---
title: "The Power Of Persistence"
episode: 136
date: 2024-11-29
guest: "Sheena Yap Chan"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/136-the-power-of-persistence
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-136/audio.mp3
---

# The Power Of Persistence

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Sheena Yap Chan to explore what persistence really looks like behind the scenes—moving past the myth of overnight success and continuing to take action through rejection, setbacks, and self-doubt. Sheena shares how confidence can be rebuilt by understanding the root causes of fear and limiting beliefs, including childhood experiences, trauma, and cultural expectations. The conversation examines how social media comparison and perfectionism can damage self-worth, why vulnerability and authenticity matter, and how support—through communities, mentoring, and professional help—can accelerate growth. They also discuss broader systemic pressures, including gender double standards at work, barriers to funding and leadership, and the importance of allies in shifting norms. Throughout, the focus stays on practical mindset shifts, staying connected to purpose, and persisting long enough for personal growth to translate into professional impact.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 02:00 — Overnight success requires persistence through challenges.
- 03:48 — Persist, align, question path, move forward intuition.
- 08:38 — Famous personas mask underlying mental health struggles.
- 11:53 — Acknowledge trauma to stop generational cycle.
- 16:52 — Struggled, embraced identity, created platform for representation.
- 20:14 — Persistence over preparation leads to success.
- 22:50 — Past abandonment trauma causes her current anxiety.
- 26:11 — Failed kindergarten; later realised unique perspective valued.
- 28:16 — Uniqueness is vital; fear of making mistakes.
- 34:11 — Gender funding gap persists despite women's capabilities.
- 35:38 — Addressing gender inequality and societal perceptions' impact.
- 39:47 — Women finding empowerment after family commitments.
- 41:45 — Economic pressures impact family planning and careers.
- 47:34 — Men wear tuxedos; women face beauty competition.
- 48:35 — Address unresolved trauma to transform self-confidence.
- 51:52 — Others can help identify your values.
- 55:09 — Joanne Lockwood promises more enriching narratives.

## Key takeaways

- The myth of overnight success and the reality of the hard work behind true achievement.
- How aligning your goals with personal values can create fulfilment and resilience.
- The influence of social media on self-perception and the importance of authenticity online.
- Learning from mistakes as a pivotal part of the journey to success, rather than fearing them.
- Addressing the global gender confidence gap and the societal challenges women face in professional settings.
- The crucial role of male allies and the need for equal representation in leadership and business funding.
- Enhancing personal growth through support networks, persistence, and understanding one's core values.

## FAQs

### Who hosts the Inclusion Bites podcast?

The Inclusion Bites podcast is hosted by Joanne Lockwood, who delves into transformative conversations about inclusive cultures and nurturing belonging.

### Can you tell me more about the guest of this episode?

This episode features Sheena Yap Chan, a keynote speaker and author renowned for her work on leadership and confidence, particularly focusing on the power of persistence.

### What is the main theme discussed in this episode?

The central theme is the power of persistence in achieving success, underscoring that what may appear as 'overnight success' is often the result of relentless hard work and overcoming numerous challenges.

### How does Sheena Yap Chan relate to the theme of persistence?

Sheena shares personal stories, such as drawing inspiration from her great grandfather’s persistence, and underscores that mistakes and setbacks are valuable for learning and long-term success.

### What does the podcast say about social media impacts?

The discussion covers the misleading nature of curated social media images, emphasising the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in sharing real, relatable experiences.

### Are there any notable examples of persistence mentioned in this episode?

Yes, the journey of singer Lizzo and the life choices of actress Keke Palmer are highlighted as powerful examples of how persistence and living authentically can lead to success.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs, but thrives, you're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood atcchangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.

Sheena Yap Chan: And today is episode 136 with the title, The Power of Persistence. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sheena Yap Chan. Sheena is a keynote speaker and Wall Street Journal best selling author on leadership and confidence. When I asked Sheena to describe her superpower, she said, her superpower is being persistent in her mission. That has helped her push through so many challenges in her life. Hello, Sheena. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joan. Thank you so much for having me here. Hope you're having a fantastic day. I am. And, from what we're saying just now, you're in on the East Coast of Canada, just north of, of New York. Lovely part of the world. Dusheana, tell me more. The power of persistence. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people don't realize, you know, in order to make things happen, you know, nothing happens overnight. Even though we see people who have so called overnight success, They don't realize behind the story they've been putting in the work day in and day out. You know, sometimes it could take years before they can see, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel. And when it comes to forging your own path, you know, we're gonna go through obstacles. We're gonna go through challenges and roadblocks, but it's how we move forward that matters the most. Right? I mean, I think the pandemic has been a great example of us persevering through one of the wildest times in in history, you know, being stuck at home, not knowing what was gonna happen, not knowing if we're gonna see the light of day, but we persisted. Right? We made it we made things work. We learned how to pivot, you know, at every given moment during the pandemic, and so it's just always moving forward. Right? And I think that power of persistence really came from my great grandfather when he started his business, and one of his values is persistence. Right? You don't give up. We get better. We learn from our mistakes because we're always gonna make mistakes in our journey, and it's not a bad thing because sometimes our mistakes can be our greatest opportunities. I know it's weird to say that because when you go to school, when you make a mistake, you get punished for it. Right? Not realizing in the real world, sometimes those mistakes is how we can solve problems, create new businesses, create new opportunities for other people around the world. So for me, yeah, I just realized it's like sometimes life is tough, and it's okay to feel our feelings. But we also have to learn to pick ourselves back up and keep moving forward if what we're doing is something that we're super passionate about, if it's in alignment with our values. Right? Of course, it's I think it's okay to quit things that doesn't align with you because we grow. We evolve as human beings. And so that's why we always have to look back and ask the right questions and say, is this the the path I'm supposed to be in, or is this the the purpose I'm supposed to be? If not, what is it? And so and we we will know because as human beings, you know, intuition is huge. And so, you know, it'll lead us to that moment even if it doesn't look like it. So, yeah, to me, persistence is just, you know, moving forward, always moving forward. Like, if you see people in the media, people of influence, celebrities, you know, they've all had to persist their way through to get to where they are. Right? I remember Lizzo talking about how she got started. I mean, she she performed at so many places, sometimes with for no money, sometimes for just beer, but she realized she had to put in the work day in and day out to get to where she is today. And I think it's really refreshing to hear that, especially in the world of social media where everything seems to be perfectly curated, not knowing the struggles people had to go through. And so if people just, I guess, are more transparent and vulnerable about the things that they do, it just makes it real more relatable and realize we're all not alone. We're in this together. We go through similar things, and it's just part of the journey. So that's a little bit about the power of persistence. Yeah. I think you touched on a few things there which which really resonated with me. The, that we talked about influencers, social media, and social media, most of it, I'm not saying it's a lie, but it's over inflating someone's sense of self and and their ego, whatever it may be, because you, when you're trying to create a personal brand, you're trying to sell the best of you on you or the or the your potential to get people to be attracted to you, whatever it may be. As you say, if you're just starting out or you you lack a bit of confidence, seeing everybody with their stuff together, it can be quite daunting, can't it? Oh, yeah. And I I and, you know, it's it's so easy to compare ourselves to other people with perfectly curated photos, but I've also seen a lot of people on on social media who've learned to be vulnerable, who've learned to share their mess to the world. And it's actually refreshing to see that because more people are inclined to listening to them versus the people with the perfectly curated photos because to them, it doesn't makes it's not real life to them. Right? They can't relate to that. But if they see somebody sharing, you know, I got rejected 20 times today, it's like, oh, okay. So she's not the only one who gets rejected? This is great knowing that even though she's successful, she still goes through these things. She goes through imposter syndrome, self doubt, anxiety, you know, mom guilt, mom shame. Being able to share those, it's just it's just really refreshing versus, like, here's my perfect vacation in this perfect island with my perfect you know, it's it's just unattainable. And, you know, when we keep showing up in those, like, surface level photos, you know, that's when we start having, you know, mental health issues, feeling we're not good enough, feeling like we need to keep up with everybody, keep up with the Joneses. I mean, there's so many stories where you hear, like, people of influence or influencers who've, you know, spent way beyond their means and then are really bankrupt even though they're still showcasing that they're living this so called life versus just learning to live within or beyond their means. Right? Because not everyone can do that. Like, it doesn't it's it's not realistic, unfortunately. And we've I've seen it time and time again. You know, I I've seen so many stories and hear so many stories. In fact, I was on Facebook, and I saw a post about Keke Palmer, and she mentions that she lives beyond her means, like, low way below her means, I mean. Like, she only she still drives a Toyota. Right? And she's she's a phenomenal actress, very, very successful. She started her career at 8. But because she started her career at 8 and went bankrupt at 18, she realized that she had to do things differently. Right? So instead of, you know, trying to live lavishly, she lives beyond below her means. She focuses on her many businesses and her careers. And, of course, now that she has a child, she also focuses on her child. So it's really nice to see that versus, like, seeing everybody in private jets and and fancy cars, not realizing that might not even be theirs. It could be rented or, you know, it could be taken away because people are just trying to showcase this, like, perfect life or trying to keep up with the Joneses, and it gets exhausting. So Yeah. I'm just as you're talking now, I'm thinking, you know, we're we're recording this at the end of October in 2024, and, there was a, well, famous singer in the UK, Liam Payne, former One Direction member, who jumped off a balcony or what, I'm not sure the exact circumstances are known, but he obviously lived a very troubled life despite the appearance of having everything, super connected, influential people, you look at all the people paying tributes who come out and say there is is a great friend, clearly a battle with alcoholism and drugs and other and other things that was going on in his life. And then we look at people like Robin Williams, you know, you think that that he had his stuff together, Gregarious, outgoing actor, had had it all there, under the covers mental health, Heath Ledger. So we we look at these people and their on screen persona or their stage persona, and that often masks the true pain that people have, but we're aspiring to the on screen persona, not understanding, you know, those that frantic paddling under the water that's going on, trying to hold their life together that people go through. Yeah. I mean, it we never know, right, until, unfortunately, things like these happen and, you know, mental health can look different for everybody. Just because someone's smiling on a photo doesn't mean they're they're happy. And then I'm I'm not saying everyone's like that. Of course, there's people out there who are genuinely happy, but we also have to realize there's people out there who may seem like they're happy, but, really, they're dying on the inside, and they have no outlet to turn to. Right? And, you know, trauma is huge. Right? Trauma is something that we never talk about, but it's needed to talk about. You know? Every time someone asks me, well, how do I build confidence? And I'm like, well, before we ask that question, what is really stopping you from building confidence? Like, is there a moment in your life where you were traumatized that really stopped you from moving forward? You know, it's really important to get to the root cause of why you're feeling the way you're feeling. It could be childhood trauma. It could be PTSD. It could not even just be your own trauma. It could be the trauma of your parents, grandparents because intergenerational trauma is very prevalent. And then we also have culture and gender. So, you know, there's so many different factors that we have to learn to to work through that root cause first before we can even think of, well, how can I build confidence? Because I can show you a million ways to build confidence, but, you know, if you're not there, if you're still working through a lot of trauma, it's not it's not gonna be beneficial. You know, I'd rather you figure out what that root cause is. And if you're not aware, start asking the right questions, start talking to the right people, you know, start researching. Because, of course, as humans, we can always sense something is wrong. Right? We can feel different things or see different signs from the universe, and then then we start to question things. Right? And then when we start to question things, we get curious and start trying to find the answers. And so, you know, mental health is really important. You know, it's taboo in most cultures, especially in my culture. It's something that we never talk about because it's considered not real. If we talk about it, you know, we're deemed as crazy. Right? Even though it's just part of maintaining your mental well-being. If we don't talk about it, it it it's seen as we've never it never existed. But, of course, it existed. It happened. And for so long, like, we've done the same thing over and over again, just transferring the trauma to the next generation, to the next generation, to the next generation without someone breaking that cycle, without someone saying, wait a second. You know? Why is it we're constantly feeling the same feelings or similar feelings in every generation? Maybe we need to dig a little bit deeper and find a, you know, a way to heal from it so that we don't pass it on to the next generation. And it's it's unfortunate that we'd had to go through all this, but at the same time, you know, we're aware of it now so that we can tell others, like, listen. You're not the only one who's going through mental health issues. You're not the only one who's going through pain and trauma. A lot of people are and aren't too sure what to do with it or not too sure what they can do to heal from it. Right? And everyone has different stories, different different experiences. So everyone's gonna find different ways to heal from it, of course. Right? Like, what may work for me might not work for you and vice versa because we're 2 totally different people. And so it's important to learn to find ways that would help you versus trying to follow everybody else. Especially in Asian color culture, we've always been told to live one way of life, never rock the boat because that's always been the formula for success for centuries. And so just imagine how much trauma has been transferred and how much we have to unlearn to create a new normal to make, you know, our lives better and our next generation better. So it's a whole cycle, unfortunately. So you mentioned specifically around your culture. Do you wanna just explain a bit background about how you think maybe define what your culture is and how how that has the impact on on people's well-being and mental health? Yeah. I grew up in in Asian in a very conservative Asian culture. You know, I was Chinese and Filipino culture and, you know, especially as women, we've been told different things, you know, especially, like, you have to go to school, get a job, never get married, never I mean, go to school, get a job, get married, never rock the boat, you know, never put yourself out there, you know, just keep yourself in the background, never make any noise. And because of that, we have so much repressed feelings. We feel like we're not allowed to share what we feel. We're not allowed to share any issues that we're going through. We're just told to just keep it to ourselves, and that really hurts us because that's when we start having confidence issues, mental health issues. And if we don't have an outlet to let it out, it's gonna it's gonna kill, like, kill us on the inside, unfortunately. And I've seen that time and time again with, you know, people who are older than me, the older generation. You know, you see this, like, I guess, this look of, like, you know, they're they're something's troubling them, but they're they'll never share anything because this they've been taught to just never share anything, to just let everything just take everything in, don't let anything out. And then in Asian culture, especially for women, we've been told to be the perfect daughter, the wife, the mother, the sister, etcetera. Like, we always had to be perfect. And for me, perfection doesn't exist because we're all human. We're gonna make mistakes. There's no such thing. But, yeah, we're always trying to chase this unattainable thing that doesn't make sense, and then we go through so much to be this perfect person when there's when when it's not even real. So just a lot of, like, cultural traditions and ways of living that really stops us from moving forward. And because of that, we go through so many issues. I mean, one of the things we go through too is the negative stereotypes. You know? Asian women are always seen as quiet, submissive, and obedient, and, you know, most people think that's a good thing. It's not. Right? Because then, you know, we're prone to so many things. We're getting taken advantage of, and there's sexual violence and child marriages and human trafficking. And this is hard stuff that people don't talk about but still exist today, unfortunately. And so it's important for me to show up to be to be able to speak up, to put myself out there, and I don't I it's not like I like doing it. You know, of course, it's uncomfortable still, but I realize it's not just about me. It's so many other women who feel like they have no voice, they've been silenced, they feel invisible. And so if I wanted representation, it had to start with me. And all this really stemmed from growing up in Toronto in the midnight in the in the in the early nineties, not seeing anybody in the media that looked like me because that really hurt my own confidence. I felt like I needed to look a certain way. I need to have a certain skin color, certain hair color, certain eye color just to feel beautiful. I was embarrassed of my own culture, and it wasn't until my twenties when I finally embraced it. And so growing up in Toronto, Canada in the early nineties, you know, I never saw anybody in the media that looked like me. And I think my the work that I did really started from there because I was so always ashamed of my own culture. I wanted to look a certain way to feel accepted, to feel beautiful, and it wasn't until my twenties when I finally embraced being Asian, being being proud of who I was, my culture. But it wasn't until 2015 when I realized that I really wanted to create a platform to highlight more Asian women to dismantle the negative stereotypes. Because time and time again, that's all I've seen. And you think in 2015, there'd be more representation, but there wasn't. And so in order for me to create it, I had to be the one to do it. Even if I had no clue what I was doing or where to even start, I said, I'll find a way. So in September 2015, that's when I actually started my own podcast called The Tao of Self Confidence, where I've interviewed over 800 women on the topic of confidence, mostly Asian women. And, you know, I I didn't even know what a podcast was when I first started. Like, I had no idea. I just saw it on Itunes at the time, but back then it was on Itunes. There was hardly any Asian people podcasting at the time either, so I was like, I don't even know if this was the right thing. Right? But sometimes if you're one of the first people to do it, it's it's a good thing. Right? Because then you're the one starting it, starting this, like, wave of other people doing it. So, you know, I still have the the the podcast till this day being able to interview so many amazing women. And because I've been able to interview so many women, it's helped me with my own confidence issues, realize that, you know, learning to love myself, fully love myself, good, bad, and the ugly. And that's where persistence comes in because, you know, it's almost 10 years, and, like, not everybody has that that that drive to keep going, especially sometimes when even when I first started, I didn't even know where I was going. I just knew I needed to have a platform. I just kept going, and it's led me to so many other things. You know? I've written a book on on trauma and and how that affects us and how we can move beyond that. You know, I I speak for many different companies, be able to, you know, be seen as a leader even though sometimes I don't feel like it. But, I mean, if I stopped at the 1st year or even the 5th year, I wouldn't even be here today. And so I realized persistence was my power because without it, I wouldn't be here today. You know, I wouldn't be here talking to you, being able to write a book, not just for not just any book, but a book for Wiley, which is one of the top five publishers in the world. Never thought that could ever happen to me. Not because I didn't believe in myself. It's just because, you know, how many Asian authors are out there, right, that are getting signed under big publisher names? Now there's been more, which is which I love, and it had to start somewhere. So, you know, if people think there's, like, this secret sauce to success, but, really, the the only thing that I think is really important is you just have to be persistent in what you want. Right? Even if you can't explain how you're gonna get there, you'll find a way. Because most people who are successful have no clue what they're doing, and I think it's okay to say that. Like, even some of the biggest names you see are just figuring it out as they go. And I think if we're more honest on that, it'll be a little bit more helpful because, especially as women, we're always told to, like, prepare everything before we start, but then we keep preparing to the point that we forget to start, and we're just preparing and preparing, delaying our own success, not realizing you can go out there and make mistakes, course correct, and you'll get a result. And so I I had to go through many mistakes, figure things out, but I always knew that no matter what happens, no matter how bad the situation can be or no matter if I'm going through my own dark moments, I can push through. I can keep moving forward and and rise to the top. So that's why for me persistence is so important because anything I ever did or anything I ever got, it was through my persistency that led me through here. You know, you don't you know, people think you have to be the smartest. You have to know everything. Actually, you don't because I don't know everything. Like, I I never thought I'd write a book. I had to take English classes coming to Canada because I couldn't put sentences together. You know, I wrote my book, the the the child of self confidence at the age of 40, and that's when most people think as women being 40 is, like, being expired, but it's not. Right? It's never too late to go out there and do what you want. You can start at any given given moment if you believe in yourself. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it really does take that belief in yourself to go out there and make things happen and knowing that you are capable no matter what the circumstances is because there's gonna be crazy moments in our life. And if we learn to practice or have the tools and resources to keep moving forward to build that persistence, we become invincible. So I know I went a little bit on a tangent there, but I think it's really important to just share those things. So when you're working with people, you mentioned a bit earlier about some of this is down to limiting beliefs or imposter syndrome or cultural stereotypes being reinforced within your own community. And sometimes you said it takes a lot to stop and change. So how how do you encourage people to to stop and to create the change? I mean, I think it's also like learning to ask the right questions. Right? I remember talking to a lady who was afraid of going to parties. Like, she was always afraid to be in a group setting. And I asked her why, and at first, she was blocking me. Like, she did not wanna tell me. And I'm like, I can't help you if you can't help yourself. Right? Like, I can't help you if you're not gonna tell me why this is happening. So, you know, I let her have her space a little bit, and she finally opened up. She said the reason why she feels this way and and the reason why we had this was because she was invited to a party, and she was having a panic attack because she didn't wanna get ignored at the party. And so she said about 10 years ago, she went to a concert with a group of people. And for some reason, the that group of people left her alone. So she was alone at that concert, and she had to, I guess, find her way home by herself. And because of that, that's really traumatized her to be in group settings because she was always afraid if she went to a group setting, someone's gonna leave her, and then she's gonna be all alone again. And so I had to tell her, like, you have to look at things from a different perspective. Right? What happened 10 years ago is not gonna happen now. Plus the person who is throwing the party invited you, and it's not the same group of people. It's a different group of people. Right? A lot of us, we tend to hold on to the past. I'm the same way. You know, I'm human. You know, sometimes we think what happened 10 years ago is gonna happen now, but we have to see things from a different perspective. Right? And, also, our brain is protecting us in the process. Because we go through so many bad things, our brain is unconsciously protecting us from that bad thing happening again. So sometimes we also have to talk to ourselves and realize, you know, again, what happened 10 years ago is not gonna happen now. And so because she was able to see that, you know, it helped her realize, like, okay. You're right. This is a new setting. She invited me. I didn't invite myself, and these are a new set of people. They're not the same people who's gonna leave her or abandon her. So those are some of the things. One of the things I also talk about is learning to have confidence strengthening. Right? Because we're all born with confidence. You know, when you're a baby, you can walk, you can talk. Even if you fall down, you put yourself back up. As kids, we just have no fear in anything. Right? We'll we're bouncing off the couches. We fall off. We get up. We cry a little bit. We we move forward. Right? But as we grow up, we have society, cultural differences that tells us no or tells us you can't do this. You can't do that. And so then we start to get a little bit more cautious and then to the point where we're too afraid to do anything. And so sometimes we just need to build that muscle back to be more confident to go out there and do those things. So, you know, that's something that I realized actually recently. Right? Because, I mean, you were born with confidence. I was born with confidence, but then it just got lost in the way as we grow up, and we just need to get it back. It's kinda like working out. Right? I mean, you know, we may gain a couple pounds. If we wanna lose it, we go back to the gym. We eat properly to lose that weight, and then we feel good again. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, as as as for growing out, you mentioned that we we learn by making mistakes. Yeah. And I I guess it's how that mistake is treated. If you have positive encouragement and nurturing as a result of that to to grow and develop, you'll grow in confidence. If that mistake is always negative, it's treated badly or you're you're criticized for it, you're gonna be fearful of making mistakes. And if you're fearful of making mistakes, you're fearful of growing, you're fearful of changing, you will stay in your comfort zone all the time. So it it really does come from early childhood trauma effectively, that that fear of making a mistake, isn't it? Oh, yeah. I mean, I failed kindergarten in the Philippines for coloring outside the lines of a photo. So, I mean, that traumatized me until my adult life. Right? I thought everything I would touch would be an instant failure because I that was my first major failure at the tender age of 5, and I had to, like, redo kindergarten and move to another school all over again because I couldn't color within the lines of one photo. And if I had the personal development work that I I have now, I can interpret that as I wasn't a failure. I was just meant to color outside the lines. I was just meant to live life a different way versus what everyone is supposed to live, especially in my culture. So and I guess everything had to happen the way it happened so we can share these moments and share these these these learnings so that other people can maybe start seeing in their own childhood or their own life what's stopping them from moving forward. Right? What do they see that's negative that's actually a positive? So, I mean, it and you don't have to do this alone. Right? That's another thing. Like, when it comes to your mental health, your confidence journey, like, it's okay to ask for help, to ask for a second opinion, to have a second pair of eyes because we also have a lot of blind spots. So trying to figure it out ourselves is actually gonna delay us, and being able to seek help or receive help can help us. Right? Like, maybe being taught be like, when it comes to mental health health, like, it's there's no shame in seeking a mental health professional, right, if that's gonna help you. Everyone's different. Maybe reading books will help. Maybe joining a community, a women's group, listening to podcasts like these. You know, there's so many different ways to do it. I think it's just important to pick and choose what would work for you because, like I said, we're all different. We're not all gonna learn the same way. We're gonna we're we'll have similar similar ways, but, of course, each and every one of us will have something different. Even though there's, like, over, what, 8,000,000,000 people in this world, we're all different and unique. Yeah. We are for sure. And would it be such a boring place if we were the same or even similar? It's So we need that, that uniqueness that each of us bring to the party, I guess. I I I suffered, I suppose, in my childhood, that the fear of making mistakes or being over corrected or not allowed to express myself or, and then the same way you talked about colouring outside the lines. I was always told by my father actually that if I was writing a letter or writing, you know back in those days we used to use pens and paper didn't we? And, I was never allowed to write something in ink to start with. I had to write it in pencil, but then when I got it right, I was then allowed to ink over the pencil then rub out the pencil afterwards. So if I was writing a a thank you letter at Christmas or a a letter to a friend or something like that, I always had to write it out and my father would read it first and correct it, and I'd we ended up in crying in tears, and I'd finally be able to ink it in. And I still remember that trauma now of of of never been good enough. Whatever I was doing had to be inspected and passing someone else's test before I was allowed to express myself. So I think I did a couple of creative exercises, which the teacher apparently loved. She told me that it was she loved it. I brought it home to just do a bit of tidying up, and my dad got hold of it and said, you can't write that. That doesn't make any sense. It's a little rubbish. And I had to rewrite it all very clinically, and I ended up not submitting in the end. And the teacher said, what happened to that? I said, oh, I lost it. And, because it, I've been so reinforced into this behaviour that wasn't me. And I could, I could see where all my limiting beliefs and, my perfectionism, if you like, and and the recrastinations come from, because of these sort of ways that I was always bought out by my father. And, yeah, he's taught me procrastination and perfectionism, which has has been a a hindrance sometimes. Yeah. I think I think we've all gone through that. Right? You know, showing up a certain way, being being only acting one way, or else we're not accepted. And it and because of that, we feel like we always need permission from somebody to make moves, take action. And so that's why, for me, I'm always like, I need to put myself out there so that other women can see, like, you don't need permission. You can just go ahead and do it, especially when it comes to self promotion. I mean, a lot of people think it's tacky. It's no good. But for me, it's empowering because it helps you build your confidence. You know, if you have products and services that can help somebody, why why wouldn't you be your biggest advocate? Right? And and it builds also being becoming a leader. Right? Because it shows you many different skills. And it's not easy. It's uncomfortable. It's still very uncomfortable for me, but I realize, again, it's not just about me. There's so many other women out there who feel like they don't have a voice. There's no one that looks like them making moves, and so I have to show up to show others what's possible. And then it goes beyond my culture. Right? It goes to other other cultures, other groups, and and because even though we may come from different cultures, we still go through similar things. And, you know, we just I I I just feel like we need more good in this world. It's just such a chaotic time right now. But one of the one of the problems I've I've I've found recently is that as women, we're not very good at amplifying other women. We we've almost reinforced the limiting beliefs or we're trying to put other women down. And we'd we're our worst enemy sometimes, not promoting ourselves or each other or beating each other up. We can be very critical, hypercritical, more than more men often than men are sometimes. Yeah. I I you know, I've witnessed that. You know, sometimes part of the reason why women don't move forward is because we're the problem. Right? And, you know, instead of tearing each other down, we should be lifting each other up. And I I get it. You know, it's years of, like, programming thinking that there's only one spot at the top, not relying there's not realizing there's so many spots, or we can create our own table or our own platforms, and it takes a huge mind shift to to gets get away from. You know, there's a lot of work to do, of course, but it has to start with us putting ourselves out there, showing others we can make a change. Because if, collectively, we work together, that's how we can overcome so many big problems that we encounter still. So we know this. Everything you're saying, we know. It's it's in your book. It's in other people's book. It's, we talk about it at conferences. We have women in parent sessions. We we have leadership coaches aiming at women. We everything you're talk we're talking about here now, we know. So so why aren't we making a huge difference in a huge change or the change we want to make? I think there's still a lot of, I guess this is just what I think, so it's not the absolute truth. I think there's still a lot of mindset shifts we have to work on. You know, everything starts with how we perceive things. And when we can learn to shift how we think, that's when we can start creating the change. You know, like I mentioned, there's still a lot of people in the scarcity mindset, and we have to unlearn a lot of things too at the process. Right? When you've been taught the same thing for generations, for years, it might take some time to to fix that. Right? Fix the way we see things, fix the way we think. I mean, when it you know, when you look at reports, they say, like, girls start having confidence issues as young as 6 years old. Right? Versus boys, they they don't, you know, they start building confidence at 8. So it's a big difference. And so that's that's why we have to keep showing up, keep showing others what's possible, be able to encourage others even when times are tough. There's no easy fix, of course. But if we just take it one step at a time, just imagine what we can achieve. Are men doing enough to help? There are men out there who are great allies, and at the same time, there are men who aren't doing great things. Right? I mean, there's gaps for a reason. Right? Leadership gaps, gaps in different industries. I mean, you look at the VC the VC world, like, only 2% of women get funding. And when they do get funding, it's only, like, $1,000,000 versus, like, you look at the guy who owned WeWork. He got he made it bankrupt, opened a new company, and got, like, $300,000,000 funding just because you know, even though his track record isn't great, meanwhile, women over you know, are very smart or very capable, have prepared such an amazing presentation, and yet they'd be lucky if they get 7 figure funding. Right? And it's tough. And sometimes I don't even know what the answer is to break through that unless we just keep moving forward and just be persistent to show them, like, you need to pay us. Right? Pay us for what we're worth. And it's always a constant battle. Right? Because it's like, you know, if if we go out there and ask for more, now we're seen as aggressive or too much. Meanwhile, guys ask, and it's like they're confident. But if we don't ask, then it's also our fault. There's always, like, this double standard that we have to live by, and it's exhausting. That's why it's important to dismantle these these notions, you know, especially for women. We need to have more positive positive, I guess, words or labels, you know, instead of being aggressive. Like, why aren't we confident? We're doing the same thing. Why are we still labeled as aggressive versus being confident? I mean, we can definitely go through a whole conversation on this because there's just so many layers and and and things that we still go through, and it's tough. I mean, I'm right I I wrote all about that in my next book that's coming next year because I think it's important to be aware of all these things that we're still going through and then finding a way to solve it. Like I mentioned, it's not gonna happen overnight, but if we don't do anything, you know, the World Economic Forum mentioned it's gonna take a 130 years for gender parity to be achieved, at least. But I feel like at the rate we're going, it's gonna take longer. You know, when you hear women in Afghanistan not being able to have a voice, not being be being able to speak in public, show their faces in public, not not being able to sing in their own home. Like, I think that is ridiculous, and some people might think, well, that doesn't affect me. But for me, it does. As a woman, like, it does affect you because if one country can do it, imagine how many more countries can do it in the year of 2024 when we think women's rights have, you know, moved way forward when it feels like we took one step forward and 5 steps back. So I guess this is why I'm so passionate, and I keep persisting even when at times I question myself, you know, especially when you're doing something for the greater good. I think sometimes in our journeys, we question, like, is this the right path? Am I doing the right thing? Is this making sense? And when we get a sign from the universe or, you know, when someone comes up to us and tells us how much has helped them, then I realize, yeah, I know where I'm going. So we definitely have a lot of work to do. It it always frustrates me when we you you mentioned the World Economic Forum Statistics under the 34 years, gender parity, gender equity, and the and the that's generally in the western world. If you look at the the whole world, it it touches near 200 years, and that's clearly not a great place to be. This, women succeed when they're more like men, is the frustration, isn't it? There's this myth that you can't, you have to sacrifice something in your life, you know, you have to either sacrifice some of your maternal instinct, your nurturing instinct to you. You have to be the one that's going to work late, travel the world, stand up in meetings, be loud, be boisterous, be one of the lads in order to succeed. It's really hard to be a woman being a woman, isn't it? It definitely is. I mean, it's definitely not easy. There's still so many double standards. You know, if we don't speak up, then it's our fault. If we speak up, we're too much. You know, like, the backlash women get just for speaking up is horrendous. I mean, I've been through it, and it's not fun, and I had to learn to work through that too. I mean, yes, it's easy to say just ignore it, but, like, as a human being, you know, it's gonna get to you sometimes. Right? And we have to learn to work through it or find outlets to let it out or talk to somebody who's been through something similar so that we realize, like, once that happens again, we can learn to move forward and be like, okay. That's just someone's opinion. Right? That's just probably somebody who's just brave behind a computer, but, you know, in the like, if they were in that same position, they probably wouldn't be able to go through it. And sometimes the people attacking you might be projecting what they're feeling. And it's it sucks that it happens to us, but at the same time, things happen for a reason. It could be a blessing or a lesson. And those lessons, we can also share with the audience. Right? Knowing that I've been through it. You're not the only one going through it. Yeah. It sucks. And, you know, what I get is nothing compared to some of the other women that I've seen, just the backlash they get. It's it's it's terrible. And sometimes I'm just I just pray that they're okay and that they can get through it because sometimes it's all we need we can do at that point. Right? So We see many women in their forties and fifties finally finding their voice. So they they've had their their family. They've had their time to be them, if you like, their maternal instincts. And then when they come back in their 40s 50s, they're finding that new empowerment. And we see a lot of rising, there's certainly female entrepreneurs in their 50s now, where they, they've, they've had what they needed to do, but they're still 10 years behind their male counterparts at that point now, because because they have had a career break, because that's what that's what mattered to them at the time. They they didn't wanna sacrifice what mattered to them, whereas men can still a man with a good boy a woman next to him can always get away with, if you like, outsourcing the family responsibility to the mother and or the the other parent, if you like, however you wanna describe the relationship. So it's it's how are we ever gonna solve that problem? Oh my gosh. I don't even know, to be honest. Like, I you know, I mean, I don't always have all the answers. Right? Especially, like, I'm I don't have kids. I'm not a mother. It's it's it's I mean, it I guess it's something that we have to figure out one step at a time, whatever that may look like. And I know it's not easy because if it was easy, everyone would be working on this. Right? I mean, it's and I think it's okay sometimes to say you don't even know what that answer might be even though I talk about confidence all the time. I think we're also afraid of having the wrong answer. We're also afraid of saying I don't know. But at the same time, I think it's refreshing to say that because sometimes I don't know. I don't really know what to say at times. Right? And I remember not being afraid to say I don't know. I would have, like, major anxiety attacks thinking I had to know everything before putting this before, like, showing people that, you know, I'm capable. Like, I may not know the answer now, but as we keep focusing on this issue, we can find an answer later. So I hope that kinda helps. Yeah. I mean, I I look at when I was starting a family back in the mid nineties. We were early nineties, we started our family, and it's a different world, you know. Now we look at property prices, rental prices, economic climate. Most families now need 2 incomes in order to pay the rent, pay the mortgage. It's a real pressure now for, for women, because they're the ones that are looking to pause their career to have children, or choose, we're not going to have children because we can't afford it, so women are being asked to compromise their, their sense of self, you know I said earlier about you've got to focus on what's important to you and not be led by societal's expectations. So if you have an expectation, you want to have a career, fine. But many women still want to have a family, and many men want a family as well, and it's, it's unfair that we have to choose, and it's it's unfair that women are the ones that have to do the sacrifice, because the structures aren't in place with shared paternity leave, there's still stigma about men becoming primary carers for children, they're seen as weak. Again, these stereotypes reinforce there, so almost like we've got to give permission for men to be full time parents first, to allow that, that role to be valued in society. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We know the answer. We're gonna solve that one first. Yeah. You're right. It's a it's a it's a it's there's so many chicken and eggs here, isn't there? There's so many, gotta fix that, gotta fix that, gotta fix the other. Yeah. But, so all of this plays into the the lack of confidence, the, the lack of persistence, the lack of resilience, the the people you work with are finding that, some of it's cultural around your, your own personal culture but also it's the culture of being a woman and societal constructs and the expectations of being a woman. And that's doubly reinforcing, not just for Asian women, also other women, yeah. Yeah. You play into the self perpetuating cycle of of of of oppression, for one of the better way of describing it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I realized, you know, just after realizing, like, talking to so many other women, you know, we go through similar things. We may look different. We may come from different cultures, but we still go through so many similar things. Like, mental health is still a taboo. Right? Not feeling good enough. Feeling like we have to be a certain skin color to be beautiful. Like, if you look at skin whitening creams, it's like a multibillion dollar industry. So that's a worldwide thing, not realizing everyone's beautiful in the skin they're in no matter what shade that is. And so it's unfortunate that they're profiting off of women's insecurities because, I guess, I think everyone's beautiful in their own skin, and we have to learn to just show up that way even if it's scary. Right? Even if we wake up with a pimple on our nose, you know, it's still us. So it's, yeah, it's it's it's yeah. There's a lot of stuff, I guess, we have to work on. It is. That expectation, as you say, for for beauty, and, I'm very conscious about the fact that when I walk out the front door, I want to look at myself in the mirror and go, yeah, I've made an effort today. If I, if I go out without make up, wearing just jeans and the top, I sometimes think, I look at myself and think, I'm just feeling really lazy today, I just want to go, I just want to sneak out and then you come back and you think, wish I put a bit of color on or wish I put a bit of this on or and it it's there is that pressure you feel. In my past life, I never used to have that experience. I would just show up as I as I showed up and not even give it a thought. But there is an expectation to show up as the best you all the time. Yeah. I mean, I think it's that need for perfection. Right? Being that perfect person and then, you know, you look at fashion magazines, like, all you see is perfectly curated edited photos of models, not realizing, like, they do so much editing that you can't do that in real life. Like, you can't just shave off part of your waist, part of your leg to make it look beautiful. You know, a lot of women and even men go through body dysmorphia because of that. And even in the pandemic, people are going through Zoom dysmorphia, right, because they didn't like how they look on Zoom, and so they went to get surgery so that they could look better on Zoom. And that and it might sound ridiculous, but it it did like, that was a thing. Right? And so this is why I think it's important sometimes to just show up as your imperfect self. Be okay that, yes, you may have blemishes on your face. You may have scars on your body from falling down when you were biking or whatever that may be because that's who you are. And, you know, that tells you the story of what you went through, how much resilience you had, persistence to be where you are today. Yeah. You're too short. Your bum's too big. Your bum's too small. You've got no waste. You've got too much waste. Whatever it may be, That those are all messages, as you say, we're reinforcing the beauty industry. I have my nails painted yesterday, and that's once you get on that conveyor belt, you have to go back every 3 or 4 weeks because they grow, you have to take it off, put it back on again, your hair, you get into this cycle of suit, you leave the salon, they book you in your next appointment. So the on cost of being a woman, just just to show up in the world is, but just face cream, makeup, beauty, hair, nails, 15 different pairs of shoes depending on what the weather is, different outfits depending on what the weather is. You can't wear the same thing twice or everyone says, hang on, you wore that yesterday, didn't you? So you've got all this pressure, whereas men just turn up in the same suit, they just maybe change their shirt every day and put a different tie on, But, fundamentally, there's there's less expectations. People aren't judging men in the same way. Yeah. Totally. I mean, especially when it comes to parties. Right? Like, you can't wear the same dress twice. People will notice. You know? Men can wear the same suit over and over and over again and never get judged. Like, these just little simple things like this. If you go to a posh night owl, you wear a tux as a man, don't you? And, and it's a a black black dinner jacket with a a a white wing collar and a bow tie. Yeah. That that you can wear that every single time you go out. That's what's expected of you for as you say, as a woman, we have to go shop for the new dress, have our hair done, have our nails done, probably a pedicure, probably a massage, a facial as well just to make sure we glow and we're radiant. But since we walk into the room, we're then we're then comparing ourselves to every other woman in the room, aren't we? We're then judging, you know, going back to what you're saying earlier about being our own worst critic. We're now putting ourselves down and competing with every other woman in the room to be the most attractive or the most, yeah, the most standout person, and again, we're doing it to ourselves. Yeah, for sure. So your books about overcoming this crisis of confidence, this persistence, What are the top tips for someone listening to this, this episode today? What what's the top tips? You know, where do we where do we start? I think the most important is really getting to the root cause as to why we we're feeling this way. Right? I mean, I wrote the book the child self confidence, a guide to moving beyond trauma and awakening leader within because we need to work through our traumas. We have a lot of unresolved traumas that we're afraid to work through, and it's really important to get to the root cause. Because if we don't heal from that, it's just gonna keep taking over our our our life. Right? We just feel like we're not good enough. We're not gonna go out there and make things happen because of the traumas we've been through. And not just only our own traumas, but the traumas of our parents, our grandparents, and so on. And so, really, I think that's the most important thing. Get to that root cause as to why you're feeling that way. And then once you're able to heal from it, you know, the how will appear. Right? Like, being able to find ways to build confidence. I mean, I can share so many different ways to build confidence, but the most important thing is to really work through that unresolved trauma. Or maybe just maybe you're not even aware that you're there's trauma in you. Right? Maybe trying to figure out, is there trauma? Like, how can you how can you find that? Maybe talk to family members or, you know, like, your body will give you signals if something is wrong and just learning to be curious and asking the right questions so that the right answers will appear. How do people challenge power, if you want? Because that's the problem sometimes, isn't it? The when you talk about marginalization, you talk about less privilege, whatever however you would describe it. How do people push back against the power systems that exist? And without sometimes, as you say at the you said right at the beginning that you don't see role models, so you're gonna be doing this fit in a very isolated way. You're gonna feel very exposed, very vulnerable. How how do we find our inner strength? Well, for me, the purpose is really important. Right? For me, representation was really important. I didn't want current future generations to go through what I went through growing up in Toronto. And so when times are tough, that's what I that's what I always go back to. It's like, why am I doing this? It's because I realize we need representation. We need better role models. We need someone that looks like us so that others can feel seen and realize what's possible for themselves. So, I I mean, having a big purpose is really important, or else you're not gonna go out there and do half the things you're gonna do. It's not gonna help you build the confidence to keep moving forward. I always go through that every time I'm feeling down or not feeling like I'm a 100 percent a 110% confident. That's that's really helped me. I've always led with my purpose, even to people who have never met me or know me, but they can they know what I stand for. And so when people know what you stand for, it's just a lot easier for you to go out there and take action or have the right people come to you. But as you're as you're speaking now, I'm thinking it's it's about personal brand, being authentic, and and those you mentioned by the beginning about values, you know, understanding what you stand for, who you are, what's important to you, things you need to shed, things you need to focus on, and be really disciplined about your core values, I guess, and what you, and who you are. Yeah. And how do we find those? Because, again, that's that's the other challenge, isn't it? You know, I not everybody is used to be able to crystallize that as a thought, and that's maybe that's part of the coaching you do. I think that's why you don't have to do things a lot. Right? Everyone always thinks that they have to figure the these things out on their own, not realizing there's someone out there who can help you find those values. Right? Base like, there's personality tests. There's archetypes that can give you a set of values that may align with you, and then you can pick and choose if that works for you. If not, you can pick something else. Right? And at the same time, you have to know what you feel is good for you. Right? Just because someone tells you these are your values, and you're like, I don't know about the third one. Maybe it's this one. And if you feel better on the on what you've chose, then that's great. But being able to give you a list that may work that may be those values, and then you can come then then you can start thinking, well, is it really, you know, just really going through that work, taking through that taking make maybe 2 hours out of your time to really work through that and really figure it out, it can help you a lot. So sometimes you just need someone to start it for you to figure it out and finish it. So persistence, confidence, support, mentoring, owning who you are, and saying to yourself, if I don't change, it won't change. Yeah. So taking that personal responsibility is is part of it as well. Yeah. Brilliant. Absolutely fantastic. Sheena, I've loved chatting away for the last hour and a bit. How do people get hold of you? Tell us more about your book, your LinkedIn, your website. Yeah. For sure. So check out my website, sheanyapchan.com, or you can if you wanna check out all my social media profiles and links, just go to sheenyapchan.comforward/links. All my books are there. You can order. It's available on Amazon and all major book retailers. On my website, sheenyapchan.com, there's also a free quiz that you can take to know your self confidence personality. So it's a couple questions. You get the results right away. And I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or x, TikTok. But if you forget anything, I said, if you just Google my name, Sheena Yap Chan. I'm the only Sheena Yap Chan, so it makes it easier. So Sheena is s h, double e, n a, y a p, and then Chan, c h a n. Yeah. Yep. Fantastic. Well, as I say, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you today, and, I'm gonna go check your book out on Amazon in a minute and, and and take a look at that and also your website. So I'm really interested to find out more. So thank you so much, and it's been a pleasure talking to you. Same here. Thanks again for having me.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@cchangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.