--- title: "Cultural Intelligence For Harnessing Diversity" episode: 123 date: 2024-08-22 guest: "Ritika Wadwha" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/123-cultural-intelligence-for-harnessing-diversity audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-123/audio.mp3 --- # Cultural Intelligence For Harnessing Diversity Joanne Lockwood is joined by Ritika Wadhwa, founder and CEO of Prabhaav Global, for a wide-ranging discussion on Cultural Intelligence (CQ) and why it has become a practical capability for modern leadership. Ritika breaks CQ down into four capabilities—drive, knowledge, strategy, and action—and explains how the framework moves organisations beyond awareness into accountable behaviour change. Together they explore common inclusion barriers in workplaces, including fear of getting it wrong, passive leadership habits, and the way “one-size-fits-all” expectations can lead to stereotyping rather than better collaboration. The conversation also draws on Ritika’s lived experience as an immigrant from India, reflecting on the impact of systems, power distance, and post-colonial narratives on how people are treated and how they learn to “fit in”. They discuss what culturally intelligent leadership looks like in practice: being deliberate about communication, understanding different norms around hierarchy and feedback, and adapting without asking others to assimilate. Listeners leave with clearer language for understanding cultural differences at work, plus practical prompts for developing CQ—starting with clarifying your “why”, expanding your knowledge sources, and using self-reflection to turn intentions into inclusive impact. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Cultural intelligence framework holds leaders accountable, guides actions. - 08:31 — Understanding cultural intelligence, impact of effective communication. - 14:09 — Resilience as superpower to overcome systemic challenges. - 19:25 — Leaders must use available resources for growth. - 24:57 — Grateful for London's white-centric culture and opportunities. - 27:06 — Understanding privilege and cultural attitudes towards language. - 34:26 — Impact of colonialism: English dominance in education. - 41:44 — Individual perspective shapes cultural interpretations of assertiveness. - 42:39 — Questioning dominance in confidence and culture norms. - 48:23 — Gandhi's nonviolent movement led to India's partition. - 53:17 — Memorializing Kiev and Cyprus conflicts through stories. - 59:14 — Leaders find purpose, inspire others to contribute. ## Key takeaways - The critical importance of acknowledging and preserving cultural identities to prevent racial and cultural erasure. - Initiating vital conversations with children about racial presumptions from a young age to foster early awareness and sensitivity. - Reflective practices that help individuals identify their personal motivations and past experiences of discrimination to drive meaningful change. - Strategies for leveraging cultural intelligence to communicate effectively and achieve desired outcomes in multicultural interactions. - The detrimental effects of dehumanization and labelling in public discourses and how cultural understanding can bridge divides. - The role of historical colonial impacts on current cultural dynamics and languages, with a focus on India's adaptation in global contexts. - Practical steps for leaders to incorporate cultural intelligence actively into their leadership styles to nurture inclusive environments. ## FAQs ### What is Cultural Intelligence (CQ)? Cultural Intelligence, or CQ, is an individual’s capability to function effectively in situations characterized by cultural diversity. It includes four key components: CQ Drive (motivational), CQ Knowledge (cognitive), CQ Strategy (meta-cognitive), and CQ Action (behavioral). ### Why is understanding different cultures important in business? In today’s global economy, understanding various cultures is crucial for effective communication, negotiation, and leadership across borders. It helps in navigating multicultural environments, prevents misunderstandings, and enhances team cohesion and productivity. ### How does cultural education impact economic growth? Cultural education broadens understanding and fosters an inclusive workforce capable of innovative thinking and problem-solving. For countries like India, where there's a diverse cultural tapestry, it contributes to its rising influence in the global market, particularly in industries like technology. ### How can leaders develop Cultural Intelligence? Leaders can develop CQ by actively seeking knowledge about different cultures, participating in cross-cultural training programs, and being open to feedback from individuals from diverse backgrounds. This also involves challenging their own cultural assumptions and adapting their leadership styles to be more inclusive. ### How are personal experiences of discrimination relevant to activism in diversity? Personal experiences with discrimination often serve as a powerful incentive for individuals to drive change. These experiences make the issues more tangible and urgent, fuelling activism aimed at creating environments where equity and inclusion are priorities. ### What is the significance of challenging leaders on inclusivity? Leaders hold influential positions that shape organisational culture and policies. By challenging them to be more inclusive, it ensures that diversity and inclusion are not just tick-box exercises but are integrated into the core operational and strategic frameworks of the organisation. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 123 with the title Cultural Intelligence for Harnessing Diversity. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Ritika Wadhwa. Ritika is an ethnic minority, immigrant, female founder, and CEO of Prabhaav Global that specialises in using the transformative power of cultural intelligence for impactful leadership. When I asked Ritika to describe superpower, she said resilience. Hello, Ritika. Welcome to the show. Oh, thank you, Joanne. Ritika Wadhwa: The honor is absolutely, completely, and 100% mine. You know what a big fangirl I am of Joanne Lockwood. Oh, going bashful now and so. Joanne Lockwood: We met each other recently at a Professional Speaking Association meeting, but also we caught up at the Culture Pioneer Awards, didn't we, with, HR's own Sift. That was a a great evening, wasn't it? It was. Ritika Wadhwa: It was. I think I've well, I've I've been fangirling you from afar for a while. And so it was I've actually seen you in a lot of forums, but obviously you only noticed me at the PSA first and then at the HR zone. So I think our paths have crossed several times before that. And so meeting you in person was brilliant, but also being asked to be featured as a guest on your podcast is an absolute honor. Thank you. Thank you. Joanne Lockwood: Pratika then, tell me, cultural intelligence, how do we harness it for diversity? Tell us more about CQ. Ritika Wadhwa: Oh, right. So where do I start? Tell us more about CQ. CQ CQ is cultural intelligence. Cultural intelligence technically is defined as the ability to work with people that are different from us. It is a capability that we can all build and scale very much like emotional intelligence, and it helps us to work in multicultural situations, to work with people that are different from us, to work and navigate situations that might not be familiar to us. There's IQ, there's EQ, and there's CQ. CQ is relatively the new baby on the block as we call it because it's been around 20 plus years, but only in the last 12 or so years has there been a practical application to cultural intelligence. Cultural intelligence, very much like emotional intelligence, is formed of 4 capabilities. The first capability is the CQ drive, the why, there's CQ knowledge, the what, CQ strategy, the how, and CQ action when you actually do something about all those capabilities. And so what cultural intelligence does is hold people accountable, hold leaders accountable for behavior change. Because I've seen a lot of frameworks, very, very interested in the field of diversity, equity, inclusion, personally and professionally. And what I was most interested in is to hold people, leaders more specifically, accountable from moving from intent to impact. And this is the framework that I thought absolutely does that because a lot of training courses out there and a lot of forms of intelligence, whether that's cultural competency, cultural awareness, whatever you wanna call it, sit in the CQ knowledge box where you get the information, but you're not really told what to do with it. For example, unconscious bias training increases discrimination, yeah, because we're not taught what to do with that unconscious bias. And this is why a cultural intelligence framework means you've got the CQ knowledge, but you're being taught on how to use that knowledge to plan for those interactions that are different, to be aware of how that interaction is going, and to self reflect on what about it worked or didn't. And we know that the best learning comes from that self reflection, comes from sitting with the discomfort and asking yourself what went right or wrong. And last but not the least, I was really, really interested in exploring a body of thought, a framework, a theory, a research based topic on how can people show up? How can leaders act in a way that is adaptable? Act in a way that is inclusive? Act in a way that they are able to work with those differences in in how they show up as an ally, in how they show up as a leader, in how they show up as an inclusive leader. So really that in a nutshell is cultural intelligence. Joanne Lockwood: In a nutshell. In a nutshell. Yeah. I I I studied CQ a fair bit, and I always think that, as you say, knowledge you can be have knowledge. You can have the have the desire to do well. But unless you've got that strategy, you're likely to be armed and dangerous. Little knowledge can obviously take you to the wrong direction. When you talk about intent and impact, I was thinking if we're not careful, our positive intent can actually be problematic and cause negative impact. So that's where we gotta really focus on the strategizing how we contextualize what we've learned, isn't it? Exactly that. And this is why the organization's Ritika Wadhwa: name is Prabhaav Global, and Prabhaav means Impact in Hindi. So as much as it's a bit of a tongue twister, when I started when I started thinking about the name for my organization, and I came up with the word Prabhaav, a lot of people with the right intention said, why don't you call it what it is on the tin? And I said, call it what it is on the tin for who? For me, Prabhav impact is what speaks to me in my heart. And that's what I'm really, really interested in. That impact. Whether the intent is positive or negative, we can't see it. What we feel is the impact of those words and actions that turn the intent into impact. And so that's what I'm interested in, how to use a theory, a framework that is foolproof to convert that intent into positive impact. When Joanne Lockwood: I talk to people, one of the biggest things, you know, the the barriers to inclusion is the fear of getting it wrong. People are so worried. We, you know, we live in this culture at the moment, a blame culture. We live in a culture where of wokeness and antiwokeness and political divide and people pushing back and people having their privilege challenged. And people get really scared about saying or doing the wrong thing for fear of being called out on the internet or getting in the newspaper for the wrong reasons. So how can CQ, cultural intelligence, help us navigate through that fear? Ritika Wadhwa: I love that question. I want to answer that question with Martin Luther King's quote. People fail to get along because they fear each other. They fear each other because they don't know each other. They don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other. So in a nutshell, it's all about the communication. And this is where CQ comes in. It sits at the heart. Cultural intelligence is about communicating, but communicating for impact. So what I mean by that is how do we understand what outcomes we want to drive from any interaction? And getting to the core of that, what outcome do I want from my interaction with Joanne when I see you for the first time or when I'm in a meeting with you. Now what knowledge do I have about Joanne? Okay. And how am I going to use this knowledge to get the outcome that I want? And so with that, what we mean is people fear each other because they don't know each other, and this fear sits at that if if we can we can level up and increase the knowledge about the communities, the groups, those parts of society that we're not familiar with, that we don't know much about. If we can find ways to gain knowledge, whether that's through books, listening to podcasts like yours, being out there, watching movies, having those conversations, getting to know the human behind those biases and assumptions that we might have, will that take away that fear to some extent Jo that not that we are completely confident, but at least we can come from a place of curiosity. And so cultural intelligence can really help us. And for this, to answer your question a little more long winded way, I personally think that the why is really important. When people say that we fear and there's Joanne woke, there's this, there's that, what is it that we want from our lives and from society and from our employees and those around us? When our why is clear, it's easier for us to navigate that path and to be more confident in those interactions than just come come from a place of fear. Yeah. I think I think Joanne Lockwood: you're Jo right. You talked about getting to know people. I think what happens sometimes in these debates that become unproductive, toxic, whichever word you like to use, we start to dehumanize, and we can see a history of dehumanization language throughout the generations and centuries where the out group becomes labeled and stereotyped with a with with some sort of dehumanized view. I'm good. I'm normal, but they're not. They're bad. They're different. And then you you you sort of associate this word. I mean, we see a lot of this with, using Donald Trump as an example, the way he refers to his, his challenges for the presidency. You know, the dehumanizing always puts a negative label in front of their name, things like this to try and turn people's heads or minds against somebody with that repetitive. I think we yeah. So we we've seen that in many wars. We're seeing it happen in the Middle East at the moment where two sides dehumanize each other. Once something is not human, it's far easier to discriminate or eradicate or exterminate. It re it really is, Ritika Wadhwa: isn't it? It really is because if you don't have names, you don't have faces, it's it's a certain set of society or certain religion or certain way of doing things that I'm not familiar with. That's got to be wrong because this is not this is not how I do things. I mean religion goes a big way. One of the biggest con biggest backlash I get is whenever I talk about religion. It is it it divides it feels to me that it divides more than any other facet of humanity. And so how do we navigate that? How do we continuously work within that system to ensure that individuals are treated as humans, that groups are treated as humans. And I I personally think that the more I work within this field, the more I come across people that are culturally intelligent. I see them being able to do this effectively. But you've got to you've got to open up to the idea before you, go down that road. So the the first step on this journey is is Joanne Lockwood: as you say, was CQ Drive. And I I think you're quite right. You said before that even comes your why, doesn't it? Because the why gives you the drive. So what gave you your why to to embark on this, journey of of enlightenment, if you like? Enlightenment. Wow. Epiphany more like. Ritika Wadhwa: Yes. Absolutely. Only took me 25 years to get to where I am. Right? When I say 25 years, 25 years of working life, you know, a lot longer before that. But what it really was is I want to I want to share that actually from the time that I was born, when I was born in India, up until now, even today, it very much feels like systems were put in place for someone like me to have a very different experience. And so that right there is the why. Because from the time that I was born as a woman, as a girl in a patriarchal India, 40 something years ago to then moving to the UK and to Canada where it became that I'm a woman of color, that I'm an immigrant, that I have a funny accent, that I'm fresh off the board. So many other facets of me that really was not something that was chosen. It wasn't I didn't choose to be born as a woman. I didn't choose to be born in the color of skin that I was born in. And I'm very proud of that. Don't get me wrong. But then systems were put in place for someone like me to have a very different experience of life and what I was capable of achieving. Right? And so I've had to fight that system, and this is why resilience is the superpower. I've had to fight that system from the day I was born until today. As an entrepreneur, I'm still fighting that system. And so that's the why, because I want to leave a legacy. I want to leave a legacy for those that look like me, for those that were that have no choices in the way they were born, where they were born, how they were born, all of those facets to to where we don't have a choice. I don't want someone like me to waste, and I say waste, 20 something years of their life before they get to the full circle moment of, I'm really proud of who I am and I can achieve whatever I want to achieve. It's taken me 25 years of working in boardrooms where I made myself small. I made myself fit in. I made myself try to please powers that wouldn't be pleased no matter what I did to now get to the point where it's like, no. You know what? Try and take away any part of my identity now. Try and question any part of my identity now. No. So it's that part of that legacy for those coming behind me, including my own 2 daughters. But equally, how that makes me feel, that why is very much I haven't felt better about myself and the skin I'm in than now, which is when I've embraced that totality of my living experience and who I am. So the why really is that. And I'm driven into boardrooms and into conversations with senior leaders and challenge them to say, how are you making your organization, your team, the space you occupy inclusive for people like my like me, and that's why. Joanne Lockwood: This is very reasonable. I think that's a great motivation to change the world one person at a time or one mind at a time or one Conversation at a time. One conversation. Yeah. Whatever. I think people often get frustrated that they can't fix the world now. And it's that's that's the that's the problem. Sometimes you feel like you Jo you're taking one step forward and not just 2 backwards, but sometimes 5 backwards. Because for every time you you make a difference, you see another example of somewhere you need to make a difference somewhere else, and it's just watching the TV and turning the news on, listening to Question Time on the BBC, whatever it may be, and you see examples day in, day out where people should know better and should to do better don't for whatever reason. A political end, I guess, without getting too political here. So how can we try and educate leaders in that way then? Because, you know, you gotta start you say you start with the why, but the first bit is the the drive, and then we're gonna get the knowledge. How do people acquire that knowledge? When I work with Ritika Wadhwa: leaders, in fact, the workshop that I had even this morning, is very much about I know my why, but I'm gonna have to unpack their why. Because everyone's why is different. And unless you're not unless you're clear about your why. Now let's be honest here. If your why if you're getting to work, and I'm talking about call lots of corporates that I've worked in, you're coming to work because ROI is important to you, that profitability is important, cost savings is important. Sure. Innovation is important. Sure. That's all fine. Let's admit it. Let's admit to that, that that's your why Or that you want to you you've had an experience of someone you you love dearly that has been marginalized. Someone you know, your own experience of being marginalized. Whatever the reason, and you want to make the world a better place. If you are not clear about your why, you're not gonna be able to persist on this journey that we call diversity and inclusion. So let's assume for the sake of this conversation that a leaders, a CEO of a big multinational company, their why is ROI. Okay? Their why is financial stability, profitability. Now you've got to ask yourself, are you going to be able to get to that space without diversity and inclusion? And by that, we mean diversity because it brings the unique perspective that you need for innovation, and inclusion Jo that those that are there with unique perspectives are able to speak up and give those unique perspectives. Because if you're not gonna do it, your competition is gonna do it. So the business case for doing this, and I'm talking about leaders that are either heart led or head led. The business case for those head led leaders is a no brainer right now. CQ is a critical capability for navigating today's increasingly global and diverse business environment. It's so important that we made it one of our core behaviors at PwC. This is by the CEO of PwC a while ago. Right? So that's the why. Now how do we go about gaining knowledge? That's the easier part. You've understood your why. Which cultures do you interact with the most? And by culture, I mean gender, I mean nationality, I mean sexuality, I mean ability, I mean religion. Everything that makes us who we are. Which cultures do you interact with the most as a leader? That onus is now up to you to get the knowledge about how those cultures are similar or different from the way you are. There's books to read. There's podcasts to listen to. There's conversations to be had. There's innumerable resources out there. There is no excuse for a leader now to say I don't know about this because we've got the we've got the Internet. You've got social media. Who are you following on your social media feed that is vastly different from your lived experience? So how are you constantly learning and gaining that knowledge? How are you understanding about the cultural values of the team members that you work with on a regular basis? I've had so many instances from leaders that will say, but you know what? I've said to my team, challenge me at any time. I love feedback. That's the only way I can get better. And look, I'm opening up myself vulnerably to feedback at any point. I'm saying, have you understood who's reporting into you? Maybe they come from cultures that are high power distance or low power low high power distance. Hierarchy means a lot to them, which means they are not okay to challenge their boss or someone that's senior to them in the organization. So by saying that you want to be challenged, doesn't mean you're really opening the platform for constructive dialogue. And so that CQ knowledge box sits in really getting under the skin of what you think is acceptable and familiar to you, and it might not be for others, but it isn't wrong. So how are you navigating that? Joanne Lockwood: I think that's important what you say there. It's leaders who who say that. It's the same to me as my door is always open. Mhmm. It's a very passive form of communication saying, it's your problem to come and talk to me. As a leader, it's our job to to lean in, to reach out, to be active and deliberate about our allyship and our our learning. And you say, if you think about power dynamics, not everybody is comfortable. Not everybody wants to say, I wanna knock on your door and disturb you. It's only a little thing. I say, just that little and often, how's it going today? Is everything working alright? Was was any blockers? Anything I can help with? How was the weekend? And just those conversations become used to having conversation with people. I don't expect everyone to come to you. And you might be listening to this saying, well, I've got 30, 40, 50 people reporting to me. I can't do that with everybody. Well, you can. You can if you want to. Maybe not every day, but just gently cycle around, speak to people, talk to people, get the lowdown. If you hear someone's having some struggles, make a special effort. But, yeah, just to sit back and say, my door's always open. Come find me. It's like I agree. I agree. I think, you know, even Ritika Wadhwa: if you look I mean, that concept of leadership. I'm a big fan of servant leadership. So I I really believe that a title doesn't make a leader. It is about what what the leader does with the title. So it's how do you gain not gain. How do you earn the respect of those that report into you? How do you earn their confidence? How do you earn their trust? And that to me is leadership because that's what will get the best out of people that work with you and for you. The other interesting element to this is that old school thought of leadership and the oh, you know, the door is open, speak up, give me feedback, give me challenge. It all comes from a great place of intention for sure. But what's the next generation looking for? The next gen the the the the millennial, those coming behind us, their understanding of leadership and how they want to be led is vastly different from the way the world has been working so far. So how are leaders adapting to that? And that's again where the heart of cultural intelligence sits. You've you spent as you say, you spent the Joanne Lockwood: early part of your life in India. I'm just curious, and this is this is curiosity. How how different was it for you to start again effectively with with in a new culture, a different majority faith, a different majority language, even the food. It's it's the television. Everything is different. And how does that feel to be someone embarking on this second part of their life or the next part of their journey to is it exciting, or is it daunting? What a great question, Joanne. And, you Ritika Wadhwa: know, I've thought about it in so many ways over so many years now. And I'm able to recalibrate it so differently from if you'd asked me this question even 10 years ago. Okay? And I say this because now that I've done this work and within I've spoken to so many people within this field of diversity, equity, inclusion. I have some amazing friends, you know, my tribe, and really gone deep into what all of this means. When I first arrived in the UK, as much as it was daunting and it was actually not great, and that's a polite word to to use, but I was grateful. At that point, even when people mocked my accent or the fact that when I arrived into this country, I had significant work experience in the in in India. I had a university degree. I had a postgraduate degree, but I didn't get a job in this country. I just didn't. They just they would refuse to even look at my CV 25 something years ago. And I had to start after months of looking at 100 of rejection letters. I started from scratch as a sales executive, really. Anyone that could have me would have me. And I was grateful. That is the result of post colonization, that anything white. The fact that I am in London, the fact that I can actually visit Buckingham Palace anytime I wanted, It was so ingrained in us that everything white is so good that just to be part, just to get a job and work with white people, I felt grateful. It was those years were almost, wow. I've got white friends, and I can go spend time with them and, you know, send photographs to my family in India about these white friends I have. And I'm working at bosses who are white, and I'm going to university with white people, and my professor's white. And now I'm really, like, I'm in this culture where Christmas is celebrated. And Buckingham Palace on the you know, and Oxford is down the road and Cambridge is down the road. All these words and notions that we grew up with in India, Where we were taught to be grateful to a great extent, because the British came and built the railways. Okay? And so when you unpack that part or what does that all of that mean, as hard as it was, I was terribly grateful. And it was hard. It was hard. Absolutely everything that you've said. The language as much as it's English, it's still different. And, of course, I was asked more than anyone else, oh, your English is really good. The number of times that people said, wow. Do you have TVs in India? Wow. Your English is really good considering I was taught the Queen's English in a Catholic school by priests and nuns. It is a it is a dichotomy of sorts, really. And and so those initial years were really hard because the weather was awful compared to India. Right? It gets dark at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. What the hell is that? I thought they're a couple a couple a part what? Apoll acropolis? No. Go on. Help me here, Joanne. When the world is ending, what's the word for that? Apocalyp apocalypse. That's it. Thank you. Let's hope Joanne Lockwood: it's not let's hope it doesn't happen. The Rockets Europe. I was like, oh my Ritika Wadhwa: god. No one ever told me. That's what happened here. And so and, obviously, you know, having no friends, no family, it was really, really hard. But I was grateful, and so I got through it. And this is a different season now. It so I I I'm just trying to Joanne Lockwood: fathom, but it feels I mean, it's bad not going on holiday to a country that you've not been to before, trying to drive on a different side of the road, trying to and as Joanne English speaker native there's an expectation that the whole world speaks English and you go to a part of a country I remember I think I was in somewhere in Spain where off off of the main track you go into a shop and horrified how dare you not speak English. So you kind of get it's that privilege you're born with though, isn't it? You're you're brought up in a world where of the majority being white, being English speaking, having a certain status and wealth, you you you do tend to breathe that oxygen where you think everybody has the same. And that's where some of the CQ, I guess, comes in where we're have to recognize some of the lived experience and the fact that they don't have the same experience as you as you as you and that their their attitudes social attitudes are different. Maybe there's an imposter syndrome. Maybe there's a limiting belief in there as well. Or as you said, there's a kind of aspiration to be white. Yeah. It's it's it's really interesting to hear that. Yeah. I never I never imagined that white people would be held in such high esteem in India after the colonial years of of what we did to the country as a as a as a British colony. You know? Yeah. Ritika Wadhwa: It's such it's but what's it's the it's what you're fed, isn't it? It's what you're fed even after it's it's the it's the stories. I mean, obviously, I've gone into a much deeper dive into what all of that meant, the British to be in India. And we did learn. Now that I'm here, I I I realize and understand that actually we learned more about the British Raj in India than those living here ever learned. So we know what happened with the partition. Obviously, we know what the Jallianwala Bagh massacre meant. That was part of our history books. We learned about all that. Yes. They did build the railways, but what happened with the famine, what happened with the stolen jewels and all the textiles and, you know, all of that? So we learned about that in school. And then it's been a journey as part of my work, really, to dig deeper into what that really meant. And having said that, so that was that was an interesting in between period in the 19 seventies, 19 eighties, 19 nineties, those 30, 40 years, just under the shadow of post colonial India. Right? Now if I look at India, if I go when I go back now and I talk about you talk to those that are my age or younger than me, it's a very different narrative. Because India, economically, is doing better than the UK right now. So considering we've had 75 years of independence, so it's really a 75 year old country in a sense. And, and and, you know, it's doing better economically. And so a lot of my body of work that I'm doing right now is focused on working with organizations that have a huge Indian employee base or offices in India. And this isn't about training Indians to work with the western world. I'm taking the onus to actually train the western world on how to work with India. Because guess what? You need it now more than they need it. And I by you, I mean, the western world. Yeah. US, Canada, Australia, all of these countries need to understand the culture of countries like India, like China, like Brazil, those countries that are overtaking, that are not buying, you know, oil in dollars. India is not point buying oil in dollars right now. So what does that really mean? Do you need them more or do they need you? I think history has turned its head. Things have turned around completely. And so a lot of my work sits around understanding those Indian cultural values and how can you make the most of your employees there rather than teaching them how to order food in a British pub. Things have changed. Yeah. I mean, it it Joanne Lockwood: it's it's a real shift, isn't it, in in the power base? Because the western world wanted to use cheap labor, cheap resources, less controls, less health and safety, more less this worry about the environment. Let's push all our problems out somewhere else. And the side effect of that was, yes, we probably didn't do great by the people, but we've actually created industries and knowledge and expertise that the Western world no longer has. We can't manufacture. We can't develop. We we don't have the tech skills that you have in India and in China or the rapid resources you have to be able to pull stuff together with people and the growth that you have over there is is phenomenal. And, you know, I think I'm not sure exactly where where the rankings are, but China and India, the highest populations in the world, more people in those 2 countries in most of the world. I mean, it's yeah. So India is the biggest democracy, Ritika Wadhwa: the most populated with the average age being 23, and and just rapidly rapidly developing in every way. Yeah. Yeah. You Joanne see where the where the where the Joanne Lockwood: power base is gonna be in 2021 and onwards, if not before. So, yeah, it's a as a as a Western world person, I guess I need to be thinking about where the future is. I mean, fortunately, I'm probably too old to worry about it, but if you're if you're coming out of school now, then sure is anything that in New York and China are gonna be instrumental in in the world economics in the When coming out of the future? Organizations, Ritika Wadhwa: big I'm working with a lot of multinational law firms, insurance firms, facilities management firm, name it. All these international firms that are looking to expand and have already expanded in places like Dubai and Bombay, you know, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, all these places. Literally, those are the organizations I'm working with because they are coming to me and going, tell us. Tell us how we can improve our knowledge. How can we use strategy? How can we. The drive is already there. It's a no brainer for them. They'll if you don't Jo I don't have to work on that, but I'm helping them to work and develop the rest of the capabilities. That is it's almost as if, literally, if you don't harness that diversity, if you don't harness that understanding and that knowledge, forget thriving, you won't even survive in 5 years' time. I'm not saying 20 years. I'm saying 5 years' time. If you're not harnessing that diversity, if you're not understanding how to work better with the east, if you're not understanding what your competitive edge is, and this is one of them, then then really, that's what they're worried about. And that's why they come and either come to me and I and, you Joanne organizations like myself to do this work. Is is English gonna be the dominant Joanne Lockwood: language? People from the Indian subcontinent, are they gonna be happy communicating in English, or will we see a shift in western world peoples learn to speak different languages? Joanne, I can only speak Ritika Wadhwa: for India Joanne it breaks my heart. Really, it does. Because that colonialism has left such a deep impact. And I say I speak only for India, but I've had this conversation with lots of people from countries that were colonized. And those marks of anything English, when I go back to India now, a lot of my friends only speak to their children in English. All the education system worth anything is in English because of that colonialism to go if you don't learn English, if you don't understand English, if you're not ahead in English, we won't get ahead in life. Whereas if I go to countries like Greece and Spain and Italy where they're not they're not shy about their language. They're not embarrassed. All their education system is in the primary home country language. So it is, I mean, in Greece, it's Greek, and in Spain, it's Spanish. You know? So there's that aspect of that. But equally, the other aspect about India, specifically, that I can speak with is that it's so diverse even internally. We've got 26 something states, and every state has its own language. But the only way to bind the country continues to remain to be English. So Hindi is the national language, but a lot of the north is Hindi, and a lot of the south still speaks in English. They have 99% literacy late rate in some states, and it's all English education. So really, in that sense, literally, I don't you talk to the rickshaw drivers, you talk to the vegetable vendors on the street, you talk to everybody speaks in English. Everybody speaks in English. And this is why I'm re you know, my my I tried to teach Hindi to my girls, and they learned it. They knew and they speak spoke Hindi fluently until the age of 4, 5 until they started school. And then they go to India and they talk to Indians and everyone's speaking to them in English. So the effort is just gone. And Jo, yeah, long winded answer to the fact that it is sad, but I do think that English is there to stay as far as India goes. It also means if you are trying to communicate with Joanne Lockwood: people in other countries, you mentioned Greece and Spain, other places, that, isn't it? The second the the official second language or the official third language of Joanne countries, isn't it? The second the the official second language or the official third language of many countries. It's unusual not to find English spoken in many countries these days. But also that's also why India is Ritika Wadhwa: on such a rise because unlike a lot of other nations, India's ability to grasp in language Joanne English being its primary Joanne language, but also Indians will generally keep their head down, work hard, get on with it. It's a combination of all of these factors, which is also why if you look at Silicon Valley, most of the CEOs are Indian origin. So so you mentioned Joanne Lockwood: that India is it do you say 26 states, you said? Is it 26? Yeah. And each one of those, it has its own culture. And as you say, sometimes in in terms of different languages and different and it's run sort of semi autonomously within the within the overall sort of state. That means that I, as a person who wants to maybe do business in India, is not just doing business in India. It's doing business in a city or this city, and that's it. The culture is gonna be different. So the CQ knowledge I need is gonna is gonna be different amongst different different parts. So I'm not just learning about India. Whereas in the UK, you tend to learn about the UK, and, yes, we have a north and a south and Scotland and Wales, but we're not vastly different. But what you're saying implies to me that there is a huge difference culturally. Correct. So, Ritika Wadhwa: so just to correct, it's 28 states. Technically, now that we've gone back to so 28 states in India and absolutely every state has its own language, its food, its culture, etcetera. So interestingly, this is the this is the conversation that I have with a lot of leaders as I as we work through cultural intelligence. What it is is that it's impossible. Let, you know, let okay. Take India for an example, 28 states, whatever different languages. But look at the world around us and how many languages are spoken and how many cultures there are when you look at religion, ethnicity, nationality, all of that. It's impossible for us to know everything about everything. What cultural intelligence does is it helps us become flexible and adaptable to work with any difference. So I'm I might know generically that, okay, India is a high power distance culture or that this is the language spoken there. This is the food that's generally eaten. I know generally, and that onus is up to me to get that general knowledge. Plenty out there to get that. I've gotten the general knowledge. When I actually go and work with people in that country, what I'm doing is I'm using the strategic part of the capability to Jo, okay. So I know that in India, generally, people are a hierarchical. That the culture works in a way that there's respect for titles, there's some formality there, etcetera. However, I'm sat in this meeting with an Indian person in Mumbai, but they seem to be low power distance. They don't really care about hierarchy. They don't really care about titles. I'm gonna flex and adapt the way I am conducting this meeting to get the outcome that I want, and that is cultural intelligence. So if you don't have the knowledge, you will go in through your own you will go in using your own cultural lens. So having the knowledge is really, really important. It's not a it's it's really important to gain as much knowledge as we can about the cultures that we work with. However, that's where if knowledge is all we have, as you've pointed out in the start, if knowledge is all we have, then that leads to stereotyping. Cultural intelligence holds you accountable to using that knowledge to flex and adapt in the here and now. So as much as I've got the knowledge, I'm sitting with someone that does not subscribe to any of the knowledge that I have about this culture. So how am I gonna flex and adapt? And this is the beauty of the framework where, really, it is about how we work with any difference, and it's impossible for us to know everything about everything. Yeah. You can't have Joanne Lockwood: a a check sheet or a manual for every individual person. You have to as you said right at the beginning, we talked about emotion intelligence, EQ and CQ. You blend them together. And when you're meeting people who are unknown for for the first time, using a certain set of skills, a blend between those 2, you can start to build relationships. But if you go in there with assumptions, go in there without without paving the way, if you like, for the that conversation. You're gonna get it wrong. So what what are the kind of typical mistakes that western northern hemisphere, western world people tend to make in terms of the assumptions or when working with people in maybe in the the southern hemisphere continent? Lots. Ritika Wadhwa: Lots. But that's again down to the individual in in in what in the way they have been brought up, in what knowledge they've been accruing, and through which sources. So it's very, again, very individual, really. So I'm not sure if I would paint it with a wide brush of west western way. But generally generally, I would say, you know, an example of that general way is that somebody shared with me, a white Joanne, who shared with me recently that he's a senior trainer within an organization. And he was sent to Malaysia with the specific purpose of training Malaysian women to become more assertive. I mean, where do you start from that? Right? It's just what does assertiveness mean? In what context? How is it expressed? And why is why is it that if it's expressed differently, that's not okay and that they you need training. Why is it that women generally get training and confidence? Why? I mean, what is the benchmark of how how how confidence is expressed? Who decides? So any everything, every juncture, it's not just east and west. What I'm thinking, everything that is the dominant way of doing things isn't necessarily the only way of doing thing. And I think, especially, those coming from the west when they work with those in the east have to have to question every assumption that be do I think this person is not being assertive because my version of assertiveness looks different? Do I think that this person is not challenging me enough because my as as my view of what challenging means is different? Do I feel like this person is being disrespectful because my view of respect is different? Do I feel like somebody else has recently mentioned to me that I read that they got really irate with loud people, and they considered that culture really loud and found it difficult to work? Loud by who standards? So all of those assumptions, when you have privilege, and I mean everybody has some privilege, When you are privileged in certain facets, those are the facets that you feel are the dominant features, and that's not really how the rest of the world operates. So you've got to question every facet of the privilege that makes it a dominant feature. Does that make sense? Mhmm. So Joanne Lockwood: then what we're trying to do is assimilate people to behave as I behave. That's what we're saying. You know, you shouldn't meet my model of assertiveness. You don't meet my model of the way you speak your language, the way you interact with me. I want you to be make it easier for me to deal with you that I'm pushing that back to you, then, aren't I? I'm training you to be a better me. Correct. Not training me to be more receptive to your needs. And, again, that's that's what we talked about, the leadership being passive, not active. How can I reach out in a way that's respectful to you, not expecting you to be respectful to me? And we we I have to be responsible for my change as well, don't I? Absolutely love Ritika Wadhwa: that, Joanne. I don't know anyone who summarized if this whole thing that I've just shared so wonderfully. That's exactly that. And those that do come from dominant groups are so used to the world molding around them that it's hard to step out from that comfort and go, how do we change this? And and and it's hard, but equally you've got to ask yourself, why do I need to change this now? The answers are overwhelmingly that if you don't, then you won't survive, let alone thrive. Someone said, whatever it is that got me here is not enough to keep me here. And so there you go. Yeah. We we're constantly Joanne Lockwood: refining our why, aren't we? Our motivations, what makes happy, what makes us sad. We need to be stretched, not not always. We need to relax occasionally, but we need to feel that we're growing. Because if we're not growing, we are going backwards, and that's that's the challenge, isn't it? And people are coming behind us and around us, organizations, leaders. So we have to keep pace. I think we we we can get complacent. You feel like you got to the top of the hill, but you don't realize there's still another hill that you haven't quite climbed yet. It's probably still in the cloud. You don't even know it's there until you've walked to the bottom of it. Yep. Yep. You mentioned I'm really curious as we're having this conversation. You mentioned about the partition. Mhmm. I know very little about that. As you as you quite rightly said, we very rarely learn about the history of our colonial dependencies, for want of a better way of describing the places we invaded and took all their all their wealth and left them with a with a religion and, and railroad. From my understanding, it's it was done on almost was it religious, basically? Norms where mainly the Muslim population of India were forcibly ejected into Pakistan to be a Muslim state, whereas India remained a Hindu, Sikh state. Was that was that kind of the rough and it was it was a very, very tough time for everybody, forcibly rejected by the end. It's there's no kind of negotiation. It's off you go. Yeah. I mean, one of the, we Ritika Wadhwa: we learned about it a lot at school when I was growing up. But, you know, when you when you're at school, you're, like, memorizing it once or the exam paper, and that's after that. And then you get to a certain point in your life where you look back at your roots and and your foundations and what all of that meant. So someone recommended a podcast called Empire. And I have studied that. Oh my god. That's one of the best versions of really neutrally explaining what happened with the British Raj, and what they did, and why they did, and all those massacres, and all the wars, and the reasons behind that, and what happened at the House of Lords here. You know, all of that goes into the history of it. And and in a nutshell, the way the British work across pretty much all the empires and countries that they colonized was on the policy of divide and rule. So as soon as they saw groups of rebels or groups getting together, getting along, fall forming some sort of sort of a contingent to rebel against that that power. They would divide and then continue to rule. And so the so actually the Hindus and Muslims got along swimmingly well, wonderfully well. They were neighbors. It was all one country. Religion was never an issue. Until, of course, then the the British were almost forced to leave because, you know, Gandhi did the nonviolent moment and all of that part. And as they were leaving, of course, they wanted to leave a hue of destruction behind them. So literally, one person took the map of that was all of India and drew a line across it going through farms and railway tracks and people's properties and all of that and go, this is Pakistan, this is India. And they they created that animosity in the Muslim leaders' minds against the Hindu leaders and vice versa, which then led to this awfulness that was partitioned. Where actually my granddad was born on in in Lahore, the other side, which is Pakistan now. And he was one of them that actually took his belongings or whatever it was, got on the train and got to India and saved his skin and pretty much still got a village there where my granddad and his brothers and all of them just just little bit dishy of Pakistan. You could you could walk across the border. That's how close they settle themselves there. And, and millions dead. And even today even today, it goes on with Kashmir being a big issue around whether that's part of India, whether that's part of Pakistan. You've got the line of control and Hindus and Muslims still don't get along, you know. And all of that still happening 75 years, you know, very much like what I wouldn't compare it completely, but what's going on with Israel and Palestine. And that's part of exactly, we're really sorry what happened in Europe. Here you go. So all of those are parts of that legacy where it's really sad. Yeah. It is. And I and Joanne Lockwood: it's it's it's been quite privileged to ask you that question and hear from my own education because, you know, we I've got the drive, and I want the knowledge. It's it's making sure that we take opportunities when we're meeting people, not just to ask about you as an individual, but also some of your cultural heritage as well Jo I can be better understanding. And hopefully, next time I meet someone who has maybe come from the Indian continent, then maybe I'll have a bit more conversation. Next time I have meet someone from Pakistan, I'll have a bit more empathy with the history of the country, and it's we we gotta take opportunities to be curious, haven't we? And I think that's that's so important to, otherwise, be just living our bubble. It's easier to do that, Ritika Wadhwa: though. You'll be surprised when I when I work with leaders on cultural intelligence, the number of people that are happy the way they are. And that's fine as in what I mean by what I mean by happy the way they are is that they're not that curious. They're not that motivated to get on a train and go to some distant land and eat in the local restaurant there or travel by the local bus. And that's fine, because homogeneous, it's easier to work with people that are just like us. It's easier to be around. You don't have to do the guesswork around what does that mean when they were raising their hand like that or when they were you know, what were the non all of that guess works taken away when you work with people that are just like you. So that sense of curiosity is not inherent in everybody. And the whole part of this work, which I find fascinating, is that you even if you're not curious, you can become curious. So if your CQ drive scores are really low, there are very specific strategies and ways that you can increase that CQ drive and become curious and want to embark on those experiences. Because guess what again? If you don't do it, that that if you don't embark on that, if you don't stay curious, if you don't find out more, where are you gonna end up? Yeah. I suppose I Joanne Lockwood: in my life, I've had the I'm gonna say a privilege. I've had a privilege of working all over the world. When I worked for a bank, I maybe not for huge amounts of time, maybe 2 or 3 weeks at a time. I worked in Zurich, best part of about 18 months on and off. So 3 or 4 weeks here, 3 or 4 weeks there. So I was spending a lot of time in Zurich. And also I've been members of organizations that, have a global reach, global footprint. And I've I've stayed in people's houses, homoasting around the world, all across Europe, all across North America. So I've had the opportunity. I'm now part of a a global association of speakers where I'm not just meeting people who are living in the UK. I'm meeting people who are still living and working and thriving in in their country. And so I actually see people in their home environment, and it's a real privilege to so that that I suppose that's where my it's not even a drive. It's just a normality for me where peep tremendously curious. And I about 5 years ago, I was I spoke at a conference in Kyiv in Ukraine. It was almost 5 5 years ago this month. And I remember walking around the the square in the middle of Kyiv where there were snipers on the rooftops. I can't remember the year. I think it was something like 2014, 2015 where they were shooting and they killed 99 people or something like that, and if you go to I think it's Revolution Square or and there's a there's memorials to these people and and and something you said earlier was quite powerful, powerful, reminded me of this, was in order to humanize that loss. Every little memorial has a photograph, has a story. So when you're walking around there, you know who person a was, person b, because you've got their story in front of you. The the relatives still bring things to that space. And I also remember visiting Cyprus, and on the border between the the the Greek side and the Turkish side, There's a border there, the no man's land, and on the on the Cypriot side that I was at, you could see the photographs of the children that that had been lost disappeared wherever they may be, either killed or kidnapped or or just partitioned and separated. And, again, by having those faces and those stories, humanizes the conflict again. I think, yeah, sometimes it's hard to watch the news, and there's been stories around the Middle East. We're seeing real stories about people who've lost their lives, the devastation of the of the people there. And to see those faces, to hear those stories is the powerful element that keeps us human and means that we've got to do something. So I guess that's kind of my why is to humanize. Yeah. Is to don't allow us to fall into that way where we we can demonize, dehumanize, and and and treat people as as sub or something. And I I guess that's my why. It's It's interesting though Ritika Wadhwa: because, you know, again, if you're if you're completely privileged and you haven't ever felt what it's like to be marginalized, discriminated, bullied, harassed, hurt, or that people you love have been hurt because of just who they are, then it's so hard to to stay curious or want to do something about it. I personally do think very strongly and right or wrong that this work of dehumanizing or this work of activism, you might call it that, or this work of just wanting to make the world a better place Joanne come only when it sits deep in the gut, when it's really, really, really personal to you. And as much as, you know, for example, my girls come across as, you know, they're presumed white. They're 100% presumed white. So the way the doors open up for them, very different for the from my own lived experience. But I make sure that they know that that their mother has not had the same experience that they are having. Of course, the fact that they are in England compared to I was being brought up in India. Patriarchal India at that. Post colonial India at that. That's different. But, you know, even when we are traveling together at the airport, if they, you know, if I'm treated differently, they need to know that. And that's that's what will keep them wanting to fight towards an equitable world because their mother had to fight the system. And unless it becomes personal, I don't think people will have the fire in the belly to be persistent to continue when the going gets tough. Yeah. That that Joanne Lockwood: must be I mean, I was I was gonna say interesting. I mean, interesting is not the right word. I'll explain what I mean. So you have a a, like, a a live real example of being a compare and contrast your lived experience with those of your daughters based on perceived ethnicity? I'd say interesting is a word. I can't think of the word I'm trying to find here, but it must be you're able to observe that firsthand about those differences. And you're obviously happy for your daughters. Mhmm. But all but sad that it came at the expense of their culture, faith, and history. They've always had to have that part of them erased. I'm now acceptable because I'm white kind of thing. Right. And I don't Ritika Wadhwa: allow them to erase that. I don't allow it. I let them know. My my now 6 year old knew from the time that she started school at 4 that she is presumed white. She knows the word. She knows what that means. So we can just do our bit, but the very fact that I'm out and about speaking to to to to humans that are 16 year old and those that are 66 year olds about this exact same topic in the simplest terms to go, mommy, what do you do? And I'm like, I just try to get people to be kind to each other. That's what I do. I just get out there in the world to do that Because and why? Because, you know, they weren't kind to me because the way I look. Would you how do you feel about that? How do you feel about your best friend being treated differently just because they have a darker color skin compared to you? Or look out for the person that is alone in the playground. I mean, that's all we can do. Right? And so that's the part of the legacy, which is which is a live thing that we are constantly working with. You had to give our Joanne Lockwood: listener here a a way to find their why in their drive, how would you suggest that they inwardly reflect to find that why where they don't have it? Ritika Wadhwa: Interesting. So 2 things. On the fly, I'm going to answer that. 2 things. 1 is, think about the time that someone you love was treated unfairly. How does that feel? Really, how did that feel? And now project that to the world around you. How does every person who's marginalized, how do they feel when they've constantly got a glass ceiling in front of them that they're told they're not capable of doing something because they're differently abled or because they are they have a different sexual orientation or because they look different. Whatever it is, you've got to that feeling, you know, deep in your gut. That's the thing that I urge leaders to find. Secondly, whatever it is that gets you up in the morning and doing whatever it is that you do, What is that? What is that? We're all living because not because we're a robot, but because we want to achieve something, you know, when we're all at our deathbed. What did we achieve? We all want to, whether that's providing for our family, whether that's leaving a mark because we made the world a better place, whether that's becoming really rich, like, whatever it is. If you unpack that part, then that's that that will lead to your why and how you can play your part in making the world a better place because ultimately, it all boils down to that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. What a fascinating conversation. How can people get a hold of you and find out more? I'm everywhere. Trust Ritika Wadhwa: me. It's hard not to get hold of me. Yeah. I know on LinkedIn, Instagram, my website, Ritika Wadwha on LinkedIn, Prabhaav Global, the website, Prabhaav Global on all socials. Yeah. It's it's hard not to find someone these days. So hopefully, lots of people come looking for me. But I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, Joanne. It's been absolutely fascinating and I and very unique. I've loved it. Thank you so much. As we bring this Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.