--- title: "Inner Peace, Outer Progress" episode: 125 date: 2024-09-05 guest: "Manoj Krishna" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/125-inner-peace-outer-progress audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-125/audio.mp3 --- # Inner Peace, Outer Progress Joanne Lockwood is joined by Dr Manoj Krishna, a former spine surgeon who left medicine to focus on reducing human suffering through the Human Wisdom Project and his HappierMe app. Together they explore how greater self-understanding can shift how we think, feel, and behave, with ripple effects for relationships, conflict, and society. Manoj argues that many of our biggest challenges—stress, anxiety, loneliness, addiction, and persistent conflict—are fuelled by unseen patterns of conditioning and fear, and that learning to question our thinking can open the door to calmer, more intelligent choices. The conversation also critiques how education can suppress curiosity, and makes the case for teaching self-awareness and emotional understanding as core life skills. Using stories from work with children, they discuss identity, difference, and the importance of mixing with people unlike ourselves to build connection and reduce division. The episode closes with practical encouragement to start with curiosity and simple questions, and pointers to Manoj’s resources for those who want to go further. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introductions and Welcome - 02:00 — Feeling called to take action, seizing power. - 06:10 — Unlock inner intelligence, live in peace. - 09:30 — Change brings effortless happiness and tackles problems. - 12:27 — Children grasp simplicity while adults complicate coexistence. - 15:22 — Misunderstanding motivations leads to cognitive dissonance. - 16:55 — 10-year-old prefers sitting with white children. - 21:46 — Striving for peace and happiness through sufficiency. - 24:24 — Seek inner peace to stop chasing external validation. - 27:07 — Children's intelligence impacts solving climate change. - 32:50 — Realising inner work leads to freedom and peace. - 36:05 — Seeking connection and understanding for happier relationships. - 37:07 — Contemplating human behaviour based on aircraft boarding. - 42:08 — Desire to understand mind, find happiness, success. - 45:43 — Resistance to change, but solutions exist. - 48:14 — Stay curious, avoid crashes, seek understanding proactively. - 50:53 — Learning language and self-awareness for happiness. - 52:38 — Self-understanding education crucial for peaceful, fulfilling lives. - 55:46 — Joanne Lockwood signing off, aiming for inclusivity. ## Key takeaways - The impact of traditional education in diminishing adults' curiosity and innate love for learning. - Exploring the deep-seated human drive for accumulation and how confronting this can lead to inner peace. - The role of cognitive dissonance and personal identity in shaping social conflicts and interpersonal relationships. - Practical reflections on how understanding the human mind significantly improves interaction with diverse people and enhances problem-solving abilities. - The influence of a scarcity mindset on behaviors, particularly highlighted during crises such as the COVID-19 pandemic. - Strategies for breaking the cycle of material accumulation and fostering satisfaction through non-materialistic sources of pleasure. - Actionable insights into personal development, emphasizing the need for regular self-examination and understanding to drive societal change and reduce global suffering. ## FAQs ### What is the main focus of the episode "Inner Peace, Outer Progress"? The episode delves into how understanding oneself can lead to inner peace, which consequently fosters better interactions and progress in a diverse world. Manoj Krishna discusses the role of self-awareness in overcoming barriers in communication and fostering a more inclusive environment. ### How does Manoj Krishna explain the impact of education on adults' curiosity and learning? Manoj criticises the traditional educational systems for stifling curiosity and genuine love for learning by prioritising rote learning and exam-oriented teaching methods. He suggests that education often hinders our natural curiosity and lifelong learning which is essential for understanding ourselves and others. ### What does Joanne Lockwood say about the pursuit of material acquisition? Joanne reflects on her personal experiences, noting that constant acquisition rarely leads to true happiness. She advocates for finding sufficiency and satisfaction in what we already have as a pathway to genuine contentment. ### How does Manoj Krishna describe the nature of pleasure and its implications for personal peace? Manoj highlights that many pleasures are temporary and lead to a cycle of endless desire and emptiness. He suggests that true inner peace comes from addressing and transforming this inner emptiness into contentment and understanding rather than seeking external fulfilments. ### What practical advice does Manoj Krishna offer for moving towards enlightenment or changing one’s mindset? Manoj suggests that the first step is the genuine desire to change, likening it to the dedication needed when learning a new language. He emphasizes that understanding one’s own mind is crucial for this transformation, aiding in managing emotions like stress and anxiety, and improving overall life satisfaction. ### What are some non-materialistic ways to find pleasure according to the discussion? The episode suggests engaging in simple activities such as walking, sitting in the sun, or spending quality time with friends as ways to derive pleasure outside of materialistic pursuits. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. We're just diving. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 125 with the title Inner Peace, Outer Progress. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome doctor Manoj Krishna. Manoj started the human wisdom project and created the HappierME personal development app to help reduce suffering, help each person lead a happier and more successful life. And when I asked Manoj to describe his superpower, he said, he used to be a spine surgeon, but less surgery to start this project to create a better future for humanity. Wow. What an ambition. Hello, Manoj. Welcome to the show. Manoj Krishna: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure. Absolute pleasure. So Manoj, inner peace, outer progress, I'd love to hear more about some of your your life, your history, and your passion. So, you Manoj Krishna: know, I was driving home from work one day after surgery, 10 hour surgery, you know, all day, and a hospital in the Middle East got bombed, but it was a children's hospital. It was about 10 years ago, and the kids were screaming on the radio, and I felt we humans I was really moved by that and I felt we humans need to do better. We can do better, and we have the wisdom in the world to do better. It's just not spread enough. Do you know what I mean? It's just not it's not part of education. It's not part of our lives. And the understanding that could end conflict and war is so simple that children as young as 10 get it straight away. But why don't adults have carry this with them? And so I transitioned out of medicine. I felt called, you know, to do something about it. You know, you keep thinking some politician or some clever person is going to step up and do all this, and then you realize they're they aren't, and it's up to you. And you think, who am I? And then you realize you have the ultimate power because you're an ordinary human being. And the biggest change in the world, Margaret Mead said, that never doubt paraphrasing, of course, that a small group of committed individuals can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has. And so I just started and I've always been one to start walking and with not knowing what's going to happen next. So I left medicine, I started working in schools talking to teachers about stress and anxiety, And one day the head teacher said, hey, come and talk to these kids. I said, but I don't know how to talk to children. I know what to say to them. He said, no. No. Come along with, you know so I sat down with them and I said, will you look after me? It's my first time talking to kids. I'm a little bit nervous. They said, oh, yes. Yes. Of course. There are only 7 or 8, you know. But I discovered something amazing, which is we're missing a trick in education because we think education is about stuffing their heads with what we know, and we think we're doing them a favor by doing that. But the root word of education, adusory, is to draw out. You see? And what we really need to do in education is draw out their innate intelligence or wisdom, whatever word you want to call it. And every child, in fact, every adult has this innate intelligence or wisdom inside them, which can be completely life changing. So when you sit down with kids as an equal and say, I might have gray hair, but we're the same human being, you and I. Can we explore this subject together, whatever it might be? And they say, oh, yeah. And they're fearless as you know, and they're open and beautiful. And I thought, oh my god. If we can bottle up their wisdom and share it with the world, we really could not only help each child flourish, but change the future of humanity. They have an answer to war, to climate change, to all the conflicts in the world, to relationship conflict, to stress and anxiety. They have solutions which are so simple, but adults have forgotten that. So that's been my passion. So I started out on that journey and then came COVID, had spoken in 50 schools and colleges and universities by then. And you see it's the question that has the power to open the door to wisdom. And I then discovered that my goodness, if we could take this to the world that's why I created the human wisdom project, and then I built this app called happier me. And all it does is ask you questions and helps you unlock your own inner intelligence. So I said recently it's like walking into a room and putting the light on, except the light goes on in your own mind. So you can see clearly, you can make better decisions, you can live without conflict and with meaningful deep relationships. You can manage your own emotions, manage your own mental health, live in peace with yourself and others, and you can contribute to making the world a more peaceful and more beautiful place. See our time on earth is so limited, it goes by a flash. But if you live with this deeper understanding of yourself, which doesn't come from a book by the way or some religion, but it just comes from looking and learning about your own mind. And if you can do that and it's so simple, you can make the most of your limited time on it. Wow. That is Joanne Lockwood: so powerful. So powerful to sit here and listen to you speak there. I know my mind is is absorbing it. I I feel kind of drawn into the word you're using and that Margaret Mead paraphrase quote around the small group of committed individuals can change the world, it made me reflect on again, I'll paraphrase this. I don't know who the original quote was. If you we always worry about time travel, being able to go back in time. And if we if we make a little change, we could ruin the future, and we could change irrevocably what happened. But we can make that change ourselves in the present tense Yes. And have a a a a a lasting effect on the future that will occur, yet to occur. But we're we're scared to time travel back and make a little change, and we're scared to make the change today. That's a little change. And I I always reflect on a a video, I think it's Accenture produced one, called Inclusion Starts With the I, and I was the punchline for me is always be the one. I can't change the world. I can't change everything, but I can change me. I could change how I show up. I could change how I take responsibility. And if I can exemplify that to others, maybe they will take inspiration from that change as well. So I think that really that Margaret Mead was very insightful, and I think it's the root cause that we can always push it off to somebody else, but we have to take personal responsibility. And you know you talk to anyone about war, Manoj Krishna: climate change, and say, oh, somebody else is gonna fix have to fix that. It's beyond my pay grade. But what I hope to bring up and show in this conversation is that each of us can be this light. Find our own light, and then we can be beacons to shine in the world. And this process is simple. And each person can do it and it can transform our life and the world. You see, the other thing people get frightened of is change. If I do this, then how will my life change? And the beauty of this approach is all you're doing is looking and learning about your your your own mind and your own so you're just watching and learning. And the change happens effortlessly, You see, without conflict, without any kind of resistance, it just flows. Your relationships become happier, you become happier. And the scale of the problems, Jo, that we can address with this. I mean, just imagine if there was just one answer or one solution that could help prevent the 80% of people who are stressed, for example, avoid stress, or the 40 to 60% who are anxious, or the 80% of relationships that are in conflict and 50% breakdown, you know, or the 1 in 6 people who go and fall into addiction, substance abuse of some kind. Oh, listen to this one, 17% of young people are self harming, Look at the amount of distress behind that. And then I came across one yesterday because we've got an event coming up on preventing suicide on the 29th May, and it's a free event. But 1,700,000 Americans in 2021 tried to take their own. So the extent of suffering in the world is off the scale. And this deeper understanding of ourselves and how our minds work can help us take charge of our thinking, how we feel, how we behave, and it's an answer to our own self. That's the beauty of it. As a as a species, we've Joanne Lockwood: been around, not not obviously since the beginning of time, but, you know, a 100000 years, I guess, in, you know, in some shape or form. Why haven't we solved this problem here? You know, you whatever you're saying sounds so fundamentally straightforward. What what really is why why is change such a barrier to people? What's the psychological barrier to change that we're we're fighting back against? Well, everything Manoj Krishna: begins with the human mind, which is very capable, but not wired to be intelligent. There's a difference. And we are never taught from day 1 how to understand our own mind. We're always taught about the world around us but not ourselves. For example, we're all conditioned by our past experiences and it shapes our opinions, our beliefs, our habits, everything. What we wear, dress, eat, what we think about other people. So I was like talking at Newcastle University once and I asked a lecturer, I said, where do your opinions come from and why are you so attached to them? And he said, Manuj, I've been in education 30 years, nobody's ever asked me that question. So we are not asking the right questions. You see? So shall I share a little story about how we could end war? Okay. And then I'll bring you little kids I'd love to hear it. Joanne Lockwood: Alright. I'd love to hear it. Yeah. I'd love to hear it. It's so simple, Manoj Krishna: but and of course, if you ask kids they get it in 1. I'll tell you 2 stories, and they're both true. So if say you're a Russian and I'm Ukrainian, we're about to kill each other. We're on a war zone or could be Palestinian, Israeli, or Indian and Pakistan, doesn't matter where we are. Shia, Sunni, and we just stop and ask one question. Why? Why are you and I about to kill each other? I've not done anything to you, Jo, and you've done nothing to me, but yet you and I are about to kill each other. Why is that? And we know that if we kill each other, we go back home and we'll get a medal. But if we were on the same side of the line and we killed each other, we'd go to jail. It's just you see what I mean? How human beings are capable but not intelligent. Right? And the more people I kill on that side of the line, the bigger my medal. But on this side of the line, I'll be called a mass murderer, go to jail, people will remember me, or, you know, and so on. The sea, it's the same thing but you're taking a human life anyway. So we stop and ask why? Why are we killing each other? And then we realize, because you're Russian and I'm Ukrainian. Okay. Why are you Russian? Why am I Ukrainian? Oh, because we grew up in Russia and Ukraine. Okay. Is that enough to make us kill each other? Oh, no. No. You see, the same unconscious process of conditioning, which is our influence, have shaped your identity and have shaped without our own awareness. See? And yet we've become attached to that identity, you know. And then as soon as you become attached to an identity, somebody else can manipulate your thinking. Whether it's a religious identity, a political one, doesn't matter what it is. Nationalistic one, but you know, like you're democrat, republican, whatever, doesn't matter. The moment you and I see the deep down where the same human being, your heart works in the same way as mine, we'll say this is doesn't make any sense. Why would we do that? And we would just put our guns down. Well, whatever, if we have some differences we'll talk about. So when I put this question to kids, 10 year old, and I've got this recorded on video, I said, how are we gonna end war? And they said, we need to realize we have the same ice cream, just different flavors. Chocolate ice cream would never go to war with vanilla ice cream just because it was different. See? But we humans do because we don't see that we're the same human being deep down. And if we saw that really clearly, we wouldn't kill each other. You know, in the last century, we humans killed 200,000,000 of our own. No other species on the world does that. And we think we're intelligent. See? So real intelligence comes from understanding our own mind and how it's functioning without our own awareness. And this is just one example. Does does something come down Joanne Lockwood: to the cognitive dissonance or detachment of actions, consequences, impact? If I if I'm killing you, I don't kill you as a human being. I kill you as a a stereotype, as a as a a demon or a beast or because the motivation we have is to protect what I have and to defend it against somebody who wants to take what I have. You know, you talked about identity. So the motivation is the key is the is the understanding what motivates me to want to do that. What am I trying to protect that I feel a value that I think you want to take from me? That's the kind of fundamental, isn't it? Is that is that is that what you're trying to say? Yes. But it also comes down to understanding Manoj Krishna: identity. Because if you and I are brothers for example, we might fight over the spoils, but we probably wouldn't kill each other, you know, over that. But if you and I have a different identity which we're attached to, then we lose control of our own thinking. See? I mean, take Yugoslavia when it broke up, you know, the Serbs and Croats and Muslims and Christians live next door to each other for decades and then suddenly they turned and started killing each other. Same happened in the partition of India in 1947, Hindus and Muslims slaughtered each other. So identity can provide comfort, security. I'll give you an example. So again, 10 year old chap, I said you walk into a class and they're it's got black children and white children and you're a white boy. Where are you gonna sit? He said, I'm gonna sit with the white boys, white children. I said, why? He said, I feel safer. And I said, what else? I said he said, I think they'll understand me better, and I think they'll listen to me, you know, and so on. And I said, will you talk to the kids on the other side of the class who are a different skin color to you? He said, no. No. I won't talk to them because I'll think they're a bit strange. I said, what happens in 3 months? He said, oh, well, we'll start having arguments because we're not talking to each other, we won't understand. I said, what happens if you're a country? He said, we'll go to war. 10 year olds. And I said, what's the answer? He said, we have to mix with people who are different. And how often do we do that you see? You know we all want to be with people like us, But if we want peace in the world, we have to reach out and connect with others who are different. And it's just common sense. See? Joanne Lockwood: It's that sounds fundamentally lazy. It because affinity bias and people like us, people like me, it's easier, as you say, to have a conversation, to relate to each other. If we're trying to interact with people who have a different lived experience, a different perspective, a different identity, it takes more cognitive processing to have conversations and to understand the other person's viewpoint. Yes. So it it does it come down to laziness and and our innate sense of just keeping the status quo. That's that's the challenge here. I I don't I don't want to invest time in finding out about you because I also don't think you want to invest time finding about me. Therefore, I just talk to my my my like minded people. Is that is that what's going on? Well, we're not curious Manoj Krishna: anymore, you see, Jo. We are as children, but our education system does 2 things. It kills our love for learning, and it kills our curiosity. So when you're a child, you're really curious about everything. You're curious about other people you meet and you want to know. But as adults, that suddenly been gradually taken out of us. So when I meet someone who's different, I meet that person with fear, lack of interest. But actually, if you think about it, if I'm curious, there's so much I can learn from you, you know, your everything that you're different about is an opportunity for me to learn to enrich my life with that. You know, the books you read, the poetry, the food you eat, or whatever it is you're thinking, we've lost that curiosity. So our mind is wired in a particular way and this the way it's wired right now is creating all these problems. So every problem we humans face for which there's no easy answer begins in our thinking and all the problems we talked about earlier. So simply logical that if we had a better understanding of this mind of ours, we could avoid those problems and overcome them much more easily. And because there's so many of them, I mean for example, we could talk about addiction if you like. You know, addiction is a problem of thinking. It's not a problem linked to alcohol or drugs. Obesity is a problem of thinking. It's not linked to food because we know what we need to do, but we find difficult to self regulate our emotions and therefore our habits around food, drink, all that stuff. So this if you begin this journey of just looking and learning about your own, it awakens your own inner intelligence. And you don't need to be educated for that, by the way. In fact, the more educated you are, the the more clever arguments you have why, you know, you're okay as you are and you're not interested in learning. But I believe if we could bring this to every child and adult in the world, we could help them flourish and live in peace. After all, happiness is peace, you see. If you ask anybody, what do you want from your life? They say I wanna be happy. And happiness is really at the core of it is living with peace. Because all our pleasures as you know fade, you know, you have a new car, next week it's an old car. You go on holiday as soon as you come back it's finished and so on. But peace is the thing that each human being wants, and no matter how much wealth and power and fame you accumulate, peace is the one thing that's missing in most human hearts. And this understanding of ourselves can bring us that elusive peace that we chase all our lives. And if I live in peace with myself, then I can live in peace with you. And then we can have peace in the world. You used the word elusive there, in search Joanne Lockwood: of peace. It's it's the it's the challenge we have. It's we don't we're not able to set a bound or a definition of what happiness and peace means to us. So I found more joy by thinking about sufficiency, whereas in my life where I was looking for acquisition, for growth, for more, for bigger, for faster, and newer, that was like like a drug that I chased, and and you could never be satisfied because it's always one more. And it's like dreaming about winning the lottery. You think, well, if I won £10,000,000, is that really enough? I really need 20,000,000 to have every the life I want. So we we always tend to want this plus 1, plus a 100, plus a1000000. And he's trying to rein that back to to move that elusiveness of happiness to one of sufficiency and satisfaction with what we have now or realistically can achieve without wanting more. And I think yeah. Listen to what you're talking about there. It's the conflicts. It's often about acquisition of more. I want your territory. I want you to do what I want. And if if if I was sufficient in my mind thinking, I'm happy for you to be you and be who you are. I don't need you to be me or I to be you. Yeah. And I think is that that that that's the thing we're chasing is gluttony for one of a better way of describing it. But you see the way our mind is wired is automatically Manoj Krishna: driving us in that direction. So without understanding this hidden driver in our mind that's pushing us in that direction. You can try and stop it. You somebody might listen to me or you and say, no. No. Tomorrow, I'm going to try and be content with what I have. It doesn't work because the inner driver is so powerful, it's gonna keep on pushing you. So let's take a moment to explore that. What is it in us that drives us to accumulate more and more and more and never be satisfied. See? And maybe it's in us all is this deeper emptiness. Call it inner boredom, call it the void. And the more we get stimulated from the outside, the more we can cover it up, you know, call it loneliness. So but the nature of pleasure is such that I get a new car, it's an old car, new shirt, it's an old shirt, so I need a new one, you see. So I'm constantly chasing something on the outside to make me feel good on the inside. But if we pause and ask, why don't I feel good on the inside? What's going on? Because if I could answer that question and find the peace within me, right, then I don't need to chase all this stuff on the outside. Then I'll get what I need, you know, I don't whatever it is I need and the answer to that is first to wake up and realize this inner emptiness that we all have as human beings. We cover it up very cleverly, you know, through all our acquisitions and relationships and power and all of that. But the emptiness does never goes away. So the answer is to lean into it, is to stay with it and then it transforms to peace. But we are scared of doing so shall I tell you a story with children? Again, I love children and they're intelligent. So I'm talking to these kids and I said, okay. What do you what makes you happy? And they said, Christmas presents, holidays, ice cream. So I said, how long does a pleasure last? I said, not long. Soon as you open the Christmas present. And I said, how do you feel after the pleasure ends? And then a little bit of a pause, and then they say, I feel bored, empty, and restless. I said, what do you need to do next? Oh, I need something more. So another present, you know, more ice cream. But I said, how is it gonna be different this time or it's gotta be bigger and better? So I said, what impact is this having on your lives? And this is in the northeast, a very deprived area and the kids say well there's no food to eat sometimes because we've spent all the money on things, you know, presents and whatever, pub and all that. I said, okay. What else is can I do? He says it can cause pollution and 10 year olds have heard global warming, so they kind of say, okay. It can lead to global warming because all this pollution and consumption. So I said, what's the answer to global warming? And this little girl said, well, we have to find sources of pleasure that don't involve buying things. Right? I said, like, what? She said, like, going for a walk with your friends, playing with your friends, going for a walk in the woods. I said, what else can we do? So then there's a long silence, and this girl at the back said, if we could find an answer to our inner boredom, then we wouldn't need to consume so much. We wouldn't need to buy so much. Right? Because that's what's pushing us to buy all this stuff. So I said, what's the answer to the to your boredom? And she told me this. Well, I said to you right at the beginning, if I stay with it, it goes away. It's just so moving and profound, the intelligence of children. And when you talk to adults about climate change, they think it's going to be solved by electric cars or whatever, but it's not. It's going to be solved by us connecting with our own inner intelligence, waking up to realize there's enough in the world for everyone and this more and more that we're chasing as you as you said right at the beginning, isn't making us any happier. It's not serving us. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely not serving us. I mean, I know people who go on 8 holidays a year. It's because they're just not at peace with themselves, you see. Or they come back from one cruise and 2 days later they're off on another one, and so on. So the purpose of life becomes to accumulate more and more money so you can buy more and more pleasure. And in the process, we wear ourselves out and become miserable. And of course, all the mental health statistics are there to show what's happening, you know, in our lives. It's the boom and bust. It is Joanne Lockwood: as you say, we're we're working, working, working to accumulate. Then we we we offload our accumulation onto holiday, so we end up with this peak and trough of the brain chemicals. So we're rushing with stress, then we're de stressing, having a holiday, get back. We think, oh, we need to rush, rush, rush and restress to follow the next holiday. And so, yeah, we're doing this cycle. And it's a bit like taking sugar in your tea, I guess, where you don't necessarily want the the drink for the fluid. You want the drink for the sugar. So you're you're craving the sweetness. And you you stop taking sugar in tea and coffee, you drink it for the drink, not not for the sugar rush. And I and I and I I've stopped drinking alcohol now. I haven't drunk alcohol for 800 60 something days, and I've I find that has changed my whole outlook on what I do for for for pleasure. I don't I'm not trying to feed the alcohol monster anymore. I'm not trying to look for that for the alcohol to fuel my good time. I go and have a good time in in doing other things. You you said that let's go for a walk around the lake. Let's go and sit in the sun. Let's do let's do something that I don't need to spend money on. I bought a 7 I bought a 17 year old car because I got off of the the wagon of saying I had to have the newest model on 3 year loans and then turn it over and get another 3 year car, another 3 year car. I bought a 17 year old car that's now 22 years old, and I don't think I ever need to replace it until I do. It'll be fine. And then one day, I'll buy another 17 year old car that I'll keep for another 5 years, wanted it it doesn't work anymore. If you're not, that's a different thing. In your own Manoj Krishna: mind, Jo, and you're easily conditioned by the world around you, then before you know it, you would have bought the new car on a 3 year lease. By the way, we're not saying holidays buying things is wrong. We're just saying at the moment, it's happening without your own intelligence operate. And all we're saying is when you wake up and your intelligence is operating, then you will make the right choices for you that serve you. We're not trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do. We're just saying wake up and connect with your own inner light intelligence, whatever word you wanna use. But that's play play into the scarcity mindset, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: Where if you believe a resource is scared, you'll try and hold it, because you wanna make sure you've got that resource if it ever becomes, you know, unavailable. And other people you know, we saw in COVID toilet rolls, rice, bread, flour. People were holding stuff for this scarcity mindset. They had to have it, then nobody else could have it. And I guess that's the basis of war, isn't it? You know, we can we just had to speak about shooting and killing each other because people are worried that they're gonna take something of theirs. People those those very primeval instincts were coming out in COVID around, I want, I want, I have to accumulate. I don't need 10,000 toilet rolls, but I've got them just in case. Yes. And Manoj Krishna: you're driven to do that without even being able to stop yourself, you see. And the reason is that we don't understand the nature of fear. See, there are 2 drivers for human beings. Pleasure, we've talked about, but the other big one is fear because and fear is really interesting to understand. And when I talk to the kids, the explanation I offer them which they really love is like you're sitting in a cinema theater and you're watching a movie and on the screen are all these scary images and you believe them to be true and you get frightened and that fear then changes your thinking and your behavior. You don't see the projector is your own mind. See, it's projecting all these images onto the screen which you believe to be true. So in a scary movie, if you wake up and realize, this is just a scary it's a movie. It's fine. Your fear goes away. But we don't have that illusion continues in our in our own life. So once you understand that your mind exaggerates the fears of the future and it catastrophizes. In a way to try and protect you, but quite often it doesn't serve you. And then of course fear turns to anxiety and we did a survey recently, 60% of people said I've got moderate to severe anxiety, and you can imagine how crippling that is. So once you wake up and realize your anxiety is not caused by your lack of money or your worry about your health or your kids or whatever, It's caused by your own mind creating your own suffering. So the work you need to do is on the inside. And as soon as you wake up and realize that, then you begin your own journey of learning and you're free. You know, or it's a bit like you wake up from a scary dream, And in the dream you're really frightened, you're in a sweat, but as soon as you wake up and realize, oh, that's just a dream, your fear vanishes. Similarly, when you wake up and realize your fear and anxiety has been created by your thinking and it may not be real, but it's shaping your life in ways that doesn't serve you. See? Then you're free. So I gave this talk once and I said, okay, from tomorrow we're all going to stop eating because this half of the room is frightened of being attacked by that half of the room. So we're gonna use that money and buy guns instead. They all started laughing. But I said that's what countries are doing. That's what we human beings are doing, you know. We spend, I don't know, $1,600,000,000,000 on arms every year and a 1000000000 people go hungry every day and several in this country, and the richest countries in the world. So and it's all been And we have a major a major country in the world Joanne Lockwood: advocating more guns makes you safer. Yeah. If I if I if I have a gun, I'm more at risk. And what I need to do is buy a bigger gun so I'm less at risk. And I need to buy more guns, so I'm less at risk. And that that's an inherent societal belief Yes. In certain countries that we we can all think about. Yeah. Yeah. But it's all Manoj Krishna: based on fear and conditioning. Yeah. What I mean is that there's a hidden mind operating in the background without our own awareness. We think we're in charge of our life, but actually we're not. This hidden mind of ours is running our life for us. And when we wake up and can see clearly what it's doing, putting the light on, shining a light inside, we can then be in charge of our own life and make more intelligent choices for ourselves. So we can live in peace with ourselves, with others, be happier, have relationships with meaning depth without conflict. Do you know 60% of people in the world feel alone, 30% of them are in relationships. And this is because we haven't learned the art of relationship, Or we think love is what you are making going to help me make me feel. Do you know what I mean? So if you make me feel good, I'll say I love you, but I'll do things for you. But the moment you stop making me feel good, Jo, I stopped loving you. I said I don't love you anymore. And I genuinely convinced my brain convinces me I'm loving you but actually I don't see. I'm just it's I'm just loving me. Do you see what I mean? So It's a codependency Joanne Lockwood: thing, isn't it? Where we're trying to secure ourselves by by the word love, creates a commitment and an ownership maybe. And I need you to make me feel good, sort of thing. So, therefore, I I use those words back. I see what you're saying there. It's it's creating that codependency and commitment. If people are doing that, I'm looking to you to Manoj Krishna: get my needs met, you're looking to me. And if for by any chance we do do that, then of course we have a happy relationship. But if we're not aware of this process in the background, then you can easily see how conflict happened. And our loneliness comes not because we don't have people in our lives, but because we don't have depth of connection with them. So I spoke at this I was talking to these, kids in a university, I was talking about loneliness and this boy said, I don't know how to have a deeper relationship with anyone. I've never been taught. Nobody's ever ever told me how to do that. So this is what my passion is to bring this understanding of understanding our own mind into education. So we can have relationships with meaning, depth, you know, so our lives can be richer overall. Right? Because after all, our our relationships are the foundation of our own long term happiness. Right? You're talking away. Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm I'm thinking about, you know, going back to the happiness side, the relationship side, the human mind, the psyche. And I was I was just my wife was wondering thinking around behaviors. And I and I was thinking about flying aircraft, scheduled flights as an indicator of human behavior that that I'm simplifying this data to 2 types of people. One type of person wants to get on the aircraft as quick as possible to be first to to fight the rest of the front of the queue. And there's the other sort of person, which I put myself into the category of, I wanna be last on that plane. I I I don't wanna inconvenience everybody, but I wanna just literally walk up, walk on the plane, sit down, strap myself in, and then we go. I wanna make maximize that. And I also I'm one of the people that wants to be last off the plane. I wanna if you wanna fight for it, you wanna stand up and queue, you wanna get all upset around this and and be all uncomfortable. That's fine. I'll just sit down, fold my arms, go back to sleep, and wait for the plane to be empty and go, right, unbuckle, stand up, grab case, walk off. The keypad passport's gone. The the bags have already arrived at the on the carousel, and I walked straight out. But you see some people get really, really, I don't know, anxious, aggressive, demanding, tense, whatever it may be. And despite focusing on the plane doesn't get there any quicker, whether you're at the front or the back. It's it's a it's a I always probably book a seat as far to the back as possible because I don't care. I don't need to be past the melee of of people fighting with each other. And it's it's just again, it's that thinking about the mindset and what you're trying to achieve, but people don't. They're so busier and you take your practice conflict and killing each other. We're so busy, worried that someone's gonna take something that's ours. And we don't we have to defend ourselves all the time. So you see the Manoj Krishna: door to intelligence opens with a simple question. Why am I thinking this way? Why am I feeling this? Why am I behaving in this way? For example, jumping on, you know, all the plain story you said, Russian. Does it matter? So asking ourselves the question is what helps us pause and then our intelligence can kick in. But if we have never been taught, Jo, to question our own thinking and our own behavior and what we feel. Because you see right now, our mind is wired to convince us that what we think is true, what we feel is true, what we see is true, you know. And we never we justify everything. If I'm smoking, I'll justify it. If I'm about to kill somebody, I'll just it doesn't matter what I'm doing. Even Hitler, you know, justified the killing of all the people he did and so on. So everybody justifies their own actions. That's how our mind is wired. Intelligence comes when you can pause and ask why. What am I doing? See? And then that opens the door to a deeper experience of life. And, you know, it's a really enriching experience. So right now, our minds are wired to look on the outside for things to make us feel good on the inside. But if you live with this inner intelligence or wisdom or whatever you want to call it, you're nourished from the inside. And as you say, then you can relax, sit on the back of the plane and wait for everyone to take off because you know it's a smart thing to do. Or you might learn you're both chasing money all the time, where you've gotta actually pause and enjoy your life because we spend every day working for tomorrow. Right? Or so many people do, you know. So we're we're we're enlightened. We're we're we're living in the Joanne Lockwood: echo chamber of of kinda getting some of this stuff that you're talking about. I I'm I'm not I'm you've got no resistance for me here at all. I'm I'm with you on everything you're you're saying. But we recognize that the facts don't change people. You know, we we we can tell people to a blue in the face that doing this, cause and effect, do this, that will happen. And people will ignore that. They'll they'll they'll they'll risk take. They'll they'll drive too fast. They'll drink too much. They'll stand on the edge of the platform. Don't fall where they should be standing back. They'll rush to the front of the the baggage carousel. When standing back and waiting for your bag to appear is obviously the best solution, but now we have to be at the front. So what how can someone who's listening to this podcast maybe reflect on what we've been talking about? And what's that first step they can take to enlightenment, to change, or that nugget that's gonna nudge them into a slightly different orbit of thinking? What can they do? Yeah. I think the first thing is to want it. Manoj Krishna: See. Say, the other day I was doing a event and a lady gave this beautiful example. She said, it's like learning a new language. First, you have to want to learn the language. So what is it that's going to make you want to, you know, understand your own mind? You might want to be less stressed or less anxious or less lonely or have a happier relationship or deal with an addiction problem or you might want to be happier. You might want actually to be emotionally intelligent, which will help you be successful in the world. You know, if you can manage your emotions, you're emotionally intelligent. And they say our success comes from emotional intelligence more than whatever skills we may have picked up. So you have to decide what's important for you. And once you decide, then as you're saying, then there's a knowledge part. Okay. The, you know, the learning the language has some grammar and basics. And we've got we've developed an app we'll talk about which helps with all of that called Happier Me. And then you have to practice. Right? Then you have to actually, it's gotta be a living thing in your life. You practice the language and unless you practice it, it won't stay alive. So similarly, you've got to then notice what's happening in your thinking. Ask yourself, why am I thinking that way? What's going on? And then you go deeper and explore. And you see, it's like again, if you have that curiosity, then you think, oh, well, I didn't know that about myself. So it becomes a process of self discovery. And that self discovery brings joy, brings change, and enriches your life in a 100 ways. Yeah. Anyone can do this. Everyone can do this. There's no stereotype for this. It's Joanne Lockwood: it's as you say, it's the the fundamental is the the epiphany, the wake up, the the thing that's gonna nudge you, the the drive to change. But the the reality is most people will never ever find that drive. And the ones who do are halfway on the on the road to enlightenment anyway. So it's what yeah. There'd be people listening to this podcast going, what are they on about? What are they on about? Why do I need to do this? I'm perfectly fine. I'm perfectly happy. It's what's what's the trigger? How do we say we wanna try and find something within us that are gonna go, Now I get it. What's that what's that thing that's gonna trigger me? I've just been writing a blog, Jo, on Manoj Krishna: the 5 barriers to overcoming stress. The number 1 is, I may not even know I'm stressed. By the way, when I use the word stress, it could easily be anxiety or conflict. It doesn't matter what it is. So firstly, I may not be aware that this is what this is what's happening to me. Secondly, I may think, oh, this I'm bigger than that. I'm a man or whatever. I I'm I don't I never get stressed, you know. I'm I have a perfect relationship, so you're in denial basically. You're just not aware. Or it could be that you just don't think it's possible to be anything other than how you are. You don't think it's possible to not be stressed, or you don't think it's possible to not be anxious, or have a happier relationship. See? Because you've just grown up thinking that's the norm. Or then you might think, well, it's somebody else's bloody fault, you know. Why should I have to change? Somebody else needs to change, or my job needs to change, or I I I need to have more money to be less anxious or whatever. So the change has got to come from the arts, so therefore it's got nothing to do with me. And even if they listen to us and said, okay, I agree I need to change, they don't know how to, or they're frightened of looking at themselves. So there are a few barriers, but each of them can be overcome quite simply, I think, and we've created a toolkit to help people do that if they're really interested. Joanne Lockwood: Okay. Yeah. That's interesting. That's as I think what I'm kind of hearing is that there's an external factor that's gonna cause that trigger. Yeah. So you say a burnout, an illness, being made redundant, car crash, something that something that's gonna hit you in your life that that's gonna jolt you involuntarily out of your orbit for it long enough for you to see a different path. If it's a minor bump, you probably won't, but if it's a significant bump. And that's that's the challenge we face is we need something really, really fundamentally knocking on our door to make us wake up and go and reevaluate. I mean, I've been through this. I've been through something that knocked my life several lanes to the left. And I know people who have had a very similar wake up call for various reasons, which is provoked life changing thinking and activity. But most of us who would benefit from this will wait until that point in their life where they just keep heading they they arrive at 60 miles an hour towards a brick wall, and and it's only the brick wall that's gonna make them stop, not not their power on the brake pedal. Manoj Krishna: So interesting, Jo. Let me ask you a question. Knowing what you know now, do you think it would have been smarter for you to have avoided all those challenges in your life? Right? So someone listening to this conversation, I'll ask them, I do you think you're intelligent? Do you think you're smart? Everyone says yes. If you are, you're a thinking person. You've got a beautiful brain, the most capable in the universe. Use it to reflect on your own life. Why wait for disaster, trauma, self harm, you know, all of that stuff. You can change your life today. Just take the first simple step of looking and learning, asking why. What's going on? Just be curious. See? You don't want to be in a car crash in your life, metaphorically or literally. You want to avoid car crashes in your life. Right? So many people end up with burnout, depression, and if I said 70% of the people in the world are gonna burn out and you're in the 30%, if you're really smart, you won't wait till that happens. You'll say, right, I'm gonna make sure I don't burn out. I'm gonna find out what's going on. If I learn I'm getting married and I learn 50% of marriages end in divorce. I'm not gonna sleep walk into that. I'm gonna wake up and do something about it. So I'm not that statistic. And of course, the wisdom is there if you want. Or if I wake up and realize 60% of people are anxious in the world, and then someone comes along and says you don't have to be, something can be done about. So we have that capacity for intelligence. It's just we need to, a, wake up, b, realize it's possible to change, and, c, it's not that difficult. Children as young as 10 get it like that. See? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Even though I know what I know, I'm still not convinced that I will take preemptive enough action without something becoming a problem next time. So I I've I've I've gone through a period of change. I've gone through a period of reflection. I've got I've gone through a period where I completely relate to what you're saying is, but I can foresee myself being in another plateau. Mhmm. Well, again, I'm blissfully unaware until something else happens to cause me to reset again. So it's almost like a step to its waveform. I'm I'm flattering, staying steady, plateauing, staying steady, and going from this, like, sequence of of epiphanies. Yes. Hopefully, in Manoj Krishna: time, maybe I'm more. Problems will be repeated until the lessons are learned. You know? Yeah. So yeah. But it's, of course, it's I'm probably more open. Yes. I'm I'm more open to be aware sooner. So Joanne Lockwood: the resistance to change will it likely be less than it ever was. And every time that I'm realizing the change is necessary, I'm more willing to embrace it. But there's still a lag on that curve, isn't it? There's still gonna be a a slight delay while I reevaluate, reincorporate, and then adapt. And I guess what we're trying to do here is we're trying to minimize that curve of acknowledgment Yes. To take action. Think about why people learn another language. Manoj Krishna: It's not there's no pain point they're trying to solve. They're doing something for the love of it because they want to get something out of it. So similarly, learn about the most important person in your life. You learn about how to be at peace and happy, which is the number one thing you're chasing in your life. Learn not to waste your life so that you don't want to be, you know, on your deathbed and think, oh my god, I just wasted my life soft with suffering when I could have lived with joy, you know. I could have had really happier relationships. So why didn't I? What happened? So here is the jewel of understanding. It doesn't come from a book or religion, don't worry. Nobody's telling you what to do. But here is a jewel that can completely transform your life and make it richer, more beautiful. Why would you not look at that and just be curious? You don't have to believe anything anyone's saying, least of all me, but you could just be curious. Maybe there's something there. Let me let me have a look. There's no harm done looking. See what I mean that way? Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And I think going second right back to something you said right at the beginning, education or educate derives from was it the Greek or the Latin? It's Greek. Yeah. To draw out. Yeah. To draw out. And I think that's the key here is trying to draw out what we think and feel ourselves, expose that draw out of others of what they're thinking and feeling, and then be able to make better decisions that don't involve conflict or gluttony, I guess. Yes. All of Manoj Krishna: that. And and and my passion is that this subject of learning about yourself, call it what you like, self understanding, should become part of education. So as much a part of the curriculum as maths and science because it could save us from all that conflict and suffering, number 1. It could help everyone live in peace no matter what you're doing in society. You know, you're the barista in the coffee shop, you're cleaning the streets, you're the the prime minister, doesn't matter. You live a rich fulfilled life on the inside. Your inner life is rich, and we could create together a better future for our children and for humanity as a whole. And it's not that far off, you see. We have all this wisdom in our hands to make this a reality today. Manoj, thank you. This has been fascinating. I've really Joanne Lockwood: enjoyed diving into this with you. How can our listeners get hold of you? How can how can you, start more conversations? So people can find me on Manoj Krishna: LinkedIn, Manoj Krishna. You can visit our website. It's happier me, one word, dot app. You can download the happier me app from all the all the stores and begin a conversation. Reach out. It's manuj@happierme.app is my email. If this resonates and you'd like to be part of our mission to help reduce suffering, to help people lead happier and more successful and to create a better future for our children and for humanity, then get in touch. I think we have it Joanne Lockwood: Just on the edge. To do something really beautiful in the world Manoj Krishna: and leave a legacy for our children who look back at our generation and think, okay. They messed it up, but then, okay, they try to do something about it. Or at least equip the next generation with the wisdom to be able to address these challenges we face. Yeah. As I've just found the the app Joanne Lockwood: on Apple. And, yeah, I'll go and take a look at that. It's Please try Manoj Krishna: out. It's no obligation to buy anything. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead and have a look. Yeah. Well, Joanne Lockwood: thank you so much. It's been a fabulous conversation. I've really enjoyed it, and good luck with the app and good luck with, spreading Happier Me to everybody in the world. Jo, it's been my pleasure. Manoj Krishna: Thank you so much. As we bring this Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.