--- title: "The Future Of Gender Equity" episode: 128 date: 2024-09-26 guest: "Valentina Jaramillo" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/128-the-future-of-gender-equity audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-128/audio.mp3 --- # The Future Of Gender Equity Joanne Lockwood is joined by Valentina Jaramillo to discuss what the future of gender equity should look like when it moves beyond a strict women-versus-men framing. Valentina explains key distinctions between sex assigned at birth, gender identity, and gender expression, and shares why gender equity must include nonbinary, agender, and gender nonconforming people rather than leaving them out of workplace strategies, data, and programmes. The conversation explores practical barriers that show up in everyday working life, from resistance to using they/them pronouns to the ways people are pushed back into binary assumptions. Joanne and Valentina also unpack why inclusive language matters, what it can look like in practice, and why organisations need to build environments where people can be respected without having to repeatedly justify their identity. They examine organisational responsibilities in more depth, including gathering better data, building inclusive policies, and addressing areas such as pay transparency and equitable pay across genders. Valentina also highlights the importance of thoughtful facilities provision, including access to gender-neutral restrooms, and discusses how gendered language in policies and benefits (for example, around reproductive health) can unintentionally exclude. Finally, Joanne and Valentina look at performative corporate support during Pride, the difference between rainbow washing and sustained action, and what authentic allyship looks like across the year. The episode closes with a call for organisations to keep learning, have the conversations even when it feels uncomfortable, and commit to meaningful change rather than checkbox inclusion. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Ignite inclusion with Valentina Jaramillo, episode 128. - 03:43 — Gender identity, expression, birth sex explained briefly. - 07:32 — Respect diverse perspectives for better workplace outcomes. - 12:32 — Challenges in including gender diversity in corporate ERGs. - 13:53 — Struggles of being female, language is important. - 19:03 — Frustration with ingrained prejudice in 2024. - 23:05 — Unwilling to change, wife thankfully led battles. - 24:16 — Importance of inclusive language in various environments. - 28:05 — Spanish language evolving to be more inclusive. - 32:46 — English gender struggle versus Spanish nonconforming language. - 36:04 — Acceptance of self and others despite mistakes. - 40:32 — Equality remains an elusive goal in society. - 41:30 — Supporting gender equity in small nonprofits through inclusivity. - 46:57 — Gender identity is a social construct. - 48:14 — Transgender rights benefit everyone, including feminity. - 52:50 — Companies must show genuine commitment to diversity. - 57:21 — Equal pay for everyone, regardless of identity. - 58:23 — Encourage open conversations about gender equality. ## Key takeaways - The issue of "rainbow washing" by companies and the importance of authentic support for the LGBTQ+ community. - The need for pay equity across all genders and promoting transparency in workplace salaries. - Challenges faced by individuals using preferred pronouns and the lack of acceptance in professional environments. - The importance of inclusive language and its impact on creating comfortable and welcoming spaces. - The necessity of gender-neutral restrooms and policies in organisations. - The impact of traditional gender roles and the importance of dismantling oppressive systems. - The significance of broadening women's empowerment initiatives to include all gender minorities and fostering a more inclusive future. ## FAQs ### What is "rainbow washing" and why is it considered problematic? Rainbow washing refers to the practice where companies superficially show support for the LGBTQ+ community, such as changing their logos to rainbow colours during Pride month, without enacting tangible policies or actions that support the community. Valentina Jaramillo highlights that this undermines genuine support and can negatively impact employee morale and retention. ### Why is authentic support important for the LGBTQ+ community within organisations? Authentic support demonstrates genuine commitment and fosters an inclusive environment, which can significantly improve employee morale and retention. Valentina Jaramillo emphasises that involvement in community activities and transparent policies are critical for creating a supportive workplace. ### How can companies ensure they are genuinely supporting gender equity? Joanne Lockwood and Valentina Jaramillo recommend several strategies, including ensuring pay equity for all genders, maintaining transparency in pay structures, and fostering open conversations about gender equity in the workplace. Implementing inclusive policies and actively engaging with the community are also vital steps. ### What are the challenges regarding the use of preferred pronouns in professional settings? Valentina Jaramillo and Joanne Lockwood discuss the resistance faced by individuals who use non-binary pronouns, such as recruiters disregarding candidates with pronouns on LinkedIn and the general lack of effort to use inclusive language. These challenges reflect a broader lack of acceptance and understanding. ### How does British culture impact the adoption of inclusive language? Both Valentina and Joanne touch on the ingrained politeness in British culture, which can make it difficult to change existing language habits. They stress the importance of being intentional and respectful in using correct pronouns and inclusive language. ### How does inclusive language evolve in gendered languages like Spanish? Valentina notes the challenge of creating gender-neutral statements in Spanish, given the language's gendered structure. She discusses ongoing advocacy for inclusive language, which includes using neutral terms and overcoming resistance from those hesitant to change. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 128 with the title, the future of gender equity. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Valentina Jaramillo. Valentina is an empowerment catalyst and an inclusion advocate, a communications expert, and dedicated diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner The passion for creating safe spaces where everyone can bring their true selves and develop their full return. When I asked Valentina to describe their inspirational superpower, they said that their superpower is their honesty and using it to share their lived experience without judging. They would also say they are a good listener, creating a safe space for people to talk to them. Hello, Valentina. Welcome to the show. Valentina Jaramillo: Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Joanne Lockwood: I am as well. It's great to chat to you in the green room and find out that, I'd also been to several of the places you've lived in in the US. So, yes, quite fascinating. So, Valentina, the future gender equity, tell me more about that. Yes. The future Valentina Jaramillo: of gender equity definitely goes beyond the binary and that means that it's not about just empowering women but actually having all genders represented. So I think the future of gender equity is that when we hear those 2 words, gender equity, we don't necessarily hear women and men, but we understand that gender goes more than that binary, that there are gender nonconforming, gender nonbinary, agender, that there is different expressions and identity of gender. So that's what we wanna do. Use all these lived experiences and empower them to have diverse perspectives and be the workplace be a place where everybody can thrive. So I think this is where the the gen the future of gender equity Brilliant. Joanne Lockwood: Some of my listeners probably are unsure around gender diversity when it comes to non binary identities or agender because agender and non binary is often an umbrella term. It encompasses a whole load of different identities as well, doesn't it? So could you explain a little bit more about what it means to you maybe? Yes. Totally. I will Valentina Jaramillo: first go a little 1 step back and needs to explain that gender identity, gender expression, and sex assigned at birth are 3 different things. So gender identity is the way we see ourselves. Gender expression is the way we show up to the world, the way and this includes the way we dress, the way we talk, and many different things. And, sex assigned at birth is the sex that when we were born and they saw our genitals, the doctor said this is a boy or this is a girl and this is what commonly we see as gender, but it is not, so it is different. And then when we talk about gender diverse people are people who don't necessarily subscribe or what it means to me, right, to necessarily subscribe to this sex assigned at birth as the only information regarding gender identity. Right? So non binary, yes. And they also fall, from my understanding, right, or the way I see it, under the transgender umbrella, which is basically not identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth. And between in in the transgender umbrella, we have people who transition or people who don't necessarily transition whether clinically or or, just socially. Right? And then there's people who definitely do not conform to any of those, known, let's say, categories. Right? Jo myself, I identify as gender nonconforming. When there's a form and their only option is non binary, I will probably choose non binary. However, the words nonconforming resonate more just because I don't wanna conform to any of those norms. Right? Any of those, like, societal norms that have been described. Oh, you are a woman, so you have to be this, or you are a man, so you have to be that. Whether it's the way you look or even it has been taken even to characteristics. So they usually, being more compassionate or more sensible sensitive is feminine and being assertive and direct is masculine, and I don't agree with that. Like, people can be any sort of things and it doesn't have to be directly related to their gender. No. III get it. I understand it. In fact, I'd Joanne Lockwood: I actually, what I I don't understand because it's not me. And I often say this to people that I don't have to understand you. I just have to listen to you and understand that you know who you are, and that's all that matters. I don't have to understand what being gender nonconforming is, what being nonbinary means, what being agender I don't need to understand. I just need to understand that you understand what it means to you. So I I haven't got to go any deeper than that. I just go, great. Fine. Fantastic. Happy to meet you. Because a lot of people really want to try and they wanna try and get it, don't they? They wanna try and analyze it. It's it's not something you can analyze really, is it? And and it's just trusting Valentina Jaramillo: people's experience. Right? I think you you said it correctly. When someone why would you wanna deny me my identity? Right? Like this is how I see the world and how I see myself in this world. Jo when we meet someone and they tell us they are agender, for example, which particularly means they don't believe in gender at all, not as any sort of construction or anything. And that's their experience, and they wanna use their name as their pronouns, or they don't wanna be referred as 1 or the other, or maybe they don't care how they are referred as because it's a personal experience. We have no right on saying, nope. Sorry. You're wrong. You have to choose either belong on this box or that box or maybe these other 2 that we kind of made up. But you have to choose 1, and it's like, well, no. I don't necessarily wanna choose. And as you said, it's about respecting people, trusting them, trusting them what they telling tell you and believing them. So if we wanna bring them back to the gender equity in the future, I think it's just about this. Right? Realizing that people have different perspective, different identities, different experiences of life, and this is what enriches them, and it's gonna bring in a lot of inform like, good information or good ideas and good ways of thinking, different ways of thinking to the workplace. And this will end up being better for the workplace because we already know by now that diverse identities in the workplace bring they increase profit, they retain talent, they increase productivity. So we already know the benefits. Right? It's about just allowing ourselves to really include everyone and not just like, oh, because when men lead men lead, they lead this way. Or when women lead, they lead this way. It's like, okay. No. Everyone has their own experience and they're gonna lead the best way they Joanne, so let's just encourage them to have that journey. It doesn't have to be related because you're a woman, then your characteristics to lead are sensitive, compassionate, soft. Right? Why? Right? Any woman can lean anywhere and it's just the way they truly feel it. Right? So I think by expanding our vision of gender to that of a spectrum and not just a or b or male or female, We just allow more diverse perspective than lived experiences for people to choose from and just bring more ideas and everything, like all the true selves to work so that they can actually thrive. Do you find it, Joanne Lockwood: when you're working with organizations, companies, and they're talking about gender equity, a lot of it is focused around female empowerment. Do you feel lost in that in that language then? Because no 1 is is trying to separate gender beyond the binary, and that's the that's the challenge, isn't it? Yes. It is, and Valentina Jaramillo: I think it's a big challenge. So I think the improvement that has been done on women empowerment is amazing for sure. I am glad it's happening. And I think if we just keep focusing on that, which is what's happening in a lot of places, it's the data they're collecting, it's the when you talk about pay equity, you see the results against women versus men. There's still no even data on gender nonconforming or non binary or other genders out there. Right? So like with everything, when we focus on just 1, we're leaving the other ones behind. If we are able to both broaden our perspectives and empower all gender minorities or all of them, women are gonna benefit. It's not that because we bring the other ones up, then suddenly women start losing all all what they thought. Right? Like, it's that's just impossible. They're gonna keep getting more empowered, more opportunities, equal pay, and everything, which my question because this is what happens when you see the work that companies are doing, the work that many international organizations are doing focuses on women empowerment is super valuable. Like, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate that this work is happening. But then what's gonna happen in 2020 or 50 years from here, we're gonna turn around and look like, oh, there's a big disparity between men, women, and the rest of the population. Right? And it's like, again, big mistake. Right? We should be pulling putting everyone up trying to get to that equity for everyone, and that's where I see the issue that it's not that conversation is still not happening. How do we change Joanne Lockwood: the language that we use to be inclusive of your own identity whilst also recognising the work that's going on around the female empowerment, female mentoring schemes that exclude you by the very title of that name? How how does an organization include you and your identity in their programs? Because when someone is the sex assigned at birth female, assigned gender at birth female, there's still some legacy challenges that people will face because of their assignment at birth that they don't escape later in life by either transitioning or becoming gender agnostic or or or gender nonconforming. So you you still have some legacy traits that you you need empowerment with. So how do we make the language inclusive to recognize what you need as well? It's a good question. And I think Valentina Jaramillo: it it's also a tricky 1 because I'm not sure if if it's just about the language. Right? So 1 of the things that I I know that happens in a lot of corporate or that started to happen is that the the the ERGs, the women ERD was suddenly kind of they they put all the other genders in there, but it was kind of like, oh, we don't know what to do with you, so let's just tie them up here. Right? And maybe that was not the strategic thing to do or if you're gonna do it, maybe it was, but do it consciously. Right? And, again, bearing in mind that there are things in which they can support each other and, like, fight together or not fight, but, like, work to promote better together whether they're and there are also things that, okay, these are very specific to women and these are very specific to gender nonconforming people or non binary people. Right? So they can they can work in some things together or not. But therefore, to the point of the language, I don't know if it's about we just need to call them more gender minorities or because then we have the women who are like, okay, but we've been fighting this for so much. So look, I was born female and I identified female for a very long time because I didn't know better until I always felt like, oh, this is not where I feel, but I didn't know I had a choice. Right? So so I understand I've been there. Like you said, yes, there are some struggles just by the fact of who we are born as female when we we and if we continue to identify as that. And if not, it's not like suddenly, oh, those things that used to happen just moved over and I don't experience them anymore. Right? Then, they they've never disappeared. And I think if we get too too concerned on the language, then we start to lose lose focus of the real world of the real work that we have to do. Right? So I I don't think everyone will ever agree because if we all call it gender we start to talk about gender minorities, let's say, there's probably gonna be a lot of women who are not happy about that and about all the work they've done and they which we know already happens. Right? We know that there's no discussions already happening, and we don't want that. Like, the idea is not, hey. I'm not here to fight you. I really appreciate all the advancement and things that have happened for women because we needed them, and it's it's incredible that they haven't happened before and with 2024, and we still see that the pay gap and we still see not as many women in the in the leadership roles, like, so all good with that. And let's don't forget about the rest. Let's just see how we can bring them together with our action. Like, we are we are all want each other to thrive. Right? So if we start making more wires within the gender world, I think we end up nowhere. Not sure if that answered the question. No. Joanne Lockwood: It's it's it's no. It does. It does. I I was talking to a Joanne masculine friend of mine the other day and he was saying I've always noticed an acquisition of privilege losing people would no longer perceive him or read him as female. And now he he's recognized that he's gained privilege around a voice in a meeting, being listened to, being heard, feeling safer on the streets, being treated in a kind of that bro culture that sort of be called mate and including the male grouping. In fact, so much so that he he he recognized that women now perceive him as a potential threat. So he he has it really acknowledged the difference of of how men and women are perceived in society. Have you have you seen something similar from your lens, if you like, from outside of the gender? Bullshit, if you like. Yes. Valentina Jaramillo: I have to say and and and it's sad because it's realizations I've had recently that that okay. As a as a perceived white I am from Colombia. I don't see myself as white, but I understand I am perceived as white and I I lived as a cisgender woman for many years. I still had some more privileges that I completely lost when I came out as gender non conforming. And some were very easy to notice just the fact that, for example, people don't see me as gender non conforming. They have what they have in their mind and having people completely ignore when I say, yes. I'm gender nonconforming. My pronouns are they, them, and they keep she, she, she, and it's like, no. I'm not she. Like, can you respect me? Oh, but they is plural. And I'm like, yeah. No. They is not plural, you know. Like, and all these things, oh, but you make it so hard. And he's like, take a deep breath. It's not about you. You know? It's about me, but I'm so sorry I made it hard for you. Jo definitely and lately, some of those privileges that I've noticed So I have my my CV, my resume, and I include my pronouns in my resume. And I've applied for a couple of roles, and I haven't gotten any responses. And I've read articles about that. It has been proven how people who include their pronouns and it's they, them pronouns on their resumes don't get as many callbacks, and I'm leaving it. And I'm like, seriously? Like, this is reality. This is the world we live in. It makes me wonder, like, that's why, for example, doing stuff out in the world, putting out information, getting new clients, it just makes everything harder because people are like, yeah. This, I don't understand, so I don't relate. So just go to what I know and I feel safe with. Right? This person challenges might not, like, my conceived way of seeing the world. Like, thank you, but I rather go back to what I know and I feel safe. So yes. Definitely. I do think that definitely happens. Yeah. No. Joanne Lockwood: I I hear what you're saying about the, it's too difficult for people. They it's like, oh, come on. It's like, can you make it easy for me? It's like, well, hang on a minute. It's it's not for me to make it and it does challenge people because people are so ingrained into their their way of speaking, their way of thinking. It's sometimes hard to nudge people into a into a different orbit to think think differently because it's it is. It's it's too much effort. And, yeah. I think it it it it frustrates me that we're in 2024. We've been talking about this for generations and centuries, and yet we're still ingrained. And people wanna put you back in the box, don't they? They wanna they wanna make their assumption, and they want to tell you that they're right and and not listen to you, and then treat you differently because you use those pronouns. And I've actually heard recruiters. I go to a lot of recruitment conferences, and I speak to a lot of recruiters. And there's lots of anecdotes and stories out there how some hiring managers, some recruiters will see pronouns on your LinkedIn profile. And I've actually had people say, well, if I see pronouns on someone's LinkedIn profile, their CV goes straight in the bin. And it's and it's not just about they, them. It's any pronouns on a profile. It's far too woke for them to to Joanne, so they just, I don't want that person in my organization. And throw it out the window. And that's the new you know, we saw that with racist type remarks where people were looking at your photograph and saying, well, that that's not a white person or that's not a woman or that's not a man or something, and then rejecting you from your photograph. Now they're rejecting you for your pronoun. Valentina Jaramillo: Yeah. No. It's quite sad that it's, as you said, 2024 and these things are happening. And I guess that's why we we are here and that's why we continue to do the work. Like, it's it's it's not that hard. Right? And when you actually see people getting it and then they are able to get past their own head and limitation and suddenly understand, like, hey, but that is not about me. It's actually about this person. So it's okay. I can call them whatever they want. Right? Or I can just respect them and it's fine. They are respectful with me. And then you see a change. Jo, again, if I think in the workplace, we're missing that conversation still. You know? There's not not that many places yet, especially, I would say, more typically male driven industries that like oil, I don't know, cars, automobile, things like that that have been usually more, or have been running for a long time and everything, they it's still too narrow minded. And they're struggling to get women parity there, but they're forgetting about the rest of us. And 1 day, they're gonna just turn around and see, like, oh, oops. Again, we have to go back to 0 with this gender equity. So the idea would be to start having those conversations now. At least gathering the data. Right? At least at a minimum, like, okay. This is the data. These are the pay differences. This is the amount of people we have in the workplace. These are not, you know. So at least from there, especially because the generations that are coming are more gender diverse, you know. There's more queer people, queer engender, queer in in their sexuality. So it's just like they have to catch up. Organizations will need to catch up before it's too late. Do you find Joanne Lockwood: sometimes that you have to put yourself back in the box for situations where you're travelling, you're doing something, and it's just it's just too difficult to to push on with who you are and you end up conforming to someone else's rule set because you kinda have to. Do you find that often? Yes. And it's sad and and it's Valentina Jaramillo: hard. And I I last year, we were traveling in Southeast Asia and for the whole year with my with my wife, and we met a lot of people. And, definitely, there were places in in which we were hanging out with westerners. Right? People who were supposedly educated, digital nomads, all these things. No clue or understanding or even the desire to understand what their gender nonconforming was or is and that they could use they, them, pronouns. And it was like, okay. But if this is like, oh, she has she and she and she I'm like, I'm not she, they. Completely oblivious and I don't wanna change and I don't wanna make an effort and whatever. And there there was a moment, there were places in which we weren't staying for long. So there was a moment in which I you know what? This fighting is not even worth it. It's not worth it. I was very lucky that I have my wife and she was doing the fighting most of the time. She was like, they go by them. They go by they them and explaining the differences, and she's an amazing person in the way she explains it and has all the patience and all the love and does it. And at some point, she came to me and she told me I cannot do it anymore. And I was like, well, believe me. That happened to me too. You don't have to. You know, do it when you feel like it and when you feel resourced. But it's a fight that we cannot keep going. And back in the US, where you would think, like again, many of us think, oh, we're however you you wanna call it in a developed country or something. And, again, very many circumstances, I find myself quickly just deciding, you know what? I'm not gonna give it this fight and I try especially if it's short, quick Joanne fast conversations, I try to just yeah. Whatever. I'm not gonna fight you. But it's the the the importance of, like, inclusive language, companies, restaurants. I go to a restaurant with my wife and everyone's ladies, and it's like they should train their their people to say good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone. You know? Like, there's so many ways to call people without gendering them, and we should be doing much better on that and still not happening. Jo, yes, that happens a lot. Many situations and and what I do what I do is I how much energy I have and how long the to to give the the explanation, to try the other person to understand, make them understand how long is the interaction going to be, and if it's going to be more meaningful and it has a possibility of a relationship, a friendship, or something, then it's like, okay. I'm gonna take my time and I'll try it for x amount. If at certain point, they just don't get it. He's like, thank you, but I don't wanna be your friend. Right? Continue this relation. And where they're very short interactions, it's like, okay. Whatever. Just assume the box smile because whatever. Yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm pretty determined to correct everybody that gets it wrong. I mean, it it it happens enough for it to be annoying. And you you say, my wife, she's a a fierce defender, and she'll she'll growl at people and and, she'll she'll fight back. And Jo, yeah, it's it's not as nice to say, you deal with this 1. I I'm I'm just gonna go and sit sit down. It's it's over to you. But, yeah, I I guess as a as a as a trans woman, a binary trans person, where where it's easy for someone it's easy for me to say, actually, it's madam or actually, it's not so or it's not this. It's not and and I can lock them onto a a female gender. It's much easier than or I imagine it's much easier for me is for you to say, actually, Jo. It's not she. It's they. And they go, what? And there's a must be a real kind of they just look blank at you, I'm sure. Yes. Valentina Jaramillo: And and I think it shouldn't happen to you to to you either. I Joanne Lockwood: know. So I think But it does. Yeah. I know. I know. But it's Valentina Jaramillo: like yeah. Well so I think even if we use inclusive language, the people would avoid those circumstances. Right? Because if we just generalize for everyone, like, we we avoid making more people uncomfortable. Right? So or hurting people because it actually hurts. That is the reality. It is. And every Joanne Lockwood: time I'm it's often I find it when I'm commuting by train and you're standing on the platform, and they they announce the train or they say, ladies and gentlemen, the train now arriving or ladies and gentlemen this, ladies and gentlemen that. It is we're so ingrained certainly in British culture. I'm sure many English speaking countries, there's this ingrained politeness of having to say, ladies and gentlemen or sir, madam, where actually, as you said, you can just put a full stop earlier. Hello, full stop, or good morning, full stop. You don't actually have to continue the sentence on with sir, mad, or anything else. You can just say, how are you? But people are so ingrained with the language Joanne there. That's that's the challenge. It's it's getting people to step back and think, I can move the full stop. It's that easy. Yes. Well, Valentina Jaramillo: language is a big thing and I think and what people seem to forget is that languages evolve the same as culture. Right? Google and googling was a world a word that didn't exist and it's now used and we all understand what it means. You know? So there's a lot of words that many words that just came appearing as things were made and appeared. I need I by this, I don't mean that we just appear. Right? But we are starting to to name us and be present and be here Jo people can get used to different things. It's not like, oh, no. Sorry. Jo that language is a very particular thing. I I am from Colombia. I was born in Colombia, and we speak Spanish, and it's even more complicated because it's a gender language. And so the struggle is even harder because when you ask, they ask is for people to use something that is completely new, which is using not a or o as they're used to, but using an e or maybe even an x. Right? And people are having heart attacks and, like, oh my gosh. What's going on? What are you doing, ruining our language? And it's like, not necessarily. I I had the pleasure of reading an article this weekend that my mom sent me from Colombia in which the actual director of of, are writing my stream from the institute Instituto Jose Cuervo, which is the lang the language institute in in Colombia. He is actually explaining why their their course and why the institute the their institute is advocating for inclusive language in Spanish, whether it's an x instead of a or or o or an e, and it's just because language evolves and it changes. And the more we can open it up, the more inclusive we're gonna be and the more open we are to life and to people experiences. So it was kind of like, oh, okay. A little of of love came through that article. But, yeah, it's just about wanting to change and about I seriously, I I sometimes, like, why is it so hard for people? Because the only thing I'm asking them like, I'm a person and I want respect the same as you do and the same as they do. Right? So it's just like, okay. You wanna be call if you wanna be call or if your name is whatever. My name is Valentina, and people come and call me Jo. Well, no. My name is Valentina. What can I do? You know? Please call me Valentina. So it's kind of the same thing. Right? Like, it's just respect for each other and seeing each other for who we are and just letting us be without especially if we're not harming anyone. Right? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, I was talking to someone the other day, I think, and they were saying that English is a really difficult to let learn language to learn if you're learning it as a second language or third language. It's really complicated given all the rules and or the lack of rules sometimes, all the duplicate words and spellings. But it must be really hard as a as a person who is gender non conforming, living in a gendered language world. You know, you've mentioned the and I'm not sure if this is Spanish or Portuguese, but it's depending on if it's male or female. And every verb and noun is kind of gendered, and you have change the ending. As you said, o or a. I was talking to someone in Poland, and the Polish language also has constructs like that. And even what you can call yourself has to come off a list the government provides. You can change your name. And it has to end in an a if you're female or not an a. I think it's an a a or not common what what it is if you're a male. But there is no kind of rule set around non binary or gender nonconforming because you have to has to be on this list or this list. Yep. Yeah. And it's And and Polish so my wife is Polish. That's a Valentina Jaramillo: coincidence. Ah, okay. So they have but they at least have a new term, like, a a neutral term. So so which they use for things, which is not a good example, but at least they're used to. Right? They either for babies, it's the neutral. And, again, yeah, the nouns and everything gets gender, but at least it's a concept that exists. They kind of understand that neutral term. In Spanish, origado is Portuguese, but it's the same Portuguese French, they're all gender language Joanne you have to there is not that possibility, right, so people are like, well, Jo. That just doesn't exist or it sounds funny or yeah. It sounds funny because it's a new word. I guess I didn't I'm thinking a cellular phone probably sounded funny at the beginning when we just started using them. And now cell phone is super common and everyone knows what a cell phone is and no 1 would even think about questioning why did was it called cellular, you know. Joanne Lockwood: Jo It's quite it's quite easy in English to write a a gender neutral email or or statement. I mean, the intro I read out today is gender has they, them, their pronouns throughout it. If you were to write that in in Spanish or another gendered language, how could you Joanne how could you do that? Would would that work? So that's the Valentina Jaramillo: struggle. Right? Because in English English, yes has genders in the does it has she and he and in the pronouns, but, the the if let's say, if it's a pretty boy or a pretty girl, pretty is still the same. Right? In in Spanish, if if you if you wanted to say the the actual and let's put another example, Height. Right? A tall girl or a tall boy, it's tall. Right? In Spanish, it's or Joanne for gender nonconforming, well, the they wanna put an e or we would put an e, But it's something that all until recently has not been used. It is trying to be more and more and more and more installed and depending again, II1 of the reasons I have a hard time going back to my country is because of the language and because the people that surround me there, not necessarily the most woke people, and I have to change it. However, I do have a group of friends that are very woke, and they do their effort, and they do it, and by now, they're used to. My wife is fluent in Spanish, and maybe just because she's it's not her first language or whatever, but she never gets it wrong. She always use constantly. She even corrects me if I make a mistake. Right? So, again, I mistakes I make mistakes too, so it's not about that. It's about the intent of wanting to to try something different. And the excuse is like, oh, that's just crazy. That doesn't exist. That's not grammatically correct or anything. And if yeah. Again, language evolves. It doesn't mean it cannot change. These things were not talked about before, and that's why I had a hard time growing up in Colombia because this was not a possibility. You know? When I I was born, they told my parents this is a girl and this is a package of the way I was supposed to be just because I was assigned a girl when I was born. Right? And it never felt right. It never did, and neither did men, boy. Right? But I never knew there was this I can be just anything and it doesn't really matter. I don't have to be this or that and prescribed as this or that. And my own experience at some point, I thought, okay. I'll conform to being a woman but in my own terms. And I that kind of did it for a while until the day I was able to find out, like, I it doesn't matter how old I am. This is who I am. I felt seriously out of a box, and it was the happiest day of my life. Just like, oh, I don't have to conform. It's their problem. And I was 40 years old and who cares? This is the moment I'm free, you know? Like, I'm actually out of a cage. And if you cannot handle it, so sorry. Right? And this has been a journey to get to this point of not apologizing for being who I am. Right? Or not, but actually just being myself. When when you were saying that Joanne Lockwood: that, you you misgender yourself, get it wrong yourself, I was I was laughing on the inside because I I often misgender myself, and it's you know, you live for 40, 50, 60 years of your life with a certain phraseology and and and rule book in your head, which is why I I'm very tolerant of others because I I'm I'm not perfect with me. And, also, I would like your wife, my wife is probably more accurate than I am. She gets it right all the time, and we sometimes joke about it. I go, duh. If it doesn't make you less valid, the fact you get it wrong yourself doesn't make you less valid. And I've I've heard people say, well, you're not really a woman then if you keep getting it wrong. I went, I am. It's just it's linguistic. Some somersaults. You can't our brains aren't always able to to to pivot on this stuff, and I which is why I completely understand people who struggle because I I struggle sometimes. Not often, but often enough. Yeah. I think it's about making the effort. I think that's what the Valentina Jaramillo: key and that's what I try to teach people. But I think that's where that's what the other hard part. We and corporate world and everything, it wants to be so perfect Joanne people want to just get it right every time and everything that they rather not do anything. Right? So you know what? This is too hard. I'm not even gonna try. Because what if I make a mistake? What if I hurt this person? What if I get it wrong and I misgender them? And it's like, no. What I try to tell people, particularly with me, I just wanna see that you care and that you try, not that you decide to choose what my identity is. Right? Like, if if you we're talking and we're amused by mistake, say she whatever. Turn day and move on. Nothing nothing happens. Right? We all may make mistakes. Even even I make mistakes when I talk about me in Spanish and, like, it happens. So it's not about that, but it's about the intent about people. Like, okay. I see you. I respect you, and I'm gonna do my best to try. Right? And we know that there are lots of ways for people to get better with pronouns, like practicing what, with my wife a long, long time ago before any even I transitioned that we would just name gender things at our house just to get used to using the different genders. Right? And just they they they they they, and we would just practice and then you start getting it into your head. So it's it's about that, but it's the intent. And I think this is kind of the idea with gender equity. We can make mistakes still, but let's all go to allow everyone to thrive. And yeah. Okay. You made a mistake. You learned the lesson. You're trying. Let's go to the next. You know? Let's start to talk to have these conversations. Let's stop being afraid. Like, we exist and we are part of the the corporate corporate world too, and we wanna work and we wanna have an impact, so just invite me to the conversation. Right? Invite us to the conversation. I think Joanne Lockwood: 1 of the trickiest things my wife and I and also my family, I suppose, had to deal with was how to refer to me within the family. So we got married 37 years ago, so we were married a long time. And I was always a husband. So when I when I transitioned, we started Marie got to a point Marie is my wife. We got to a point where she couldn't refer to me as husband because it just looked ridiculous. We're in a shop or something. Oh, and my husband's she got she she just found it awkward herself, but she just couldn't do it. So then we started using well, she started using the word partner. And then she found that that didn't reflect how she saw me, because partner often is associated with being not married. Or so she wanted to reinforce the fact she was married. So she now uses wife purely because it it describes that that we're married, and she feels quite quite stay for that. My mom calls me her daughter, which is quite good, but my our 2 children call me dad because it's fine with me. It doesn't actually bother me that much. And and if it makes them happy and our relationship is strong, really doesn't matter. So, yeah, it's it's a really crazy environment where my wife's using she, her pronouns. Our daughter's using the odd he, him, and dad. And it's kind of it's a whole mix of stuff going on. And it's he just has to Jo, it doesn't matter sometimes, does it? No. It doesn't matter. I and I think that's Valentina Jaramillo: that would be the idea, right, to get to these places where it doesn't matter. And that at work, it doesn't matter and we can all just be, but, unfortunately, I don't think that's where we are because I still think, well, there's a lot of hate out there for people like us. Right? There's a lot of unconscious bias that people if if you have a CV that has your pronouns, whatever they are, I'm just gonna throw it away. If I see it on LinkedIn, you are also not valid into my part. You know, like, all these things. So until we don't finish, like, or don't do the work, unfortunately, I think it will still matter. So it's this tricky how how to get to that balancing where it doesn't matter. Right? Yeah. There's some quite sort of the work you're Joanne Lockwood: doing with organizations then in, in promoting gender equity and also the the DEIB consultancy you're doing with organizations. So what sort of are the priorities you're working on at the moment? Valentina Jaramillo: I so I work definitely on on helping them get their gender equity strategies, and to be inclusive in their gender equity strategy. With many, what we are starting to do is just have that conversation and to to start gathering the data. Right? Because many of the I've been working mostly with nonprofits, and they're not huge but between, yeah, medium or small nonprofits. And they don't have a lot of this data on their own. Many don't even have gender nonconforming employees, but they do support gender nonconforming people or gender nonconforming people come to like, part of the people they help or work with, and therefore, they just need to be aware and know these things. So gathering the data, making sure that they are using inclusive policies, that people use inclusive language for everyone, that trying to to start to build even in these small spaces, that ground start. Right? So that when it keeps advancing and they hire end up hiring someone that is gender nonconforming, that person's gonna be happy and actually have no issues entering the workplace because it's been set up for them. Right? It's been an easy transition. And, also, at the same time, making sure that they have and they're complying and getting better even with their women gender equity. Right? Like, with the women in power and all these things that we know. And I try to advocate, and this is because a personal experience, a lot for gender neutral restrooms. It is a simple thing, but it is also not a simple thing. So just making sure if there's ways in which these organizations can implement those, especially the ones that have, like, these facilities available for their customers or the people they support. So just having these options. But I think what I mostly work with is the policies, making sure that all the language is inclusive, that they have policies to cover all the spectrum and that they don't you know, like pregnancy, it's covered for everyone. You know? Like, these kind of things that they don't say women health, but, like, reproductive health. Things things like that because not only women can get pregnant. Right? So that they all these sort of things are inclusive and the strategy. And, again, the collecting of the data because there is no that not a lot of data occurring. Do you find that Joanne Lockwood: do you find that changing the language like that alienates women who have a traditionist view, and they can get quite angry around rewriting traditionally female terms like pregnancy and and childbirth and motherhood and birthing, all all this all the language around menopause as well. Very traditionally female gendered, and then when we start to rewrite that language, I've I've experienced many women getting disenfranchised and getting angry by trying to erase their femininity. How do you how do you kinda get around that? Well, I think, unfortunately, this Valentina Jaramillo: is part of the of, the oppressive systems by showing that if they remove the word that that women let's say, that women are only women and that what gives them the power is that they are the it's women health and this is their thing and this is their status, but this is the part of the oppressive system. If you are not this, then you don't exist. And it's like, Jo. You are equally feminine and you've got your power and you still just realize that it is reproductive health because it can be other people whose gender is not women, right, and I think it's kind of a hard 1 because it does happen and it is also sad that it happens because that's not the purpose. Right? Like, the the purpose when we advocate for using lactating rooms instead of the maternity room at work, It doesn't mean that we don't want women there or anything like that. Right? It's just like, let's broaden our minds. However, oppressive systems wants us to believe that. And again, I do believe that the the patriarchy and the oppressive system wants us to keep fighting because if they make us fight against each other, they call the power. Right? Whether we unite and we are all like, yes. It's reproductive health and, lactating rooms and all these words and we just try to change language to be more inclusive, they're gonna start losing and losing and losing their power, and I'm not sure they can handle it. So I think it's about that. Yeah. III agree. But I do I do see Joanne Lockwood: or hear lots of people getting worried about the erasure of what it means to be a woman. And a lot of the vociferous Joanne trans rhetoric is often directed at at trans women for being seen as invaders into female spaces as being threats. And it's so it's it's this is concerted voice of of anti transness, if you like, around trying to protect what it means to be a woman, and that's that's part of the challenge, isn't it? And when we're trying to take gender out of the equation, there are people trying to force it back in. But I would ask those Valentina Jaramillo: people because I think when I don't know how many people have really asked what does it mean to be a woman and get an answer that is, you know or or a man for that matter. Right? And and it ends up being a social construct. Right? Like, if you if you really go through the work, it's a social construct. And you can choose to this is how I identify and it's fine and it's beautiful and everything. But to people who are using it, in this case, women who are using this rhetoric against trans women, it's like, seriously? Like, what what part of your femininity is being aggravated because of a trans woman? I understand that there's a big rhetoric around the bathrooms. That's why I say it's it's a simple 1, but it's not so simple because of the danger the women are in, and it's like, what are you talking about? Like, seriously? I think it's, oh, I forgot his name. The comedian South African comedian, Noah Trevor Noah. He has a great sketch in which he talks about, like, seriously? Are people just waiting out there for for for the bathroom to see who goes in? Like, it does it's not gonna happen. Right? There and what actually happens is that there's a lot of transgender women being hit, tortured, aggravated, etcetera, for having to use a bathroom that does not align with the sex that they that they choose. Right? So I think it's the opposite and and I know this rhetoric exists, but my invitation to these people would be just like, what part of the femininity is attached to a transgender fem like, femininity? The the relationship for me, I don't see it. So I would invite people to just really try and see why would they affect it more or not. And the same with using reproductive health and menstrual products. You know? Just I I think that when we do better for a specific group, we do better for all. Right? When 1 of the underrepresented groups, we do better for everyone. Yeah. We've we've seen loads of studies out Joanne Lockwood: there around the pink tax. Your your female products generally are more expensive per ounce, aren't they? You know, if you wanna buy women's shaving foam, it's the same shaving foam as men's shaving foam. It still got aloe vera in it. It still got the same stuff. It's just got a pink pink label on the outside. It costs more pink razor blades, pink pink anything. It's got it's more expensive proportion. So it's a marketing thing. But, yeah, you talk about social construct. It's also a marketing construct, isn't it? That we we're trying to sell to specific people with a brand, with a with a kind of visual representation, and the world's kind of geared up around that kind of that binary product. Valentina Jaramillo: Yeah. It's sad. And and again, systems of oppression, capitalism is 1 of those. Right? And it's about we wanna sell more, we want more money, who cares about your liberty and your right to be? This is what money is, what rules, and I think this is part of the things we we need to change and take into account. Right? Hey. You can sell whatever you want for whatever price you want, still respect people. Right? And you I'm I'm I'm probably sure that they can come up with a lot of other marketing ways to charge us more for products. It's just gonna take creativity. So maybe they should embrace diversity because it sparks creativity and they will find other ways to to market us, not based on that construct. Talk about marketing there. You know, we're smack Joanne Lockwood: bang in the middle of pride season, you know, that, rainbows everywhere, people celebrating their love. But it's kind of a lot of it is pink washing. A lot of it is performative. So what do you how do you call it out? How do you how do you work with organizations to make them a little bit more authentic around their, their advocacy, if you like? I think that the key thing Valentina Jaramillo: is that they so pride shouldn't be and we've seen it and we've said it a lot, but pride shouldn't be just about June or whatever month because, for example, here in Atlanta is in October, but what you know, like, it shouldn't be around June or about that particular month. So I believe that companies who are doing the right thing are doing it all through the year, not just changing their logos the 1st June and then changing them back. Right? That you actually know these companies are walking their walk all the time constantly. You see them advocating for their employees. You see posts on LinkedIn. You see their people. You you see them hire different diversity. You see that the people who work at this company have their pronouns on LinkedIn. You see that they that they are doing courses. They're trying to learn. These people are definitely wanting a change also. Right? And these companies want that. And I think the this year, it was clear that many people it was rainbow washing and it is still because many companies dropped their support and we were able to see I don't know what your thought is, but I think that even on LinkedIn, there's less and less companies who just change their their their logo to pride logo. I'm surprised. I go watching their accounts and everything, and I haven't seen as many as, like, let's say, 2 years ago, everyone who had the pride flag on their on their logos. Right? So it's about the we end up knowing, right, who just puts out a product on on on pride, and then you'd never see them the rest of the of the time. Right? Or you never pride? Like, what's that? They you look at their at their board and everyone is white cis men. No 1 puts their pronouns on their on their on their LinkedIn profiles or anywhere in their websites. So I think we by now, we can start to notice and really see those companies and if they haven't figured it out, and they will probably start to see it in their revenue also because and in the way they attract people and talent and retain their talent because, and again, every generation is becoming even more queer. Right? Like, Gen z Gen z, it's more queer. I don't know what it's like 3 out of 5 or something to be considered they consider themselves queer. So it's gonna have to stop the the rainbow washing. Right? We wanna see the real thing and real action and that you are committed. And another thing, I think, which is important, and I know it's happening in the UK and here in the US also, there's a lot of backlash politically right now for the community. And I think companies who have power, because they do, and here in the US, companies are allowed to lobby, They should be lobbying for for trans and LGBTQ rights and not just for how to sell more. You know, but they should actually be lobbying for our rights. Yeah. No. I I yeah. I agree. Joanne Lockwood: And it's I'm I'm quite charitable when it comes to, companies changing their logos because for me, it it communicates in 2 directions. 1 is to the outside world, to the public, to their customers, to to part of a marketing brand, but also communicates internally. So I'm thinking about their their queer staff, their trans staff, their non binary staff, looking up and seeing their company has taken the initiative to change their logo to they feel seen and heard and amplified internally. So I'm I'm quite charitable that organizations that do it at the bequest, if you like, of their staff network, the ERG, their pride network, I think it's a good thing because it it shows that they're being heard and listened to and being amplified. It's ones that do it where they're they're literally trying to sell product off the off the back of it. But I think if it's authentic and representative of their staff, I think I think that's a good motivation. And I also recognize that it takes a lot of people to change a logo on a company. Marketing, sign off, communications Yeah. Legal. Yeah. Just think about the number of people that have to get involved, change the company's logo, and I think for them to have done that, as they're a big global organization, they must have put some effort into it internally. So I I respect the effort it takes, provided you say, there's some authenticity about that. It's not just not just for June, not just for July. It's it's 365. And, yeah. But IIII do have a lot of empathy for for what organizations are trying to do. I'd rather they did that and show allyship to their staff than not do it at all or or say to their staff, no. No. No. We can't do that. Jo, yeah, it's it's trying to balance it out, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I agree that it has to Valentina Jaramillo: be authentic, but I think employees inside know. I think precisely it's them who know whether that company was authentic or not. Because if I work for a company, I'm an LGBTQIA identified person, and I work for a company that suddenly changes their their logo to Pride to the Rainbow logo. Right? But I don't see anyone represented. I actually am closeted because I don't feel safe. No 1 ever asked for pronouns. None of the things. Then, you know, like, the it's not authentic. And those people, those employees are the wanna the ones who are gonna let us know, right, that that that's not the truth. And when you work for a company who changes the logo and you are part of the community and you are like, oh, yes. Here, they see me. They value me. But not because they changed the logo, but because the ERG is strong. They invest in us. They all these things. And he's like, okay. I'm happy that they do it, and I'm proud to work for this company. Right? So, again, it's kind of companies that retain their talent and all the things we know that happen when these things are authentic and not just to check a box. Jo if you Joanne Lockwood: have to come up with 1 yeah. You got magic wand, what would you change? What would you what's your what would be your top priority for an organization to think about around gender equity? What was your thoughts? Valentina Jaramillo: If I if I had a magic wand. Well, I think different definitely, we there's a lot to do around, still pay equity for everyone, not just white cisgender women. But actually because if you see the numbers and differences between also white cisgender women when they will get parity to black cisgender women or or Latino cis cisgender women. The numbers are completely different. What about transgender women? What about transgender men? What about gender nonconforming people? So really, really parity and transparency of payment for everyone. Like, it it shouldn't be biased by any characteristic that is not basically talent and what you do at work. Right? Productivity. And I think there's big opportunity also in in just getting starting to gain the data. Right? So I would suggest people the same that they started to work with gender, with women equity. I would do for all other genders and starting to have this talk and invite conversation and people to to have the actual conversations. I think sometimes it's just people are afraid, again, like we mentioned before, to to be to make a mistake or to not say the correct thing. And I would just ask organizations to not be afraid to have those conversations because by talking is the only way we will learn and make an advancement. Right? If we if we decide that we need to be perfect before doing anything, we don't do anything. Right? So it's better to just start and have those conversations and and start the work even if your company don't or you are not sure if your company has a gender nonconforming person on in in your on your staff or not. That's a Joanne Lockwood: great great proof of advice and, and grace great starting point if you're not there already, so thank you. Valentina, how do people get a hold of you? It's been a fascinating conversation. Yes. Thank you, Valentina Jaramillo: Jo. So people can get a hold of me in on LinkedIn. They can find me with my name, Valentina, and my last name, Jaramillo, so altogether. And Jo that's J-A-R-A-M-I-L-L-0. And, yeah, just on LinkedIn. That's the best place to to find me. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. A fascinating conversation. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, 1 episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.