--- title: "Embracing Neurodiversity And Queer Identities" episode: 121 date: 2024-08-08 guest: "Helen Davies" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/121-embracing-neurodiversity-and-queer-identities audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-121/audio.mp3 --- # Embracing Neurodiversity And Queer Identities Joanne Lockwood is joined by Helen Davies to explore the convergence of neurodiversity and queer identities, and what it can mean to navigate both at once. Helen shares how common the overlap can be within queer communities, and why visible, safe spaces and informed support matter for people who may be unsure about disclosing or seeking help. Drawing on her work in healthcare and her lived experience as a gender fluid, neurodivergent person, Helen reflects on barriers people face, from fear of being judged to the practical reality of long assessment waiting lists. The conversation also touches on how institutional approaches can create additional hurdles, including how people can be made to feel they must “prove” aspects of identity in order to access care. Together, Joanne and Helen discuss how language and symbols such as pronouns and sunflower lanyards can support inclusion, why many people worry about getting things wrong, and how generational shifts are changing everyday understanding. They also explore imposter feelings, confidence, and the importance of community and visibility, including Helen’s work supporting neurodivergent adults and helping organisations become more neuroinclusive. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 02:00 — Neurodiversity prevalent in queer community, safe spaces. - 05:19 — Importance of choice in gender identity process. - 07:51 — Some places offer support; addressing transphobia. - 11:26 — Limited disclosure, challenges coming out as neurodivergent. - 14:32 — Gender fluidity: Embracing both genders with confidence. - 16:17 — Supportive organization excludes non-binary speaker due to gender. - 21:25 — Struggling with writing and thinking patterns, dyslexia. - 23:24 — Difficulty with reading novels, but good with technical content. - 28:59 — Empowering others through awareness and support. - 30:49 — Struggle with impostor syndrome, progress in diversity. - 34:32 — Transition from male to non-binary causes confusion. - 38:34 — Explaining exclusion to children can be impactful. - 41:49 — Neurotypical majority, others on different side. Traits for diagnosis, common struggles highlighted. - 45:55 — Questioning need for reading and writing skills. - 49:31 — Finding your tribe validates and supports individuals. - 50:42 — Displaying ND-friendly symbols for safe spaces. - 56:14 — New online courses, public speaking, team harmony. - 58:14 — Express gratitude, join community, share, connect, return. ## Key takeaways - The prevalence of neurodiversity within queer communities and the critical need for creating safe spaces. - The impact of institutional prejudice and transphobia, especially concerning trans young people and their access to gender services. - Challenges surrounding gender identity and representation in traditionally gendered spaces, such as women's tech events. - The complexity of balancing the history and struggles of women while inclusively acknowledging non-binary and trans identities. - Strategies for managing unconscious biases and recognising individual strengths within professional and personal settings. - The role of symbols and schemes, like pronouns and sunflower lanyards, in signaling allyship and creating inclusive environments. - Addressing the generational divide in understanding and accepting diverse gender identities and sexual orientations. ## FAQs ### What is neurodiversity and how is it relevant to queer identities? Neurodiversity refers to the variation in the human brain regarding sociability, learning, attention, mood, and other mental functions. It is a concept that highlights the inherent diversity of human minds. The relevance to queer identities comes from the observed prevalence of neurodivergent individuals within the queer community, often sharing experiences of feeling different and facing societal challenges. ### Why are safe spaces important for neurodivergent individuals in the queer community? Safe spaces are vital as they provide a supportive environment free from judgement where individuals can express their true selves without fear. For neurodivergent individuals within the queer community, safe spaces are essential to discuss and navigate their unique challenges at the intersection of neurodiversity and queer identity, fostering a sense of belonging and acceptance. ### What are the main challenges faced by neurodivergent and queer individuals from institutions? The main challenges often include institutional prejudice, which can manifest as lack of understanding, systemic discrimination, and inadequate support structures. Transphobia and ambiguity in institutional policies can especially exacerbate difficulties for trans and gender-fluid individuals. ### How does gender fluidity complicate traditional societal norms? Gender fluidity challenges traditional binary gender norms and classifications which society often uses to dictate behaviour and roles. Individuals who identify as gender-fluid can face difficulties fitting into these binary categories, impacting their social acceptance and self-identity. ### Why is visibility for neurodivergent individuals important? Visibility helps in normalizing neurodiversity and reduces the stigma associated with it. By promoting visibility through initiatives like the neurodivergent champion scheme, society can better acknowledge and accommodate the unique strengths and challenges of neurodivergent individuals, fostering an inclusive environment. ### What can be done to support neurodivergent individuals awaiting diagnosis? Support can be provided through increased awareness, better funding for diagnostic services to reduce waiting times, and interim support groups or services that help individuals manage symptoms and challenges associated with their neurodivergence. Some regions may offer specific programs through local health services to support those on waiting lists. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today, it's episode 121 with the title, Embracing Neurodiversity and Queer Identity. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Helen Davis. Helen supports neurodivergent in adults and the organizations they are in. When I asked Helen to describe her superpower, she said, she has both a superpower and some Kryptonite. And she thinks that having ADHD has helped her live more than one life. Hello, Helen. Welcome to the show. Helen Davies: Hi, Jo. Really fantastic to be here. Thank you. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. We've had a bit of trouble in the green room. We've been all over the place. We're into Zencast and out of Zencast and back into Zoom. So these never go smoothly. But welcome them. I'm glad we finally can see and hear each other, which is amazing. So, Helen, embracing neurodiversity and queer identities, Tell me a bit more about what you do and how we can do that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, in terms of that specific Helen Davies: point, I've noticed that there's a very, very high prevalence of neurodiversity within our queer communities. I'm not saying you have to be queer to be neurodiverse, but there tends to be a lot of people in neurodiverse who are queer. And so I think that that that therefore, as well as all the colors of a rainbow and the various identities that we have, that is very much part of the intersection that we also have and share. And practical wisdom supports neurodivergent adults, as you said, and in in all their glorious diversity, including about sex and gender as well and sexual orientation. So I myself are gender fluid, and I think it's really important for our queer community to know that there are safe spaces to go where they can, you know, disclose about their neurodiversity and actually get some help if that's what they need. You mentioned, yeah, Joanne Lockwood: the the intersection of neurodiversity, ADHD, ASD, and Yeah. Queerness is is quite prevalent, you might say. Yeah. But I and I don't wanna dive too much into talk about the CAS report because that's Oh. That's been said a lot. But that that seems to conflate the issue as being, if you have neurodiversity, then you're not genuinely gender dysphoric or or trans. But you're saying there's a there's you could be both, and it's not a problem. You Helen Davies: can easily be both. And I you know? And I'm part of the trans community, so I can very much consider both. And one didn't cause the other. I happen to be both. Yeah. I have. Yeah. There's a rabbit hole, isn't it? That whole cast report. I I think my concern is having had been lived in under section 28 when I first came out, And I remember the repression. I remember you didn't know if you say, if you were queer, that you, you know, if you get lose your job, you, you weren't certainly wouldn't mention it at school. You'd, you know, you'd get your head kicked in at certain places. You know, you have Jo really watch yourself. And I had thought we'd moved on decades, but it feels like literally that's reversing. And I guess I am very concerned for our trans young people who are having this level, I think, of institutional prejudice and transphobia, quite frankly. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: But one one thing I'm you work in the NHS or with the NHS or around the NHS. Yeah. We know that services are underfunded. They're stretched. Is it just that trans people have have crept up stealthily and quickly, and and they're not geared up to support in the gender services. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess, I also Helen Davies: should add, as a caveat, I'm speaking as part, a person in the community rather than in my role. Of course. Yeah. That's an important distinction to make Joanne carry out these days. But I I mean, I I there's certainly a lot of, yeah, cuts these days and refocusing on what we're doing, trying to catch up post COVID and all that kind of stuff. I think there's some fundamental philosophy, philosophical differences. So if you're in a community and you want to, you know, you feel it's your right and your choice to change, you know, to towards the body that you actually feel is actually your true self. That's a choice and and a wish. And I think the trouble is is the a lot of the model in some in the gender services, there are more model, which is about you have to prove that you're trans enough, that you want it enough, and you have to live a certain way for a certain amount of time, which isn't about choice. That's about proving you tick enough boxes to warrant that proceed those procedures. And so that's like a fundamental philosophical difference of looking at us it and yeah, unfortunately given the current CAS report and the other changes, it doesn't look like it will change towards what we would prefer, which would be us to have agency over our own bodies. Yeah. I mean, we had the same Joanne Lockwood: with the Gender Recognition Act review, the Scottish one blocked by 35, the the one that Theresa May tried to get going in 2018. It's kind of just at the point, yeah, I, and maybe many others felt that the time was coming, the time was right, I thought, wow, it's looking optimistic. And then suddenly, the last 12 to 18 months. Yeah. And I th I think that's the Helen Davies: hardest thing psychologically is we it felt like we were getting somewhere, you know, genuinely did. And then you're like, suddenly like the whole rug's been like whipped away. And then some, and, and I know that people are very concerned about that Equally, there's a lot of people in the healthcare profession who are very much, you know, all for inclusion, you know, on all levels, including about transgender services, who are wanting to make a difference, who are looking at inequalities. So health inequalities is also really actively being looked at, and, actually, I'm a clinical director for transgender health care. There's not a lot of well, I don't know if there's anyone else who is. And, you know, that's because, you know, we, we very much care about health inequalities, where I work as well. So I think there's there's much to do. It feels like it's an uphill bath. So and but there is there are places doing awareness training, trying to support people, putting in locally commissioned services for GPs, for annual health checks, doing different, like better initiatives to try and reassure the community that there are places where they can go and actually feel like they can get the care that they deserve. Because equally, I wouldn't personally want to go to any health practitioner who has a problem. You know, I don't it's mutual. No. I don't wanna see them. They don't wanna see me. And and, you know, officially you would, you know, no one would say that that there are there are these practitioners who are transphobic, but I think we can see that, you know, just as if we wish there wasn't other prejudicisms, there are going to be people in such a large workforce where that, where that's going to be the case. But a lot of, lots of work is to done to try and, you know, say that's not acceptable. And I'm part of a group of people who are 100% committed to make a difference to our trans community, as well as all the other people who need inclusion and deserve inclusion. So that's in terms of my health care side of things. I'm a I'm a great believer Joanne Lockwood: that inherently people are good, and inherently people feel they're doing the right thing. And that just because their view is different, have a different perspective, different lived experience, doesn't mean to say that they're a bad person. I think sometimes we what we do is we jump to this polarized debate Mhmm. Of you're over there and I'm over here. If you don't agree with me, I I I won't accept you. And if you don't agree with me, I won't accept you either. We end up being so far apart, we can't actually have conversations, I think. That's what we're seeing in society at the moment. It's this real polarization of perspectives. And without whilst forgetting that everyone all people really want is for everyone to have a good life. And Yeah. I guess people are are worried, scared, confused, don't understand, whatever it may be. Yeah. And, you know, Helen Davies: all those things that you've also discussed, obviously, you know, They it's been, issues like, you know, like I said, going back to section 28 to the homophobia, to the aids pandemic that happened, you know, I remember those times vividly. I remember nursing the, you know, some, so this really lovely patient who was sadly an AIDS victim and he got a lot of homophobic. And I was there because back in the day, the basically the night staff weren't paying enough attention. So his partner paid for a private, you know, nurse to go and support his partner overnight. And that there were completely misunderstandings. And back then, people worried that they're gonna die from catching this. And now you're back in the day, it was like seen as the gay disease initially and stuff like that. So, you know, sadly, these difficult times have been here at different points. But when we look at neurodiversity as well, people, you know, it's another area of where people can feel excluded, where people can feel different. And that's the crossover, isn't it? You know, sometimes you can feel like you don't fit in or you're not accepted for and that there's some prejudice against you. And I I when I think back to my twenties, I can tell you now, there's no one year would've disclosed I'm dyslexic. I'd have thought I wouldn't get a Jo, bit like I wouldn't have disclosed I was, like, queer. It's like, no. You're alright. I want I needed work. Jo. So there were a couple of things you just didn't disclose, you know, or if you did, you didn't like discreetly. And interestingly, I came out as being queer, you know, over the decades a lot quicker than I came out as being neurodivergent, because it genuinely felt career limiting for a very long time. My you know, there's and even now, you know, you speak to people, they are fearful. Some people have bad experiences when they come out of being judged and some seem to find themselves suddenly being performance managed out of jobs. There's a lot of misunderstanding about neurodiversity and actually the benefits it can bring as well. You know? And so that's why, you know, I've, I've really been avidly trying to address in, you know, inequality all my life, obviously, in in health care. But I also I felt it was really important to deal with the inequality about being neurodivergent. When I worked at City University as a lecturer there, I made a point of saying I was a dyslexic tutor. Because at that point, you know, it was you you knew that people might frown upon you if you said you're a teacher in dyslexic, you know? And, and so there are I feel I mean, I look at the journey I've been both in the newer divergent world and the queer world, there are so many synergies. There really are. And, yeah, Jo. And so that's what practical wisdom is particularly supporting people who are neurodivergent, but or importantly, I also think the organizations, like you say, I agree with you. I don't think in people inherently bad, they might be misinformed that I want to help raise awareness. I want to help, you know, help change people's perspective for for the better for inclusion around, but particularly about the, ND world. You mentioned at the beginning, you you you Joanne Lockwood: would call yourself queer, genderqueer, gender fluid. Yeah. People have people have heard the term trans woman. They've they've come into use to the term trans man. They didn't believe trans man existed until recently. You know? Yeah. I know. Well Trans women are obviously spot us a mile off and then don't like us. So yeah. And we've heard about term non binary recently that, again, people are kind of not sure about. So how would you describe your gender fluidity? What does that mean to you? Yeah. Well, it's interesting because initially, I I was Helen Davies: like, oh, I like non binary. I'm not sure I have a particular, you know, gender I could read there. And then I found I was like, actually, Jo. Probably gender fluid is actually a better description. The thing is is that I'm I'm 54. I'm not gonna say I'm old, but I'm older. And back in the day, you didn't have all these different terms. You didn't have all these different labels. And I, you know, I just kind of didn't think about it until many decades later. And then I was like, oh, yeah. You know? And Brighton's got a very fantastic Brighton and Hoe Joanne Pride. And it I'm it made me really think about it when I got involved with that a little bit more. And I was like, oh, yeah, actually. But interesting, I also felt really shy. I did not want to come out again. I felt doing it once was fun enough. And I did know that whether it was nonbinary or gender fluid, that that, like, gender nonconforming was definitely me. I'd never felt that I was all one or the other. I just just didn't. And we you know, back in the day, we used to be called tomboys. And and, actually, in some ways for for me personally, that reflected the the the richness of having both genders really that I identified with. And that, and that is how I do feel now. Interestingly, she go on websites and if you, you even go to different women's events, you know, like, am I allowed anymore? You know, it does that happen? I actually found I never used to worry about that. And I've been involved with women's rights and issues for like decades. And then now I find myself nervous. And if, unless I see that trans women are welcome and so are people who still self identify, you know, who are gender nonconforming, then I don't go, you know, I'm like, and I know that there's a subdivide in our own communities about things as well. And I've just found it's more complicated being gender fluid. Like, people don't know what to do with you. They just don't. Let alone which toilet you use to bake. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, use that one at 10 o'clock in the morning. Use that one at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. It's obvious that or or whatever. Which which one's free? I mean, just just pick a door. Yeah. So I I remember dealing talking to a a young person, when you say young, early careers or in their twenties a couple of years ago, and they identified as, non binary. Mhmm. They were pretty pretty supportive of the Women in Tech Forum in their organization and across the world. And and they've then got this message from the organizers or the people who ran it, say, we understand, yeah, you you you're now you're a non binary. Unfortunately, that means you're no longer allowed to represent and speak on our stages because this is for women. Yeah. And she she we had a good chat about this. And I and I said, well, it it it really is a a struggle. If you're assigned female at birth, you still have an allegiance to, from a historic point of view, to sensitivities of women. You understand some of the the growing up issues that that women have. If you're assigned male at birth, you it's really awkward. So if you're not if you're not careful, the women's network could welcome assigned male at birth people who are nonbinary. If you said women and non binary and gender fluid people are welcome within our network, then people get really freaked out, but you're not a woman enough. Yeah. If I let if I let you in, someone who identifies as so I'm feeling a a fine man at birth could come in in stealth or something and then take out space and take us out. So it's really complicated, all this tentative body stuff, isn't it? Very complicated. It's yeah. Helen Davies: Yeah. And it's difficult. I mean, but it's not just that, even if you think, for example, so I'm dating somebody who is a woman. So, so if I'm gender fluid, does that make me straight when I'm feeling masculine and lesbian when I'm not Do you know what I mean? It's like, do I change between that throughout the day? Other amusing things like we have father's days and mother's days And, like, my my my child was saying to me, but you're both, aren't you? I yeah. And they were like, oh, should I get you a father's day card? They were like, why not? I said, because I do the work at both. You're a single parent. You certainly do. So it it's just interesting because but things are so binary that you just you regularly do not fit in in in in in so many boxes. But there there are Joanne Lockwood: people, as we know, out who are trying to enforce the frigidity of this binary. And I I I I understand it. Yeah. As a woman myself, I understand how women have had to overcome oppression, marginalization, discrimination, less opportunities. So there's a real desire to make sure that we don't lose what it is to be a woman Yeah. In all of this Jo that we we lose the the momentum of equality and equity that we still lack in society. So it's it's about that. That's that's the real struggle. Yeah. Helen Davies: And and I and I know because I I you know, I I have heard people with their different perspectives as to, you know, what they think about that and how hard fought it was to gain any grounds on women's rights. You know? And and I I know that that's felt felt very strongly in certain sectors. And I think that that's very difficult because I don't want to diminish the struggles that people had, but equally I will, or, you know, trans women are women. That's, that's my point of view. I'm not changing that. It's like you said, we we're going to have opposing views with some people and it's, I guess, it's how we deal with those opposing views. Yeah. And the Joanne Lockwood: government don't help. But but you don't need to comment on that, obviously. But yeah. It's, Yep. It is. It's just a struggle at the moment. It's, over opening the paper, you know, scrolling through news reports on your phone. It it's everywhere. Jo, yeah. Can we talk a bit about your your neurodivergence? How it how you how did how did you I mean, you obviously realized at some point in your life, you were queer, genderfluid, trans, however you wanna describe yourself, at some point in your life. When did you first kinda figure out that neurodiversity was a thing as well? Was that kind of early on? Well, Helen Davies: yeah. So even in primary school, I knew I found things tricky. And I think my dad even had a chat with a teacher and said, you know, I think I think my daughter is, you know, dyslexic. And they went, yeah, probably. And they were like, but we don't like to pigeonhole kids. So therefore they didn't. So we did there was no assessment. I got extra lessons, which they called remedial lessons, lovely title. And, so I was that, you know, special education needs kid at primary school. And I went to secondary school. And when we they moved, they were like, oh, let's not put her in grammar school. She won't do very well when she'll struggle. So then they put me in the comprehensive, which found by me, by the way. But, and so I went there and I remember being in the bottom set for everything, but getting the classes really quickly and then sitting there bored for hours, like so long. And all my school reports would do better if they applied themselves or didn't daydream. You know, but actually it was so boring because I got it really fast. I just couldn't write it very clearly. I didn't know how to access my written side of things and, and, sequencing as well. It's not, it's not just about spelling mistakes. It's I actually understand things fast, the kind of writing it down and saying it back to you in a linear fashion has taken a lot of work because my thinking like is I used to Jo, I don't even think straight. So my thinking is all over the place, but I can actually make connections that other people can't, you know? Yeah. So it was interesting. I didn't actually get my dyslexia diagnosis until my mid twenties When I went to night school for a high national certificate in business and Joanne, and they did assessment then. And even before the assessment, they were like, oh, we don't think you're that dyslexic, but you know, let's do the assessment. And then she just came out, she went, oh, actually you're very dyslexic because the threshold of how I was achieving to what I could be achieving was huge. So the higher the frustration zone, the more it is a disability, basically, because you're not reaching your potential, whatever that be for you. But at that point I'd already passed my nursing exams. And I can tell you now, I only got into nursing because there was an entrance test. I had bugger all qualifications. I didn't do very well at school. I've got in on an entrance test by, a winning and a prayer. And then I was with this fantastic nursing set, many of them from Southern Islands. And we just talked, we talked all the time about all the conditions about what we were learning. And I didn't know that all those chats were helping me pass my exams, because I can tell you reading was doing nothing. It wasn't retaining at all, but I could recall all those conversations. And that's how I managed to pass my nursing. And if that not happened, I wouldn't be here with you now. I'm not a big reader. Joanne Lockwood: I I I found that I was if I try to read a novel or a nonfiction or or sort of a fiction or something, I'd be reading the page, and I get to the bottom of the second page, and I go, I've not I haven't got a clue what I just read. It would just it would just I was I could read the words, but it just wasn't coming in. Yeah. But I'm but I can read technical or things that are nonfiction, where I'm looking for instruction or looking stuff up or reference information. Because my eyes are able to scan the page really, really quickly, lock on to what I'm trying to find, and go, right. Got it. I can extract data pages very quickly, but I can't I can't read all the fluff. It's just like Yeah. That. Just get me to the paragraph I need. So I can relate to that. Yeah. Reading reading just doesn't work for me either, really. But Helen Davies: No. And, I mean, now you have to read all the time for everything. So I read when I have to, and I can I got taught how to speed read, so you can pick up, do what you said, but I had to be taught that? And that that did help, but it doesn't help me retain it for ages or anything like that. You know, I have to really work at that. But luckily, you know, starting off a career in nursing, cause this week is 36 years being a nurse. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I, I learned by doing, you know, I, most of my career has been emergency care, which really fits with an ADHD profile as well. Cause we love drama. We love excitement. And so that's, it works then, you know, cause I'm on adrenaline, I'm excited. You're, you're kind of going to the next thing. You're purpose driven, You know, you're literally about trying to save as many lives as you can, you know, making a difference. So I hadn't didn't realize, and it was sheer luck that actually being in the NHS was the best thing for my neurospicy brain going. So, basically, it's all this stimulation and stuff. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: High high adrenaline and downtime and high adrenaline again. So Yeah. Helen Davies: And I I loved it. I mean, I absolutely loved it. I I was, you know, I used to you you buzz. You properly buzz. It's exciting. It's really interesting. But also any good department is actually well organized. So you it's not just you also have to be able to organize at a high level, like your patients. And, and some of them, my roles were quite senior where you were overseeing like bed management for an entire hospital. And then the cardiac arrest leak would Jo, and you'd have to, in the middle of that, go and respond to a cardiac arrest and then pick up again, getting back to the bed bed allocation. So, you know, you had to also be able to understand enough structure and organizing as well as the the kind of the more physical elements of health care. I noticed from, reading some of the show notes that you put together for Joanne Lockwood: me in advance that you you mentioned imposter syndrome. And Yeah. Tell tell me how that manifests. Is that is that in your gender, in your identity? Is that in your neurodiversity, in sorry. In a spiciness, or or is it evidence? In a lot of things. Like, being a parent, Helen Davies: Am I effing it up? I really worry about feel guilty for nearly everything. But in in in so for example, in my, you know, clinical work, I'm a clinical director and I'm actually gone up the scale. We have these band things and it goes 9 and then it goes higher and I'm higher than a 9, which only there's not that many of us in the country, really. So I'm pretty senior nurse. I still think I'll be found out soon. Right? And you kind of yeah. You just think, oh, you know, and and you're like, well, maybe there's, like, nothing special about me, and anyone could do this job. And you kind of think I mean, I forever feel grateful for where I am, but you're you you kinda worry, did you did you earn it? You know, did you do enough to get where you are? Yeah. There's a bit of worry about that. And, you know, bearing in mind I now, like, run a neurodivergent support company, you know, it took me a couple of years to feel confident enough to call myself an expert because I was like, but there's so many other people who know so much more about it than me. You know, what if I don't know enough? Luckily, now we've helped a few 100 people and we got really good feedback. I'm like, oh, it's okay. Maybe I'm alright. So it's things like that. It's not always about knowing everything though, is it? I mean, I I always Joanne Lockwood: say that I don't have to know everything as long as I I've got a method or a methodology. And people often describe me as considered and measured because I've got a brain that will think about sequences and how I would achieve something. I don't have to know everything. I've got a phone. I've got Google. I've got other stuff. I can I can assimilate lots of information and rationalize it and give an opinion that I believe in? So and I respect other views as well. So I think if you balance all that, and you don't necessarily need to be an expert in everything. Just you just have to know one thing more than somebody else is what I was saying. Yeah. Yeah. Helen Davies: Yeah. And, and, and I think as my whole life has been lived experience being neurodivergent, you know, I got a psychology and counseling degree. You know, people have been my hyper focus. Like I said, that's 36 years of working with people, you know, you know, I'm qualified lecturer as well. You know, I I'm actually doing quite a lot of things that really helped make me a good coach and trainer. And, and so I do now feel quite comfortable saying I'm actually really good at running workshops. And like you said, I don't need to know everything, but what I can do is, is I know the things in terms of what to deliver about the awareness, the common struggles that people have, the common things that help people. And you can take people on a journey because it's about the people before you. It's not like, you know, all about me. You know, the whole point is it's about supporting them and their understanding. And, you know, when you've got 1 in 5 or 1 in 7 people in neurodivergent, you can guarantee wherever I go, there's gonna be a few people out there, Whether they disclose or not is another thing. So it's about creating safe environments for people to feel that they can actually talk about it or or they can say they know somebody and what these issues are Jo that they're more out in the open. And that's my gift because I genuinely, am accepting nonjudgmental and care. You know, I I want to create these environments and I want to support people be empowered to to thrive, whatever that looks like for them. Yeah. I I get that. I I I was at a conference the other Joanne Lockwood: week, and I was chatting to this, this lady over coffee and just chatting away chatting away. And and towards the end of the conversation, she said, oh, and I'm, you know, a divergent if you'd hadn't noticed. I had noticed. We've been chatting we've been chatting for 15 minutes. I haven't said a word yet. You were just going girlfriend all over the place. She's a wonderful person, a wonderful conversation. And, yeah, and it's if you let people speak, let people share stories about themselves, you find out a huge amount. I mean, it's fun to me. It's I love doing this podcast. You know, I can have conversations with people I'd never have conversation with. But, yeah, impostor syndrome, it's I I think I'm I've been doing this this role now for about 8 years. Mhmm. And I transitioned about 7 and a half, 8 years ago. And I think in the early days, I was I had I had this massive impostor syndrome about saying the word we, as in we women or Uh-huh. Talking about, you know, as a as a as an insight rather than an announcement. And that that took me ages. And I still when I say those sort of things, I still have this kind of looking around me if I'm in public there. Did anyone give me a funny look by saying that? And so that that would probably I'll probably never get rid of that. But, yeah, but being in EDI space, again, it's it's just every day you improve. You continue learning. When you look over your shoulder, you look back and think, wow, 7 years ago. Believe me, I've come a long way. But you look you look down at your feet, you think, I haven't moved. And it's it's that's kind of that kind of thing, isn't it? And then as you say, believing people are gonna call you out there. Oh, they're far better than me. They're far good. Yeah. They they call you. They just feel nice. It's all it's all fluff and bluster on on social media. They're they're just the same as I am. Yeah. They're trying to figure it out as well. So There's a lot of trying Helen Davies: to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, having seen, you you talking in the public spaces, I mean, like, you're you know, I I really love your approach and your story's so compelling, you know? So I'm really glad that you're in the space where you are in EDI and you are sharing those things. And, and you like, particularly, you can bring me, like you said, that open to a conversation about it to help people, you know, along their understanding journey. So I think that's very powerful, really. Yeah. Because Joanne Lockwood: people are people are also scared of getting it wrong, aren't they? Oh, you must as you're a devoted person, genderfluid person, a queer person Yeah. People must be really kind of wary around you. It was, like, hyper hyper kind of concerned about did I get that wrong? Yeah. Helen Davies: You can definitely I have. It was interesting. I have been in some meetings where we're trying to look at different inequality stuff, and and people, yeah, like proper nervous and and almost say nothing because they don't want to say something and get it wrong and and being really worried about that. And and that's unfortunate because if people are that worried, then, you know, that's all that they're focusing on instead of the difference that they could make, because they're, you know, they're open to thinking a certain way, and they could actually make changes that are more welcoming or make a difference to the client group that they're they're actually, you know, feeling a bit nervous about getting it wrong for. Joanne Lockwood: That that reminds me of when we started talking before you before I press the record button. I was saying, just checking your pronouns, and you and you just sort of shrugged your shoulders at me and said, Annie. I went, how can I work with Annie? I said, actually, Eddie, that's fine. That's fine. I thought, you mean, I have to make a decision about the pronouns I use for you. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Oh, okay then. Okay. Where is she? That's fine if you're happy with that. It was then so I wasn't nervous about asking you. I was kinda bouncing with the call. It it wasn't a problem, but I can imagine people who are less used to those type of conversations would have been really kind of like, oh, my God. What do I do now? Yeah. And Helen Davies: if you're being particularly cruel, you could bounce it around. That'd be quite funny, but I haven't. But yeah. It's like Is she? Tell me what Is she? Hey. No. She Let's see what happens. Just confuse people. Yeah. I, yeah, I genuinely don't don't mind actually. Jo, yeah. But that, you know, obviously it's such a personal thing, isn't it? Cause also, you know, I've got, you know, I've got friends and know sometimes they're identifying as they, and she, and other times that it's just they and that, you know, they, it can flex. So even with the same person, I think you can be on a journey that it can, it literally can be fluid as well. So just checking in is always handy, isn't it? Yeah. No. It's it's always good to Joanne Lockwood: ask. I've I've got a a a professional friend who I've only known as a as a woman. And then probably a couple of years ago, they announced on Facebook or LinkedIn that they were non binary, they, then, pronouns. And I've got a lot of friends who know this person, and it's really confusing for them because it it took because they knew them before in their previous life and assigned their birth life. So they've they've gone through a transition from male to female to non binary. And they not all of them got the memo about the non binary. So there's there's there's still they're still proud of themselves getting it right for saying she when they've known them as he. And it's it's and I'm sort of correcting and doing this all the time. It's like, hey, can you see people look at me go, yeah. What? It's like, their brains are being blown out. And it's Yeah. It is it is it is kinda tricky for for people outside of our echo chamber, isn't it? This Well, it depends. Helen Davies: Is I thought that. But if you speak to any 20 year old, they don't find it tricky. Yeah. Yeah. That so I do also think there's, like, there's a certain threshold in the ages. Like, we we are making a meal of it, But but actually, the twenties were like, what? Like, they nip in and out all all that language and have even more expanded language about it that, you know, I I mean, I'm never gonna be cool with the kids in general. So but the you know, the they really don't have the same complexities we do about it. They just don't, which is A lot of its learned behavior, socialization, that Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Colonialism, religion. Well, that's kind of you can blame everybody. Blame the Romans. So are the Romans. Helen Davies: Yeah. The Romans. Yeah. What they have done for us? That's Monty Joanne Lockwood: Python. Yeah. I I don't think our average listeners probably heard of Monty Python if they're switching it gently. So you mentioned yeah. I don't wanna pry, but you mentioned that you got a family. And you mentioned about your not only are you queer in terms of identity, but then that that means your sexuality becomes a a kind of a moving target as well. And I I often joke with my wife about this as well, because it doesn't really matter to us. You know? You got a census form. You gotta tick a box. You know? Which is why I I tend to use pansexual because it means you can't I don't have to tell you anything. It just means anything's possible. My my wife tends to use bisexual, but only because it it it makes more sense to most people that she's a woman who was married to a Joanne, who's now married to a woman. And it kinda it allows them to go, okay, I get it now, without calling herself a lesbian. Because she's not gay. She's also bi. Because she she'll she'll she'll ogle The Rock on telly as much as she will, me, if you like. So Yeah. Yeah. Jo, yeah, she's she's kinda open to, all interactions. But, yeah, it's, it's really hard when you try and map this into a 3 a 2 dimensional scale, though, isn't it? Oh, it is as well. Because even if Helen Davies: chats that I've had with, like, my partner and they're like, oh, so what do you what is it okay to say we're girlfriends? You know? Or what are the term? And then we kind of went, oh, because, you know, kind of partner straight off on a few first few dates sounds sounds a bit too heavy. Do you know what I mean? So this is horrible. I was like, oh, I don't know. You know? And then because there isn't quite the the language or if it is it for me, like, it just felt a bit odd. I think somebody said something like you can have, like, they friend or something, and I just friend or them friend. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, nah. But, you know, but for someone else, that might fit. But it was such a weird conversation to have. So yeah. It yeah. The I I don't think the language has caught up. But like you said, it it it's a tricky one to to navigate. And it's interesting, in terms of when you say about socialization, I was trying to explain to like my child the other day, you know, I can't remember how it came out, but I said, oh yeah, when I was younger, I, you you know, I did get a bit of issues for, you know, for, for being a lesbian. He was like, why? I don't get it. Why would they mean? And of course, like they've not come across that yet. You know, they don't understand that at primary school age and like, well, well, why would you do that? Why would you exclude people or treat people different? And they're like, oh, that doesn't sound very nice. And, and it's interesting, the ideas of young children, you know, where they are in this, you know, they're the until they're socialized, they're the kind of not then they just don't don't see it as an issue. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That phrase, hate is a learned behavior. It's not inherent. It's you know, we have biases and safety mechanism, protectionism, and all this sort of thing. But actually weaponize it is a is a learned behavior, isn't it? It's not a Yeah. Not inherent. Helen Davies: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely. But it is quite interesting though, is the other things that is quite in terms of neurodiversity as well. There are different family norms on that as well. So you might have Joanne entire neurospicy household, but if they haven't bothered to have a diagnosis for whatever reason, they may not identify as that. And then you'll have other people who, you know, realize that their child has just been diagnosed with ADHD. And then, like, oh, I have all those traits. Oh, does that mean I am? Because there's a lot of people from 30 plus who didn't equally have that language or that level of interest when we were at school, you know. And so that's also changed over the decades as well. And so you've got a lot of people who you're realizing because of members of their family or friends are getting diagnosis and they realize that they've got a lot of those traits that actually may be they have that as well. So so that's that's quite interesting because it's quite common for whole families to be neurodiverse, to be honest. Mhmm. There's a hereditary element to it. I'm certainly probably more is this Joanne Lockwood: is there equivalent of gaydar for neurodiverse? End end endal or something. Endal. I'm kind of Haven't seen it yet. Helen Davies: No. I'm kind of more hyperaware when I'm around Joanne Lockwood: people thinking, Ed, there's some certain characteristics and certain ways of speaking, certain ways of interactions and doing and all this. I think it's probably ASD or some level of autism, anything. And then you just you didn't bother mentioning it. And then you you just learn to to put that into your little toolset in your head saying, okay, that I need to make sure that I'm explaining things differently or just be prepared or Yeah. We're gonna have a conversation differently and or be prepared for a bit of hyperfocus or a bit of bit of randomness going on here. Yeah. But is there such a thing as as as this neurotypical we talk about? You know, this this bell curve of normality where the actual normal bit is is so narrow. Is it everybody's on kind of some sort of diversion spectrum somewhere, aren't they? I mean, no one everyone could be Helen Davies: Everybody is different, but I think people who are neurotypical is a term obviously where it's a majority of the population. So when there is still 1 in 5 or 1 in 7 who aren't, then then they're the people who read the side of the curve, basically, in terms of whatever normal is. And so the other thing is to think about is like to get a diagnosis, you have to have a full suite of the traits. So you could have some new trait, new traits, but if you don't have a full suite, you don't win the, win the Lockwood ND prize of that label. But if you but you could still be chat you know, struggling. So for for example, I do, like, for we're supporting people who are on the waiting list for autism and ADHD assessments. We're supporting one of the the Kent organizations. And the top four issues that both autistics and ADHD have is planning and organizing, is attention and focus, harnessing emotions, and also managing sleep. They're the really highly prevalent problems. That doesn't mean that other people in the population do not have those challenges, but those are very common difficult traits that they share, which is why we aimed at those particular traits. So I I've also stepped away. It's like, I think labels are useful for heuristics, but I make it a bit more simple. If you're struggling with this and you want some support, that's what we do, you know, so that you can do it by the the challenge rather than a label. Do you, we talked about the full suite, and I Joanne Lockwood: I appreciate that. Yeah. You just say the the bowel curve has upper quartile, upper percentile, and lower percentile, and the people in the middle. And it's extremely difficult, as you say, to get the full suite, you know, the the occasional chair, the the sofa, and the footstool to to to get your diagnosis. But then the waiting lists are incredibly long at the moment, aren't they? Gotcha. Mhmm. Helen Davies: Yeah. That's a really, really big challenge, which is why Fair Play to NHS camp because they're actually doing something about supporting people while they're on the waiting list. Because unfortunately, the need is massively outstripped like the, the services that like significantly and that's everywhere up and down the country. So there there that is also being looked at at national level. But in the meantime, I think it's really good that bases like NHS, Kent are actually supporting their communities and offering things to to support the waiting list as well. So I think, you know, applaud what they're doing. But, yes, they're astronomical waiting lists. Yeah. What worries me is that Joanne Lockwood: a lot of people are going undiagnosed. A lot of people are living suspecting, as you say. I've I've met several people who ended up going through diagnosis because their their child was being diagnosed. Yeah. And then as as that process came to light, listen to how the clinician, physician was talking to this person around their diagnosis. They went, hang on a minute. That's me as well. That's me as well. That's me as well. So we've got lots of older generation who are just coming out now, aren't they? Yes. They really Helen Davies: are. They really are. And, and it's really quite a big thing for people. And, you know, it doesn't stop there when you actually find out you are, there's also a sense of loss of what could have had happened and didn't, or what should have happened, for example. So there's a grieving process with it too, because you suddenly think if I had help, what would have my life been like? You know, so that that can also happen as well. And yeah. So it can be a tricky one and sometimes it can feel like it gets worse before it gets better. Because also having a diagnosis isn't the same as actually having support. You know, you you once you know where your specific issues are, then you can target that to try and get the support that you need. So, actually, the diagnosis does one thing, but, actually, you're then on a journey to try and think about what things would help you specifically. Yeah. I I often think I don't know if this is the Joanne Lockwood: wrong way or right way of looking at it. I I think if you look at our prehistoric evolution, when when was writing and mathematics a requirement in in, you know, living in in those times? You know? I think, well, surely the weird ones are the people who who can read and write and spell. Because that's that's kind of a learned behavior. And who says being able to, be able to read and write is is is our human norm? Communication, obviously, is. But, you know, we have people who are artistic. They cave paint. We have people who are accurate. They could throw a spear straight. We have people who are good at nurturing. We have people who are good at this. And I think society is trying to create these these constructs of normality. Mhmm. And, again, we're trying to fit people into these little boxes. And, again, I'm not trying to get anything away from someone who has no divergent or ND or or whatever this whatever their their their superpower or super spiciness is. But we we we wanna fit people into defined spectrums of things rather than to say that, okay. You you you don't read about that great, but, hey. Wow. You're an amazing person doing this, this, and this, and this. We're taught we often miss, isn't it? Yeah. Helen Davies: And I think that's, you know, you hit the nail on head about inclusivity. What if we actually just talk about the difference is normal to be expected, you know, that actually we're looking at what people's strengths are, the things that they find tricky, you know, and that we're just kind of managing to get everyone to not just thrive, but, but also work in harmony with each other to, to do the thing, whatever it is they're trying to do at work or at home, or, you know, that, that they're actually it's embraced because, you know, the whole point Is about communities. That's what we did have in the katodes, you know, you know, working together towards a common goal and surely working towards together, like a common goal, like sustainability, for example, is definitely worthwhile rather than having many, many labels and advisory approaches. Yeah. I I suppose our humanity though is all Joanne Lockwood: about bias and stereotypes and our brain functions, how we process stuff. Isn't it? So as much as we could sit back here and be enlightened, I I know I know that I'm a judgmental person, the same as everybody else. It's It's it's what you do with that judgment that matters, isn't it? How do you put that judgment filter in? How do you stop it coming out of your mouth or stopping it occupying your brain? And you can have Helen Davies: unconscious bias for sure. I I guess, you know, yeah, it's it's having some awareness and that that you might have an unconscious bias that, you know, you that you can think about, you know, inclusivity and what you're actively doing to embody it in the workplace, for example, or the club. It doesn't always have to be just the workplace. There's plenty other organizations that we are involved with and institutions. So, yeah, I think it's just having awareness of those things and actually the function sometimes of these labels, which is the other need for it is that it's a heuristic. It's a way of describing things, you know, stereotypes are there for a reason, because there's a collection of things that come together that help in one word helped. You know, I say the word ADHD, then people get a rough idea that that person's probably impulsive, might be a bit late for meetings or, you know, they'll have a there'll be certain characteristics that people associate with that term. And so it does have a function in terms of that's perspective. One of the things I think is important though, is I guess, is how you also find each other, how you find your tribe. Because if you feel like you're the only person, you know, not just the only guy in the village, but the only ND in the village, then you actually, you can feel very alone and it can feel very difficult. And you almost feel like you're weird and not validated in who you are. One of the biggest outcomes that we had from our, coaching that we did over the last, you know, 6 months plus was that people felt validated and hurt. And that they actually, some of their ways of coping were actually completely fine and actually really good and useful for them to use. I mean, the other thing that I'm wanting to launch and we are launching from middle next month, so mid May, is we are launching something called the neurodivergent champion scheme. And I'm really excited about that because that's the whole idea is that you can have neurodivergent people who are championing happy to be visible. You can have allies who are happy to be visible, and that there's an emblem that goes with it, and they can put that on their web page, whatever their organization is. They can, like, put it on their footer if it's just an individual, you know, where wherever they want to display it. And then you can actually know that that person is, you know, ND or ND friendly, and if you can approach them, because then you actually know that you feel safe. Because like I said, a lot of people don't feel like they can be out and then they can actually got a safe place to go. So that's something that we're also gonna have a charter that people sign up to, but that's something we're launching, yeah, very soon, because I think it's important for there to be visibility and for there to be role models and for people you can approach when you're, you know, not sure in your journey. Joanne Lockwood: It's kind of like the, pronouns. It's kind of like Helen Davies: Yeah. The flag. And we've also got, Joanne Lockwood: the sunflower landyards and things as well, haven't we, where we get people so it's it's allowing people. It's signposting for allies, to be an ally, to know where your safe spaces are. Yeah. And to help people interact with you in a more positive way, I guess. Yeah. And the sunflower is great because, like, you can wear that the the Helen Davies: lanyards and everything to say, like, I need help or be aware that there's a, you know, there's an issue that might be a hidden disability. So I think it's, that's got a really important function. Many of my friends use that as well. I think the neurodiversion champion scheme is kind of akin, but different to that because it's actually saying, I'm proud. I'm neurodiverse. Come here. Joanne Lockwood: You can't see this, listeners. I've I've got my sunflower leggings on today, and these actually have a a charitable donation when you buy them as well to support the course. Very good. But but it yeah. It is. I I I think this is what kind of worries people who are kind of not in the club, you know, not in the, not in the inner circle, not in the echo chamber of EDI, and neurodiversity, and and gender diversity, whatever it may be with disability, is that that let's go back to this fear of getting it wrong. There's always there's always language. There's always protocols. There's always kind of signposting that goes on and say, hang on a minute. What about me? What about me? I've I've I've I've got needs as well. And it it's and it all seems to be as they and I'm sorry for the language, but pandering to the minorities is kind of the language. We hear this all the time, don't we? And it's Yeah. Yeah. It's not pandering. It's just going, how can I show you respect? How can I understand who you are? How can I what can I do to help? I think that's called equity, isn't it? Equity. Yay. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But the new generation, the gen z's, the gen alphas, as you said, they kinda got all this stuff. They got it off pat, and they they almost do it like a little bio is when they meet each other. They go, hi. I'm Jake. I'm I'm trans, non binary, neurodiverse, ADHD, and Asperger's, and this, and the other thing. And they oh, okay. Cool. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. And they often equate it Jo if you're if you're old enough to remember modems. No. Dial up the Internet. Yeah? Because there used to be this screeching noise in there. And I that was all this protocol of establishing how fast they could speak to each other if there's error correction noise kind of thing. And so that's what we're doing. Yeah. The younger guys are now sort of doing this little screechy noise to each other going, okay, I got it now we can now communicate. And Yeah. Us Gen Z, Gen X, boomers and later millennials are It's kinda still trying still trying to connect at 1900 and and the the ball trade's wrong. Yeah. Helen Davies: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of the language evolving as well. Isn't it over time, you know, which is why, you know, 30 plus in a, cool, cool in the back foot and beginning to catch up. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I'm starting to feel more in common with my mom these days. I I do Gen Z's because I've kind of got used to being with my mum. I mean, well, how old do I? I'm I'm not far off 60. So I've I've I've lived a fair bit and been to be perfect a few things. But yeah. And I I I find it refreshing, though, just the younger generation, the attitude of society, the way it's evolving. Mhmm. I I I kinda warm to it. It's it's where I wanna be. I I I wanna be only 50 years younger again. I'm gonna go. This is this this world is getting better every year. Yeah. No. I do love Helen Davies: the approach. And and when you speak to people, it's really great. And, you know, yeah, it it's it's really good. Not just the Brighton Bobbles that does that. No. No. So Joanne Lockwood: you you got as well as being a clinical director, Joanne 9 upwards, you know, one of the few in the country. So you got your own? Is it a charity, Practical Wisdom? Is it charity or CIC? It's not for Helen Davies: profit. So yeah, or everything is clamped back in. Yeah. Brilliant. Joanne Lockwood: And so do you wanna just give us an update about what what it what it does and how people can get hold of you and, and interact? Yeah. So we we Helen Davies: currently, do a couple of things. So we support people on the waiting list, and we can also support organizations as well with, particularly neurodiverse challenges. So we can run groups or do evergreen products that support things like managing attention and focus, planning and organizing. Like I said, the harnessing emotion, not many wanna doing that one. And also, you know, harnessing sleep, which is, you know, a little tricky to improve your sleep at times. So yeah. So we help with those. We've got a few other courses coming online as well. So there there's that aspect, which is about speed supporting people, individual neurodiversity individually to thrive. So that's like our ND thrive suite. And then obviously I do public speaking and awareness. I also do something that's for teams, which is about an organization trying to get the best harmony they Joanne, out of their teams that is neuroinclusive because actually when people aren't disclosing, if we make it a bit more neuroinclusive all around, they win, but also you can enhance productivity overall. So that that's kind of the natural rhythm thing we do. And lastly is the neurodivergent champions scheme. It's free, and you can be completely involved with that. If you, as an individual or your club or your organization is interested in that, and you could you're happy to sign up to the charter, then you're you're very, very welcome to be a part of that when we're launching that as from mid May. And you can contact us on hello at practical wisdom dot UK. There's no cut no co. So it's fellow at practical wisdom dot UK. And, yeah, we're more than happy to help you. Joanne Lockwood: You're on LinkedIn. So Helen Davis. That's Davis with an I e s at the end. That's it. Uh-huh. Written Davies, but pronounced Davis. Helen Davis. Practical wisdom, and superstar NHS above level 9, clinical direct. Helen Davies: Yeah. Who only got there because of all the help they got. So yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And you're gonna get caught out one day and, and you'll you'll hold your head in shame for being Yeah. Just you. Sorry. I'm just me. That's okay. Helen, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have a conversation with you today. It is been an absolute Jo, and so so Helen Davies: lovely to able to talk to you. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much. As we bring this Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, 1 episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.