--- title: "Talking Not Telling" episode: 137 date: 2024-12-05 guest: "Katie Allen" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/137-talking-not-telling audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-137/audio.mp3 --- # Talking Not Telling Joanne Lockwood is joined by confidence coach and inclusion consultant Katie Allen to explore what it really means to “talk, not tell” in inclusion work. Together they unpack why people get stuck in ambiguity and fear saying the wrong thing, and how psychological safety can disappear the moment a conversation moves from business topics to subjects like racism, identity, or gender. They dig into intention versus impact, accountability, and the everyday language choices that can cause harm—even when someone “meant well.” The conversation also looks at echo chambers, polarisation on social media, and how cultural intelligence grows when we actively seek out perspectives beyond our own. A significant part of the episode centres on lived experience. Katie shares her identity as asexual and panromantic, explaining different forms of attraction and how asexuality is often misunderstood—including within LGBTQIA+ spaces. Joanne reflects on how transitioning changed her understanding of gendered experience and highlights how blind spots can remain around race and policing. Throughout, the focus stays on curiosity over perfectionism: creating space for respectful conversation, learning, and changing behaviour when we discover our words or assumptions have negative impacts. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Conversations on inclusion inspire understanding and growth. - 03:26 — Ambiguity hinders conversations; openness enhances understanding. - 08:07 — Good intentions can still cause harm. Learn. - 12:49 — Embrace change, respect personal pronouns, remain open. - 14:16 — Understand others or remain in your bubble? - 16:53 — Andrew Tate attracts disaffected young men seeking validation. - 22:13 — We often overlook others' impactful lived experiences. - 23:50 — Broaden perspectives beyond social media echo chambers. - 28:59 — Social media amplifies bias and polarisation. - 30:27 — Seek understanding through dialogue, not divisiveness. - 33:45 — Listening and planting ideas lead to change. - 37:18 — Embrace discomfort to be a responsible ally. - 42:20 — Asexuality misunderstood despite being in relationship. - 45:23 — Compatibility prioritises humour and intelligence over sex. - 48:29 — Married straight, now trans-cis, exploring bisexuality together. - 49:50 — Aesthetic and emotional dimensions of asexuality explored. - 54:50 — Subscribe to Inclusion Bites; inspire real change. ## Key takeaways - The concept that good intentions do not negate the potential harm caused by one's actions. - The importance of accountability for the impact of one's language and actions. - Strategies for adapting language to avoid harm and improve personal and professional outcomes. - The evolving nature of language and the significance of respecting individual preferences. - How listening to diverse perspectives can enhance communication and inclusivity in leadership. - The role of storytelling and lived experiences in learning and reflection. - The impact of social media algorithms on reinforcing echo chambers and the need to seek diverse voices. ## FAQs ### What is the main takeaway from Katie Allen's broken arm analogy? Katie Allen's broken arm analogy explains that good intentions do not negate the harm caused by one's actions. Just as saying "I didn’t mean to" doesn’t heal a broken arm, unintended consequences of our words and actions can't be overlooked simply because we didn't intend harm. This underscores the importance of considering the impact of our behaviour on others. ### Why does Joanne Lockwood emphasise accountability in language use? Joanne Lockwood stresses that choosing words carefully to avoid harm is effortless and reflects respect for others. She criticises resistance to changing harmful language as dismissive of others' valid concerns, often labelled as "snowflake" issues, and advocates for a more considerate approach. ### How can adapting language benefit personal and professional interactions? Katie Allen believes that language can be tailored to both avoid offence and enhance communication efficiency, akin to terminology use in sales. This adaptive use of language is particularly crucial for leaders aiming to engage diverse groups effectively, fostering an inclusive atmosphere. ### How does language carry connotations of prejudice, and why is awareness important? Joanne Lockwood explains that everyday phrases can harbour colonial, racist, or ableist connotations. Awareness and reflection on our language help us challenge ingrained biases and promote a more inclusive communication style that respects all individuals. ### What are Katie Allen's views on evolving language and respect for preferences? Katie Allen emphasises that language is dynamic and should adapt to reflect current understanding and respect for individuals' preferences, such as using gender-neutral pronouns. Clinging to outdated dictionary definitions often disregards the evolving needs of communities. ### Why should people care about language sensitivity, even if they aren't personally affected? Katie Allen argues that while someone may not feel impacted by insensitive language, adapting one's language promotes better communication and inclusivity. Understanding different perspectives helps build stronger connections, particularly important for leaders. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bytes. And today is episode 137 with the title Talking, Not Telling. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Katie Allen. Katie is a specialist confidence coach and inclusion consultant. And when I asked Katie to describe her superpower, she said she loves rummaging around in grey ambiguity that everybody else hates. Hello, Katie. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me along. This is Katie Allen: amazing. Absolute pleasure. And I Joanne Lockwood: know if you're listening here today, you don't know this, but we've just spent an hour in the green room chatting away. We've. We've had a fantastic conversation and I almost wish we'd recorded some of it, but we've still got loads more to talk about. I'm sure there'll always be things to talk about. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, Katie talking, not telling. Tell me more. Absolutely. This. It's Katie Allen: become one of my almost like, lifeblood conversations now, especially in the work of Inclusion, because it's one of those things. Things that I find whenever I speak to people about the work that I do, everyone gets that sheepish little look. Don't. Then they're like, oh, are you. Are you going to come and tell me all the things I'm getting wrong and all the ways I need to be better? And that's just not my style. I would much rather have conversations. It's like, this, isn't it? I just want to sit down with people. I want to talk to them and understand, like, what's going on for you? How do you see the world? This is how I see the world. And how can we grow together? So it's really become, like, the heart of everything I do. I just want to talk to people and not. And not be telling everybody what they're getting wrong and start a conversation that inspires some action. Yeah, I, I really resonate with Joanne Lockwood: that. You know this. You walk into a room sometimes as an EDI dei, whatever specialist you want to call us, and people go, oh, no, it's the inclusion police. We can't. What we're saying, we can't tell any jokes. We gotta. We gotta do this. And it's like, no, no, I'm a human being. I laughed, I pass wind. I'm a human being. I just want the output to be positive for people and not at someone else's expense. And that's what we're trying. That's what we're saying really is exactly. Somebody else shouldn't be less than, because you are more than. Absolutely that. And then I often find one of the Katie Allen: barriers to being able to have those conversations comes through when people aren't really sure about what they can and can't say. So then no one says anything at all. And then. And then nobody really gets the opportunity and, you know, rummage you around in the grey areas of ambiguity, right, to just dump all of the stuff that's going on in our brains out on the floor and just pick through it so we can say, okay, I know that you see the world this way, but have you thought about, if you were someone else, it could feel like this. And people have that moment of like, oh, I didn't realise that. I didn't. I didn't see it that way. And, and just making that space for people to just, yeah, rummage around in all of that crap that we all bring with ourselves so that we can just make better, better conversations and have better interactions. So why do Joanne Lockwood: people get stuck in this ambiguity? How do they get themselves into this vortex of confusion then. Katie Allen: Yeah, it's a really good question because I don't think that it's the same for everybody, but certainly in the work that I do with leaders, it comes from this place of our own frames of reference that we spend. We spend so much time kind of, you know, surrounding ourselves with people who are like us, you know, because we see the world the same way and we have similar experiences and maybe we've got the same hobbies and we gravitate naturally as humans to people that are like us, and we don't get the opportunity to understand difference, to understand people that have got different frames of reference or maybe have different experiences or opinions. And it's interesting that when, when you speak to leadership teams, we talk about psychological safety, right? And if you want to have A conversation about something business, about the sales forecast or about this, then, you know, it's really easy to create a space where we can speak up and challenge. Then you say, okay, how do you feel about having a conversation about racism? Nope, nobody wants to have that conversation. All of a sudden the psychological safety is not there. And for me, that's. That's super interesting because how can you, as a leader implement your strategy when it comes to inclusion if as a team, you aren't prepared to have those icky conversations that make you feel nervous and a bit, you know, a bit afraid? So if you're not willing to step out of your comfort zone and have that conversation, how can you put actions in place and expect the rest of your organisation to do it? So again, for me, it's about those frames of reference, bringing it back in and making sure you can have that informed conversation. Are people worried about Joanne Lockwood: getting it wrong or they're just worried about being wrong? Katie Allen: Oh, good question. One or both. Right. Because certainly what. What I see is some people are very wedded, aren't they, to the idea of that, the fact that there is a right and wrong. Right. And actually, nine times out of 10, there's no such thing as kind of right and wrong. It's just opinions and feelings and experiences and we get so hung up on the fact that we have to be right because it makes us a good person. I'm doing air quotes for people listening. Like, it makes us this good person and we get so held to this label of local. I'm a good person and I don't want to say that thing because if someone judges me, then I'm getting. I'm going to get cancelled and that'll make me a bad person. And it's really unhelpful because actually we're all. We're all just ordinary. We're all imperfect human people and we are going to get things wrong. Does that make us bad? No, it just makes us human. So I find that such an interesting thing. But, yeah, the difference between. Yeah, being wrong and saying the wrong thing, I think we. We tie those two concepts together, don't we? As if they are the same thing. And actually, I don't know that they are. I think we can. We can make mistakes, we can be wrong and it can be okay. Like, it's fine. I've had people try and defend Joanne Lockwood: their beliefs and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with their beliefs, but they form this. They hide behind what we call good intent. I meant well, but they often don't understand the impact of their opinions, their judgement, wherever it may be. Yeah, Katie Allen: I wholeheartedly see that too. And I agree with you that there is a difference between intention and impact, for sure. And it doesn't mean that you can't have your opinions, it doesn't mean, you know they're yours. You, you live the life that you want to live. However, the minute anything inside your brain becomes a behaviour, it has the capacity and capability to influence and harm someone else. And you are accountable for that. Like, that's on you. You get to make a decision as to whether that's a way that you want to interact with the world or not. And you have to understand that you might approach something with the best of intentions. And I think we, you know, often we can have that analogy of like a broken arm, can't we? If you, if you bump into somebody and they end up with a broken arm, like, you may not have had the intention to bump into them, but you did. And, you know, the fact that you didn't intend to harm them doesn't make their arm any less broken. Like, it's still the outcome. So it's just about understanding those two things can exist at the same time. So you can have good intentions and you can cause harm and, you know, it's what you then do with it going forward. Will you intentionally then continue within the world breaking people's arms and saying things that are harmful, or will you learn from the fact that that thing happened and you're like, actually, I'm going to do something differently as a result of that experience. I think that's the Joanne Lockwood: important thing is when we are being accountable for that impact, it's what do we do with it, isn't it? That's the critical thing there. And I think what? Well, it costs us nothing to change. You know, if I learn that a word or a phrase has negative connotations is problematic, it doesn't cost me anything to modify my language, learn something new. But too many people go, it's just so difficult. You can't say anything these days. Oh, come on, it's just a snowflake. Yeah, it's. We have these big debates about whether something is racist or not racist. And if someone says to me, well, that's racist or has a racist connotations or colonialism or whatever it may be, I won't argue about it, Go, really, come on, it's not. I've googled it. I've looked in the dictionary and it says quite clearly on page two, it's not racist. And then we're not getting another thesaurus out or another this out or another this, and trying to prove we're right, that I'm not racist, rather than saying, oh, I never realised the impact of that. You're right. Let me, let me look into that. But for now, I'm going to park that and not use that phrase ever again because it doesn't cost me anything. I've just learned, and I remember there's a particular word used in the song the Mighty Quinn where they talk about the Eskimo and it was played on Radio 2 and I tweeted Radio 2 saying, you do realise that that song you just played on the radio has the word Eskimo in it, which is deemed offensive by many people. I never heard it played on there again. I don't know if they took what I said, but, yeah, if you learn that that word is offensive to many or is problematic, use a different word, avoid it completely. It cost you nothing. Absolutely, absolutely. I can completely agree. And Katie Allen: it's interesting in that we haven't. It's a choice, it's a conscious choice to use the language that we use. And again, I certainly know in having conversations with people, if you, if you talk to anyone who puts together a sales tender and you say, do you know what? If you use the word investment instead of cost, that you're more likely to get a positive outcome and people go, oh, that's. That's good, we'll do that. Absolutely. Because it's got benefit for you. So you can change your language. Absolutely. When you think it makes sense and you can see the benefit for you. So if somebody else said, actually, you know, using this word instead of that word has benefit for me, or, you know, is. Is better than something else, why can't we just accept that? Like, okay, sure, that's what you're telling me. I'll believe that. I'll believe that to be true because we have no problem believing it elsewhere. Joanne Lockwood: And. But language is so ingrained in our everyday conversations, in our, in our heads. We become very familiar with the way we speak and we, we often use the same phrases and, and, and base words often. And there's a lot of it is based on, on colonialism, racism, life is on ableism. A lot. The words we use, you know, we throw in words like, I'm a bit OCD at the moment. You know, no one's a bit ocd. It's a, it's a clinical diagnosis. I feel a bit crazy right now. All these kind of things. And we're using this word in everyday language without truly understanding how that can impact others. And that's, that's the challenge we've got to overcome, isn't it? Being open enough to reflect on our choice of language and how we can improve that? Katie Allen: Yeah, totally. And, and again that comes back to frames of reference, doesn't it? And the fact that we are all products of our environment and you know, the things that we've maybe grown up saying probably aren't the types of things that we're saying nowadays. And it's just about recognising that think language will always change, it will always evolve. Even now I get confused because we can use figuratively and literally interchangeably because literally sometimes means figuratively now. And that's okay because that's just the way it's getting used. And it's, and it's, it's just language and life evolves, right? And we get on board with it or we don't. And sometimes it's just recognising that because something comes as second nature or that's just how our brains process and how we think and the way we refer to things. Being open to hearing it when someone else says I hear that differently to you or did you know that we don't use that word anymore and for this reason and it's just about being okay with it and not being so wedded back to that being right and wrong. Isn't it like to being right that we have to go back through? Well, the dictionary definition of the use of they means multiple people and therefore it's like really, really Is that what, is that what you're going to hold on to the dictionary definition? Or how about someone has expressed to you that, you know, they want you to use a gender neutral pronoun in reference to them because that's what feels right for them. Why would we, why would we withhold that from them? Just because the dictionary has something for you. Like is that what we're going to do? But we're living Joanne Lockwood: in a world now where everything we're just talking about here we'll have people listening today and hello, thank you for listening. Who are nodding their heads and going, yeah too right. Maybe we've got people listening, going, God, this sounds like a load of woke BS to me. God, just get a life, you snowflakes. You know, start, let's get in the real world here. Just get on with stuff. Solve the first world problems. Not these, these, these issues we're facing. So why, why why should people care? I mean, and that's a Katie Allen: good question, right? Because you don't. We don't have to care as humans, I guess if your life is so beautiful and comfortable that you don't get misgendered and you don't have people using language that is utterly offensive to you or your existence, then fantastic, that's, that's great for you. Do you want to continue living in a world where it's all good for you and screw everyone else, essentially? Like, do you want that? Or do you want to be able to have conversations and communicate with people in a way that really opens up, you know, a community to you? And even if just purely for selfish reasons. Right. If you are someone who is responsible for an entire organisation, do you really want to be viewed as someone who is an immovable object, or do you want to be viewed as someone who really gets what it's like, as an employer, who really understands the people that work for you, that really understands how your clients and your customers see the world? Like, do you want to be able to engage with people in that way, or do you want to stay completely wedded to your own frame of reference and just live there and live in that bubble? It's a choice, isn't it? You can step outside, you can learn about people who are different to you because those people will be in your personal circles, they will be within your employee teams, they will be on your customers, they'll be in your supply chain. People exist all around you. Why would we not engage? You were saying just at the beginning of the podcast Joanne Lockwood: when we started talking, that the danger is, if we're not careful, is that people live in their own lived experience. So, you know, we look at the. Some serious well known influences in this world. I would. My personal opinion is that they're negative influencers, people like Andrew Tate. They live in a world, an echo chamber, where they have a belief that they're doing the right thing. They have an opinion around masculinity and femininity, that men are superior, women have their place for whatever their opinions are that I find abhorrent. But they have a belief system and they have a followers and they're not going to change, are they? And when you polarise your views in that way, it's very difficult to try and get around the table and have a conversation. So how do we start to chip away at the edges of the people who are unsure or being influenced? Yeah, and I think that for me is the. Katie Allen: The audience that I am most drawn to in the conversations that I have, because, yeah, there are. There are definitely people who are immovable objects in this world, and the likes of Andrew Tate are one of them in the sense that they believe what they believe, and it serves them to double down on that harder and harder every time, because that's their brand now. So even if someone showed them information that could change their mind, they're never going to do that because they've built a brand on what they're doing and they play on. My belief is they play into that, because when you have got, you know, the. What I believe to be the majority of people, and I guess in Andrew Tate's audience, we're probably talking young men who feel that their place in the world is being either threatened or somehow feels like it's shifting and they're not sure how. When you are part of that group and you, you know, everyone's telling you that your identity doesn't matter anymore. There's no place for you be quiet, because we're going to give voice to everybody else. And then you've got someone like Andrew Tate who's going, hey, come on over here, because I see you. I can. I can be someone that you can look up to. I mean, it's. It's, from my perspective, pretty horrifying. But I can also understand why people gravitate towards that, because it's making space. It's making space for someone to flow in, to feel seen and heard and tr. Truly, when it comes to the work of inclusion, my perspective at least, is like inclusion is everybody, and it's just not at the expense of anybody. So it's really about how are we making sure all of the people that might be feeling unwelcome, I guess, in spaces that they once were just naturally welcomed into, how do we. We maintain their presence and maintain them in the conversation so that they don't have to look to role models like the Andrew Tates of this world to feel seen and heard. How will we make. Again, back to those conversations. We need to be talking with one another, especially around, you know, masculinity, because when we talk about, you know, the. The hard kind of patriarchal systems that we're. We're living within, like, that harms men, too. Like, that's. That's not. That's not a gender thing. It's a. It's a. You know, it's harmful for everybody other than the very few people that it was designed to benefit. So we have to kind of change the narrative so we can have a conversation about patriarchy is bad for everybody practically. So how are we making sure that we are understanding what that means and rallying against that? So it's not about anti men, it's about anti the system that harms everybody, if that makes sense. Yeah, it was a great Joanne Lockwood: example and I've been watching it evolve over LinkedIn and other people talk about online on last Friday's episode of Graham Norton and there was two, two men, I, I can't remember the names of the people involved, but there were two men talking about Hollywood superstars, talking about doing some training about self defence and they were using a mobile phone as part of their self defence mechanism. And I think one man said the other man who would use their mobile phone to defend somebody off. And then the woman who was on the panel, also a Hollywood superstar, chipped in and said, well, actually this is what women have to think about all the time. Whatever object they've got to hand, it becomes a potential defence weapon. And most, most women will hold their mobile phone in a defensive way if they need to beat off an attacker. And she turned to the audience, isn't that right, ladies? And the whole audience erupted in applause and it's certainly resonating on LinkedIn because we, many people see the world through their own blinkers. They don't see from a male patriarchal perspective, they believe they're great people, they feel that they're inclusive, they don't feel that they're, they're toxic masculinity or anything like that, but they don't really see the lived experience of others. And that's, that's, we've got this gap, isn't it, this empathy bridge we've got to try and create. Yeah, absolutely, Katie Allen: absolutely. And, and I think it, I've seen that clip too and I think it, it's a brilliant demonstration almost, isn't it, that the silence of the rest of the panel are just stunned into when she says, like, actually when, when you're a woman, that's something you have to think about. And it's that moment of like, oh, oh, here we are making a joke about it, but, oh, okay. And, and that I think that's hugely important because if we aren't sharing our experiences and really understanding, you know, the world was created in a certain way, you either fit that mould or you don't fit that mould. And if you don't fit into the mould of, you know, of what success or what safety looks like, it can be really terrifying. But that's damaging for everybody. Who doesn't fit into that mould? So if you then play this out, if men are supposed to be like, well, who needs, who needs a mobile phone to defend themselves? It's like, actually, a lot of men would probably also be looking for the first thing they've got to hand as a defence. So here we are making light of, you know. Oh, yeah, guys don't need, you know, to think about weapons for defending themselves. Well, they probably do. If you're going to get attacked, you're probably not someone who's going to naturally, you know, have been trained in jiu jitsu and be able to leap into action. Like, no, you're going to want to absolutely peg it to find safety or you're, you're going to be in fight mode and you're going to do the best you can with whatever is to hand. And making joke of that is really just reinforcing that narrative, isn't it? Of, you know, yeah, we're dudes, we can have a fight. Like, can you and should you. I Joanne Lockwood: know that often what we, what we don't do is we don't think about, you know, we're talking about the other person's lived experience, the other. What the other people are going through. And we, in the EDI space, in corporate or wherever we're working, we often talk about the power of lived experience, the power of storytelling, the power of lifting to other people's experiences. And I remember when I transitioned seven or eight years ago, I started to realise I didn't have some of the lived experience that many of my female friends had. And it became apparent when I was sitting, having lunch or having a drink or having a chat with people that there was a whole load of lived experience. I was completely blinkered to as a man. And I've also realised that as a white person, I'm blinkered to the experience of black, brown, people of colour. And there was an incident of a year or so, 18 months, or whenever it was about a young, young girl who was stripped, searched by the police. She was on her period. They're searching for marijuana, believing she'd hidden it inside her. And as a white person, I was completely oblivious to this story, but every person who I knew who was black was hyper aware of this type of conversation. And it just shows that, you know, we live in our echo chamber, even though we, as an inclusion consultant, you know, I'm sure you are yourself, you're very aware of trying to keep your knowledge out there, but we listen to the news, we listen to don't we, we don't hear the communities amplifying because we're not in those communities. How do we, how do we encourage people to. I call, we're touching on here. We're talking about cultural intelligence, aren't we? How do we build up that cultural intelligence? Yeah, yeah, Katie Allen: absolutely. And it, because it's the frequencies that we tune into, isn't it? That, you know, when we, we listen and I can't remember the, the acronym or something rather, but the piece within our brain that really listens out for things like our name and things that are relevant to us that mean our interest gets piqued. And this, this is it, isn't it? It's the frequency with which we listen to things through our philtre, through, through our frame of reference. And it's about how do we broaden that? How do we have conversations with people that are different to us, to un, to ask and to understand different experiences, to you know, our echo chambers that we live in, which is, let's face it, is pretty much our social media. Are we just following people who are just like us with the same experiences as us that went to the same school that we did, you know, or how are we looking for content and information to help educate us about experiences that exist outside that? Because that's all within our control, isn't it? Because, you know, social media, it's a designed algorithm to give us more of the things that we click on and we, you know, we linger on so actively go out there and look for experiences that are different to yours to try and understand, to become tuned in because you, you soon very quickly start to notice it. I know now, like when I'm watching tv, you just. I'm a huge fan of things like Love is Blind and Married at First Sight. Like they're my absolute guilty pleasure. I love them. But actually I think it was in the Married at Fireside Australia. You see over the seasons the absolute misogyny that exists within a lot of the goings on. And it doesn't get called out in the early seasons, it's just the way that people treat each other. And it's now in the more recent seasons, you know, the so called, the experts that sit on the sofa and help guide these young couples that are going through or you know, whatever age couple that are going through their relationships, they actually will now stop conversations and call people out to say, actually do you understand how this, you know, how you're speaking to your partner, partner and they really highlight it and make people face into the discomfort of these conversations because media is becoming savvy to understand, actually we have to see more of this. And, and we, you know, it's, it's becoming more available and open to us in the things that we consume in our social media, within the TV programmes that we watch. You know, I'm a huge fan of things like Heart Stopper. That's a new season of Heartstopper that's just come out on Netflix, which is. I, I wish there had been TV programmes like that out when I was growing up at school, because it is the most non dramatic and beautiful high school drama TV programme that you're ever going to get. And it follows a group of LGBTQIA teens through their education. And it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. It's a gorgeous representation. And I'm going to use the term queer love, because as an LGBTQIA plus person myself, I'm okay with that term. But I also understand there might be people listening who are not ok, okay. Or comfortable with the term queer. So I would like to acknowledge that it's not about you. It's a term I'm using for myself. And I love, and I love seeing that played out. Just, you know, the beauty of LGBTQIA plus kids and their experiences. And in this most recent series, they have a character in there that really resonates with me because they're developing an asexual character. So for me to see that played back out on screen again, I just wish that had been something I could have seen growing up because it would have made me get to my own realisations a hell of a lot sooner than I currently did. But again, it's all about frame of reference, right? Because we didn't talk about those things when I was at school. You know, it was all. Being gay was an absolute slur. So it just. You just didn't have that conversation. How are we having more conversations with each other? How are we challenging our perspectives? You know, I could go on. I mean, for me, TV is a big, A big thing. I'm again a fan of Grey's Anatomy and I remember several years ago, the scene where Miranda Bailey sits her son Tucker down. And Miranda Bailey is a. Is a black surgeon and her son, therefore, is a black child. And she, she sits him down and has to have the conversation about if you get stopped by the police, this is what you have to do. And she is very explicit around, this is how you have to behave, this is how you have to move slowly. This is what you have to Say you need to be polite, do not run away. And this whole list of things and it really dawned on me as, like, I don't have children myself, but I don't recall any of my friends having to have that conversation with their children because they're all white. So I was like, okay, that's not even something you would think you would have to do. And yet, you know, as you were saying, I speak to my black friends, they're like, yep, like, absolutely. This is, this is not, this is not a surprise that this, that this would, would feature in a TV programme. And how are we engaging in things that really make us. I actually want to use the term awake, so make us woke in its true sense of the word to what is happening in the lives of other people. Yeah, I feel like I've gone on a bit there, so please come. No, no. As you're talking there about the. You Joanne Lockwood: say a lot of our information, our feed is from social media. We tend to be our affinity bias, our people who are part of our same social groups, etc, we make it worse because when we start seeing people who have different views, we either get angry with them or we block them or unfollow them or mute or whatever we're going to do or start a post in war on their feet going, you're wrong. So we end up polarising ourselves even more and building our armies, don't we? Me and my mates are going to come and take you and your mates on for your belief. Social media promotes that, that, that petrol on the fire experience, doesn't it? It Katie Allen: absolutely can do. And also it can be a force for good as well. I think it just depends on how you consume it and how you engage. And again, you know, there are people that I'm not going to engage with on social media. You know, I'm perfectly happy. I'm a bit Marmite for people. Some people really dislike my content. That's okay, they don't have to follow. That's what the unfollow button is for. Right. You don't need me in your feed. No worries. Don't look. If you come in my comments abusing the people that do like my content, I will, I will block you. That's like, you know, no problem. However, there are also people who I know that lurk a bit and are a bit curious because they see what I post and they're like, oh, I don't understand that and I'd like to have a conversation with you without getting blocked. And that's what I'M absolutely here for because that is those moments where we, we have the opportunity to learn where we can engage with people to get different perspect perspectives. So I'm, you know, I'm never interested in the Donald Trumps of this world. And you know, for example, everything that's, that's going on with the pre election stuff is for me personally, pretty horrifying and divisive and intentionally so. However, there are going to be people that might hear what's coming out of that camp and think, okay, I can see how that makes sense. But they're still left with some questions and they're the people that I want to have conversations with because I want to know what is it that resonates with you? What is it about your experiences and your worldview that is leading you down a path where you can, you can see merit in some of this content? Because for me, it's about, I want to understand you. I want to understand how you've arrived, where you've arrived at, what are your experiences that are shaping that and really listen and then engage in a dialogue. Again, we're talking, not telling, right? And then engage in this conversation. And okay, and this is how I see the world and this is how I feel when you share those views. And here is something that to me, you know, is at odds with what you're thinking and how can we have a conversation about that and not coming at it from a place of I want to change your opinion. It's just I want to offer you a different viewpoint and see how that feels to you and see what you might want to take away from that. And for me, that again, that's one of the most powerful opportunities, I guess, that are available when we, you know, we have people who are professional speakers and a lot of people speak about their lived experience and I think that's hugely powerful because when someone has taken time to craft their story and their experiences and they're willing to share it with you and deliver it with you, you can learn a lot from that. And you, you don't have to engage, you don't have to ask questions. You can just listen, listen to somebody else's experience and think, okay, that's different to mine. What, what does that make me feel now? Like, has that challenged any of my beliefs? And, and sit. You know, for me, I treat everything as data. So emotions are data. So when I'm feeling completely jarred by something or if I, if I feel myself getting defensive like that, that feeling in your stomach when you're like, oh, I don't like this. For me, that's data. I'm like, okay, why am I responding that way? What within me and my value system is being challenged and, and I try and sit with it before I respond as well, just to think, okay, that's interesting. I think I'm feeling a bit, feeling a bit emotional, feeling a bit sick, feeling like I might want to punch this person. Okay, what's going on for me, you know, never gonna do that. But sometimes I get the feeling of like, oh, not, not a fan of yours. But I sit with, I sit with the discomfort and think, okay, what specifically is it? Which of my values are being challenged? Which of my, my beliefs are being challenged and is that fair? You know, am I not listening to them? Because I've immediately made a judgement because of these, you know, these physical feelings and emotions that happening to me and how am I going to make some space to actually listen to what they're saying so that I can make an informed decision? Because that decision might also be, no, you're not my cup of tea. I think, I think I'll pass. And, and that's okay because I'm, I'm, you know, there are, there are hills that I will not die on. But also, you know, I, I like to understand that have I really listened to this person? And if I have, and I can, especially in one to one conversations, if I demonstrate and role model that listening, I kind of feel obliged to listen to me. Then when I decide I want to start wanging on about how I feel about things. And I know that if I can just plant a few seeds of thought with people, they in my experience, do take it away. And I've had people come back to me, you know, weeks after conversations and said I was thinking about that thing and actually I then had a conversation with. And they speak to other people and get other opinions and you see a shift and I think, I'll take that, that's good enough for me, that that's improved a conversation for someone else somewhere down the line. Yeah, I often respond to people with, I don't owe you an Joanne Lockwood: argument. I saw a great analogy. So I think this one posted on LinkedIn, I can't remember who it was now, but they described it as, you turn up at my doorstep with your muddy boots on and you walk through my living room stomping your mud throughout my house and you expect me to be happy with that? Yeah, if you want to have a conversation, take your boots off and sit on my sofa and we'll have a cup of coffee and talk about it. But don't try and stamp your views all over me and expect me to be. To want it. So it's got to be a kind of respect. And a few times I'll just say to people, I don't owe you an argument. I'm not trying to justify who I am. I'm not trying to get into a debate about fundamentals here. We're polar opposite on these views and beliefs. I'm happy to have a conversation about why you think something, but not what. I don't talk about what you think, just why. Tell me why. What scares you, what you're worried about, what's the thing that keeps us apart on this? And it's trying to find that common shared vision and common shared values that maybe we. Maybe we turn left or turn right at the end of the road. But fundamentally, we're both human and we want the same things. Happy life. Katie Allen: Absolutely. And as a build on that as well, I think that for me, is there one of the most powerful roles that people can play as allies. And I mean, like true allies. Not the kind of. Like, I went on an allyship training course once, and I know some words to say, like real allyship, where people are willing to step up or step back in that. I know that, you know, I'm, you know, for, for those that are listening, like, I'm, you know, I'm a generally smiley white woman. Right. I'm. I'm pretty well accepted in most spaces and, And I use that to my advantage. I'm not going to hide from that. Like, I can. I can have conversations with people that other people perhaps can't, because I'm pretty much. What's the word? Kind of unassuming. I'm a little bit disarming and, and people threatening. Yeah, I get it. People say things to me that are a bit more honest about how they feel that they won't say to some of my other associates who do the same work that I do because they don't want to offend them. But for me, for some reason, you know, people open up pretty quickly, and I'm okay with that. Because you can say something offensive, I probably won't be offended. It doesn't make it any less offensive. And I will help you unpack it. But that's okay. I'm totally all right for you to get that out at me and then we can have a conversation. And I see that as my role as an ally in the sense of I want to Help have those conversations with people when those conversations don't cause harm to kind of the groups that would be affected if it was them having to then I guess, like you were saying, argue for your own identity. Like, no one should have to do that. So I'm perfectly happy to have all of the conversations about, you know, anti racism and trans awareness because I'm like, I, I want to be able to not speak on behalf of, but stand up for my friends in those communities who experience the harm because it doesn't personally impact me. So I can take that heat. And, and I think the more we have conversations about different experiences, the more that, and especially for people who are in leadership positions like, you have a responsibility to be an ally to people like that is that is your job as someone who is looked up to as a role model within a business, like, absolutely. And with. And within your families and your communities, like you, we have a responsibility as role models. But that does involve doing that uncomfortable work of. We have to understand this stuff to begin with. We can't just sort of, I, you know, I've, I've got a few sentences I'll chop out, I'll trot out, and then if somebody challenges me on them, I'm a bit lost after that. It's like, no, you have to understand where you're coming from and what your viewpoint is and where you stand so that you can stand there. You, you mentioned earlier, and you hinted on it just Joanne Lockwood: now around queer community. You see yourself as part of that. And you, you talked about how recognising the fact that some people find the word queer triggering, pejorative or brings back uncomfortable memories of past oppression or violence, discrimination, whatever it may be. I often frame it as the difference between an identity and a label. So I, I am versus you are. So I am queer in my outlook and my Persona and my characteristics, but I'm not a. You are queer. Don't call me queer, but I'm happy to be it. I think when we think about the difference between identities and labels, don't label me, don't stereotype me, don't put me in a box with the queer on the outside. I'm in. I'm happy to stand with my friends and we are queer together, and that's, that's our power. But don't label me and weaponize it. And I think that's, that's the key there, isn't it? Yeah, Katie Allen: absolutely. And, and also I think, and this is where the language piece gets tricky again, isn't it? That not all words work for all people and we have to be all right with that. There is no hard and fast rule that, again, getting rid of the good and bad label. Just like if somebody would. Like, if someone is speaking about me and they want to make reference to me and they make reference to me as queer, I'm fine with it. I would absolutely say that unless you've had express permission from anybody else, don't do it. Like, if you're not talking about yourself and you. You haven't had it expressly, expressly made clear that it's okay. Just avoid any language that could be loaded in that way. For me, that's it. Because, you know, you may get it right, you might not. So let's err on the side of you probably won't, and choose something else and learn to say lgbtqia. There is about as many characters as a number plate, so you can probably get it right with enough practise and say out loud a few times, you'll get there. Which is why I tend Joanne Lockwood: to prefer the word queer, because I think it's more inclusive. Whereas if you start alphabetizing everything, you always end up missing somebody out. And I think rather than having the QAA + *, whatever it may be. Yeah, Katie Allen: yeah. Sometimes I just think queer is a more inclusive term because it doesn't. Joanne Lockwood: Anybody who wants to fit into that label, they self identify. Yeah, Katie Allen: absolutely. But then, you know, for some people, it's. I also have friends within the community who. It really. It really does. It really does make them feel a certain type of way. So I also know, well, I won't even use that word about myself in their presence because I know how they feel. And again, you know, it's not that. It's not that hard to say lgbtqia, but if you only get as far as lgbt, like, you can definitely remember that. Like, it's like HSBC or what, like, whatever. You know, you can. You can definitely. You can definitely remember lgbt. If that's as far as you get. We all know what you mean, so that's okay. If you can get further, if you get all the way to QIA plus, then someone like me who is in the A plus category, not just my grades at school, then I feel seen. So as much as I agree with you in. In the sense of, actually, if we can use the word queer in a community sense, it just mean everybody, and that's grand. But actually, there is something to be said about the specificity, because I know if anybody gets as far as Saying A plus, I'm safe because they've done the work. And for me that's a big signal. And it's small. It's really small, but it's a huge signal. But they know what Joanne Lockwood: the A stands for. They're just trotting it off. Is it allies? Asexual. Yeah. And it does mean asexual. Katie Allen: And if you don't know what that is, go and do some work on it because it's very important. So you've given me a segue there Joanne Lockwood: to ask you about your asexuality. As, as you said earlier, you're a, a white woman. You appear to be blonde at the moment. I guess that's your. Yeah, you've got a fair complexion, a big smile. So you are kind of girl next door passing, aren't you? Yeah, totally. Oh, Katie Allen: 100. And to muddy the waters of people's expectations, I'm also in a relationship with a, a straight man. So, you know, on, on the face of it, there's nothing to see here, which I always find really funny because that I, I get. People make comments to me like, well, hang on, asexual. But haven't you've got a boyfriend, haven't you? I'm like, yeah, I know. Funny how that works because it's so for me and, and even within the queer community, it's such a misunderstood sexual orientation. And it is an orientation and to be clear, it's. It's around the absence or the kind of. I don't want to say I hate the word lack, but it's around. I don't experience sexual attraction in the way that most other people would, would describe their experience. So I, I've never really understood what getting horny meant. Like, I thought it was a thing. I, I now know, having spoken to lots of my friends about it, I don't get horny. It's not a thing. That's okay, right? But it's just the assumption is that everybody, and certainly within the media as well, this is a big thing. Like, it's just that. But everybody, everybody does that. Everybody experiences sexual attraction. It's just who you're attracted to that changes. And that's not true because I don't experience sexual attraction. Now, in addition to that, I'm not aromantic, which is if I was aromantic, I would also be someone that doesn't experience romantic attraction. What I am is pan romantic, which means my romantic attraction is not bound by gender. So it doesn't matter to me the gender of a person. I can be romantically attracted to, that's fine. But it's, it's based very much more around emotional, intellectual attractions. That's what, that's my thing. But I'm still not gonna. Well, I don't want to be too crude about it, but I'm still not going to experience sexual attraction. I'm just, I'm Joanne Lockwood: going to dive into this conversation a bit further if you don't mind. Yeah. So for clarity and it's nice to have the opportunity to sit with a self declared asexual person and ask them this question on a podcast. So it doesn't mean to say that you're, you don't enjoy sex, it just means that you don't experience horniness or attraction physically to somebody who you meet in passing. But you, you still have an active sex life. Yeah, exactly, exactly Katie Allen: that. So there is again, there's a difference between sexual attraction and pleasure and there's a difference between pleasure and libido. So all of these things are different things. And this is, again, this is something I find really fascinating because as an asexual person I've done the work in understanding how my brain and my body work and where they work in tandem and where they work in, in opposition. However, what I have realised is people who are allosexual, which is the opposite of asexual. So people who do experience sexual attraction tend to not go any further than that. It's just a case of I fancy you, will you be my partner? You know, maybe it takes you a few dates to get to the deed, but then it all, it all hinges around the importance of like sexual compatibility. Because if you don't have that, you're friend zoned. And I'm like, is that, is that really the be all and end all of your relationship? I don't think it is. I think there's so many multiple layers that tend to be considered as secondary, whereas in my relationships they are certainly more at the forefront. Because I'm not, I'm not driven by the, the sexual desire side. I'm more about like, how funny are you? How smart are you? Joanne Lockwood: Like, you know, I do the soul mate stuff. Yeah. Because I want to spend my time with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm investing in you. Katie Allen: Yeah, yeah. Which is it? And also, you know, having, having spent the last, well, I don't know, all of the years that I've been sexually active. Like, I also understand objectively, for me it's something that is pleasurable. I also know asexual people who have absolutely Zero interest in it. It don't find it sex pleasurable at all. That's okay too, because some people can be sex positive and some people can be sex repulsed. Like, it's all totally okay. But you, I think you explain that by saying Joanne Lockwood: that your sexuality and your, how you interact and attract to people is, is a different than your libido. Yeah, absolutely. And as a build on that as Katie Allen: well. You know, even if you are a straight person, if you are. If I was a straight woman, I wouldn't be attracted to every, every man. Like, you know, there are just different things about different people that make someone attractive and, and we all have that. It, you know, it's just for me, I notice them differently. Does it cause your Joanne Lockwood: partners any confusion? Do you have to explain it to them in the same sort of way you explain it to me? Yes, is the honest answer. Katie Allen: I had to have my most recent partner. We had to, we had to have the chat, which is, I recognise that you're a cisgender straight man. And luckily he's fairly well versed in some of these topics because he was a follower of mine on LinkedIn to begin with. Sounds good, but. So he knew I was ace coming into the, into the conversation and I had to kind of have the, the explanation of, in being in a relationship with me, we will be in a queer relationship. So you're still a straight cisgender man. Like, nothing about you changes, but the nature of our relationship is a queer relationship. And how do you feel about that? And that was a big conversation and luckily we ended up, you know, we're a year down the line now. We ended up in a place where that all was okay, but for me it was very important to understand that because, you know, again, if I was a bisexual person, just because I'm in a relationship with a straight man doesn't now mean I'm straight. I would still be bisexual. It just happens to be that I'm in the relationship with a specific person. And so this, it's the same for being ASOL or any other orientation. So if you were listening, Ace. Joanne Lockwood: Ace is the kind of accepted abbreviation for asexual. Ace or asexual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've. It's interesting that my own relationship with my wife Marie here, obviously we got married 1987. That's a while ago. 37, a bit years ago. And to all intents and purposes, and in fact to ourselves, we were a straight couple. A man marrying a woman. And then the rules changed about 10 years ago and now There's a trans woman married to a CIS woman. And Marie had to reinvent her own sense of self and maybe it helped unlock some of her deeper thoughts around her own sexuality. And she now describes herself as bisexual, which makes go to the cinema and watching TV quite interesting because we're, we're both trying to work out which one's fancying which one. You know, it doesn't matter if it's a man or, you know, the rocker's got his shirt off. Bradley Cooper's yeah, looking great today, or whether it's Lady Gaga performing or something. So we almost look at each other. I know what you're looking at. No, I know what you're looking at. It's like we could, we can share more of a spectrum. So I would describe myself as, as pan. Probably. Probably more pan romantic than anything. You know, I, I'm happy to, but I'm more asexual when it comes to other things. So, yeah, I'm not necessarily sexually attractive, but I'm sexual curious, if you like. I, I appreciate looking at people, but not in a, a desire way, but in a kind of appreciation way. So it's like the Katie Allen: aesthetic attraction because that's also a layer of attraction. That kind of. Yeah, aesthetic attraction and asexuality is, is. It exists on multiple planes because there'll be people who would. Who fall under the asexual banner who would be demisexual. So it's like they may not experience sexual attraction generally, but once they have a deep emotional bond with someone, that is something that becomes present for them. And the opposite is also true. There are people who do experience sexual attraction up until the point that a deep emotional bond might be forming and then they're out. It's not, it's not a thing for them anymore. So it, it exists in all of its multiple planes. This is also woke, isn't it? I know it's amazing, but one of my curious things is like. And maybe I'm overstepping, but don't you think that your relationship. Because when you get. I find when you get into these nitty gritty conversations with the people that you're in a relationship with, like, it all comes out right. You talk all kinds of stuff. And I find that that level of communication in a relationship just makes the relationship better. Once you've really got into the weeds of all of this stuff, like you can talk about everything. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I would say that one of the things I found most liberating around my gender transition is that I no longer have any Secrets. There are no fundamental secrets in my life. You cannot blackmail me anymore. Because I'm not saying radical candour, but it's kind of. I, I don't have to hide anything. I've told the biggest secret in my life. I've, I've, I've exposed that. And you're right. When I have conversations with my wife, I'm not hiding anything. I'm not, you know, she knows who I am. We're not trying to hide anything. And she knows who we are. And you, we, we have some really good fun. BELLY LAUGHS Often because we truly are connected at that sort of cerebral level. Yeah. Yeah, okay. We've married 37 years, but I genuinely feel that we're, we're closer now than we've ever been at that intellectual level, but as soulmates, as true life partners that have had two children together and spend our lives together and want to spend the rest of our lives together. So, yeah, you're right, it is a lot more deep. I'm not trying to pretend or hide something. I'm not living a life where I wish I had something different. I'm living the life I love. I think that that comes from being openly honest and be able to talk about anything. Absolutely. And again, it's coming Katie Allen: back to talking, isn't it? If we, if all spaces were spaces where we could have conversations like this, where we could just honestly be ourselves. I mean, I hate the word authenticity, but there is no better word than it. If we could just be who we each are without the pressures of society, without the judgement of others, we just get to be like. I feel like that would be. That's. That's the kind of beautiful world that I want to live in and that's why I do the work that I do. I noticed, I was just Joanne Lockwood: reading the show notes as you're talking there, and one of the things you put in there was you want to reach more people with your message of curiosity, of accortion and I. E. In quotes. Screw perfectionism. Let's just talk. Yeah. So, yeah, nobody has to be perfect, do they? There's no such Katie Allen: thing. There is no such thing as perfect. Because in whose eyes? By whose standards? Like, it's all, like. We're all just messy, imperfect, complicated, complex beings. Like, let's just, let's just be. We're throwing away billions of tonnes of food every day because the Joanne Lockwood: apple isn't quite round, the banana's too straight, it's got a slight knuckle bruise on it. Yeah, we should be embracing Ugly fruit imperfection in each other and in what we eat. 100% love the metaphor, Katie. It's been absolutely fascinating. I said to you before we went live that I would say at around this time that how much I do enjoy the conversation. And it sounds a bit inauthentic when you say it up front, but yeah, honestly, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and it's been a lovely opportunity to get to know you better. And I'd always wanted to ask you about your asexuality. So it's going to help you to pry. Katie Allen: We can have. We can continue it as well after. Yes, we can continue Joanne Lockwood: after. And you're going to invite me onto your podcast, so I'm looking forward to that. And then you could put the spotlight in my eyes and say, come on, Joe, tell me about who you are. I look forward to that. But yeah. So, Katie, how do people get a hold of you? I'm sure there are loads of people out there listening who want to find out more. Yes. So I am Most Katie Allen: active on LinkedIn, so you can search me on. There is Katie Allen or Katie Allen consulting. You'll find me under both. I am. I do have brown hair, so I need to update that image, but you can't miss me. I've got a big orange circle. I'm also have my website, KatieAllenconsulting.com and yeah, I'm. I mean, I. I'm a talker, as everybody will know. So if anybody wants a conversation, please feel free to slide into my DMs. I'm always happy to have a chat because I. That's how I think we make the world better. Respectfully, slide into your Joanne Lockwood: DMs. Always sounds a bit smutty. That doesn't slide into my dm. Sliding. It's all Katie Allen: good. We both know I'm not attracted to anyone, so it's fine. Yeah. So Joanne Lockwood: no point sending dick pics, is there? No. No. Really? Yeah. If Katie Allen: any. They're not doing anyone anything for anyone. It's definitely not me. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Katie, thank you so much. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bytes and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.