--- title: "From Silence To Advocacy" episode: 122 date: 2024-08-15 guest: "Emma Riley" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/122-from-silence-to-advocacy audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-122/audio.mp3 --- # From Silence To Advocacy Emma Riley joins Joanne Lockwood to recount her experience of serving in the Royal Navy at a time when being gay in the military was illegal, and how that forced silence shaped her sense of belonging and safety. Emma describes the bullying, the pressure of hiding her identity, and the invasive investigation that followed after she confided in a colleague. She explains the humiliation of being searched and interrogated, the forced process of coming out to her family, and the impact of being discharged on her confidence, trust, and long-term wellbeing. The conversation follows Emma’s path from rebuilding her working life after leaving the Navy to taking action. She shares how she pursued legal challenge, ultimately contributing to the European Court of Human Rights ruling that led to the ban on homosexual people serving in the UK military being lifted in 2000. They also discuss why visibility matters, how Pride functions as both celebration and protest, and Emma’s ongoing advocacy through speaking, supporting LGBT veterans, and volunteering in schools to help prevent bullying and expand understanding. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Exploring inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation together. - 05:52 — Enthusiastic volunteer becomes first female class leader. - 08:41 — Struggled to find camaraderie, faced bullying. - 12:21 — Struggling with bullying, stress, and coming out. - 14:06 — Passionate determination leads to intense interrogation. - 18:48 — Uncertain feelings about being outed as gay. - 22:18 — Feeling scared about leaving Navy and coming out. - 26:30 — Transition from military to IT analyst role. - 28:48 — Overcoming adversity, building a successful career. - 30:49 — CEO recognises value of resilience in employees. - 35:57 — Royal Navy loses tapes, leading to change. - 39:49 — Dealt with trust issues through counselling, changed. - 44:12 — Inspiring impact of talks and leadership in singing. - 47:01 — Embrace diversity, spread empathy and understanding. - 51:15 — Veteran aims to share experiences for awareness. - 53:53 — Rishi Sunak and Ben Wallace's heartfelt apologies. - 56:02 — Joanne Lockwood promises to return with more. ## Key takeaways - The invasive search of personal belongings by authorities as a method to probe into one's sexual orientation. - The psychological impact of being outed and the subsequent social isolation experienced within the military environment. - Pressures faced by individuals to conform to traditional norms and the systemic lack of support for LGBTQ+ members in the military. - The transformation of Pride from a mere celebration to a powerful form of protest and safe space for the LGBTQ+ community. - The importance of genuine apologies from government bodies and how they influence the healing process and recognition of past injustices. - Personal battles led through legal avenues to challenge discriminatory practices and successfully amend laws, allowing for inclusivity within the military. - The broader implications of visibility, resilience, and the role of individuals in driving societal change towards a more inclusive setting. ## FAQs ### What challenges did Emma Riley face in the Royal Navy due to her sexuality? Emma Riley dealt with significant challenges including bullying, intense scrutiny, and discrimination because of her sexuality, particularly during a time when it was illegal to be openly gay in the military. She was subjected to distressing interrogations about her personal life and eventually discharged from the Navy. ### How did Emma cope with the aftereffects of her military discharge? After her discharge, Emma struggled with her identity and faced difficulties in her career and personal relationships. She worked through various temporary roles before finding stability in IT and program governance, eventually using her experiences as a platform to advocate for change and support others. ### What legal actions did Emma Riley undertake related to her treatment in the military? Emma took significant legal steps to challenge the discriminatory practices of the military. After an unsuccessful lawsuit against the Ministry of Defense in the UK, she took her case to the European Court of Human Rights, which ruled the ban on homosexuals serving in the military illegal. This led to a change in the law in January 2000. ### How has Emma Riley advocated for LGBTQ+ rights outside the military? Apart from her legal battle, Emma volunteers for Diversity Role Models, a charity aimed at ending LGBTQ+ bullying in schools. She also actively promotes diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace, ensuring safe and supportive environments for everyone to express their authentic selves. ### What has been done to reconcile past injustices Emma and others faced in the military? Emma’s case eventually provoked an apology and laudatory legal changes, albeit delayed. She emphasizes the importance of genuine apologies and systemic reform to address the losses and damages faced by many LGBTQ+ veterans. ### How has Emma used her personal experiences to inspire change and support others? Emma is vocal about her experiences, engaging in speaking engagements and writing contributions that highlight the necessity of visibility and representation of LGBTQ+ individuals. She uses her story to educate, inspire, and advocate for a more inclusive and equitable society. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 122 with the title From Silence to Advocacy. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Emma Riley. Emma is the program governance and operation manager for the Global Privacy Office of RX. And when I asked Emma to describe her superpowers, she says she is articulate enough to speak in high stress situations. Well, let's hope today isn't that stressful. Hello, Emma. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Emma Riley: Thank you. Thank you for speaking with me. Absolute pleasure. We Joanne Lockwood: met recently, I think, at, an event in London, and, you told me some of your story, which we'll get on to in a minute. I'm really fascinated to find out more. So I called this episode from silence to advocacy. Do you wanna give me a bit of history of what where where you've been over the last few years, I guess. Emma Riley: A few years, more like few decades. Short version. Yeah. So I I'm I'm gay, but I didn't really know that until sort of mid I don't know. And end of my teens, really, beginning in my twenties. But I I had a history of being bullied a lot at school, so quite quite silent in that sense and that, I didn't get a lot of chance to sort of speak at that point. I then joined the military, the Royal Navy. And again, silence was very much part of my identity there because at the time that I joined, it was illegal to be gay in the military. So we can talk about what happened to me then, but basically what's happened since then is that I I've, tried to use my voice where I can to do a little bit of good, to try and change what happened to me into something that actually does does something better for the world than actually what happened to me. I hate bullying in all forms, and so I try and challenge that when I can now. I I'm also ex forces. I I Joanne Lockwood: was in the I joined the RAF from school in 1981. That time when Charles Diana got married. It was that July. I joined in October. So and I I remember it was very it was drummed into you right from the very beginning around drugs are bad, being gay is bad. There's a lot of things are bad. Yeah. Or we won't it's going to kill people, by the way, as well. So Yes. Yeah. There's the bad things you could do, but, actually, this is something you should you should be thinking about. And I always remember that that that there's sort of there's always this kind of humor about if you were gonna sit on someone else's bed, you had to make sure you have both feet on the floor, then it was okay. If you lift if you both have if if you well, you had to leave one foot on there. Otherwise, it's good to see. It was one Emma Riley: it was one foot on the ground. You had to keep one foot on the ground, which is fine, I suppose, if you're in the the bottom bunk. But in in in a ship, you've got 3 bunks, 1 on top of the other. So if you're on the top bunk, you've got no hope. But it is definitely Joanne Lockwood: drilled into you in those days that, it was up it was there was no tolerance. And Oh, absolutely. When when I Emma Riley: joined, literally, the first thing you do when you walk through the gates of Raleigh is you go in, you get, sat down in this big sort of group room, and you get handed your contract to sign. And in the contract, it says that, homosexuality is illegal. So when I'm there, 18 years old, I only turned 18 about 3 weeks previous to joining. And I was I thought maybe I might be gay, but I wasn't sure. I'd never had any experience to actually confirm that. And and having spent all my school years being bullied quite a lot, what I wanted was that sort of belonging that you can get as part of the military. I wanted to belong to that tribe. I wanted to serve my country. And so any thought of being gay was then straight off the table. That was not gonna be happening to me. So I, I, it is right in front of you the moment you walk through the door that that is not something you can be. But how did you Joanne Lockwood: cope? Yeah. I mean, you've got some more depth to the story, which you can tell me in a minute. But, so how how did you manage to suppress, repress? Because you you you you mentioned just now that you you you just, well, realize that sense of self later in life. So around the age of 18 is probably just where you start to figure stuff out. Emma Riley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, as I said, it it just I just wanted to serve my country. I wanted to belong. I wanted to be in that camaraderie that you can get in nursery because I'd just experienced that as part of my school life at all. So I just threw myself into the training and I threw myself into the work and I was, I did really well at it. I was part of the last class of women to be trained separately from men in the Rennes. And so I had the choice whether to volunteer for C or not, and I absolutely I was yes. That was an absolute yes for me straight away. So I then did my secondary training as a radio operator, HMS Mercury, and I was picked to be class leader of that class. And that was the first ever mixed sex class that went through HMS Mercury. So going through that as the class leader was a huge step up for an 18 year old who was, you know, very unsure of herself at that point in time. But I mean, what an opportunity. And again, I did, I did well in my schooling as far as that was concerned, and then came back to the IC training and went off to join HMS Cornwall, a Type 22 Batch 3 frigate, as the first group of women to go on board that ship, which was a hugely lucky draft actually. The other people in my class from Mercury went to, I think it was ARC Royal and then Vistimel, so our aircraft carriers, And they didn't go, huge distance, but with the Cornwall, we did our basic operational sea training. And then we were lucky enough to do things like West Indies guard ships, so I got to see the Caribbean and America and so forth. So I was at risk extremely lucky with my draft. Joanne Lockwood: What what year is it when, Wim were finally allowed to to leave the show and get on a on a ship? There? What what year was that? It was basically 1990, which was when I Emma Riley: joined. So I 1990? It it's 1919, 91 they were starting to put 1 on board ship. So Cornwall was were going through a refit as I came to the end of my secondary training. And so beginning of 91, I think it was, that I joined, and, yeah, we were the first ones to to join. It was quite quite a thing with a lot of resistance to having women on board. So there's a lot of kind of overcome. I remember the, Joanne Lockwood: stuff in the press, the, the first sea lord will say this will never work and all this kind of stuff. It was kind of this is and then the ships weren't geared up for different people, were they? They were kind of, you're a float. You just get you just pile on top of each other. Suddenly, uh-oh, women, how to be they don't know how to communicate adequately with the languages. Emma Riley: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you end up either being bullied. You get caught split, turtle, bike, whatever, or you you you kind of become one of the lads. It's sort of a little bit of both of those two things. So you end up having to try and hold your own space if you can. And there's somebody who'd been bullied and and was not particularly confident in their own self. So that was quite a difficult situation to go through. But I absolutely loved being on board ship. It was brilliant. And again, I was good at what I was doing. So I really enjoyed it a lot. Did Joanne Lockwood: you find over time, you were able to get respect? Emma Riley: I'd like to say yes. I unfortunately didn't quite find the sort of camaraderie that I was hoping for when I joined. I I loved what I was doing, but I I did end up in pretty much every place. I would get some kind of bullying. Like, for example, on board the ship, they in West Indies guardship, they put together, like, a a local radio station. So, you know, somebody playing records or or whatever and doing a bit of DJing in between. And they did a pretend, what's it called, request for me, and they said, and here's one for Emma Riley, and it was, Tammy Wynette's Stand by Your Man. Of course, the first line is sometimes it's hard to be a woman and you just think, oh, goodness sake. And then later on when I was at, I think it was H. W. Cochrane. So I was doing guard at a communications center and just outside HMS Cochrane. And and in in the women's block, there's a kinda in outboard. So everybody's, you know, you've got a little peg and you put it in out, whatever, and you have your name next to it. And every day I would come back to find the w from my WRO, as we were called then. So Wren Radio operator, the w would be wiped out every day, every day. Just little microaggressions that you'd call them that. I didn't know what it was at that point. It just made me feel outsider, basically. So there were some good people, but there was also that kind of stuff going on as well. Now all radio operators Joanne Lockwood: are just radio operators. There's there's no distinction now, is there? And Yeah. Emma Riley: Exactly. I mean, in fact, the w officially got dropped not long after I left, I think. I'm not quite sure of the date. Yeah. Well, yeah, I I remember the similar sort of thing Joanne Lockwood: when I was in the air force around, the rafts WAFs, and and it was almost like we have to allow women in, but they don't do anything serious. You know, it was they were great in the war, code breaking, doing all the things that we've ever celebrated for, but actually, oh, actually firing a gun. Not sure about that. Oh, no. Rifle. Yeah. Well, that's this is why Emma Riley: they were calling us, turtles. Because if you're a turtle, because if you're on your back, you fucked. Excuse me. That's the sort of level that they were at at that point in time. I'm sure it's a lot better now, but I'm sure also there are plenty that are just as like that nowadays. Never heard that slang before. Joanne Lockwood: That's that's awful, isn't it? Yeah. It's not nice. So you you you obviously had your your naval career, and you were enjoying it. You were good at what you did. You were presumably getting promoted, seen as excellent in what you were doing. I was doing Emma Riley: doing quite well. But, yeah, fast forward. So that was 1990 I joined. So fast forward to 1993, I I was more sure of my sexuality. Basically, I sort of needed to confirm in my own head what I thought I might be. And so one evening I went out in London on my own with nobody else. Nobody knew I was going to do. And I basically went to a gay bar and got picked up sort of, I kissed a girl and I liked it. So it was like, okay, alright, so let's file that away. I'm still not intending to do anything about it. I'm still, you know, completely no no relationships, nothing like that. I'm still absolutely focused on wanting to serve and stay in the Royal Navy. But later on in 93, my father got really, really ill. So then my father's having quadruple bypass operation. He's having blackouts. I'm trying to support my mum going down to see him going in and out of hospital as that's all happening. And I'd found it harder and harder to deal with the sort of small bullying, but also to just hide who I was in my own self. It becomes incredibly stressful. I is huge. So so by the time I got to the sort of it must have been September 1993, I was in a not a great mental state. So I was working in the communication center in HMS Faz Lane up in Scotland, the submarine base. And one day, myself and the person I was sharing a room with in the block, we just went out for a drink in Helensborough and I we'd we'd had a few drinks. I thought she was my friend. And so I said, I think I might be gay somewhere in the conversation. And she was pretty, supportive at that point. So I had this really kind of euphoric moment where I thought, okay, I've said it out loud and it's going to be okay. I don't have to do anything about it. I've said, I'm not going to do anything. I still want to serve. I understand the rules kind of thing. And so I kind of came out of that evening a little bit on a high, if that makes sense. And then it was, yeah. Next morning, get up, get dressed, get downstairs. You're under arrest. And what she'd done of course is phone up the military police and dubbed me Joanne Lockwood: in for being gay to them. So I had the SOB. I had Yeah. Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I was Yeah. Emma Riley: Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I was terrified. I mean, because you know the rules. So you know if they're going to be able to prove that you are going or that even that they prove enough to themselves that they think you are going. That's it. It's all over. And this is all I've ever wanted to do since the age of about 13, 14. That's what I decided I was going to do with my life. So, yeah, they, they, I got up, I got downstairs and I got dressed. And then I was interviewed for, I don't know how many hours, 3, 4 hours or something. You know, the old tape recorder interviewed 2 SOB officers and a chief friend who was supposedly my support during this interview. And, I mean, I can't remember the questions they asked, but it was just continuous pressure to admit that you were gay. And at one point I just got so upset that they stopped the tape and said, okay, let's have a 15 minute break and you can calm down. And I must have said something to that chief friend in the break that was incriminating in some way because the moment I remember the moment the SIB came back in the room, and they turned on the tape, and the g friend was like, right. During the break, Emmer Riley said this, that, and the other. And you just think that's it. She's not my support. I am completely alone in this. It's just a joke that they have somebody there to supposedly support you. Then none of nobody's interested in that. They just wanna get that conviction. So after that, they take you up to your room to go and search through all your belongings. And Looking for what? What are they looking for? Well, this is the thing. Being gay. Oh, oh, well. You see, you say that in a joking way, but literally, we're standing outside the door, these 2 SAB officers and this gnarkey chief friend. And one of the officers says, so do you have any, electrical equipment? I'm thinking, what? So I to my credit, I said something along the lines of, well, if you mean dildos or vibrators, no, but please do search the rest of the block. I'm sure you'll find some. And thanks for how how on earth is that in any way proof of lesbianism that you might have some electrical equipment, especially in a women's block. I mean, really. But yeah, they, they went through everything and actually evidence wise about the only things they got were, I had a few letters to a pen pal who was outside the Royal Navy, where I had spoken about the fact that I thought I might be gay. So, okay, there's a piece of real evidence. Right? The other two pieces of evidence that I remember are, the suede album cover. And I don't know if you remember the first suede album cover, but it was basically 2 people kissing, a sort of a CPF photo of 2 people kissing. And there was this big debate on at the time about, is it a man and woman, 2 women, 2 men, who, who is this? And so they took that as evidence Now, as it happens, it is actually 2 women, one of whom is in a wheelchair, but nobody really knew that at that point in time. So a Suede album cover was, was evidence. The best one was that they confiscated my Julian Clary mincing to her video. Because again, anybody who watches Julien Clary obviously must be gay. Right? I laugh about this now. At the time, it was so humiliating and so terrifying. And, and actually what they were looking for is not only proof that I was gay, but they were looking for names. Yeah. They wanted other people, didn't they? They they wanted other people. Witch hunt it was such a witch hunt era. And having spoken to other veterans now in the last couple of years, who've gone through similar similar experiences, I mean, I can tell you stories like, there was one poor gentleman I I spoke to who he'd been thrown out because of his sexuality, and they'd found another military person's name and his belongings, gone after this chap and this poor chap that they'd gone after committed suicide. So this man has been thrown out. He's lost his livelihood, his life, his identity, etcetera, etcetera. And now has to not only deal with the shame of that, but also carry the guilt of that other man's death on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's the mental cruelty is astounding. So you'd find out what the motivation was for your Joanne Lockwood: friend to, was there a motivation? Was there a kind of a I I never spoke to her again. Emma Riley: They moved me out of the the room with it, of course, but still in the same block. Of course, I'm still in the same base. I'm still eating in the same mess, though I'm not working in the same place as I'd say. Everybody knows what's going on, and pretty much everybody keeps their distance from you. There were a couple of people who were who were really kind to me that I remember. But most people don't want to be tied with the same brush. They wanna, you know, keep that distance. But no, I never spoke to that person to find out why they did what they did. In fact, as I've done a few bits of speaking, particularly in schools actually, they ask so what would you do if you ever met that person again? How do you feel about them? And I I kind of vacillate between, on the one hand, you know, being generous, they were following the rules. They did what they were supposed to do, which is tell the military police that there was a gay in their midst, terrifying as that may be. And on the other hand, you just wonder what threat was I seriously? Supposedly a national security threat because if if I'm gay, then I can be blackmailed. Well, the only reason you can be blackmailed was because you've got a ruling place. You're not supposed to be gay. And all this nonsense about gay people being able to, in positions of power what's the word? Make a junior do their will, you know, bring them into gay. Well, coerced them. Thank you. That's word I was looking for. Convert. The worst that means they convert. Yeah. Correct. Gay gay world. Right? It's an utter nonsense because when you're looking at the differences between males and females, you know, there's just as much chance a male officer or a female officer will do the same to a junior of whatever sex as there is if they're gay. It it the whole thing is an absolute nonsense. Yeah. I I was, I've also Joanne Lockwood: experienced the SIB for for different reasons at the time. And as a result of someone reporting me for something, when and I won't go into that in on this podcast. I've probably done it on a previous one, but, yeah, I I also was interviewed, with 2 scary men, basically, pointing, shouting, stomping their fists on the table Yeah. Telling me, confess now. It'd be much easier. We're gonna have you in the end if you don't get it over and done with. You know, if you just if you just come out with it now, this will all be over, and we can move on. It's like Yeah. There's a bunch of amount of pressure and bullying to make you conformally. And I was only I was 18 at the time. I was kinda scared. You know, I'd done something wrong. Yeah. I had. Like, you I knew it was wrong. It's part of those 10 rules you shan't do when you're in the forces. And Yeah. And, again, the blackmail and the all these sort of things and people feeling like that. And, yeah, it's it's a scary time, isn't it? And I I ended up I ended up exiting the forces via a little town in in Essex called Cofdister. So I spent a few days, which is the, Oh. That that's the that's the military prison or the Yes. Place you exit the military if you've been convicted. So, yeah, I I got, charged and taken in front of the station commander, hat off, march in, get, told you of punishment, walk out. I didn't elect the court martial. I was, I thought it's not gonna get any better than this, so just get get rid of me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a tough time when you're that young when you're, yeah. Okay. I'm I'm not trying to sit here and say I've I was innocent. I on the scale of things, what I did was not huge. I mean, what you did was with you you kissed 1 girl and said Emma Riley: Well, yeah. And that's and that's that's that's the extent. Literally nothing else. Yeah. I I think it that that's the thing that seems to mark particularly the the cases about against gays in military is the the mental cruelty and so forth that goes with it. I mean, for me, there was all of that that had happened, but then then they sent me home to tell my parents. That was that was pretty horrific. A forced coming out. So they sent me home, And, you know, I have to tell my parents that not only am I going to likely exit the Royal Navy, and they are so proud of me serving, you know. But also that I'm gay, and I'm absolutely terrified. Absolutely terrified. I I remember, viscerally the the room where I was sitting when I was trying to tell my parents all about this. And and I spoke to my mom, you know, in the last, again, in the last couple of years and say, how how was I? Because there's only so much you can hold on to from these days. And she said, it took me about 5 or 6 hours to stop crying long enough to actually tell them what was going on, which yeah. Horrific. So I I go back up to the base and survived the last couple of weeks or however long it was. And then you go up to captain's table, and it's your judgment is given, and it's discharged. Sure. Your services are no longer required. And they, Joanne Lockwood: I've got one of those. Yeah. They're redundant. May may redundant, basically. Emma Riley: Basically, yes. So, I mean, in many ways, I my my exit was a lucky one because it was an honorable discharge, quote unquote. I didn't get the red writing at the top for dishonorable discharge. So that didn't affect my future employment or anything like that. As far as that part of it is concerned. I mean, they made me sign a piece of paper to say that I wasn't going to challenge the decision. And so I did sign it, but I said the only reason I'm not challenging the decision now is because my father is so ill. Because, again, you gotta remember, my father's just had a quadruple bypass, so he's not in the best of health as all of this stuff is going on. And then that was it, 26th November 1993, handy kit bag, which I basically unceremoniously dumped it all on the on the quartermaster's floor as I left. And I kept everything that wasn't on my kit list. So I have a really random assortment of bits and pieces. Like, I think I've got a tie, a shirt, a cap, and a greatcoat. The greatcoat, I only wore for the first time last year to march with fighting with pride to the cenotaph as part of the remembrance day parade. That's that's how long it's taken me to even put that on. So, yeah, it was it was pretty horrific. And then I go home. My parents collected me. My parents hated what was going on to me, and they absolutely hated how they were treated at the gates because they were totally given the silent treatment, like personal non grata. They didn't want anything to do with my parents. And there was just me coming out of this gate on my own. It was pretty horrific. And then, yeah, I have to go home and redraw my entire map of the world, basically. Find out who am I now I'm not in the military. Am I am I really gay? Am I not? Find some kind of identity because, of course, in the military, your identity is all wrapped up in what you do. That is who you are. You are the job. And actually work out what in the heck I was gonna do for work cause I had no clue. So I spent maybe 5, 6 weeks at home licking my wounds and trying to start living again, I guess. Just I don't know. And then you kind of have to put one foot in front of the other. So I ended up looking at my skills from the military and going, okay, so what can I do? Well, I can, I can shoot an SAAT, but that's not that useful in civilian life? But as a radio operator, they teach you how to type. So and I typed at, like, 65 words per minute or something like that with very few mistakes. So I thought, okay. Well, I'll just go to a temp agency and say I can type. And I ended up doing it's like filing Clark and, you know, all that kind of low low level stuff. A bit of temp work here, there, everywhere, and did did that for a while. And then ended up doing a filing job for 1 company that turned into a permanent job for a bit. And that was that was quite useful because it gives me my first taste of the corporate world. And I found out that I was quite good with, like, fax machines, if you remember those, and printers, you know, stuff like that. So it was a bit, like, technical. Because I'd we'd done stuff like that in the military, and you just learn to give it a go and try and work out what's going on. So when I decided I wasn't gonna do that anymore, I thought I'd find another position. And I ended up finding a position as a help desk call taker. So I wasn't fixing anything, but I was taking the calls to log them. But as part of that, I started learning and starting fixing things. And then the from there, joining who was then Butlers Tully, part of LexisNexis Group now, as an IT analyst, like a base level IT desktop support person, and ended up, you know, opportunity as I either got bored or as opportunities came, I would go, oh, look. There's an opportunity of debt. Okay. Let's give that a go. And and then, you know, end up I ended up running the desktop support for LexisNexis in the UK, which was, you know, it was a great job, quite stressful at times, you know, as desktop support normally is. And then various things happened, and I ended up working in project engagement for the IT thing. And then that sort of changed into project governance for a while, and I ended up doing project governance at another group company. And I've now ended up through being a program manager for the privacy office. I'm now doing program governance and operations. So I'm managing a team in Manila who do stuff for our privacy office for our company. I've run projects, so we're literally in the middle of kicking off 7 Asia Pacific projects at the moment for privacy programs. And I I absolutely could not have told you in a 1000000 years that that is what I would have ended up doing. I'm basically a jack of all trades and master master of none. And at 50 almost 52, I've started to work out actually what I'm quite good at. But I also think, just imagine if I'd exited the the military on my own terms, I probably would have been in this position 5, 10, maybe even 15 years ago. So the the effect of my career has been quite devastating. And that doesn't even touch how what the effect has been on my mental health or or have interacted with people or or my relationships or or trust and so on and so forth. So there's a huge other piece to it that gets impact. Do you think the what you went through at that Joanne Lockwood: young formative age helped you build some resilience? I mean, I look back at my life and I think, actually, when you have all that worry, all that stress, all of that stuff going on your head, the fact that you're now thrown out into the street, no career, all the shame, all the all the pressure around you, you can sit there and and cry and hug a lot in a ball, or you can say, okay. Dust yourself down as you say it. I think it's gonna do Yeah. I I did I did I was filing, and I I did this, and I got a job through what I was doing as a temp and doing all this. And suddenly, I built a new career, and I look back at some of the people who who stayed in the apprenticeship course that I was on. And they said, to be honest, after we left training, it was never as good as we thought it was gonna be. It was a bit of fun. We had a laugh, but, actually, the best years were the 3 years at the beginning, which I did. So I I look back and think, okay. I got into Sylvia Street and and built a life rather than maybe exiting in my late thirties, early forties maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And having to start again, having been, if you're not, indoctrinated into the military lifestyle and and way of thinking. So, yeah, I look back and think, yeah, I I don't I don't I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put it on my CV as a a learning opportunity, but, you know, with with hindsight, it it did actually give me something. It matured me up really. And I look back now, I think it could never get this worse. It was bad again. Yeah. If I can I can add anything? Yeah. And I I so one of my favorite phrases is worst things Emma Riley: happen at sea, which I can completely attest to. You know, if you've had a fire at sea or any of the other things that have happened to me, you can yeah. It's nothing worse than that. And and I I do agree, having gone through that, it definitely built resilience. In fact, I I was talking for my company on a they did a a pride pod not podcast. Well, I suppose you call it a podcast, basically. Just a broadcast, you know, for the company than where they interviewed me for what I've what I've done and what I've gone through. And unbeknownst to me, our CEO was listening. And at the end, they bring him on to say a few words. And what was interesting to me and quite amazing to me is that he said, people like me make great executives, because they've gone through so much, they've overcome so much, they don't get phased by the small stuff. So your your ability to hold and manage stress and stressful situations or complex situations is a lot higher than somebody who's not gone through that kind of experience. Now, like you, I would certainly never advocate going through that kind of experience as a learning tool, because frankly, I really wish I hadn't. And it's it's damaged me in many different ways. But from a from that perspective, yes, there is an advantage, if you like, in that I've been able to do that. I would add though that there has to be a kernel of resilience in you to begin with to be able to build on, because, again, hearing some of the stories from veterans, you can see who's had that and who hasn't had that. It it it a lot of the time, I think, it depends on what support you have when you come out. I was lucky that my parents were completely supportive of me, so I had a home to go through go to. And I know many had not only just had their careers destroyed and their identity ripped away, but they also then had their family's doors slammed in their faces. So there's there's there's many layers to that. You didn't take this lying down though, did you? I wanna Joanne Lockwood: I wanna hear what happens next. So what happened next? You in the middle of getting thrown out and starting your new life, you you did something quite extraordinary, and I'd love to hear more about what you did to change change the UK. Well Change the world. So I had, as I said, written on the written on Emma Riley: the paper, you know, I'm only not challenging this because my father is so well. Well, I kind of that was always in the back of my mind. So I got thrown out. I sort of started my career build, and I got to about 5 years into it. And I had a permanent job that I was enjoying. So this is when I was working as help desk. At that point, I had a girlfriend for the first time, a proper for the second time, in fact. So it's a much more serious relationship. And I felt comfortable enough in my own self and sexuality and my career and who who I was at that point where I thought, okay. This is the moment where I can start to look at doing something about it. Because I'd it it comes back to that thing. I hate bullying because I've been bullied all the way through school. I've been bullied in small ways when even when in the military. And then at the end of it, bullied institutionally by being harassed and humiliated and thrown out of it. So I wanted to try and change the narrative. So I basically phoned up Stonewall, And I have to thank whoever I spoke to on that particular call because they gave me the number of a solicitor who was taking another case, a similar one to mine, about being thrown out of the military. And I phoned up that person who was Stephen Gross of bin Bindman and Partners and spoke to him. And he's he took my case, basically. So I self funded myself. This is all alone. And I know at the time, they were rank outsiders doing lots of things, sort of politically and pressure wise and also building cases for what would become the the 4 headline cases at the time. But I just went alone to this solicitor, told my story, and said, I don't want to do something about it. And what we did first was you have to go into the UK courts first. So I took the Ministry of Defense to court. So it's me versus the Ministry of Defense. And it it didn't work. It was trying to say that sexuality should be in the same category as gender, as far as discrimination is concerned. And, basically, the UK courts didn't allow that. There was a a precedent from Southwest Trains that was used to throw the case out. And the case itself was it was the the only time I actually went into a court, because it went it was a public hearing. So I was there with my barrister, and then there was, I think, 3 QCs, who would they be king's council now, but then queen's council then for the Ministry of Defense. So it was like it was ridiculous. It was David and Goliath. And that that that was that was quite a scary experience to sit in that courtroom as that whole thing was being talked through. But as I said, we we found out that that wasn't going to go ahead because of this previous precedent. So then the only other option that we have is to take effectively take the UK to court in the European Court of Human Rights. So here we have more conversations, more evidence gathered that I can talk about, and the whole thing gets filed out with the European Court of Human Rights. So that is now the beginning sort of April ish, I think in, 1998. And so every so often we get letters back and forth. There's another question that they ask. We are trying to get transcripts of my interview tapes, which, oh, surprisingly, the Royal Navy have lost. Oh, isn't that interesting? Yeah. The the the the military the Royal Navy and the Ministry of Defense were doing anything and everything in their power to squirm out of having to change the law. And so every every challenge we made would be met with some other kind of ridiculous question, or or evasion, or no, or whatever. So we just kept on back and forth answering these questions until, it came to the end of 1999, I think it was September 27th 1999, and the European Court of Human Rights ruled on those four headline cases with the pressure of the other cases like mine behind it, and said, it is a violation of the article 8, I think it was, in which everybody has a right to a private life. And effectively they stated that the ban on homosexuals serving in the military was illegal. So the end of 99, the government re handed this ruling, and, that meant that in January on January 12, 2000, the law was changed to allow gay people to serve in the military. I would say, Labour likes to say, trumpet, if you like, that they were the ones that lifted the ban. And I can absolutely attest to the fact that they and the conservatives, and frankly, any other political party that was around at the time, none of them wanted to lift it. And the only reason that ban was lifted was because I and the other people put our heads above the parrot parapet and took them to the European Cruising Rights. As you say in the notes, it it it took another 23 years from Joanne Lockwood: that date Yep. To any semblance of an apology, compensation Yes. All the time. So they're kicking that Emma Riley: one into the long grass as much as they can. Yeah. 23 years. And the only reason they even started to do any of this stuff is because people got together again. LGBT veterans got together again and started pressurizing them to actually look into the damage that they created. Because what they did was change to Lauren and go, hooray, Marie. Everybody can serve now. And then again, promptly forgot us having forgotten us the moment they closed the door on our backs. And basically, I mean, I kinda from my own personal experience, I spent, you know, decades not talking about it. I didn't talk about it to anybody. And I didn't interact with other human beings in the same way that you would normally do. I I mean, I give an example of which is, I joined a choir in in 2002. So it's a women's choir. And at the moment, at that time, I'm now an openly gay woman. That's all fine. But what what I was so terrified of was ever being called a a predatory lesbian, or I was so worried about me looking at somebody the wrong way, quote, unquote, that they would think that I was fancying them. Or if I I would be terrified that if somebody was upset and I maybe put my hand on their shoulder to try and say it's okay, I'd be worried. I wouldn't do that because I'd be terrified that they'd think that I was trying come on to them or something. You know, you as a choir, you have to change in a training room before you go on stage and you put makeup on blah blah blah. And I would always try and find, like, the corner and, like, look as much as possible at the wall or the corner or away from everybody, because I was so worried that somebody would take it the wrong way. So it's just really debilitating in in that kind of sense. And then you don't feel worthy of the work you're doing. You don't feel worthy of being in the relationship. So you don't necessarily treat yourself to the relationships that you really deserve. And it and it's only since my early forties, so my 10 years ago that I've started to really work through those trust issues. I had counseling, really, for the first time a couple of years back because my my current my wife has 2 children, and I went in at teenager, which is quite quite a difficult time for them, as well as being difficult just generally for anybody. And and so there were times in in that journey of of being with them and learning how to be a step parent, all of those things, that, you know, teenagers challenge things. And and for various circumstances, there was there was some very challenging behavior going on a few years back that was in direct kind of opposition to my core values of truth and not lying and not bullying, and and so all of all of that got wrapped up in a very difficult situation. And I found I just I had to talk to somebody about it, and I'd never done that before. And that really showed me how much of my my life had been protecting that inner self. And and, honestly, the only reason that I can really speak with you now is because I met the person who's now my wife, and I was able to start relaxing into being vulnerable with somebody for probably the first time in my life. I completely credit her with with bringing me alive, basically, in in in front of in front of everything. And being allowed to start speaking of it was was a a long journey. I I I only started speaking of it really properly as a an actual story, maybe 20, 16 or something like that. I got contacted by a professor who is writing a book called Goen to Strath's book, who is looking at cases taken to the European Court of Human Rights by women and men about gender or sexuality. And he'd found my name as part of somebody else's materials and desperately wanted me to be part of the book because there were so few women who took the cases forward. It was mostly men. Joanne Lockwood: I Just listen to what you're saying there about, obviously, you internalized Emma Riley: all of the hate, all of the, you're not good enough, all that kind of Joanne Lockwood: things. You're thinking to yourself, I'm the predator. Oh, this must be hugely difficult. And I was just saying, and it's not trying to cost as persons. Men walk into a room and they check women out, but you walk into a room as a woman, and you're you're worried about checking women out. And that's kind of that you're feeling that kind of a sense of oppression about your identity and everything and Completely. People and Emma Riley: Yeah. So it's it's kind of the reason, as I said, I sort of started talking that first conversation I had with Paul Johnson and for the book was deeply distressing to talk it through. So I'd never told it as a story from start to finish with all of the detail that I've now gone into with you. And yet, that that was that was really powerful for me, because that experience of talking to him, the way that he explained how important that had been, meant that that allowed me to start talking about it and thinking about it a bit more. The next thing that happened is that my stepdaughter asked me to give a presentation to her school. So I got asked by the school, a secondary school, to go in and do an assembly, and it was the whole school. And so for the first time in my life, I put a PowerPoint presentation together. I got some photographs together. I thought, right, okay, I've got 20 minutes or 25 minutes to tell my story and get something positive out of the end of it. Because you can't just tell your story and go, well, there's it. Well, in my opinion, I wanted to be able to try and bring the point that one person can actually change things. And yes, I was one person going to the European Court of Human Rights. Well, I wasn't the only one, but I know that without my case and the other people who independently did it, we just simply wouldn't have got that change. So you do have to have that inner knowledge that one person can change the world. So I did this talk, which was terrifying. I've never done speaking before in my life, and I'm standing at the front of an assembly hall with 11 no, 15 year olds, blind clear looking back in their hormonal fog. And you never know how this thing is going to land, but I found out a few years later. We we, we met a mom of 1 of the kids who'd seen that assembly, and, she said, do you know that assembly? My kid came back and said, this was the most amazing talk you'd ever seen. You see, you just don't know who you're affecting. I I with my singing, I now do I've done leadership stuff. So we have a general convention once a year. And as part of that, I was on stage doing some emcee work, like, you know, organizing some of the some of the some of the weekend. And at that time, I'd I'd basically said to myself long before I'm not going to be in the closet, so I was an out gay woman on stage in a position of responsibility. And about 10 years later, we met a woman who's an opera singer, and her first ever route, if you like, into singing was to sing barbershop, which is the style that we sing. And so she'd come on to one of the competitions in about 13 or 14 years old, questioning her and her sexuality. So she wasn't sure if that was who she was, or she thought she was, but she was scared of that whole thing in China. So she came along to this convention, saw me, I was on stage, openly gay woman in a position of responsibility, respected, and talked to in a normal way. And that was the moment that crystallized for her. Actually, it's going to be okay. I can be gay, and it will be okay, because I can be respected. And I literally would never have known that if we hadn't met her 10 years later through my wife's work. But it it is it is really key to be able to be your authentic, open self in any speed you possibly can, because you never know who you're going to affect just by being yourself. You feel this pressure on you Joanne Lockwood: to be out and open and openly gay woman. You said that use that phrase a couple of times. Mhmm. You feel there's pressure to to be the the visible role model or to show that inspiration? I definitely Emma Riley: don't call it pressure, but I do say that visibility is critical. You you can't be what you can't see. And actually, one of the things that my company is really good at is having people visible of different kinds. My CFO is a gay woman. I'm out there as well, you know, being openly gay. And and there are various various other people who are doing the same kind of work. And even in my, you know, singing organization, I I gave you that example, and I'm on the diversity, equity, and inclusion council for it to help ensure that we move in the right direction as far as gender equality is concerned. And it just is so important to be able to see a version of yourself up there to say, actually, it is safe to be who you are. You can be anything. You can be on stage and sing and be gay. You know, you can be CFO and be gay. You you can do talking on the television or the radio and actually be listened to and and understood, and be allowed that platform to be able to try and reach people so that people can be connected and understand that they are good, excellent human beings. I I always say so I volunteer for Diversity Role Models, which is a charity that goes into schools and does workshops to try and try and end LGBT bullying. So building empathy with kids who generally don't speak to real gay people until they leave school. So I go in there and tell my story and kind of shake up shake them up a bit, because it's a bit dramatic. But the long and the short of it is I say, you know, we're all skin bags of blood and bones. There's no real difference between us. You know, how you choose to present your particular skin bag is completely fine. And whether that person is religious or not, whether that person is gay or not, transgender or not, one sex, intersex, etcetera, etcetera. It literally doesn't make any difference. You are all the same material underneath. Pride's coming up in June. I mean, this Joanne Lockwood: episode probably going out after June, but we talk about pride being a protest as well as a celebration. We're living in a world in 2024 here where there's this pushback on wokeness. We hear it all the time. It's been weaponized. Mhmm. I I do you feel that people are kind of saying to you, come on, Emma. Can you just put your gayness away for a bit? Let's talk about. Emma Riley: Yeah. Yeah. My work colleagues say, you got you've gotten another award or something. Is that for the gay stuff then? Like, it becomes a thing. Well, yes and no. Pride is a protest, as well as a celebration. And the fact that there are still people out there who are terrified of telling their parents or their colleagues or, you know, whatever that they're gay, transgender, etcetera, etcetera, is it still needs to be highlighted and these safe spaces still need to be created. It's why companies in particular, I think, need to make sure that they are on top of things like diversity, equity, inclusion, because somebody needs to be allowed to be their full authentic self at work in order to release that mental brain space, even from a simple productivity point of view, to be able to put their whole self into their work. And I have also said, you know, if you're at work, that may be your only safe space for various reasons. Maybe at your home space, there is a religious reason or a cultural reason why being gay or transgender is not something that you can speak about, but at your workplace, you should be able to be fully engaged and fully there. There are so many layers to this. There's so many layers. But, yeah, it does need to be visible It needs to be a protest because you can see how many of the laws and gains that we've made are under attack at all times. And it needs to be a celebration because there's nothing more powerful than people walking in pride together. Oh, you Joanne Lockwood: feel that event sense of, I know, your chest puffs out. You feel proud in pride, don't you? But you know that it's the only space well, it's one of the only spaces you can walk and know you'll you'll be accepted by everybody around you because we're all there for one purpose. It's Yes. Exactly. Immensely powerful immensely powerful. And I my wife often tells the story that we went to pride on the Isle of Wight when it was world pride. It was probably 5, 6 years ago. Mhmm. And it was the first time that she felt comfortable being with me and talk about things in that kind of way that made her believe that it was normal. We were just a normal couple with Yep. A different a different flavor maybe. And it was the first time she felt that. And I think you're right. Pride is there as a safe space to allow people to believe as well. And I think that's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Absolutely. You got a a vision? Yeah. What next? Your mission isn't complete on, the service band. You know, we we want compensation. We want all these other things, but it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I Emma Riley: and as much as anything else, the if I the more I can speak publicly about this, the more I can try and reach other veterans who maybe haven't heard about the reparations, who haven't had the opportunity to connect with other veterans because it to be able to tell your story to somebody who really understands is a very powerful thing. That happened to me a couple of weeks back. I met a person whose wife had been thrown out to the RAF in 1984, and she she'd said that go to a couple of friends and so, and they are legitimately horrified. But we met, and she told her story to me, exactly what she went through, knows the the terror and the shame, understands the mental cruelty that you go through. I mean, she'd been kept hanging around for 6 months given different dates, and the worst part of it was they used her as bait to get a corporal. How mentally destructive is that? And there are so many stories of that kind of thing. But connecting veterans with veterans who have that common military service, but also, crucially, that common experience of having gone through these discharges is very crucial. And, frankly, also getting people to apply for compensation, particularly the financial compensation because we need to pressure the government to actually come through with that money. People have been destroyed, lives destroyed, Careers never happened because people didn't have the mental capacity to go through. So they've had housing difficulties, relationship difficulties, health difficulties. People have died for this, and the government still The people who've served in in conflicts and wars, who've Joanne Lockwood: lost their medals and recognition and Yeah. Not just finance, but stripping them of every if ever achieved. And it's Yeah. The Emma Riley: humiliation. Yeah. Really humiliation. And it's Joanne Lockwood: yeah. It's it's definitely as large as you say. And I think we need more than the apology. We need restitution and reformation about what's happened. Absolutely. And they are making, finally, Emma Riley: due to pressure, strides towards that. I think there's a and I'm Joanne Lockwood: not gonna knock what they're doing, but it's kind of a cop out. When something happens 20 or happens 20 or 30 years earlier, it's easy to be sorry. It it doesn't cost anything to be sorry today. You can you can say whatever you'd use you like, because it's not you, your apologizing on the sins of the past or the pea your predecessors. It's easy to throw people under a bus 20 years later. Absolutely. Emma Riley: I I was one of only 2 veterans looking directly down at Rishi Sunak when he apologized on behalf of the state to LGBT veterans. And it was a very pretty piece of speech, as was Keir Starmer afterwards. But, actually, the one that hit home was the then defense secretary Ben Wallace had a space in the political program of that day a little bit later to talk about it. And he gave a proper, nuanced, personal, with humility, apology that referenced the fact that he was an officer at the time, and he was part of the problem. And having met gay people like MP Crispin Blunt later, he finally understood the real impact of what he'd been party to at the time. And so his contrition had far more emotion behind it than ever did the 2 heads of parties. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Emma, wow. Thank you. I really value your candor and openness in telling your story here today. So, yeah, absolutely absolutely powerful. How can we get a hold of you? You can find me on LinkedIn. I have Emma Riley: a website, emiraldi.uk. Please do contact me through either of those things. And, yeah, I do have a full time job, but I do work as much as I can to try and help around that, to get the message out there and try and help help people understand this history a little bit more. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.