force. You you mentioned you're a military man, and we've Joanne Lockwood: called this episode, the battlefield to boardroom. What got you into the military originally? And what what were you doing? What was your trade or profession? Okay. So Taran Kumar: I was a hotelier. I did my hotel management and I was working in a luxury hotel. And while I was going around this hotel business, I was a sales executive. I used to sell my property and interact with big business houses, tell them that why they should come. And, Jun, if we go back 35 years in time, hotel industry was not everyone's cup of tea. It was a privilege of very few and 80% of the people who were using 5 star hotels, luxury hotels, they were from very affluent backgrounds. And the corporates used to frequent these hotels and getting them on board, staying in a hotel where you're, you would be charging them know about $100 a night. Those days was a big ask. So you can imagine that while doing all these things and being successful. Lot of time we used to have internal discussion and, I was a little bit of a gymming kind of a guy. Not too much into gymming, but I had a good built and other things. I used to play a lot of sports, football, especially. So my colleagues used to say that, why don't you join army? So that propelled me to appear for the most difficult exam. That is the Union Public Service Commission exam. And I did not prepare for it. I just went applied for it. And during my, I would say I took a vacation. I took leave. I went on the weekend. I appeared for that exam. Luckily, I got through. And then I cleared the most difficult part of the selection process that is called as SSB. SSB stands for service selection board, and that is considered to be the toughest psychological, physical, and a mental challenge that one has to go through. And if you make it there, then in fact, most of the corporates, you'll find it that Deloitte, the big fours, they take, veterans directly into their streams. They don't go through multiple levels of interviews. Why? Because they have already gone through that kind of thing when they were inducted into the army or the armed forces. So I went through that. I think that was the best decision that I took because it opened up vistas of opportunity. I could play sports. I could get into adventure. I could fire. I could skid. It means you ask me, I, you could do anything. The sky was the limit, whatever you wanted to follow your dream, you could do it there. You wanted to be a sailor. You wanted to navigate the world. You wanted to swim across the English Channel. Means you just have to opt for it. And then you realize that most of the time, we are limited in our expression of things because of our limiting beliefs. And that was the big game changer. And when I got injured, when I was mortally wounded, I realized that how life passes through you. And I was a youngster. I was just about in my mid twenties. So it had a very profound effect on me. And thereafter I realized that I have to do something meaningful. So obviously when you come back from such encounters for good or for the bad, you change. I take it that I probably changed for the good because my outlook towards life changed a lot. I became more understanding, more empathetic, more relatable to people because I had seen that what happens when you are very coarse in your dealing with people. You're very selfish in your dealing with people. You're very, very limited in your outlook when dealing with people. You're always eyeing them with suspicion that probably they may be lying. What if they are not lying and they're asking you the right thing? But then I do not have any ability to measure that. My only ability is to give them an opportunity and prove themselves wrong. So I tried doing that. And over a period of time, you have a spoken reputation that this particular officer genuinely helps people. So my soldiers, they stopped lying to me when it came to applying for leave and all those things. This started in fact, when I volunteered for a difficult operation and I went to my Pelton and I said that I wanted these many people who could volunteer for a small team operation, I was so blessed when 5 people raise their hands. You know, it imposes that kind of confidence in you as a young captain That when you're going for a operation where you are not too sure whether you would come back alive or not, at least out of a company strength, there are 5 people who are willing to go with you. And it is a big ask. Today, if I ask somebody, would you be willing to lose $500 for me? I think many people won't do it. Although they know it that even if they lose it, they have ample opportunity to make those $500 back. But we can't talk in the same vein about life. Once life is gone, you can't get it back. One bullet and you're gone. Joanne Lockwood: Just wind back what you what you said. I've picked up on it that you, you said mortally wounded. Clearly, you you you didn't die, but, you were significantly wounded in in a battlefield setting. Is that is that right? Absolutely. Do you wanna can you tell me a bit about the conflict or the circumstance or or how you were injured? Are you are you happy to talk about that? Yes. Yes. Why Taran Kumar: not? Actually a couple of days back, we were in a high altitude area sitting at about close to 20,000 feet. Life was very difficult out there. And then there were a lot of eyeball to eyeball contact and firing was going on and a lot of things were happening. And in this melee, a day prior, one of our post was attacked, and one of our post officer was mortally wounded. He did not survive. So we were having that kind of a retaliatory shoot and all those things. And, you know, in the military, it is very important to keep the morale motivation of your boys alive. You have to get back in some time frame or the other. Otherwise, your, soldier just start feeling at a lower ebb. So we were doing that. And while doing it, especially when you're fighting at subzero temperatures, what happens is if you get hit, till such time somebody doesn't tell you that the blood is oozing out or something you don't get to know. So I was had multiple injuries and luckily, splinter went through my shoulder and got lodged between my heart and the ribs. 1 was bang on my spinal cord and there were multiple there on my right portion of the body. And the best part was every time I was trying to make an effort, the blood would come out. And the moment it got connected to the environment, which was subzero, it would freeze. So and we were at an isolated post where we were just I was there with my the small team of myself and 3 more soldiers. I could not vacate that post. So only one person walked with me. And especially if you're walking after a day's break, you know, in the snow, you go almost thigh deep because snow has become very soft. So every time you're taking a step, your thigh goes inside. And I had to get down almost 2,000 feet below to the point where the next post was. And from there, people would have come and evacuated me further to get down to that post because I was in a position and the firing was still going on. I had to walk and walking at those altitudes with these kind of injuries was an herculean task. You've got Joanne Lockwood: the cold, you've got the lack of oxygen, you've got the terrain, and you've got incoming enemy fire. Absolutely. Taran Kumar: Everything was against you. And yet you have to go down because if you stay there long enough, you might get into a position from where bringing you back to a position from where you can get evacuated would be just next to impossible because later in the night, the wind starts blowing. It's almost like freezing to death temperatures. And if the blizzard goes out and you will lose your way, you might get into the enemy territory rather than going into your own territory because everything is white. So it's so difficult and your ropes, whichever you have, where you can hold them and get down, they all get covered with snow. So you lose out on so much. So you want to make it back. And certainly, we all want to live. So there is no denying that fact. So I came down to that post, and then I was made to sit on a stretcher. They offered me some juices and other things to make up for the fluid loss. And then a body of troops of about 8 soldiers, they carried me because now from that altitude, once we come down, the biggest challenge in the glaciated terrain is that there would be a lot of crevasses. And if you have survived under the under the Joanne Lockwood: snowfall, you you do the snow step on it. You don't know You don't know Taran Kumar: how far would you go. So those are the kind of challenges where you have to come out of. And it is really remarkable. And that's why it is so important. And I always talk about this thing that those people, they never knew me. The people, those who were down below, they were not from my regiment. They were not from my body of troops. But the only threat that binded us together were, was that we were from the same uniform. And that is what I always tell people that in the military, when people ask me that how you people bind so well together, I say that we are all brothers from different mothers. Or sisters from another mister. They also say, yeah. That's Absolutely. Very, very powerful. I mean, I just whilst you're talking now, I Joanne Lockwood: was Googling away next to me. So you are operating at around 20,000 feet. Everest, as an example, is 29,000 feet, if I were to know. And base camp is about 17 a half 1000 feet at Everest. So you are operating 2 a half 1000 feet above the level of Everest base camp Mhmm. In a hostile battle environment, in the snow. This is not and in all in all these conditions, trying to live and survive. Yes. And there's no other alternative. Taran Kumar: You have to. And the most important thing is that when as a young commander, you have 3 soldiers who are looking up to you. They may be much more elder to you in age, but when it comes to the leadership, they are looking up to you. And that is where the test of time comes. And you have to rise like phoenix from the ashes. Means you give them whatever you can learn from them, but still they will look up to you. And if you're not there, they will feel lost. You're you're injured. Joanne Lockwood: As you said, you've got shrapnel lodged between your shoulder blades, your ribs, your heart. You've got something in your back. You're dripping blood. The blood's freezing, and you've got to get off the mountain. You've got to get down to a level before there's any chance of rescue. What's going through your mind? Are you how's your mind set at that point? Is it survival mode? Is it worry, panic? How are you coping mentally? One thing was very clear, Taran Kumar: Joanne, and that was that if I have lived so far, probably I will live another day. The only thing is that I was not too sure of the kind of internal injuries that were caused. What kind of things were happening inside? How far deep the damage was? Means what I'm telling you was something which I got to know when I was evacuated by an helicopter from the base camp. And when my x-ray was done, that is the time when the doctor told me that there is a splinter lodged between these places. And you were lucky. And it is just that right in the beginning, I've shared it with you. At that point in time, when the blood was oozing out and my body was aching, I was not too sure. I had pulled out these splinters and these metal pieces from my body, which were visible to me, but there were couple of them which were not. And I was not too sure how the damage was or how deep the internal injuries were and how fatal those were going to be. And yes, when you start losing blood at these altitudes where your heart in any case is pumping at a much faster rate because of the altitude effect. There is a certain thing that happens. So if you are not in your right senses, if you're not keeping yourself happy, gay, and probably in this kind of survival mode that I am going to sail through these difficult times. You'll realize that mostly people, they don't die of injuries. They more or less die of the shock effect. So I was aware of those things and I was trying to keep myself motivated. I was singing. I was humming something. I was doing all kinds of antics. Probably people were thinking that he's going through, he's hallucinating or something. But the only thing that was there in my mind was that will I be able to meet my parents? Will I be able to meet my fiance? Will I be able to live my life hereafter? You're in the helicopter. You finally feel a sense Joanne Lockwood: of safety and relief that you're you know, the helicopter Taran Kumar: came the next day. Because in the nighttime, in the glaciated terrain, there is no flying because everything is white. Yes. So it's only during the daytime when you can light a candle and they can see the smoke coming. And then they will be able to land. But in the nighttime, it's so difficult. So I had to sail through the night, and I got injected 2 injections of morphine. Otherwise, one injection is good enough to put you to sleep. They say that they generally give 2 a 2 to an elephant. So at that point in time, I was in such an heightened state of anxiety, or whatever that The adrenaline, Joanne Lockwood: your fight, flight. Was there. I was fighting. Taran Kumar: I mean, somewhere deep within, I was not letting myself go off to sleep or rest properly because I was fearing probably if I'll close my eyes, probably I'll close them forever. Maybe that fear was there at the back of my mind without knowing the impact that was happening. So I was fighting from inside not to get, and the second injection was given by the doctor when we reached the base camp. The first injection was given at the place where I came down. The second injection was given by the doctor at that place. And then he said that brother sleep because I am not supposed to give you the 3rd injection. That could be fatal. So, but then this is how our human body and the human mind is. We behave very differently at times erratically. Or even if it makes some sense to us, others may not get that sense because what is going through us is happening in a split of a second. And we are trying to understand a lot of information, collate that information and try and understand that. And the survival instinct is at its peak. So you want to live another day and probably fight a successful battle another day. How long was the recovery? So you must have done some Joanne Lockwood: physiotherapy, some rehabilitation. You were Yes. In a bed for a while? Well, the moment I was taken to Taran Kumar: the hospital, there was a field hospital at the base camp. So the doctor said that we have to perform your surgeries here. Actually, these metal objects which are inside, they have the potential of spreading. So they don't want the infection spreading in the body because there is gunpowder. There is a lot of things which are there inside you, and they wanted to take out those metal, objects. And the other thing was that in high altitude area, Joanne, the recovery is very slow because there is lack of oxygen. So in the absence of oxygen, you'll find that what happened is that one injury was in the joint where my thumb and the rest of the four fingers where we actually have a grip, which helps us grip. So there, I had an injury where it had pierced through. So they were joking and telling me that now you'll not be requiring a cup and a saucer. You can drink your tea from this place itself. But another important aspect they told me was that they would not like to stitch this place. Because if they stitch this place, if they put, the stitches out here, then the movement of my thumb and the ability to grip will get restricted. I'll I'll may not be able to fire again very effectively, hold the weapon very effectively. And later on in life, because we are not going to be in army forever. So when we come out of army, it will also impede in our other activities. What they did was that from my thighs, there was skin grafting that was done at that altitude itself by the doctor, the surgeon. However, I was there for almost a month taking antibiotics to the tune of almost, 8 injections every day, and they were painful. And they were given to us through that intravenous. So when you were sleeping and when somebody would be injecting that intravenous, no. So it was, like, almost cold. So it was such a painful thing, no, that cold injection getting into your bloodstream that you'll get up. But the important thing was that after 1 month, doctor told me that either you're going to live with this injury forever or some miracle is going to happen. So I requested him. I said that I've already spent considerable time at this altitude. And I think now I'm fit to travel. So how about discharging me and let me go and get back to the normal playing fields and probably some recovery would happen? He said, yes. That's a good idea. And they recommended my discharge. Although the level of recuperation that the injuries have done was very minimal. But against all advice, they said that probably that is the only best option available, and you won't believe it. Within 25 days down below, most of my injuries got healed. And today, people only look at the scar, and they feel that what is this nasty scar that you have at the base of your thumb between the joints that plays? But as you can see, and as you can, my hands are perfectly fine. And I can hold the weapon. I can fire. I can throttle somebody. I can do whatever I can do. The steering of a wheel, I can catch hold of a stick. Otherwise, all these activities would have got badly impacted. Eventually, you you left the Joanne Lockwood: army, the forces, and now you're working with businesses and using your prior battlefield and army and service career to sort of influence how you work in the business world. Is that right? Yes. What happened is when I Taran Kumar: was trying to find my own sweet spot in this corporate world, there was a lot of learning that had come out with. Now the most difficult part for any military man is how it is relevant to the corporate world. I was also grappling with the same thing because in the military, everything is pretty much understandable. But in the corporate world, what I've seen is that people, they struggle to understand that. How can I make use of this military man? What can I give him? And most of us, we end up doing no as a security consultant, close protection, this, that, but I can be used in so many ways. You know, the biggest challenge that corporates have is that they do not have a culture of trust and teamwork. I have seen that at very close quarters. Everybody who's working out there, they want to get over each other. They will not hesitate by pulling the rug under their colleague's carpet. They can stab somebody in their back. They can do almost everything unthinkable, which otherwise people won't do just to progress themselves in their civilian career or in their organization. Because one man's meat is another man's poison. There are very limited vacancies. There are very limited space. And hence the only way you can do it is not by projecting yourself in the right light, but by hook or by crook. So you will not hesitate by taking someone else's credit. Someone has put in the hard work, but in the end, you'll show it as your own. You'll do all those nasty things. And then your organization is saying that we would like to be a fortune 500 or a fortune 100 company. How can you be that with this kind of a work culture? And you you use the word culture there, and that that's it comes down Joanne Lockwood: to that as well where we often, in a diverse group of people, we tend to be, as you were saying, pulling in different directions where your background in the battlefield is you're pulling together for one common purpose, to stay alive Yes. To achieve the objective or whatever it is. And we lose that in the civilian world where we're we bring our own our own needs into the room, if you like, rather than the collective need. In Taran Kumar: the corporate world, what happens is that there is a common goal. In the military also, there is a common goal. Unfortunately, in the military, I'm aware of what my, when I was a platoon commander, I knew what my commanding officer's goal was. In the corporate world, many a times, the production department doesn't know what challenges the sales department is having. In corporate world, many a times, the corporate vision is not passed down to the lowest player in the food chain of that corporate organization. And that is where the disconnect happens. Because you're only talking in your own comfortable groups where you feel you're relevant. But how do you percolate your message down to the people? How do you give them your vision where your company is going to be in next coming years? How do you tell people that this is what you are planning for them? There is no such communication that is happening. You are supposed to be coming there, spending your time, adding to the profitability of the company. That is your only goal. If you are not adding profitability to the company, you do not exist in their scheme of things. There are so many organizations which are I call them as, nonrevenue generating. They are the ones which are eating revenues, but they are so important for the growth of that organization. For example, let's take, HR, finance, security, but then you are not giving them their due. Over a period of time, people have started exerting themselves, and what was important was that how do you build an inclusive structure? You cannot say that they sit in the office, you know, we are the ones going out. It is not only about revenues, although somehow, it is a fallacy that most of the organizations, they only give lot of credence, lot of support to the verticals, which are generating revenues. I understand that revenue is the sole purpose or is very important in their entire scheme of things. But then there are other organizations who can equally help by reducing expenditure because they are the ones who are eating into expenditure. So there is one one person who is feeding everybody, but then other people, they have to also reduce their appetite. So if they can reduce their appetite, that also adds to revenue generation. How about doing that? So people don't understand that they can also look at revenue generation by inculcating technology, by using lot of things which are already existing rather than getting people from outside. Why don't you promote people from your own organization? Why are you not taking action in the right time frame before it's too late? Because once a person is gone, now your 6 month cycle is going to build. And within those 6 months, you will be losing a lot of revenue. There'll be a lot of pressure on other people. And in the bargain, they will also be leaving or quitting the jobs because they cannot handle that pressure. So if you had acted in the right time space, and that is so important, but then organizations, they don't look at it in that metrics. Their entire focus is on I should be generating more profitability. Profitability is important, but then there are n number of ways where you can reduce your expenses, and that also adds to your profitability. Yeah. I think it it's Joanne Lockwood: using a sporting analogy. You know, if you look at think of football, the person who scores the goal is not the best person to save the goal, to take the corners, to do the throw ins. And Yes. It's all about valuing people equally for for their skills that they bring to the party and not saying, well, I'm more important because I make something. Why more more important because I design something or I clean something up? It Yes. Like, you know, Taran Kumar: like, the example that you gave. In a football, striker is not very important. The team is important. Mhmm. If striker is not able to score, but your defense is not good, then you will end up getting lot of goals. And if the your opponent defense is good, how good your striker may be. If they are not letting him score goals, then you are on the losing end. So corporate must also understand that we are not alone in this organizational setup. We are working in a collaborative environment where every person is like a thing on a chessboard. You should know, you know, on the chessboard, what happens when you play the soldier, the soldier can go to the other end, and they can make the queen come alive. So that is the role these soldiers are playing. So if you use them appropriately, you can be in a very strong position over a period of time. So you have to shift your focus only from profitability to developing teams, developing a culture of fostering a culture of inclusivity from all ends so that people, they feel partnering in the growth of an organization and not feeling that when it comes to acknowledging their support in the organizational growth, they don't even get a mention. You mentioned chess and the soldier at the Joanne Lockwood: pawn as a piece. Some of it is about having the belief that you can become a queen one day. You're not sat on that back row. Everyone's jumping over the toy of you, running around the board. You know that if you put in the hard work, put in the focus that you can achieve, that's sometimes what holds us back. Isn't it? Jean, during pandemic, Taran Kumar: I happened to give a talk to a big multinational company. And my essence of talk was security is a game changer. Because when everything closed, the only people holding the fort were the security guys. Because your assets need to be protected. People stopped coming to offices. People stopped coming to their huge those workspaces. No? 40,000 square feet of space. It's all lying idle. And then it remained idle for almost a year plus, 18 months because there was a culture of work from home. And then the discussion started on whether we should continue with work from home or to do it. And so security people were working there. So I said that who's the first person when a visitor comes to any premises? Who's the first person that he engages with? So the VP, everybody said security. I said then when he's lost in the lobby, whom does he reach out to? They said security. I said, when he wants to get on a floor, whom does he reach out to? Security. When he's leaving the place, whom does he reach out to? Security. So security happens to be the first and the last point of contact with the visitor in a premise. And you are saying that security is not integral to your business continuity. Please rewrite your books. You go to Disneyland. Security is not just doing security. They're also acting as guides. They're also acting as navigating people where to go. They're also acting as information booth, walking information booth. People come and ask them, can you help me? I want to go this place. He'll say yes. Here's you have to go. So you cannot help them. Now imagine if that security person turns around and says, I'm supposed to be standing here. I'm not supposed to give you any information. Where do you get additional people from? You go to certain places, you'll find that security is doubling up, tripling up as multiple information, reception, everything means they are not sitting behind the reception, but they are doing almost everything that is to facilitate the work culture in that particular setup. And that is so important. Why can't we do it with other back of the house organizations or verticals? We can do with them also. We have to make them relevant into the whole scheme of things. We can't just neglect them. No, you're only supposed to do the bookkeeping of accounts. No, they can give you some valuable inputs about how finances should be held, how you are using your finances, how you have used it in the last quarter. What has been the progress in previous 5 years, how you can leverage that information to grow your business this year. This is the time when we grow business. This is the time we start developing our business because they have all the data that this is how the sales started increasing. And if you start deriving those datas and not letting it stay with the sales team or the product team. In fact, once during one such visit to a manufacturing facility, I realized that another good example that I'm sharing with you. The sales team had the capacity of selling x amount of products in a day and x amount of products in a month. However, Joan, they were not able to sell the same kind of thing over a period of time. So what happened is I can so at that particular place, what I realized was that the sales team had the ability to sell particular quantity of items in a month on a daily basis. And the production team had the ability to produce certain similar kind of items in a month. Now the beauty of this entire exercise was that the production manager or the project manager became a bit more enthusiastic and he started producing things in overdrive. Much beyond the capacity of the sales team to sell, although he was doing a great thing by increasing the productivity, but in the bargain, instead of making more revenues, company was investing more in their warehousing because they had to now stack these items somewhere. So it was incurring losses for the company. And this particular thing of exuberance on behalf of this production team was actually leading company to disaster. So when we were having this interaction, I said that, look, you have to understand. And that is where the interaction between these two teams is very important. Similarly, some places, a production team creates a product. The sales team gets the first hand feedback from the consumers, but the production team doesn't listen to that feedback. So they are busy creating something unique, which is not required by the sales team to sell in the first go. And the feedback of the sales team is not being listened to by them. Hence, there is a big gap that is existing. And because of this big gap, what is happening? You have an overhang of inventory. So production team is saying that sales is unable to sell this beautiful product that we have created. But, friend, nobody wants this product. Please listen to the voice of the customer. These are the kind of things that and, you know, why I talk about this battlefield to boardroom things is because there are 2 things, 2 aspects that I do when I'm leading my men into battle. 1 is that I give them orders. Orders are very formal instructions I give them. But before we get into the battle, there is something called as briefing, which is very much informal. And during the briefing time, my order group people and the key personals who are supposed to be handling their teams. They're all part of that particular discussion, and they are free to challenge the plan that has been made. And why do we do it? We do it because none of us as commanding officer or as leaders want to have blood of our own soldiers on our hands. So we have to take that tough call. So we give them that opportunity, that find fault in my plan. And as a team, let's resolve it out here itself. We are not going to leave it to that we will start doing it. But the kind of iteration that we do on that plan while having this kind of an informal discussion, one thing I realized on the very first contact with the enemy, Joanne, the best laid out plan goes for a 6. It's pretty true. But how hard you have worked? You work on n number of contingencies. You work on n plus one contingencies, and then you realize that it is n plus 1 plus 1 that now you're forced to look into. So how do you come out of that sticky situation? You come out of that sticky situation because you have taken a deep dive into it. You know, and as a commander on ground, now you are well aware of the kind of decisions that you are supposed to make. And in the battlefield, we are operating in time and space zone. So I am supposed to take a decision which is much faster than my adversaries' ability to respond. So if I do that, I happen to be the winner. And that Joanne Lockwood: that's the key, isn't it? Because in the same way that your plan doesn't survive first contact, the enemy's plan doesn't survive first contact. So it's how you adapt, how you change, and how you interpret that that change that wins the day, isn't it? Exactly what you're saying there. Absolutely. Adaptability. And in the Taran Kumar: corporate world because most of the corporate world is taking the terminologies from the military sense. Like, they talk about, I want to grab this much of market share. Now grab is a military word. I want to penetrate into this region. Penetrate is a military word. So they are always using the jargons which are more or less taken from the military way of life. And when you're doing it, you must understand that how well you have planned. If you're only looking at one particular aspect and that happens to be the profitability, then you will lose sight with other important aspects, which can help you bail out of a sticky situation. And that is so important. So involve everybody into your corporate boardroom, make everybody plan those things. I happened to come across a very interesting thing recently on LinkedIn where one dog food company recognized one of their housekeeping staff for carrying out a beautiful display of their products, which led to immense growth in their, off the shelf offerings. And that opened my eyes to one thing, and this is something which I always tell people. When you're openly inviting your staff, your people from different verticals who are working in the same space, they may be having some very fantastic ideas which can be put into practice. You can give them okay. This particular shelf would be made by the finance department. This particular shelf will be made by the housekeeping department. And this particular shelf will be made by the retail department. And then you'll see that retail department is using their line of thought, which is very much aligned to the way things are taught to them in management schools. Whereas the sales, whereas the housekeeping department and the finance department would be doing it from a totally different approach. They would be looking at it. What is it that people from our line of work they would be looking at? What is it that is going to appeal to people? And in the bargain, we'll see that these two streams will have more people coming and picking up stuff from their shelves Then what they would be picking up from the shelf of the retail stores. That's a very high possibility area just by inviting people from different verticals to come and participate. And they also start feeling that look, I'm relevant in this organization. And it gives a challenge to the teams which are already working there. So this kind of involvement of people from different verticals can lead to a very cohesive team building where people can provide invaluable advice to others. And nobody will say, you know, it's not your job. It's my domain. No. It's everyone's domain because this is our company. And this has Joanne Lockwood: been absolutely fascinating conversation. And for you to have to share some of the well, there's very personal intimate details about your injury, your, your time in the military, and then how you've applied that learning to the corporate world as well. And, you know, use both those exchanges and those analogies. I think it's been really powerful. So how come the listeners, how come the people listening and tuning in today get hold of you? What's a good way to make contact? Well, I'm Taran Kumar: generally known as force multiplier on LinkedIn and everywhere. I have my own website, which is force multipliers.in. And if somebody's wondering what force multiplier means, it means that it gives you the ability of achieving far greater things with than without it. So in the military parlance, if I have to destroy a squadron of tanks and tanks are supposed to be very potent force, I just need to have one attack helicopter. And that one attack helicopter happens to be the force multiplier. So that was putting the things in the right perspective. You can also reach out to me on Instagram where I'm, again, force_ multipliers. My email ID is tarun@forcemultipliers.in because I'm from India. And most important is that I have my own podcast, which is known as Bulland Hosley. Literally in English, it means in high spirits. And the reason why I do this podcast is because I'm hugely passionate about the concept of human brilliance. We are all brilliant in some way or the other. And if we can bring that thing to life, there is a lot to learn from almost each one of us. Like I benefited a lot in the bargain today, Joanne, by having this conversation with you, How to ask intelligent questions and rather than having a interview kind of a thing, how about having a conversation? Thank you. I can't wait to listen back to this and, Joanne Lockwood: thank you so much for your time. And, it'd be fascinating to get to know you as well. So thank you so much. It was indeed a pleasure. Have a Taran Kumar: wonderful day. As we bring this Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.