--- title: "Inclusivity In The Digital Age" episode: 132 date: 2024-10-31 guest: "Luke Morrisen" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/132-inclusivity-in-the-digital-age audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-132/audio.mp3 --- # Inclusivity In The Digital Age Joanne Lockwood is joined by technology and digital recruitment specialist Luke Morrisen to explore what inclusivity can look like in today’s digital working world, grounded in Luke’s personal journey and his experience placing people into tech and recruitment environments. Luke describes struggling in traditional education, leaving home young, and later discovering that he learns differently. Becoming a parent, particularly to a neurodiverse son, prompts deeper self-understanding and a commitment to helping others move beyond limiting beliefs. He shares how structure and clear goals helped him thrive in recruitment, build confidence, and ultimately set up his own business. A major thread of the conversation focuses on alcohol-centred workplace culture and how it can exclude people and undermine wellbeing. Joanne and Luke discuss sobriety, addictive tendencies, and how ADHD-style “all or nothing” patterns can amplify reliance on alcohol or caffeine. They reflect on the real-life consequences of alcohol on judgement, safety, and participation at work, and argue for workplaces to design social and expense policies that don’t default to drinking. They also examine what it takes to build inclusive teams in tech: being honest about culture, avoiding tokenistic hiring, and ensuring people are supported once they join. The episode closes with practical reflections on culture change, understanding individual needs, and creating environments where more people can belong and perform at their best. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Growing up experiences, fatherhood, learning, giving back. - 04:39 — Realised potential after humble beginnings, prioritised family. - 08:12 — Insufficient funding causes frustration but grant helps. - 11:36 — Homeless, music, work, self-discovery, friends, wife. - 14:28 — Seeking wife's support, took leap of faith. - 18:16 — Companies need diverse talent, but challenges arise. - 19:10 — Balancing company culture, honesty and change. - 23:11 — Adapt, value diversity, listen, make brave decisions. - 27:09 — Interviewed young lad, values aligned, hired him. - 29:54 — Regretful past, changing for family and self. - 32:48 — Creating inclusive environment for socializing with alcohol. - 37:47 — Breaking cycle brings freedom and new life. - 41:13 — Giving up coffee made me healthier and focused. - 43:33 — Body becomes numb to coffee's effects over time. - 46:06 — Building a special life for family, helping others. - 48:32 — Confidence in priorities beyond material possessions. - 52:41 — Clients' readiness for business change is questioned. - 56:54 — Matching right people for long-term cultural fit. - 58:40 — Expressing gratitude for listener, encouraging community engagement. ## Key takeaways - The hurdles faced by families seeking educational support for neurodiverse children and the transformative effects of receiving the right support. - The importance of diversity and inclusion within the tech industry, particularly highlighting the need for comprehensive gender and ethnicity balance. - Strategies for fostering an inclusive environment, especially concerning alcohol consumption in social and professional settings. - The personal and professional benefits of reassessing relationships with alcohol and caffeine. - Challenges and strategies for leadership in creating flexible workplaces that accommodate diverse working styles and personal preferences. - Practical steps for organisations to move beyond performative diversity measures towards genuine inclusivity. - The significance of understanding and aligning with individual needs and company culture in effective recruitment practices. ## FAQs ### What are some challenges Luke Morrisen faced in getting support for his child? Luke Morrisen encountered budget constraints and bureaucratic difficulties within the educational system while trying to secure extra support for his neurodiverse son. This struggle underscores the broader issue of resource allocation in education and the hurdles parents face in advocating for their children. ### How did receiving extra support impact Luke Morrisen's son? Receiving the necessary support at his new school greatly benefitted Luke's son, leading to significant improvements in his academic performance and self-belief. This highlights the importance of tailored educational interventions for neurodiverse children. ### What personal experiences did Luke Morrisen share regarding ADHD and neurodiversity? Luke reflected on his own struggles with ADHD and neurodiversity, including his departure from home at 15 and subsequent challenges. These experiences later contributed to his understanding of his son’s learning difficulties and fuelled his commitment to securing appropriate support. ### How did Luke Morrisen’s career evolve, and what industries did he work in? Luke transitioned from a passion for music into the recruitment industry, where he thrived in a structured and numbers-driven environment before starting his own business. Eventually, he moved into technology and digital recruitment, specialising in web developers, software engineers, and digital creative designers. ### What role did Luke Morrisen's wife play in his entrepreneurial journey? Luke’s wife provided crucial support and encouragement, helping him overcome fears and uncertainties associated with entrepreneurship. Her support played a significant role in his decision to start his own business and contributed to his success in the digital industry. ### How do Luke Morrisen and Joanne Lockwood view the societal relationship with alcohol, especially in the workplace? Both Luke and Joanne discuss the societal glorification of alcohol and its detrimental impact on lives and decision-making. They advocate for organisations to reconsider alcohol inclusion in events and expenses, creating more inclusive environments for non-drinkers. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 132 with the title, inclusivity in the digital age. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Luke Morrison. Luke is a technology and digital recruitment specialist. And when I asked Luke to describe his superpower, he said, it is his resilience and transformative ability to turn personal challenges into empowering opportunities. Hello, Luke. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you Luke Morrisen: very much for having me. What an intro. Joanne Lockwood: We're just looking forward to this because, we've been chatting with the green room and it's you've got a fantastic story, and I can't wait to hear it myself in detail and also for our guest as well. So, Luke, Inclusivity in the Digital Age. Tell me more. Sure. So I guess it really Luke Morrisen: just comes down to a bit of my backstory and kind of what happened when I was younger growing up and and the life that I led and moving into the world of recruitment and being a father. So is there's lots to it. There's lots of moving parts, and I've kind of feel the journey of being at school was was not great for me. The challenges I had, not understanding myself truly and deeply to then working my way up into lots of different roles outside of recruitment, becoming a father, having a son who's neurodiverse, having a daughter. Kind of now, I'm at this point in my life where I want to learn more and I want to give back to the community out there. And I I guess for me, the biggest part is is learning myself and learning on this journey, but also helping people like I'm helping my children at the moment understand who they are and how they can progress themselves and how they cannot have limiting beliefs really. But you're one of those children who are Joanne Lockwood: messing around and not learning and in the in the bottom set put in the sort of the no hope of class. Was that was that you, was it? Absolutely. Unfortunately, yeah, it was. Luke Morrisen: In in all honesty, I was I was never very good at school. It's not the environment that I learned well in. Sat sat down, being spoken to for an hour, then moving on to the next class, being spoken to about stuff that really didn't engage me was not the right environment for me to learn. And like many people, my wife is complete opposite. She loves learning in that environment. My daughter's the same. But me and my son, we are very similar where we would get distracted, disruptive, need to need to just set ourselves out of an environment. And, yeah, unfortunately, I was the kid that didn't learn well at school, didn't get any of my GCSEs, not for not for not wanting them. I definitely wanted to do well at school, and I never bunked off school like I was always present, but I just I just couldn't it wasn't the right environment for me to excel in, and I've seen a lot in that in my son's journey and and it's it's something that I've become quite aware of now. But do was Joanne Lockwood: there a particular age that you discovered this or was it right from infant school, if you like, year 1? Age Luke Morrisen: of discovering that school wasn't the right environment for me. Yeah. Yeah. At what Joanne Lockwood: point did you realize that you you just couldn't learn in in a traditional or contemporary way at at school, the same way that all your children I I know this sounds a bit odd, but I Luke Morrisen: think I actually think it was probably probably my late twenties that I found I realized that. I know that sounds a bit strange. I I always thought, and I'll be completely honest, I I thought that I was really stupid, really dumb because I didn't do well at school. I'd never do well in my career as I got older. So I I left school with no g s no GCSEs. I didn't go into upper education. I went straight into a building site, working on-site, worked as a roofer, as a landscaper, as a tree surgeon. And it wasn't until I had my children where I thought, right, I need to be a provider, and I want I want something different for my family now. So that's kind of where I started exploring other avenues and after a few years, got into recruitment. And it wasn't until I was in my late twenties where I thought, actually, I'm not stupid. I it okay. I learn in a different way and I'll and I have to be a hands on practical or a visual learner, but it doesn't mean that I'm stupid. And then when my son was born and as he got older, I started seeing similar traits as to it was like a mini me. I mean, he looks just like me. He acts just like me. And it's kinda I kinda realized again, he's not a bad kid at all. He just struggles to learn in that environment. And it kind of solidified exactly how I felt when I first discovered that in my twenties. And it kind of kicked off from there, really, and that's kind of set me on this this new journey and the trajectory of supporting people that are struggling and helping helping people become aware of the differences in how they learn and how they interact with people. And it it doesn't you shouldn't just label them straight away. Look, you know, you you can't sit and you can't do this this written test within an hour. So you're branded as dumb. That's kinda how I felt when I was younger. But now I realize that I can do it. I just need to do it in a different way, and it's exactly how my son learns as well. Yeah. We went Joanne Lockwood: through a journey with Arslan now discovering that, he has a form of dyslexia and some other complications within that kind of reading and processing ability. So, yeah, we we discovered that probably when he was about 10 or 11, but having spent many years trying to get him to learn to read and not having much luck and eventually getting diagnosed. And, yeah, he was at private school at the time, and the private school basically sort of said to us that they they weren't the best place for him. I think they were worried it was gonna bring their grade average down if he wasn't able to pass his exam. So we ended up pulling them both out of school, both our children. But, yeah, it it's it's quite a stressful time as a parent, feeling like your your child isn't isn't responding in in a way you hope they would. Yeah. Yeah. And that we I mean, Luke Morrisen: the the educational system at the moment, I feel is is struggling in that sense. My my son was at a school before he moved and he liked the people there, kind of got in with the wrong crowd similar to when I was younger, which then just had a bit of a snowball effect onto his behavior and his learning abilities and his contributions to class. And my wife's been battling we've been battling with the council, the West Birch Council, to try and get him EHCP, try and get on board with SENCO and try and get him some extra help here inside of school, which is it's actually shocking how much of a challenge that's been. It's been really draining on my wife. I mean, it's a lot of admin, so I'm not very good on the admin side. So it's the role that she's taken with this. And it's just quite baffling how hard it is to get somebody that really needs to support. And, unfortunately, it comes down to budget at the end of the day. And for and I understand it, but it's when it's when you're in that position and it's your child, it's so frustrating to know that the needs of your child aren't being met just because of a budget. So, yeah, we've we've been through a big ordeal with that. Fortunately, he's moved schools and he's been given the grant that he needs for the extra support and the extra help within school and within the education, and he's absolutely flying now. I mean, he he's loving it and he's getting grades that he'd never thought he could have achieved without that extra bit of support and it kind of it resonates with me and when I was younger because I never had that support, you know, neurodiversity, ADHD, I haven't been formally assessed because I'm on the waiting list for that. But every test that we've done for my son and submitted, my wife's gone, Luke, that's you. That's you. That's you. That's you. I mean, me and my wife's been together 18 years. She knows me better than anyone. So back then, I thought I was just really disruptive and I was thick and I would never amount to doing anything special in a career. And now I see my son going through that, and it's just given me a hope now that he's not gonna have that limiting belief. He knows that his environment needs to be right for him to excel. Quite common, from what I understand, for people Joanne Lockwood: to realize something about themselves when they're helping their children through it. That's I've you're not the 1st person to mention that to me. It's it's kind of it's a way of getting the diagnosis without getting a diagnosis. You Yeah. You just go hang on a minute. That's me as well. Yeah. I guess I guess you see so many similarities in your children and Luke Morrisen: yourselves. You bring them up how you've been brought up and you raise them with the same morals and values as yourself. So, I mean, it's easy because he looks like a mini me. It's I was just almost like looking at a younger version of me. But, yeah, I I I see it so much. My daughter is very much like my wife. She's very academically switched on. She finds it extremely easy to to learn in a in a school setting. I mean, if you look around my house at the moment, she's she actually wants to be a teacher, and she's got she does mini virtual classes to a fake audience, you know, she's 10 nearly 11 years old and that's that's who she is and that's how how she wants to progress her career and that's what she wants to do when she's older, which is great. It's very much like my wife. So we see very similar traits in both my son and and my daughter. Oh, that's fantastic. I I love that. So you you left Joanne Lockwood: school Mhmm. As you said, without any qualifications as such. Yeah. Or not ones you were proud of. What happened then? You you you'd say you went to the building site. You started doing stuff. Yeah. So I I actually left home at 15. Luke Morrisen: So right just just before my exams and GCSEs were kicking off, I left home. I was kind of raised on farms when I was younger. It was it was hard graft as as a child. I mean, looking back, it's a fantastic life to live, but when you're in it and you're a teenager and you've made loads of friends at school and they're all going out seeing their friends and kind of building that friendship circle when I'm on the farm working and supporting my parents, well, my my mom, it's it's quite challenging. And I I sort of kicked off a bit, and I needed to get out. And so I left home at 15, sofa surf for a little bit. I ended up my mom doesn't actually know this, but I ended up living on the streets for a for a couple of weeks while I was trying to find somewhere to live. So, you know, I lived a bit of a life up until finding I actually found music at the age of 17. Moved to Swindon, I was working as a roofer, and I was DJing at the weekends and in the evenings, and that was kind of a bit of a self discovery mode. I've I've made quite a lot of friends that are older. My par girlfriend at the time was nearly double my age. So I kind of started learning from others and seeing how they were kicking on with their career and what they were doing. It was all quite inspiring. And then I met my wife, I was 8 18, 19, moved back to Newbury, where I live, and kind of realized then that me and my wife were getting quite serious at the time. We then had Frankie, my oldest, and that's when I realized that I couldn't I I wasn't where I wanted to be at that point. I wanted to be a lot further on to support. We didn't have a house or mortgage or anything like that. So that's kind of what led me into recruitment. I worked at the BBC for a for a IT cleaning company, started doing some business development for that business on the side, was engaging with the likes of ITV. And I was like, wow, this is this is cool. Well, I enjoy that. I enjoy this side. This is something I never knew I could do. And then I got a job in in recruitment, and it kind of kicked on from there. And that's when I started to really believe in myself and believe that I can achieve pretty much what what I put my mind to. Recruitment is quite a cutthroat business, isn't Joanne Lockwood: it? It's salesy, quite disciplined. So you are you are able to adapt to that environment quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Because Luke Morrisen: it's a structure that I excel in. I excel in I excel in having a day plan and I excel in a real structured day. Call in the morning, I'm doing this. I know I need to speak to these candidates, update them on their situation, then I can move on to the client work. And there's KPIs and numbers to hit. I'm quite numbers driven. So it was an environment that worked really, really well for me. A lot a lot of people it doesn't work for, and that's not an environment that best suited to them. But for me in particular, I was the more I was doing it, I was getting really quick wins. I got MVP of the year in in the first recruitment business I worked in. I became top contract biller and I just it just fueled my confidence. And it was it's it's everything that I need in a career to excel. So that's when I then moved into another business. I became a a leader within that company, and after 4 and a 4 and a half years, I thought of of working within that role, I thought, actually, I need something for myself now. I understand recruitment. I've been doing it for 10 years. So that's when I braved up and and set up my own business. Wow. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Jumping off that cliff and realizing it's just a step. Luke Morrisen: Yeah. That's that's exactly how I felt. I mean, it's I mean, there's, you know, millions of people that go out on their own and and set up their own journey, but when you're when you're a provider for the family and you you've got a good steady income coming in, your children are happy, and you finally got a house that you were were really proud of to then make that jump again. It was something I had to talk about a lot with my wife and really had to dig down if this is the right choice. And do you know what? Bless her. Straight away, she was like, Lou, I know you can do it from where you've come from to where you are now. I've got no doubts. If you think this is the right decision, you can you should go and do it, and you can do it. So it it's when you're in the trenches, it's it's not as scary as you think it's gonna be, but it's making that leap in there and and jumping in. That's that's the scary part. Right? It is. Yeah. Just it's the fear of the unknown. There's Joanne Lockwood: nothing. We all we all face that. So you're you're in technology and digital. Is that is that right? Correct. Yeah. So what what what sort of scope is that? That's that's IT. That's electronics. It's STEM type. Yeah. It it's Luke Morrisen: it's a really tough one for me because of my my differences in character. Right? I'm a bit of a magpie. So I like to if I see something shiny, I learn to jump like to jump on it. But what I'm really proud of that I've managed to do is stick within an area that I've done for 10 or so years. So web developers, software engineers, digital creative designers, product managers, That that's the realm that I know and I understand, and I probably shouldn't start dipping my toe in other areas until I've completed this part of the business, and then we can add new parts. But, yeah, it's it's a fascinating industry. You meet some fascinating people from all spectrums. You know, you get very introverted developers, you get very extroverted developers. So I I really enjoy understanding on the on the initial call. I really enjoy that call. I I get I've got a good feel of who this person is. I I understand that they're probably not gonna be, like, to be spoken to in this way. I'm gonna have to speak to them a bit differently to get them engaged and to engage with them. And then once I'm on that journey, I can then start piecing brilliant. Well, that'll be really good for this client actually because that that client's got an amazing culture that can help support them on their journey or they're good for the role technically, but that definitely won't be the right business for them for them to go into because it's not an it's not a it's not an environment that will help them thrive. So I feel like understanding my journey and where I've come from and my son's journey, my children's journey, I can now identify blind spots in candidates when they're talking about businesses and culture they wanna go into. So I can, yeah, I feel like I've got a good understanding now of how to piece that together and and almost put the puzzle in the in the jigsaw. You said the culture is really important, isn't it? Because Joanne Lockwood: I've got a an IT, bit of a developer background myself, and you tend to find you're mingling with people in in organizations who are creative. They're marketeers. They're HR or operations or production. And each of those different skills has a different way of interfacing with each other. And I find sometimes IT people are stereotyped into this sort of person with a long, you know, long beard looking like Gandalf locked in a cupboard, no dark. Yeah. Just feed me coffee and and pizza and leave me alone. To be honest, that's kinda how I was. You know? I I didn't want to be interrupted all the time. Yeah. Last thing I wanted was people people standing over me asking stuff. Yeah. And it's it's it can be quite a a challenge for people who are not used to working with people who are artisans and artists and technically competent and brilliant because they they often do think differently, don't they? Yeah. Absolutely. I think Luke Morrisen: it's a really it's a really gray area and it's a thin line to to tread because you you need companies need those types of people. Company needs a developer that's really happy sitting at home, plugging away on their code, maybe working in the middle of the night and sleeping until 12 o'clock. Some businesses actually need that and they have many developers or engineers in that environment that work in that manner. But it's kinda like breaking the mold because 8 clients would be, look, we we need some we need some diversity within the business. We've got a load of this, but we we need something else. But once I put that new person into that business, how are they then supporting that individual if they're the only one that works in a certain way or if they're the only one that's really expressive and that can communicate and, you know, is happy to jump on sack all the time and speak to people, but nobody in the business or nobody in the team wants to talk to them. It it's a real tough tough line to walk. Like, how do you manage that? And I guess it comes down from it it comes from the top. Like, you have to have really hard conversations with business owners and CEOs and directors of what is their culture, what what what is your culture? Like, don't tell me what you believe it to be. Like, actually, what does it feel like? Cause I think you'll have a lot of interesting conversations where they explain what they want it to be, but naturally you hear conversations or you look on Glassdoor, you read some reviews, so it doesn't sound like it's like that. So be honest with me. And once you can have those conversations and then you can start introducing them to people that they've they probably would never have on their radar before, I think that's when the fun starts to happen because that's when culture starts to change. And I've had it in in previous roles where I've been a manager of of, you know, a recruitment team in Reading and and in London, and you you have these conversations with your team and you get to know everyone on an individual level. I think it's really important not to have this blanket approach to management because that's where that's what I've seen in the schooling system that doesn't work. You treat all of your pupil pupils as the same. They all learn the same. Well, in reality, that is completely false, and you have to you have to be able to break down barriers. You have to understand what how does this individual thrive? What how do they like to learn? How do they not like to be spoken to? And that may be completely different to Jane that's in across from them, but you have to have that different approach. And that's when cultures start to change, and that's when you start introducing some different varieties of people and different learning styles, and you kinda see everybody excel in their own areas. And, yeah, that's where I think a great culture starts to be created. Yeah. Again, without stereotyping anybody here, the Joanne Lockwood: there are people who interface better to the computer and less effectively to people. But then there are people who are able to interface between the deep deeply technical people and the less technical people. So you end up having these layers of interface where some people can translate from human to machine, some people can't. So you have to you have to put people where they're where they're best, how they communicate. I remember I was at an event once, and I was talking to I think it was a business owner. He was talking about his IT staff, and he couldn't understand. He's these these IT guys, they just don't fit the culture of my organization. They they they grab their lunch. They sit in their car. I wanna take them to the pub. I wanna do this. I wanna do all this network bonding at lunchtime. They wanna sit in their car, eat their lunch. They come back in. He said, I can't cope with it. I think I'm gonna fire them. I'm gonna fire people who who wanna join him. I said, you really don't get it, do you? That's that makes them happy. And it's trying to incorporate, as you say, all those different needs of personality type to get the best out of people and work with them where they wanna be, not all not demand they come where you are. Your culture, actually. Culture has evolved amongst everybody. Absolutely. Luke Morrisen: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's probably more of a selfish requirement of what that individual wanted out of his team rather than what the team wanted out of each other, you know. Yeah. You see it, especially in recruitment. I mean, it it's it's got its pros and its cons and, you know, people have got some great things to say about recruiters and some terrible things, unfortunately, like many industries, I guess. I've I got into recruitment fairly late in my life compared to many others around me. I was in a business where I was the only one with children. I didn't wanna go out drinking all the time because I've kind of had a life of alcohol before. And I was kind of frowned upon and looked at, like, you know, look, you need to you're you're a manager in the business. You need to be going out with your team. You need to be doing this. And it's actually, like, that's not what I wanna do. Speaking to the team, some really enjoyed and wanted to do that. Some really didn't. So then we started creating a world where, cool. Well, we'll go and do this this time, and we'll go and do this another day because, you know, you you start then changing your environment. You're you're changing needs for other people and then you you're becoming more flexible. And that's really really I guess people really value that as a leader and value that as a business. You know, sales culture and in recruitment, we had lots of people that were Muslim that didn't drink, and that was a bold step for a man a manager to go out drinking with them. And he's kinda like, mate, is that the right thing to be doing with your team where you got people in there that don't drink? And so, well, a lot of the people do. It's like, okay. But how do you create a safe environment where they feel like they should be there and they don't wanna go home early or they don't wanna attend it? It's it's tough, but you have to be brave and you have to make some brave decisions. And I think you've you've gotta put your selfishness to one side and really listen your team and get to know them. That's a really good point. I I Joanne Lockwood: gave up drinking. I stopped drinking 945 days ago, not that I'm counting. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible the amount of life and work business that revolves around drinking in some way, whether it's your meeting in the pub, you're watching the football, you're watching the Olympics, whatever it may be. And suddenly when you don't drink, how you often feel excluded. Because why would I want to go and spend an evening with a lot of people who were drinking? Because after about an hour, it becomes really tedious, and I can't drink that much water or that much lemonade or whatever it may be. So, yeah, it it does exclude the people who are for whether it's chosen, a faith, or a need to stop drinking. Often our workplaces are places where drinking is still centered as part of the culture. It's a bit like smoking was 15, 20 years ago where to be in the in crowd, you had to be in the smoking group outside in the in the pouring rain smoking with each other. That was kind of the place to be with the boss who smoked, wasn't it? And things happen in the drinking zone as well. Deals are done. Yeah. Yeah. Luke Morrisen: Absolutely. I mean, I've I'm I've congratulations on your sober journey, by the way. That's that's really good stuff. I've I've dipped in and out of alcohol ever since I was a teenager. When I was DJing and working and live and working on-site, it was full of builders that went to the pub at, you know, middle of the day and then I would go out into clubs still where you could smoke in in a club and I'd be smoking and drinking. My life was consumed by alcohol and, you know, other parts that come with with that lifestyle. When I had my children, I kind of knew the effects it was having on me being a dad, being a a good husband. It took me a long time to get to where I am now where I finally decided to stop completely. I would do 6 months here, 9 months out, go on a real big health kick. In the back of my mind, I always thought, well, Christmas is coming up. So I'll drink at Christmas, and then that'll I'll be drinking again. It's fine. So I was always working to a a milestone. About 4 months ago, I decided to pack it in, and I have had no regrets whatsoever. I mean, I've got no milestone in my mind that I'm gonna drink. I'm going on holiday with the family in a few weeks, and it's not even on my radar to have a drink right now. It is I'm I'm beyond that. This is this is a turning point in my life because it is, personally, it's no good for me. Lots of people can have the odd drink here or there, and it doesn't affect them. I am all or nothing. I've demonstrated that in a lot of things that I do in my life. So for me, I have to make that decision. It's really tough at work because I wanted to do this. It was really tough in employment, actually, is probably a better way to put it, because I wanted to give out alcohol when my kids were born. But working in the sales environment, you know, I wanted to progress. I wanted to show the the managers and the the business owners that I was committed. Along with that comes turning up to events, being fun, being engaging, not being the odd one out. So you end up drinking loads and loads and loads. And it it will it actually wasn't achievable, which is sad. I think that's really sad. I actually interviewed somebody for for my business a couple of weeks ago, and he's a young lad who similar journey to me, but he's identified it really early. He doesn't wanna be involved in the culture, the drinking. And he's actually left that business and joined another really good recruitment business off the back of that. And that's that was a moment where I thought these are the types of people that I wanna hire. I wanna hire people that understand who they are or they they I don't want to put anybody in an environment where they don't feel safe or they feel like they have to be somebody that they're not to fit in. So that was a real sort of standing point where I thought, wow, that's, you know, that's given me a good understanding of what I want the company to be, but also it gives you a good insight as to how poorly people are doing it at the moment. I remember I was invited to a a Joanne Lockwood: 3 day reunion weekend probably about a couple of years And the person sent through this agenda, and it it starts off with gin tasting, then there was a wine taste, then there was whiskey tasting, And it it went on to lunch, pre dinner drinks, bottle of wine per head with the meal, aperitifs, whiskey, whatever. And I just went back and said, look, I don't wanna be miserable or upset anybody or or or make it a big deal, but it doesn't sound like it's for me. The whole agenda has alcohol as part of the agenda item. So it's not an afterthought. It's it's kind of driven by it. And they they came back and said, well, we can do you a we can do a a a different cost if you're not drinking. I said, no. No. You missed the point. It's the fact that everything is centered around alcohol being a core part of the program, and that's just not for me. And I don't wanna put myself in an environment where I'm sitting around watching people get drunk because that's what happens. And we know the behavior changes after I'll drink up a glasses. So it's I I now actively take myself out of those spaces in the same way that when I gave up smoking, I actively took myself out of spaces where people smoked. You know, people were gonna have this meeting outside in the smoking area. Or if I was with a group of friends in the pub at the time, they said, we're gonna go for a cigarette. I'd say, go on then. I'll stay in the pub. I'm not gonna join you. I'm not gonna add me to you to go and socialize where you want to socialize. So how about you hang on here with me? Oh, no. No. No. So I think I think we've gotta start taking a stand as as nondrinkers and even say, oh, I can give you a Becks Blue or a Peroni 0 0 or something like that. Yeah. I'll have that if I'm in an event where that's the option. But I I won't be looking forward to go, oh, look. I can have a 0 bid. And I yeah. I'm looking for so I go for different reason now, but the thing I've I learned about it about myself is that I now make smarter, better choices. It's 10 o'clock. I'm feeling tired. I'm gonna go home. When I was drinking, it was like, how many more can I squeeze in before the last train? Oh god. Missed the last train. Where can I stay tonight? Well, we'll go clubbing then. I'll I'll find somewhere later, and then you end up sleeping on Waterloo Station gripping onto your laptop with a with a cup of coffee in one hand and your laptop with a pillow in the other hand, waking up with a with a lap full of cold coffee when and no trains left because you've fallen asleep, missed everything. So I've been there, and I've got so many friends who who's who tell these stories of me, and they always revolve around being drunk or being silly or being whatever. And it's since I've gone to the point in my life where I didn't want my life to be remembered by as a as a drinker in that way. And both of our children have a story about me being drunk on holiday in places, and I thought blimey. You just take a one eyed look at yourself. That's not who I who I want to be. And I I think, again, going back to what I said earlier, as a society, as a as a in the world of work, we send to alcohol in the same way you used to send to smoking and alcohol. We've moved on from smoking. Let's move on from alcohol being sent because it it does exclude. It's still the in place to be in the pub, which is why many women feel excluded because many of my female friends do not wanna go to the pub more than for for half an hour because it gets messy. Things things change. And it's not a safe space in a in a drunken environment for for many women and many other people as well, but, yeah, women especially. And they they plan their nights out around it. And if this is being done in those environments, people are gonna be excluded. I think that's we've gotta change our relationship, haven't we? Yeah. Well, the the trouble is, I mean, our Luke Morrisen: our society here in Britain is so alcohol is such a big and I've when I get stopped drinking, I've I've never proclaimed that I'm gonna keep harping on about it and, you know, telling everyone about my journey. But as as we've discussed it, I think it's important to mention our society is built up around alcohol, and it is it is a huge part of everyday life. I mean, I've got friends that don't deem themselves of alcoholics, and they'll drink every day a couple of beers, which is fine, but it doesn't affect their life and that I could never do that. It doesn't affect their life. They can still go on and achieve great things and, you know, families and all sorts. I I really struggle with I really struggle with are we ever gonna get past this point. I'm seeing more and more sober people than I've seen before. I think there's a lot more people becoming aware of it, seeing the benefits in others. I mean, I could talk all all afternoon about the benefits of not drinking alcohol. But as a society, it's so embedded into who we are now. I can't see it changing more than it is now. The pubs are getting more expensive. It's probably gonna stop people drinking a bit more. I get that. But it then bleeds into the workspace. And how do you how do you create an environment where people can have alcohol for the ones that do want to go out on socials and that, you know, they do drink, and then how do you create that environment for the ones that don't want that without excluding one another? It's a real it's a real tough one. I don't know the answer. I'm still early into this journey, of course, but I definitely feel like you need to understand everyone on a deeper level, get to know them individually, get to know what they want, what they don't want, and then coming up with ideas that, you know, maybe go out and do an event that doesn't involve it. And the ones that that wanna crack on and do that and drink in the evenings, go and drink in the evenings because I guarantee the sober ones want to go home at 9 o'clock or 8 o'clock and see their families and relax. That's where I am now. Yeah. I I agree. I I Joanne Lockwood: think one of the things you can do as an organization is make a stand and say nothing we ever organize will have alcohol included. Alcohol is can be an option. You can go and buy it yourself, but the business will no longer fund alcohol purchases, and that includes expenses policies. You know? Zero tolerance to alcohol on expenses. You know? A drink with a meal is not alcohol. And as soon as businesses start taking their very proactive attitude, alcohol will always be included and paid for by the business. Therefore, people always abuse it. I mean, I I've I've got a gold star in abusing expenses policies with alcohol. It's it's abusing parties. I yeah. I'm not trying to play white to the white here. I've been that person who's collected trays of shots while it's still happy hour or free at the bar, put them under the table, and bring the whole table and start collecting alcohol so you got free drinks all night. I've been that person, and I'm not proud of that. I look back and think, well, that was the culture that was there. Everyone was doing it. And, I guess, the organization, the company knew that they're gonna end up with a a 30 k alcohol bill, but it was all seemed to be worth it. So, yeah, it's we've gotta have to start having 0 tolerance and organize things that aren't based around alcohol until we do. That's the right thing to Luke Morrisen: do. Yeah. Because it ruins people's lives, and I'm not not being Joanne Lockwood: that as a reformed drinker. I'm not trying to implant my perspective on everybody else, but, yeah, it does ruin people's lives. And we see I was just just to put a date stamp on this recording, we were we had the race riots couple of weeks ago in the last the last 10 days. I've seen some of the stories about people who were charged and imprisoned as a result of it. Someone just literally walked out the pub. All their mates are going, come on. Get out here here. They're all fueled out drinking, and suddenly their their life has changed because they made the wrong decision after a few drinks. And we know that it it gives you it it removes your objectiveness and your decision making power. Yeah. I I Tricking and driving are things. I I genuinely believe Luke Morrisen: nothing good comes from alcohol. I do I I can't put one point in my life where alcohol's contributed to any success or any positives in my life. I can't okay. There may be nights where I had a really good time. I had a had a good laugh, but I have some great great times with my friends not drinking. I went on a stack date not too long ago, and it was really tame. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't a stack stack do. We're all, you know, late thirties now, but it was I I had an amazing meal. I sat there. I had 2 alcohol free Guinness's, and I drank water or diet coke for the rest of the night. And I was I came home and I was so so happy and proud of myself that I've managed to have a great night with great friends, not drunk. And I woke up the next day. I did what I needed to do. I was present for my family, I was there for my children, we you know, I'm I'm doing more and more with my family now than I ever done. But it's because the most important thing to me right now is family. The second most important thing is getting my business off the ground and making it a success for my family. And I can't do that whilst I'm drinking alcohol because it then consumes me as a person and all all I end up doing is being an alcoholic in so in a sense. Yeah. Having a hangover waiting for the next drink. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Kinda how it was. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you're if you're at different stage of your life where it it helps you relax, absolutely, then fine. I'm not here to police you as you are. But you but you sometimes you just need to step back and look at your life. Yeah. And, work out how much of it's consumed or dominated by having a drink. And then when you stop, it really is it really is noticeable how how much everything revolves. And the other thing, my wife and I, we're trying to lose weight. So you you you realize how much life revolves around eating and drinking. Mhmm. It's part of your socialization. I guess it's a human thing. So, yeah, it's yeah. It does dominate your life and Yeah. So many Saturday mornings and Sunday mornings that you can get I can get out of bed till midday or they're feeling rough afterwards and then you have another drink. You still feel rough. You drink through it. Yeah. It's Luke Morrisen: it's a forever going cycle, isn't it? That's the trouble when it's, it's until you've been until you brave up and you go, well, I don't want this anymore. If you've know if you knew that if you've known for a long time that it's not something you wanna keep doing, when you finally get to that point and you you break it okay. It's a bit scary. It's a bit daunting at the time and, you know, you think that people are gonna look at you differently or treat you differently. That's only that's I feel like that's their own insecurities rather than, you know, they're probably a bit jealous because I think a lot of people would love to stop drinking, but just this part of society, they can't. When you do that, you realize how how easy it is actually and how much more life you get back. I always I remember James Cordon talking about alcohol. I can't remember exactly what it was, but he would say whenever he drinks one day, he gives the day back to alcohol. So it's 2 days gone of of his life because of the hangovers. I mean, my hangovers would I'd have a couple of pints on a Sunday, and I'd fill it until Wednesday. So my hang of hang overs are a lot longer, but you you give that life away to that to the alcohol. And I've got that life back, and I've got that time back. So now I've been putting it into the family and into the business, and it's, you know, it feels like the perfect time to stop, Deborah. Joanne Lockwood: Do you think your ADHD or your neurodiversity fueled that kind of addictive behavior? Was it could you I'm not saying blame it on that, but could you see a sign where it was that all or nothing totally? Luke Morrisen: Yeah. Absolutely. Like I said, it's not understanding my son's neurodiversity and the the way that he is with things, he is very much all or nothing. I am all or nothing, and it is a big part of ADHD. So you when I get into something, I get into it. I'm not a fad where I'll do lots and lots of different things and, you know, do a jack of all muscle and I know I will put all my time into the thing that I love at the time. Same with golf, like, I I love golf. That is my hobby. That's my time away. When I was in the gym a lot, I was doing bodybuilding. I was you know, that was my thing at the time. But I've always kept golf and gym in my life. Alcar was something that I just couldn't couldn't do a little bit of. I and I said to my friends all the time, they're like, surely you can just sit here and have one beer. I was like, I could. Of course I could. But I will go home and I would want another beer. And then it's taken over my weekend. And I would I've lost my weekend's outcome. My family's lost their dads to, you know, being down the pub with friends. It's just it's just not important to me. And now I've realized this, and now I've understood who I am as a person. And I'm still on that journey. I'm still very infant into understanding who I am. But now I'm on this journey, I realize what's good for me and what's bad for me and how addictive I can get to to situations and alcohols, and it is part of neurodiversity and ADHD. I definitely a lot a lot of people that drink a d that have ADHD shouldn't drink because it is an addictive trait. So, yeah, I would definitely pass it on to that. Blame blame ADHD. Well, no. But it's it's all part of Joanne Lockwood: that hyperfocus. It's all part of that. I mean, I I know I can't I can have none, but I can't have 1. 1 is 10. Yeah. Yeah. Or or it's or feeling that you need 10. Even even if I have 1 and have to leave, it's like, oh, one more. We'll we'll finish somebody else's off. You know? That's the worst thing. Yeah. Do you Luke Morrisen: know what? I've given up recently as well because I'm now on this journey of healthiness and, you know, being healthy as I grow older and being there for my family. I've actually given up coffee and it is that's I was as shocked with giving up coffee and the effects it had on my body than I was when I gave up alcohol. I mean, my my focus now and I do struggle with focusing at work when I'm on my own in my office and I'm I'm, you know, grinding out, trying to get the business up and running. Coffee and if I would say and maybe have 6, 7 cups of coffee a day. Now I don't drink it, and I'm through that period of not drinking on, what, 2 months now, I am so much more focused at work. I sleep a lot better. It's I just I had no idea. But again, it's an ADHD thing. You know, if you're if you've got that type of personality, you shouldn't really be drinking coffee or drinking alcohol because you can't get addicted to it. And you can end up, you know, it can change who you are and how you work. Yeah. We we we share another similar thing. I I Joanne Lockwood: gave up caffeine for about 8 8 years ago. Did you? I being with an IT background, it's almost like you'd you've been working all night. You're engrossed in something. You you'd stand up for go to the toilet, get a coffee, or you you wait for something to compile or wait for something to load or doing something like that. You go and grab a coffee or out in the old days, go have a cigarette, have a coffee. And then I remember walking around Sainsbury's about 8 or 9 years ago, and I remember my I felt really, really uncomfortable in my chest. I felt really kinda like I was pulpitating. And I started doing some analysis of this and realized that it was coffee. It happened before when I had a a Red Bull weekend a few years before, but I realized that coffee did it. So now I drink decaf. I still drink too much decaf. But I if I have a if I have a full strength coffee now, I can feel it. If I have 2, I've I I start feeling my chest. It's going funny. I start feeling hyper. I feel kind of really uncomfortable. And, so, yeah, I I know what caffeine does to me now, whether I'm whether I've developed an intolerance to it over my life or whether I'm just masking it because I was doing so much of it. But, yeah, I I I have a very high or low threshold of tolerance for for caffeine. Well, you you get used to it after time, don't you? Your your body Luke Morrisen: becomes numb to the effects of it, same as alcohol and, you know, any substance that you do more and more and more of, you become used to it and it doesn't have the same effect. So I've not I refuse to have a coffee now because of the headaches I got after stopping. I mean, I had 3 or 4 days of in the middle of the night pounding. I was I was googling it, which you should never do when you've got a headache. Don't ever Google anything like that. And then it and then I kind of so the reason why I stopped is when we had that first heat wave about two and a half months ago, and I couldn't drink during the couldn't drink hot drinks. I was like, no. I'm gonna give it a rest. And then it got to Sunday, and my head was pounding. Laura was like, if you change this in your diet like, she was getting quite worried. And then so, actually, I I haven't drunk coffee for 4 4, 5 days. And then she's like, I reckon it's that. And then we looked at it and because it it restricts the capillaries in your brain to stop the blood flow, which is why when you stop, your capillaries open up and that's when you get the headaches. I was, oh, I'm not gonna drink it now if it if it's been I struggle enough as it is with my with my brain getting blood in now. I don't wanna don't wanna add to that. So, yeah, I gave gave it up after the back of that. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. It's, it's really ask if we we Joanne Lockwood: can share any of our stories. We both got addictive personalities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. But I think it it just take it just takes something in your life. As you as you've said eloquently many times, it's around finding that focus about your family. You're you're turning your hyperfocus, if you like, on on your social side, your family side, getting getting pleasure and satisfaction at the love of your family, which you can't do that when you have another monster taking over. Yeah. It's a really nice way to frame it actually Luke Morrisen: because I'm I always look at myself, oh, maybe I'm never happy enough. Like, I'm always looking for the next thing. Like, that's part of my personality, but actually framing it. And, like, my hope and focus now is my family. That's a real I've not I've not thought about it that like that before. That's a really nice way to look at it. And I I look at the challenges my children have had. You know, even my wife, she she's in brilliant roles. She's worked at a great company for a long time. She left to take a step up in her career and with a new with a new company, and unfortunately, it didn't go to plan. Her manager left. She was left with lots of stuff on her plate, and it threw a downward spiral. She was off work. She's never been off with panic attacks or anxiety. She was extremely she was in a really dark place for a long time, and that was my it's like a commitment now. I wanna build something so she doesn't have to work, so she can do something that she really loves doing. I know she loves her role now, but I wanna I wanna create a life for my family that is special. And I think understanding my family and where they've been and my children, I've I really believe that we can help that with other people looking for jobs and companies that are hiring and taking my experience with speaking to incredible people that are perfect for their business because of their culture, not just because of their technical skills. I think there's some really nice there's some really nice nuances within there that I can help match that. I'm still on this journey. It's still very early for me. I've got lots and lots to learn and, you know, podcasts like this and speaking to people like yourself really help contribute towards that. But, yeah, it's it's I feel like it's the right time for me. I'm I'm maturing finally as a person. Joanne Lockwood: I think that we I think well, I think we all go through, but some of us go through it later in life where you you finally start to understand the game of life. You realize what it really is all about, what are the important things, what things you'll you'll grow to regret that you didn't do rather than things you do do sometimes. And looking back and saying, actually, that I don't wanna keep keep repeating the same things I'm doing. Actually, what I want is this. And it's almost reframing. You don't have a work life balance. You have a life balance that allows you to live your life and then feed that with what you need to succeed. You know, I I talk about I'm much more I'm talking about sufficiency now rather than gluttony. I went through a phase of my life where I was I was gluttonous, if you like. I wanted bigger cars. I wanted I wanted to compete. I wanted more of this, more of that, more of the other. I'm not saying I still don't buy things. I still buy things, but I don't it's not about competing. I buy it because I want it. Mhmm. I enjoy it, and I'll get some benefit out of it, not because it's the biggest one or the newest one. I'm I'm driving a 17 year old car, and I love it. I own it outright. I don't owe anybody anything apart from the tax on a monthly basis. But, yeah, it's it's mine outright, whereas in the past, I had to have the the latest. I've had X Fives. I've had 4 series convertibles and turbo this and turbo that. I mean, because it's it seemed to be what right now say, sufficiency is is kind of a model I'm happy with. I've I've got sufficient for now and next week, maybe next month. That's all I care about. It's confidence in in what you're what you're looking for and what Luke Morrisen: you want, isn't it, really? I mean, you're you're confident that actually you don't you don't wanna be chasing the big cars and all that because it's not important to you and who you are and what you're about. You know, as a salesperson, you typically, you'd have your Lambos and your Ferrari stuck up on your board behind your computer and all that kind of stuff. And I've I've had nice cars, and that stuff isn't important to me. It's you know, I drive a an electric car. It was good because it's through the business. You get a tax relief off it, which is why we got it. But what's important to me is making sure my wife's pension is maxed out when we're older and my children's pensions are maxed out if I can. And, you know, if I can put the effort in now, you know, I could get to a point hopefully when I'm in my fifties that my wife can she knows it. She's got a full pension max out for her. That that's the goal for me and that's that's what I wanna do. I wanna I wanna be able to support support my family. And that isn't that Joanne Lockwood: the I I call this the definition of freedom. Freedom is is is the ability to make a decision about what you want to do, the the freedom of choice. Knowing that you have the means and the support and the whatever it may be, the sufficiency around you to to do that. So what you're trying to say is you want yourself, your wife, your family to have freedom of choice at this point in their life to do whatever they wanna do. And if that is stay in work, stay in work. If it's not, let's do this. Good traveling, sit in the sun all day. It's one part building that freedom, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, growing up on the farm, Luke Morrisen: my mom worked very hard and, you know, she had 3 boisterous boys at the age of 18 and we, you know, we were rough and tumble kids and she she did what she could. I mean, she she's had an amazing career. She's got a brilliant business. She's winding down for retirement. You know, really proud of what she's achieved, and I wanna be able to achieve that now for my family. I mean, it's gonna take me a long time. Don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm not baffled and deluded. And, you know, this time next year, it'll be happy we've been going 2 years, close to 2 years now. So I think I've got another 10 years of hard graft until I can sit back and see the plan evolving. But, yeah, that's what I I want them to have that flexibility and freedom, and it's not something that I had when I was younger. No fault to my mom who was trying to do the best she could for us, but it's it's given me that motivation. And it's especially, you know, being so close to my family and and really being present with them now, it's even more of a driver. Joanne Lockwood: It talks about culture and when you're working with organizations around trying to place candidates, persuade candidates this is the right opportunity for them, persuade the opportunity this is the right candidate for them. Are you seeing in the in the sort of the tech sector that you work in, the digital sector, representation of a broader demographic, or or is it still the usual suspects? Are we seeing a a broader gender balance? Are we seeing a broader ethnicity balance? Or are we still stereotyping into the traditional candidates? We are Luke Morrisen: definitely seeing a broader ethnicity balance. Definitely, I feel. Gender balance, it's on people's radars, but it's I don't think they've got strong enough initiatives to support that. I think businesses want to have a a less of a gender gap. It's probably a good way to put it. But they're unsure of how they can do that. How can they attract females or males, whichever whichever way there's the imbalance. So I definitely fit all yeah. I I I feel like it's on their agendas, but it's it's so early into their journey. They haven't really created them something substantial to onboard them. Like, how how are they gonna support a a new female developer in an all male business? Like, what what are you doing to support that person coming on board? How are you gonna stop all the conversations based around football or, you know, whatever gender topics pop up? It it it's Yeah. The lab culture, the Yeah. Grow environment Joanne Lockwood: sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I I I I'm speaking to more and Luke Morrisen: more people and especially since setting up the business that lots of clients come to us and it's something that they want help with and they want our support on. But I don't know if a lot of them are actually ready for it. So there are a lot of the conversations we've had. I'm like, are are you are you saying it because it's a tick box exercise, or are you actually truly needing to change this because the culture is so bad and because you want the business to evolve? So it's it's digging down on on that topic and really understanding their needs and their situation. I am worried that some companies do it as a tick box exercise, which is a bit sad, but I've spoken to some brilliant companies the last few months that are it is part of their agenda, and they're driven to change. So I I feel like it's moving in the right direction. I don't know how, I mean, don't know how you would see it from from when you were working within that world, but I it's probably changed a lot. I think it I think it mirrors Joanne Lockwood: what what you're saying is there's a lot of willingness out there, but a lot of it is, I would say, passive. They're kind of expecting it to fix itself, or they're just magically expecting more women, for example, to apply for a role and they don't, you know, well, okay. No worries. We'll just hire one of the men. Mhmm. So it's a lot of passive. There's not a lot of what we call active, deliberate targeting, you know, positive action campaigns, looking at their recruitment marketing, their employer brand, sorting out their own culture first, and having honest conversations with young women saying, it's a bit of a bit of a lad culture at the moment. We're trying to change it. We need your help. Mhmm. Are you prepared to give it a go with us and, and work with us on this? You have our we have your back. Nobody wants to be the first, and that's that's the tough one, isn't it? If you're Yeah. Feel brought as the first and the only. We see so many examples of women coming into those environments, and then it's it's just not fair on them. The culture isn't evolving around them. That's that's that's the point that needs Luke Morrisen: to be made. It's like when you do when you do change the culture and when you do start becoming more inclusive and thinking outside of the realms of what they deem as norm and hiring some good talented female engineers or, you know, whatever that inclusive piece that's missing is how is that person gonna feel when they join this business? Are you are you just trialing it out to then make the people got to understand, these aren't just CVs. They're actual people behind these CVs. So you may have an initiative. You may wanna bring some females on board. But once you do bring one on, it's almost like trial and error. It's like, that's not that's not the right way to be doing it. The when you mentioned to me just then, you kinda said, like, look, it's it's that has a real honest conversation. We need your help. We are struggling. We want to do this. We want you to run with it. That's the best type of conversation you can have with somebody in that situation because they're they're showing they're vulnerable. They know they've got a problem, and they're looking for help and support to get them through this period. My piece of advice would be hire more than 1 at one go. Hire hire a select range of people all at once, all different ethnicities, female, gender, whatever. That's what I would do. But don't just hire one person as a trial and error piece and see if it works. And then, you know, because there's a lot of change and there's a lot of work to do in the background to make sure that individual feels safe and they feel comfortable and they they feel that they're wanted and that they're needed. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: It's you say if you bring several people in together, even if it's 1 woman and 2 men, you're diluting the norm. You're disrupting the current culture and creating a new culture by just by the number of people. So, yeah, I think if you start day 1 and you're the only one, if you start day 1 and you're one of 5, then you have a chance to have new new allegiances. You can build bonds and and and relationship with those people as well. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it doesn't necessarily have to be 5 women, but Luke Morrisen: No. No. Absolutely. And they're people. Yeah. They're the future of the next generation of the business. Right? So if if they're all onboarded together and it's not just one singular, it's a group of new employees and they're all together there. And if you match the culture, and this is this is what's really important is making sure you find the right people for the right culture. If you can match the right people, not just the CV to fill a void, like, that's what we try and do is, like, that this you've spoke to me about your culture. This is what your this is what works inside for this person could benefit and actually the culture is good for them and they, you know, vice versa. They're on that journey together. So 5 years down the line, the norm of you know, that's the norm for them. All the people who have been in the business long standing prior may have left, and then you there's more people coming through the ranks. That's how culture changes. You can't change it overnight. It is a long lengthy process, but you've got to stay committed and you've got to be humble enough to accept what's going what's working and what's not. I mean, you yeah. You got it's gotta be committed. I agree. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. Luke, it's been absolutely fascinating. You know, I said at the beginning when we're in the green room that about an hour and I'd say, well, what a fantastic conversation. And I was right. It has been amazing. How can people get a hold of you? Sure. So we I guess the Luke Morrisen: best page would be on our our website. So it's www.holistx.io. That's holistx.io. Catch us on LinkedIn. If you're looking for work or struggling with internally for culture, I'm always happy to help and have conversations. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Or if you wanna share your neurodiversity and experience with ADHD, your alcohol, absentee, coffee problems like we have today, reach out to either of us. We're we're both, accomplished experts on, on absence of, of, I don't know, performance performance changing drugs, I guess they are, alcohol and and caffeine. Luke, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Jo. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.