--- title: "Fluency Forward" episode: 131 date: 2024-10-24 guest: "Caroline Praveen" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/131-fluency-forward audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-131/audio.mp3 --- # Fluency Forward Caroline Praveen shares how moving from India to the United States as a child reshaped her confidence, sense of self, and connection to her mother tongue as she learned English. She describes the long, uneven path from feeling like an outsider to becoming fluent, and the unexpected cost of that fluency: struggling to speak her native language and feeling a shift in identity. Joanne and Caroline explore what language barriers really mean in day-to-day life for immigrant and refugee families, including the pressure on children to translate for adults, the added challenge of digital literacy, and the isolation that comes from being cut off from familiar community and culture. Caroline also explains why empathy and patience matter so much when speaking with people who are developing English, and how well-meaning overcompensation can become patronising. The conversation broadens into inclusion, mindset change, and the realities of bias and stereotyping, including the idea of “good immigrants” and how different forms of racism show up. Caroline reflects on working with children who have fled war, the role of local support organisations, and the resilience she sees in families as they rebuild their lives. The episode closes with a call to individual responsibility: small, consistent actions can shift the “ratio” toward a more inclusive society. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Intro and Welcome - 02:00 — Started organisation to help immigrant children's education. - 04:04 — Moved from India, struggled with English transition. - 06:21 — Regained confidence over time, accent changed everything. - 10:52 — Challenges of digital literacy for refugees highlighted. - 15:51 — English complexity vs. learning difficulties for refugees. - 17:14 — Assess fluency by mental arithmetic language choice. - 21:48 — Ethnicity and language can influence career choices. - 23:19 — Struggling students with English from disadvantaged backgrounds. - 27:33 — Overcoming imposter syndrome and limiting beliefs. Trusting oneself. - 30:39 — Cultural learning through media, films, social interaction. - 35:52 — Lack of quality care for people evident. - 37:45 — Empathy important when working with non-native speakers. - 40:40 — Offer help if needed, otherwise be patient. - 44:45 — Globalisation and immigration may lead to unity. - 46:29 — Women want equity now in workplace and world. - 52:26 — Navigating recycling barriers, reluctance to learn new ways. - 53:29 — Understanding others and climate change is crucial. - 56:06 — Expressing deep gratitude, subscribe to Inclusion Bites. - 59:00 — Outro and close ## Key takeaways - The cognitive and emotional impact of learning a non-native language on personal identity. - Challenges faced by immigrants in navigating societal and political landscapes post-immigration. - The plight of disadvantaged immigrant children striving to learn English while adapting to a new culture. - Effective community support strategies for non-native English speakers, emphasising empathy and patience. - The importance of cultural awareness and the struggle to adapt to a new national identity. - Insights into governmental and non-governmental support for refugee and immigrant education. - How individual actions and collective empathy drive real change and promote inclusion. ## FAQs ### How has learning English affected Caroline Praveen's ability to speak her native language? Caroline Praveen discussed how her immersion in English has led to a diminished fluency in her native language, impacting her sense of identity and security. ### What are some challenges immigrants face when thinking and communicating in a non-native language? Immigrants often struggle with thinking in a non-native language, leading to difficulties in communication, which can complicate their ability to navigate societal and political undercurrents in their new country. ### What role does governmental support play in the lives of refugees and immigrants? Governmental support is crucial, but often insufficient, addressing only some challenges faced by non-native English speakers, including language barriers, economic hardship, and access to essential services. ### How do biases and privileges affect the perception of immigrants? Certain ethnicities are perceived as "good immigrants," which carries inherent biases. Racism and privilege are prevalent issues that affect immigrant experiences and opportunities. ### How do language barriers impact disadvantaged immigrant children and their families? Language barriers significantly impact immigrant children, making integration into the educational system challenging. These barriers often force children to become translators for their families, affecting their own educational opportunities and social development. ### What is the Fluency Forward Foundation, and what does it do? Fluency Forward Foundation, founded by Caroline Praveen, focuses on improving English skills and promoting education among immigrant and refugee children in Pittsburgh. It also raises funds to support educational initiatives in rural India. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 131 with the title Fluency Forward, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Caroline Praveen. Caroline is the founder Fluency Forward Foundation, lots of f's in that, that promotes education in underprivileged areas of the world. And when I asked Caroline to describe her superbowl, she said it is her relentless advocacy in her dedication to improving lives and her unwavering commitment to positive change. Hello, Caroline. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jo. It's glad to be Caroline Praveen: here. Excellent. And you've got a lot of f's in Fluency Joanne Lockwood: Forward Foundation, don't you? I do. It's not so fluent. Excellent. So, Caroline, tell me more about fluency forward and what that means to you. Yeah. So that's an Caroline Praveen: organization that I started about a year ago just based off of my own experiences and kind of my desire to make a change for the people that I know are experiencing the same thing that I've gone through. And right now, my efforts are kind of twofold. For 1, it focuses on working with local immigrant and refugee refugee children in Pittsburgh. These children are from, like, Afghanistan, Syria, the the Congo, Venezuela. There's so many countries, and they've all come here just looking for a better life, but are currently confined to a more disadvantaged community. And right now, I'm kind of just helping them with their English language skills and also helping them to appreciate their culture while also learning about those of their neighbors. And the other thing that I'm doing is I am raising money to promote education. So one of the more notable things I've done recently is I've hosted this fundraiser where I kind of promoted it as a cultural kind of event, and I had more than 200 attendees. We raised about $4,000. We had 3 sponsoring organizations. We showed up in the news. It was a really great time, and we donated all the profits to another NGO that donates the money to children in rural India. That's fascinating. You said Joanne Lockwood: at the beginning there that, you wanted to help people to overcome some of the challenges you'd faced yourself. Do you wanna talk a bit more more about to the listeners around the challenges, who you are, your background, and some of the the you know, you obviously had to overcome some challenges. So what what those in particular? Yeah. Of course. Caroline Praveen: So I am from India. I was born there, and my parents moved here to the United States with the kind of goal of creating a better life for myself and my brothers in terms of education and just opportunities in general. So we came here when I was pretty young, but I didn't have an amazing grasp of English at all. And once I started going into school, I kinda just shut down. I was pretty much I was a very confident kid in my native language, which is Malayalam, a South Indian language. But once I kind of transitioned to English, I just kind of lost all aspects of my personality and wouldn't ask anyone for help, wouldn't reach out to anyone. And that really affected me not just academically, but socially and internally. So as a kid that can't connect with the classmates sitting right next to her, I really just struggled to kind of like myself and be happy with myself. And I think the biggest issue there is that there was no kind of, like, miracle for that. There was nothing that saved the day and made everyone accept me or made me extremely fluent very fast. It was kind of just I had to deal with it. I had to spend a long time kind of perfecting my English, and from there, it just improved. May I ask what age you moved to the US? I came here so, essentially, I started schooling and started to truly learn English around 5. Around 5. Joanne Lockwood: Okay. Because your accent sounds typically American to me. It it you you obviously acquired English at a very young age. Mhmm. So you're very you're extremely fluent. I guess that comes from living living in the country for a long time now. So you yeah. You you've grown up with it. What what were the biggest challenges you found? I mean, you talked about your your lack of self confidence because you're obviously nervous about pronunciation. You have to double translate in your head. Your whole mind is yep. You can't dedicate your mind to your personality. You have to dedicate your mind to the translation. So how how did that manifest itself? You know, you said you you were you lost confidence. How did you find a way to regain that over that? Caroline Praveen: Yeah. So I mainly lost confidence in a lot of school and just extracurricular settings. I wasn't able to connect with anyone around me, and the way I kind of regained that is really just with time, which is the really unfortunate thing, and that's kind of the reason that I'm doing everything that I can today. Because I, myself, I did have to endure it for several years and until I got this accent that we're talking about right now. And from there, it was kind of a switch, really. It just switched, and I no one was weird to me. No one was kind of disaccepting of me, and it would it just became a lot better. You kinda went Joanne Lockwood: from an outsider with a broken English, non native, if you like, accent, to being an insider where you're fluent and your your American twang, if you like, is the same as everybody else's. Exactly. And that's why Caroline Praveen: kind of on this inside now, I'm really hoping to kind of break that barrier and bring more of those outsiders in without all of those struggles. You you mentioned you're working with people Joanne Lockwood: from across the globe who are are migrating to the US from Afghan to places in Africa. What are the biggest challenges they face? Are they fleeing are they fleeing war zones and discrimination if it could be, or are they voluntarily migrating for better lives? Caroline Praveen: So the majority of the children that I work with are fleeing some kind of war. So a lot of them are from Afghanistan, Syria, and Congo, which are kind of war driven countries right now. So first of all, you have to deal with kind of their traumatic experiences. A lot of them are very young, so it's not debilitating yet. But you have to first address that, and then you also have to address their developing English as well as kind of teaching them to be able to accept other people from other countries. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Because we we assume that all people who migrate or who are minorities are gonna necessarily be friends with all the other people who migrate. Exactly. But they're they're just a stranger to each other as anybody else. So they would have their own biases and and hang ups. Do they do they come with their families, or or many of these come alone? They the Caroline Praveen: most of them that I know do get to come with their families, but they're coming from a very underprivileged background despite having maybe some sort of wealth in their native country, they come here with little to no success, and they're living in more of these desolate places around Pennsylvania. Joanne Lockwood: And I I would assume, therefore, that the family itself are probably not great English speakers. The parents may not have a high high competency in English. So this the people you're working with effectively become the family translators, I guess, and the the family breadwinners in some cases. Yeah. Actually, I remember one of the girls Caroline Praveen: that we kind of talked to every once in a while. She was telling us about how she can't come to our session today because she needs to go to her little sister's doctor appointment. So I was asking her why she would need to go to her sister's doctor appointment and because I wanted her to stay, of course. But she kind of explained that if she wasn't there, even though her English is broken, it is the least broken in her family. And in order for them to have any kind of successful appointment or schedule anything, she needed to be there. Yeah. So that's that's another Joanne Lockwood: burden on a young person when they're trying to develop themselves through their childhood, enjoy, have fun, grow and learn. They have this pressure and burden of supporting the family from a translation point of view. And and if you're in a big family, that could be a lot of people you're responsible for. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. Yeah. I suppose the other side to culture is the modern world is not just spoken language. There's also we're we're very much email, text, WhatsApp, Snapchat, social media, online, IT. You you've gotta be quite tech savvy. I assume that many of the people that come these days maybe don't have advanced technology in the same way that, you know, you have every day in your life now. So you've gotta overcome the the spoken language, but also understand the the nuances of of online communication as well, Emily. Caroline Praveen: Yeah. I think digital literacy is a really big problem that they have to face on top of everything that they're already enduring as, like, as we as a really, like, nation and country and around the world. As we all kind of become more into digital literacy and especially, I think, with the influx of COVID, I think we've all really kind of turned to our devices and really focused on Internet communication. But if you're talking to these refugees who have just left a traumatic environment and are trying to even stay on their feet, digital literacy is not their biggest concern, which makes sense, of course, but it's definitely a disadvantage to them because there are so many opportunities online that they'll just never know about. Yeah. Yes. Interesting. I I suppose Joanne Lockwood: also combined with that, you've got, I'm gonna say I use the word poverty. I don't mean to say people have no money. I'm just trying to say that they may not have money to invest Mhmm. In Internet connectivity and tech. And it's it's they become in a modern world, it can become very isolated if you're not in an online you know, you you can't order food. You can't go to the cinema. All these things are booking online. You need money. Most of it is online cash now or electronic cash. So there's a whole load of literacy you need to develop beyond just the spoken language. And tech can help you, kinda. You've got, yeah, with AI. We talked about Chat GPT before we went live. You can take photographs now and translate menus on you know, Google Translate will take a photograph and live translate. You can live transcribe television or or someone speaking to you. So there's a lot more technology now to help people overcome the short term barrier, but they they probably don't really help if you're trying to learn the language because they almost give you a shortcut rather force you to have to learn the language. Yeah. Absolutely. I Caroline Praveen: think in a way, it can be good that we have these people kind of, like, originally or, like, inherently learning the language. But I also think, like like you said, it's a very isolating feeling to not be able to connect with, for example, a Facebook community of people from your same region natively. And I just think the, like, the isolation both geographically from everyone they've ever known and their isolation digitally, it just piles on. How hard is it to Joanne Lockwood: stay culturally attached? You know, you talked there about the distance between your your family, probably extended family still in India. You wanna keep in touch with grandparents or cousins and other people who are maybe not digitally connected. And this must be really, really hard to keep in touch and share your stories both ways. Yeah. It is. And I think it really does affect the Caroline Praveen: kind of relationships, which is horrible when you think about it. These are, like, my grandparents that I don't get to talk to as often. So when we try to talk to them, first of all, we have to use a different kind of phone service that will go overseas. 2nd of all, the connection is horrible. We're yelling into the phone, getting frustrated, just trying to explain little things that are going on in our lives, and the infrequency of it kind of makes it hard to speak freely. Because if I'm talking about what happened in my day, I have to preface it with, oh, this is this. This is this activity that I'm doing. And I think just the fact that I don't get to see them and all these children don't get to see them is just horrible for the relationships in general. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And, yeah, that must be really tough because where where you're where you're living now, you just FaceTime, you wherever you Google, meet each other, wherever you whatever you do. And you can see each other whenever you need to. And but when you've got a cultural difference in that way, it must be hard. But yeah. So the the people that, you you help, and and that's right from a young age, right from the you know, your sort of age was 4 5, 6 years old all the way through to teenage and young adults, I guess. Yeah. Caroline Praveen: They are of every age I can imagine, really. I think the youngest is probably 2, and I think the oldest is maybe 15. And we're all just kind of congregated in one area. We don't really have the ability to kind of separate based on age or anything. We just try to cater to everyone's needs based off of where they are kind of within their education. People have said to me that English isn't a terribly easy Joanne Lockwood: language to learn for someone who's not a native speaker because you tend to pick up a lot of the complexity of English just by absorbing it and being around people and getting to feel to actually learn it is a is as a as a second, 3rd, or 4th fifth language is extremely difficult. And I've heard people a lot of people say that speaking English is a privilege that shouldn't be underestimated. How did you find it? Yeah. I agree honestly. Like, Caroline Praveen: even in retrospect right now, the way that I'm able to just form sentences and we're having a conversation, certain complexities in it aren't they just aren't there in other languages. A lot more things are straightforward in the different languages that I've learned or maybe these refugees have learned. And just coupling that with an inability to actually learn English with learning a very hard language in itself has to be horrible. I I know myself, and it does help that they're children, so you have that kind of cognitive ability to learn more easily. But then you have to think about the parents, you know, because they're in the same boat, but their brain is 25 years older. Joanne Lockwood: So how do you find yourself now? Are you still translating in your head, or or have you managed to flip the switch where you think in English now? I've managed to flip the Caroline Praveen: switch, fortunately, but it kind of affects me the other way around now. So now when I'm trying to speak in my native language, I have to think in English first, and it's a lot more broken, which is I don't know. It it really affects your kind of security and your own identity because I started off with one language and was really glued to that one, and I use it to communicate with all of my family. But now it's kind of lost. Yeah. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: So I was talking to someone many years ago who was not a native English speaker, and I was asking them they were very, very fluent. I became we we agreed that the best way of telling is if you have to do a a mental arithmetic in your head, do you which which number set do you count in in English or your or your native language? And you have to you have to get to that point where you're so competent and you think your language, you're not translating it. That's a real it's a real must be really tough because I I've never had the need to learn another language in that detail. Yeah. That's honestly true. I remember talking about Caroline Praveen: something like that with my parents who obviously came here around the same time as me. They still do think in our native language, and every time they speak, they do have to translate it. So I'm lucky because I learned English at a young age, so it's kind of hardwired into my brain. But for them, it's just a constant battle trying to communicate with anyone in the workplace, in the grocery store, at the movie, just constantly having to having to translate in their head exactly what they wanna say. Yeah. You probably see them fighting for the words and Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Trying to, yeah, get the sentence structure. Yeah. Yeah. So do you do you have much support in the communities? You say you live in Pittsburgh and you deal with people all over sort of outskirts of Pittsburgh where the properties, I guess, and the environment is cheaper to live, I guess, out of the city. Are there government resources helping people? I mean, I mean, I I guess the immigrants were to come over, and you must come over by some sort of government program. Caroline Praveen: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of these refugees, at least, because they are seeking asylum, they do come through certain governmental organizations, and there are some more in Pittsburgh. There's, for example, there's the Jewish Council, which doesn't necessarily focus on Jewish people, but they focus on immigrants and refugees in general. And I've been able to work with them. They do a a lot, really. They will do everything from enroll your child in kindergarten from help you to kind of file to get your citizenship. And I think without those kind of organizations, which I really hope to get there one day, but they're very funded, very, like, well secure organizations. I think without them, these refugees, these immigrants would actually be lost. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, being a based in the UK, looking at what's going on in the news, the political climate in the US in some areas doesn't appear very welcoming to non native Americans, for want of a better way of describing it, or in in its own right, what is an what is a native American? And we go back 200 years. It's not what we imagine today, is it? It's, the indigenous population of America is completely different to the current population of America. So is it is it tricky to navigate that sort of political societal undercurrent of of of, if you like, of Native American feelings? Yeah. Honestly, it is. I think Caroline Praveen: you make a really good point. We think of what the average American is, and it's not even the original American people. It's not the people from this continent, which says a lot, but I think right now, I at least haven't experienced too many kind of microaggressions or racism in general because, 1, I don't have any kind of prevailing accent, and, 2, I think the the way Asians are treated is a little bit more durable in some ways. I think it's definitely damaging, but I also think that if I were of a different ethnicity, I think my experience would be a lot more difficult. The I'm Joanne Lockwood: gonna phrase it. This is not very polite way of saying it, but you're a good immigrant. People you're you're kind of you're an acceptable view of of an immigrant because your skin is you're you're not you're not black American. You're Asian American, which is a a completely different sort of privilege, if you like. Yeah. It's kind of the Caroline Praveen: different facets of racism in general. You have this, like, good for a lack of a better way to say it, like a good immigrant or someone that is kind of stereotyped for working hard or being in computer science or smelling. Like, those are all very damaging to my identity, but they are not life threatening. So I think I am kind of lucky in that way where you have other people that are accused of so many worse things. Yeah. Because you you said in in the show notes your aspiration is to Joanne Lockwood: be a doctor or or follow a medical career. And your ethnicity gives you a positive bias, because people would expect someone of Indian descent to be a doctor or be in that kind of you you always have that that positive, yeah, so the positive bias, you know, help you help you in that that respect, I guess, and and your, I would say, perfect English with a with an American accent is is also gonna help you. I suppose then you then you end up in this as you I think you you hinted to this this dilemma in your head around your culture versus your your current status and almost having to, I'm not saying, deny who you your your upbringing. But you have to you have to ride the fast train, don't you, if you'd like to take advantage of society? Yeah. I do. I kinda have to override Caroline Praveen: who I was in the beginning in order to be successful here, which it's amazing that I have the opportunity to be here and accomplish so much. I think that I would be nowhere where I am if it were not for the country that I live in. But it's also sad to think that in the process, I've had to kind of give up a part of myself. Yeah. It yeah. It Joanne Lockwood: is. It it's it must be really frustrating. How do because, obviously, we're here, we're talking about you. What's your experience of working with the people you're helping? Do they have similar dilemmas? Are they are they are they are they learning English in the same way you have and developing? Caroline Praveen: Yeah. They I think they're honestly in a worse situation than I am. I was able to learn English through kindergarten and so on, but I had at least some kind of prior knowledge while I was in India because they did teach you a little bit. So although I was really struggling, I wasn't clueless. A lot of these students are completely clueless, but more than that, they come from a more disadvantaged background than I do. So coupled with a worse understanding of English and very limited resources to actually kind of combat that, I just think their experience is even worse, and I I feel absolutely horrible. I'll talk with these children, and they'll just tell me about different things that have been going on in their lives. Like, for example, there's this one boy that always comes as always comes up maybe 15 minutes earlier to help us set up. So he'll carry he's 6 years old. He'll carry around the tables. He'll set up the chairs. He'll put down the snacks. He'll do everything just to help out, but mainly with the intention of being able to talk to me. And I really appreciate that a lot, and I think it's really important to build that kind of rapport with these different students because they have so many things to talk about. And some of them are not so good, and it's good that they kind of have an outlet to talk to. Yeah. Because you you see a lot of this on Joanne Lockwood: the news, and it I I don't pretend to have an understanding of how the everyday true lives of what's going on, just the news versions. But someone like Afghanistan, Taliban, how it's unsafe to be a a a young woman or or even a woman of any age and also a young child, you know, young adult in a in a country that is so dominated by a religion that prevents anybody but men really having any success or privilege in life. It must be really tough to live in that environment. Caroline Praveen: Yeah. And it has to be worse, really, kind of moving here and seeing that switch. I mean, it's freeing in a way, but, like, for example, the Afghanistan to Afghan children that I'm dealing with, the woman, for example, they don't even believe themselves that they have the right to the education that I provide or the conversations that we have as a group. Yeah. It it it reminds Joanne Lockwood: me in some respect around the book, Handmaid's Tale or the film, The Handmaid's Tale. You get so indoctrinated around the parameters of your life. You could become socialized into this very narrow view of who you can be. And then coming to America where, basically, yeah, the American dream is you can be who you wanna be provided you fit in my box. Yeah. It's it's far more empowering than it is maybe coming from somebody's country. Yeah. And I think it's kind Caroline Praveen: of debilitating in a way to start from this horrible place of origin and come here. You have all these opportunities, but you don't even believe in yourself, really, that you deserve them or that you have the capacity to achieve anything. Within the communities you're you're Joanne Lockwood: helping, is there visible role models? Are are you are you able to show people succeeding in the environment in a bit? Yeah. I I I don't know Pittsburgh specifically or the environment. I I guess it's majority. Is it a white or a black kind of area? Is it? It is. I would say Caroline Praveen: it's a majority white area, but I would say that the kind of, like, dispersion of minorities is not lacking in any way. So it is nice to see certain kind of role models within just the sessions that we hold. So, for example, there's this one girl who was a little bit older than most of them from I think she's from the Congo or she's from Ghana. I couldn't tell you. But she has learned a lot. She's very she's very smart, naturally. So she's learned a lot from what we've talked about. And because she's gone through so much herself and she has that kind of sympathy, she does go out of her way to help everyone else that's kind of struggling. So in a way, I see myself in her. Yeah. Could we talk you know, I I talk Joanne Lockwood: to a lot of people around, yeah, limiting beliefs in imposter syndrome, And and this must have nothing compared with the limiting beliefs in imposter syndrome you and other people you're working with have faced. It's hard to I mean, I know how how hard it is to overcome my imposter syndrome about a number of things. It must be really hard to find that belief because you have to you have to kind of trust yourself, believe in yourself before anyone else will believe in you. Because it's it's it's really tough. And if you've if you've got no anchor point of success or you're you you can't even can't even leverage success of your family because your family are potentially worse off than you. So you've got no history. You've got no second generation or third generation or grandparents or people in this country that you can kinda call on. You you almost you really are starting from scratch, aren't you? Caroline Praveen: Yeah. And another way that kind of affects everything comes to schooling and kind of the college application system and high school application system. Because, for example, I'm first generation in the United States. I know hardly nothing about the process of applying to college because I'm doing that right now. So we find ourselves asking We're lucky to have a community. We're we find ourselves asking older people, how does financial aid work? How many colleges can I apply to through the common application? Concept of having this community. I have a community to talk to about these kind of concerns, but these children don't necessarily have anyone that they can identify with. Yeah. The Joanne Lockwood: only relatable experience I could use for my own life is I'm of a generation where my parents and my wife's parents are are elderly now. We're going through the process of sorting out care, nursing homes, end of life, and it's completely a territory that I've I've got no experience in. And the people I'm of the similar sort of age haven't been through it either because their parents are probably maybe a little bit younger or haven't got to that point yet. So it is really hard navigating something where you have you've got no nothing to hang your hat on if you like, nothing to anchor on, and you have to pick up as you go along. So it must be hugely challenging, let's say, for you and the others. You're helping to get that cultural awareness. That's kind of what it is really, isn't it? It's the cultural awareness. The the stuff that people just know. Yeah. I feel like there's some things that Caroline Praveen: no matter what, you just you can't teach in a way, which is horrible when you think about it, but it stems under the same problem that I dealt with. Once you're here long enough and you're kind of immersed long enough, you do have to deal with the issues for several years before not only that you learn English, but you pick up on all little subtleties. You pick up on the sarcasm, the idioms, the even the way we form sentences in the slang. Yeah. A lot of it is Joanne Lockwood: culture based around television, films, media, as you say, casual social interaction at schools and colleges, wherever. You just kind of pick it up, don't you? You kind of know. I mean, if if I was 17 years old again living in the US, I'd have no idea about sororities, varsity, you know, college etiquette, you know, all this kind of only what I see on the films, and I can't that's because that's completely detached to my view of my upbringing in schooling. You know, I even I can't even relate to the curriculum and the school structures of people in the UK because I'm 40 plus years out of school. So, yeah, it's, I guess I could see the challenge there of trying to create a relatable identity with with the culture you're trying to live in. When you ask someone to explain it, they go, but it just is because you kinda know it. You just it just is. You you never thought about having to explain what that meant to somebody because it you don't have an explanation. It's just something that exists. Exactly. You don't know why is there? Yeah. And I Caroline Praveen: I think I'm lucky in a way to kind of know all of this now, but like you said, there's some things that I just never even think about to talk about. And I think that just kind of stems from the kind of, like, national identity that I've had to kind of put myself into, like we said, become an I insider. As an outsider, it's hard to see anything about that national identity and pick up on the little cues like the etiquette, for example. Joanne Lockwood: So we we live in a a global economy now. We we travel, we communicate online. The world has kind of shrunk a lot in the last 10, 15 years. COVID probably helped to shrink even further. We can now communicate by default with anybody anywhere in the world that has the right to end up. But there's a feeling the world is effectively becoming more divided. We're becoming more parochial, more kind of protectionist, more isolated in our cultures, and more fearful of of of outsiders. So how how can we think about becoming more connected in this global work global world and, relating to different people's experiences better? Yeah. I think you're Caroline Praveen: you're absolutely right. I think the more that we become connected as a world in general, it's just more and more opportunities for this kind of conflict. The closer you put people of different mindset and different background and of varying levels of stubbornness, the more you see this conflict and everything kind of blow up. I think the way to kind of combat that really has to be to target everyone's underlying mindset. The only reason that you see certain policies or certain acts of discrimination from organizations or even governments in general always stems down to someone's mindset or several people's mindset, which is a very hard thing to change. I think it's very difficult to tell someone, hey. What you're thinking is wrong. It's discriminatory, and it needs to change. It's kind of accusing in a way. And I think especially in America, to be told that what you are thinking is wrong is a very hard battle. And just once there's a way to kind of symbiotically repair that kind of mindset within a lot, a lot a lot of people, you can start to see some kind of change. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I I often say that you can't confront privilege head on and because what happens, people with privilege will just recoil. They'll get defensive. They'll shut down, dismissive, or start using water boundary and and, and just denying people's experience. So it's it's it's exhausting sometimes to have to do the education, the constant reminders, the subtle. Remembering to be quietish and not not too loud, because if you if you're too loud, people will react badly. And so it's a real struggle trying to get your voice heard and and to get change out of it, isn't it? Caroline Praveen: Yeah. Absolutely. But you want to be a I think you said in the show Joanne Lockwood: notes you want to be you want to be a doctor. So what sort of medicine do you wanna study? I honestly don't know what kind of Caroline Praveen: medicine I wanna study. I think once I go to medical school, experience a pain in medical school medical school, first of all, but also go through the rotations and kinda just get a better understanding of what I'm dealing with, I would have a better understanding of what kind of field of medicine I'd wanna go into. I just know in general that I do want to go into medicine because I always have, but recently also as I've begun this work to combat the health disparities that I've been seeing. That's interesting. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Health disparities. Yeah. Because, again, privilege does lead to disparities in in in medication, education, and sanitization in the communities we live in. We saw it in COVID as well. So what what sort of health inequities have you come across so far? Caroline Praveen: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that I've seen firsthand with the people that I'm working with has to be the lack of quality care for people from a socio socioeconomic background. For example, one of the boys that comes to our sessions, he is actually the same student that will help us come set up in the morning. He one day, he came up to me, and we were just talking as normal. I handed him a table, I think, to set up because he's kind of accustomed to that. But he kinda just looked up at me and kind of shook his head no in a way that kinda contradicted his general demeanor. He's a very lighthearted kind of character I've seen, and I knew something was wrong. I just didn't know that I'd see a ginormous abscess on his arm and another one on his teeth. And it just comes from the lack of access to health care in general, the lack of access to hygiene. Yes. That that's Joanne Lockwood: another another factor as well, isn't it? And health care in the US isn't cheap either, or so? No. Not at all. It it Caroline Praveen: fully depends on what kind of the health care plan that you have and the insurance that you have, but it's very hard to get an insurance plan if you don't have an established credit score, you don't have an established source of income. No. As I mentioned, I'm a Joanne Lockwood: a native English speaker. I've I've spoken English all my life. The only language apart from a bit of French and a bit of German and Spanish when on holiday. What how would you kind of advise me to create environments where people have we call use the expression broken English or English developing English where they're they're they're not as competent and confident in it? How can I best help somebody without without putting too much pressure on them? What what sort of techniques would you use? Yeah. I think that's a really good question, and Caroline Praveen: that's something I've thought about a long time, kind of bringing these native English speakers into the sphere of work I'm doing and just instilling a sense of empathy. I think, first of all, it does relate to empathy, which I can tell you have, which is great to start off with. But I think just, like, in an actual environment when you're dealing with someone who is kind of struggling to form their words, the biggest thing is not to be kind of demeaning in the way that you deal about it. A lot of people, they are trying their best, but if you're talking to a 30 year old male and speaking to them like a child, their ego will be hurt. You have to kind of consider the fact that even though they aren't able to express themselves like a fully developed adult, they are a fully developed adult with the same thoughts and same feelings that you might have just in a different language. So I think the biggest thing is not to kind of act like their children. Talk like talk in a very kind of demeaning way and just enunciate very slowly and put on this kind of baby voice. I think that's the most damaging thing someone can do. I think it's more important to just take your time. Let them have their time, not really show any kind of judgment, but also not try to be so overinclusive that it just becomes kind of humiliating. There's a huge difference between how Joanne Lockwood: people can express and talk than how they listen and understand, isn't it? There's a huge huge gap there. So what you're saying there is if I try and overcompensate to help them, it's patronizing, it's unhelpful because they're used to listening to people speaking English on television, shops, and. The fact they haven't mastered the skill themselves to speak it doesn't mean that they can't understand. Is that is that what you're saying? Yeah. Exactly. Caroline Praveen: And it also goes back to kind of their field of expertise if they do have a job. So I've talked to a couple people that are in the field of science as immigrants and refugees. They have such an amazing understanding of what they're doing, and they can communicate that really well in English better than you and I could probably. But once they start to talk about something that doesn't relate to work jargon or just, like, in general, you really see that switch in the capacity of their English. I think what what you're saying there is don't use childlike language. Joanne Lockwood: Don't overpronunciate. Don't don't be deliberately kind of assuming that they don't understand. Speak calmly slowly, but not overly slowly. Give the person time to respond. And if they are struggling with their words when they're trying to speak back to you, do you allow them to to continue to offer help or suggest a word or wait for them to give you a cue? Caroline Praveen: Usually, I think they'll give you some kind of cue if they've thought about what word they're looking for for a long time and they just haven't gotten anything, they'll kind of look to you. And I think I think you'll be able to tell. At that point, yeah, it's fine to help them out and just kind of offer different things that you might think they're looking for. But, otherwise, I think the best thing is to let them take their time. They know what they want to say. They just don't have the words to form it, and that's a very difficult thing to deal with. So I think being patient and just taking the time to let them do their thing is it really does a lot for them. Yeah. Because many many people will start by Joanne Lockwood: apologizing that their English isn't very good. And I'm thinking, well, my my Spanish or my German, my French, or my my whatever language you said at the beginning you speak, my my mine is nonexistent. You know, yours is your English is far better than my my my interpretation of your language. So, yeah, it's but I I suppose that's the human nature. You want you want to be better, and therefore you you tend to apologize. But I I think we need to encourage people to to not apologize, be proud that they're actually succeeding in in communicating, and and I shouldn't judge them for that. Caroline Praveen: Exactly. And I feel bad because some of these people will apologize for their kind of broken English, but then they'll talk to you with everything being understandable. It's just slight differences in the grammar or the pronunciation, but they're still speaking in a way where you understand everything they're talking about. Yeah. And I think we can be quite bad at active Joanne Lockwood: listening, can't we, as as a as a human species? So I think it's also incumbent upon me as the listener to actually give that person attention, give them eye contact, smile, encourage them, show understanding, and say, actually, I missed that. Can you you did you mean this? So you can always repeat. And they go, yeah. That's exactly what I said. And, yeah, I I think it's just it's it's it's good communication as well, but we get quite lazy. Caroline Praveen: Yeah. Assuming people understand each other, it's like, it's Joanne Lockwood: too difficult for me. Again, perfect. We're just pushing it back, aren't we, and putting the burden. It must be quite inspiring for you to see people who are coming together in the community you help from different backgrounds, different native languages, all speaking, communicating in English, and growing in the culture that in Pittsburgh in America and starting to become part of the new America, if you like, and growing into that must be really, really inspiring for you. Yeah. It makes me feel like Caroline Praveen: I've actually accomplished something, and I'm actually making a difference in, essentially, the lives of the children that I was just maybe 10 years ago. So I think that I'm really grateful when I see these kind of children developing that I've leveraged my own experiences and my own struggles to take the burden off of someone else. And it's as you're saying, it's not just the children. Joanne Lockwood: It's their entire families. And Right. The next generation. So you you're you you are you are building a new life for these people through or enabling their new life through what you're doing for them. Yeah. And a lot of these people Caroline Praveen: have been almost eternally grateful to me and the people that I work with that have helped them. Like, the parents, for example, they I am a teenage girl, but they are so indebted to me and the work that I've done for them. They regard me as someone that they can go to for advice and for consolation, and I'm really happy to be that outlet or that source of comfort for someone that's not even my own age. Yeah. Where's the world going, do you think? Are we gonna become more Joanne Lockwood: united, or are we gonna end up in more division for a while? Caroline Praveen: Honestly, I want to say that we'll come will become more united, but I think the way things that are the way things are looking right now, at least, it's not looking very promising. I think the more that nations get into contact with each other or the more that globalization becomes more prevalent and you see this influx of immigration, it's always been a kind of negative reaction. But I think that with time and just getting used to it at least, I think that it can become a more inclusive environment. It's just right now with, for example, all of the different racial protests that have been going on in the United States for the past couple years during COVID and I think a little bit after that. I think the United States and a lot of other countries that accept a lot of refugees or people seeking asylum are in a really tense kind of state because they have to consider themselves as a nation, but also consider these people that are just looking to better themselves. So is it similar of an environment in the UK, would you think? I'm Joanne Lockwood: probably not best placed to be an authority on that. But, yeah, I I guess what happens is you end up with something happens and then there's acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, And then you get to a point where the incumbent people push back saying the the minority is getting too much time now. They're getting too much attention, getting too much investment. What about me? Then I think it's pulled back a bit, and then you have to grow back again. So it's almost like a step. You go forward a bit, back a little bit, forward a bit, back a little bit. And I think and that's frustrating. You know, you don't wanna wait 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. I mean, women as a woman, I don't wanna wait 70 years for equity in in a workplace or equity in the world. As a minority, you you want you want you want a voice now, and it I think whatever we do, we'll never be quick enough for for people who are marginalized or voiceless or unheard, And it'll always be too quick for people who have the privilege or or or don't embrace change. And I think it's trying to find the right speed where we alleviate frustration, and we also prevent people becoming threatened and feeling challenged. But I I'd like to think, I'm I'm assuming your your your generation, Gen z, you're that young. We're seeing an emerging generation now where inclusion is more default. I I don't wanna generalize. I appreciate it. Not everybody has that view. But whether it's your sexuality, your gender, your ethnicity, your beliefs, whatever they may be, people, in my opinion, seem, as a Gen Z, more open to that that kind of natural state. So maybe we need your children to be the 1st generation of people who grow up in a world where change has already occurred. You're you're you're still in a environment where you're wanting change to occur. Hopefully, your generation can can create that change that the next generation, the gen gen alphas and the gen betas will face when they come through. Yeah. I agree. I think the environment that Caroline Praveen: a lot of people in gen z have been raised in has been more inclusive inherently, and that's been amazing, really. I think I think that's absolutely true. The way that people in gen z kind of view for example, mental health, They actually view that as a valid concern. They prioritize that in a lot of instances, whereas someone that's older and maybe more close minded might not actually think of that because that wasn't really a prevailing issue or a topic of conversation when they were growing up. So I would fully agree. I think as we grow as a generation and then the generation after us also grows in this more inclusive environment, there will definitely more be more room for inclusive inclusivity. Yeah. Let's let's hope and, Joanne Lockwood: and, well, pray that I I often say that is a I don't know if you've ever seen the video. It's by Accenture, and it's called inclusion starts with I. If not, check it on YouTube. And, one of the messages that comes out of that for me is that inclusion starts with me, with I. And you may not be able to change the world on your own. You may not be able to influence everybody. But as it says, you could be the one. You can take responsibility for changing who you are, for how you show up, how you communicate, how you're inclusive, the empathy you show for others, and hopefully you could become an influence on those around you. So I would think, you know, change yourself. Be the person that can that brings that change. Be the person that, can influence, and keep keep holding the rope. You haven't gotta you haven't gotta pull the rope. Just hold it. Just just hold the rope as an ally, as an advocate, whatever it may be, and and just keep nudging the world and keep nudging it. I think if we all did that slowly, then that would would spread like COVID. It would affect everybody. That's what we want. We're gonna want we want this modern thinking to be a better of a world to be a better place, and it's not all capitalism and and exclusion. So I find that happy harmony, isn't it? Caroline Praveen: Exactly. Yeah. It always does just go back to our individual mindsets and just the belief that in order for change to be incited, that everyone has to do something simultaneously, which is just not at all true, but that's a belief that I know a lot of people hold. You're absolutely right. As long as you are doing something to impact the way that you're acting and just influence your mindset, your kind of discriminatory kind of, like, background or any kind of beliefs that you might have personally, you are making a substantial difference in the environment for these people that are looking for some kind of inclusion. The planet's a big deal at the moment, Joanne Lockwood: isn't it, as well? It's not just the people. It's the planet. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The world, the climate, the sustainability. And again, you look at what's going on in some of the developed come well, as a whole or developed countries. What does that mean? The polluting countries or the the the countries the industrial nations that are polluting. And we're seeing India, China, Russia, Soviet, even the US now Mhmm. Ignoring climate change targets. We're seeing world temperatures rise. We're seeing a pushback on belief that the climate's an issue. And I'm I'm great I'm very mindful that I'm talking to you as a as a young person. This is your planet, and it must be extremely frustrating to see what what my generation before have done to it. And, we're not leaving it at the best place, are we? Exactly. I think it kinda Caroline Praveen: goes back to that kind of stubbornness that a lot of people have. Even as a nation, kind of denying the existence or the prevalence of this climate change and the effect that pollution is having on the environment just because it benefits them as a nation in terms of profit or appearance in general. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. As you was talking then, I was just thinking that, in the same way you you and people in your community have had to travel the world to come and find a new home in America and the US and then learn about the cultural differences and the language, all this. I'm in the same position as a a a a Gen x person to learning about the modern culture of climate and land planet protection. I don't know the lingo. I don't know how it works. You know? Yes. I'm thinking about electric cars. I'm thinking about renewables. I I have to I have to think twice about, can I recycle this? You probably just pick up and go stick it in the green one. It's fine. Stick it in the brown one. And I'm trying to look at the packaging. I'm still trying to interpret because I'm not a native climate person, so I have to translate my interpretation of this as well. So that that gives I suppose that gives me a perspective of what it's like having to relearn the environment I live in, and that's maybe that's the barrier that people are reluctant to to relearn, to to pick up the new lingo, to pick up the new culture, to pick up the new understanding. They're so fixed in their mindset. They're sticking with what they know. And I think you and your communities that you're working with have had change as part of your lives inherently for as long as you can remember. And maybe one day you'll become ingrained in 20 or 30 years' time, And and then the next generation, the gen c's or gen f's or whatever they will be, will come along and go, god, you're you're stuck in old ways of thinking. Okay. Hang on a minute. How did I get old? How did I forget? Yeah. It Caroline Praveen: definitely is kind of cyclical in a way. But like you said, like, you're able to relate it to the concept of climate change and kind of imagining the kind of issue that other people deal with, I think it always just goes back to the concept of sympathy. A lot of people, regardless of what generation they're in or what age they are, some people do have sympathy, some people don't. And you still see this within my generation. So I think as long as the almost like the ratio of the amount of people that are willing to understand what's going on in the world, how the world is changing, and not just stick to their mindset and their point of view, I think that we're on a good track. I like that. It's it's the ratio. So Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Taking my be the one saying, it's about tipping the ratio, isn't it? It's about Yeah. Keep nudging it, and eventually the scales will tip. That's what we're looking for here, isn't it? Exactly. Caroline Praveen: 1 by 1. Focus on the ratio. 1 at a time. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: No. I like that. It's really good. Caroline, it's been a fascinating conversation. I've loved chatting to you. And, without I I don't wanna be patronizing, but you you you tracked me down. You Googled me. You found me. You applied, and now you're here. I think it's amazing. You know, as a young person, you've got such a great command of of English with your accent. You've obviously achieved a lot. You're doing a lot in your communities, and I've got so much hope for you and desires for you to succeed in whatever you choose to do, whether it's in medicine or or carrying on in what you're doing now. You're gonna be incredible, and and I I wish you every success. So how could people get a hold of you? They the biggest thing that they can do is visit Caroline Praveen: my website, the fluency forward foundation dot org, where I have a lot of opportunities for online volunteering or actually in person sessions that I con I conduct with these immigrants and refugees. And the other thing that anyone can do really is reach out on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn is just my name, Caroline Praveen. And I've received a lot of kind of business inquiry inquiries that way. And just being able to have that kind of conversation 1 on 1 with anyone about the kind of work that I'm doing and the kind of work that they want to be involved in has been life changing for a lot of people that I've talked to. Alright. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and for being so open minded to kind of understanding the plight of someone completely different from you. I think it's people like you that are actually helping to make this positive change that I'm so desperately working towards. Thank you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to joe.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.