--- title: "How to Simplify Inclusion by Focusing on Behaviours" episode: 13 date: 2020-09-10 guest: "Jackie Handy" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/13-how-to-simplify-inclusion-by-focusing-on-behaviours audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-013/audio.mp3 --- # How to Simplify Inclusion by Focusing on Behaviours Joanne Lockwood is joined by Jackie Handy to explore how organisations can make inclusion feel more practical and achievable by focusing on everyday behaviours and language, rather than relying on unconscious bias training as a standalone solution. They discuss why bias training can sometimes trigger defensiveness or shame, and why inclusion efforts work best when they are part of a broader, ongoing approach that builds understanding, reflection, and action. The conversation looks at privilege, systemic barriers, and the importance of creating safe conditions for people to have honest discussions that may feel challenging. Jackie and Joanne also examine what proactive allyship looks like in practice, including the courage to challenge harmful comments and the vulnerability to admit what we do not yet know. They reflect on how storytelling can educate while also risking tokenism if organisations treat difference as performance rather than embedding change into culture. The episode closes with a vision of inclusion and belonging becoming so embedded in organisations that it no longer needs to be labelled as a separate initiative, supported by small, consistent behavioural steps taken by everyone. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Focus on language, behaviour for positive inclusion. - 03:23 — Newcomers uncomfortable with being labelled as biased. - 07:52 — Unconscious bias training needs to consider intersectionality. - 11:11 — Reflects on need for support and inclusion. - 17:13 — Courage in communication cultivates positive change. - 18:52 — Avoid unconscious bias training, use gentle questioning. - 21:52 — Recognising privilege, self-reflection, and discomfort. Reflection. - 24:59 — Understanding privilege, education, and empowerment for inclusion. - 28:14 — Diversity in DNI roles brings tokenism debate. - 32:13 — DNI paradox: Acceptance vs. judging by identity. - 34:51 — Effective communication undermines the need for labels. - 38:13 — Longing for belonging and love, seeking purpose. - 41:45 — Thank you for listening, subscribe and share. ## Key takeaways - The importance of understanding the "why" behind inclusion and focusing on positive behavioural changes. - Limitations of unconscious bias training and the need for a holistic approach to embedding inclusion. - The role of privilege in shaping biases and experiences, and how to address it responsibly. - Differences between being passively non-racist and actively anti-racist, along with strategies for having difficult conversations. - The necessity of proactive allyship and the significance of events like the George Floyd killing in informing inclusion efforts. - Building empathy and trust through vulnerability and cautious approaches to discussing biases and privilege. - The imperative of valuing everyone and fostering positive relationships without resorting to token gestures or labels. ## FAQs ### What is the main focus of this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast? In this episode, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Jackie Handy to discuss how focusing on behaviours can simplify inclusion, rather than relying solely on unconscious bias training. ### Why is unconscious bias training not sufficient on its own for fostering real inclusion? Unconscious bias training often leads to discomfort and defensive reactions among participants. It also fails to address systemic discrimination and intersectionality effectively. Behavioural change offers a more holistic and practical approach to embedding inclusion. ### What practical steps do Joanne and Jackie recommend for promoting inclusive behaviours? Jackie suggests starting with the positive aspects of inclusion, understanding the underlying 'why', and providing clear, practical steps for changing behaviours. This can be more effective than focusing solely on identifying biases. ### How should one approach conversations about diversity and inclusion in the workplace? Both Joanne and Jackie stress that these conversations should be initiated with vulnerability, courage, positive intention, respect, and kindness. It's important to create an environment where employees feel safe to discuss difficult topics. ### Why is it important to consider privilege when discussing biases and inclusion? Privilege shapes our biases and experiences whether we are aware of it or not. By acknowledging and understanding privilege, we can better understand different perspectives and work towards genuine inclusivity. ### What does being an ally entail, according to Jackie Handy? Being an ally means being proactive in supporting inclusion. This involves moving beyond passive non-racist behaviours to actively being anti-racist and supporting marginalised groups, particularly in response to significant events like the George Floyd killing. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's seechangehappen.co.uk. Of course, you better catch up with all of these shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 13 with a title, how to Simplify inclusion by focusing on behaviours. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Jackie Handy. I first met Jackie at an annual convention of the Professional Speaking Association a few years back, and of course, many times since, Jackie describes herself as a speaker who trains global businesses on the topics of diversity, inclusion, belonging and leadership. I asked Jackie to describe her superpower and she said to be able to speak people's languages in such a way to create simple, clear understanding around a topic. So, hello, Jackie, welcome to the show. Jackie Handy: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Joanne Lockwood: Yes, and we've had some technical difficulties this morning, but I think we've persevered, we've made it. Tell me, then, how do you simplify inclusion by focusing on behaviours? Well, yeah, I mean, Jackie Handy: it's something that, I think it sort of does what it says on the tin, but I think we all know that in order to become more inclusive, we need to focus on the language that we use and the behaviours that we demonstrate each and every day with everybody in our networks. And what I found is, when I'm speaking to organisations about their diversity and inclusion strategies, so many of them are really focusing on getting people through unconscious bias training and potentially discrimination awareness training. And whereas those things are incredibly useful and a fundamental part of the diversity and inclusion journey, I actually feel that sometimes people find that that puts a bit of a sort of negative spin on how they feel about the topic because of this discomfort it creates. And so the way I see it, if we're able to focus on predominantly the proactive behavioural steps we can take to be more inclusive in the actions and behaviours and the language that we use every day, then that creates a much more positive framework around the topic of inclusion generally. I completely Joanne Lockwood: agree. We all know that there's millions and millions of pounds, euros and shekels spent around the world on UB training. And you're right, evidence says that it's not moving the needle at all. What do you think is actually going wrong with the training? Is it because we're just teaching people about biases and we're not actually giving them any outcomes or real sort of practical steps? What's your thoughts? Well, my Jackie Handy: thoughts are really that somebody walks into a room, just sort of imagine this. I mean, you and I, we're familiar with the space, we understand the space, we understand all the benefits associated with it. But for somebody that's just being introduced to diversity and inclusion and their first experience of that is to walk into a room and be told that they're actually bias, I think that can feel very uncomfortable. And indeed I've experienced that when I've been asked to deliver unconscious bias training by organisations where I've had people say, well, I just don't agree because I'm not bias. And so then you've got that defensive mechanism and that fragility coming through, but also you'll perhaps have people that were actually quite excited about the whole topic and suddenly they feel really ashamed that they've got a bias, when actually they thought they were quite an inclusive individual. So, as I say, I don't think that there's a problem having unconscious bias training as part of an ongoing journey towards diversity and inclusion in our society and in our organisations. But I'm not sure it works well as an opening gambit, when actually, I think we all know that, as Simon Sinek famously said, start with why. And we all know that when we understand more about the why to something and how that benefits not only ourselves but our organisations and our society in general, then we're probably much more likely to then start that journey from a positive standpoint and then a little later down that journey are able to understand more about our biases, but importantly why those biases happen. And then, as you say, give them something to take away and do differently on the back of that. Joanne Lockwood: So I imagine right now there's probably people screaming at the podcast going, well, I do unconscious bias training and I get great results, I'm really positive. Or there's maybe some organisations out there listening in saying, well, we've just invested unconscious bias training for all our staff and it's gone really, really well. So I think we probably appreciate that not all unconscious bias training is created equal. And there are some very good trainers out there, some very good programmes do work. And I think what we do is we call them unconscious bias training. But really they're more than that, aren't they? Well, absolutely. Jackie Handy: And this isn't a standpoint to say, oh, all trainers doing it are rubbish. I've also delivered unconscious bias training for organisations and had some good results and I'm sure you have too. I think the point that I'm really making is that if people really want to move the dial on inclusion, I mean, unconscious bias training has been around for a long time now and yet the dial is slow to move on inclusion. So why is that if unconscious bias training is so good? And I think one of the things I've said is that it could cause a lack of engagement, a disappointment in fact from delegates or some delegates doing it. This is not a sweeping statement for everybody, but for some. And the second thing to say is that, as we know, in isolation, in fact any training in isolation is not particularly effective and unconscious bias training is no exception. So it has to be part of a holistic approach to embedding inclusion and inclusive actions and behaviours within organisations as a whole. Joanne Lockwood: I completely agree. I think we've seen over the last, since lockdown, we've seen a lot of things going on the news about how people are readjusting to working remotely, working from home, working in different situations, people's mental health. We've also seen the Black Lives Matter movement come to the forefront on everyone's television screens. All of these things are highlighting that it's not really bias that is really the problem we're trying to fix. It's about systemic oppression, systemic discrimination. It's about how cultures are built for the privileged and the less privileged. Intersectional individuals have less privilege and less power. And that isn't really being addressed by unconscious bias training, from what I understand. Exactly, Jackie Handy: and I'm glad you raised it because it was a point I wanted to mention too, is that as we know so often, unconscious bias training doesn't refer to intersectionality. So it's very much referring to underrepresented or minority groups as a single element, if you like. And we know that identity isn't a single element for anybody really, is it? So I think that can cause and create issues and I guess disengagement. Also, I think you raised the good point about privilege and the systemic nature of our society. And I think you and I know that privilege isn't just about white privilege, but privilege takes many, many forms. And again, I think it's almost a more effective exercise actually to highlight our privileges, or lack thereof, in order to demonstrate how they in turn our experiences, our cultural backgrounds, our privileged or less privileged condition in society, basically brings us to a place where we are going to have more or less bias towards other people. And it all forms part of that complete approach, if you like. And I think therefore, one thing in isolation is less effective than a whole combination of interventions. I hate the term interventions when it comes to diversity and inclusion, by the way, because I think it's an ongoing journey, but for want of a better term, I think there has to be a collaborative journey approach to really committing to inclusion. And as we know, it's not enough to say I'm not racist or I'm not homophobic, or I'm not against women or whatever. It's not enough anymore. It never has been enough just to say those things. But actually we have to be proactive in our allyship to be true allies. And I think the George Floyd killing has really, certainly from the Black Lives Matter movement, has really brought that to the forefront of people's attention that it is just not enough to say I'm not racist or I don't believe I'm racist. It needs another step whereby people are stepping out and saying, and this is what I'm doing proactively about that, to be antiracist. And yeah, I think that's just highlighting what needs to happen. One of the things we were chatting about before we went on Joanne Lockwood: air was around this concept of being deliberate and proactive in your inclusion. And you're right in what you say there. By being passively not racist is not the same as being antiracist in an active way, is it? Jackie Handy: Absolutely. And one of the things I talk about from my own experience, of course, different experience, but my own experience is the fact that all I really wanted at certain points was somebody to stand up for me, somebody to take my side, to fight my corner, to challenge the people who were bullying me. And we're reminded of the passive nature of inclusion. I use that in inverted commas again in the Black Lives movement, Matter movement, because I've been reading a book, a great book, and I was talking to you about this prior, but it's called me and White Supremacy, and it's by Leila Saad. And it's a great book that it's very reflective. It's quite a hard read at times because it really challenges your white privileges, but it also explains the terminology in great detail. But it gets you reflecting on so many facets of the way in which you deal with racism and understand racism in society. And it goes deep enough to say, well, how do you engage in conversations around racism with your family and with your friends? And there are details in there about perhaps somebody of an older generation in your family has been somebody that has made racist remarks or racist comments or racist jokes in the past. And how have you challenged that? And it really got me thinking, because as somebody that is very, very passionate about inclusion in all its forms, you don't really want to admit that you've ever just let that go. And often, with our nearest and dearest, we do. We're more tolerant and accepting of their biases, overt or otherwise. And yet, as I was saying to you earlier, it's those people that really we need to be having those deep and meaningful conversations with, to challenge those belief systems. Because just because it might have been acceptable 20, 30, 40 years ago certainly doesn't mean it's acceptable now. And really, deep in their hearts, those people realise that. So I think they're ongoing conversations to really get us the courage, not in a. And I use this in the racism battle, if you like, for antiracism in our society. I don't think in a sort of white saviorist term, and to make out that I'm the only white person and I'm here to act on behalf of all white people to save the day, because it just doesn't work that way. But to acknowledge that even when we work in the field, there is always so much more we can learn. And by honouring that vulnerability, I think is a really good first step to saying we want to walk that walk. And we acknowledge there is more to do. And personally, I'm taking ownership to do that. And I'd like to bring others on the journey with me. Yeah, obviously Joanne Lockwood: we're seasoned DNI professionals, some might say, and we struggle sometimes, being able to have conversations with people, being able to challenge people, because it can take some personal bravery as well, to be able to stand up to hearing something. You may, at certain times, put yourself in a situation of danger where you stand up, maybe in public, or you may find yourself being victimised by calling it out and someone sort of challenging you back. So for people who are maybe not in the DNI space, not used to having these conversations, what can they do to become comfortable doing this? I Jackie Handy: mean, gosh, great question. And funnily enough, a couple of the behaviours that I work with people to focus on are vulnerability and courageousness. Because, as we know, thanks to Brene Brown and many other authors and speakers in that field, but vulnerability and courage do go hand in hand and in hand with that, you'll see how all these behaviours that I talk about really intertwine with one another. There has to be that creation of safety in that environment. So it almost needs a commitment of everyone to take small steps. And I'm a big believer in small steps. Let's not try and run before we can walk. Let's not try and be the expert in everything immediately, or even ever, because humanity evolves. Right. But let's think about how we can start those conversations from a place of. I don't know, but I want to know. And I think that when we do that from a place of vulnerability, but with positive intention, especially in our workplaces, we are more likely to find that there is a buy into at least starting those conversations. But I think we have to have charters, if you want to call it that, a code of ethics, whatever people want to call it in their organisation, but agreements really, that we're going to have conversations that may challenge us, that we may not always agree with. Because I say to people, you don't have to always agree with somebody's viewpoint to respect it. And that is the key. To be able to be open and vulnerable would be the first step. Then link that in with the courage to ask the questions and for the information that you don't know as well as the courage to be asked, and therefore respond to questions that might be asked of you and your own identity starts to then move that dial forward just for that couple of people or that team or that division, very, very gently and kindly, but with positive intention. And we know how important communication is in any area of business, and this really is no exception. These communications, they can't just be had in a classroom, a facilitated space, but actually think about ways that an organisation can incorporate something to do with, excuse me, diversity and inclusion into their team meetings, into a one to one with a manager and a team member, but always with it framed at the outset, always with permission and always with respect and kindness and without judgement. That sounds like quite a big catalogue of things, but actually we can make it simple when all those parameters are put in place and there is buying an agreement from everybody to commit. Joanne Lockwood: Sure. I love the way you talked about vulnerability. I'm a great believer in through vulnerability you can build empathy. When you got empathy, you can start building conversations and the space becomes non threatening. It becomes an open conversation, doesn't it? Absolutely. Jackie Handy: And this is why I'm so big on saying, let's not have our opening gambit as an unconscious bias training session, because what often happens is we're forcing people to show their vulnerabilities. You put them through an IAT, the implicit association test, for example, and there it is, their vulnerability laid bare. And they may not be ready for that just at that moment. And whereas, I think, I don't know if you've used them yourself, Jo, probably. But when you have questions that you ask gentle but impactful questions around privilege, various types of privilege, and then the individual can reflect themselves on the privilege that they have or don't have, then what you're able to do is from a place of. You're not saying, oh, you have biases. What you're saying is the society in which we live has, without you requesting it, either worked to serve you and your identity, or worked against you and your identity. Let's have that from a place of a springboard, if you like, to move forward from. And I think that somehow, although the term privilege sounds like a horrid term, when we really look under the surface of what that means, privilege is having something that goes in your favour that you've never asked for. That's what privilege means. Unlike the biases where we suggest that, oh, actually, you should be working to overcome those biases, and we know that can happen. But instead to say, well, let's look at what society has or hasn't offered you. And now let's use that from a place of springboard. Because when we're starting then, and I guess I'm trying to make it a bit more comfortable for people, and others may argue with me and say, well, no, if people are to be inclusive, they have to feel uncomfortable. But again, I just don't think it's a great place to always open from. By being able to look at systemic, the systemic nature of what's in our society, first we can then look at, okay, and how have I misunderstood the lack of privilege that somebody, the person to the left or the person to the right of me may have experienced? And that is without saying, this person who's LGBT, identifying as, or this person who's female, or this person who uses a wheelchair or whatever, but instead of those kind of cohorts, just simply as the person to the left of me and the person to the right of me, what does their experience look like from society? And then we can start taking steps to look at individually what we can do. Does that make sense? It does. I picked up a couple of words there. I was writing them Joanne Lockwood: down. Relatability is quite a key thing, and I know myself, I don't consider myself privileged, but I am privileged. Does that make sense? You don't self identify because we all swim in the same air and the air we breathe is our privilege and we don't see it often. And there's an incident this week actually where my privilege was challenged and it really knocked me, it really caused me to reflect. I mean, I was in a group, we're having a conversation about something and someone spoke about their perspective. I felt myself triggered by it and I thought, wow, my privilege just kicked in there and I felt really uncomfortable and I had to self heal myself to think, right, okay, let's work through this. That feeling I've just had is my privilege being triggered. I fully understand what it can feel like for a CEO, someone who's running a company, a senior manager, to have someone challenge their privilege because they're going to feel this uncomfortability that I felt certainly this week. And I think we as educators, we've got to make sure we don't put people in that position without some support to help them through that. Jackie Handy: Absolutely. And what you're describing is absolutely natural. And like you, I have privilege in certain areas of my identity and my lifestyle and my culture, and I also fall foul. So I'm considered, I suppose, inferior on a privilege perspective in other areas. So this is that whole intersectionality coming in again, and the fact that we are not just a thing, a label, but we're so much more than that, so much more complex. So you're right. I think a couple of the behaviours that I focus on, one would be understanding, and that's really understanding one another at a deeper level, and there's more to it than that. But that's sort of in simple terms. And then another of the behaviours is education. And I mean that in terms of educating ourselves on what does it mean to have or not have privilege. And the fact that, as you mentioned yourself, and I've done it too, Jo, I've responded in a defensive way to almost protect myself because I don't want to appear like a bad person in some way. That actually is also a thing. It is known as a fragility response and it's quite normal and it's quite natural. But to understand why we do it is really more of a lack of understanding of what privilege actually means. Because privilege doesn't necessarily mean that you were brought up in affluence. It doesn't necessarily mean that at all. It could be part of the privilege spectrum, if you like, but it certainly doesn't just mean that, and I've seen some really, to be honest, slightly cringeworthy posts and so on that have come out just in the wake of the George Floyd killing and the Black Lives Matter movement starting being dominant again on social, where people have said, yeah, I don't have privilege either because I was brought up in a poor family and so on, and I'm realising that the intention is positive, but the education is lacking as to what that really is. And so I think that as educators, we not only should be talking more around this stuff and explaining in very respectful terms, so no one has to patronise in this, we're all in this together, as it were, but to explain clearly what it means and what it doesn't mean, but then also empower those people to self educate. I've just mentioned the book I've read, and you and I, and I know many others like us, invest in our own development constantly. We're constantly learning. And I've always said this in any aspect of my work, is that the day you think you know everything is just like the saddest day ever. There is so much always to learn. I think that inclusion is another topic, like many others, that it needs some sort of gentle buy in persuasion and some simplification on some of the things that we can do. But also it needs enough to be able to be gifted so that those people that we're working with can now feel empowered to take responsibility to learn more and also act on that and make small changes. Again, I say those small steps that can really make a difference, not only to their own lives, but to those around them. Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely, for sure. As you're talking now, I think about. We're talking about trying to practise relatability, trying to understand different people, checking our own privilege and being able to walk into the shoes of others. And I know many organisations, they bring in subject matter experts, they host lunch and nerds and things, and they bring in people who maybe storytell, maybe some personal experience, or talk about their own characteristic. And I'm a great believer in storytelling as being a great source of education. But what I also sometimes challenge organisations is, if they're not careful, they can be a bit tokenistic, they can also be a bit. I describe it as the greatest showman experience, where you've got P. T. Barnum getting all the misfits into a room for the benefit and entertainment of the privileged. Roll up, roll up. Come and see the bearded lady, come and see the midget, come and see the person with three arms. And sometimes we've got to be careful that corporate best intentions don't end up feeling like this sort of showcase of difference. Jackie Handy: It's a great point and I'm in two minds about this actually, because I think, first of all, I totally agree with your storytelling. What I think is interesting is when we look at organisations and C suite roles and whatever, and especially now as you're getting more diversity and inclusion directors know, global heads of DNI and so on and so forth, it's interesting that, and I say this rarely, not never, rarely is this a white, straight, able bodied man. What am I trying to say here? I think there is an element of tokenism in that very nature to say, well, it's DNI, so we need someone who's considered diverse, as you say, in the kind of roll up, roll up. And when I think organisations get DNI people in or get speakers in to talk about inclusion, it is difficult because I think, all right, so if, let's just say a white, straight, able bodied man got up on stage to talk about the importance of diversity and inclusion, now would there be anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. I'm sure that that individual could give just as much value because of course we don't know what's gone on in their life and their life experiences, so they could give just as much value. However, I think there are also going to be people in the audience who would judge that and would say, oh, okay, well look at that then. The privileged white man, straight man, able bodied man dictating to us about people who are very, very different. So I guess you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't, really. I think what is important is whomever is on your stage. And by the way, I'm quite happy to have organisations bring somebody in that's got difference because it kind of helps me as much as it helps a lot of us. But what I think is the most important thing is that it just doesn't end there. And in the same way that if you have somebody of an underrepresented group as your head of DNI, that that really isn't just your token approach. And actually there's something much more proactive going on under the surface to make sure that your rainbow logo one month every year has really got some substance underneath it. And I would say that about any other campaign and so on, that is the important thing. It's more than what just happens on a stage or what happens in a classroom. And it's everything as we know about what happens beyond that. That's what I would say about that. It's a tough one. And I hear you in terms of the sort of tokenistic feeling it can sometimes have. I think it's true. There are occasions where I think, oh, here we are, the female lesbian, talking about diversity and inclusion. How apt. But then, on the other hand, I do have an experience in that field. And we use our anecdotes in our stories, don't we? We use our personal experience. It's part of who we are. And I'm a white woman, so I have privilege of colour, as it were, in the society that we live in. I am a woman, so I identify as a woman, so therefore I potentially have an inferiority in some parts of society. But we are just all a combination of our experiences, our culture, our upbringing and so on. Joanne Lockwood: This is the paradox of DNI, isn't it? We're all there going, right, I don't want to be judged on the colour of my skin, what's between my legs, my ability or lack of physical, my disabilities, my neurodiversity. I want to be accepted for who I am, the capability I can do. Then in walks a white guy and stands on stage, and then everybody's judging him on the colour of his skin, his gender, and what does he know? So this is this paradox, isn't it? We want to have this right, not to be judged ourselves, yet we're the first to maybe jump out and say, what do they know? It is tricky. And I know sometimes it's more about being seen to be doing the right thing, almost like this political statement rather than necessity statement. And I was on a call this week and someone banded out this tired, sad trope, white male, pale and stale, which I find personally offensive. I'm sure you do, too. But again, what this person was then doing was effectively demonising white men in the DNI space for not knowing what they're talking about. And I called it out and I said, look, I'm not prepared to be on a call with that language that can be used. It's not my kind of thing. But what we've got to be careful of here is we don't end up creating our little echo chambers where we believe we use our own bias to say, my opinion must be the only opinion. Nobody else can know as much as I do, which is a bias. Absolutely. And I think you're Jackie Handy: right. In the whole white male area, discrimination is still discrimination. Bias is still bias. And I think we do have to be careful. I've been saying this for a while, we've got to be really careful that we don't discriminate against another group to give opportunities to a different group. Everybody has value and everybody's value should be appreciated. And hence, again, why I really promote the behaviour side of things, because this is basically saying regardless of who we are in terms of our physical or any, any other sort of expression of our identity, we all understand what it means to demonstrate certain behaviours and that actually it crosses borders and it crosses boundaries of identity as well. And so that's why it can be so effective, because we are the first to say we don't like labels and yet constantly we're labelling, labelling, labelling, this just removes that once again. And all I would say is fellow human being. And for a fellow human being I'm going to take steps to learn about them, be vulnerable with them, be courageous with them and so on and so on. To really dig deeper into that relationship and the influence of that individual's and my own identity in our relationship. And as we understand one another better, just as individual human beings, then we have a mutual platform to work from. And that doesn't need any label, does it? That's what I see as that is just pure relationship building communication. And to be honest with you, love between one human being and another, that's really what I think inclusion boils down to is just a love of our fellow human beings. Joanne Lockwood: Nicely said. Well put. I agree. I think what you're saying there is we all can take personal responsibility and accountability for being the one who can make a difference. And by making a difference through love, through empathy, by having our own vulnerability, being slow to judge, quick to empathise for sure. I Jackie Handy: think inclusion can be hard for people because it does take an element of self reflection, self evaluation and sometimes a bit like the bias conversation. It's not always comfortable what we see when we look in the mirror, as it were. But I think that once we acknowledge that, regardless of how we identify, we will all have that kind of balanced reflection, if you like. So there's good in everybody. I really believe that there's good in everybody, but there'll also be something that feels uncomfortable to look at and we will all have that. You don't have to only be a certain type of person to see that. And once we recognise that, then we can take steps to understand it. And that's where the bias piece can be helpful. Sort of going full circle to where we started. It can be helpful. But as I say, I think we have to kind of frame things from a kinder, more positive place to begin with on that journey, to prepare people for the potential discomfort that will follow, but knowing that when they put themselves through that, they'll come out stronger and more educated and more compassionate at the other end. Awesome, Joanne Lockwood: right? Just as a final note, what do you want to leave the listeners with? What's your thought for the future that you want to leave everyone with? Jackie Handy: I just. I long for the day when I'm out of work, Jo. I long for the day that D I is not a. I mean, you've heard me talk about belonging as well. We all have an innate need to feel as though we belong and that our contribution to the world matters and that we're valued for who we are. And I almost can visualise how that would be in the world. Whereas I was speaking to someone the other day and I said, I'd love to have a superhero power of love glasses, where we literally all saw that. First thing we saw when we looked at another human being was love. And we start from a place of love and then diversity and inclusion training isn't required. It's more about developing and deepening that understanding and bonds with our fellow human beings rather than actually having to label it as something. And maybe that does link to a sort of final word for businesses. And that would be. Don't necessarily think you have to call any kind of dib. Diversity, inclusion, belonging, intervention, diversity and inclusion. You may find that actually by calling it something different, some form of journey that embeds within your culture as an organisation will. Will help keep. Keep people focused on the positives as opposed to necessarily worrying about our. Joanne Lockwood: That's. That's kind of what I would leave with. Fantastic. So the vision is D&I specialists will be out of a job because it's embedded into the business and we just do it because it's the way we are. What a vision for the future. Well, thank you, Jackie. That's been amazing. I've loved your insights and I'm sure everyone who's listening will have much to ponder and take inspiration from. So how can our listeners get in touch with you? Thank you, Jo. And it's been a pleasure Jackie Handy: talking with you as well. So my website is ww, jackiehandy.com. Nice and simple. I'm also on LinkedIn. You'll find me as Jackie Handy, FIRP on there. Those are probably the best channels to find me on. And if I'm allowed to say just one more thing, I've literally, just literally just put together a little book, which is called the Little Book of Belonging and it's a kind of weekly guide to inclusive behaviours and reflections for people. And that can be found on my website as well. So that's the Little Book of Belonging. I've seen you advertise that and promote it on Joanne Lockwood: Facebook and LinkedIn. It looks really good, the Spiral Ring Bander and everything, isn't it? Yeah. Literally just sits on your desk. So it's a desktop book. Yeah. And just so that listeners. I've got it. Jackie is J-A-C-K-I-E isn't it? That's right, yeah. And Jackie Handy: handy, as in youthful as I've been saying my whole life. Yeah. Grown, but yeah, that's correct. Well, thank you so much. Well, a Joanne Lockwood: huge thank you both, Jackie and you, the listener, for tuning in and sticking it out to the end. Please do subscribe to keep updated on all the future episodes of the Inclusion Bytes podcast. That's bites. Please tell your friends, please tell your colleagues. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that will be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. Remember, if you'd like to be a guest, then do let me know. I'd also welcome any feedback and suggestions you might have to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk how I can improve future shows so my name is Joanne and it has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast.