--- title: "From Tech To D&I Transformation" episode: 130 date: 2024-10-17 guest: "Toby Mildon" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/130-from-tech-to-dandi-transformation audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-130/audio.mp3 --- # From Tech To D&I Transformation Joanne Lockwood is joined by workplace inclusion specialist Toby Mildon to explore his path from technology transformation into equality, diversity and inclusion work, and what it takes to make EDI feel practical rather than intimidating. They unpack why so many leaders feel anxious about “getting it wrong”, how that fear can create inaction, and what helps: clearer organisational purpose, emotional connection to the “why”, and a focus on behaviour change over simply knowing the right facts. Along the way they challenge siloed approaches to diversity, discuss bias and representation, and reflect on how privilege and the myth of meritocracy show up in workplaces and wider society. The conversation moves into what effective, measurable inclusion looks like in practice. Toby shares how organisations can connect inclusion to commercial outcomes such as retention and attrition costs, and why culture, psychological safety and a credible employee value proposition matter more than surface-level perks. They close by looking at shifting expectations of work and values alignment, and what inclusive culture needs to deliver for people to feel safe, respected and able to belong. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Feedback shows we demystify EDI for clients. - 03:52 — Pivoted career to address gender imbalance in tech. - 08:56 — Diversity iceberg: visible and hidden characteristics. - 12:08 — Unconscious biases from lack of disabled representation. - 15:39 — Pushback due to threat, focus on equity. - 17:31 — Meritocracy is often misunderstood, creating privilege divides. - 22:47 — Fear of getting it wrong affects reputation. - 25:37 — Change requires inside-out and outside-in pressure. - 30:56 — Fintech grows by diverse user base understanding. - 32:42 — Gender epiphany shifted worldview; embracing change, action. - 36:08 — Gender parity challenges businesses to prove benefits. - 38:57 — Algorithm predicts �30k investment will save �1.5m. - 44:50 — Awareness of feeling unsafe; impact of political rhetoric. - 48:21 — Diversity fuels innovation for better economic growth. - 50:20 — Younger workers seek flexible, ethical career options. - 53:35 — Joanne Lockwood promises enriching, inspiring narratives return. ## Key takeaways - The necessity of a significant event to raise awareness for diversity and health issues and inspire meaningful action. - The struggle of connecting with and effectively communicating the emotional "why" behind diversity and inclusion initiatives. - The challenge of tracking return on investment (ROI) in diversity and inclusion efforts and the importance of speaking the language of business. - The significance of retention and creating a positive work culture, beyond superficial perks. - The importance of addressing root causes such as relationships with managers and workload for fostering inclusivity. - The impact of political rhetoric on marginalised individuals and the need for a safe and supportive corporate environment. - The role of privilege in addressing systemic inequalities and the necessity for allies to drive change from within. ## FAQs ### What is the significance of understanding the emotional "why" in diversity and inclusion (D&I)? Understanding the emotional "why" behind actions in diversity and inclusion is crucial because it connects individuals to the underlying motivations and values driving their commitment. This alignment ensures that efforts are genuine and impactful, rather than superficial or tokenistic. ### How does the return on investment (ROI) apply to diversity and inclusion efforts? Assessing ROI in D&I involves evaluating the financial and cultural benefits that come from implementing inclusive practices. This includes reducing employee attrition, enhancing workplace morale, and fostering innovation. Commercial skills are essential in HR to articulate the business case for D&I and to demonstrate the tangible benefits of investing in an inclusive environment. ### What are the three levels on which the employee value proposition (EVP) and employer brand are built? The EVP and employer brand are built on three levels: ### How do Hertzberg's 2 Factor Theory and Maslow's hierarchy relate to workplace culture? Hertzberg's 2 Factor Theory and Maslow's hierarchy highlight the importance of distinguishing between basic needs (hygiene factors) and motivating factors. Addressing basic needs such as job security and fair treatment prevents dissatisfaction, while focusing on motivation factors such as recognition and career growth promotes job satisfaction and engagement. ### How does negative political rhetoric impact diversity and inclusion in the workplace? Negative political rhetoric can create an atmosphere of exclusion and fear, impacting marginalised individuals and eroding the sense of safety and belonging in the workplace. It's crucial for organisations to promote inclusivity and support to counteract such external influences. ### What is the myth of meritocracy, and how does it affect diversity efforts? The myth of meritocracy is the belief that success is solely based on individual effort and merit, disregarding systemic barriers and privileges that affect people's opportunities. In reality, not everyone in an organisation has the same access to resources and opportunities, which can perpetuate inequality. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights while you join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 130 with the title, from tech to d and I transformation. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Toby Mildon. Toby is a workplace inclusion specialist. And when I asked Toby to describe his superpower, he said that he takes the scariness out of EDI and makes it practical and easy to implement. Hello, Toby. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Thanks Toby Mildon: for inviting me along. It's lovely to be with you today. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: We met. I think we met many years ago at the National Cybersecurity Centre near Victoria in London, didn't we? No. I think that's first time we actually met in person. Yeah. It was donkeys years ago, Toby Mildon: and then I think I realized that we we're also both fellows of the Royal Society of Arts, so I spotted you on their website or that, you know, they've got a database don't they of of Yeah. Fellows and, yeah, and then we I know that we've had several cups of tea at RSA House in London. We have. Yeah. We have. That was Joanne Lockwood: PC, wasn't it? Pre COVID, So back in the old days. That that was Toby Mildon: pre COVID when it was perfectly acceptable to meet somebody for a cup of coffee. Yeah. It was. Now we Yeah. Now we have to socially distance Joanne Lockwood: all. We do it online or do it on Zoom. Yeah. So, Toby, tech to DNI transformation. Tell me more about what you do and how you take the scariness out of EDI. Yeah. So Toby Mildon: that scariness out of EDI actually was some feedback that we received recently from 1 of our clients. They said that we we take a lot of the the anxiety and the fear out of talking about EDI, which we see a lot with senior leaders and businesses. They're they're they're worried about saying the wrong thing, causing offense, causing embarrassment. They're concerned about a cancel culture, particularly if they're a senior leader where they where they have got status in the organization. But in terms of tech to DNI transformation, I think it's based on my personal experience, which is similar to yours, really, and that when I left university, I spent the first half of my career working in technology and working on tech transformation projects. So I was an IT consultant for Accenture. I then moved into health care technology, implementing software into hospitals, and ended up at the BBC as a technical project manager on the redevelopment of the news website, the development of what is now the BBC Sounds app, and lots of accessibility projects. And then I pivoted my career when I was at the BBC. I mean, between you and me, I was I was getting a bit bored working on websites and apps, and I used to work really closely with the management team of our of our technology and engineering department. And they were concerned at the time about the gender imbalance that that we had in tech compared to the rest of the BBC where there was a a bit more of an even gender split. And they created a plan to get more women into technology, initially, and they needed a project manager to run that plan. And I put my hand up and volunteered to do that. It started off as a part time job, 1 day a week, and then I quickly realized it was actually a full time occupation. There were some really valuable lessons. I I quickly learned that diversity was was much bigger than women in engineering, that there are many other aspects to diversity that needed addressing in the corporation. And, yeah, and so that that's how my transition happened. Yeah. I I Joanne Lockwood: had a similar epiphany. I think when I started doing this work around EDI, I thought it was all about me when I started, all about this 1 sort of micro bit, and then you realize it's actually about everybody. And I was the phrase I always say is if everybody can succeed, everybody is welcome, everyone can thrive, I'm part of everybody. So that benefits me and people and all people. And we don't need to narrow it down just to 1 specific strand or thread or characteristic, and it's important to create the culture where everyone can succeed, isn't it? Yeah. I think a lot Toby Mildon: of organizations, though, begin with those single strands, unfortunately. It's 1 of the misconceptions that I think you and I need to bust in the work that we do. There's there seems to be this kind of siloed thinking or certainly a hierarchical approach to EDI. So a lot of organizations say, yeah. We've got an EDI strategy. Our focus right now is on gender or even they might even say, well, it's women in technology or or women on boards. You know, they they really narrow it down, and and next quarter, we'll be focusing on people of an ethnic minority background. And then the year after next, we're going to save the whales, and then we may eventually get around to disability. We're not sure yet because we we're not sure that disability is a priority. So we have those kinds of conversations. And like you say, actually, inclusion is is a lot more holistic because we are all diverse. We're we're we're based in the UK. We live in a very diverse country. Diversity exists on our doorstep. It's a conscious act about whether or not we allow that diversity into our organizations. And so, therefore, like, the work the conversations that I like to have with my clients is how can we shift towards making sure that we're creating equity? Because once we've created that equity, then we can make sure that we've got a quality of opportunity. Then we can focus on building that culture of respect, inclusion, and belonging. And at that point, we're going to be in a much better position to attract, recruit, and retain diverse talent in the organization, which is the ultimate goal for many organizations. Yeah. I think part of the problem Joanne Lockwood: sometimes is we're we're using our own biases and stereotypes and perceptions of people or individuals to make an assumption around their challenge. Yeah. People maybe look at me and my particular identity and characteristic and make an assumption as to what what matters to me or what I think is important. I'm sure you get faced with people who look at you and say, I think I know what Toby's challenges are. But really beneath the surface, our challenges are subtly different than what people expect, aren't they? Definitely. Toby Mildon: I mean, people people look at me with a physical disability using an electric wheelchair, and, yeah, you're right. They make all sorts of assumptions. 1 1 of my diversity heroes is Verna Myers. She was 1 of the her books was 1 of the first books that I read when I was entering the EDI space, and she so and if anyone doesn't know Werner, she's an American lawyer by background. She was until recently head of diversity inclusion at Netflix. She's done a couple of really good TED Talks. 1 of her TED Talks is called Leaning Into Our Biases, and in that, she says that our biases are the stories that we make up about people before we get to know them. And I just I I love using that definition with clients because it's just so easy to understand. And what she's getting at is that you're right. It's these the stereotypes, the assumptions, or the presumptions that people make about you on the surface without really getting to know who you really are. Yeah. I'd say 1 of the biggest terms I have Joanne Lockwood: is being left handed. You know, that excludes me for far more in life than being trans, you know, being left handed. You know? Yeah. I often talk about it. You know? You can't see that in me, but yet it's been a barrier all of my life. Yeah. I've had to adapt and overcome by being kind of ambidextrous. Yeah. I like that left handed Toby Mildon: example because 1 of the metaphor is it a metaphor that I use? It's the diversity iceberg. So you can see 10% of the iceberg poking above the waterline and the these are all visible characteristics. But 90% of the iceberg is hidden beneath the waterline, and these are our kind of invisible, non apparent characteristics, and often they're not the traditional types of diversity that we might think about. It's other like you say, it's other things like, are you left handed or right handed? The world has been made mostly for right handed people, so there's a bias there in terms of right handedness, but it could all be other things. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Did you grow up in the countryside or in the middle of the city? These you know, all of these things shape our outlook on life, our experiences, and and things like that. Yeah. I think what you've you picked Joanne Lockwood: up on there is if do you fall into the default, yeah, in people's blinkers, in people's mindsets? You know? I'm in a arguably, a same sex relationship. It's almost impossible to find mainstream greetings cards from Sainsbury's or, you know, Clinton's or something like that. You walk in and say, I wanna find a a card for my wife on Valentine's or for her birthday. And it's all cishetronormative imagery. I've got a friend who is is black, and he finds it extremely difficult to find Christmas cards or greetings cards with black representation on it. It's all white imagery, and you think it's these little things where you're you don't fit into that default category. And I'm not gonna use the word normal. It's just the default in people's heads that you become unconsciously excluded when people aren't thinking about your need. Yeah. And Toby Mildon: that that those are really good examples of how products have been designed out of bias. So the people that are designing those greeting cards have their own innate biases and they're just not thinking about the diverse representation of characters on greetings cards, and we see it everywhere. We see it in TV programs, film, books. A tiny proportion of children's books include disabled characters or characters who are are not white, basically. And if you're a kid and you're reading these books, it's sending you a message that it is kind of creating the uttering message. It's it's saying you you're different. And yeah. Yeah. And, was it somebody said to me the other day, there's a famous quote, you can't be what you can't see, and that's why it's important that we make sure that we've got diversity in organizations. Because if you, you know, if you if you're aspiring to get to the top of your industry or the top of your company, if you don't have those rumble, you you you can't be what you can't see. Yeah. And that feeds Joanne Lockwood: into sort of like the, the environmental class of microaggression where you don't see yourself represented in the media, in imagery, in the world. Therefore, you're constantly oppressed by being an outsider or other, aren't you? Yeah. And and you start to Toby Mildon: internalize those biases. So when I did my first unconscious bias training when I was working at the BBC as as a participant, not not as a trainer, I I did the Harvard Implicit Association test, and I found out that I was mildly biased against disabled people, which I was shocked about initially. And then when I started looking into why I had this bias, I could understand my own internalised ableism because I've grown up in a world that's been designed largely by non disabled people. As a disabled peers person, I've had to kind of fit into that mold. And growing up, there was just a lack of visible disabled role models in high up in business, in politics, in education, in the film, TV, books that I read. When I worked for the BBC, we we did some research, and we found out that disabled people were more likely to be portrayed as villains, victims, and heroes than non disabled people. So I grew up thinking that disabled people would either become a a Paralympic hero, a James Bond villain because most of them have a disability or or it's some form of disfigurement or a benefit cheat because those were the messages that the British media were putting out into society, and and these messages then enter the back of your brain as this secret silent script, which then influences how you interact with people in adult life. In my case, it it means that I've got this mild bias against disabled people. It's interesting you mentioned James Bond. I I Joanne Lockwood: often use the James Bond analogy in in all my train that I deliver, and it is. You know? We we define James Bond, the character, as good, ideal, protector, white male, straight, womanizer, hero, perfect body figure, and then he's a the baddie always has some kind of disability or facial disfigurement or a foreign accent or what all these stereotypes kick in. This is good. This is bad. And it's no wonder. And then we we did the same with Disney and female and young women portrayal. This is good. This is bad. This is how women behave. This is how men behave. And we get bombarded with this all the time, don't we? Yeah. We Toby Mildon: do. We do. And and it shapes it shapes our biases, and our biases are formed through the cultures that we grow up in the grow up in and the experiences that we have, and it affects us on 3 levels. It affects us in how we think and how we feel and how we act, and it's a lot harder for us to change the way that we think. So our focus really needs to be on how we act and and to change our behaviors to be more We've Joanne Lockwood: seen a a lot. I'd say the last 18 months, I've seen it a lot more. There seems to be this pushback against wokeism for whatever that may mean. Yeah. It's almost like people who have been marginalized for generations have finally started to achieve equity in society, in the workplace, and their lives. And now people are saying, hang on. We've gone too far. What about me? What about what about me, the able-bodied white person? I'm being left behind. Yeah. And Toby Mildon: we're getting this pushback because it's threatening to them. There's a lot of people who think that if they don't tick I'll be quite blunt with you, you know, if they if they don't tick a diversity box or boxes, that they will be at a disadvantage, that somebody will overtake them in their career. That's not what we're trying to accomplish as as, you know, as per as the professionals that you and I are. I think we're we're on a mission to create more equity in society. And what do we mean by equity? It's about seeing the individual, understanding what disadvantages they do have, and trying to close the gap so that we do create that equality. Because we we don't we don't have equality out of the box, unfortunately. You know, we live in a society where there isn't equality, so we need to focus on closing the gap. And that that means starting with equity and giving people the resources and the support that they need to actually help them compete on a level playing field because we we're not competing on a level playing field at the moment. Oh, this is also Joanne Lockwood: this myth of meritocracy, isn't it? And I again, to to quote some government rhetoric, and I've heard it from the the new government before they got in and the old government in the UK. Because we're this episode recorded just just post the general election. Where's this is this belief or that this mantra around they wanna promote and support hardworking family? What is a hardworking family? I mean, we we that that's laser with bias and meritocracy and stereotyping and trying to create pictures in people head of what a not hardworking family is, a family that wants to work, but calm, or whatever it may be. Yeah. So it's meritocracy, belief, and myth is is rampant in all areas of society. It is. It is. And Toby Mildon: there's a lot of organizations that say, well, we have a culture of meritocracy. That kind kind of comment usually comes from the in group or the majority group who do believe that there is meritocracy because their experience is that there's fairness, that there's equality, that the best person gets the job. But what they don't understand or they I I just don't think it's in that kind of sphere of awareness yet. This, you know, this is a lot about the work that you and I do is that there are people in an organization that don't share that same experience, that don't have the same type of privileges that the in group has had, whether that's access to education, speaking English as a first language. There's a whole number of privileges that we hold that that, yeah, that create that. And I think talking about privilege, a lot of people get quite defensive about it as a topic because a lot of people think, well, you know, I had to work really hard to get to where I am now to my position in the company. And thing is nobody's disputing that. You you you did work hard to get to your current position. The thing is there's about it's about having an understanding that not everyone was gifted with certain things in life that helped accelerate that journey. So I'll just give you a personal example. Like, I've got somebody on my team who's got the same disability as me. Thing is I grew up in the UK. He grew up in South Africa. And my privileges are that I grew up in the UK where English is my first language, where I have access to free health care, access to free education. The NHS has saved my life for more than 1 occasion, and the health care that I've received from the NHS has enabled me to go off to university and get good jobs and things like that. Whereas my colleague growing up in South Africa didn't have the same access to education as I had. He didn't have the same level of qualifications, which held him back. It meant that he wasn't able to access employment, didn't have access to the same type of health care as well because they have an insurance system over in South Africa. It's very expensive to have the spinal surgery that that we've both had. So just the very fact that I was born in the UK, which I had no choice over, that was outside of my control, has actually afforded me many advantages that have effectively given me a leg up in life. And that's what we when we talk about privileges privilege, that's what we're really talking about here. It's about the the gifts that you've been given that help you that help give you a leg up. Yeah. I I Joanne Lockwood: often talk about privilege being a bit like a pension fund. The earlier you've paid into it, the more it's worth as you go through life. And your friend, his pension pot didn't start accruing value until maybe his thirties, twenties thirties. Your privilege meant that you were depositing into your pension fund from from year 1. So therefore, no matter how much this person now has some of the privileges of society, you will never catch up or they'll never catch up to you because you paid in 30 years earlier, and you'll you've accrued more privilege as a result of that. Toby Mildon: And I think that's what we've got to remember is that, also, privilege is not Joanne Lockwood: around that you can't succeed. It's just harder to succeed because of and part of your identity or upbringing or characteristic. Yeah. I I'm yeah. I really like the Toby Mildon: way that you put it. If it's okay with you, I'll I'll pinch that and use that with some of the conversations that I have with with companies. Feel Joanne Lockwood: free. No. I I mean, quote me all you like. I'm happy to be quoted. So yeah. But, yeah, it it is. It's it's that's the challenge. I you know, III saw something once at someone else's quirk. I remember who it is now. That when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. And I think that backs up what you were saying where people are so used to breathing in the air around them. They don't see how smoggy it is a mile away or when they're looking down. And I saw another great analogy where it's a it's a it's a if it's a it's a it's a terrain map. People with privilege are on top of the mountain looking down. Everything looks a very short, small distance. When you're at the bottom of the mountain looking up, everything is enormous. The valleys, the the navigation between 2 points is is extreme, whereas you when you're at the top, it looks like 1 step across. So, again, it's your perspective on your environment also. Is is it impacted by by your privilege and and your your your your status in society? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. But you mentioned right at the beginning around this fear of getting it wrong, this saying doing the wrong thing, and it creates this paralysis. And, you know, I when I do surveys in my training and my speaking sessions, 1 of the biggest barriers is the fear of getting it wrong, and you you highlighted there as something you've observed. What what do you think causes the fear, and what do you think we can do to Yeah. Take the scariness out of EDI, if you like? So a lot of the fear Toby Mildon: of getting it wrong is damage to, I think, your reputation, particularly with senior leaders. I've talked to a lot of senior leaders, I think, where they're suffering from imposter syndrome. III was working with a Fintech organization, and we do a lot of EDI surveys, you know, where we go in and we we ask employees how they feel in the business, whether they feel like they're included or and whether they feel like they're included or that they belong or not. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the majority of people in the organization, regardless of identity, said that they felt that they did belong in the in the organization with the exception of LGBT colleagues. And so we we took that that information back to 1 of the company directors, and he said to me, that's really interesting, but but who am I as a straight bloke to be talking about LGBT matters in the in the organization? So he didn't understand his role in it and then after a conversation, he did understand the importance of supporting and being an ally for LGBT stuff even though he didn't identify as being LGBT himself. He, you know, he I think there was a lot of fear about not understanding LGBT matters using the right language or the wrong language, that kind of thing. But after a conversation with us, he did understand the importance because as as a company director, he he's response helping to create the right culture in the business and and and making LGBT staff feel like they they belong. I think also in it's it's recognising how you can Joanne Lockwood: use your privilege, isn't it? And I think that's what people are scared of. The example I always use is the men allowed women to vote, And that sounds quite provocative and offensive if I say that. But that that was a reality in 1918. Men held all the seats in parliament. Yeah. Men were the only people that could vote, and it took an act of parliament by men, okay, with pressure from suffragettes and women's movements to change the law. So privilege has to open the door. So men have to men have to tackle sexism. Able body people have to tackle ableism. Straight people have to tackle homophobia or or or transphobia or biphobia. White people have to solve or tackle racism. So we need the people who hold those privileges to open and to also make the change, don't we? And I think Yeah. But often, I've I've seen situations. I and there's a a person I know who who's a man who talks about menopause. And I've seen people on LinkedIn, on Twitter attack this person saying, well, you're a man. That's that's all women need, a man talking about menopause. It's like, hang on a minute. We need to create awareness for everybody here. Yeah. I think what you're talking about there is, Toby Mildon: is quite important. You need you need people within to enforce change from within, so an inside out approach. That's not gonna happen without outside in pressure. So you were saying about, when women voting, the the outside pressure was coming from suffragettes and, you know, other movements. But like you say, that change would not have happened unless there were people on the inside who were acting as allies or sponsors, advocates of change. And it does sadden me when you've got people on LinkedIn who are advocates. So you've got men, for example, who are raising the conversation about menopause in the workplace, for example, and they are being an ally and they're advocating for for support and change and things like that, and then they're being attacked. That that does sadden me. And it's not it it happens in in all strands. It happens around LGBT rights. It happens around championing disability rights and things like that. That was that I think it was probably 18 months ago or Joanne Lockwood: so, maybe even longer. There was, that incident with ladies and Lady Susan Hussey and that the black charity lady, Ngozi Filani. Lady Susan Hussey was a, I think, part of our Queen's household or something, and she kept asking this Ngozi, where where was she from? Oh, yeah. I remember that. She got berated for it. And I the thing I took away from it was that education should have been the outcome, not public vilification. Yeah. Yeah. My my criticism of the Palace, excuse me, or the firm was they weren't creating the right awareness training. They weren't equipping their representative with the tools, if you like, to converse cultural intelligence, we we would probably call it, wouldn't we, around different people's identities and how to have conversations that aren't necessarily triggering, but also recognizing difference between intent and impact and then being accountable for that. That that's what didn't really occur at the time. It was kind of a powering on in the face of this, discomfort. Toby Mildon: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I I do wonder if we look at something like the royal family and the palace or or the firm as as you put it, I do wonder. They they probably don't approach EDI in the same way that that businesses do. And, yeah, I mean, they they are at the end, you know, they they should operate like a like a business or an organization because they are representing people. They should probably go through the same type of training and and have the same kind of EDI strategies as as you would expect 1 of the FTSE 100 companies to have. Yeah. Because that they Joanne Lockwood: they hold our global reputation in their in the power of their words. And to be charitable, I I'd like to think that the the current king and the slimmed down monarchy or the slimmed down firm, to me, tend to resonate with a more contemporary communication style and openness and inclusion culture that maybe the generations of the past. We we were probably stuck in the Victorian era or the Edwardian era for too long. Yeah. Yeah. But going back to the sort of fear of getting it wrong, so a lot of it is the nervousness of, you know, as being responsible for big organization, knowing full well that someone's gonna lambaste you for those errors. Yeah. I've mentioned the phrase cultural intelligence just now, but you you're probably well aware that that starts with the drive. You know? That kind of I need to find out more. I need to do better. But then how do we get people to to to find that why, to find that drive in the first place? So the the Toby Mildon: why is really important. And to to to borrow the words of Simon Sinek, who wrote the book, start with why. You have to begin with the why. And I think if you're a senior leader, you need to identify 2 whys. There's the why for your business, and then there's your why. And your personal why is what's going to to motivate you. Thinking about the business why, it's very easy for us to kind of go on to Google or chat GBT and type in why is diversity inclusion important to my business or my industry. And you get back the generic responses like, wow. It's good for profitability. It's good for employee engagement. It's good for decision making. It's good for creativity creativity and innovation and all that. And you can go out and you can read the the the 4 I think it's 3 or 4 McKinsey reports now, which are kind of the were worth reading about the business case behind EDI. But you have to translate that into the why for your business. So when I talk to people in health care, very often, the why is about delivering better patient outcomes, a safer health care service, minimizing errors, and things like that. That that's the why for health care, for example. When I worked for a when I worked with a Fintech organisation, their why was to expand their user base, so they primarily worked with entrepreneurs by providing banking services to entrepreneurs, and they they realized that entrepreneurs are a very diverse bunch of people, and they wanted to speak to that audience, and they wanted to grow their their user base. So the why, you have to understand what your why is for your business and then communicate that throughout the business. Equally, you need to understand your personal why. Sometimes this comes naturally to leaders that I talk to. So I talk to loads of leaders who they'll they'll say to me, I'm really interested in inclusion because my my my kid has just come out as, you know, as gay, for example, and they and and now they're they're thinking about how their kid is gonna fit into the workplace culture of the future, or they might say, well, my kid's just been diagnosed with with autism at school, and I'm worried about whether they're going to be able to access employment in the future. So those senior leaders are driven by or motivated by, say, that kind of thing. But in the absence of that, I think it's really important that you identify what your personal why is. It could be a a values based why. It could be a practical why. So yeah. It's almost I'm gonna use the Joanne Lockwood: word sad that you have to have an event that knocks or dents your privilege for you to realize that you had the privilege in the first place, and now you're aware of the needs of others. And Yeah. I say it's sad, but I I've I also had that epiphany myself some 10 years ago when I embarked on my own gender transition. I suddenly got it. The world changed with that 1 act for me. You you were obviously born into your world and have experienced your why, you know, your pension pot of privileges and, all discrimination has been built up for many years. My mine suddenly arrived on my doorstep at the age of 50. And I looked back and thought, wow. 50 years, I haven't cared. And then you just gotta put that shame and guilt away and go, that doesn't help anybody and go, can I do tomorrow? What can I do today? What can I do right now? Yeah. Yeah. It's not until Toby Mildon: something happens that's brings it into our sphere of awareness that we that we take action. I think that that's for anything in life. I think quite often we we sail through life, for example, not thinking about our own health. So we we drink things that we shouldn't be drinking. We eat food that we shouldn't really be eating. We put on weight. We live with that because it's not debilitating. It's not healthy, but it's not debilitating. And then you have a heart attack, and you end up in A and E, and the doctor says, oh, you really should start looking after yourself. You really should start eating healthily, and it takes an event like that to, to knock you, and it it just shifts it from that kind of other than consciousness into your consciousness. Consciousness is where the action happens. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Complete. And that and that's the fundamental reason Joanne Lockwood: why McKinsey stats don't work. Accenture, PwC, whatever stats you Deloitte's, whatever reports you're gonna read, they don't work because we eat too much, we drink too much, we drive too fast, we we touch things, we we poke around stuff that we know we shouldn't, but we do. The facts don't change people. It has to be something has to get through our armor, into our psyche, into our consciousness to go, now I get it. And that's the challenge, isn't it? Going from really understanding, understanding your why, not just knowing is the right thing to do. Well, the why has to be an emotional Toby Mildon: connection, and this is something that Simon Sinek talks about. And he he talks about how difficult it is to connect with the why because it is an emotional thing. It's really difficult for us to put the why into words. When you look at his model, it's like a bull's eye chart. You know? So you've got why in the middle, you've got how, and then you've got what on the edge. And he says, the what is dead easy. And and loads of people, they they know how to do the what. They get excited by it. They just go ahead and they do loads of the what. They do loads of stuff. And in terms of the world that you and I work in, that looks like raising so running lots of diversity and inclusion events and designing yeah, implementing lots of EDI initiatives and things like that, and they get very excited by by that without understanding, actually, what's the strategy behind that, which is the how. Are we doing the right things? Are we doing the things that are actually going to make a difference? Are we getting good value for money? Are we gonna get a return on investment with our activities? But in the middle, it's the why, which is the emotional bit. That's really, really hard for us to articulate because it's a feeling in a lot of cases. Yeah. III and I also find it's a good challenge to people to say, Joanne Lockwood: okay, you want to have gender greater equity, gender greater parity. Why? Why is that? People look at you as if say they're looking also looking at me as they say, well, you should know. You're an idiot expert. You should know why. And I said, I I do, but I I don't I need to know why you think it's a good idea for your business and for you personally. Is it is it just because when you're at the IOD dinner, you can go, yeah, we're positive gender pay gap, or is it because you actually believe it's gonna benefit your organization at all levels and your customer experience and your shareholder value. And and and not only that that as a reason, but also understanding how it contributes to delivering that ROI, isn't it? That's that's the important thing. Not just having this balance sheet expectation of of success. Yeah. Toby Mildon: Exactly. Okay. I'm going, yeah, going back to this this woke Joanne Lockwood: anti wokeism pushback and, you know, this mood that we're we're seeing at the moment, we'd part of part of the pushback often is is organisations aren't realising this ROI, return and inclusion, return on investment, however you wanna describe it. Why why is that? Why aren't people realising the ROI? It's because they don't know Toby Mildon: how to track it. I had a really interesting conversation. 1 of the first I I've got my own podcast, and 1 of the first episodes I ever did was with, Peter Cheese, who's the chief exec of the CIPD, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. And there was 1 thing that he said in that interview that really stuck with me was that a lot of people working in HR are lacking commercial skills. They don't know how to talk business language. They don't know how to go to a board meeting and speak business. And quite often, there's AAA disconnect because board members are like, oh, it's just that, you know, there's HR fluffy stuff. Like, let them get on with the HR fluffy stuff. And then the HR people don't know how to speak the the corporate commercial language. Part of that is about your business case. And when let me give you an example of, like, what I think what is really powerful. I I do a lot of, like, ETI, you know, surveys with companies and things like that. My favorite question is and I think if I if I could just have 1 question in the survey, like, this would be it. It's, are you thinking of leaving the business in the next 6 months because you don't feel respected for who you are or that you belong. And then you answer, yes, yes, but for other reasons, maybe, no, prefer not to say. And then what we do is we correlate that to salary data, and we run that through our cost of attrition algorithm, and we can calculate cost of attrition. And just as an example, we'd we I did this with a company, data company. They employed about 900 peeps. Small number of people were seriously thinking of leaving the business. And we ran it through the algorithm, and it would potentially cost this organization 1 and a half £1, 000, 000. So if you take that number to a CFO and you say, look. We got 1 and a half £1, 000, 000 on the table. Should I just throw that out the window, Or shall we invest £30, 000 to try and retain these people to give them a greater sense of belonging? Like, is that a good return on investment? I think most CFOs will go, hell, yeah. You know? Let's put 30 grand into this and potentially save, you know, save ourselves 1 and a half £1, 000, 000. And that's the kind of data, that's the kind of commercial conversations that we that we should be having. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I did a lot of work in the recruitment sector, and I I'm always saying to the people I'm communicating with, you don't start your recruitment project by all all the stuff where you are now. You don't the first thing you don't do is write job description. What you do is you you you recruit with retention in mind. So your first objective has to be retention. So what helps you retain good people? Belongingness, culture, values, removing toxicity, psychological safety. So unless you get that bit right first, why do you wanna put more fish into a dirty tank? They'll just get fed rot and die. So it's really trying to drill home to people. Retention has to be your your top priority. Because if you get your attention right, less people will leave. They'll be more willing to recommend you. People will see you as a fantastic company. They'll wanna join you. They'll wanna stay. They'll wanna be promoted. It becomes self fulfilling prophecy. But if you start not caring about why people are leaving, they would just keep leaving. You just bring them in through this revolving door, and it will just cost you Definitely. Increase tenure by by by 10%, as you say, saves save millions. Yeah. And and leaders can think Toby Mildon: about what we would call the employee value proposition or the employer brand, and there's 3 if you imagine a pyramid, there's kind of 3 levels to the EVP. So at the bottom, you've got your your basics. You've got your hygiene factors, so things like, you know, pay, number of hours, that kind of thing. The middle layer is benefits, so access to health care, access to gym membership, company car, you need to make sure that those benefits are inclusive, for example. So my personal example is that I've worked for many companies with free health sorry. You know, with private health care. I'm immediately excluded because they won't touch anybody who's got preexisting health condition. So I'm like, well, that's that's no that health care benefit's no good to me. They they didn't think about having a health care policy, and they are available, by the way. That covers preexisting health conditions where I could have benefited from private health care. And then at the top of the pyramid, you've got all of the aspirational stuff, and this is things like, you know, connecting people with your values, connecting people with your your purpose and your mission and things like that. It's it's kind of Hertzberg 2 factor Joanne Lockwood: theory 101 mixed with a bit of Maslow, wasn't it, really? That's what we're talking about. As is always the case, it's always a mishmash of Toby Mildon: existing models. We're just Yeah. You know, re re you know, repurposing them. Yeah. With an EDI lens, I think we often use Joanne Lockwood: things like Hertzberg and Maslow and and these other kind of models. But as soon as you start shining an EDI lens on them about well-being, actually say this is the hygiene. Mhmm. This is the motivation. And if if hygiene's 0, motivation you can motivate all you like, but hygiene's 0. The performance are gonna wane, and and the environment's gonna suck. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Beanbags and pizzas on Friday isn't gonna solve isn't gonna solve toxic workplace where people feel bullied or discriminated. That's funny. I worked for an organization and I I used to work with Toby Mildon: the well-being, the person responsible for well-being. And, companies are like you know, companies are saying, oh, we're really worried about people's mental health and well-being. So we're gonna provide access to an employee assistance program. We're gonna provide free counseling therapy. We're gonna have these, like, lovely breakout rooms where you can relax in a pod or something like that. You know? And then he was saying, but, actually, if you're if you've got a bad relationship with your manager, if you've got too much work to do and that is stressing you out, that that that's the thing that needs addressing. Like, the beanbags and the the the free coffee in the office and the free basket of fruit and all that kind of stuff just won't cut it. It's the you need to go back to the the root cause. Yeah. And I don't wanna get Joanne Lockwood: political, but if you I look back at how I was viewing the country 6 to 8 weeks ago or the last 2 years, I found this being this dark cloud of of toxicity, not just because I'm a trans woman, but there was just a general feeling of not wanting to support the wider community. There was almost this dark cloud of of of anyone who's marginalized or a minority needing equity was being pushed out. EDI initiatives were being thrown out the door. The this anti won't this came in, reinforced by the mainstream media. And I I can say to people, I'm I don't care about the economy. I don't care about mortgage rates. I don't care about interest rates. I don't care about Ukraine. I don't care about Rwanda. What I care about is waking up not feeling unsafe as a human being in my society. And I woke up on Friday morning thinking, regardless who's who's in government, I that's why I want to change. I wanna wake up not feeling that I and my friends and people I know are feeling worried about their existence and right to exist, and I think that's that goes down to the corporate level as well. You know, if you've got that feeling, you're not gonna respond. You're not gonna perform. Toby Mildon: Yeah. What you're saying really that it reminds me of something because I interviewed somebody on my my podcast called Cynthia who's a trans woman, and she was saying that 1 of the we were talking about privileges earlier, weren't we? 1 of the things that she realized when she she kind of talks about the first time that she steps outside her front door and walks down her street, she felt unsafe as a trans woman. And she took for granted, maybe I don't know if that's the right word or not, but I think she until that moment, she didn't she wasn't aware of of feeling unsafe. And and like you're saying, like, you want you the there's been there's there's been a lot of negative political rhetoric over the last conservative government and certainly in the the general election campaign. I think a lot of politicians have tried to create divisions rather than unity. And, yeah, I mean, just wanting to wake up in the morning and feel safe, I think, is a a basic a basic need that, yeah, that's really important. I mean, you know, when I when I was thinking about who to vote for in the general election, actually, I was my the my decision was purely based on which political party I thought would do a better job for disabled people. I wasn't even thinking about the economy or anything like that even though I should. As as an entrepreneur, I should be thinking about the, you know, the the economy policy economic policies, but I thought, yeah, the conservative government have done such a shitty job for disabled people over the last 10 years. Disabled people are there's increase in disabled hate crime. There's, you know, disabled people that are out out of work. There's so much inequality for disabled people in British society. I'd say, you know, the number 1 thing for me was about supporting disabled people, helping them live their best lives. Yeah. Just trying to get us up all Mhmm. Several layers on Maslow's Joanne Lockwood: hierarchy. Get us off the bottom and the second rung out, but into the start creating a belongingness and a and a spirit within us. Toby Mildon: And Yeah. And that's what leaders in business Joanne Lockwood: have to recognise. That is that it's just that icky, cloudy, dark feeling that people have. And I don't know if you've seen the film inside out or inside out 2. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm Toby Mildon: saying. I'm a great fan of that analogy because I always used to have this Joanne Lockwood: little angry red man in my head driving everything, and then suddenly I found joy, and joy took over. And I think what's happened for me on Friday 5th July was joy started flying the plane flying the plane again. And I'm I'm hoping that is long lived, not short lived, and it's not just a honeymoon thing, but I'd like to see that we have this different attitude in society about inclusion, safety, supporting people. Yeah. Because Yeah. To be honest, the economy is the economy. It's not like you can do in a in a world economy these days. You can't do too much. You can tweak it a bit bit like the latest competitor did. You can tweak it a bit and and crash it and and send the market scurrying, but broadly with the Bank of England and other people with the fiscal controls out there. You can only tweak the edges, really. It's about it's about it's about the culture you're trying to breathe in the country that's that's gonna lift people, create productivity, and up our GDP, and all those things. It's the culture. Yeah. It's boosting Toby Mildon: innovation, creativity, and we we get better innovation, better creativity with diverse people working on the problem. You know, 1 of my clients, they're a they're a consultancy in the energy market, and they're they're very much moving into the renewable energy space because that, obviously, that's a the future in achieving net 0 and things like that. And diversity and inclusion is really important for them because they've realized they cannot solve a big problem like climate change and achieving net 0 if you've got the same bunch of people working on the problem falling into groupthink. You need to have those diverse experiences, perspectives, etcetera, etcetera. And it will just you know, if every company took that approach, then it will help I think it really help boost our economics. Yeah. Because Joanne Lockwood: belonging is all is all around alignment of vision and values, isn't it? And if we look at the important things for many people today, it's it's feeling safe, feeling included, it's psychological safety, but it's also alignment with the planet. If you look at Gen z, I'm sure Gen Alpha are gonna be like this on steroids, and even some younger millennials have really focused on environmental sustainability recycling. So the whole language about getting people back into work, making people work twice as hard again and not coming down and commuting long distances is against where society was moving in the last 3 or 4 years. I think we need to go back to this recognizing we gotta look after ourselves and the planet. Yeah. That's very heartening. Also, there's almost, like, Toby Mildon: very industrial revolution language. It's like, let's get everyone into factories, churning out widgets, working really hard 9 to 5. We live in a different world now where where where the world of work has changed. We're we're a lot more creative. We're a lot more innovative. People are not expecting the same job for life like they used to. They want portfolio careers. They want a lot more autonomy over the way they work, whether that's working in, like, the gig economy or working as a self employed freelancer or something like that or and there's definitely a trend, and we see this with younger people, of wanting to work for businesses where you've got values alignment. There's some really interesting research that is suggesting Gen zed, for example, are choosing to work for companies with where their values are aligned, and they're actively avoiding those companies that don't have a values alignment. So those companies that are not speaking to the younger generation values, a lot of it around a fair society, a lot of it around green greenness and saving the planet, they're missing out on that on that talent. Yeah. I I have the Joanne Lockwood: privilege of working with people who wanna work with me because I'm a I'm a polarizing person being transgender. It means that I turn people off, and they don't they don't knock on my door. So, generally, people who do knock on my door know who I am and wanna work with me. So I find it really good. So my values tend to align because I self declare, if you like. So I guess Gen z is the same. You put it out there and say, I don't I don't need to be something to everybody. I need to be Marmite. I need to I need some people to hate me and some people to like me. Let's work on the people who like me and love me and celebrate me for who I am. That's that's where we wanna be, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. Toby, it's been absolutely fascinating. I can't believe the hour's up already, and, we had a good chat in the green room beforehand. How do people get a hold of you? The the Toby Mildon: best way is to find me on LinkedIn. I create lots of content every week. Just connect with me on LinkedIn, drop me a message, we can chat over there. And you've got a book and you've got Joanne Lockwood: podcasts and other stuff as well, haven't you? Yes. I've actually got 2 Toby Mildon: books now. So my first book is called Inclusive Growth, and my second book, which came out very recently, is called Building Inclusivity. They're both available on Amazon. I've got a podcast called the Inclusive Growth Show, which you can find on Apple Podcasts and all of the other lovely platforms that are out there. And I interview lots of interesting, fascinating EDI experts, including yourself, Joanne. So so yeah. Yeah. Go go and find Joanne's upside with me. Fantastic. Thank you so much. And, Joanne Lockwood: I'll put all links to all of the stuff I can find on in the show notes. And, it's been an absolute pleasure spending this hour with you having a good chat. Cool. Thanks, Joanne. Thanks for inviting me. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world 1 episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.