--- title: "Inclusive Healthcare For All" episode: 124 date: 2024-08-29 guest: "Ellen Edenbrow" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/124-inclusive-healthcare-for-all audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-124/audio.mp3 --- # Inclusive Healthcare For All Joanne Lockwood is joined by Ellen Edenbrow to examine what inclusive healthcare looks like in practice, and why inclusion and diversity work in health and social care is far more than performative activity. They discuss how small but deliberate changes in communication—asking open questions, avoiding assumptions, and using respectful language—can build trust and improve outcomes for patients. Ellen shares insights from launching Inclusive Health with their wife, a doctor, bringing specialist inclusion training into healthcare settings. The conversation explores barriers people face when accessing care, including fear and mistrust driven by identity-based exclusion, and how budget cuts and negative media narratives can undermine progress. Through personal stories, Joanne and Ellen highlight the lived realities for trans and non-binary people navigating healthcare and public spaces, including misgendering, assumptions in clinical settings, and the emotional toll of persistent scrutiny. They also touch on broader intersectional examples—such as accessibility and disability analogies, race and COVID-era disparities, and targeted health initiatives—showing how inclusive practice benefits everyone. The episode closes with a clear call to action: allyship and proactive engagement matter, and inclusive healthcare practices can be life-saving by helping people feel safe enough to seek help when they need it. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Married a doctor, good and bad perks. - 05:26 — NHS diversity budget only 0.04%, alarming. - 14:26 — Realisation of non-binary identity, freedom, self-acceptance. - 15:56 — Concerns about conditioning, privilege, and travel choices. - 21:19 — Navigating trans health care with mixed experiences. - 31:27 — Trans community seeks attention on global issues. - 33:44 — Navigating identity during Covid: overcoming fear, embracing authenticity. - 41:45 — Privileged safety, top surgery, NHS challenges discussed. - 44:44 — Respect people's decisions, but address problems. - 48:52 — Reflecting on gender, body image, and hospice. - 54:41 — Creating inclusive language for all to thrive. - 58:57 — Embracing vulnerability and time for health awareness. ## Key takeaways - The detrimental effects of sensationalist media on the mental health of transgender communities. - Challenges faced by non-binary business owners, including navigating healthcare developments like the CAS report and private hospital rooms for trans patients. - The importance of breaking down stereotypes and addressing societal fear of the unknown to better support trans individuals. - Inclusivity strategies that benefit everyone, using examples like gender-neutral product packaging and targeted health screenings. - Reducing healthcare barriers through respectful acknowledgment and tailored IND training for healthcare professionals. - The need for intersectional policies to ensure inclusivity considers varied experiences beyond the LGBTQ+ community. - Practical steps and ongoing efforts by the NHS and other organisations to advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusivity in healthcare settings. ## FAQs ### What is the main theme of this episode? This episode, titled "Inclusive Healthcare for All," focuses on the experiences and challenges faced by transgender and non-binary individuals in healthcare settings. The host, Joanne Lockwood, and guest, Ellen Edenbrow, discuss issues of sensationalism in the media, systemic problems in healthcare, and the need for inclusivity and diversity training. ### Who are the speakers in this episode? The episode features Joanne Lockwood, the host, and Ellen Edenbrow, the guest. Joanne is an advocate for inclusion and diversity through her company, SEE Change Happen. Ellen, along with their wife, provides tailored inclusion and diversity training for the health and social care sectors through their company, Inclusive Health. ### How does the media impact the mental health of transgender individuals? Joanne Lockwood highlights that sensationalism and negativity in mainstream media, particularly from right-leaning outlets, negatively affect the mental health of transgender communities. This creates an environment of fear and misinformation that exacerbates existing challenges. ### What are the barriers to healthcare access mentioned in the episode? Ellen discusses numerous barriers including identity-related issues that foster distrust and fear among patients. The episode also covers systemic issues like staff confusion regarding transgender identities and the need for respectful acknowledgment and gender-neutral options in healthcare. ### Why are inclusive policies in healthcare important according to Ellen? Ellen asserts that inclusive policies in healthcare can save lives and improve patient outcomes. For example, targeted health screenings for specific communities can identify and prevent severe health issues early. Inclusive practices benefit everyone, not just minority groups. ### How did Ellen Edenbrow's COVID lockdown experience affect their self-perception? During the COVID lockdown, Ellen had time to reflect on their identity and how they wished to be perceived. This period of reflection was significant for their clarity in understanding their non-binary identity and subsequently undergoing top surgery. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 124 with the title, Inclusive Healthcare for All. I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Ellen Edinburgh. Ellen and their wife offer bespoke IND training for health and social care sector people. When I asked Ellen to describe their superpower, they said that they are part of 0.5% of the population, and not many people will ever know how that feels. They like to think that it gives them a unique time on this planet. Hello, Ellen. Welcome to the show. Ellen Edenbrow: Hello. Thank you for having me on a very early Monday morning. Joanne Lockwood: And you just got back from Spain, Malaga, I think you said. Mallorca. Ellen Edenbrow: So, but it's blue skies in Leeds. Not the same scenery, gotta gotta admit, but, still nice nonetheless. Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's lovely to have you here. So, Ellen, Inclusive Healthcare for all, tell me about what you do with your wife. So, Ellen Edenbrow: in Inclusive Health, we launched it January 31st precisely this year. So we are very new. We're very fresh. And I guess what we do in a nutshell, I guess our our tagline is foster inclusivity, elevating healthcare. So I've done in in inclusion diversity world now for about 9 years, which really is quite the early start of the I and D conversation in the UK. It still hasn't been around for for long, and I kind of, maybe we'll talk about it, but I've kind of bizarrely found myself in this world as many of us do, who have been there from kind of the early years. But I've been in I and d in in many different sectors. All sectors worked as a consultant and supported many different organisations from charity charities to massive large global organisations. And when you marry a doctor, which is a good decision and a bad decision, unfortunately, mostly bad, but it comes with some perks. I very rarely need to go to my GP because I can get some great advice at home, but you, you hear a lot of things. And you meet a lot of other doctors and you hear a lot of more of the things. And the old organisation I used to work with used to work with NHS providers and trusts, but we never could necessarily give those healthcare professionals, specialist, I and D training in terms of getting some learning and practicing that in a healthcare setting with real understanding. And I thought, wait a second. I've got someone in my house that can help with that. And we just thought, why not give it a go? I think my dad was trying to get me to be self employed since I was about 18. And I thought, finally, I'll I'll I'll give it a stab. And it's one of those things where you think, I'll give it a go. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least I've tried it. And look, my wife's a doctor. My wife's a patient. I'm a patient, we're all patients. Right? It is the one thing we have in life, and I think COVID 19 was a great awakening call for many that have necessarily not had healthcare considerations or problems in the past where I thought it's all we have. All we have in this life is our time and our health. And there's so many people that feel like they can't access healthcare. And of course there's, there's many barriers people access in healthcare, but when it comes to inclusion, people's just identity is a massive barrier, with trust, with worry, with fear. And if we can help one patient feel included with a healthcare professional, they have a great conversation. And that means in the future, when they feel a lump or a bump or a worry, then they go back for a healthcare chat or a consideration. It could save their life, and our job is done, even if it's one patient. There's a lot Joanne Lockwood: in the press at the moment about IND, inclusion and diversity, equity, belonging. But we've seen, I think only this week, and where are we? Middle of May 2024. The UK is pushing back on diversity and inclusion consultants in the public sector. They're cutting budgets and looking through department department saying, why are we investing in IND? What's your take on the the value that IND initiatives bring to organisations? I get well, firstly, I think I just saw Ellen Edenbrow: even just this morning before jumping on to call that civil servants, I and D roles are getting scrapped or pulled back. The NHS budget towards inclusion diversity initiatives is 0.04%. Of the whole budget. I think what's quite worrying and alarming is this stuff is life saving, but people don't see it as that. They still see it side of desk. And I think that's depending on the facilitators that they've had, trainers that they've had, if they haven't got that message across in terms of just the benefit it gives and look, depending on who I ever speak to, I, I give them a different sales pitch for inclusion, diversity. For some people it's people's enough. The fact that they're making people's lives better is enough. For some people, you have to talk about how actually it makes them money. But when it comes to healthcare, I and D initiatives will save money and save lives. You know, in terms of specific, you know, smear programs for trans and non binary people go into specific sessions for that, whether it's trying to support people from people of color and people of communities in terms of donating blood or things like that. It's life saving stuff. And I think love it's fear. It's fear that privileged groups aren't heard about. And I often Joanne feel an energy. I've even had comments back that, well, I and d's only for certain amounts of people, certain groups of people that are quote unquote minority. I don't like that word. I prefer marginalized. And yes, there is sometimes a time and place to have specific outreach to small percentage groups of people, especially when it comes to healthcare, you know, specific testing or opportunities that says, look, it's just for people of this identity, because we know they have fears and worries coming into a bigger and wider setting. But the downside to that is when they don't have those spaces, they aren't gonna go for healthcare Joanne it's only gonna cost more for the future. There's a really interesting initiative at the moment that the NHS are doing, and it's kind of the first of the kind I've seen. There's something it's within our household as well. It affects us. There's something in the Jewish community called the BRCA gene. And it's, an increased, likelihood of getting cancer. My wife has it. Other people in her family have had it, and she sits around 85% opportunity of getting breast cancer. Unfortunately, as a result of a half sibling, Anna will have life saving surgery this year to reduce that possibility. That is an IND initiative, and there's a new program within the NHS, which basically says that they are gonna be doing swabs for people with Jewish heritage, Jewish grandparents to see if they have this gene Jo they can do preventative treatment before cancer comes and it's too late. That will save so many lives. It will save so many families and relationships and households from grief. It will save children having their parents in their lives for more years. Like, that's what we're talking about here. And I and d helps everybody. It helps parents. It helps carers. You know, it helps people from different socio mobility backgrounds. It is not just for certain groups of people, but I think the media are doing a cracking job of saying, Jo, it's I and d's only about me and you. This 0.5%, 0.1, you know, this 1% of the population. And yes, there's a time and place where me and you need specific time and spaces and health appointments, etcetera, but it is for everybody. And so much of inclusive health. Yes. There's specific things that my wife from a doctor side is gonna bring in from considerations, but she's a a trainee GP. She's working hospices at the moment. She's worked in at the moment. She's worked in pediatrics, respiratory, you name it, surgery. So much of it is just a communication. It's just asking the right questions. You know, she had an appointment as a GP. Someone came in with an with an issue with their with their testicles, and had never been asked about their sexuality and the relationships they had. But from what they were describing, it was vital to know who their sexual partner was and no one had ever asked. And it was a guy in his late sixties and they just assumed through fear of offending someone again, quote, unquote offending someone by asking that question. It was a simple question of, are you sexually active? Who do you sleep with? What parts do you use? That was a vital question to help that person. And that was no extra health care in terms of doctor or knowledge. It was just an open ended question with no fear and no worry, and that really changed the direction that my my wife then supported him. And it made things very clear of what those problems could be. That's all it was, was a question. That's it. It's all we're trying. That's part of the problem, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: We we're we're lumping I and d, inclusion, diversity, diversity, inclusion, equity, whichever the buzzwords you want to use, into kind of activist Right. Activities, hashtag type activities, celebration activities. It's the party that's going on, you know, organizing these things. It's it's very infrequently equated to direct action the way you described there, where what we're looking at is root cause analysis based on people's lived experience, people's inherent characteristics, looking at the inequity that they may be feeling in in a process, and they're making change to process to make sure they get equity. And that's the I and d good side. So when they're talking about in the in the news, in the in the media, whatever it is about cutting these budgets back, what they're trying to they're lumping altogether in this this wokeness of society, costing loads of money to to promote minority people. Yeah. And and and Ellen Edenbrow: again, it's it's whoever's leading that agenda is doing a cracking job because it as I I'm sure you're feeling it as anyone listening that is self employed, you know, I'm, I'm fairly new to it. And people are saying it's blooming different this year. The work is a bit different. You know, a lot of LGBTQ plus people, usually June saves them financially because of pride and people are worried and people aren't getting the the call outs that they thought they were gonna get. And it's very different from from this year to last year, and I don't know what your experiences are with that. So someone's doing a cracking job in terms of of of having that fear and worry. And, again, I think it's that division that we're asking more, and I think a lot of people, that's the message they're receiving at the moment is that we're asking for above and beyond. We're asking for this and this and that and that. We're not we're just asking for the basics, the absolute basics, a curious question, or if a question needs to be asked and it's, it could feel a bit awkward, just the framing about that. Still ask the question, be like, I'm sorry. I've got to ask this. And, you know, even that awareness of the sensitivity around it, you know, we're we're really not asking for much. We just wanna be seen. And I know this sounds silly in a bit of a you know, I I was just speaking to you before we joined this that I've just been away. We never book a hotel because of fear and worry. I've had top surgery. I've got 2 scars on my chest. I wanna swim in a pool. I wanna lay out, and I worry about how people look at me or perceive our relationship. So we always have to spend more on booking somewhere private for us. And when we booked it, we mentioned that we were celebrating our anniversary to basically see how the host will feel about us, to get a a vague idea, to be like, we're just putting out there, we are LGBTQ plus. And she gave us a bottle of Prosecco and said it was your it's your anniversary. And she remembered months later that I felt so seen and acknowledged in an island I've never been. Even that was massive. You know? Even just to be like, I see your relationship, and I appreciate it, meant everything. Yeah. I I hear that comp I see what you're saying there Joanne Lockwood: completely. And I suppose I'm I'm old enough and ugly enough and resilient enough to not even think about that anymore. You know, my wife and I were in Bournemouth for a party weekend. We checked into the hotel. I didn't even give it a thought there'd be a problem. I guess I've traded off a 50 of in hotels. And the thing is, I don't think I've changed. Obviously, I look different to other people, and our relationship with my wife has changed since my gender transition. But I don't I don't feel different inherently. So I I forget that I should have a problem, and therefore I don't, if you like if that makes sense. I don't I've never never socialized myself into into that sense of of self doubt, which means that Ellen Edenbrow: Yeah. I wonder I don't see the problems. Without getting I feel like I'm gonna take you off Joanne a tangent now. I wonder if there's an element of I was raised as female on this planet and didn't really acknowledge my non binary identity until kind of mid COVID. So for many, many years, I identified as a woman on this Joanne. And with that, you are very aware of certain things. You know, I had top surgery coming on 2 years soon, and I can now post my nipples on Instagram, which was a really weird feeling because for years I was told I couldn't do that. And now I'm like, oh, my nipples are on the Internet. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but, like, I was I was told for years to hide myself of what I could and couldn't do in society. And what's really fascinating is I used to get misgendered as a man a lot before my top surgery, and I've never had it once post top surgery. So I'm now flat chested, and I've never been misgendered as a man once. And my wife has thinks it's because I don't hold space. I still, you know, that classic thing of men don't move out the way in pavements. They'll, you know, they they won't move out the way left or right. They just walk in a straight line. My wife's really determined that now we walk in a straight line. We don't move out the way, but I still do. I don't take up space on the plane and spread my legs wide, as I saw a man doing the other day, and a woman felt so uncomfortable, she moved because it was a half empty plane. You know, I'm re and and I that conditioning of me growing up of the space I should and shouldn't take, I think that plays in my mind when I still go on holidays, because I've I've still got that fear and worry. I think there is on the plus side, you know, to other people in the community, some people may not see me as non binary, right? They still might think I'm a butch woman. But there's a privilege with that because Wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and downs, wouldn't be as accepted, you know? So there are there are ups and downs, but, we often look we we we didn't book a whole we didn't book a honeymoon for quite a while, because we couldn't decide where we wanted to be. Because we think about not only we're also very aware of our white privilege, you know, I there there was a friend of mine who went on a honeymoon to a country where it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus. And I thought, what are you doing? You know, just because you are safe as a tourist on that resort, you're giving money to a country that if you were born there, you'd have a very different life. So when we book a holiday, it's not just where's the weather, where is it nice. It's where will we be okay as tourists? Secondly, where would it be okay if we were born there? You know, Spain is now 5th in Europe in terms of being LGBTQ plus. We're now 14th as a country. So I was probably safer in New York than I was here, which is quite scary when this is home. Yeah. I know it's we we went to Melbourne, Joanne Lockwood: Australia, before lockdown, and I was very conscious about the route we took. I didn't feel comfortable stopping off at Dubai Mhmm. With route or flying Emirates. So we ended up going via Hong Kong because I decided Hong Kong was the least worst option to to transit through. I didn't wanna go through China. I didn't wanna go through Emirates. And Jo, yeah, I was very conscious of that. Jo, yeah, I am about where I can go. I was born in Singapore. I know that Singapore now changed its law, and it's very much more LGBTQ friendly. But where I lived was in Malaysia, which is over the Causeway. And in Malaysia, it's still punishable by death, I believe, If you're queer, maybe Joanne. I don't know. Yeah. So it certainly is a a same sex couple as we are now. That would be frowned upon. So, yeah, I'm I'm hyphen aware of the my ability to travel is now different than it was. Oh. I I I was at a Ellen Edenbrow: barbecue yes yesterday, and someone I know is moving to Australia because of her partner's job. And they were talking about flying with guitar and stopping guitar. And I'm just like, you don't you don't realize. And she is within our group. There's loads of LGBTQ plus people, loads of non binary and trans people. And look, I appreciate to get to Australia. There's only so many places you can stop and go in so many airlines, but. You know, it's, I, I see a lot of people just go into Dubai and there's, there's, there's numerous things going on over there, which aren't great. But yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think, being LGBTQ plus, being trans, being non binary, you're so aware of your body in every space, to the point where I don't think we realize just how traumatic and heavy that is because we're just so used to it. Yeah. But I was to what you said about your nipples. I Joanne Lockwood: mean, I I'm I'm more conscious about my nipples now that I yeah. I used to fork on the beach for that show on, and now I wouldn't do that. And, and you talked about minimizing And whilst, as you I said, I'm old enough and ugly enough and resilient enough, but I I I minimize. I I let people pass on the pavement. I will walk out of the way. I will stop and let someone offer a man pass. And if someone opens the door for me, I'm I I I accept it with grace. And the other day, I was I was checking to a hotel. There's a big staircase, and I was I got up the first step, and this man comes, oh, excuse me. Let me take your back upstairs for you. Great. Brilliant. How valid how validating is that? You see, when someone opened Ellen Edenbrow: the door for me, and it's Joanne Malamore was like, nope. You first. I make a point of making them go first. But, yeah, it's it's interesting, isn't it? Like, the the the the the difference of of of how we're experiencing a similar but different journey. Yeah. I'm very aware that we're now talking about nipples, which is probably what what were you expecting on a Monday morning. Joanne Lockwood: Honestly, we we I've talked about all things on this, I've talked about, trans health care and surgery before, and we've got very detailed and what that means to people. Jo, yeah, now it's it's important that we these conversations are had because we shouldn't be embarrassed. And that's what happens when we look at conversations around things like menopause. They've been buried for years. We we now need to have those conversations about menopause with an intersectional gender gender diversity lens on them as well. You know, the intersect of people are non binary Joanne trans trans feminine, trans masculine people, which is blowing people's brains out there. Well, I thought I had menopause sorted, but you've put another dimension on it for me. And then we Right. We're gonna talk about gender neutral packaging and taking the femininity imagery away from period products and and the whole, gynecological kind of process is excluding, you know, people like yourself, people who are transmasculate, who have needs these services, and we're not careful what we're doing to experience people through the language we're using. I mean, I am Ellen Edenbrow: I've I'm turning 29, so I've I've had my second smear now, because of my age. It starts at 25. And first time was COVID, and I had a mask and that an that anonymousness helped, with going for that other GP. But this time I chose specifically go to, an LGBTQ plus, kind of sexual health partnership in Leeds as a charity that works with the sexual health clinic and they do a specific trans and non binary opening session. So you feel acknowledged straight away and the only, you know, questions will be asked in a considered way. But what's, what's ironic is I'm, I'm also talking to my GP at the moment and trying to help them with their kind of trans policies and, and training and stuff. And I was still getting calls from them with miss so and so, and I'm like, why why do I need a title? Also, I've been told I got the call a week or 2 later after being at the GP, and and they say, oh, yeah. I can I can see you've had that Joanne it's come back negative? So why are you ringing me again? And then that misgen like, why can't we how is this Ellen? Like, again, people think we're being nitpicky, but lots of people don't like titles for lots of different reasons. You know, we we have our first name for a reason. And, again, why do we need pink packaging for every sanitary product? You know, just a packet. Like, it it again, it it so much it's like with disabilities. Was that famous little cartoon image? It's been snowing, the snow on the steps and the snow on the ramp, and they scrape the snow off the steps first. But if you just do it on the ramp, everyone can use it. You know, they was talking about, if you think about on streets in the UK, the ramps that go down with the bumps, that's for people to use to to to see where the end of the roads are, but it helps people with prams. It helps people that are elderly, maybe just use a stick with mobility or for different reasons, mobility aids. It doesn't just help people that are like a wheelchair users. It helps so many more people and that's inclusion and diversity. When we're changing these policies, we're not doing it. You know, I I've looked at so many policies and given suggestions. It's completely intersectional. It's considering, it's advocating for fathers. It's people that adopt and carers of all different ages, because caring now, I think Jo many people have just assumed it's people with with children. But we didn't think about the aging population. We're thinking about kind of millennials and now caring for their parents and loved ones. We've all, I've always seen it from so broad, you know, even with inclusive health now. I think there's a lot of LGBTQ plus people, who do just specific LGBTQ plus training and things like that, but we really wanted to broaden it. Don't get me wrong. I think as you've kind of hinted with things at the moment, the most inquiries we are getting are LGBTQ plus with, with healthcare at the moment. And I guess for anyone listening who is LGBTQ plus, who has loved ones that are LGBTQ plus, you're hearing certain things in the media, but I promise you there's more people in health care that are trying to advocate this stuff than you are being told to believe. We are still getting a lot of interest from trusts, from health care charities that are wanting to be proactive with trans and non binary patients. So try and not take everything. So for example, the NHS rainbow badge, for those that are listening aren't aware of that, You might have seen the badge. It simply started as a project in which you just wore a lanyard. You put this badge on it that basically hinted that you will be considerate of LGBTQ plus people. It then became a bit more formal and people can do now a bit more looking at the data and what services they do and don't provide, to where with a bit more pride and reassurance of patients. And we've been told in LGBTQ plus history, not that February has been scrapped. It hasn't fully been scrapped. It's still happening. It's just happening in a different way. So I'm also not saying everything's wonderful in the healthcare, but there are a lot of people with reduced budgets, with reduced time. They are still trying their very best with this conversation and every trust is different and every trust can kind of do their own thing. So if that's kind of reassuring to anyone listening, I promise people are still caring about this stuff. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: What you see in the the mainstream media that is is right of center isn't necessarily is we know it's sensationalized. We know it's blown up a promotion. It is worrying that the the pervasiveness of this kind of negative messaging is exhausting. I mean, you probably feel it. Maybe it's because of the way I set my search up and have I opened things like MSN or these dashboards Yeah. Or the or the negative articles I see day in, day out. And it's it's like a tone, you know, it's almost like every time, so here we go again. Here we go again. And also the the Joanne communities, and I hate we're not really community. We're just a group of people who happen to share the same oppression. That's kind of what goes on. We amplify the negative stuff as well. Have you seen this stuff on there? Have you seen I get more negativity out of some of the the transgender forums I want on Facebook and I do if I if I didn't go on there. So I think to a certain extent, we are impacting our own mental health by by amplifying some of the content within our own communities. And I think that that in a way, it's I've got, you know, put the filter on sometimes and not dive in there. Ellen Edenbrow: Yeah. I mean, look, Lou, it's it's been an interesting time to set up this business with my identity of being non binary and with the news in literally the past couple of weeks. We've had the CAS report come out. We've had news that they're thinking about doing private rooms for trans patients. Supposedly, again, I heard literally just 2 weeks ago that new hospital designs, they're looking at giving everyone a private room rather than the ward thing. So, you know, that could be the future of that anyway, which again, I think would benefit everyone's health. I I I've actually I Joanne Lockwood: I I sent I sent the news about, you know, the they wanna keep wards single sex, Jo they if if you if you turn to a trans person, they're they're gonna put you in a private room. I was thinking, where's the downside to that? I mean, I'm like I'd like to lie. I prefer I'm I Ellen Edenbrow: I But, it depends, I guess, where those private rooms are connected to if they're in, like, a women's section or a men's section, etcetera. And I I had my, Joanne Lockwood: gallbladder out during COVID, actually. I was I had to be swabbed and stuff, and they let me in. And they wheeled me into this female ward. And then 30 seconds later, they wheeled me out, said, oh, you shouldn't be in here. This is a this is a women's ward. And I went, yeah. And where else will I go? And so I I started trying to question this person pushing me out out of the room with the on the trolley. And they backtrack quickly and say, no. No. It's because you haven't had your COVID swap yet, so we can't put you in there. Alright. Okay. That's a better answer. I'm happy with that answer. So we're gonna put you in a private room. I said, I'm really happy with that answer as well. You know, you can leave in this private room where you like. So having experienced the the confusion by the staff around who I was, Ellen Edenbrow: I don't think I even spoken at that point. I mean, they must have I Joanne Lockwood: don't know. Maybe they decided my brow ridge was was the wrong shape or something. So they they they decided who I was without asking me. But, yeah, I think if we're going to put people in private wards, we haven't got the capacity. And what it's doing is create this fear mongering around. You know, you've probably seen this as stats and data and freedom of information requests. There's been there's been one complaint by a a cisgendered female about a trans person being on that ward. Yeah. There'd be more complaints around people who have a different ethnicity or faith complaining about other things related to their ethnicity around something that isn't gender related. And you think, we're making this stuff up. We're making these facts up for to scare people where no problem actually exists. The most scared person on that world will probably be Ellen Edenbrow: the trans woman. You know, I am regularly scared to go to the toilet. You know? I if I have to go into a toilet, I always try and talk as I go into the toilet so people can hear my voice. So I don't get as much of a look. And again, that makes me uncomfortable because that's not how I wanna be represented and look and feel. But you you there's there's so much again, it's a it's a terrible quote, but there's a there's a rapper in America called Macklemore. It's not a great reference. It's not like some incredible author, it's a rapper, but he says America, the brave still fears what it doesn't know. And I think it's so true. People fear what they don't understand. We are ish 1% of the population. So a lot of people think they've never met a trans person. They have, they've just not known it because they think we all look and sound and have to be a certain way. And as we know, that's not the case, but people just don't understand. And I think sometimes, you know, for, for those listening and if they have any budget with pride or they, they have a, an, an allyship or a privilege angle that they can get a speaker in or something, just try and get someone trans and non binary into your organisation this year. And just get people to unlearn some of their assumptions. We're just people wanting to go about, about our lives, who want a healthcare appointment about a bad back or a bad shoulder, who want to fall in love, adopt a cat, adopt a dog, have mates, have a job. That's it. That's all we want. We just wanna live. And if any, I can't wait for the trans community to stop being in the news and it just be a bit more quiet. I I, you know, I probably have a cry on a weekly basis, and I just think I just wanted it to be quiet. It just feels so loud. You know, there's incredible stats of newspapers doing 2 or 3 articles every day about trans people, and not one trans person writes them. I'm like, have you got nothing else to talk about? Like, the trans community right now are like, please talk about anything else. Cost of living, conflicts that are happening globally. Like, that's more important than us. We actually don't want this attention. We don't want this focus. And again, I think a big thing with inclusion and diversity, yes, the training's important, but sometimes just and I appreciate some people are not are not sure about inclusion, diversity dates, and calendar, and I think it's tick boxing, but there's something to be said for showing joy and celebration and normality. You know, just seeing people like me and you living their lives in happy relationships with families and loved ones, and just be like, we're normal too. We're not as scary as people make out. That's so valuable and so important. You know, showing black joy, showing disabled joy, you know, just showing how people live their lives and they're not scary. We're not scary people. You know, trans and non binary people have a really interesting outlook on life and the world. And I think, I think we're possibly some of the bravest people globally, because we have gone against everything we've ever been taught. No one ever taught us what trans was. Section 28 stopped a lot of people in terms of their education, and prior to section 28, just wasn't around, and we're still seeing the impact of section 28 in terms of education. Right? We were never taught this stuff yet, we still deeply feel it. You know, I am very proud of being LGBTQ plus I love being gay with everything about me. But at the moment, I think I would if I could if someone said, if you could click your fingers and be straight, would you? Absolutely not. I love everything about being LGBTQ plus. It's incredible that you meet people and you feel a connection to them instantly, like no one else. It's that little look you give each other being like, I understand you and you understand me, although we've never met and I don't know your name, but we just get each other a little bit. But I think I would change non binary at the moment. If I could click my finger, just so I could just stop feeling so much at all turns and all opportunities. You know? You can't welcome a plumber into your house without fear or worry of misgendered. You can't go to Tesco without fear or worry. You can't go to the park or say hello to a dog walker without fear or worry of just that misgenderedness constantly, and, you know, it's it's everywhere. And that's how I came to terms with my identity during COVID. We had these 4 walls, and I thought, who the blooming hell am I to the world? Like, how do people see me, and how do I want the world to see me? It was only when I wasn't out there in the world constantly, possibly hiding who I was, that I could start being who I was because of our without fear or worry of other people. And I think there's something incredible to learn about trans and non binary people. I think a lot of cisgender straight people could learn from us in that. I think a lot of people, the the the the boxes of femininity and masculinity, they just feel like they have to fit in them because they've not been told that they can do anything else. And I think people could learn a lot of just life skills in terms of attitude and outlook of just being authentic and brave, because we're incredibly brave people. We shouldn't have to be, but we are. Yeah. It takes a lot to press Joanne Lockwood: pause on your life, rewrite it, and then press play again. And it's like you're swapping track in the middle of, you know, you you fast forwarding to another another part of the album, starting to play again. You go, hang on. All the beats are different. I was just just humming along to that tune, and now it's all changed. It's all Yeah. Yeah. It is. And and those around you, I often talked about my I've talked about my transition. Was more about other people than it was about me. I kinda transitioned by spinning on the spot. Everybody else had this huge arc to get over, to understand, to try and yeah. The world didn't change from my perspective. It still looks the same. And Ellen Edenbrow: what's crazy is you didn't change. You're still making the same jokes. You're still having the same opinions, like, maybe just an outwardly look change, but that was it. You used to Joanne Lockwood: I've had this conversation with my wife many times, and she tells me not to be so disingenuous that I haven't changed. And because I I have I actually I have changed a lot. My my our outlook on life, the way I interact with the world is is is different. The way I take up less space is different. Yeah. I I am I am I am a very different person. But that's through a lot of circumstances, not just Yeah. Expressing my femininity. So I had to stop saying to people, I'm I'm the same person on the inside because people keep looking at me and saying, that's not bollocks. You know, you may you may think you may think you're the same person on the inside, but we don't see it. We don't see it at all. And it's not just how I look, it's how I am, which was very affirming in a way. Mhmm. If you don't mind me asking, in because we kind of hinted Ellen Edenbrow: on that earlier, didn't we, in terms of me taking space and us thinking different things in different settings and holidays and outlooks. Do you think that was something you were aware of before transitioning? You you you had that awareness of that outlook of how other people experienced the world, and you felt like you couldn't go down that path because that was not what the world expected of you, or was it a real unawareness? I Joanne Lockwood: think I became resocialized, and I often say that the challenge with transitioning, when you're growing up, you you learn, and you learn, you learn, you pick up information, you pick up information. But when you change transition or become non binary or out yourself as non binary, you you have to unlearn and then relearn. So you have to forget some of the social constructs you've you've been brought up, the oxygen you breathe, and relearn again. So I I had to unlearn a lot of things I'd I'd I'd I'd I'd been aware of. And because most of my my professional network and people I hang out with tend now to be women, I'm picking up the social construct of being female from them, and that is around minimization. It is around the jokes, the humor, the conversations, the how how men are talked about and how women are talked about by men. I'm more aware of that. I'm more aware of the, and I don't mean this in an absolute, the predatory nature nature that men often have without realizing it. And they're not being deliberately, but I feel less safe in those environments. I see what happens when groups of men get drunk now. And I'm more aware for my safety than I ever was before. Ellen Edenbrow: Right. So, yeah, I I am more aware of that, and I'm I'm Joanne Lockwood: conscious of it, which I was never conscious of it in in any shape or form before. I was sat at dinner at Le Mans dinner probably a year ago, and it got to about half 9 at the in the evening. And a couple of the women I sat next to said, oh, half 9. But the thing about going in a minute, it's it's gonna get messy in here. It's gonna be there's drink flowing. I don't wanna be on the last train. I gotta get on the underground. It's a bit late, and I'm a bit worried. If I leave it any later, it's gonna be too late. I need I need I need to get out of here and get home. And there was a real safety thing going on. I just sort of thought, wow, that that level of socialization has never been in my head. I've never never thought, uh-oh. But then having said that, I've been on the late trains home some nights. I'm thinking, I actually feel very worried now. Yeah. There was a drunk person talking to me a bit, and then there was some stuff going on. I thought, hang on a minute. I feel really, really unsafe because somehow I then internalized all that thinking, hang on a minute, this thing kicks kicks off here. I'm not prepared to deal with this. I don't want to deal with this. So, yeah, it's I became very aware of my own vulnerability all of a sudden. And again, that I think Ellen Edenbrow: that can happen to people for different reasons at different times in their life, you know, and, but it's a really unique experience at such a grand level for, for, for trans non binary people. I have a really interesting privilege when it comes to kind of things we've just been talking about in terms of, look, I, I came out at 14 as gay, 15 from, from the age of 2 or 3. I was saying to my mum what I wanted to wear and not wear. Like, I very much knew who I was before I was taught or learned anything. And in society, I mean, there was no representation, but I still knew I wanted to wear that Buzz Lightyear t shirt and not that dress from like 2 or 3. And I've I've always been quite butch in my identity. I have quite short hair from from quite a young Joanne. And I've never there's not one woman I don't know, trans or cis, that hasn't had an experience of some kind of assault, sexual assault. And what's fascinating is that I never have. And I think it's really interesting to talk about sexualization. I think because of my butch identity, and I'm sitting down, but I've got a bit of a butch walk that I don't even realize I have, I've never I've never really been sexualized. Now the last time I was kind of sexualized was I wore the last time I ever wore a dress at university, I was in a hockey team, and there was, like, a sports night, and I wore a dress, and that was 2013. And some of my male friends what was interesting is barely any of the men there was, like, 6 hockey teams on the men's and the women's side. It was very binary, obviously. And barely any of the men were interested in talking to me, because I was the only gay out person. So that I was never gonna be someone they were gonna possibly have any relations with. So barely any of them got to know me. And I really noticed that, compared to everybody else, no one ever really spoke to me. But there was 2 or 3 that still got to know me, And they changed that night. I was in a dress. Their whole approach to me changed, it complete and I never wore a dress again. I still worry and fear, you know, late nights walking down certain alleys I'm I, you know, I I would still avoid and and and I still check-in with my friends. But because I'm not not many men would be sexually attracted to me, I feel safer, if that makes sense. So I I I've I've I've I've grown up that way and I've been taught that and I've been around many conversations. I've been really privy to so many people's experiences of it's getting dark and I've been really aware of that, But I'm in this really bizarre privileged group. It's really weird slither of because of my masculinity, I feel safer That I won't but I there's still the worry that I'll get the the non binary transphobia side of things, but in terms of my body. And then that's really interesting because you kind of mentioned surgery earlier, and a really interesting reflection for those that don't know. So I had top surgery, had my, my breast removed, and I went private because the NHS, it would take many, many years, and my mental health couldn't cope with that. And I had to pay for a psychiatrist appointment. So I had to pay for a stranger to speak to me for an hour to agree with how I felt about myself. And was I was ironic that he barely knew what non binary was, but he was supposedly the professional. And I I remember he would ask me to repeat things in our call because he's like, oh, I'll let I'll write that down. I basically wrote my own referral letter that the surgeon needed because the surgeon was worried about being sued and things like that. And it's kind of a they don't wanna do that, the surgeons, because I think they have a really good understanding, but they're just they're so much fear and worry at the moment. They have to have that. And I thought it was really fascinating is because I was removing something that society has sexualized, I had to be psychologically evaluated that if I was okay. But if you want a bum lift, if you want a nose job, if you want filler, if you want a boob enhancement, none of that is done. People get their knees operated on to be taller. Right? A lot of cisgendered men have these operations to get their, you know, hair lines done to make them feel more confident in their gender. Right? So many people do so many so much stuff. I think it's just trans non binary people that say we have gender affirming health care, which old language was things like sex change, but gender affirming health care is basically the idea that people do things to feel more confident in their bodies. And cisgender people do that too. Getting your nails done, getting your hair done. We all feel better after a haircut. People get filler because they're worried about their lips or Botox because their wrinkles. Everyone does gender affirming health care, you know, yet because I was removing something that's sexualized, I had to be evaluated. But people can change their bodies in many different ways, and that doesn't need to be checked. And, again, that's the sexualization that comes in with health care, which is really fascinating. Yeah. I think we Joanne Lockwood: we have to respect the fact that there are some people who transitioning either binary transitioning or non binary transitioning, is not right for them. We have to accept that it's not right for everybody. And I'm the first one to say, if you don't need to, don't. Yeah. It's not it's not a party. It's not one long gay parade that you're you're riding a wave of of of unicorns and and and fluffy stuff all the time. It's real life, you know. If and if you don't need to, it's not necessary if you don't do anything. So I, you know, I I'm hugely respectful of people who have evaluated their life, their needs, what matters to them, and it's not for them. I'm hugely respectful for that. And I also believe that everyone should be given the opportunity to be in that questioning phase of their life for however long it takes and move forward or move backwards or move sideways or do what they want. So I'm I'm actually I'm extremely protective of that right, but, yeah, it it does become problematic sometimes when we're focusing on the the the significant minority of the minority who where who have are litigating against health care professionals, claiming that they they were forced into a root when inevitably actually, they they they must have lied through their health care evaluation in order to be taken seriously. I've been through psychiatric evaluations for to get hormones. I've been through psychiatric evaluations to discuss surgery and various other things. And they would only put me through if I if they put if they recognize that I understood I have informed consent. I understand the implications. They're quite clear. This could kill you, that this could cause irreparable damage. You will never be able to reverse this. You will never be able to have have children again. Yes. I understand all those things. Yes. So you go through this really deep thing. And it's not just once. It's you know, I've I think I've had 7 gender identity clinic appointments to get to where I am, and they ask very similar questions. And it's it's not like they're week week in week out. This is, like, years between them. I have to be very pervasive. I have to be I I can't just sort of say, oh, yeah, I want to do this next month. I can't. I I have to think I wanna do this next decade. No one would if we had choice, Ellen Edenbrow: no one would do this. We spend a crazy amount of money and time and energy, and we have to be so vulnerable. No one goes into this stuff easily. It's not a, it's not a whim decision. Oh, I'm going to go on holiday next week. Like this is stuff that it's months, it's years in waiting, even when you pay privately, you know, it's, it's not an easy decision to go under the knife and have major surgery. You know, it's not something I just thought, oh, I fancy having a bit of time off work. I'll go and have major operation, you know, loads of muscles cut. And, you know, like, it's not something and there's, you know, there's some crazy stats have come out. Let's see if I've got them quickly on my phone. But in terms of how many people regret surgery, it is so slim, and I don't can't find the stuff, but it's such a small amount. More people regret having a shoe. Less than 1%. Less than 1%. Less than 1%. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. People regret having a haircut Right. More. Yeah. Having a treatment. Yeah. You say it's well, I had a I don't know if I was a psychologist around considering my my future options or where I wanted to take myself. And one thing they said, which I thought was really weird at the time, was think about yourself in your old age when you're when you're then in a care home, in a nursing home, whatever. How do you want to be? Who do you who are you at that point? And I thought and I thought, And he was encouraging me to think about the choices I made based on my later life. And I didn't do anything about drama. I thought it was a bit cheeky and a bit transphobic the way he was talking to me. But I've recently, in the last 18 months, been thrown into Sam's generation. Well, we've been looking after our parents, our elderly parents in their late eighties and early nineties, in care homes, in nursing homes. And it made me realize that if I want agency over myself, I have to make those decisions today. Yeah. Because when I get to that point in the future, I will have less opportunity to advocate for what matters to me unless I've made those proactive choices Mhmm. Now, not later. It really made me realize around some of the things I have to do around about for my advocacy and agency and self empowerment later, not for now. And that I had a I had a similar Ellen Edenbrow: moment, but reflection of question to myself in terms of when someone asked that to you about what age Joanne what situation, who and how do you wanna be? I had that with, if we have a child and I want to have skin on skin, cause I don't wanna carry, how do I want my body to be? And I wouldn't I would feel like my baby wasn't close to me if I didn't have my top surgery. Even my mum, like after seeing me out, you know, bandages off the first time was like, I wish I could have get, I wish I could have ordered this for you because it makes so much sense, you know? And part of her upset and worry about my surgery was, of course, to seeing your child go under major surgery, you worry and fear as with every operation there's risk, but it was, she was upset that she'd brought me into a world in a way that I wasn't happy with myself. And that was her upset. And I think what's interesting, secondly, is what you're talking about there is my work is work in the hospice at the moment. At the start of the year, we had our first, My my auntie was in hospice, and there was a lot of ableism with her care, with her learning disability, and that's an inquest at the moment. And we're looking at working with that hospice. And it really that is what there's something we're all gonna experience, right, is death. Unfortunately, only a small amount of people experience hospices, and I don't know if you've had experienced hospices, but they're beautiful. Like, they're incredible. Everyone, if they can't die at home, deserves to die in a hospice, because it's also so vital for everyone that's left, because that's what happens after. And those people that are left, like, hospices are incredible. I actually missed going in, which is a really weird thing to say, but I like, the next day after my auntie passed, I was like, I wanna go back. They also have great hot chocolates, but I missed it. And and we were thinking recently, like, if that's me, even if I if I'm at a space where, you know, I can't hear and I can't understand things anymore, if I'm if I'm getting misgendered in front of Anna, my wife, like, that will hurt her. Like, that's health care. It's not just the patient. It's also those around them, seeing them, hearing them, seeing their relationships. You know, if you got a loved one on the side of the bed, not being like, oh, is your husband coming in? Like, don't assume that. There's already enough going on. It's just gonna make them feel like they're not heard or seen or respected. And I know there's that assumption, but don't assume it's 2024. We can still ask open questions, and that's health care. Again, so much what we want to do with inclusive health is, yes, there's little you know, there needs to be improvements when it comes to medical students, you know, in terms of the images that they see, you know, for skin cancers, it's always on white skin. Like that needs to be advanced. That needs to be improved on. But it's just the questions and the considerations that can change things. And it's just the tone and the approach that can that's the trust. That's the bit where trust comes from, isn't it? As a patient. Because you're Jo vulnerable with your health care. Right? Like you were saying, you just got wheeled out. Like, you were laying down. Like, you couldn't stop it. There was no breaks for you. You You know, you're really vulnerable in health care because it's it's it's other people prodding and poking you, and I feel so lucky to have Anna to advocate for me who knows this stuff. But when you don't know health care stuff, you're really putting your body on the line for people to make decisions about you, and you lose all of your own self. You know? So if I have someone else also see you when you can't make the decisions or have even that's vital. And that's what inclusive health is about. It's just saying, look, have that awareness, have that acknowledgement. Because if you don't, this is the impact. You know, we saw more people of color die during COVID. There were several reasons for that. They were more likely to have front facing public facing roles to put them at risk and stuff, but it was the comms. It was the messaging. It was not acknowledging what fear certain communities had over medicalized spaces, because think about the colonization of health care in the past and, you know, not having that awareness. You don't have to understand everything with I and d. To be an ally, as I'm sure you'll admit, Jo and me, I do not know everything about inclusion and diversity. It's a blooming impossible. There's 8,000,000,000 of us, but you can understand without having you can respect without having to understand everything. I can respect someone's faith. I don't have to understand every single bit of the Quran, but I can respect that that person has that, you know, and there's good and bad with everyone. There'll be bad trans people. I don't like to admit it, but there will be, there'll be not some very nice trans people. There'll be not some very nice disabled people and Muslim people and x, y, and zed. But there's more good than bad, And it's just it's just humanness. It's just seeing a person. There's always so much more in common than not. I I I'm a I'm a big advocate at what you say. I'm Joanne Lockwood: I have Joanne inherent belief that people are start off wanting to do good, wanting to be kind, and that in their mind, they are. They're speaking through their lived experience, their lens. They believe they're doing the right thing. And it's just that their their perspective, their opinion is slightly different to mine. But we all want the same thing. As you say, there's more there's more that unites us than than different differentiates us. So we've got to focus on the fact that, actually, we all want the same thing. Happy life, health, world peace. We all inherently want that, and we think we're doing it in our way. Yeah. And it's avoiding sort of weaponizing or discriminating for our own self to somebody else, putting somebody else's down for our benefit, if you like. So yeah, it's, it's, that's all that's all the I and D is around. It's around creating a culture of belonging. People feel welcomed. They feel celebrated. They feel they can thrive who they are. And people will spot any inequities and give them the support they need to be able to succeed in that. And I think that's fundamentally what we're talking about here, isn't it? And it's not it's not about hashtags and parties and cakes and banners and marches and and changing language to make people feel uncomfortable. It's just creating a I always talk about adjective language. I'm not sure that's a word, additional language. So it's not you're not removing the word mother and chase and changing mother for childbirth or child bearer or whatever the words are. It's saying mothers and and mechanizing there are other people who don't identify as a mother. Not taking away the word mother, just putting the making sure the the expansiveness of the language being used encompasses everybody without creating an an other. We don't wanna be othered. We want to be anded. Or It's a bit like all that fear. I mean, quite Ellen Edenbrow: a few years ago now, it was kind of a big one. Oh, primary schools can't say Christmas anymore. And there was this like, all this fear and it's like, oh, we can't say mother's day anymore. No, no one's blooming saying that. Like, these communities are actually saying that. It's just, you know, I I saw recently that nearly like 60% of all journalists are privately educated. You know, even just that in terms of their understanding of the world and their experience of the world when they're writing from a journalist point of view is wholly different to the majority of the population. That's only one angle of a person's background and awareness. It's just to anyone listening, And look, the most people listening to this will be people that already get it, but all ads, and unfortunately, but there'll be people and we all have family and friends who who maybe don't get it to the same degree. And it's just opening their eyes to be a bit more critical to what they're seeing. They're they're especially again, and this is the importance of allyship. 99% of people are cisgendered. Those little 1%. We have done a lot. Don't get me wrong. We it's actually quite incredible, the the coverage of our movement. Yes. It doesn't seem positive right now, but the handful of people that have have got that story out there and that language out there, it's rather remarkable what they've done, but we can't change that anymore for us now. We now need the 99%, and that's in boardrooms. That's as a manager. You know, the women's movement can't change without men. The LGBTQ plus movement can't move without the straight community, and that's that importance of allyship. We're here. So allies listening right now, book an LGBTQ plus person. Doesn't have to be in pride. It could be another time. We don't have to talk about being LGBTQ plus. We can talk about other things, recruitment training, you know, whatever it is. But having an LGBTQ plus voice and just normalizing us is vital. Giving us a platform, you know, and and that's, that's also really important. We don't always just have to talk about this. We can talk about other stuff and show that awareness, but there's a time and place for us to talk about this too. And, yeah, this stuff benefits everybody. But I do sometimes wonder, do we need to change the language? I appreciate it was EDNI, then I and D and DNI, and it always changes, but it's got such bad press. Do we need to rebrand? What don't ask me what to. What do we need to rebrand to make people realize that this stuff benefits everybody? When we're looking at menopause policies, we are editing it to change it and help everybody. Perimenopause, for example, you know, wasn't really a thing that it was always assumed it was people of a certain age. We're now realizing that isn't always the case. You know, endometriosis and how that impacts people. It's we're not always doing it from one angle. You know, I'm sure that when you look at things, you're seeing it from many different angles, even though you've maybe nobody asked or paid to do it from one angle. You've said, actually, I've also seen this. I'd recommend this. You know, we are trying to just help everybody because especially, you know, moving to self employedness really, and COVID was a great realization that a lot of people spend more time in work than they do with their loved ones. Especially those that are still forced into offices. That's a lot of your life. And at the start of this podcast, I said, we have 2 things in life, time and health. It's really all we've got. And that was a choice for me to become self employed was and I appreciate I'm only 28, and maybe COVID, I had an early realization, some people don't have that until later life. And I was like, all we have is time. And I feel very vulnerable with my health because there's sometimes there's things that you you can't stop it. You can't prevent it. We can look after our bodies as much as we can, but it's a blooming lottery. Isn't it? If we have good health or bad health, and we never know when that's gonna come, but it's a really vulnerable thing to be at. So again, if inclusive health can change one health professional of how they see something or assume something in later life, If that could save a life or build trust for a future life saving thing, you don't know what impact that's gonna have. And so much of allyship is you never get a pat on the back with allyship because you might never know the outcome of your actions or your words, but I promise you people will feel it and will experience it. And I remember one, the I did some training for a new job to a random organisation. I can't remember who they were. And I got an email the next day from someone that was on that call that said, I joined your session yesterday. Job done. I could retire now. Didn't have the money to retire, but I job done. I could retire now. Didn't have the money to retire, but I've maybe helped one little boy's mental health and that he feel like he can say, who is this? Just family. He can bring someone home that he loves. That family, maybe have a better unity in the future as a result. That that's life changing. To several people, that could be life changing. Thankfully, they emailed me and told me that, and it stayed with me and it always will. But you may not get that email, but just know that you feel it. Our Airbnb host gave us that bottle of Prosecco, probably didn't realize how much it meant to us, but that'll stay with me, that there is hope. Ellen, Joanne Lockwood: thank you. What a what a conversation. I've really enjoyed How can people get hold of you? Tell us about your your company website, your LinkedIn profile. How do people get in touch? Yeah. So we're on ww.inclusivehealth.co.uk. Ellen Edenbrow: You'll find us there on shock horror, but not many people have the name Ellen Edenbrow. I'm rarity. Jo do check me out. I'm there to find also Inclusive Health on LinkedIn. And look at the moment, we, as as you'll probably know, Joe, And, look, at the moment, we as as you'll probably know, Joe, when you started this stuff, we're putting ourselves out there. We're not sure where we're gonna go and how we're gonna get there, and we're kind of reacting to what people want. Every charity, every trust, every organisation wants something different. We're doing it to spoke to to what they need, their needs, their wants. I'm also looking at building my own website at the moment, Ellen Edenbrow, because, as I said, I've worked in private sector. I've worked in charity sector, public sector. I've consulted with 28 businesses for 2 years on everything that they're doing, and it's it's just again, it's it's it's talking about recruitment. It's talking about law. It's talking about your banter and your bullying, but just having someone that's Joanne, non binary, giving that intersectionality and putting that out there. But we're really excited with healthcare and It's it's really exciting to see, you know, I'm doing a session soon and supporting people that give group and support to young people that are in families and communities with drug and alcohol abuse and supporting their LGBTQ plus service users. And the the power of that's incredible of who who that's gonna help and how it's gonna help. We're talking to hospices. So just giving people dignity to their health care. Thank you once again. As we Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion strike a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.