--- title: "Turning Lead Into Gold" episode: 139 date: 2024-12-19 guest: "John Sands" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/139-turning-lead-into-gold audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-139/audio.mp3 --- # Turning Lead Into Gold Joanne Lockwood is joined by John Sands, an ERG trainer, to unpack how organisations can turn difficult, polarising moments into constructive conversations and tangible workplace improvements. They explore what Employee Resource Groups are for, how they create safer spaces and belonging, and what it takes for ERGs to thrive through genuine organisational support, sponsorship, and resources. The conversation ranges beyond the workplace to examine how media sensationalism and social platforms can amplify echo chambers, distort statistics, and harden positions. Joanne and John discuss why people cling to certainty, how “headline thinking” fuels division, and what it looks like to disagree without dehumanising one another—especially when freedom of speech meets the risk of harm. John also shares the personal impact of severe COVID-19 illness, including his time in a coma and the lasting mental scars that shaped his commitment to disability advocacy and support. Across the episode, the focus stays on empathy, education, and allyship as practical tools for building more inclusive cultures—at work and in wider society. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction to John Sands and ERGs - 03:16 — Turning Lead into Gold: Empowering ERGs - 05:06 — Understanding Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) - 08:07 — The Organizational Benefits of ERGs - 10:46 — The Importance of Allyship in ERGs - 13:29 — The Backlash Against Diversity and Inclusion - 17:12 — The Complexity of Inclusion and Exclusion - 21:32 — Freedom of Speech vs. Inclusivity - 25:32 — The Role of History in Shaping Perspectives - 27:38 — The Need for Open Conversations - 30:19 — Media Influence on Public Perception - 36:10 — The Rise of Armchair Experts - 40:58 — Personal Experience with COVID-19 - 46:30 — Dreams and Reality in Coma - 51:40 — The Emotional Journey of Illness - 58:50 — Connecting and Sharing Experiences ## Key takeaways - The emotional and psychological toll of severe COVID-19 infections, detailing the isolation and fear experienced during hospitalization. - Critique of anti-vaccine sentiments drawn from firsthand experience with the disease. - The surreal and vivid dreams experienced during a medically induced coma. - The role of healthcare professionals in providing care and emotional support during critical illness. - The establishment and importance of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs), and how they can fail without proper support. - The necessity of allyship and educating individuals outside ERGs to combat skepticism around diversity initiatives. - The influence of media headlines on public perception and the importance of critical thinking when consuming information. ## FAQs ### Who is John Sands and why was he featured on this episode? John Sands is an advocate for vaccination and an expert in Employee Resource Group (ERG) leadership. He was featured on this episode to share his personal experience with COVID-19, his recovery journey, and his work in promoting inclusivity in the workplace. ### What is the significance of the episode title "Turning Lead Into Gold"? The title metaphorically represents John Sands's transformative journey through his severe COVID-19 illness and subsequent efforts to turn his hardship into positive advocacy, much like turning lead into gold in alchemy. ### Why does John Sands emphasize the importance of vaccination? Having endured a severe case of COVID-19, which included an 11-day coma and a precarious survival rate while on a ventilator, John Sands uses his personal harrowing experience to advocate for vaccination. He believes that vaccines can save lives and prevent others from experiencing the severe consequences he faced. ### How did John Sands contribute to disability advocacy? John Sands founded a disability ERG as a response to the mental scars left by his COVID-19 experience. This group aims to provide support and representation for employees with disabilities within the workplace. ### What role do healthcare workers play in John Sands's story? John expresses profound gratitude towards healthcare workers who supported him through his critical illness. Their kindness and encouragement were crucial during his time in an isolation chamber, helping him maintain hope amid fear and uncertainty. ### How does John Sands view the implementation of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)? John Sands underscores that ERGs should be genuinely supported and not just created for appearances. Without proper backing, these initiatives can fail, and it's crucial to promote allyship and educate individuals outside of ERGs to combat skepticism and backlash against diversity efforts. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 139 with the title Turning Lead into Gold, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome John Sands. John is a certified ERG trainer who employs. Sorry, empowers, no less employee resource groups leaders, to unlock their full potential. Drawing on his vast experience as a founder, leader and ally, he brings a fresh and impactful perspective to creating inclusive workplaces that celebrate diversity and drive meaningful change. When I asked John to describe his superpower, he said empathy, with the added alchemy of transforming challenges into golden opportunities for connections and growth. Hello, John. Welcome to the show. John Sands: Hello, Jo. And thank you very much for inviting me. It's a privilege to come onto your podcast. Yeah, it Joanne Lockwood: was great. I say we randomly met. I mean, in the world scale of things. It wasn't a planned meeting. I was invited to a function you were co hosting in London and we got chatting and in fact, we found we had a lot in common. Similar age, similar military background, similar outlook on life. Yeah. And John Sands: similar place of living as well. So we're not far. Neighbors. Almost. I'd say almost neighbours. Yeah. We've got the same weather. If we look Joanne Lockwood: out the window. It's been snowing this morning. Yes. Yeah. And John Sands: very, very cold. So I'm wrapping up and the heating is on and it's all. Yeah. Snuggled down to get some warmth in my bones. Yeah. So where are we? We're sort of midway through Joanne Lockwood: November or later. Later in November, actually, in 2024. So, yeah, it's a bit of an early cold snap. Yes. Yeah, John Sands: absolutely. John turning lead into Joanne Lockwood: gold. Tell me what. Yeah, you sent me John Sands: the questions and you asked my superpower and as is. I couldn't just say, well, it's to empower ergs et cetera, which obviously it is. But I wanted to put something in there about turning lead into gold, and now you brought me to task with that. So I've now got to think of what I mean. So if I was to use that for my professional role, it would be taking ideas and putting them into something that you can use and make a difference. So when I'm working with employee resource groups, you can call them ergs, call them, you know, business resource groups, call them affinity groups, whatever you want to call them, and taking these ideas and joining the dots with these people. And it's not normally me creating that goal. The goal is created by the people that, you know that I'm teaching. So I'm. Or not teaching, or just could be facilitating, if you like, but getting these people to speak and to take an idea and make it real and for it to really make a difference in the workplace. And we were chatting, Jo, before we started recording this, about how the ERGs can make a difference within an organization is exactly that. By making these people, not making them, but helping these people to make good what they want to be doing with their community groups. So I would say that would be. That would be gold, really. And like I say, the gold is created by other people, not me. I'm Joanne Lockwood: sure we've got people listening who probably not familiar with the raison d'etre of a ERG employee resource group, staff network. How do they manifest themselves? What's their purpose in the world? Well, it's. It's giving John Sands: people a safe place within an organization. And this could be, you know, small. It could be a hundred people, up to thousands of people. And just to give you my background, I work for a large corporation and I was part of the DE and I another lovely. We love an acronym, don't we? Diversity, equity and inclusion. So I was part of that within this company. And I helped to create an ERG around disability and also was an ally for the LGBTQIA erg, the Black alliance erg. And also I was part of the Veterans erg. So these are groups of people who want to come together. I call it a safe space. And they want to join forces and make the workplace better for them to help for the issues and challenges that they have and create a group where they can talk about their challenges, they can hopefully make a difference within the company to do that. With the disability ERG that I was a co founder of, because of my experience with COVID we looked at how my company could better support people with disability. And because A disability erg. And I know we hesitate to use the word disability, but the challenges that people, even if they're neurodiverse, if they're physically disabled, if like me, it was again hesitate to use it, but I will. A mental issue around my experience with COVID how they can be supported with things such as, you know, help within the workplace, getting into work, time off from work when needed. So it gives you that support around you with people who are like minded and facing the same challenges. And that works across all employee resource groups. We had Latinos and Nidos, which are Latin American, a support group, like I said, the LGBTQ +IA group, disability. There was women in technology, there was, you know, so many groups that we had within there. I was lucky enough to be working at a company that supported them and allowed them to do it. So, so that's what an erg, it's a group of friends, I suppose. A group of friends. A group of like minded people helping to make the workplace a better place to go to. Yeah. Because they can be Joanne Lockwood: extremely powerful from an organizational perspective as well. It's from my understanding the perfect relationship is where the symbiosis, where the members of the ERG feel that advocacy and belongingness and safe space to better be themselves. Also the organization benefits from having sounding boards. They can use them strategically or even tactically to look at challenges, can't they? Yeah, well, we used to work John Sands: quite heavily with the recruitment side because we're finding more and more now when people go look at joining a company, they'll go to their webpage, they'll look at what diversity or ergs that they have within that company and that will help them to make the decision as to whether they should join. But not only that, also once they are there is making sure they don't leave because I don't have the exact figures to hand. But the cost of, you know, if you bring someone on board, you train them up, you bring them into the company, you go through all that process which takes a while and then they just leave. The cost to the company is huge. So by giving them a workplace where you know, they want to stay, then that, that really helps. We can have rose tinted glasses and say, well, companies just want to do it because they want to support their workplace, but they also want numbers. They also want to say, well okay, I'm doing this, but why? How is it helping? Because they're a business and you understand that. But it's quite easily, I think, quite easy, I think to, to, to bring, put figures together and to support why you should have an erg and why you should invest in that. Because, you know, there's, there's so much you gain from it. And if an employee doesn't see it, and not all do, there are some that are quite, they will, they will say the right words and they will say, oh yeah, we need EIGs because everyone else is doing it and they're not supported. And that's another big pitfall for this kind of thing is they'll say, yeah, we need it, we want it on the website. We want to show we're, you know, we're a diverse corporation. But then they don't, they don't help to make that survive. So it with us on the vine, basically. And that's another important part of not just having ergs, but making sure that they flourish and making sure that the people within them feel they're being supported either through money or by the, you know, board level sponsorship, et cetera, is just as important as saying, yeah, let's do it and let's not support it. Which happens. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I was at an event last week, I think it was, and Bruce Daisley, the culture expert, ex VP of Twitter Europe, I think he was there talking. And one of the things, one of his insightful throwaways is a real sense of valuing and judging employee experience and, and the belongingness in organization is that one good sign is your best friend works at your organization. Yeah. And ERGs can foster that belonging and create you, if you like, friends outside of your day to day colleagues in an organization. And we know that creates stickiness within the culture, doesn't it? I think absolutely. And you're John Sands: right there. And that's why I feel with ergs, allyship is so important because we're not only, look, we're not only looking to support and educate the people within that group, but we're also looking to then support people outside of that group to understand. And education is very important. And that's why I said allies is, you know, make, make a huge difference because you can, you can preach to the choir, but you really want to educate people outside because if you don't do that and you just, and we mentioned earlier, like I say before we came on the podcast about an echo room, you're just talking to people who want to hear that you, you need to for a true erg to work or is, is to, is to bring on people who maybe are a bit skeptical about it. And we're finding a lot, and especially in our Current political climate. We are finding a lot where, where that skepticism is becoming more and more prevalent, where there's a backlash towards diversity. They are saying, well, we actually want to get rid of diversity. We don't want that to happen. And there's that polarization between this is diversity and this is, you know, what we want to do. That's something we really need to stop, I feel, and is unfortunately becoming more prevalent at the moment. In my head I'm thinking DEI must Joanne Lockwood: die. So. Dei. Yeah, it's almost like the, that's the kind of the pushback at the moment that diversity is seen as a negative now. Or the initiatives not, not the, not the out end result with the initiatives have got such a bad name. Yeah. Maybe poorly implemented without consideration of return on investment. People from a majority are feeling excluded from an inclusion exercise. You know, how can you, how can you create an inclusive, inclusive culture by excluding people? And I think, yeah, people are feeling excluded because they're not black, they're not. They're not gay, they're not a woman, and we're marginalizing people. And that's. And that's something I John Sands: have experienced myself being a white male. I have felt sort of not part of the gang, if you like. And that could be a perception by me. But yeah, I've definitely. I have felt that really, you know, being what I am. And I, I grew up at a time where it's looked back as being, you know, a black time, not black time, a dark time where I was doing. I'm trying to put together actually a presentation around and I called it Poor Little White Boy because I grew up in a time where we had. Even now it sort of shuddered to think about it. When you think of, you know, shows like the Black and White Minstrels buying a jar of marmalade with a cartoon character. I'm not even going to say the name on the side of it, which you had to collect to get a badge. Where people, you know, like Alan Turing being gay was illegal and some of the tv and I grew up with a father who was a misogynist. He's passed now. Misogynist, a racist. And people look back on that time, and rightly so, they say, you know, that it was a bad and unenlightened time then and I grew up within that environment. And they say that people can be formed by what they grew up with. And absolutely not for me, if anything, it made me shun those ideas. It made me into who I am and not in a bad way. And I'M not saying that everyone who grew up in that time, you still get, people say, well, you know, I grew up in those times and it was all right then, wasn't it? You know, we were, we were okay. But, and, and, and that phrase of, you know, all the good old days, the days of, you know, where I felt comfortable, the days of where everything was okay, wasn't it? And those people are there and you see them every day. And my father was, was one of those. But it certainly doesn't shape me. And I'm of the, the strong feeling. You just get bad people. You just get people that are bad no matter what, what, where they come from, whether they're, you know, lgbtqia, whether they're black, whether they're white, whether they're Christian, whether they're Catholic, whatever, you just get bad people. And, and I hate to be painted with that brush to people to think. And this is, I think is one of the worst things that you can do in any. We talk about diversity, we talk about racism, and racism is painting everyone from that, in my view, anyway, painting everyone within that particular group of people as one thing, as by saying, well, all Muslims are this, all Christians are this. You know, everyone within the LGBTQIA plus is this. And that's where racism comes on. You just, you just get bad people. No matter what you're doing in life, you just get bad people. I think. Yeah. But inherently bad Joanne Lockwood: people don't think they're bad. No, of course not. So we all, we all actually believe we're good people. Every single person believes they're a good person. Yeah. And within your echo chamber, within your circle of friends, within your tight knit community, within your, whatever you want to call it, we all believe because we're being reinforced. We're product of our upbringing, product of our environment. If everyone says, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Confirmation bias. Yeah, you're kicking. Whistling affinity bias. All this stuff kicks in and then you believe that you're, you're us and everybody else is them. And that's, that's the problem sometimes is we get so locked up into our own belief of us and everyone thinks, like me. Yeah. We look at Brexit, we look at the political elections that go on, we look at what's going on, going on in America. I can't believe that anybody would vote not like me, given the choices, but clearly over half the population believe something different and they're not daft. There must be a reason, but I can't fathom it. Because I live in a different reality and I don't understand why they're, why they're polarized in a different way. Yeah. With the amount of conversations. My mum, I John Sands: love so much and has been such a big part of my life, not having a father figure in my life. My mum has been there for me and my comfort blanket is my mum through my childhood and even today. But she voted Brexit and the conversations we've had around that. And you think, wow, yeah. And this is my, obviously my opinion around the whole Brexit thing. I think it was a terrible thing that happened, but my mum did that. Someone who is such a large part of my life. So, yeah, I'm Joanne Lockwood: sure my mom voted for Brexit as well. She's an avid Daily Mail reader. She's a GP news watcher and very blue. And she often speaks highly of some of the people that I would question their opinions on. I got my mum off the John Sands: Daily Mail. I got her moved from the Daily Mail to the, to the Daily Express. So I'm hoping it's a little bit, little bit better than that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you, you very, like you said there, Jo, around, they believe that what they're saying is correct and within their, within their world. And this is exacerbated, I think, with. Because the echo chamber nowadays has got huge, isn't it? When we look at Twitter and we look at Facebook and we look at all the channels that are available to us, that echo chamber is hundreds of thousands of people. And then you're going to think, well, okay, if they say it, then it must be true. And everyone's a hater. And that's where the polarization has come in, I think. And that certainly was there for Brexit. And also when I speak to my American friends around the elections recently with the presidential elections is it's been such a polarization. Whereas before, and I look back to both with the political arena within the UK and also within the us, you could be. You could support a party, but you could still have friends who supported the other party. But you're finding now, especially in the US and with Brexit here, it actually will tear those apart. It will break those friendship bonds or family bonds. Even parts of the same family no longer speak to each other because of the way that they're voting. So it's got. That polarization is incredible. Really is. Yeah. One of the golden rules that I was Joanne Lockwood: always taught when we were growing up was you don't talk about religion. Politics or money kind of thing. And those aren't polite conversations for the dinner table or the workplace. But we have to create spaces where our beliefs aren't submerged. Because when you talk about psychological safety, you think about bringing your whole self to work. All these buzz phrases that we use today, if you're having to suppress your views and beliefs, it's not good for you as a person if you're working in an environment where you can't be who you are. So how do we square this circle of paradox where the intolerance of intolerance, you know, it's kind of. We got to be careful here. We can't all speak our mind. No, it's funny, isn't it? Because we were talking John Sands: about the, you know, at the conference we had in London where I got to meet you, we were talking about a governance around resource groups. A governance around. Because you can't, you can't say, right, anyone can create a resource group because of what that brings on. So yes, we can say we're inclusive for everyone. It's like when they started saying, well, you know, white lives matter too, all that side of things. You have to be careful, really, around that side. And if there's right wing organization and they want to create an employee, a resource group as well, how do you do that? It's a difficult one because inclusivity should mean inclusivity. Freedom of speech should mean freedom of speech. But my thoughts around that are, if anything that you're doing, if anything that you want to say, right, we want to get a gang together. If that harms other people, if that is directly aimed with anger to other people, then that's where we draw the line, I feel. Yeah, I mean, that for me is really where we say, well, okay, we do have the right, but you have no right to personally enforce your views upon other people and second of all, create direct harm within other people. And I think me personally, that's where I would say, you know, we should draw the line. We look at Joanne Lockwood: some major political figures in our history, we know we look. Well, I say art history, world history. Nelson Mandela, freedom fighter, terrorist, world leader. Lech Vowensa, freedom fighter, terrorist, world leader. And you look at Sinn Fein and some of the leaders, Jerry Adams, people like that, they went from being terrorist, freedom fighter to political leaders in their country. And we now see Sinn taking a political stance even within the north of Ireland. So it depends on who's writing the history, doesn't it? Well, absolutely it does. John Sands: Yeah. There was the, the, the issue in Bristol with the statue of the. And again, apologies, I forget the name of the person, but I very vividly can remember them pushing the statue into. Into the river of Bristol. You know, person who. Who put a lot of money into schools, put a lot of money into the local community, built buildings. Bu. Slave trader. So that, you know, where. Where does that sit? What do you do with that? I mean, I put. I personally think if the context is there and people understand that and people are educated around that and it's not hidden from, then that is part of history. It's the same with. With Nelson Mandela. I mean, again, I'm. I apologize for not being. To know as. As much as I should do about things like that. But we. We put content. It happened. Yeah. These people went through a process. Some would call it terrorism, some would call it fighting the fight. It depends where you sit on that, doesn't it? And I don't feel either you or me can sit there and comprehensively say, you know, that's wrong, because, you know, I'm not sure you can do that. Yeah. And I mean, bringing it back to the workplace and Joanne Lockwood: we've got bit onto world policy. We have, yeah. Very deep. You end up with this inherent conflict between the rights of each other. You know, in. I've seen in the civil service, they've set up a staff network that champions the supremacy of sex over gender to almost like oppose the LGBTQ plus network, to give people who have those beliefs a place where they feel belonging. So you have to allow people to have these thoughts and beliefs and what we call a projective belief. But somehow the organization has to wrestle with this to stop it becoming toxic or weaponized. And I, And John Sands: I truly feel that there is a place for both there. But that should be encouraging conversation that should be saying, well, okay, you know, I disagree with this. I feel it should be this. But to. Because there's been a lot of, you know, militant actions around these things where people. It's almost. It is almost like a battle. I'm right. This is wrong. You know, you can't do that. You can't do this conversation. We are. We should be talking about it. And even if we can't say, oh, okay, yeah, I agree now. Which doesn't always happen to respect people and to understand, if not to fully agree, but to understand and to realize that we are all human beings, we have a right to do that and to feel that way, that's fine. I don't agree. That's fine. We can still live together with that. We don't have to be butting up against each other the whole time. We don't have to be, you know, agreement all the time. Maybe I'm being a little simplistic. I don't know, Maybe. Maybe I am. But my feeling is we can live together even if we don't agree all the time. Yeah. I was Joanne Lockwood: watching a debate on Facebook the other day. It was about, I think there was some. I think it happened at horse race and some horses died at the weekend. I'm not sure exactly the story. And someone put a post about horse racing should be banned and someone chipped in and go, well, hang on a minute. It employs loads of people, the animals. And there was this polarized view around any animal that is enslaved by a human being is bad. Any animal you're putting to work for you, riding a horse is bad. Riding an elephant is bad. It's like there's someone trying to come up with another opinion. And eventually the weight of view on this post was heavily animal rights focused. And so all the people that were trying to chip in with a balance effectively put their hands in there and said, okay, I give up. I shouldn't have joined this conversation. I'm out. And then people didn't want to let them out the room. They kind of say, now hang on a minute, I haven't finished beating you up yet. I want to keep, I want to keep going. You don't get my point. I want to keep telling you, okay, that's okay, we disagree. I'll beat you up enough until John Sands: you eventually come round to what I think is the right way of doing stuff. Joanne Lockwood: So people, people aren't happy with that retreat and acceptance. Okay, okay. We have a fundamental difference here. Some people want to keep going and that. And that's. They won't get, they won't be happy unless they've had their satisfaction of agreement. I think we all go to for John Sands: headlines because headlines make people listen or they make people watch. It's like my mum will ring me up and say, oh, you know, the country is swamped with immigration. You know, we need to sort that out and say, well, you're reading a headline. They sell newspapers. They're not going to say, oh, things are actually a bit okay at the moment, aren't they? We don't really need to worry. Let's say that's fine. That's not what is going to sell a newspaper. The headline is going to sell the newspaper. And I do feel that we then have adopted that. And especially when we can sit behind their Keyboard and be on a Facebook chat thing or on Twitter or something. We shout stuff because it gets a reaction. It gets people to shout back. And we all want to get that reaction. We all want people to go, well, because that's what we feed on is people. No one wants to sit there and have a nice conversation. Yeah, it's all a bit okay, actually, I agree with you with that. That's all brilliant. We want headlines. Whether that's in a newspaper, on a message page or on anywhere, we want headlines, we want reactions. And we are able to do that with the media that we work with. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think something in the media the other day it was all about working from home, working in the office. The headline was something like the ONS has discovered. The ONS trusted body would chuck them in there. These trusted statistics. The people who work from home rest 20 minutes a day more than those who work in the office and do 15 minutes more exercise. And then they then quoted Jacob Rees Mogg saying, see, these lazy people working from home are sleeping during the day. Yeah, well, hang on a minute. No, at no point did it say sleeping during the day. It just. They had 20 minutes a day more rest, but did 15 days more exercise. And suddenly we extrapolated that to being anybody's working for a reason. More lazy, therefore. Yeah, John Sands: not doing anything. Yeah. There's no statistic Joanne Lockwood: on productivity in there. So they cherry picked out the resting and the exercise. So people are going on their treadmill, having a sleep and doing less work. QED statistic. Ons. John Sands: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's incredible. And this has been, I think, again, going back to the whole of the Internet. You know, I've had an, an incredible life. Actually. When I look at when I started my career, there was no Internet. There was, you know, I went to school, I didn't have. I didn't have Internet. And I've gone through this, this gradual iteration of more and more and more and more of access, which is a wonderful thing in some ways, but a terrible thing in others. It's, it's, it's a beast of, you know, of two sides really, because we've got the amazing technology that allows us to communicate and to share information. We've got. The flip side of it is, like you were saying there, Jo, around us being able to. We're not just now creating a newspaper article, we're taking that newspaper article and we're putting it out to everyone that can then grab that. It's been an incredible journey to where we are. And we just need to understand that, we just need to realize that what's, you know, I try to educate my mum and say, well, you know, around the headlines, around all the information. She doesn't have a computer actually, so slightly different for her. But yeah, it's. It's using a brain. I have an amateur interest in, into neuroscience and using this amazing brain that we have and filtering it through two things. I hate, I hate now reminding this and I hate hypocrisy. And those two things, hand, hand in hand with the incredible wealth of information that we have out there are dangerous things. Dangerous things. And we got now, we've now got people in power that, from my perspective anyway, have both of those things. I've got a friend I follow on Facebook. Joanne Lockwood: Every so often he'll pop up with a very sort of predictable remark. Yeah, and today I'm going to be an expert on nuclear missiles. Last week is. Today I'm an expert on US politics and today I'm going to be an expert on this. It's so like. It's what happens every. Every day, whatever's in the news, people become armchair experts. It's like the. It's like when the World Cup's on, everyone is home England manager, everyone knows which team they should have played and they're doing the critique. And we're becoming Facebook experts on everything, aren't we? John Sands: It is that what you just said there reminds me, if you've ever watched the Fast show, there was a character that came up this week. I am mostly being eaten. Terabysolata. It's. It's. That is that that's reminded me of that and how we. Yeah, we automatically become wheelchair experts on information and sometimes that can be. Can be harmless and a bit of fun on other times not. So it's the way that that person then can be an armchair expert on hate can spread information easily. And there are a lot of people out there, especially when they. I mean, we talk about social media, pundits and social media, you know, experts and these huge followings of millions of people, sometimes they might have been a pop star at some time, they might have been a, you know, the B list. Celebrities that we talk about can get huge, huge followings and can spread that. That expert perceived expertness by them. Them becomes a fodder for the huge audience of people that they have following them. And I think it can be. It can be a dangerous thing because again, because of the spread or the audience, these people can reach out to sometimes and people will just believe it. Some people will Just you know, go, go down that route and take everything as verbatim that they, that they hear and that, that's where the ed. That's where the education comes in. Yeah. So Chris Hoy is suddenly an Joanne Lockwood: expert on cancer, on everyone's cancer and really. Okay, yeah, about. Well, no, but that's how the media are now. He's now the go to spokesperson so he's adding his brand and credibility to raise awareness. But he is an expert on himself. He didn't realize. Yes, yes, John Sands: absolutely. Expert on cycling. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Expert on being in the Olympics, an expert on winning gold medals. But he's now participating in the experience of going through a life changing condition which is obviously terminal and very sad. Very sad for that. So he's telling his story in Raw to the public and you gotta be careful that he doesn't necessarily give advice or expert advice, just his personal experience. Yeah, John Sands: yeah, that you're, you're right on that. And again that goes back to my comment earlier about people taking it verbatim as Chris Hoy is now the, you know, a professor on cancer. It's a very sad that he went through and. Yeah, and him and his family having to go through that is, I mean, and cancer is. Yeah, that's. I've had not, not myself experience of it but friends that have had it and passed away. It's. Yeah, it's a terrible, terrible thing. You Joanne Lockwood: mentioned at the beginning of the show and you mentioned, you talk about a bit in the green room. You also mentioned it when we met a few weeks ago around your expertise in Covid. Yes, I would not John Sands: say expertise in any way whatsoever. Experience. Experience. Yeah. Of COVID If you call at this time 4 years ago I was in a, in a, in a coma after catching COVID back November time, beginning of November. So yeah, I got the usual cough and, and then, then, then got hold of the one one one and they then sent an ambulance and then I ended up in, in hospital with COVID and I did, I did a diary the whole time on what I was. I'm so glad I did because I can go back and go through my experience with that and right from you know, turning up and thinking, oh, they'll pump me through full of antibiotics or some magic drug that will, will, will make it go away. And there was no, no vaccine, excuse me, no vaccine at the time. So I went straight in and, and gradually was up and down. It was really again from my diary, it was, it was a roller coaster because Covid, the little bastard actually goes to Your brain stem and makes you feel that you're okay so it can do its work. So I was going up and down and I was on. I was on. I was on a thing called a CPAP where they, they force air into your. Into your lungs. It's like, it's the way they describe. Way I would describe it. It's like when you're going along in a car and you put your head out the window. Uh, and. Yeah, absolutely. And that forcing of air into. Into your lungs and the gradual decline. They even sent my. My wife in at one point. And that doesn't happen unless it's really, really bad. And that. So I got to spend some time with her and. Which was a, you know, two things. It was. It was beautiful to see her because I was in a. Basically in an airlock. So I was in a room where you had to. You had to go through. Into an airlock, you know, shut the door, open the other door and come in and see me. Where people, you know, to come in to see me. It was. Had to put in all their, you know, the gloves and the apron and the mask and all that and then come in, see me go out, take it all off again. And if I needed to see them again, they'd have to come in again. Incredibly isolating and very frightening. I was the most frightened I've ever been in my life. And I wrote in my diary, I don't think I'm going to finish this diary because my breathing was getting so bad. And when I. This is another bag of worms. When I, When I hear about people who are anti. Anti vaccine. I would like to bottle how I felt when about 75% of my lung capacity was gone. And I wouldn't want to give them. I'd give them the virus. I would never want to do that to anyone. But I'd want them just to experience how I felt just for. Just for 30 seconds. Just to get the. Where you feel like you're drowning, where you feel like the. You know, you think that's it. And again in my diary I said, ye, this. This is it. I'm. I don't. I'm. I'm going to die. And when it got at its worst, I wanted to die. I wanted it all to go away. And I, And I even. I couldn't speak. So I just went to the nurse. I just. Yeah, I couldn't. And she. I then got put into a. Into a coma and put on a ventilator. And then that's when the fun stuff happened. Then. Because when I met my God. Coma dreams, Jo, I'm not. I'm not recommending it for any, but I was. I was on an NHS cruise ship going to Abu Dhabi. That's what. That's what my dream was. And. And I was going along quite happily on the cruise ship. I had people in beds next to me. I was. We got to Abu Dhabi, I got off the. Got off the. The boat and went to a party. I was still in my bed, I was still dreaming in my bed and I was still strapped in and I had all. Everything on me, but I was in my bed being wheeled around Abu Dhabi and then. And then taken back onto the boat. And then. Then I woke up. Now, this is. I was in a coma for 11 days and I woke up and the first doctor that came to me, I said, do you really send people on cruise ships in the nhs? Because I still believed in my befuddled state that it had happened. And she said, I can assure you, Mr. Sands, you haven't left Portsmouth. So I was. I was on this. On this. I'm sure I was on this cruise ship. I was brought round and was. It was an amazing, amazing thing to go through. I went to. While on the cruise ship, I went to a bird show, I went and saw dolphins while I was on there, and there was a restaurant there. I. It was just. And that was 11 days of being asleep in a coma. And luckily, because at that time, if you were put on a ventilator, you only had a 10% chance of survival, which I didn't realize till much, much later that that was the case. And I come round and I got out and, you know, I'm thankful for the fact that it. That I did survive and I. And I, you know, I did. I did come out of that, but I never ever, never, ever lost that feeling. The feeling I had when I thought I was lying on the bed and I was thinking, what it going to be like to die? What's it going to be like to close my eyes? And I truly thought, I'm going to close my eyes now and I'm going to. I'm going to be dead. What's that going to be like? And that's why I was part of the founder of the disability rge, because of the mental scars. I'm. Now, my lungs are fine. I have no physical scars from that and none whatsoever. But the mental side of that and that feeling, because you never lose that. You never. I'm not sure you should either, really, because the experience makes you. What you are, but it is something that stays with you forever. You know, reliving that sometimes. I don't mind reliving it now, like we're talking now, I'm quite. Quite happy to do that. And I do it a lot. I like to talk, as you probably can tell, but there is a scar there that I've got. So Covid for me was incredible. I've taken all the vaccines I can find. Bring me a vaccine. I'll have it. Yeah, absolutely. Kidding me. Vaccine trial. And did that as well. Because. Because I believe this is going to sound like a cliche. We've all been hitting the saucepans outside our house during COVID But what they did for me, the wonderful, amazing nurses that came in and gave me from being in that isolation chamber that I was in, that came in with smiles, and I said to one of the nurses, you know, what's it like out there? And he said, it's terrible. He goes, you know, people are passing. And she. She stroked my arm and said, but not you. You're not going to go. And. And I thought, wow. Yeah, it was. It was my thanks go out certainly to. To all those. Those people, my consultant, my nurses, whoever that did that was. That was amazing. Guess it's good you were Joanne Lockwood: going to Abu Dhabi, not on the Titanic. To New York, if otherwise. Yes, yes. No, the ship didn't sink. The ship actually John Sands: docked in Southampton and let me off in an ambulance and. And brought me back to Portsmouth. The qa. Did you feel. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: I'm guessing. Please enlighten me. Did you feel time passing or was it random images? Or did you feel like you were in an Agatha Christie movie or something? No, time passed. So, you John Sands: know, I went to the bird show, I got wheeled out to the bird show. I went to the. I think it was dolphins, some weird animal swimming in a tank. Yeah. So time, it wasn't purely linear, I don't think, because there were times, actually I had part of that was not Abu Dhabi. It was going out and meeting up with my family in a cinema somewhere. So that happened as well. So. But. But in my mind, I've kind of logically placed it together. Maybe it was. Maybe during the dream it was all over the place, I don't know. But the brain, as I said, is a. Is a marvelous organ. And. And I think it probably helped to put it into some. To make sense of it, to shuffle the cards that were dealt me during the coma and put it into a logical place. I'm sure that may have happened. But my recollection now I did a video of it. I put it on, on YouTube. So I. Whereas I, because I did some videos while I was actually in hospital with the mask on and with that. And I put that together in, into a video that I put onto, onto YouTube. So I think, I think I almost certainly would. To make. Because your brain does that to make sense. If it doesn't quite fit, it will, it will say, oh, okay, well this could be there, that should be there, this should be there and does that. So it's not like I woke up from my coma at the beginning and then went into it at the end. It give it some kind of linear side to it. Does it feel at the time or Joanne Lockwood: your memory of that feel? Did it help your state of mind? I mean, were you scared in this, in this home, A dream? Were you having a time of your life? Were you worried about things in this dream? I had some sad moments in there. I mean, one of the people that John Sands: I was with on board the ship died while I was there. I had some, I had some great. I had some frustrating times when I want to go and see the bird show, but they wouldn't let me in. I had some times where I was on board ship and I asked one of the nurses to go and take some pictures of Abu Dhabi because I'd never been to Abu Dhabi before. And she got chucked off the ship because she shouldn't have been taking pictures. So I was worried that, oh my God, how's she going to get home? Well, I'm all going to have to pay for that. I'm going to have. I want her to get home. So I had, I had all of those feelings as well while I was in there. So it was a complete mixture of emotions. The cruise ship side is actually explained because I spoke to one of the nurses afterwards. She said, well, the reason this happens a lot is because you're on a bed that is moving because they want to stop you getting fresher sores. So the bed is moving. Yeah. So being on a cruise ship or being on a boat is quite normal. I was in the Navy as well, so there's probably a part of that that came in. I thought there were children underneath my bed. At one point I was lying in my bed and there were children bashing underneath my bed. And that's because they put these compression, blow up compression tubes on your legs to stop you from getting DVT and that was the bashing. So yeah, so there's a whole mix of emotions in there. Not. Not one. The whole time. I don't remember being frightened at any point. I remember being worried that I wasn't going to get back on the ship on time because they'd taken me away and done whatever. But no, I don't. I was never frightened. The frightening time was when I was awake. That was frightening. Joanne Lockwood: As you're talking now, I'm thinking. I'm thinking back to the Matrix film, the first. John Sands: Oh, yes. And the artificial world that's created for Joanne Lockwood: people. You realize the AI realized that it couldn't be perfect. It had to have challenge and risk and drama because a utopian kind of world isn't real. The human brain needs something more. So maybe you actually created drama out of your thought so your mind has something to tackle and challenge it. I think you're right, because that's John Sands: our life again. Our brain is a very. We use the word plasticity adapts and molds itself to your experience and your life. And we create these neural pathways with synaptic pathways which are based upon our experiences in life. And we build those. Some good, some bad. And those neural pathways are what create your dreams. Because, I mean, the amount of dreams I have when I'm worried I'm not going to get to the airport, or I'm worried that I'm going to miss something, or I can't get my suitcase, and that's me. My God, when I go to the airport, I have to be there three hours before, no matter where I'm going, because I worry about. About not being there on time. I never understand people who say, oh, I get there 10 minutes before. You know, I never, never worry about that. That would, that would drive me mad. I just couldn't do it. So. So yeah, yeah, your, your, your brain doesn't change when you go to sleep. Yeah. Some of the dreams I have as well that we won't talk about now, you know, are not part of my everyday, everyday life. But, but, yeah, but most of it, the bones and the, the, the pathways are there no matter if you're dreaming or if you're conscious. They said that Joanne Lockwood: the. You talked to the nurses when, when you woke up again and they kind of explained away the boat and the compression, all this kind of stuff. Have you spoken to any other coma survivors about their experience? Or is this you just your own. You're your own expert, if you like. No other. No, John Sands: no, I haven't. No, I haven't. And not long after I came out, I thought, would that be a good idea? I Got a bit frightened about it, I think, when I thought, oh, yeah, okay, maybe it's a cause. There isn't anything out there. There isn't anything, you know, of people. Well, not that I know of anyway. So I did think about it, but then I backed up because I wasn't sure how I could handle that with other people. You know, I'm talking about it quite happily now and I'll talk about it with my wife and with my close friends and. And put a YouTube video out there, but I'm not sure how. Well, at that time, certainly I wasn't sure how I would deal with that. And I did get a bit frightened, so I backed off from it. I've gone through counseling and I've spoken to a therapist around there, but putting a support group together, I've not done that again, as I said, I think I got a bit of cold feet on that. Joanne Lockwood: I've got two experiences in my life that gives me some relatability to what you went through. I never went through a coma, I don't believe. So when I was about 12, 13, I went on a school excursion to France to Entre tat to see the Tapestry, the Bay of Tapestry. Nice. And on the way back, I'd obviously developed some sort of flu, cold, whatever it was. And on the boat, my temperature, I had this extreme high temperature. I had to stand on the deck of the boat to try and cool myself down. I was in the bar area, wherever it was, sitting area, and my temperature rose and rose and rose. And eventually, obviously the teachers and people got worried about me and they ended up calling me an ambulance onto the boat. So I got taken off the. Really off the ferry in an ambulance with the blues and twos on. Took me straight to Southampton General and put me in an isolation ward. They thought I had meningitis at the time, but it turned out to be some sort of bacterial viral infection. When I had this extreme high temperature, my muscles all locked up, I couldn't move. I was literally rigid. I think my temperature was 106 or something like that on that. On that real cusp of being. And you know, when I went out to the gear, to the loo at one point I went to the door and there's this big red sign saying isolation will do, not enter. It's like, oh, this is quite serious, isn't it? And I look back on. My parents were obviously worried at the time. So, yeah, I had that sort of. And I remember the coach driver, because I sit on the coach waiting for the ambulance, he said, don't worry, you're not going to die. Yeah, I was 13 years old, I was invincible. I didn't think I was going to die anyway. And suddenly someone said they put forward. Whoa, okay. Suddenly that comes home. And the next time it happened was when I was 2013. So 10 years ago, give or take, I got double pneumonia. And it was on Christmas Eve. I was feeling rough for a few days, Christmas Eve, I sat in the chair, all the family around. My throat was raw, I couldn't swallow, couldn't drink anything, couldn't breathe. I went to bed that night, Christmas Eve, and every time I laid back, I felt like I was drowning. Yeah, my throat was so sore I couldn't cough. Of course I needed to cough, but I couldn't cough. I needed to cough, but I couldn't cough. And eventually we called a paramedic at about 4 o'clock in the morning, Christmas Day. Anyway, you need to go to ae. Quick, get there now. So I. My wife dropped me down there and I saw this consultant and he thought I was having an asthma attack, so he gave me this nebulizer to puff on and of course that triggered me even worse and his face went white as a sheet. He thought he killed me, basically. I was choking and choking with his nebulizer. He thought it could. Magic, that'll fix you. And suddenly I'm in a ward, Christmas Day, tubes up my nose, breathing oxygen. And I was feeling. I could, I couldn't breathe. I really felt I couldn't breathe. So feeling a drowning. Yeah, that not being able to John Sands: get enough, enough air into your lungs is because, you know, that's, that's your life for that. And it's. I even had it during my coma dream I had. I was trying to drink a smoothie through my, my breathing tube for whatever, whatever reason, because they tried to extubate me but it didn't work, so they had to put the tube back down again. And I'm probably thinking that was why I had that feeling of drinking a smoothie through my air tube, which is weird. So. Yeah. So that feeling there, you know that feeling you had when you're lying in a hospital bed of all times, Christmas Day is. Yeah. Must have been horrible for me. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Well, the thing is, when you're that ill, time passes in a different way, doesn't it? Yes, yes, absolutely. Everybody else is worried about, your sole concern is staying alive. And one thing I've observed throughout various. I've had other instances not quite as bad over the years is I've come to realize that when you're really ill or not, well, you don't get bored. You can stare at the ceiling before hours a day and you're completely cool with it. And you can tell when you're getting better because suddenly you get fidgety, bored. Yeah. And you want to start doing stuff. So I can always tell when I'm on the recovery, when my mind goes, right, okay, I want to read a book, I want to watch telly. Yeah. But before that, sat on my back, okay, I'm out of it. And I talked to friends who have been through experiences and I said, did you find this point where you started getting bored? They went, yeah, funny that all of a sudden I was really fidgety and bored. I said, that's the brain's way of saying, you're on your way back. They put me John Sands: onto a. Onto a general ward after I was getting better, and that was when I started because I couldn't really get up and about. I had a catheter, I had oxygen, I had tubes everywhere, and I just wanted to get out and I wanted to get up and about and go home. Because when, like you said, when you're really ill, When I was really ill, my biggest worry, yeah, I didn't want to die, of course I didn't. But my biggest worry was everyone else. And my worry was my wife and my children and my brother and my mum. They were who I was worried about because I can't do anything about where I am now. You put yourself into the hands of other people. I can't do any more than just lie here, have them do whatever, and I can't do anything. But the people that are outside of that, because they couldn't come up and see me. That was one of the things with COVID They couldn't come up to the ward, but it was everyone else around. My wife had lost her partner to suicide many, many years ago, and my fault was, my God, she might lose me now after having that. But going back to what you're saying, yeah, I wanted to do stuff. I wanted to get out. I wanted to read, have my iPad out. I wanted to, you know, just. Just involve the mind. Whereas before, my mind was involved with everything else that was around it. You almost just. You're just a passenger. Yeah. To quote the Bee Joanne Lockwood: Gees, Staying Alive stagger. I got to love the Bee John Sands: Gees. Got to love the Bee Gees. John, Joanne Lockwood: I really love this conversation. I mean, we spoke briefly, as we said earlier a couple of weeks ago. And there's a whole load of other stuff that we've got in common. Anyway, we dived into your Navy career and everything else, but. And, and our joint shared passion for the city of Portsmouth, I guess, as well. Absolutely. Well, there's a time for another John Sands: podcast sometime, Jo. We could. There's many, many things we could talk about. Yeah, I'd love to. So, John, you mentioned the Joanne Lockwood: YouTube video. How do people get a hold of you? You're obviously on LinkedIn. Tell people about YouTube video and find out more about it. Just search for John Sands: John Sands on YouTube and you'll also find a very famous Australian, a greeting card manufacturer as well, called John Sands. So that's not me. If it was then, yeah, I'd have a bit more money than now. But LinkedIn, really, I see my life at the moment. I love doing what I. The work I do with ERGs, I work with the ERG Leadership alliance and train, you know, part of. Part of what they do and look out for that. Like I say, go to LinkedIn. If you want to message me, they'll connect then, then please do. I'd be more than happy. I'm a very social person. I'm not as business focused as I was before. I've kind of gone. I'm going through life doing what I want to do now, helping when I can help, using that empathy, which I do see is one of my superpowers. Don't ask me to turn lead into gold. I'm not quite there yet. I'll keep trying, but do just reach out and chat and I'm sure they could contact yourself, Jo, you've got all my details there as well. I'm more than happy. Is it okay to give out my email address if. Is that all right? Yeah. So johnsands@hotmail.com do reach out to me. I'd be great to do that. Go to LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'd be more than happy to chat about that and anything ERG related. Yeah. And if you've got your own Covid story, Then Joanne Lockwood: check your LinkedIn message and see how it goes. Yeah, well, yeah, John Sands: absolutely. It'd be great to hear from other people. I said I got cold feet before, but I'm a big lover of organic work as well, where things just happened and like meeting with you, Jo, you know, last, when we had the ELA meeting in London, you know, these things, these things happen for a reason, I think. I'm not, I'm not. I don't believe truly in fate, but they do happen and when they do, you grab that opportunity and start something hopefully which will be good. John, it's been an amazing conversation. I Joanne Lockwood: really enjoyed the chat today. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.