--- title: "Reframing Our World" episode: 126 date: 2024-09-12 guest: "Lina Jankauskaite" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/126-reframing-our-world audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-126/audio.mp3 --- # Reframing Our World Joanne Lockwood is joined by psychologist and holistic life coach Lina Jankauskaite to explore how reframing our interpretations of people and events can reduce frustration and create more empowered choices. Using everyday examples like road rage, conflict, and technology stress, they unpack how language shapes thought patternsand how small shifts in wording can move us from a passive, disempowered stance into taking ownership of our reactions. Lina shares her journey from rural Lithuania to the UK and reflects on how diversity, community, and belonging shaped her outlook. Together, they discuss self-leadership as a practice built on self-awareness, resilience, and the willingness to notice defensiveness before it takes over. The conversation moves into leadership and accountability: why humility and vulnerability build trust, how admitting mistakes can strengthen relationships, and why leaders are better viewed as guides rather than all-knowing masters. Joanne connects these ideas to lessons from her entrepreneurial training and the importance of personal responsibility, planning, and learning rather than blame. They also touch on recognising when to step away from toxic dynamics, finding closure, and using difficult experiences to reveal patterns that can be worked on. The episode leaves listeners with practical, repeatable strategies for reframing, taking responsibility, and creating healthier interactions that support more inclusive environments. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — As a dreamer, I aim to impact. - 06:00 — Hometown in Lithuania, now small, fond memories. - 12:34 — Friendly, helpful people made navigating easy. - 20:19 — Overcoming victim mentality takes strength and resilience. - 23:32 — Reframe situations to take control of feelings. - 30:38 — Language can help reframe habitual perceptions. - 37:03 — Teenagers influenced by schools to conform, seek reasons. - 42:59 — Systems are run by people, not independent. - 47:09 — Vulnerability connects and strengthens human relationships. - 53:10 — Coach overcame imposter syndrome through Buddhist guidance. - 55:52 — Embrace being outclassed, become a guide. - 01:02:13 — Stepping away from toxic relationships, finding closure. - 01:05:59 — Expressing gratitude to listeners, encouraging community involvement. ## Key takeaways - The concept of perceiving people's actions through a positive lens and strategies for reframing difficult situations to reduce frustration. - The significance of personal responsibility in planning and avoiding potential issues, and viewing mistakes as learning opportunities. - The practice of self-awareness and resilience in changing the victimhood mentality and promoting self-leadership. - Overcoming defensiveness as a barrier to self-leadership and the importance of systemic change beginning with the individual. - The impact of admitting mistakes and embracing humility to connect more deeply with others and foster effective leadership. - Techniques for using empowering language to rewire the brain and alter thought patterns, thereby transforming disempowering behaviours. - Recognising and stepping away from toxic situations and relationships, and achieving closure for personal peace and growth. ## FAQs ### What is the main focus of this episode? The episode focuses on perceiving people's actions through a positive lens and reframing difficult situations to reduce frustration. It emphasises personal responsibility, leadership, and the importance of humility and self-awareness in personal growth and relationships. ### Who is the guest in this episode, and what is her background? The guest is Lina Jankauskeite, a psychologist, holistic life coach, and speaker originally from Lithuania. She moved to the UK at 20 and has since found a sense of belonging, particularly through her diverse work environment at the airport. ### What are some strategies for reframing difficult situations discussed in the episode? The episode suggests assuming people generally do not intentionally wrong others. Strategies include planning ahead, taking personal accountability, viewing mistakes as learning opportunities, and using empowering language to change thought patterns. ### How does the episode address the concept of personal responsibility? Joanne emphasises the importance of taking control over decision-making and being accountable for one’s choices. She shares how an entrepreneur course taught her the value of personal responsibility in becoming an effective leader. ### What barriers to self-leadership are highlighted? Lina discusses defensiveness as a primary barrier to self-leadership, explaining that it comes from the fear of admitting mistakes and feeling judged. She advocates for humility and constant reflection to break this barrier. ### How can listeners contact Lina Jankauskeite? Listeners can contact Lina via LinkedIn or email her at redefineandrewire.co.uk. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 126 with the title, reframing our world. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Lina Jankauskeite. Lina is a trained psychologist, a certified holistic life coach, psychoeducator, trainer, a speaker, and a dreamer. When I asked Lina to describe her superpower, she said, it is her undefeatable belief that in humans, both individually and collectively, that at their core are good, giving, willing, and caring. Hello, Lena. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Well, thank you for Lina Jankauskeite: having me. Absolute pleasure. We we did practice your Joanne Lockwood: surname a couple of times in the in the green room before we came on. I was determined to get it right. So reframing our world, you've obviously got a a rich heritage and past. Tell us about yourself and what you believe in. Lina Jankauskeite: In terms of, I was gonna say in terms on who I am. I suppose there's those sort of demographic or biographical things, which is, I originate from Lithuania. I came to the UK nearly 20 years ago. And I I suppose I matured in the UK. I was 20 when I came, and I matured here in the UK. And I I can hardly remember myself for what I was before because I think I changed quite a bit seeing the world around me, been exposed to a lot more in the UK than I have been in Lithuania because I grew up in a small, small town. Provincial, very small town. So I always say that whilst Lithuania is always going to be my home, the UK is really what made me up to this point what I am. And, yes, as you said, I am a dreamer, and I dream about exactly that. Like, the tar title of the episode really speaks to it really well. I I want, as cliche as it sounds, I want to change the world to leave that little bit better place than I found it. So however little I can contribute to it, it all adds up. Again, loads of cliches, but, I just truly believe in that. And, I'll I'll try to do my best in in that changing of the world by helping people to really, to to see the opportunities on on how they can contribute to changing the world. And I know it sounds really abstract, but that's just because it's a big it's it's it's a big game to change the world. So, yeah, at the minute, it sounds a bit abstract, but there's many things I'm doing. As you said, I'm a coach. I fancy myself, a self leadership coach because I think that's where it all starts, from self leadership because that's where how you relate to the rest of the world, your environment, to to the fellow human, to to the tree out, you know, outside. It all comes down to that. How you relate to the rest of the world starts with self leadership. So I think that's my starting point in in changing the world. Interesting. Joanne Lockwood: My knowledge of Lithuania is is tiny. I think I was I went for a, I think, a 3 day conference. This is probably best part, 20 years ago, so probably by the time you're still there. It's so the capital is, Vilnius. Is that right, Vilnius? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Vilnius. And it's a very old traditional kind of Baltic y sort of state and, yeah, large squares, cobbles, ancient architecture, beautiful construction churches, and things. I remember it being very iconic when I was there, but I'd say it was mainly a quick tour of the center and a tour of the nightlife and a tour of, had some a couple of boring meetings to attend as well. So, yeah, it was a a quick in and out. I'd love to go back. I spent I spent a bit of time in Estonia, mainly in Tallinn and and the surrounding area, and I did pop to, Viga once as well in, in Latvia. So, yeah, it's, yeah. I I I've always got a fun place in my heart for those regions because of the people. I've I've found the people really warm, easy to connect to, and not at all how I imagined. It's very forward thinking certainly in the last 10, 15 years. A lot of tech startups and developing economy there. Yeah. That is a it's it's phenomenal. And you're right. You you must have had this, complete transformation about how you saw the world, as you say, coming from rural Lithuania to to entering sort of like the UK and the hustle and bustle of of of of the hell on life, if you like? Lina Jankauskeite: It it was. It was very much so because, the town I grew up in is considered the 8th or the 9th biggest town in Lithuania, but because Lithuania is tiny. I think the population when I was still there, it was about 35,000, which now has dropped to below 30,000. And like I said, it's considered 8th or 9th biggest town in Lithuania, so just for people get the idea of scale. And and it was very I mean, I I I had a great time growing up, and, and I'm still very fond of my hometown even though there's no one and nothing there now for me when I go back. But, yeah, when I first because when I first arrived in the UK, I found myself in London as most of us do. So the contrast was was wow. However, what's the the what I didn't expect was because I knew Britain through watching because I was an hard die hard fan of Sherlock Holmes series. So I expected it to arrive on the 4th September. Actually, I can't remember the year, but I remember the date. It was the 4th September. And I was expecting it to be, you know, this narrow streets, cobble streets as well that's sort of grayish, darkish with this mist you know, everything covered in mist. And they arrived, and it was, like, 30 yard degrees. I think it's one of the hottest summers or hottest ends of summers that's, you know, on record at the time. And I was like, woah. What the hell? That's not what I expected. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, there are parts of London that are sort of narrow streets and cobbles, especially in the kind of the square mile rush in the city. There's a real kind of intricate little cobbled areas. You know, a lot of London got rebuilt after the fire, London after the war, and things like this. But, yeah, you can still find those old streets, but, yeah, we're not, even even the mythical, 2 was it 221 or whatever is, Baker Street? I think it's the 221 B. Is it Baker Street or whatever the address is? That's in a quite a wide road. It's in a row. I mean, yeah, the row it's in is is very old traditional Victorian type of architecture. I don't know if you've done the Sherlock Holmes Museum. I did the Sherlock Holmes Museum or the that visit that place, probably 10, 15 years ago. It's it's a it's a good little good opportunity to sort of see Victorian life if you'll help people for the Victorian era lived because it's still kitted out in that way. But yeah. No. No. I don't think we're we're we're we're probably not at all like our our stereotypes you see in the movies or on the telly. The yes. In my experience, Lina Jankauskeite: not I mean, the obviously, they are it's hard to tell because when I first came, like I said, I was 20. So I knew very little. It was it was going to be a 6 months break, and then I was going to go back and reenroll uni, which I quit because I didn't like what I chose. So being 20 years old, I didn't really care about many things, you know, that that that I do now. And so I don't think I had any I don't think I arrived with any stereotype in my head in terms of the lifestyle. I think it was just that picture that I held in my head, you know, this darkish, gloomish, mistish kind of, you know, from Sherlock Holmes. But in terms of everything else, I I don't think I had any preconceptions. But like I said, I'm struggling to remember myself, what I was like back then. But it was yes. Because I found myself on Oxford Street. So Jo, yes, that was, but but it was what I found. I because I didn't I didn't have any preconceptions or not that I remember of. The only emotion that I feel I don't know emotion, feeling, not entirely sure how to describe that, was awe. I was in awe of of how many people, of of, yeah, of the of the hustle and bustle. I I I've never seen anything like it in my life. But for me, it was just amazement and, like, wow. Oh my god. I cannot believe this. I cannot believe I'm here. And, yeah, and just everyone Joanne there's masses of people going around their business, and it's just yeah. The pace, I I think, yeah, I was just in awe. I I would imagine, and this Joanne Lockwood: is just me having a guess here, that there must be 30 or 1000 people in that Oxford Street area at any one time, which is bigger than the population of of the your hometown, and it's so kind of incredible. You know? And I guess coming from a town where there were so few people, you kinda know everybody or you or you're you're connected with people in some way. It's, you know, most of the streets, you know, most of the locations and suddenly coming to I don't understand, by any stretch, that means that, UK is a huge country. It's not. London London does feel quite huge when you're in the middle of it sometimes. But coming to a a a city that is, yeah, massively bigger than what you expected, did you find it unfriendly? Did you find it unwelcoming or or just, as you say, in awe? I Lina Jankauskeite: didn't, actually. Not at all because I no. I didn't, actually. I just, yeah, I didn't get that feeling. Yes. I was just in awe. So I was more I think I I was more at the time, I found myself in the position of observer rather than a participant in that. So I would literally I was a heavy smoker at the time. Not anymore. But I was a heavy smoker at the time, so I really enjoyed for the first few days in London to just sit either on the small park bench. You know, the small parks that, are off the major streets, which you can still people watch when sitting there. You can see them. So, obviously, if you go to Hyde Park, you see a lot of people in Hyde Park, but you don't see these busy hustle and bustle streets so clearly. So I would really enjoy just sit on the park bench and just just to watch the people who I by having a cigarette and a Red Bull at the time. And so and I think because I I just found myself I I can't say I put myself in that position. I just found myself in that position that I was an observer of the world around me. I didn't I didn't encounter or I didn't perceive any unfriendliness or or unapproachability. And as far as I remember, you know, the you know, when you ask for directions or you ask for which bus you need to take to get there in there, people were very willing to to share the information with you, and and and they wouldn't even in that hustle and bustle, they would really actually stop rather than just say, you're right. So straight and then fifth right and walk away. It wasn't like that. People would actually still take that extra 10 seconds, extra 15 seconds to say, right. So, yeah, if you carry on straight, you know, don't you're gonna need to take a 5th ride. You know, just you're gonna see this in the shop and go around there. So they've really put the effort into, you know, even because at the time I mean, obviously, I will always have the accident. In that time, my accident was very heavy. And I didn't for one moment, I didn't perceive any anything. I was I was an observer to begin with, but when I was a participant in terms of interacting with people and with the environment, I I didn't yeah. It was it was fine. It was good. It was it was lovely. Jo Joanne Lockwood: as you say, you you you're an observer before you participated in, I guess, if you're there for a break, you know, 6 months, you you weren't looking to necessarily come here and reside. How did you because you must have started to develop that sense of belongingness to where you were living, to what you were doing. Because if you if you just stayed an observer, you would have felt the connection in order to stay here. Is that is that true? Lina Jankauskeite: You know what? The way you said it, it makes a lot of sense. I would have never I I would have never I never thought about it in that way, but that is absolutely true. Yeah. Because so I came I came because I quit uni. So I finished school. I quit uni because I didn't like what I chose. And I thought, right, I have to wait until the next academic year starts. And English is the only language that I know. I know I want to see the world a little bit. So I'll come to the UK for about 6 months then go back and reenroll. So that was the intentional sort of intention of or the plan. But I really I enjoyed myself in that diverse very because I worked my first job was, working in a in a restaurant at Stansted Airport. And out of 99 members of staff, there was 1 British person and 1 Irish person, and the rest were probably from, like, 30 different countries. And so I can't say I learned much English there because, obviously, we all, you know, we all communicated in our broken English at the time. I probably built a vocabulary, but, you know, just the vocabulary. But, it was it was a wonderful experience because I was I had never been exposed to different cultures. I had never been exposed to different views of life, and I've never been exposed to different, well, metaphysical positions, if you will. And it was a very it was a very beautiful experience. I think maybe partly maybe I found myself belonging. And I I don't know. I I don't know. I'm just sort of analyzing in my head now as I on the spot. Maybe the reason why I've started feeling, like, right, I I wanna stick around for a bit longer and see where it takes me. Because partly it was a very enriching experience. And I suppose maybe my first job in the UK, we probably connected because we were all immigrants, and we were all some were trying to make it. Some of us were like myself just here for possibly a brief break and seeing the world. So I don't know. But, yes, as as you said it, now I'm thinking that's I must have found that belonging because 20 years on, nearly, I'm still here. No. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. So you you mentioned earlier about self leadership being one of the the sort of key fundamentals for, well, taking personal responsibility in in your your your passion for changing the world. Because you have to start with yourself, don't you, to change the world? Absolutely. And Lina Jankauskeite: you absolutely have to start with yourself. And I, we just recently, we had you know, this is gonna be where I'm gonna go off on tangent so much, so feel free to just yeah. You have to it's very cliche as well. A lot of people, oh, yeah. We heard that before. Start with yourself. What you know, whatever. What does that actually mean? And a lot of people are really, really disempowered. And they, I mean and this is obviously this is not either or. It's a spectrum of the level of disempowerment. And a lot of people, they they won't perceive themselves as that. We won't perceive them ourselves as that. But I I found myself I found myself often feeling like I have no control of things. And this is where when you have no control of things, you can feel disempowered. You wouldn't necessarily put that particular name of it, like, I feel disempowered. We we use all sorts of language to describe that. Like, oh, this can't be done, or, well, it doesn't work like that, or, well, it's always been that way. Why would you change? Oh, nobody cares. Nothing's gonna change. So it's it's reflected in our language that that living in a somewhat disempowered state, if you will. And I catch myself now. I mean, I catch myself more and more now because this is that's my job, and I've been focusing it for quite a few years now on yet self development, on observing how I relate to the world. And even though I find myself knowing better, I still get caught out. I still get into that. I don't particularly like that term, what but people use it victim mentality. It's not a nice term, but I haven't thought of anything better yet other than just in that disempowered mode. And but when I catch myself, because I've been really self developing for years years now, I I am able to catch myself using the language that keeps me stuck in that disempowered mode. So I'm able to catch it sooner, and I'm able to rationalize in my head to think, right. Hang on a second. Get a grip of yourself. So I think that's kind of the the core of that self leadership, just striving to because there's always gonna be things that's out of our control. And, and we can only act in whatever circumstances we are at the time, but we can act either from the disempowered mode where we just just go with what things are and and just live an unhappy and miserable life, or we can be in the same place where we have no control of certain things, but we can decide to do whatever we can to change our own reality around us in the hope that it will ripple. So You talked about victim mentality. Joanne Lockwood: I I can relate to the the concept here. Is this internalization you feel sometimes or you you you feel other people's language being used against you sometimes, and that can cause you to sometimes fight back, to be angry, to be frustrated. It takes a real strength of character to be able to step back, reflect, and then refocus what you're what what you're who you are, what you're trying to say without feeling that pressure of others to who judge you. And And I think that's what you're trying to say there. It's this the victim mentality is where you're you're living in a world of oppression or marginalization. And how do you step into that and with the strength? Because it it can be exhausting, can't it, to try and keep overcoming that adversity. Lina Jankauskeite: It can be very exhausting. Or if you keep overcoming, it can be exhausting. But if you know where you're going at, you kind of you know, you you can can be fueled by by your end goal. However, it is for example, to address what you what you were saying, in one of my talks, I speak one of my talks is exactly that, you know, disempowered disempowering language and how to take our control back. And in that talk, I give examples. So for example and this is now a daily language, which, you know, we we use it flippantly a lot of times. We don't really think, and it's easily done. We all fall for it. But the brain work. That's how the brain works, like brain plasticity, the way the pathways form from young ages, the language constructs the way we relate to the world. So for example, if someone pulled in in front of me in in traffic as I'm driving, I'm I'm a lot better now. I was a lot worse than before before. But I could really I could really get into this rage, I suppose, because a lot of times, the expression of the expression of the sense of lack of power in a situation, a lot of times is expressed as anger. And so I would get into that rage. I mean, I wouldn't act on it. I wouldn't start, you know, beeping my my horn or throwing coffee cups at a car. I wouldn't act on it, but it would simmer inside me. And and and I I had to find the ways. Ultimately, at some point, going through life, probably studying and just generally maturing, it dawned on me that, right, the only person that is suffering this situation now is you. That person they pulled in and moved on. And the way it is, for example, reflected in the language. So we could say, oh, he pissed me off, or she does my head in, or they always do that to me. And this is a very flippant use of language, which we do because it's a very it's an everyday language, and we all do that. And I say it myself, but if we stop for a second to reframe the way we say it. So if you think, oh, she pissed me off, for example. Well well, that's it. So you are that that passive agent in the situation because she acted upon you. And if you reframe, for example just take that one second to reframe that exactly the same situation and just saying, I feel pissed off because of what you said or what she did. The The situation is still the same, and the trouble is a lot of in this situation, when I try and suggest that people could reframe it like that, some people can feel very defensive and say, so are you saying that it's it's my fault that I feel that way? And that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's anybody's fault that someone feels the way that they do. I'm saying that is if you think that I feel how I feel because of what's been done to me, the situation is the same. There's an objective truth that something was done that, you know, you were wronged in in the same situation here for you as the same as someone pulled in in front of you, to use a simple example. So, yes, you were potentially wronged, and the feelings are justified, but do they serve you? And if they don't serve you, you can either stay in that self righteous place, which is which is justified, absolutely justified, but where is that going to take you? All you're doing, you're killing your own nerve cells by feeling like you do. You're not able to drop your best self in in your following interactions for the rest of the day, possibly, let's say. Whereas if only you just say I feel pissed off because of what she did. So the situation is the same. You're justified. You feel like you do, but it doesn't serve you. So when you say that I feel pissed off, the way the brain works, it just opens more possibilities of right right. I don't want to feel that way. What can I do about it? Whereas if you say at, oh, she pissed me off, well, there's nothing you can do about the fact that she pissed you off. There's nothing you can do. So you stay in that passive role, whereas you're the passive participant in a situation where something or someone acted upon you. Whereas if you just own the feelings, recognize that this is how I feel. I'm justified to feel that way, but I don't want to feel that way. And if you just reframe the language, it is really it sounds so simplistic. But if people use it consciously over, say, I don't know, a period of 30 days when just trying to catch yourself, you will notice that it's it will become easier and easier to catch yourself because you will literally be rewiring your brain. I mean, there's a lot of that same buzzword, rewiring your brain. But it is absolutely true. The way that neuroplasticity works, the way you break the cycles and the way you build the new connections, you will literally rewire your brain where it will become much easier to catch yourself using that disempowered and disempowering language, whether it's out loud or whether it's your internal dialogue depending on the situation. And then you see a lot more opportunities when you say, right. This is what I'm doing. What can I do to change that? Yeah. I think I well, right at the beginning, Joanne Lockwood: I I mentioned your superpower and your undefeatable belief that, we, as a human species, are, at our core, good, giving, willing, and caring is what I said in what you wrote. Most people who as as as you you use the phrase, piss you off, generally, they don't set out with that intent. And I appreciate there's a huge difference between intent and impact. We have to be unpack that as well. But inherently, people don't do something. Like, some someone when someone cuts you up in the road or or pulls in front of you, they're not doing it to disadvantage you. They're doing it to think, oh, I'm in the wrong place. I need to get in. I need to pull in. And it's almost like if you beat your horn, they go, oops. Sorry. Whereas if you if you just take it as kind of they're trying to live their best life, you're trying to live your best life. There's a bit of a conflict of how you would treat that. And, Jo, I think what you're saying here is we want to police people back into a box. This is my rule set. You've broken my rule set. I want to tell you what you've done to my rule set, and I need to let, you know, crusade against this. Whereas if you just go, yeah. But they they they didn't do it deliberately to to piss me off. They did it because they thought they were yeah. And you otherwise, you start inventing things in your head about how they're feeling or what's going on in their life or whatever. And and, again, we we don't know what that is what that person's going through. They might have gone I'm gonna deliberately park in front of you or cut you up. But they they probably didn't even think that. They just sort of a gap and and took an advantage. And some people like that, some people aren't. As you say, it's but I like the analogy of road rage because what we we wanna try stop people doing it again. Jo. It's not right. And it's that's the ability to step back, have that anger. I always think of it screwing up a bit of paper to pop it in the bin. I've I've I've been angry. I've I've now thrown it in the bin. Pop. It's gone. Move on. That Lina Jankauskeite: is absolute I I could you probably saw me nodding my head. My neck's hurting now as my I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And that's where, yes, that's where another thing that I really like to talk about, which is about perception, comes in. Because exactly as you said, 99 times out of 100, people go about their own business. And they absolutely, as you said, they don't intentionally wrong anyone. And the way the way I deal with it, I have my own strategy. So you have your, you know, piece of paper that you just throw in the bin. The way I deal with it again, for example, if it's going back to that traffic example where someone cuts you off or someone's going 40 in a 60 mile zone, And, obviously, you're in the rush. You need to be somewhere, and then it it at first, you start thinking, oh, for god's sake, why are you even on the road if you don't have to be anywhere? But the way I, the way that I then reframe the situation and that works for me, so everyone needs to find their own. Mine is, right, I bet you they are carrying an injured animal to the vets. And, obviously, they can't go fast because they conjure the the the poor pet around or or whatever animal that is not necessarily a pet. And the moment I reframe that situation, I couldn't care less that it's possibly not true. But it works for me, and I just use that. So this is this is what they're doing, and this is why they're going slow. This is why they're going slow around the corners even slower because, you know, they have an injured pet in the car. So we can all find ways that works for us, but that's exactly I couldn't agree more with what you said. It is I like the way you put it, actually. Yeah. But there's someone infringed on our set of rules about, you know, transpersonal interactions or and and, yeah, that's that's so perception is one very big thing, but I think also we can use in the I mean, obviously, that's just one of tools, one of the tools, not not the only tool. Far from it. But with using the language, we can help ourselves reframe our habitual perceptions in these, you know, repeated social situations where, yeah, someone wasn't in front of you in the traffic or pushes in in the queue at the supermarket or just anything. Or even if, for example, your technology not working. And I remember I was visiting my mom a few months back, and she she fired up Zoom because she had to she wanted to remind herself how to put people in the breakout rooms, and she something didn't work or something. And she was, oh, all of this is nonsense, and she sort of just stood up and went off in the straw. And now I'm quite petty with the use of language, and and I just went, no. Hang on a second. This this isn't nonsense. It's just we don't know how to use it, me and you. And when you reframe it and she came back a few minutes later and feeling quite concerned and worried probably because it was, like, 9 o'clock in the evening. And then at 8 o'clock in the morning, she had to carry out the lesson, or I think it was some demonstration that she had to carry out where, you know, potentially get, this project. And, so it's important that she she knows. And, obviously, she walked away really discouraged and really, self image is is suffering. And and, this, you know, catastrophizing happening in your head when when you word it like that. But like I said, me being petty, I insisted that we reword the situation. And she came back just 2, 3 minutes later saying Jo, okay, so what do we do? And just because we I'm not saying just because we reframed it, but I'm saying potentially that was the reason or potentially that helped because we reframed it, that she came back. Haven't found that enough power within her to think right. So there is something that I can do. So now I need to look what it is that I can do to change the situation as opposed to leave it, oh, you know what? This is not working. This is all just nonsense and just walk away feeling like the, you know, the the the weight of the world upon you. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I I did Joanne entrepreneurial startup course with, NatWest, I don't know, 10 years ago. And one of the things I learned from that is it's about taking personal responsibility. If I'm late, I had the choice to leave earlier. I had the choice to think about the things that could have gone wrong. I could have planned ahead for the traffic jam. I could have planned ahead for a puncture in my car. I could have planned ahead for running out of fuel. I could have planned ahead for that petrol station not having any fuel, and I had to go to the next one. I could have planned for all those things by leaving earlier, making sure I had a full tank of petrol, making sure that I wasn't in a rush, making sure I knew where I was going. I could I could do all of that myself. Whereas what happens is something goes wrong, and I've got I haven't got enough time. I haven't got enough resources. I haven't got enough of whatever expertise, learning, whatever it may be. So now I'm under pressure to deliver something that I can't because something's got in the way. So if I if I think back with far enough, how do I make sure that I never put myself in a situation where something else is is gonna cause me embarrassment or failure or whatever it is? I don't get it right all the time. But when it happens, I I I reframe it instantly. I said, yep. I could've left earlier. Yep. I could've foreseen that. Yep. I could've done that. So I don't start blaming other people. I I I teach it as an exercise in my own head to say, yeah, it's a lesson. I've learned it. Yeah. I I and I chose to risk Joanne, and the risk overtook me that time. Yeah. So it's like if I'm going to do some delivery of a of a talk or a a keynote or some training, I can leave the night before. I can get there earlier, or I Joanne I could I could not say yes to doing 2 things that were too tight. Yeah. I I chose to accept 2 things, and the gap between them was minimal and my risk was high. I chose that. Jo, therefore, I shouldn't be stressing somebody else out because of my decision. So I think that that's what you're kinda saying here. It's making sure that you're taken to personal responsibility because you have the power, you have the control to say yes, to say no, to think about something. That is absolutely what I'm saying. Yes. Lina Jankauskeite: And it's it's a practice. So I imagine even yourself so for example, do you I don't know if you because like I said, I can't remember myself 20 years ago. Not very well anyway. And but do you remember when it happened when you went? Because as as children and then teenagers, we we grow up with a lot of that. You know, the world doesn't understand us. The world is the world is against us and and things like that. And then, obviously, as we mature in, we probably step out of that to a certain degree, all of us, out of that victimhood mentality, for want of a better term. But then, obviously, again, there's a spectrum. There's a never ending progress of how far out of it you can step out and continue going. So when you were describing how you approach the situations where, yeah, you were late, for example, to me, that sounds like a practice that got you to the place where you are now able, without any bad bad feelings, to just recognize, you know, I could've I could've done things differently, and I wouldn't be in that situation now. Just recognizing that. Because it's a practice that takes you there. Because we don't start off with that. And we're not exactly taught that either because, as children, everything's decided for us. As teenagers, everything's decided. And, you know, all these schools, for example, the the they've really just encourage encourage, not just encourage. They encourage and enforce conformity to the rules that I imposed on you, which kind of takes away to a degree and everything. I mean and these are just little examples, but a lot of we are taught that, right, there's always an outside factor that has a say in a certain situation. So if we have a headache, more often than not, we will go to the painkillers then stop to think, right, what could be the reasons why I have a headache? And which is fair enough. Sometimes it's overpowering the headache. You need the panculus to even be able to think straight. But, yeah, to reflect back, to think Jo how you know, try and try and notice when did it happen, what could have triggered it, or, you know, have there been things accumulating over time? Is it body in my 10 tension in my body that's you know, how long has that been building up? Why was it building up? What so we are taught that the source all these every you know, everything's outside of us. That's what we were taught in a form of, you know, rules and regulations that we have to conform to I mean, don't get me wrong. Obviously, there needs to be rules and regulations to live in a society. But, we were never taught that within that container societal norms, we also have power. So we were never taught that, and that's why I'm saying it's a practice. So when you described the way you the way you now perceive situations, that sounds to me like you've been practicing for quite a while to get to the point where you're now where your default now is the recognition that, right, well, I am where I am. I could have done things differently. I think I think it was the to be honest, it Joanne Lockwood: was probably on that, entrepreneur course I was on that that it really that that was kinda you know, you you talk about your the work you do about coaching leaders and people to take this personal responsibility and to empower themselves. It was it was that training that I didn't think I had that epiphany before that moment. You know? That's 7 or 8 years ago, and that that was I I went through most of my life not understanding that. And I think from that, when we talk about one of the, you know, one of the keys of effective leadership is humility. And you're allowed to be wrong. You're allowed to you're allowed to say sorry. You're you know, I hear so many people say, don't apologize. You know, be like the queen, be like the king. You know, the royal family never apologized, never explains himself. I think, well, yeah, that that's that's not the way I wanna live my life. I wanna say if I if I've made a mistake, I'm sorry. I could've done that better. Yeah. You're right. I didn't I didn't approach that in the right way. I reflect on that, and I've taken on board all your comments. Yeah. If I feel I am right, I will stand up for what I think. But I'm also very reflective where yep. Yep. Oops. I did carve you up there on the on the road. I did I did party. Yeah. You're right. I should have been more thoughtful. Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. You're right. I'm not I'm not gonna stand here and defend it. Some people want to defend their position regardless whether they're right. They think you know, some people defend their position even they know they're not in the right or they just believe so strongly that they're right or the other person is so wrong that they want to defend it. And I think humility, saying sorry, admitting it is because we I think we we have this fear of being judged, fear fear of being wrong, and someone's thinking badly of us. And I think you can apologize in a way that doesn't make people feel badly about you. They feel more trusting of you because they they recognize that you you are somebody that will tell the truth and Jo matter how painful it is. And I think we're taught as kids, aren't we? I think we're taught as kids not to say sorry or not to admit things or hide things or sneak around behind our parents' back or we do say naughty and we won't tell anybody. Because there's always punishment for for telling the truth. I think you can reframe it. Yeah. If you talk about reframing things, but telling the truth is actually a strength, and being sorry is actually a strength. Having humility is actually being a strength. Not having all the answers could also be a strength. I think that's what we need to think about in our leadership and, you know, self leadership or leadership of others. It's I don't have to be perfect. I have to be the best human I can be and build relationships and collaborate, not I don't have to have all the answers. I've really Lina Jankauskeite: I couldn't agree more with, honestly, I couldn't agree more, but 2 things stand out for me. 1 is that just thinking which way around or okay. Jo that's defending your position, and I think that is where that self leadership is really self sometimes people ask, what would you mean self leadership? What is it? So for me, that contains several things. It contains, first of all, self awareness. Another thing it contains would be resilience because you build the strategies to to deal with situations. So, hence, it makes you more resilient going forward. But yeah. So that defensiveness is exactly that, and I think and I think that is the going back to wanting to change the world, I think that's where it begins because there's of course, there's systemic there's the the the systemic things are we we don't we need a lifetime to discuss that, so I'm not gonna go into into systemic things. But even though sometimes it seems that systems take up a life on their own, I, at least, personally, still strongly believe that the systems are run by people. The systems have come and gone, and they will continue exactly as they were up to this point coming and going. And because systems are run by people, systems are created, systems are reframed and redefined by people, it will always, for me, start with people, with individuals. And it is extremely hard because when you grow up in an environment, and I'm not even going to talk about some you know, I'm talking just your general everyday growing up. I'm not talking about some people that experience a lot of trauma because that's, again, another topic. But we grow up in that kind of environment, so where especially now a western world, there's very it's very competition orientated. Everything's a competition. The way you're marked at school, the you know, it's there's a lot more competition. And, I mean, this is systemic, a lot more competition orientated than it is collaboration orientated when it comes down to it. We hear that word a lot these days, collaboration. But when it comes down to it at the core, from when we were little, it was instilled into us that you must you have to be better than someone else. And on the one hand, that's needing to defend yourself. It's an evolutionary need because, you know, if you if you suddenly recognize that actually I was wrong or if you don't defend yourself and apologize, it comes it can shatter your self image depending on how long you were wrong in your life, in a particular, let's say, in the in a particular area of the way you conducted your life. And that comes, but the reason why it threatens your self image is because of that lack of self assurance. And self assurance, it has some bad rep because it's it's associated with arrogance, you know, on in the very on the very sort of superficial, plane. But if you don't if you're not secure within yourself, if your self image is dependent on others' perceptions, you you will find it very hard to admit fault even to yourself, never mind to somebody else, because that literally threatens yourself your identity. Because to say, you know what? I conducted myself wrong for the last 20 years. What are you left with then? So it's a very hard place to be at. You can, if you're not careful, paint yourself Joanne Lockwood: into a corner, can't you? You kind of you back yourself in, and you feel the only only way out is to fight. A bit like a cornered animal. Whereas if you can reflect I mean, I've I've reflected I've had some significant life changes over the last 10, 15 years, various things. And I can look back and say, yeah, I've I've I woke up 5, 10 years ago, and I have a different outlook on life. I look back at my past life. I look back at my past history and how I behaved, and I recognize that I could have done better. And I I look back and think I'm not necessarily saying I'm ashamed of who I was or who how I acted, but I've reflected on some of those times being not the person I would how I'd react today. And I've, yeah, I I've I've realized that maybe I put people in situations that weren't fair or I wasn't treating them with enough respect. I think I could look back and and not necessarily say feel shame about it. I I I would I'd be happy to apologize. I'd be happy to reflect and say, you're right. I should've done better. I could've done better. I now know better. I think we shouldn't be shouldn't be afraid to do that. I think if you're not careful, we we keep we keep enforcing our rules here. You know, I'm in the corner. I have to fight it out of it. I have to keep defending this hill. And sometimes it's just a case of saying, no. No. You're right. I I look back and, yeah, I've learned. And, you know, that brings me to the second point Lina Jankauskeite: of what you previously addressed, which is vulnerability. And in my experience, in not not only in experience I observed, but also in my own experience time and time and time and time again, vulnerability is what connects me to other people because that defending your corner, it's a very lonely place to be, just defending your corner no matter what. And it will because it is it is threatening your self image to you know, if if someone says you're wrong, that's when we become defensive because it's somebody else imposing their worldview, and you need to defend it, and you're gonna think about it later. And it's when we are able to recognize upon reflection that, yeah, we could have done better, that is such a such a strength on the one hand to to be able to say that. It's a it's a very strong thing to do as opposed to weak. I can't even put into words how important that is for me as well to be to be able to say, you know what? I would and I'm not going to lie. There are situations where I sometimes find it hard still, but it's a practice. It's something that you that I think that I I have to do that. I have to do the right thing by that other person by admitting that I was wrong, by putting them first. And I find that in that process, which is a very, very you it can take to build up, but that's the thing exactly as you said, you now know better. At the time when you did something or did not do something that maybe you could have done, you did not know better. You did the best you knew you can at the time. So it's not admitting that you'd what you did wasn't optimal or back, you know, in the past. It's not it's it's not that you're saying, oh, yeah. You know, I I I was it's admit you you knew you did the best you could. You did the best you knew you could, and that's okay. That's all the only thing we can expect of ourselves, to always do the best we know that we can until we know better. Is it Joanne Angelo that said it's a very famous goat, isn't it? But, really, that keeps you in the place in isolation until you find that courage to first look at yourself. Just first look at yourself. Because like you said, sometimes you have to stand in the corner because you feel you're right. But if you suddenly reflect back and you recognize that maybe you could have done things differently, it's very, very it's a very lonely place to be to keep that to yourself. And to say it out loud, it both reconnects to you to other people, and that vulnerability reconnects you to other people. And suddenly, you're not alone because you're sharing their humanity with those around you. And that's where the empowerment actually comes from, where that self leadership, that's how it manifests. But it's a practice. It's not it's not just skills you learn that you're told this is how you speak. This is what, you know, what you do. It's a practice. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You you talk about the loneliness. Yeah. The loneliness of being right is you either you either have to agree with me or you're in a position where you have to be wrong. It's a very lonely place to to make sure that everybody either agrees with you or is wrong. And I think if I often say this to people. I haven't been married for these 37 years by having to be right. I think marriage, relationships, leadership it's not about having to be right because it becomes a very lonely place. And what you soon find is that you don't have people's support. They you don't have people's respect. You don't have people looking up to you. They're they're constantly feeling yeah. They're feeling, I don't know, threatened when they're in your presence. So I think the need to be right is something we need to overcome. You know, vulnerability, humility. Yeah. I mean, as a as a leader, have strategy, have direction, have inspiration, paint the big picture. It doesn't mean to say you have to defend that to to the hilt. You could the best project management managers I know question and revisit the plan all the time. Is this still the right plan? Are we still on the right track? Have facts changed? You know, you say, this is how I was back then. The facts have changed. My age I've moved on. I've changed who I am. I can now revisit that and do it differently. The project has changed. We we have different objectives. The team has changed. The the the world has changed. Yeah. COVID popped up. We had to change. So I think having a fixed view of being right or having a fixed plan can be problematic. I think what you're saying here is that by reflecting, be more introspect, self aware, We don't have to hold on to all this stuff ourselves. I think that that's that's really keen to you know, part of this changing ourselves first. And you say it's corny and cliche. It's it's not really. It it it is fundamental as far as I can see. I Lina Jankauskeite: yeah. I I think it's fundamental. It's only conian cliched just because it's used so much and sometimes very flippantly. That's why it comes across as that. But what's behind those concepts or constructs is for me, it is absolutely, yeah, it's the core things. It's it's the it's the essentials. And I really like, as you were saying about leadership, I heard this a few months ago, I was listening to some or just watched a little clip on YouTube, and there was some a coach as well talking to someone, some interview, and he was talking about impostor syndrome. But I think I apply it more wider you know, a lot wider than than in what context he was saying that. So this coach was talking about the imposter syndrome that he constantly had to battle at the beginning of his career. And so the interviewer asks, so, you know, how did you deal with that? What what helped you? And so the interviewee described how he was working with a coach himself, which was, I think, of sort of a bit of Buddhist philosophy inclination. And, the coach apparently had asked him. He said, why do you feel that you have to be the master of things? You know, you you only need to be a guide. And he said that that was what really helped him to, with time, overcome that imposter syndrome. And for me, that really stuck with me, and I think it's very much applicable both in leadership positions because, obviously, they are in positions that create culture, so, you know, your your workplace culture or your institutional culture. So it's very important that they see themselves as guides, which are a step or 2 ahead of other people that they are leading, and that is where they are leading. They are a step or 2 ahead rather than master. Because when you when you fancy yourself a total master, it it's a very slippery slope where you can slip into that I know better, and I'm not listening to anybody else. Whereas you just if you and that goes back to what you said, humility. If you perceive yourself as a guide, right, you know so, you know, I have more knowledge, more experience than those people I'm leading in this particular field, and this is why I'm leading, but I don't know at all. So when you're not a guide mentality or mindset, you you will continue progressing in your self development, in your professional development because you, you know, that when you become a master or self ascribed master, you you that's it. That's kind of sealing a limit. That's it. I achieved whatever whatever I had to achieve, and there's nothing else to be achieved in this area. So I know everything, and I'm an absolute authority. And it just doesn't work that way because the world, as you say, is changing. So I really like that guide versus master metaphor. Like I said, it was in different context by apply and it's everywhere, not just in leadership positions in in your personal relationships, in your, yeah, in your social relationships? Joanne Lockwood: I don't know who who said it, but I'm I'm gonna say Richard Branson springs to mind. His His philosophy, or the person who has quoted this philosophy, was surround yourself by people who are better than you. Because one thing I've I've learned in my in my past life in in computing and IT is I I was always wanting to be the best. And, generally, I I have more expertise. But that becomes exhausting as well because not only you're trying to lead, you're trying to lead with your views, your opinions, and try and bring people with you. If you have a perception that nobody else is good enough or not as good as you, you'll never trust them. So I I've learned that I I would rather surround myself with people who are far more astute and and and skillful at what they do and let them do it well and and be the guide. You know, talk about being the guide, being the coach, being the mentor, create strategy through their expertise, and that bring also allows people to buy into the strategy, buy into the direction. But if, you know, again, if as a leader, if if you're the one that does all the talking and never the listening, how do you get people to buy in? You know, we talked about belonging right at the beginning. Belonging happens when you feel part of something, when you start to be listened to and contribute. If I just tell you what you're doing all the time, you're never gonna feel belonging. You're never gonna feel bad. That sense of engagement or buy into whatever I'm doing. So, yeah, it's I've I've learned that as a as a leader that it's it's it can't all be about me. It's not about me. It's not about the leader. The leader yeah. Whether you use the servant model where the leader's at the bottom holding everybody up or the visionary transformational model where you're painting a picture and get people to follow. I work in a world where it's empowering people's important. Okay. If I was working on a production line, I was working in a very tight quality control environment. Maybe that I need to take a different grip of the the leadership enforcement maybe. But, yeah, I I mean, I'm there to serve. I'm there to create strategy and direction, not not micromanage or or tell people what to think. Yes. And for me, it is also a challenge because I'm a Lina Jankauskeite: bit of a control freak. But, I'm a control freak in terms of I make my own cups of tea because no one can make me a a good cup of tea because that's just that's just me. That's my problem. That's nobody else's problem. But I think that's another thing to recognize that I shouldn't make something somebody else's problem. That is my problem. And that's just one of examples where where I am a bit of a control freak. And, I mean, I'm serious. It's literally I'm very specific about my cup of tea. I know exactly how many times to dip the tea bag because I, you know, I like it weak and yeah. So I'll just if someone asks you, want a cup of tea? I'll say, just put enough water in the kettle and I'll do it myself. And I always think, oh, man, you know, the carers are gonna hate me when I get old. So I hope that by that point, I somehow, you know, acquire different taste buds. But, really, it is that if you if you have that streak of things to be done a certain particular way, you also have to really wait up to to what degree you you can or you justify to expect other people to do them in the same way as you do them. Because, of course, there can be times when when when the situation requires it, and that's when you become a leader when the situation requires it. Because otherwise, for me, the way I see leadership is being supportive, being an approachable support to people around you so they can really, really stop shrinking inside of themselves and to really open up and not just share the wildest of ideas, the wildest of ideas, the most audacious, the most ridiculous ideas. That's what the that's what real leadership does. It's quiet sitting there and observing unless the situation requires that you absolutely step in and people are now looking up to you to lead them out of the stormy waters into the calmer waters when they, again, can develop and and and just be what they are. Jo that, yeah, without having a certain, you know, me talking from someone, like I said, from a control freak point of view, I recognize that, and I recognize that my need for control for certain things should not become other people's problem. I Joanne Lockwood: I've also, picking up on that, I've also learned when it matters to somebody else more than it matters to me. So I can coexist with somebody who has strong opinions and is a control freak and whatever because it clearly I can respect the fact that that really matters. It's like, if I'm playing and occasionally, I play darts. I play pool very, very occasionally. I don't have to win. I like a bit of a game. I like to chat. I like to play. If the other person really, really wants to win, is really, really competitive, I'm not gonna let them win, but I'm not gonna take it as seriously as I will. And I I can coexist in that environment where I don't have to be competitive. And I recognize that someone else is, and I'm I don't feel threatened by someone else's competitive nature. And the other thing I was gonna we we were speaking early. I was thinking, I know when to walk away. I know when I know when something doesn't matter that much to me. I'm either happy to acquiesce, capitulate, give in, or say, you've got the passion. Go for it. I'll follow you. I'm I'm more than happy you taking the lead. It's also known when to walk away from situations where it's toxic. You can never you can never bring any change. It may probably be me, and I'm this doesn't work for me. It's not you. It's actually no. Yeah. I'm not here to change you. And it comes to a point where you have to accept that somebody else isn't gonna change for you, at which point you you decide you have the you have the choice either to keep playing or step back. Often, I know where my limitations are, and this environment is not for me. And I'm sorry. I'm I'm out. It doesn't work. And it's recognizing that as well. You don't have to you don't have to win in every game or even compete in every game you play. That's very relate Lina Jankauskeite: relatable of things you said, and I think it's it's probably relatable to everyone as well. And it is, yeah, I had to walk away from toxic relationships as well because it had to run its its course. I had to I think I achieved closure before I could step away from that relationship. And some probably would have said I should have done it earlier, but I didn't because I haven't got to the point where where I achieved closure. And I didn't wanna be left with, oh, what ifs if you do it too early. But at the same time, like you said, you have to you have to be open to stepping away because it just consumes your energy and and really brings out the worst in you as well if you stay too long in those situations. And I don't I don't regret those situations where I found myself from which I needed to really urgently walk away eventually. And I don't regret them because they really also showed me my shadows with which I can work then. Because before then, I wouldn't have known them. You know, they weren't exposed. They weren't illuminated because I've I've never found myself in the situations where they would rise to the surface. But, and I I have been provoked following that on numerous times, provoked into interacting in that same kind of defensive way. You know, someone will tell you that, alright. So we've got nothing else to say. That's why you're walking away. Or, oh, yeah. So you just, you know, just giving up or or just things like that. You know, the provocative kind of language. But it's exactly what you say. You have to you and you have to be securing yourself sufficiently to not fall for that kind of provocation. And that for me is, again, practice something that you have to constantly practice. It starts with awareness, continues with conscious, intentional, effortful practice until it then becomes easier to actually you know, it just eventually washes off like a water off a dog's back. Is that the saying, I think? But it is what we all I think it is what we all striving for, but we don't always recognize to that sense of, yeah, self leadership, self efficacy, self sufficiency, and sufficient self sufficiently safe self image, but there's a lot of things that are packed into this. I mean, obviously, there are decades decades decades of research into all these different tiny little threads of what self leadership entails. And still not everyone agrees on the on the subject, but you have to start somewhere. Lina, thank you. What an amazing Joanne Lockwood: conversation. How do people get a hold of you if they wanna find out more? Lina Jankauskeite: Right. I'm on LinkedIn, mostly. Mainly, that's where I am active on LinkedIn. You can find my contact details there as well if you're more interested, and you can if you browse, you'll you'll see what I believe in, what I fight for. It's in fragments, but, it should give you a taste. And if you don't want to go on LinkedIn and look for immediate details, the easiest way to contact me is the email address, which is queries at redefineandrewire.co.uk. Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. I'll put those in the show notes. Lina, thank you so much. It was an absolute wonderful conversation. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.