---
title: "Empowering Belonging"
episode: 142
date: 2025-01-09
guest: "Alyssa Dver"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/142-empowering-belonging
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-142/audio.mp3
---

# Empowering Belonging

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Alyssa Dver, founder of the ERG Leadership Alliance and the American Confidence Institute, for a wide-ranging conversation about what belonging really looks like and how organisations can sustain it. They explore how fear and defensive behaviours can shape culture, why psychological safety matters for performance, and how managers can listen to understand rather than simply respond. Along the way, Joanne reflects on approaching 60 and the shift from accumulating relationships and obligations to focusing on what is sufficient and meaningful. A central focus is the practical reality of employee resource groups: the need for clear fundamentals like purpose, who the group serves, decision-making structures, and guardrails. Alyssa explains why executive sponsorship is pivotal and often under-trained, and why ERGs need to translate belonging into outcomes and measures that organisational leaders will take seriously. The episode closes with an emphasis on community, resilience, and taking action together through challenging social and political times.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Processing events reveals ongoing disbelief and pain.
- 08:11 — Understanding others' perspectives is finding middle ground.
- 15:05 — Living authentically means embracing vulnerability and uncertainty.
- 19:04 — Friendships decrease with age; fewer close friends.
- 25:59 — The challenge of workplace belongingness motivates action.
- 27:18 — ERGs foster connection regardless of diversity focus.
- 34:06 — Empowering leadership fosters innovation and entrepreneurship.
- 41:07 — Define your group's purpose, structure, and roles.
- 44:07 — Business funding requires justification of decisions.
- 49:07 — Fast-track growth and networking opportunity.
- 57:39 — Global company hosts town hall for community building.
- 01:02:00 — Join our community driving inclusion and change.

## Key takeaways

- The shift from accumulating connections in youth to valuing fewer, more meaningful relationships as we age.
- The importance of prioritising relationships and activities that are symbiotic and fulfilling rather than burdensome.
- The concept of "unsubscribing" from toxic relationships, similar to cancelling unnecessary subscriptions.
- The psychological impact of fear and defensive behaviours, and how creating a sense of belonging can mitigate these reactions.
- The role of ERGs in career development, offering leadership opportunities and access to resources.
- The debate on whether ERG leadership should be compensated and the benefits of governance and clear expectations.
- The evolving role of leadership towards inclusivity and fostering environments where team members can collectively explore ideas.

## FAQs

### What is the central theme of this podcast episode, "Empowering Belonging"?

The episode revolves around creating a sense of belonging and the importance of meaningful relationships, particularly as we age. Joanne Lockwood and Alyssa Dver discuss moving from accumulating friends to valuing a few genuine connections, the significance of being judicious with time and relationships, and the role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) in fostering inclusion.

### How do Joanne and Alyssa view the evolution of friendships as we age?

Both speakers note a shift from striving for numerous friendships in youth to prioritizing a few valuable ones as they grow older. They discuss the concept of "unsubscribing" from relationships that are no longer symbiotic or fulfilling, comparing it to ending unnecessary subscriptions.

### What insights do Joanne and Alyssa share about the importance of understanding diverse perspectives?

Joanne and Alyssa stress that even if we don’t agree with others' viewpoints, it is crucial to relate to and understand their lived experiences. This practice enriches personal and intellectual growth and helps mitigate conflicts.

### Why do Joanne and Alyssa highlight the privilege aspect concerning changes in life choices?

They acknowledge that the ability to make significant life changes, such as shedding unfulfilling relationships or leaving a corporate job, is often a privilege. Not everyone has the resources or flexibility to make such choices, especially in challenging work environments.

### What role do Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) play according to this discussion?

ERGs are employee-run but business-funded groups that provide a platform for developing leadership skills, networking, and access to resources. However, there is debate over whether ERG leaders should be financially compensated or view their role as volunteer work offering non-monetary benefits like career development.

### How do the speakers view the development and governance of ERGs?

Proper governance, clear rules, and executive sponsorship are critical for ERGs to succeed. Without these, ERGs can become ineffective. Successful ERGs should have transparency, clear missions, and documentation showcasing their benefits like improved productivity and employee well-being.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 142 with the title, Empowering Belonging. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Alisa de Vere. Alisa is a confidence expert, a leader of the ERG Alliance that equips organisations with the tools and brain science to create sustainable, inclusive, and impactful employee resource group. And I asked Alyssa to describe a superpower. She said that it is helping people feel confident and valued by creating spaces where everyone belongs. Hello, Alissa. Welcome to the show. Jo, I'm so excited to be here. I can't imagine a more

Alyssa Dver: perfect conversation for today. No.

Joanne Lockwood: And we met, I suppose, coming up from a month ago. It was actually, to put a date stamp on it, it was the day after the, US presidential elections where the news of the result was just filtering through. Wasn't it? It was. And I was so glad to be with you

Alyssa Dver: and not in Boston where I am right now because I tell you that was a tough day. Yeah. So

Joanne Lockwood: we were at a, the ERG Alliance event in London, weren't we, on that day? That's right. In Waterloo, South Southwark.

Alyssa Dver: Yeah. It was it was really nice to be, and and, you know, it's interesting too, of course, for me being kind of the representative American in the room. You know, everyone was like, why? And, I still don't have those answers. No. And you put a brave face on

Joanne Lockwood: it, if I remember rightly. Yeah. We could everyone could tell that there was a a lot of confusion and pain behind the eyes. Oh,

Alyssa Dver: yeah. Well, I, you know, I guess that's good because I don't wanna fake anybody ever. I will say this, you know, in processing it now for several weeks, there is a lot of pain still. And every day, the news is, you know, almost more unbelievable with some of the appointees and some of the ramifications and things that are happening. But it's also rallied maybe an energy or a a latent complacency. Right? I think that we we often take a lot for granted, whether it's women's rights or any kind of rights, civil rights. And those are things that we have to continue to put our focus on. So for what it's worth, it bites. But at the same time, we are gonna bite back in a way that is productive, smart, and, sustainable. So we have a lot of work to do. I think a lot of people are realizing that. They're taking maybe the rest of the year to kind of re energize and at the same time find a new approach. Yeah. It's

Joanne Lockwood: I find that the whole world of politics is it's very divisive, isn't it? I mean, we're gonna be talking around ERGs and staff networks and empowering people and creating belonging, which is an inclusive approach. Whereas politics is you're in, you're out. You're with us, you're against us. And and there's no room for the for the losers almost, is there? Yeah. Well, think about

Alyssa Dver: elementary, middle school, high school. I mean, why is it any different? You know, power, people who wanna be popular, who wanna have power in that. The only way they I should say the only way. The most common way, of course, is to make themselves either bullies or make the and or make the rest of the population feel less confident. And so, unfortunately, that that's kind of the definition of divisiveness. Right? Somebody's a winner, somebody's a loser. And it's just sad. It's a human condition that unfortunately transcends ethnicity, culture, country. Right? And you look at all over the world. Or you end up in a

Joanne Lockwood: a democracy that is constrained. Someone like, Switzerland, for example, where it's a consensus voting all the time and it's very hard to make change, which creates a very stable political government, but you don't evolve as a country or evolve as a society because you can never get consensus. That's the other challenge, isn't it? Yeah.

Alyssa Dver: Well, you can never get consensus. Let's think about that for a second, though. Because if we're really inclusive, we're inviting difference. We embrace and celebrate differences. Right? So consensus may not be something that is attainable. And maybe that's okay. I mean, we're getting very ideological here. But, the reality is this, is if you really have all those beautiful different voices at a table and you want them to agree, that's kind of by definition not going to work. It shouldn't work. Right? But if we can come to a place where and, you know, I'm not I don't love the word compromise. It kind of implies that we're all not getting what we want. But if we can come to a place of compromise where everyone goes, you know, that'll work for me enough. And that's one of my favorite words is enough. Because I don't think we use enough enough. But, like, instead of having to be totally, you know, if my list has 10 requirements, but I get 8 or 7 of them fulfilled, and you get 8 or 7 of yours fulfilled, that's enough. So consensus may not be the right choice there. Oh, I I hear what you're saying about the word consensus. I I

Joanne Lockwood: always try and reframe it so that I'm not seeing it as I've given way or I've had to compromise. I wanna see compromises. Actually, I'm satisfied that we've both given ground. We've both met in the middle.

Alyssa Dver: Right. We both acknowledged each other's feelings, our needs.

Joanne Lockwood: And when we sat down and talked about something, I go, actually, you're right. We need a bit of that as well. And so we're we're not giving ground. We're we're we're sharing ground and understanding each other's needs. I think that's that's how I would frame compromise. I agree. 100%.

Alyssa Dver: 100%. Wouldn't it be a better world? It would be. Right? You know, I don't wanna label anything or try to avoid labels. But, you know, this this historically dictatorial stance of, you know, it's mine, and I has to be my way or the like, it's it's just we gotta do something about that. And and at the same time, we don't have to impose. Right? Like, just because we choose whatever it might be, a lifestyle or a preference, doesn't mean you have to. Right? And I think I think there is this, I don't know. I don't even know the words to how I am, like, so so beyond trying to explain things, as I said. But I think there is this assumption that we all have to, like you said, consensus, we all have to agree. We don't have to agree. And that's okay. Yeah. No. I I agree we

Joanne Lockwood: don't have to agree. And I think it's I I always try and come from the angle that if I can understand why you believe something, I don't actually have to believe the same thing as long as I can understand and relate to your lived experience and the fact that you're straight or you're black or you have a disability, whatever it may be, I can't walk in your shoes, but, and I can't necessarily have empathy for what you go through, but I can relate to your stories, to your lived experience, and I can go, actually, I've never seen it through that those eyes before and that that lens before. But now you say that, I I really do understand why it's important to you. It will never be important to me, but I can understand now it's important for you, it's important to me as well, sort of thing. Just trying to find that middle ground, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yes. And

Alyssa Dver: and I think that oftentimes people make very poor assumptions. Right? We know assumptions are never good, but they can be very dangerous. And and what I mean by that is you don't know what somebody's been through. You have no idea. You, you know, you're talking to somebody at any given moment and you don't know what they just came out of or have lived through in the past. And so their perspective is gonna be different than yours. But it doesn't mean it's better, wrong, right. It's just different. At the same time, isn't that a beautiful thing? We get all this different views of things, whether it's, you know, for innovation reasons or just to enrich our intellectual appreciation of all of it. But I don't think everyone I know I'm not, you know, clearly that's not a shared viewpoint. You know, I I don't know how or why I have that, to be honest with you. I have a lot of my own lived experiences that make me that way. But it's there's an irony here, . Because I want people to be more accepting because I'm more accepting. Right? So I try and also understand, and I use brain science as my tool to understand why does somebody feel so bigoted? Or why do they feel so assumptive? What like, what is behind that so that I can be a little bit more prepared and and maybe I don't want to say supportive. That's not the right word either. But so so that I can create a a common ground. Do you have any theories

Joanne Lockwood: with your brain science and your your experience as to why, yeah, as you say, I, we, many people we know, want to see betterment. We want to feel we want people to succeed. We want people to genuinely feel safe, secure, have opportunities. And we believe we're the best in people, but there are other people who have a different view where they're not, well, whether it's selfish or self centred or self effacing, Begins with the word self. They're not thinking in those ways. So what is the difference? And without going into personality disorders, narcissistic tenders, what word should we use? Can we? Can we,

Alyssa Dver: please? Well, alright. We'll we'll make it very I don't want to say simple. It's not simple, but we'll make it, somewhat easy to digest. You know, there's two reasons. Well, first of all, no baby is born selfish. Right? Like you don't come out and you're like, I'm gonna be a jerk when I grow up. Like, you know. You don't it's a learned behavior, right? So they learn it from somewhere, some people, some situations. And in many cases, it may be a defensive mechanism from some trauma or from other things too, of course. Right? So you can't always blame the people or the situation, but you can at least explain that there's a reason why that person is feeling the way they are. Now, reality overall is that our brains, as evolved as they are, they're still pretty cave like, right? In that we respond to fear. That is our immediate, you know, I'm about to be hurt. And hurt, not just physically hurt, but emotionally hurt. Like, someone's not gonna like me. Somebody's gonna think I'm a loser. And in that moment of what is usually subconscious, because we don't stop and say, Oh, I'm feeling this way. It's a reaction. And the reaction goes right into our brain stem, which is the cave person part of our brain. Right? That's the oldest part. It's the part of the brain that keeps us in survival mode. And survival mode is interesting because survival mode has 2 kind of extremes. 1 is very aggressive behavior, defensive aggressive. It could be somebody like, Oh, I didn't say that. Or it could be, you know, You. You're the problem. Those kinds of aggressive behaviors. But it could also be the other extreme, which is shy hunkering down, trying to disappear. You know, the people who don't want to say anything, maybe even passive aggressive, you could put in that bucket. But people who are quiet, who are introverted in a way that you go, you know, say something. And that's survival mode, right? They're scared. And that fear, that trigger of whatever it is. And I mean, it's kind of almost farcical in some ways, right? I watched our political news. We started on that foot. And I'm like, that guy that guy's scared, right? He's scared. He's scared of losing face. He's scared of something. And so, what do they do? They get overly aggressive. They become passive puppets, right? And that's the heart of it. I mean, it's what it's the heart of it. It's the head of it, right? It's that's what it's all about. So, when we don't belong, when we're not included, we go into that survival mode. And if we can make people or help people feel more belonged, more included, maybe we wouldn't have so many damn dictators all over the world. And I did stress that. Dictators. Sorry.

Joanne Lockwood: Dictator. Yes. I yeah. There was a an enunciation of that word, wasn't there? It's heavily loaded towards the first syllable.

Alyssa Dver: Well and let me be clear. It is not it is not, you know, male or and women have this these issues too. And more and more, I think, you know, for lots of social reasons, women are acting equally defensive and aggressive as well as shy. You know, we we do see those polars all over the place. I've lived 2 lives as as you're aware,

Joanne Lockwood: and I've noticed a complete difference in the way I view the world, the way I show up, the way I interact. And I I could liken it to finding a religion or finding my epiphany or whatever it was whatever it may be. And why I look back on that that time in my life is realising that once you've told that biggest secret, that biggest thing inside you, once you've effectively opened your kimono to the world and said this is who I am underneath, There's not a lot left to hide and you've also realised that fear, all this apprehension, the things that are holding you back are just so what? No big deal, you can get over it. I think you're right in saying that some people have this defensiveness, insecurity, the little child inside them that doesn't want to be found out, doesn't want to be, you know, wants to be in with a big crowd, you know, they're always chasing this and they surround themselves with people who say yes all the time or amplify their their beliefs. Whereas I I find it much much more interesting now to to exist in, I say, chaos. We live in a world where I don't have to have all the answers, and I'm really, really comfortable with that these days. I love

Alyssa Dver: how you you said that. Yes. A 100%. But you said some people. I think everyone does. And it's few that and I say everyone, including you and I, that there's probably moments you still you regress a little. I mean, I do too. Now what we know from our research at the Institute is that by the time we're 60 years old, we're finally comfortable in our own skin and as a population. Right? You know, why is that? Because by the time you're 60, you finally realize all that minutia that you mentioned, all those things that just don't matter. Like, I'm not changing now. Like, this is who I am. Get over it. Right? But there are going to be moments, I don't care how confident someone out there thinks they are. In fact, it takes confidence to realize you're not confident. Right? And when you finally come to that conclusion that, you know what? I'm not perfect. I'm not right all the time. And, you know, I'm human. If if that's the way it is. And when you accept that really wholly, it is liberating. You're absolutely right. Oh, yeah. I just sort of

Joanne Lockwood: phew in my my brow here, you know, you have to start to get your your shit together. If you're like, well, I'm 30 60. I'm 60 in 7 weeks' time. So I'm kind of glad that I've kind of arrived at that plateau just at the I mean, I think what would have happened if I got to this point and I locked in my personality at 60. It was the other one. I think, wow, at least I'm locking in the right personality at 60 and thinking I've got going together. But

Alyssa Dver: Well, thank you too for doing it because we love who you are. Yeah, I think I think my fifties have

Joanne Lockwood: been in training for my sixties. You know, I think when you get to this point in your life, approaching 60, you're right. You don't have to be anything anymore. All of those, I suppose again, human instinct when you were young, you're trying to nest build, you're trying to acquire stuff, you're trying to feather everything and making sure that you have an environment where your children can grow up safely. You can then provide for them. All this kind of stuff that we do is very primeval. And we get to, I suppose, our age. Sorry. I wasn't trying to say that you're our age. Our age. No. We're we're

Alyssa Dver: yes. 60 scissors. Sis, sis, scissors. Sixty sisters. I can't even say it. We don't need that

Joanne Lockwood: baggage anymore. You know, we can shed that baggage. And I was talking to someone yesterday about the difference between baggage and luggage. Baggage is stuff you carry around with you, that you collect over the years. Luggage is the stuff where you sort your baggage out and say, this is all I now need to have a great life from here on in. So this is a shedding of the baggage and just picking up the luggage now. Yeah. So I'll give

Alyssa Dver: you another data point that reinforces exactly what you just said. You know, we we've done a lot of research through the institute over the years, the last decade plus. And some of these data points, when you first collect them, you're like, really? And then you start to, like, ask people, and you'll it's just completely validated. And one of them was, you know, when you're in your twenties, your thirties, you have a bazillion friends typically. Like, you look at wedding pictures and there's, like, how many grooms men and grooves at bridesmaids. Right? And then you get into your later years and the average number , I'm gonna ask you to guess. What's the average number of people you'd really consider a good friend? Really honest,

Joanne Lockwood: I could survive just my wife and I as as the core must haves, and our children, and my parents, maybe. I don't I don't mean maybe in a nasty way. I'm just saying that if it came down to it and I had to lock the door and not let anybody in, my wife and I would be very happy together. But I suppose outside of that, there were 5 people maybe. Maybe. 2. 2 was

Alyssa Dver: the statistical audit appointment. Tongue tied today. 2. And part of that is letting go of the baggage. Because there's a lot of people that we collect over the years that are out of convenience. You know, people that are there during your kids' young years where you needed to carpool and you needed some backup or whatever. Friends that were just fun to go out drinking buddies. You know, whatever it was. And you get older and you're like, you know, I have so little time. And it's not because I'm planning to die anytime soon. It's just that a day is 24 hours and I gotta sleep at least 8 of them. Right? So, like, with the time I have, I wanna be really mindful of the people that matter to me. And so you'd really do that, what I call pruning of your relationships. And subsequently, you get rid of the baggage. And you're like, you know what? I don't have time for that person and their drama. I don't have time for this person who's only asking me for stuff all the time. So you do go through some of that in your fifties. And you end up in your 60s. And you're kind of like, I'm lighter. I don't need any more stuff. I don't need more people. I don't need any more anything. I just want to live in my own skin and respect my values, my needs, and my wants. And the people that I love in the same vein. Yeah. I've I've moved into I've I've talked to

Joanne Lockwood: other people, a sufficiency phase of my life. So I've gone away from acquisition and assets and gluttony into a sufficiency. So what you're saying there is is is mirroring that that feeling. I'm shedding the gluttony of relationships to the simplicity of to sufficient relationships that feed my needs. We're symbiotic in our needs with each other rather than it being, as you said, unbalanced. You're a taker. I'm always a giver with you. We don't need that, do we? Yeah. And, you know,

Alyssa Dver: I think there's a a beautiful I don't know. Justification, I guess, I would call it where you say I say to myself regularly, if I waste time, for example, with that person and all their nonsense, it's less time I can give less energy, less focus to the people or the person that really needs me now. Right? And so, you get judicious. You get judicious with what you do, where you go, what you join, what you sign up for, and who you hang out with. Because you recognize we have limited asset. And you know, I don't regret any of the past. I think it's all part of our, you know, own life experience. But at the same time, you know, I think a lot of people hold on to relationships. They hold on to things well past their due and and subsequently do regret that. So the sooner you can prune, the better. Software subscriptions, you need to not

Joanne Lockwood: renew them. Exactly. That's that's the worst thing about Black Friday and Thanksgiving and Cyber Monday is all my AppSumo and all those other software deals I've got all renew at this time of year. So it's got 200 dollars for this, $50 for that, $100 for this, you think? Blimey. So so I started for all this last year and some more. I'm sorry. Well, needless to say, there's an app for that.

Alyssa Dver: I can't remember the name, but you There's probably and an app to unsubscribe you from all of that. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. For sure. But you're

Joanne Lockwood: right. We need to unsubscribe from our friends that aren't bringing us value. They're not adding they're decrementing rather than incrementing our life. And And family too. I'm sorry to, like, pick

Alyssa Dver: up your friends. But, you know, there's family members that are also life suckers. And so and and, you know, yeah, you might have to see them at a holiday, but it doesn't mean you have to jump, you know, every time they say I need something. That's a hard one because you're like, oh, I feel indebted to family. You're born with family. You have no choice on that one. But you can still minimize the, the drain. As you're talking there, and I'm my brain's flying around in the

Joanne Lockwood: background thinking this is a very privileged conversation to have the privilege of a supporting environment of a a status of wealth and to be able to make these life choices. Not everybody has this opportunity to pick and choose their their friends. Some people are, are maybe struggling. That that happens in organizations as well, doesn't it? It's always a if you're living a working in a world where you're not being respected, it's very easy for some and some, well, if you don't like it, leave and go somewhere else. But that's also a very privileged thing to say, isn't it? Everyone has that ability to up up sticks and go. Yeah.

Alyssa Dver: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's unfortunately it's it's kinda like family in some ways, really. You end up in an organization. Now maybe you chose that job originally, but, again, like you're suggesting, maybe you had to for a variety of reasons. And then all of a sudden, you're surrounded by all these people who may or may not get you, may not want to get you, and at the same time may not be anything like you. So that can be extraordinarily traumatic.

Joanne Lockwood: So we hear sequential tales of, young young women who are probably now middle aged women, older women who have put up with poor behavior because at the early phase of their career, that was the only way they perceived they could get on. And we're just seeing stuff in the UK press at the moment around TV presenters who have been acting inappropriately for many, many decades and never been called out, or if they were called out, they were never listened to and never respected. So the kind of Me Too, the other things that are going on, it's not easy to sort of to stand your ground, because principals don't pay the rent, do they, sometimes? Yes. Very

Alyssa Dver: profoundly put. It is hard. It you know, I do the employee resource group employee networks, and that was one reason I felt really a need. I remember, you know, I had already started the American Confidence Institute, and the story behind that is kind of interesting because it goes back to a neurological crisis that I was dealing with with my son. So I had really good motivation motivation. I it was like urgency to get, my hands around what was going on with human behavior and brains for that reason. But one of the things I realized was that there were so many people in the workplace that were in that position where they just didn't feel like they belong. They weren't included. And so I was like, well, what can I do? And lo and behold, started getting a lot of calls from ERGs to present the confidence work. And when I started asking questions, it was kind of hilarious because the talent people, you know, HR and talent management would say to me, these groups, they're just for wine and cheese and, you know, food, like, and fun. And I was like, but they don't have to be. They're really good constructs. And if we just got organized. And then I was like, we? Who's the we? There was no we. And the we became me because I was like, I don't know. I can at least organize people. And so, you know, fast forward, that was in 2019 that we actually said, Okay, we're going to do this ERG thing. And then George Floyd and COVID and all kinds of other contributors. And despite the horrific news that continues to pour out through the US and other countries about getting rid of the D, getting rid of the I, everything is disgusting. The constructs are still, maybe even more so, important. You know, one of the things that I've said a long time is it was a bummer that ERGs, employee networks, I'll use those interchangeably today, but that they got kind of, latched on to diversity because I think that the core of those groups, it has to do with what's important to you no matter what that intersectionality is. If you want to be part of an LGBT group, great. But maybe you want to be part of the linen arts group because that brings you joy and pleasure and connection. And I, you know, I think we need to embrace this as a moment of, of expressing who we are in all different ways and and and enjoying the company of others who do too. I kinda like actually the fact that it's now pivoting into employee experience because if we can find people who we maybe there's nobody else that's blocking your organization and you have to want to stay at that organization for whatever reasons. But maybe you can connect with somebody who has a different aspect that you still really value. And I think that that opens up a whole new door of opportunity for us to bring inclusion and belonging. And that may be not so much a silver lining, but a nice evolution of this whole construct. I'm a big

Joanne Lockwood: fan of what you're saying here. I mean, I I talk about positive people experiences, and that's the fundamental. We get caught up in these acronyms, don't we? DEI, EDI. We put a J for justice in there. We put a this in there. And it confuses the layperson with all these buzzwords. And what we're really trying to say is we want well-being. We want psychological safety. We want environments where people can thrive, they feel safe, they can they can grow, they can develop, they can be nurtured. That's all we're talking about and that's that's all people rather than just some people. And if that's what we're trying to do with DEI, EDI, is try and create positive environments where people thrive and feel that sense of belonging and purpose. And it's got hijacked into, as you say, food and flags and fun and and which which are great because everyone loves a good party, everyone loves a good it brings people together, but it's I often think that some it gets lost in, I I call it, bean counting. Have I got it's like Noah's Ark. Have I got one of those, 2 of those, 5 of these? Where is everybody? If we're not careful, what we end up doing is we're focusing on the numbers rather than the outcomes, which is how do people feel?

Alyssa Dver: That's right. That's right. Now, I'm I'm gonna take us a little bit outside of that box for a second if you'll allow me. My husband is a 5th grade teacher here in the US, and he works in a school that is bilingual, largely Brazilian Portuguese is the second language. A lot of these children have been through extraordinary trauma. And I keep using that phrase, extraordinary trauma, because I think there's everyday traumas that we all live through. But these are extraordinary, you know, they've left homes sometimes with a single parent, sometimes had, you know, all kinds of voyage journeys and so forth. And oftentimes are still in a traumatic environment where maybe they're one of 10 people in a very, very small apartment. Maybe there's abuse and drugs. There's all kinds of things that happen. Needless to say, he teaches a course for other teachers on how to handle trauma. And, you know, I think one of the key messages is you're never going to understand, nor should you, nor, you know, it's almost a waste of time in many cases to try and really understand the trauma. But there are ways we can support that child in learning better, knowing that they've been through trauma. Right? And I I use that you know, I'm very inspired by all that because I think what a lot of managers will never understand is if you really want people to have the best performance they can be. Right? Like, as a manager, that's your job is like, how do I help you perform better? That that's it. Right? How do I make you, the best contributor you can be? I don't have to understand your experience, but I have to at least respect it. And I have to ask good enough questions to to make you psychologically safe, to allow you to thrive in a way that doesn't threaten my limitations. Right? And I think that's where the rubber hits the road is managers feel like, you know, they are, you know, you got to get the best out of your people. You got to like, you know, bring your whole self to work. Well, really? Really? Come on. Who are you joking? I can't bring my whole self to work if you're not even letting me open my mouth in a meeting, right? Or you're not even asking me what I need in this body that I have that's very different than yours. And I think there's a vulnerability there that we just we're never gonna I shouldn't say never. It's gonna be hard to train some of these people to relax a little bit. Yeah, I'm just picking out

Joanne Lockwood: some core thinking out of what you're just saying, and I I think I'm gonna crystallize it as as listening to understand. Not listening to reply, but listening to truly understand. I think what I find is the traditional I say traditional, the old school command and control leadership style is I'm right. I know the plan. We're gonna do it my way. And if you're not doing it my way, I'm gonna manage you until you do or or you're out. Whereas the what we're trying to do now is is develop teams of artisans, people who are creative, people who are free thinking, people who bring that empowerment and those ideas sharing into the workplace. And the leaders' role is different now. It's about creating space and holding space for people to explore ideas and come to this consensus or this compromise, whatever we want to call it, of of of a direction rather than saying, I've got all the ideas, this is what we're going to do. It's what do we think? How are we gonna do this? I

Alyssa Dver: think we could even apply that comment to, again, the politics. Right? The difference between being led versus empowered. Right? And leaders fear empowering people because it means that they're gonna lose their own power, which in truth is just the opposite. You know? The old adage of hire people that are smarter than you. Like, it takes a really confident person to be like, hey. You know, this is an area that I know we need to do, and I'm not the expert, but you are. Right? So, yes, when you allow people, empower people to be in the words they use innovative, I'll even say entrepreneurial. Right? And I I I would go so far to say that most people who do leave a corporate world, myself included, I was a corporate, executive for 25, 30 years. And I I was like, I I can't deal with these constraints. My brain is too creative. I wanna do bigger or better things, and I can't do it in this environment. But I think a lot of people leave because of that reason. And yet, the talent, the innovation, the creativity that comes from allowing people to do that. Yeah. That's why companies take so long to move companies. Organizations would be government and nonprofit. You you know, any kind of organization. Because the management is, assuming that they need to lead and not empower. I I walked

Joanne Lockwood: out of corporate banking life in the twilight of the nineties, 1998. It was just prior to year 2000. There was a lot of memos going around telling us about our bonuses that were on the on the line if year 2000 went went wrong. And just the tone of voice in these letters, the tone of voice in the communication. I just thought, hang on a minute. I don't need this. You're you're treating me as as a 2 year old. You're paying me a lot of money, and you're talking me like I'm a 2 year old. No. I'm not having it. And I walked into HR and I said, no. I'm out. They looked at me and say, what, what, what, you can't do that? I said, well, you changed the rules, not me. You know, you decided that you're going to rearrange the department. You're going to do this, you're going to do that. That's not the job I wanted. That's not the job I applied for. That's not the job you offered me. You just think I'm going to be your pawn. I decided at that point there I wasn't fit for corporate life. I wasn't prepared to be the the pawn on the on the board and, to be, ruled by the back by the back row. So, yeah, it was but I didn't know what being self employed truly meant. I just knew that I could get up tomorrow and figure stuff out. Figure it out.

Alyssa Dver: Figure it out. And it is, again, a privileged position as you said earlier, right, to be able to do that, and some people can't. So the people that can't or won't and could be can't financially, but it could be can't because, emotionally, they're just not there. They don't have the the the wherewithal. A thousand reasons, right, why they can't. At least, if there's an environment where they can commiserate with other people who are in the same boat, that helps. At least if they can feel like I'm not the only one who sees the ridiculousness of the situation or the injustice of the situation, that helps. So, you know, I I do use that word commiserate a lot in the ERG language because I think there is an empowerment that comes. It's not whining. It's validating. It's saying, you know, I see this is wrong. And yet other people are saying, Yeah, we see it wrong too. So maybe they'll get up and do something to right it. But if nothing else, they don't feel like an outsider saying, you know, the emperor has no clothes. So, you know, I think that there is a real power in that coming together, in that ability to, again, share. Even if it's not an ethnicity share, it's not a gender share. It's not it's not that. It's just we see that this is we see it from the same side of things, and apparently, the rest of the organization doesn't. You don't feel so lonely in that.

Joanne Lockwood: ERG staff networks, however you wanna describe them, they go through an evolutionary phase, both an organization, being from a start up to maturing, and the ERG will will match the maturity model, if you like, with the organisation as well. So at the early stages, it's a bit probably less less formal. And eventually, you're working with a multinational conglomerate with thousands and thousands of staff all over the world, then the ERG model becomes multi territory, multi time zone, and it has to have some structures. Where do organizations make mistakes in the early days when they're starting ERGs? What's their what's their biggest misstep, if you like?

Alyssa Dver: Well, I'm gonna start with there's no maturity model. I think it's misled for people to think that there's a maturity model. We used to have an assessment ourselves for progression and this and the other. And the reality is this that the organization may have a programmatic maturity. You know, they finally get a policy document. They probably they finally get the rules and processes kind of in a place. Maybe they have a system to help manage it, whatever. Group itself ebbs and flows. And it ebbs and flows with the leadership of the group, the experience and the zeal of those leaders themselves which come and go. 2 years is an average tenure, but when I say average, most leaders don't even last that long. So, there's a lot of new people that come and go, and they may or may not have experience leading a group at all. So, the group itself, there may be new groups that pop up all the time. And we get inquiries at ELA all the time saying, oh, yesterday somebody emailed us. You ever heard of Slovenia Slovenian group, Slovenic group, I guess? And we'd like to know if there anybody else has one of those on the those happen. So the groups themselves will ebb and flow. And even if it's a, you know, big group that's been around for a long time, there's a reflection of the leadership. There's a reflection of the overall leadership of the organization. Of course, there's an ebb and flow of the political environment. I mean, there's a lot of things that can, in fact, impact the status of that group. So I think number one mistake is don't assume anything. Like, always go back to some of the fundamentals of, you know, make sure that it's clear who that group is serving specifically and why. And when I say go back, review those documents. Some people have charter missions. We charter and mission statements. We we have something a little bit more granular to really kind of call out some of the things that often get lost in those mission statements. Because who are you serving? You know, if you're serving women, are you serving any woman? Anyone who identifies as a woman? Women in general, what about men who want to support women better? Those are your allies. Are you supporting them? If so, okay. But define it. Right? And why? Be really clear. Why does this group need to exist? And what happens if the group goes away? So those fundamentals are really important. And and in light of those, when you're clear about who that group is for, the structure of the group, the processes of the group, the roles of the different not just in the leadership chain, but the executive sponsors, the role of the allies. When you have those fundamentals updated regularly, then everything else gets easier. I'm not going to say easy, but easier. So, when you make decisions about how do we inform and who do we inform and how frequently and what channels, what programs do we do, what gets funded, what doesn't get funded, Who's allowed to come to what? What safe spaces versus brief spaces are we gonna create? Those things get clearer. Are we gonna run things remotely? So people who are out in the fields who are maybe on a factory floor or frontline, are they gonna be easily participating? You know, those things get a lot clearer. So I think though that's the biggest mistake is people don't pay attention. I call them the fundamentals. It's kinda like, you know, the the definitional building blocks that make that group who they are. I see a lot of debates

Joanne Lockwood: on, LinkedIn around who who owns the ERG. You know? And, is it employee led, employee owned, or is it really the company? Who is the master? Who who is the who drives the agenda? And I see people criticising other people for doing unpaid voluntary work to support the company, and the company should really be funding the ERG and giving it part of their job and giving them time off. And people find they're doing it as a hobby or a side side hustle. I don't really try and sort that that that, that tension out. I appreciate there's no right or wrong way. It's whatever works for you. But how how can we rationalize the, the the yin and the yang of that? I don't know

Alyssa Dver: if it's yin and yang. I think they're a little bit more confrontational than that. No. There's there's a couple points that you just put into that question. You know, all these organizations that wanna slap a b in the front of the word. Right? Business resource group or business employee resource group. You know? That's part of that whole debacle of really who owns the group. Now I'm gonna say something here that may not resonate well with a lot of people. But look, if you're taking money from the business, I'm sorry to say it's like your board of it's your board of advisors or whoever. Like, the business owns that. But if the business is smart, if the business is doing this for the right reasons, it is funding it like an investor and trusting that the leaders of that group are not only gonna make good decisions, but take the time to justify those decisions back to the board. So if I'm going to give you x number of pounds or dollars or euros, whatever it might be, that you come back and say, Here are the things that I want to do with that money. And subsequently, this is the outcome. Now, here's where the ERGs and the whole world is changing a lot. And you were in the London event. You know that my trends report for 2025 is all about the numbers. Right? We gotta get better with the numbers. And the numbers have to be speaking to the business people. So, when we say that, you know, it helps people feel included and belonging, that means nothing to a CFO. What means to a CFO is if you don't do this, this is how many people are gonna leave next year. If you don't do this, this is what the impact on profitability and productivity is gonna be with some kind of quantitative number. Right? And so, that has been a mistake since the 1960s. Right? The ERGs have been there, but there never really been this rally cry of we've got to show the quantitative outcome to the business because the businesses are funding this. So, one woman's opinion is the groups are employee run, but they are business funded and assisted. This whole thing about compensating the leaders, which you also kind of tucked in there. This has been a very heated debate since the get go. We in many of our ELA events, our conferences. We've we've literally had different panelists argue this. The audience gets very heated about it. And again, this is one woman's opinion. If you step up to be an ERG leader, you're giving yourself a really beautiful opportunity to practice leadership skills, to learn from other people, to have access to people and resources that you'll never get in your day job, in your higher job, as I like to prefer to call it. So it's an opportunity. It's like taking, you know, one of those, you know, somebody says, would you like to be in the management track? Yes. It doesn't always pan out that way for lots of reasons. But if you take that approach and proactively say, this is what I want to learn and who I want to learn from. And these are the some of the things I'm gonna do in that role. It's a beautiful opportunity. Now you need your hired manager's support to do that. Of course, you don't wanna jeopardize your regular job. You certainly need the executive sponsor's support of the group to make all that, you know, open up all those doors and support you. But that's what it's about. There's some really terrible data out there. And I say data because it's not right. I I hate to call other organizations wrong, but they're wrong. We survey our members constantly. You know, at every event, we're always asking them. And this job is not compensated. It's not a job. It's a temporary assignment. It's like volunteering to be on the Parent Teacher Association or something else where you feel like you want to have your voice heard. You want to learn some things. You want to make new connections. But it's not a paid position. And the people who've gotten paid in the past or made payment available got burned. Because now all of a sudden, you have 2 bosses, 2 sets of performance reviews to deal with, and a lot of expectations that often are not in your control. So, you know, they give you a bonus, a spot bonus. They give you a cash card. Go, you know, have a nice cup of coffee somewhere. That's awesome. You know, maybe you're getting, a nice letter from your executive sponsor that you can put in your resume and your confidence collection someday to go, I did a great job. If you can get some of that put into your regular performance review, even better. For all those reasons, it's that those are valuable. They may not be cash convertible, but they're very valuable. But to expect that you're gonna get paid to do this work. I think that goes back to what we're saying before. DEI wanted all these people to be ambassadors and that was that was unpaid work. And I don't think that's fair. But if you're doing it for yourself in a way that's going to improve your ability to lead and contribute to the organization, whatever organization that is in the future, that's a great opportunity. Yeah. I suppose the way I would frame it is

Joanne Lockwood: it's a it's a fast track growth opportunity to step out of your comfort zone, to step into something else. Also, if you're operating at the senior level within the ERG, then it will give you access to upper management in organisations and across teams where you're networking with other ERGs, other leaders. So you will be very well connected, very well known, and it's a it's a fantastic opportunity for for career development, career advancement as a CV line, especially if you went to another organisation. It's it's a huge, great asset to you and your growth. So I think you're right. This may be seen as a financially rewarding at the time, but an investment in your career, investment in a vocation that you can step out of being a techie and into management without and have a test drive.

Alyssa Dver: Absolutely. And, you know, it's not just for the senior people. Like a junior person who maybe they wanna run an event and they've never done something like that. Well, what a great opportunity to experience it. You know, the the curricula that we designed and I mentioned the blueprints before. I said it's like a mini MBA. It really is. I mean, I went to the top business school in the world and I promise you it's like a mini MBA. So if you can get that for free with low risk and at the same time a lot of support around you so you're not studying on your own kind of thing. Oh my gosh. But people don't see it that way. They either like, I'm doing the work of DI or I'm doing, you know, all this other Yeah, it's it is additional work. I give it to you. It is a work and it's stressful and we see a lot of burnout. But that's largely because the expectations are not well set, and they are also not well managed. We get the same problem sometimes as we do in

Joanne Lockwood: in the hired job where people aren't experienced or trained or capable leaders. And putting within ERG for to to grow their leadership skills is good, but it it's also fraught with problems as well. So we've got to make sure there's good governance and rules and policies, for whatever better way of describing it. Otherwise, ERGs could become a political hotbed of matriarchal patriarchal clashes and demigods kicking in and it's my budget, not your budget. We're gonna do it my way. Dungeons and

Alyssa Dver: Dragons and ERGs, right? I think, yeah, absolutely. But, you know, I gave the example of a parent teacher organization. What what do you call them in the UK? Because here they go PTOs or you have the PTA,

Joanne Lockwood: Parent Teacher Association. Yeah. Yeah. Let me think about that. Village FATE, organizing a carnival or something like that. Yeah. Right. Or

Alyssa Dver: even, you know, if you're on some kind of advisory board for a religious organization or even a board for a nonprofit or a a start up. Right? If there's no rules of engagement, if there's no kind of expectations of what your, contribution and subsequent behavior should be, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is chaos. You're absolutely right. But an ERG is no different. I say ERGs are internal in associations. That's what they are. So if you run them without any governance, without any guardrails, yeah, you better believe people are gonna run off the road. It's just nature of humans. But but it's not very hard to create those guardrails. And it's not very hard to also ensure that people in and around the organization and here's another huge mistake. The only way an ERJ, I'm gonna be very absolute with this. The only way one of these groups really does well is if it has good executive sponsorship. Why? Because they have the visibility, they have the ear, they have the power really to ensure that that group is respected. Right? But how many organizations train their ear their executive sponsors? And they they look at these c suite or director level people, and they're like, oh, they're so smart. They know everything. Baloney. Bullshit. They do not know how to be an executive sponsor. We say to them, Oh, you're all just to advocate. They're like, I don't know what that means. I don't know how to do that. So, one of the things I did is I went out and interviewed 50 executive sponsors and every single one of them were like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, well, of course you don't know what you're doing. You never were taught how to do this. It's a different role than the one that you do day to day, or your CFO or CMO or whatever it is. It's a completely different role. And nobody teaches you how to be a mentor. Nobody teaches you how to be an advocate. Nobody teaches you how to represent. And so, not training those executive sponsors knowing that they're a key, that's a huge monumental mistake. We did more training this year for executive sponsors than anyone. So, I'm encouraged that that's a trend. But at the same time, man, if you have executive sponsors that have never been trained, that's a vulnerability. That's a liability. The vulnerability of the sponsor is as career

Joanne Lockwood: developing as any other as the other way around, where you're you're learning about different aspects of the business. You're you're probably drilling down and coming in contact with people you wouldn't have come in contact, listening to opinions, listening to views, getting your finger on the pulse. If everybody at the C suite was executive sponsoring in their own right, they would have huge insights into the ground floor of their business, wouldn't they? Yes, absolutely.

Alyssa Dver: Absolutely. And the whole ERG is a is

Joanne Lockwood: a a win win or should be a win win for both the people of which it represents, but also the organization in which it serves. That's exactly what I

Alyssa Dver: got into in the beginning. I was like, we're doing these wrong, and we gotta do them better. And the only way we're gonna do them better is if we rally a global community that can help figure out what those things are. You know, I said before that there's no progression. Well, you know what? There's no best practices either and there's no experts. And the reason being because every organization, of course, is different. Different culture, different leadership, every group itself is different. But that doesn't mean we can't have some benchmarks and some standards that people look and say, Okay, this is what we, you know, we need to have a policy guide. What's in that policy guide will vary from organization to organization. We need to have some governance for a group. And again, it may vary from one to the other, but there's certain aspects of governance that they all should have. We need to have structure. Not every group is going to have the same structure, but we need to have a structure. And here's what typically is in organizations for at least your group to consider. And I think that I know that not trying to be the expert and tell people what to do, but bring the community together to say, okay, how are we gonna make these groups better, stronger, more business centric without losing that employee control, I would say. Least employee value. Yeah, I think it's a huge win win. I think we're going to see the data and we're starting to see data already showing that when the groups are done well, the overall productivity and profitability of the organization goes up. And it's not just the people that are in the groups, it's the entire organization goes up. But we also see the opposite when you say, Yeah, we're going to have the groups because we want a checkbox. We want to be able to say that we have these groups, but we're not really going to support them well. We actually see profitability and productivity go down Because people know that the managers are full of crap. If you're listening to this, and

Joanne Lockwood: you're sitting there thinking, wow, that sounds utopian. I want an ERG just like that. Our organization, whatever, tick whichever box doesn't work for you. What advice would you, or starting point, would you say to someone, if it's not working, how does someone get involved and catalyze it? What are the key things to kicking it into the right orbit? Oh, wow. Well, two things come to mind.

Alyssa Dver: 1st, and it's not a commercial because these are all free. Jump on our website, grab a copy of the book, which is a PDF of the ERG intelligence book. It's everything you need to know about ERGs. It's a short quick read. But you can at least start to think about some of the things that, you know, should be in place before you really get going. The second thing is to really talk to some employees. And usually, I mean, we just did this with actually a company that's based in the Netherlands, but they have they operate in 42 countries. They said, look, we want to do we want to have a conversation like a town hall almost where we can come and talk about what these groups could be like and will look like. And if you're interested in learning more, come and talk. And so we led that that conversation, knowing that not everybody was gonna show up, but at least you start to attract the people that have that interest, and you build that community then to build and leverage it through your organization. But to expect a single diversity person or department for that matter, if there's still a department in your organization, or to expect the employees to do it on their own, it's kind of naive.

Joanne Lockwood: This has been a fascinating conversation. This hour has flown by in addition to the 20 minutes we were chatting in the green room beforehand. I'm sure the listener who's got to this point is dying to find out how to get a hold of you. Where could people track you down? Well, all right. I'm going to give 2

Alyssa Dver: URLs because get on there and contact us on both pages will will find its way to me if you have a direct question. So the ergleadershipalliance.com is the one around ERGs. Ergleadershipalliance.com, just like that. And the American Confidence Institute.com is the brain science confidence entity. So if you have 1 or either one, you can go to and contact us and it'll get to me. And you work globally?

Joanne Lockwood: It's not just US focused? It's all across Europe, Asia?

Alyssa Dver: Everywhere. You know, it's interesting I say American confidence. And we were very deliberate when we started that because it is very focused on North and Central and South American confidence constructs. But the data and the research we've done globally, and we certainly do present around the world. And forgive me for saying that this, but at least physiologically, our brains are the same. So so, yeah. And

Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn is a good place to track you down as well. Absolutely. Just my name

Alyssa Dver: is a little tough to spell, so I'll spell it out loud if that's okay, Jo. It's A-L-Y-S-S-A D-V-E-R. And you can find me. I'm the only one, thankfully, with that tough name. And I welcome any and all connections, comments, and love to connect with people online as well as over Zoom or whatever you use.

Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Again, thank you so much. It's been a really insightful conversation, and I hope that January doesn't bring you more sadness, and that you and your friends can find some solace in a future where it's only 4 years. It's only 4 years, and I can just move to

Alyssa Dver: London, right? Go to London. Yeah. You're welcome here. No. You know, it is only 4 years, but at the same time, it's gonna be a tough 4 years. And I I rely on people like yourself and others in the community that we, we're so proud to support that, we're gonna get through this together. And it's gonna make us stronger, smarter, and more prepared for all the challenges that have yet to unfold. And let's hope that the this coming 4 years

Joanne Lockwood: is the end. So this is an end date. There's no second bite of the cherry or third bite of the cherry. There's hope. There's hope. Yeah. Well, again, if it if it isn't the

Alyssa Dver: end, we're gonna be ready. More ready than we ever were before. But, you know, here's the thing. It's not a fight, you know. Don't want people to think that, you know, it's this aggressive. We're gonna fight it. I think what it really is is really finding the way, as we've said through this entire interview. It's not a win win. It's not a it's not a win lose situation. We have to find win win. And so part of this is, maybe coming to the table with some some smarter ways to make people fear less that they're losing. And fearless that, we all have to be the top of the pyramid. It doesn't work that way. Yeah. I suppose we have to recognize that 75

Joanne Lockwood: odd million people are not all wrong. So there must be some points of view in there that are worth sharing and understanding. Although hard to work it out. Yeah. For sure. Thank you so much for having me

Alyssa Dver: today. What a what a lovely opportunity to talk with you. So thank you so much. Alyssa, thank you. As we

Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.