---
title: "No Expected Outcome"
episode: 141
date: 2025-01-02
guest: "Steph VanHaverbeke"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/141-no-expected-outcome
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-141/audio.mp3
---

# No Expected Outcome

Joanne Lockwood speaks with Steph VanHaverbeke, co-founder of the House of Coaching, about what happens when you stop chasing a fixed result and allow space for creativity and renewal. Steph shares a pivotal moment after a business bankruptcy where choosing a day of music They explore how perfectionism and constant performance can become self-imposed constraints, and how reframing ‘baggage’ into useful ‘luggage’ can support growth. Steph describes coaching approaches that help people uncover resources inside what they usually experience as obstacles, including a mindscaping exercise that reframes perfection as both beautiful and inherently imperfect. The conversation also touches on Steph’s gender transition and how it shaped her empathy and authenticity, alongside reflections on gender as a social construct and the impact of progressive gender legislation in Belgium. They end by discussing the disruptive rise of AI, the need for critical thinking, and how technology can free people to focus more on human connection and relationship-building.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 02:00 — Inclusion Bites: conversations on inclusion and belonging.
- 03:34 — Overwhelmed by tasks, turned to music instead.
- 07:56 — He felt unable to pursue creative freedom.
- 12:37 — Embracing change in relationships caused minimal resistance.
- 16:01 — Transform baggage into opportunity; view hurdles positively.
- 19:32 — Facilitated creative conference drawing on large paper.
- 23:17 — Comfortable now; journeyed through self-discovery and growth.
- 27:18 — No major differences between male, female brains.
- 29:15 — Gender is a spectrum; individual experiences vary.
- 33:07 — Promote human intelligence and critical thinking skills.
- 37:18 — Focus on AI's immediate benefits, not implementation.
- 38:10 — AI automates tasks, enhancing productivity and relationships.
- 43:57 — Teaching and coaching to positively impact lives.
- 48:11 — Fascinating conversation about gender transition experiences.
- 48:56 — Join Inclusion Bites, amplify impactful voices.

## Key takeaways

- The importance of letting go of perfection and accepting "good enough" to foster progress.
- Creating a temporary collaborative artwork as a metaphor for the beauty of impermanence.
- The concept of unloading unnecessary baggage to focus on essential aspects of life.
- How transitioning can provide a profound sense of freedom and authenticity.
- Insights into balancing dualities and fostering personal change through imaginative exercises like mindscaping.
- The role of critical thinking in evaluating information and navigating societal norms.
- The impact of AI on work dynamics and the essentiality of using technology wisely.

## FAQs

### What is the main theme of this podcast episode titled "No Expected Outcome"?

The main theme revolves around letting go of perfection and embracing the concept of "good enough" as discussed by Steph VanHaverbeke and Joanne Lockwood. This episode dives into the beauty of impermanence, shedding unnecessary baggage, and transitioning towards authenticity and self-acceptance.

### How does the episode address the idea of perfection?

Steph VanHaverbeke suggests that while perfection is something worth striving for, it is also something we should be willing to let go of. Joanne Lockwood adds that "perfection is the enemy of progress," underscoring the importance of accepting what is "good enough."

### What significance does the collaborative artwork at the conference hold?

The collaborative artwork created by visual practitioners at the conference symbolises the beauty of impermanence. It was designed to be temporary, highlighting the value in ephemeral experiences and allowing participants to embrace the moment without attachment to a permanent outcome.

### What is the analogy discussed about luggage and baggage?

The analogy likens unnecessary emotional or mental baggage to physical luggage. Steph proposes that individuals should unload this baggage to focus on essentials that provide value and benefit in their lives, paralleling a journey towards personal improvement.

### How has transitioning impacted Steph VanHaverbeke's sense of self?

Transitioning allowed Steph to feel liberated and more comfortable in her own skin. It provided her with an integrated understanding of gender and psychology, which has been essential for her personal growth and authenticity.

### What is Steph's coaching approach?

Steph employs a transformative journey approach in coaching, guiding clients to identify and embrace previously rejected parts of themselves. She uses imaginative exercises like mindscaping to help clients find balance and acknowledge the duality within perfection.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 141 with the title, no expected outcome. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Steff VanHaverbeker. And that's not easy to say a flourished name as an English person. Steff is the cofounder of the House of Coaching. She empowers professionals with cognitive agility and inclusion driven strategies to thrive in a rapidly changing world. And when I asked Steff to describe her superbash, she said that it is her empathy and self confidence enabling her to deeply understand unique challenges and empower individuals to uncover their strengths. Hello, Steff. Welcome to the show. Hey, Jo. It's great to be here. Absolutely fabulous. And how did I do on your name? Did I did I get it close? It sounded perfect. Thank you. And I know it's hard. It is. It's, the Dutch language is a law unto itself, isn't it? With lots of, guttural Yeah. Sort of throat noises, isn't it? It's a It comes from deep within. Deep within. Yeah. I've had many Dutch friends, and I've been to that part of the world many times. And, yeah, we sit in bars and laugh about pronunciations and things. And Yeah. I

Steph VanHaverbeke: know. So you you Steff. You were doing great. Yes. Thank you. Thank

Joanne Lockwood: you. So Steff, tell me more. No expected outcomes. What's all the heard about? Yeah. Well, it's,

Steph VanHaverbeke: it's something that I I realized a few months ago. Beginning of this year, we're we're now December of 2024. And, and past year, so in 2023, post COVID, my main business, my main activity suffered from the COVID pandemic and went bankrupt. So that meant that I had to reinvent myself, reinvent my business. In Dutch we have this beautiful word it's called Dorstaat. So it's starting true. That's not starting here, but you're making a true push something through through through the troubles, through and at the same time, I was going through my gender transition as well. So this meant there was a whole lot of stuff going on at the same time. And and, and at one Friday morning, beginning this year, I had this long, long, long, long list of things that I needed to do. And I sat in front of my computer, like I'm sitting here now, and watching its screen and just a whole list of emails and all you know you know, that feeling. Too much to, you know and and you you want to get through it. And then my eye felt on this, synthesizer that I got for my birthday. And I was still wrapped. It's, it was one of my old passions to make music. And I said, come on. What? Hell, let's let's unwrap this thing. And I hooked it up, and I played music the whole day. And what I noticed is that by doing this, by shifting my focus away from, you know, the result oriented tasks that I needed to do, I felt energized. I felt inspired. I got back into flow. And I was able to do that list of tasks, in just maybe an hour or so afterwards. Just because I I, yeah, resourced. I refined my energy by having by making a small decision, actually. And that's that's that's what this neo or no expected outcome. That's what this that's what this is about. So that's quite a challenging journey

Joanne Lockwood: you've had there. So a complete reboot. Yeah. But so he had no expected outcome from that, but you knew you knew what wasn't working. You just weren't sure what would work. Is it is that kind of fair? Yeah. Yeah.

Steph VanHaverbeke: No. It's it is it is. No. I reflected a lot afterwards. After that particular Friday, I went Friday evening, I went walking with my dog in the park here and, just right in front of my house. And, as I was walking, I reflected on what what happened. And it doesn't seem like a lot happened, but it was for me, it was very profound because I was, you know, I'm a person who was always, you know, out there putting the foot on the pedal and put the foot on the pedal and plow through. And just by making a small decision to take a step back, to do something that I'm passionate about, being creative a whole day and having no expectation about this, not having not having this sense of guilt. I need to do this or or this will get me in trouble. So this there was no no guilt involved. So it freed me. It set me free, actually. And then as I was walking my dog, this this this word came to me, no expected outcome. I had no outcome that I was expecting from that day. I let it go, and that meant that I was able to reenergize myself. And yeah. And that's that's something that I that I discussed with a lot of people since and I found that But presumably. Yeah. Presumably. But when you when you were going

Joanne Lockwood: up to this period, you must have had a a lot of apprehension, fear Mhmm. Nervousness, all these kind of words of limiting beliefs, things holding you back. Yeah. Was there a a particularly defining moment that you remember that was the key to the lock that allowed you to move forward? It was a conversation with a friend. And,

Steph VanHaverbeke: I was talking about this my experience. And we were sitting in this, coffee shop drinking a cup of coffee and and having a sandwich. And, and then I was discussing you know, just talking about my experience. And then he said, you know, this is this is so recognizable because, you know, I'm also somebody who, he said, who who's really, you know, focused on, you know, results, results, results. I have to do this. I have to do that. I need to do this, and it needs to be perfect, and this and that. And, and as he as he was describing this, he burst into tears. He said, this is, this is, you know, he said, this your story is also my story because I have the same experience, but I'm not not able myself to do this, to do what you did. And it's such a simple thing. It's making a decision. But they said, I know from myself I won't be able to do this because I have this sense of, you know, if I would do this, first of all, I don't know if it would work for me. And second of all, yeah, would I be able to allow myself to do to make such a decision? And I had thought, you know, WTF, what is going on here? How how are we programmed that we have to perform every day? We we are robots and we have to be economically, you know, a piece of the machinery. I mean, that we don't allow ourselves this this small freedom to to be creative when we want.

Joanne Lockwood: Would you looking back on it, would you say that COVID created the the the challenge with your business, which created the bankruptcy, which then empowered you to gender transition, or do you think it was kind of a bit of everything? It was a bit of everything.

Steph VanHaverbeke: It's not I did not transition because of COVID. No. That that that that has been part of me for a way longer time. But it is it is it gave me the that that was something maybe that was an element, that it gave me the time to reflect on things. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I I I reflect on some of my my own history and my own experience. The once, momentum is in in progress, you know, you've got some movement on change. I'd almost felt that the need to just change everything rather than change a bit because you think you come back to it and you just pick at the edges. You got to cut deep and cut really efficiently into your life and say, hang on a minute. This isn't working in all these different aspects. And if you're going to change something, you must have just give it a go. Yeah. There's something there, of course.

Steph VanHaverbeke: This this kind of this this is a kind of change that is profound because it's about your identity, and your identity determines so much. You know, it's and it's it's a very, very, very small things. It's not only the big things. It's not only about how you present yourself or how you you know, what what are you going to wear today. It's it's it's part of it, but it is it is not that. It is it goes so much deeper. And and, of course, COVID COVID played. It gave me the opportunity, to do this in kind of my own, my own tempo. You know? My own pace. That's that's true. So in that sense, yeah. So we'll talk a bit more

Joanne Lockwood: about your coaching and what you're doing now. But can I just ask you a couple of kind of questions around you're living in Belgium, you mentioned to me before we kicked off? What's the, let's say, the climate for you as a a transgender woman? You know, we see what's going on in the US. We see what's going on in you probably see what's going on in the UK. I have very little knowledge around what it's like to be a transgender person in mainland Europe. How does it feel to you? Well, I feel very

Steph VanHaverbeke: lucky because in Belgium, we have one of the most progressive legislation around gender and gender equality and gender. You know, that you can simply, as a Belgian citizen, you can simply go to the how does it call it? The city hall, to the administration, and just state, this is now my gender. And that's it. And they have to change everything legally just because you are making that statement. So it's very easy. There's Belgium, they decided that there shouldn't be any hurdles because that would be discriminatory how to say that? Discriminatory. Yeah. That's a difficult word for me as a Flemish. Yeah. So, and in that sense, we are very lucky. And in terms of society, when I made public that I was transitioning, I got nothing else than encouragement and people who appreciated what I was doing and found it very courageous and things like that. So that's, that's even in my, it starts in my own family, of course. My wife, my daughter. Okay. My wife is a little bit different story, of course, because we were not married as a woman with a woman. We were married as a man with a woman. So and that's some still something, of course, we we have to work on every day, you know, because it's it's rocks the core very core of your foundation of your relationship. But in a broader sense, you know, within my family, with my coworkers, my, you know, my clients. Yeah. It was very, they welcomed it almost. And yeah, that's, that's I don't say that this is the experience for everyone in Belgium, but I built my life already in such a way that I surrounded myself with people and also what I do as a profession in a way that people would just, you know, that there wouldn't be any resistance to the to the to that change, to my transition. What was the biggest thing that surprised

Joanne Lockwood: you around your transition? Yeah, that's a good question. Well,

Steph VanHaverbeke: the person who had the most trouble with all this in my life is me. Yeah. It took a long time before I made before I decided, you know, I have to do something about this. That took a long time. Of course, you know, I'm 55 years old now. Meaning 50 you know, about 50 years ago, there wasn't much about gender. You know, that wasn't something people thought about. You know, it's just you're born in a certain way. You are, therefore, a girl or a boy. You know? And there was no awareness around it or on that topic. At least not in my family. Yeah. So, I could I can imagine when I if I would have been born now, things my wife would be a whole lot different. But in

Joanne Lockwood: your coaching, you do now with working with individuals and organizations, what insights do you think that your your gender transition has had in your, your insights you help people with? It allows me

Steph VanHaverbeke: to be more empathic. As I said, you know, the first person I had to deal with with how my whole transition was myself. I was the first person who needed to accept this, that this was a reality. And so now I'm I'm very more aware when people come with whatever issues that they have. I'm I'm much more able to put myself in the other shoes. And, I have a real sense of, you know, what what is going on. And, of course, I'm not only able to be more empathic, but also more authentic. And I can can truly speak from my heart now. Whereas before the I I always had this kind of a shield, you know, you project you project a persona to the outside, which is inauthentic, and it it's it felt also always felt wrong. So I'm

Joanne Lockwood: it may be expected outcome strategy or mantra, if you like. We, as humans, we kind of we have our biases, we have our preconceived ideas, and we bring all this baggage with us, don't we, with these outcomes? How do you work with people to get into, if you like, let go of the baggage and and start to see possibilities. Yeah. There's there's difference

Steph VanHaverbeke: between baggage and luggage. So I like to have some luggage with me, but not the baggage. And this is how I also you know, this is my frame when when people come with me with with whatever baggage they have and it's it's like, what is in there that could be transformed into something else that would be useful for you? But what I found is that the greatest hurdles that people deal with in those experiences lies the the root of the solution. Like like we just said, because of COVID, I had all these troubles. But also because of COVID, it created this opportunity for me to to look at the world in a different way and to experience something that maybe otherwise I would have never experienced. So there's always, you know, there's there's this coin that has two sides. So what I what I do is when I have a coaching client, and not only asking questions, you know, what are your goals and what are your resources and blah blah blah, but it's like a journey. I look at it as a journey and an exploration where people can discover parts within them that maybe they would have rejected somehow in the past, but now are able to give it a place and see it as a resource. And maybe I I'll give an example. Someone just said, you know, I'm, I'm having trouble relaxing. I'm I'm always, in my mind, busy, busy, busy, busy. And I find it very hard to create the mental space that I need to feel at ease, to, yeah, be myself, actually. And so what I what we did, we we did a little exercise, and it's kind of an it's kind of a imaginary journey that you make in your own landscape. It's called mindscaping. And during that exercise, which is a guided meditation slash hypnosis. It's a bit of both, and it's very metaphorical. It's kind of a guided dream almost. And and then there was this girl that came to her and, she says, she's perfection. This girl is perfection. And she offers me a flower. And the moment she got that flower, she burst into tears and she said, okay, I see the beauty of it, but I also see that the flower is cut. So even though the flower is perfect, it is not perfect. So this is whole duality there. And that changed the way she looks at the world now. And now she's able to see that perfection. You know, it is elusive. It is something that you can appreciate and you can strive for. But at the same time, you know, perfection is also something you can let go. And it is yeah. They often

Joanne Lockwood: say that perfection is the enemy of progress, because we're so busy trying to get everything completely right, completely okay. And sometimes good enough is good enough, isn't it? It

Steph VanHaverbeke: is. It is. And, just last weekend, I, facilitated a conference for visual practitioners, which are people who are helping organizations to, you know, solve problems, be more creative, brainstorm, teach, and all these kind of things. So I was facilitating this and, people had to draw on big, big, big sheets of paper, you know, what their intention was for the day, for themselves, for each other, and so on. And so as we were as a group with about 40 people, drawing on a big sheet of paper about 10 meters wide with all kinds of colors and making drawings and putting on some slogans and whatever. And and one of the one of the participants came up to me and she said, you know, this is so amazing and so beautiful. It it is something to, wow, to to really hold on to. And she said, you know, what else? What is going to happen with this piece of this big sheet of paper after the conference? And I said, you know, I I look at it as a as a mandala. It only exists here and now in this moment. And it exists for you, and it will still exist afterwards in your hearts because you have experienced it. But after this, the paper will be gone. You know, we will tear it up and put it in a bin. And she said, that's, you know, she had some struggles with that idea, but it is beautiful. It is beautiful. Yeah. Because You said just now

Joanne Lockwood: that you've it's different between luggage and baggage. I I thought that was a really good analogy there, where we often fill up with carrying around baggage. So what we need to do is we need to unpack all of our baggage and extract the valuable parts, the luggage. Yeah. And jettison those baggage elements. So we're traveling lighter with stuff we need, not bogged down with everything we don't need.

Steph VanHaverbeke: Indeed. Indeed. And just to reflect for the listener also, just just ask yourself this question, what is holding me back? What, what do I keep dragging behind me? Like every day that I maybe don't need? Or maybe there's something in there that is of real value. Just when I look at it in a different way and it becomes lighter and it becomes something that is useful for you. And it's not holding you back. Most of the change we

Joanne Lockwood: actually need within ourselves, isn't it? It's, you said earlier, what was the biggest surprise? What was the biggest barrier? Yourself holding yourself back. And what we find is we become our own limiting belief, our own perfectionist, or we could become constrained by our own beliefs, don't we? And that's what we need to unlock sometimes. Because if we don't take a step forward, we'll always stand still. And it's a ton of work out to find that bravery or that or realize that we're more uncomfortable by being where we are than we would be by moving forward.

Steph VanHaverbeke: Indeed. For instance, for me, I've always felt that, when I was, when I was before my transition, I had to prove myself. I always had the sense, you know, I have to prove myself that I am a man. I found that very hard, by the way. It took a lot of energy from me because it was it didn't feel natural for obvious reasons. And, and once I let go of that, it transformed me. And I now I feel free. I feel a lot lighter. I feel a lot more comfortable. And I couldn't really be myself in front of a whole group. Whereas before, I always felt like I had to put on an act. And that is, you know, that, that what that part of me was, was the baggage. But, but it also had the roots. Because, because it's brought me on this journey to really explore and investigate and find out what was going on and to learn a whole lot about how the brain works, about psychology, even though I'm not a psychologist. But, you know, and I pushed myself, you know, learning and teaching about this, you know, in front of groups of people as a trainer and as a coach. And this really enabled me to to let go of a lot of things, but also to transform and reintegrate some parts of, you know, not only the science and the knowledge that we have about, you know, what it means to be human and, you know, and about gender and all these things. But it also helped me to to integrate on a on a deep, deep, deep level the experience that I had. I wouldn't be the person that I am today without that experience. It is the foundation of my confidence today. So I

Joanne Lockwood: mean, I think it's fair to say that many people don't understand about being trans, gender, non binary, or having a gender identity that is not as aligned that you were given at birth. So you said just now that you spent many, many years of your life trying to prove to the world you were a man, and you found that exhausting, tiring, and something that was making you feel uncomfortable. Do you now find the challenge is having to explain what being trans for transgender means and having to maybe justify yourself as a woman to certain people? You definitely

Steph VanHaverbeke: don't have the sense that I have to justify anything. No, no, no. That's that's not the case. I had to justify before my transition. I don't have to justify anything now. So no. No. The it's it's it's it set me free. And now I I am able to really let me tell you with a concrete example. A few days ago with with with somebody, he was, you know, a good friend of mine. We were walking in the city. We had to pick up some things. He had to go to the printer to pick up some, you know, yeah, some orders that he made. And when he was in the print shop, the owner of the print shop came in and said, hi Karl, how are you doing? And blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, they're making jokes and, you know, going in this typical male bonding things that I never understood. You know, I cannot grasp what that is. But now that I that I've transitioned and I am truly who I am, I can connect with people in such a better way. It goes way easier. It goes directly. There are no walls anymore. So there's no need to justify anything. Whereas, yeah, that's See, you just

Joanne Lockwood: are. There's no there's no kind of discussion here. In the same way, I'm just a woman. You're just a woman. We just are. We don't feel the need to prove that. To make it

Steph VanHaverbeke: very blunt, if somebody would come up to me and challenge me on this, I would challenge the other person also on their identity. You know, it's the same thing. You don't challenge anybody on their you know, on parts of their identity. You cannot have any judgment about that. You mentioned some you're not a psychologist,

Joanne Lockwood: but you did some working on understanding the brain and the, its perception of the world. Do you wanna give me a little bit more background of of what you uncovered when you were going through that? Well, what I found

Steph VanHaverbeke: particularly interesting is, of course, you know, what are the differences between male female brains? Is there any science to really back this up? And, yeah, what I found is basically there isn't really. Meaning that the brain changes as we grow older. Of course, there's different processes, you know, the brain only becomes adult when we are about 25 and the brain doesn't deteriorate, like, in a sense that an older person could have a brain as healthy as 25 year old. If you do particular activities that keep your brain healthy. But in a natural flow of things, of course, the brain changes over time. Things become harder to remember and all these things. So the difference between a brain of a 4 year old and a 94 year old are far greater than, of course, the brain between a man and a woman. And, you know, and even saying that, of course, there are some differences that will be about the size and about, you know, the but you cannot generalize. I was during the conference, I'm from Belgium and there were people there from Norway, Sweden and Holland. I don't know if you ever looked at those people, but they are my neck still hurts because I had to look up the whole time. But they are even the women are, you know, they are they have a lot more stature than I have. So it's not about size. It's not about, you know, particular parts of the brain. It is more how we use our brain that makes the difference. Yeah. And so there's there's also some culture involved, nature and nurture. But what I found was that the way I used, I've used my brain my whole life is typical for a woman. The things that I was interested in, the things that I that caught my attention, the things that I you know, even though I do like Star Wars. But I've also found that a lot of women like Star Wars. So I'm not the exception here. So we have all these preconceptions about, you know, male female, about male female bodies, how they should look, how they should be, about our brains, how they should work, how they shouldn't work, and so on and so on. But basically, the template is human and gender is a spectrum. You can believe it or not, but it's science. And, yeah, just, you know, where are you on the gender spectrum? And for me, I found that being in the male part of the gender spectrum didn't work for me. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The whole concept of gender and roles and what you should like, what you shouldn't like is it's all a social construct. We've we've made this stuff up. We made it up. We've decided we've decided we we give labels to things like that's a that's a man's thing, that's a woman's thing, that's a men should like this, women should like that. That's a man's toilet, that's a woman's toilet. We invented this stuff in the 20th 21st century. Most of the stuff before that was role based, based on what you were trying to do. And society has kind of enforced these rules without any, well, as a blanket approach, without any real understanding about what, how people see themselves in the world? Yeah, that's true. Actually, a lot

Steph VanHaverbeke: of the constructs that we hold as self evident are very recent. Victorian age was an age where a lot of the social norms that we adhere to today, you know, they not originated, but they became like the norm. And, you know, that's that's also something, you know, being a transgender woman and having walked that journey, I'm much actually, I consider myself in a privileged place because I can see certain frames that are just non existent, that a lot of people believe about the world that are simply not true. So, yeah, I like to think outside the box. Yeah. No, I

Joanne Lockwood: agree. And I think, again, going back to your experience of doing a diversion halfway through your life or 3 quarters away through your life, wherever you want to look at it, that you are able to put down the baggage, as you say, and and and pick the path that works best for you. Going forward, what do you believe is is kind of the future for you and the world and the people you help? I

Steph VanHaverbeke: think we'll we'll we'll come into a time of of particular challenges. We have the rise of AI. I mean, if you're just, you know, seeing the first the first, first emergence of that, even though AI is is much older than what than many people realize. But it will change the way we work profoundly. And it will put into question what makes us human and what makes us intelligent. You know, there will be a whole lot of philosophical ideas floating around about that one. But also for many people, they will also have to transition, in a certain way and and society as well. So we we we face particular challenges. It's not I who's saying that. It's everybody who's who's working in that area sees that. And I think that my contribution being here on this planet today is to share some of my experiences and to also to teach people some of the principles and techniques, how to really leverage human intelligence and remind that, you know, we are not robots. We are different from the AI and the bots. And if you have a tedious task to do today, go to chatgptorclod and make use of AI and use it in a smart way. But also when you are with people together, the stupidest thing you can do is to listen to one person and say, okay, he should be he's right probably or she's right probably or whatever, and not challenge that. We are here today alive because we are able to communicate, to invent, to create, and also to think critically. And that is something that is a skill that should be taught from kindergarten upwards. Think critically. When you hear a politician in Belgium, they had elections together with European elections. So before the summer or that beginning of the summer, we still don't have a government. And what these people show is profound lack of leadership. They are bickering, they are discussing about topics that really don't matter and they are not able to come to an agreement. That is, that is, that is not leadership. That is stupidity. And that's plain and simple. So we need to be very careful about what we believe about the world, what we do with our, you know, with our lives and how we spend our days. And I'm here as the advocate. Spend your days wisely and do things that, you know, give you energy, that set you free, make you look to the to the world in a different way. But that's that helps you and the people around you. It's plain and simple. Should we be scared about AI? I mean, it's

Joanne Lockwood: we talk about masculine, feminine, non binary, and AI truly is an is an it. It has no gender identity or concept of self. It is it's making stuff up based on patterns of other of old information. Yeah. Yeah. It has no identity.

Steph VanHaverbeke: We we give it identity, but it has no identity. It still is a machine. Maybe someday, I don't know, but definitely not for the foreseeable future. But it it has all the it resembles someone who has identity and personality and all these things, but it's not. So will it change the way we work? Most definitely. Will it take away jobs? Yes, of course. Will it create new jobs? Definitely. So the question is not, will I be without a job because of AI? No. No. The question is, how can you use that new tool to make your job better or to make your life better? So start using it. That's but in a smart way. And and don't forget, you you are not a robot. You are you are not a machine. You're a human being. So be smart.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, that that's my view of AI. I'm a great believer in using it as a an assistant, a tool, automation, light for heavy lift. Fundamentally, at this current time, as we say, December 2024, it doesn't have a soul. It doesn't have a conscience. It doesn't have feelings or empathy or love. Any parameters and patterns. And you can often tell the difference between an AI generated picture or content, unless it's been heavily crafted by someone who gives it and injects it, a personality and soul, it can appear very empty and heart without without a center, without a heart. Yeah. So

Steph VanHaverbeke: but for so we face this, this huge change as a society. It will be very profound and we will start to feel the the thing is, a few weeks ago, I, I was giving this presentation about the impact of AI. Somebody from the audience asked, you know, in our company, there's a discussion. Should we implement start to implement AI? What is your take on that? And and I said, well, you're asking the wrong the wrong question. Oh, it's not about should we. It's not even about about, you know, how or when. It is, you know, what can AI do for us today? And when you look at AI, what it can do? The answer is obvious. It can help you. It can serve you in in in in amazing ways to boost your productivity, to really set your people free. And I will give you a small example. And and one of the organizations that I that I, that I'm working with, they started to implement AI to they have offers coming in and documents in various formats, PDF, you know, and they have to OCR it and and all that these things. And it's still a quite a manual job because because of the different formats. They started to use AI for that and create a workflow. And now it goes on automatically. And and the role of the people from the from the department changed from processing data to building clients' relationships, which AI cannot do. Yeah. So it's obvious. Will it change? In a sense, it will make it more human. It's only if we choose to. So If we look back at human history, you know, we we we go out,

Joanne Lockwood: I don't know, 30, 4000 years, about the time where Homo sapiens became the dominant human species beyond the the the andetholes and the other variants of human evolution. We were living of the moment. We didn't we we were we were hungry. We'd catch something. We'd eat it. And then we mechanised. We created agriculture. We started keeping animals as livestock, as food for the future. We started planting plants and cultivating. We took control over our destiny by not having to live at the moment. And, of course, we industrial revolution, mechanising boats, ships, airplanes, tools, engines, petrol, etcetera. We've we've we've created all these things over time. AI is just another evolution of a tool along with computing and other other devices, mobile phones, Internet, satellites, GPS, is another tool that will displace existing methods and technology and work and replace it with different paradigms. It? Of course. You know, like, let's

Steph VanHaverbeke: make an analogy. Before we had washing machines, women had to spend hours, you know, rubbing clothes in fresh water with soap with their hands in order to clean the clothes. Because of the washing machine, women were set free. And it seems like what? Yeah. But my mother, when she was young, roads parts. You know? I still see people in many parts of the

Joanne Lockwood: world who have to walk for half a day to collect water and walk half a day back again with the water. Yeah. Irrigation, sanitation.

Steph VanHaverbeke: So, yeah. So technology service, of course. Can technology used to be used against us? Most definitely. Yeah. Like everything. You know, a tool for chopping wood can be used to kill somebody. So we have to be very smart about this tool and really think about, you know, how we will use it to benefit us and to reflect also on, you know, what does that mean for us as humans? The way we work, the way we earn money, it will be it will be different. You can see that already happening. So it's

Joanne Lockwood: exciting. I'm excited by it. It's one of the few things I think, if only I was 20 again. The the technological leaps and bounds that are occurring right now in the world, I wanna I wanna another 50 years of this. I mean, I'm I'm a bit older than you, not much. I'm thinking, hang on a bit. By the time this gets really exciting, I'll be in my seventies. I wanna I wanna another go. I wanna go around again. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's

Steph VanHaverbeke: life is a mandala. We as a species,

Joanne Lockwood: as a society, as a family, we're we're growing and evolving all the time. And I guess, you know, if I if I had my life again, I'd be wanting the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Like, you're you're a

Steph VanHaverbeke: podcaster. Could you have could you have imagined, like, 5 years ago or maybe 10 years ago, it didn't exist? No. And the the ease, you know, I I we're using a

Joanne Lockwood: platform now called Riverside, which has AI technology. It helps produce show notes. It will clean the audio up, take the clicks and knocks out of it. And when I first started this, I was going into tools and I have to clean up the audio myself. I'd have to hire someone to read through or listen listen to the episode, transcribe it for me semi manually. And, yeah, I can turn a show around now in 20 minutes, half an hour, whereas it would take me half a day before. So huge leaps about. Yeah. It's making the podcasting accessible. I can also generate assets for YouTube and bouncing audiograms and other things. When this episode goes out, you'll be able to access this on YouTube with a bouncing audiogram as well. So, yeah, lots and lots of tools out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for the for that part of the future. I mean, I'm less less excited about some of the other trouble we've got in the world, you know, the the rise of the conflicts that are developing between certain parts of east as versus certain parts of the west. And there's some north south issues. There's poverty, there's eco climate change, extremist views dominating the world, fueled by social media, by media bias. And you think, well, hang on a minute, we're creating a more enlightened society, but with all these flashpoints, all these triggers that are there. Yeah. Yeah.

Steph VanHaverbeke: Well, I like I like to see myself as someone who has a positive impact on people. And that's why that's why I teach, I coach, I talk. And people you know, for me, it's all about a human connection. You know? In essence, it's about, you know, us and, you know, what you what we are doing here on this planet. And my small contribution to that is every time I see somebody struggling with something, to maybe open a door in in their metaphorically in their minds where they can see a new path, something else that they hadn't seen before. And 1 by 1, person by person, if I can see that's happening, that that gives me a sense of purpose. For me, I'm 55 years old. I'm here to prepare the next generation. So the people usually who come to my training courses are late 20 until early 40, usually. So these people have to do it for the moment. They have to they have to pick up those tools. They have to pick up those skills as well. They have to be they do things differently than their predecessors. And they have also to be able to challenge their predecessors, even if they are their bosses. And it's a bold statement, but it is necessary. We're

Joanne Lockwood: going to give our listener some advice. What is the one top tip you'd like to leave them with as a result of our conversation today? The top tip based on

Steph VanHaverbeke: what we discussed is think again. When you hear something, when you see something, really do the research, make sure that you make wise decisions. Be knowledgeable. You know, you hear sometimes people say, you know, things are not what they seem to be. And then, you know, this is a whole conspiracy. Well, there is a conspiracy, and this conspiracy only lives inside your head. You know, the conspiracy is we are the system, and we can change it. And so you can change it. So the so think again, be smart, be knowledgeable. Believe

Joanne Lockwood: everything you hear and see, because it's a deep fake with media bias, with people's bias. Yeah. You're right. We've got a challenge why people are trying to say something or what they're really trying to tell us. Yeah. Excellent. News news is a product. Yes. Or if it or you're the product, so I'm trying to sell to you.

Steph VanHaverbeke: Sometimes you are the product. Yes. Completely. Yeah. So be How do people get a hold of you, Steff? If you want to track

Joanne Lockwood: you down, what's the best way to get a hold of you? Well, I've had

Steph VanHaverbeke: I have this very, very, very tiny, tiny, tiny website with only one page on it, and it's coachsteff.life, and that's Steff with double f. So coachsteff.life. And there you find all the all the inroads to what I do and where where you can see me or find me or reach me. I

Joanne Lockwood: just clicked on that link now. Let's have a quick look. Yep. It's coachsteff.live. Blue background. There's a picture of you in the middle. And, you got you got some audio books on there. Is that, you got a free book of you? Yeah?

Steph VanHaverbeke: Yeah. Yeah. So I got some books there. And and also I would like to offer, based on our discussion, I will create, a small guided meditation like we discussed. Yeah. Kind of a a guided dream that will help your listeners, so you as a listener, to open your minds and to, to get smarter. So I I'll put that together, and, I will put it on the link. So coachsteff.life/inclusionbites.

Joanne Lockwood: I'll put that in the show notes as well so that, we can signpost it easily for people who have not quite got to the end of the podcast. Maybe they've nipped off for coffee halfway through and forgot to forgot to press play again. Who could do that? Yeah. Or

Steph VanHaverbeke: whatever. Or it's side tracked. It's been an

Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fascinating conversation, Steff. I've really enjoyed meeting you, getting to know you, and hearing some of your thoughts about the world. And it's, a lot of what you're saying resonates deeply with some of the things that I went through when I gender transition coming up for 10 years ago, and the the challenges I have with my wife, my children, and my work, and my colleagues and things. Yeah. The world's changed in the last 10 years. Some of it for the better. Some of it, I'm not going to say for the worst. It's just different. Just different. It's a different colour. That's what I'm going to say to Near the brown, but it's the the sunny. But, yeah. But, yeah, it's different. Thank you. That's that's it's been absolutely fascinating. So, thank you for listening in this far. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.