--- title: "Valuing Your Health In Business" episode: 120 date: 2024-08-02 guest: "Heather McLellan" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/120-valuing-your-health-in-business audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-120/audio.mp3 --- # Valuing Your Health In Business Heather McLellan joins Joanne Lockwood to explore what happens when health and business collide, and why many entrepreneurs overlook planning for the one risk that can stop everything: their own capacity to work. Drawing on Heather’s background in occupational health and her personal experience of a rare stroke and a blood cancer diagnosis, they discuss the practical and emotional realities of being unable to work. The conversation covers financial vulnerability for solopreneurs, the confidence hit that can follow extended absence, and why self-employed people often return too fast and push too hard. They move into prevention and preparedness: delegating key tasks, ensuring others can access business-critical systems, considering legal and financial safeguards such as power of attorney, and having contingency plans that extend beyond IT disaster recovery. Joanne also shares how caring responsibilities for parents can create major business disruption even when the business owner isn’t the one who is ill. Finally, Heather outlines how a graded, phased return to work can reduce boom-and-bust cycles and support long-term sustainability, alongside foundational self-care practices like sleep, nutrition, and exercise. The episode leaves listeners with a clear message: valuing health is both a wellbeing priority and a business strategy. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome. - 02:00 — Healthcare professional, focused on vocational rehabilitation. - 04:14 — Periods without work impact both income, confidence. - 08:17 — Self-employed struggle to balance work and health. - 10:43 — Unpredictable health challenges, need for adaptability. - 14:27 — Ensure delegation and contingency plans for operations. - 19:29 — Couples working together in business have benefits. - 20:07 — Plan for vulnerability; power of attorneys important. - 25:25 — Life-changing impact of serious injuries on families. - 28:32 — Balancing work and family priorities in business. - 30:56 — Adjust work to prioritize self-care during illness. - 35:48 — Focused care, appointments, recovery, practical considerations. - 37:32 — Recovery should integrate work to aid return. - 42:24 — Consider delegation, reflection, and business growth strategies. - 43:42 — Transitioning to solo work for health reasons. - 48:16 — Fear of losing identity and existential crisis. - 52:48 — Maintaining control in healthcare for small business. - 53:42 — Quality of life now, not just later. - 56:59 — Expressing gratitude to listeners, promoting community engagement. ## Key takeaways - The significance of incorporating personal health planning into overall business contingency strategies. - Understanding the criticality of shareholder insurance and power of attorney in maintaining business continuity. - Techniques for managing the intricacies of personal and business-related stress. - The importance of creating adaptive work environments to support recovery from mental and physical health challenges. - Strategies for a graded and phased return to work post-illness. - The necessity of recalibrating work commitments to align with evolving personal health conditions. - Approaches to crafting a work-life that caters to individual well-being as much as business success. ## FAQs ### FAQ: Valuing Your Health in Business – Understanding the Balance Why is having a business contingency plan important? A business contingency plan is crucial because it prepares you for unexpected health situations that could impact your ability to work and run your business. It ensures that operations can continue, finances are managed, and your business remains resilient in your absence. What personal experience does Heather McLellan bring to this discussion? Heather McLellan shares her personal experience of being diagnosed with a rare type of stroke and blood cancer. Her story underlines the significance of being prepared and having contingency plans in place for such unforeseen health issues that may affect business operations. What measures has Joanne Lockwood taken in her own business in light of potential health issues? Joanne Lockwood has made her wife a shareholder and authorised her at the bank. They have also discussed the need for a power of attorney – legal arrangements ensuring decision-making capabilities when a person is no longer able to make decisions on their own due to ill health. How do Heather McLellan's professional insights translate to her personal health challenges? With 30 years of experience in occupational health, Heather has supported employees to remain in work after injury. When facing her own health challenges, she applied this professional knowledge to support both herself and her small business. What is the impact of not factoring personal health into business continuity planning? Failing to consider personal health and care dependencies in business continuity planning can lead to complicated, stressful situations during difficult times, affecting not just the business owner but the entire family and business operations. What is the advised approach to returning to work after an illness, according to Heather McLellan? Heather suggests a graded and phased return to work over a 4-week period. This approach eases one back into their work responsibilities, incrementally increasing hours and duties to avoid the boom and bust cycle often associated with returning too quickly. What sort of financial implications should business owners consider in case they can't work due to poor health? Business owners should think about how they will manage financially if they're unable to work. Heather stresses the importance of planning ahead, which includes the possibility of shareholder insurance and ensuring that there's a financial cushion to manage during times of health-related absences. How did Joanne Lockwood's personal health scare highlight the importance of self-care? Joanne shared her frustration with navigating the healthcare system during her health scare, emphasizing that it was a wake-up call to the necessity of investing in personal well-being and enjoying life outside of work. Why is it important for small business owners to plan for their own long-term health conditions? Considering that 36% of the UK workforce has a long-term condition that could impact work, it's crucial for small business owners to acknowledge the likelihood of serious health issues. Preparing in advance allows individuals and businesses to manage these scenarios better, minimizing disruption and stress. Can listeners connect with Heather McLellan for more insights? Yes, listeners are encouraged to reach out to Heather McLellan via her LinkedIn and on her website at hkm22.com for more information and insights into occupational health and strategizing for health contingencies in business. For more information about discussions like these, visit the Inclusion Bites podcast at Inclusion Bites Listen, and don't forget to subscribe to engage further in creating an inclusive society. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 120 with the title valuing your health in business. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Heather McLennan. And when I asked Heather to describe her superb she said that she has now experienced challenges of work and health from both sides of the fence, both as a professional and also her own personal experiences. Hello, Heather. Welcome to the show. Hello, Heather McLellan: Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. It's very exciting to be here with you today. Brilliant. Well, we we met a few months ago at Joanne Lockwood: a networking speaking event, and, yeah, we got chatting. So, yeah, I've been looking forward to this since we met. So valuing your healthy business, and as you say, in your superpower, you've experienced, should we say, poor health or or health that's impacted you in your own life, but also you you advise small business owners and help them recognize how important their health is in their business. So tell us a bit more. Yeah. So it's probably best to to take you back to Heather McLellan: the beginning of my career. So I'm a health care professional by training, and I worked from very early stages in what's known to many people as occupational health. So working for large organizations initially at the beginning of my career as part of an occupational health team supporting employees who were injured and supporting their managers to help support them to return to or remain in work. And something we call vocational rehabilitation is the fancy terminology, but really enabling people to stay in work. Because most people do want to work, and it's come it's actually very good for us, which I'm sure we'll get into. So I've been doing that for almost 30 years. But 5 years ago, I also have my own experience of of ill health and some interesting diagnosis. And I've had to really put all my professional knowledge into play for myself and reach out to many of my colleagues to help me and support me in the same process of of remaining in work. And I was running a small business at the time, so it was especially interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've Joanne Lockwood: I've worked for myself. I've been a solopreneur for, like, 1998 is when I first went out into the proper wide world, but I was freelancing probably 3 or 4 years before that. So I haven't had a full time paid job Mhmm. For an employer since 1994. I think that's that's that's 30 years, isn't it? 30 years. Wow. Yep. Blimey. No wonder I'm, well, I'm not turning great, but no wonder no wonder I'm stressy sometimes. Yeah. So I was always conscious very, very hyper aware that if I wasn't working, I wasn't earning. Yes. And I'm I'm not one of these people that stands up there and says, I've never had a day off sick in my life. I I value the time when I can't work and I need to take some time off. I'm not stoic and say, I'm gonna soldier through this for the sake of it. But it is a worry, isn't it? Not having that safety net. Yeah. So I think what's really interesting for us as small business owners is that there's several Heather McLellan: layers to that. In that, if you're not able to work for a period of time, if you are the main person who delivers your business services, if you really are a solopreneur, you are not generating an income. You are not keeping your your funnel full of potential new leads, then that's going to potentially reduce your personal income if you don't have the right reserves in place. And then, of course, if anyone listening to this has had any significant period of time off, we're talking maybe anything longer than 3 or 4 weeks. Very quickly, that can have a very negative impact on your self confidence, your esteem. And, actually, you can go into a bit of a downward spiral, which in itself becomes harder and harder to pull yourself out of and and believe you can get back to where you were before. So the there's a financial cost, but there's also a heavy personal cost if things don't go well. Yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: I've had a I suppose over the last 10 or so years, I've had couple of things that have gone wrong. So I've had I had a strangulated hernia in my belly button, which went a bit which I had to have emergency surgery on, and that took about 6 weeks to recover. Yep. I had double pneumonia 1 Christmas, and that took about 6 to 8 weeks to fully get back on back on track again. And and recently, I've had hair transplants and those in in their own right to take some doubt. And I've had my gallbladder removed. And Yep. Those sort of things. When you've had that kind of surgery that takes anesthetic, those kind of invasive procedures, they are 6 feet recovery, aren't they? And it's, Yeah. So it's really interesting when you kinda Heather McLellan: look at the the big picture and, you know, some statistics and stuff out there that actually most periods of absence. And and, obviously, a lot of the statistics are based on people who are employed. So there is there is a difference, I believe, which you we'll come back to, I'm sure. In that the average kind of time off sick is less than 4 weeks. But if you are having surgery, you're right. You know, it's normally gonna be 6 weeks or more. And that can be a really interesting time because you know that you need to take the time to recover to ensure you get the best recovery and the best result from what you've had done. And depending on what's going on, depends on how many other appointments you've got to attend, what rehabilitation you might need. And it's it's it is all consuming, and that's important to say that if we're off sick for a period of time, actually, that's about our full time job becomes us looking after ourselves and our recovery. That should be our main focus. But that's quite hard if you're also running a business at the same time and trying to keep the wheels turning on that as well as family life potentially in the mix. You know? There's a lot there's a lot going on. Yeah. One thing I noticed, Joanne Lockwood: and this is my anecdote on this, is that when I was in the midst of the the procedure, the the lead up, the, oh oh my word. I'm feeling poorly. I'm feeling really rough. I need to get this sorted. In that in that sort of traumatic element of that those instance, I found that I was completely focused on what was going on with me, not with other things. And it was one of the ways I sort of said to people that, I knew I was getting better because I was getting bored. Yes. And it was almost like before when I was in this trauma zone, I wasn't getting bored. My brain was saying fixed self, and it just wasn't capable. You know? I wanted to sleep. I wanted to relax. I couldn't do anything, couldn't focus, couldn't concentrate, couldn't even watch telly. And then all of a sudden, ah, I'm bored. I wanna watch telly. I wanna do stuff when I get up. Isn't it interesting? Told me when I was ready. Yeah. That's right. And I Heather McLellan: think that's very true. You know, we we have that inherent wisdom that we know that we need rest. We know that we need recovery. And now it is all consuming, and we can't really process and deal with other things, which also makes us, you know, potentially quite difficult to live with in these phases. Yeah. It's and I think that's the challenge for small business owners is that if you can feel the pull of your client customer base, any financial concerns, but you know that you need to spend time on yourself, you find yourself conflicted in that period. And it becomes more and more difficult to do a good Jo, and at the same time, you're not looking after yourself adequately either. And if anything, I'll say the big difference between working with people who are employed versus self employed is that self employed people will probably hang on and keep working too long, and then try and get back to work too soon, and not allow themselves sufficient recovery or sufficient time to make a graduated return. We tend to think we wanna jump in. So as soon as you have that feeling of onboard, you'd wanna jump in completely and utterly back into work rather than giving yourself a a nice planned fate, what we call phased return to work. It's Joanne Lockwood: well, I mean, we're talking here about, I mean, I the examples I use were physical. We've also got to consider other dimension as well, the the the mental health needs and other things that can also disrupt us and our well-being. Yeah. And those are often unseen, aren't they? They are. And I think it is really important to think about, Heather McLellan: yeah, physical health and mental health. Huge crossover. You know, hopefully, gone are the days where we think these things are separate. They are definitely not. 1 impacts the other significantly. But also the unseen and often unacknowledged things like adverse life events. So if you had a significant life events, that makes it much harder to cope with day to day living. And then if you also have a mental and or physical health condition on top of that, again, it's even harder. So those are the things that we hear about all the time that are considered trauma. They they are normal life, bereavements, marriages, moving house, births, all those things that are part of normal human living. But they are events that can impact our capacity to cope and even more so if our capacity is already limited by other factors in our health. So what can we do Joanne Lockwood: to plan for this? I mean, obviously, some things you can plan for because you know they're gonna happen or because you're you're they're either elective or they're Yeah. You've been waiting for 8 months on the on the waiting list to get something done about it. Yeah. But many many times we don't have the luxury of of knowing what's what's around the corner. And that that is one of the stresses as a small business owner myself, solopreneur, that there's always in the back of your mind, what if I can't? Yeah. Yeah. What if I can't pay my rent, my mortgage, whatever it is, or be put food on the table because I can't earn. Yeah. That so Heather McLellan: that's one of the things that I've really been pulling together over the last few years from my, say, pulling together professional experience and personal experience. Because now you can't plan, particularly. You can't predict. You know, you may have some risk factors that mean you're more at risk of certain illnesses or injuries than somebody else, in terms of, you know, genetic factors and predisposing factors. And also what we've just saying about adverse events in life or a huge volume of extreme life events happening does make you a little more susceptible to things happening, but you can't plan for it. And, of course, what could happen could be vastly different. You could have a broken ankle, which has a very clear treatment plan, surgical plan, and recovery time frame, or you could have something much more nuanced, maybe a mental health condition or a neurological condition, which is gonna be much harder to manage and predict and and need a totally different approach. But what I actually help small business owners do is is try and create an overarching plan around, this kind of three parts. So it keeping a business and life flowing. So looking at your financial position in general, your legal position in general, setting that up as best you can for life's eventualities. And then also considering so if you became ill or injured, how would you handle that? How would you handle it in your business, and how would you handle it in your personal life? And, of course, the outcome is different for everybody. But then you've created your own I had a conversation with somebody the other week. And we all like, you're basically creating your own insurance plan. It's insurance, but not as you know it. It's not the type that you get off the shelf. That might be part, you know, financial shelf. That might be part of your plan to have some financial security, to have some legal security, but actually to have an overarching plan that says, right, if something happens, this is the broad brush of how I'm gonna handle it. At least Joanne give you some reassurance and can give your family or colleagues reassurance that there is a plan if things go wrong. Yeah. That that's that's the challenge, isn't it? It it Joanne Lockwood: it's the risk management, isn't it? Risk management, I don't know what you're saying. Management. Heather McLellan: Yeah. And there's always vulnerabilities. And I say this, you know, when I speak in front of small business owners that if you are a solopreneur, there's obvious vulnerabilities. You can't account for every possibility, and and you can't actually necessarily pull somebody else into your business if you get ill. But planning for those vulnerabilities and saying, well, I can't actually do anything about that. I can't do anything about it right now. Might be something you plan to implement in the future. Or it might be, well, I have to accept that if I can't work, there'll be no income coming into the business. There'll be no income coming into my home. Therefore, I need to have these sorts of reserves. Right? My plan is I need to sort out some reserves. Same with things like health insurance or cash plans for health cover and things like that. He's been looking at that and going well. Okay. What have I got? What what would I need? What would my priority be now? And and think about it. I mean, I'm Joanne Lockwood: a solopreneur, and I I've also been the principal and owner of of a small business. So Mhmm. You have 20 people, million, 2,000,000 turnover, clients, cash flow, VAT returns, all of the stuff you end up doing as a small business. Yes. So it's not just my inability to to function or be be present, but it's also what I have to do. So authorize the payroll. May often principles are involved in sales or in production or some element of the business that is dependent on them, and it's not just their livelihood they're worried about. It's also the livelihood of the people who work in the business as well. Yes. Yes. That's right. And I think one of the Heather McLellan: things that we also talk about is looking at the operations of the business in terms of, actually, I think and this is quite common, isn't it? Small business owners. Even as a business grows, there's maybe certain tasks that we hang on to that still only are done by the business owner or the principal, as you call them. And that is one of the vulnerabilities because it just carries on like that because it's been like that from the beginning. So I think it's important to have some intentional plans around creating, you know, what would be called from a business point to use some kind of contingency plans ensuring and this is one of the most common examples that I use is, can anyone else access the bill the bank accounts? The business bank accounts? So that if you were incapacitated in a way that meant you couldn't run the payroll, you couldn't pay the associates that you have, you couldn't pay suppliers, that somebody else could do that for a period of time. And even if it was restricted, it could be done. And I think that's about finding this the the stage, isn't it, as a small business owner at which you can start delegating even if it's outsourcing some of those things. Mhmm. Or if you've got trusted members of the family that you would appoint to do those things if you were incapacitated. It's it's taking the opportunity to think about that when things are good rather than waiting until it's all gone belly up and other people are left worrying about it when you're in the hospital. Not probably not caring at that point. No. Because there are many situations where Joanne Lockwood: you have no forward notice Exactly. Joanne accident or a very rapidly developing health care Yes. Development. During COVID, we saw people go from relatively healthy to ventilators in a few days. And it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, one of Heather McLellan: the reasons that I've created these services is that I was running a national rehabilitation company at the at the time I was diagnosed, which was in 2019. And I was diagnosed as having had a rare type of stroke swiftly followed by being told I'd got a rare type of blood cancer. And I was kind of using all my professional knowledge to try and manage my own hours and tasks, and and we have done some preparatory delegation work because the business was growing. So I was looking to start to enable some of my team to take on more duties simply because the business was growing and it made sense. But it didn't have it all in place. And it was actually in COVID in 2020 that we'd been going through an audit process for making sure that we were putting all our governance structures in place. And that it started before COVID. It ended up taking longer than it should have done because of COVID. And one of the people in that said, so, Heather, have you got a written business contingency plan? I'm like, no. I'm living it. I am just I'm living it. You know, here I am. I've had some serious diagnoses which have led to all sorts of challenges. And then we've gone into a global pandemic. And at the time, we provided rehabilitation to people in their homes. People who've been seriously injured with multiple multiple injuries from car accidents and workplace accidents and things like that. Suddenly, of course, we weren't supposed to go into anyone's homes. So I'm like, no. Of course. No. Well, I wasn't a big enough business to have thought about having a contingency plan because you're so busy building the business and trying to keep it running and just trying to keep up with yourself that we often haven't thought about these things. And the the saving grace really was that we had started doing a little bit from a business growth point of view. And I was able to delegate things over, but I was also able to delegate. I was still conscious. I was able to communicate. I was able to do those things. So, yeah, it's very interesting. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I've my wife now works with me in the business, Marie. Mhmm. And very early on when I set up a limited company and with the accountant, they suggested that I mean, there's there's there's 2 sides. 1 is 1 is their sort of business protection suggestion was that they make her a share I make her a shareholder and an authorized at the bank and, you know, could speak on behalf of the business. So that that was before she joined the business. And then, obviously, now she's within the business. She has access to all the all the business side. Yep. And it it's it's it is reassuring to know that you haven't got to do everything in I'm not saying Marie could just deal with everything immediately, but at least she can speak to the accountant. She can speak to the bank. She can have these conversations with us before. There's no power of attorney in place at the moment. You know, we keep talking about setting a power of attorney. Yeah. But being able to have that contingency I remember when I think it was my gallbladder. I was I was working on my own at that point, but I had a VA. Yeah. I was able to messenger on WhatsApp and just said, look. Going to hospital, having an operation, need to clear my diary for at least the next week, and then I'll I'll we can chat once I've come out of surgery and things are happening. So Mhmm. It was just it's it's the now and next, isn't it? You gotta try and think about. Yeah. And I think it's very interesting as well when you've got a couple Heather McLellan: who are working together in a business. In in some ways, it's good because it's easier if you like to to have somebody else as a shareholder and or give them permissions, you know, with the bank and things like that. And I, especially, because if one of you is taken ill, the other one's also dealing with your family life and your home life, not just the business. Jo, actually, if you've thought about it and you've discussed it and you've got something written down that if if this happens, x should happen. If this happens, y needs to happen. That means that person could go and get that document or from the computer or having Jo, okay. I know we spoke about this. We've got a plan. But the other side of it is that you're also still quite vulnerable because it's still contained with within a household. How about you just mentioned about power of attorneys? I do need to I'm not a financial adviser. I'm not a legal adviser. But having gone through all this process that I've learned quite a lot about some of these things and that you can have a personal power of attorney for your health and for your finances, but you can also have one for your business. Because that, again, is important because that accounts for if you were taken ill to the point where you weren't able to communicate. Jo you were unconscious for a period, and that gives somebody else the ability to deal with your work, your business. Because the other interesting thing I discovered was that unless you have made alternative arrangements, if you actually died, your business would pass to your next of kin automatically, not to a business partner if you had one who wasn't a next of kin. And now that might be okay if your next of kin is the person who's in the business with you, but if they're not, that might be the last thing they want, is to suddenly find themselves responsible for your business and dealing with its affairs as well as having lost you. So there's there are many things that are worth having conversations with the right financial people and the right legal people to set things up in the way you would want them to be processed in the event that you were incapacitated mentally and cognitively and where you actually died. That reminds me Joanne Lockwood: of a story of a long standing friend of mine. His wife sadly passed away from cancer 10, 11 years ago, and they hadn't even even there's plenty of time to prepare, it wasn't a an overnight thing. It was a couple of years of of going through treatment. They still didn't identify the fact that who was going to inherit his wife's shares. And Yes. Those shares in the business passed to their children, not to him. They thought because she held them independently in her name. Her children inherited them, not him. So suddenly, he's got 2 children owning a considerable chunk of of a multi multi million pound business with other shareholders that suddenly had new significant shareholders in the business who had no experience in that business or no willing to be part of it. So he he had to get his business to buy them out, They should have So there is also a thing called, Heather McLellan: shareholder insurance, which means you can insure the business so that in the event that that happens, the business kind of the other shareholders can afford to buy out the people who've inherited. Mhmm. Because that's ultimately probably what you want and probably what they want. But if nobody has discussed the value of it or how that process happens beforehand. Again, it's just an extra complication that somebody who's already bereaved and traumatized is having to to deal with. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And and it's all these things are, with hindsight, obvious. But in in this emotional turmoil where people, they tend to avoid conversations that are painful or awkward or I don't wanna talk about death or really interesting because, you know, much of Heather McLellan: this is things that I've learned through through my process in hindsight. I'm fortunate enough to be here to be able to do that. And some of these things Jo, we'll get on in a moment. You know, some of the medical aspects of it and returning to work and all that sort of thing is that's my bread and butter and and helping people actually do the things they need to do again. But you discover all this along the way. And that the conversations I've had with people over the last 12 months or so as I've been developing this, a lot of people, I don't really want to think about it. And there is a little bit of a mentality, well, it's not gonna happen to me. A lot of us think it's not gonna happen to us. But just to share some interesting numbers. So the UK workforce, over 36% of the workforce at the moment have a long term condition that at some point in their life will affect their ability to work. So that's the third of everybody of working age that you meet. We now know the incidence of things like cancer is rising, has been rising for a long time. It's now 1 in 2 people will get cancer at some point in their lives. So we have to acknowledge now. We have to get our heads out of the sand and say, this is likely to happen to you or a loved one or somebody in your business if you have another business partner. Something is likely to happen. And rather than ignoring it, we start thinking about it and talking about it when we are calm and not in that phase of of trauma and stress. It's gonna be a lot easier to make some sensible plans as best you can. We can't plan for everything as we've said now than wait until the worst happens because it does feel like a disaster when it happens. You know, whatever happens, it will feel like a disaster. However big or smaller is, the initial stages of what happens are really difficult to deal with. Jo, yeah, I do want to encourage people to not sweep this under the carpet. Do have these conversations, you know, about what would you do or how would it be handled if this happened. You know, I said most people actually take off maybe 2 or 3 weeks for something, and then they're back at work, and it's no big deal. But if it's something bigger and more significant, it can be life changing in so many ways. And it has I've always talked about it to my previous businesses that we meant we've dealt with people who had had serious injuries. It was life changing for them, and it was life changing for the people around them, their colleagues, but their families big time. And you might find I was talking with one of my some of my clients yesterday about if the person that's been injured, but then their partner has to give up work to look after them or has to take even 3 months off work to help look after them. The impact on the whole family and the dynamics, I had actually this reminded me a client a few years ago whose husband, she was ended up in ITU, an intensive care unit for well, I think it was several weeks. But in the 1st week, they didn't know how long she was going to be in intensive care. So he took time off because they had 4 children. But then his employers at the end of the 1st week were saying, well, how long is it going to be? And he said, I have no idea. My wife's in intensive care. She's on a ventilator. I don't know how long she's going to be there. The next thing is he's made redundant or he's, you know, told that he can't have endless leave, and he loses his job. So not only have you now got somebody seriously ill with no known time frame for when they're going to be recovering, let alone returning to work. She was actually self employed. She was part of a family business, but her husband had then lost a secure Jo, which kept the family functioning financially. And it Joanne unravel very quickly, and it has this massive ripple effect. I don't want to frighten people, but we do need to think about these things as best we can and plan if we can. Yeah. I mean, the experience Maria and I Joanne Lockwood: had in this was, we all 4 of our parents at the time were going through their own health journey. So we became, you know, part of Sandwich Generation Yeah. Caring for elderly parents. So we it wasn't us that was affected, but our parents, which and it there was at one point in time, each parent was in the same hospital in different wards on different floors with different conditions to deal with. And so we were obviously having to sort out their their affairs and their challenges, pick them up, drive them in, you know, do all the various stuff as as as, supportive children would do. And then regretfully and unfortunately, Marie's mom passed away, so we had to deal with all of the the the the out come of of that with her Marie's dad, with the funeral arrangements and the that. And my mom had to cope with my dad going into a care home. So we had all of these kind of different different situations with each of our respective parents Yes. All at roughly the same time. And it took our eye off the ball for probably 3 to 6 months in some way Yes. Dealing with these kind of things. So even though that wasn't a health issue for ourselves, it was a care dependency issue for parents. And and that that could yeah. As you get older, that's more likely to happen as well, isn't it? Yeah. Heather McLellan: That has really come through actually in the last few months when I've been talking about these services that people are saying, well, yes, we are you know, we're primarily saying, let's look after yourself as a business owner. But, of course, the reality is if you're in that sandwich generation, especially with children and parents or, you know, siblings, then it could actually be somebody else's situation that means you need to step back from your work. Because at the end of the day, you know, our families take priority over our work. You should you know, hopefully, they should and they can. And if if we've made these sorts of plans for ourselves, we can use the same kind of plan to step back and take time out when we need to put our families first as well. And, Jo, yes, although these things are talking about if you or if you were injured or ill, the reality is that a lot of the things that you can apply would you'd be able to apply in that scenario as well. Yeah. Again, I said this earlier about mentioned the word Joanne Lockwood: hindsight. And Mhmm. You just a lot of these things come out of nowhere. And what you're saying here is it's about as a business owner, you're looking at all of the things you worry about in business. That's that continuity is often forgotten about. You think about disaster recovery, we'll get our IT system protection, we'll have our backups done, we'll have our have a UPS sort of if the power goes down, we'll have if if things go wrong, we'll go to a Jo working space and set up office there. I know. Got all those. What if I go what if I go wrong? What if I go wrong? I put that into my plan, had I? No. Heather McLellan: Exactly. And that's one of the things that I talk about is that, actually, you are your biggest liability. We protect our businesses externally. I've been on the phone to my insurers about some stuff today, checking some things. You know, you've got insurance in place. You've got those plans. You've got those backups. But what about the backup for you if you go down? And that's that's you just talking about from a business point of view. Well, what do we do if our business leader goes down? But if you are the leader and you're the one going down, you're not gonna be worried. Well, you might be worrying about your business at the same time, but you're gonna have more important things to deal with too. You can't be the one managing the disaster in the business because you're the one who's dropped out of the business. So the first part of what we look at is trying to keep your business flowing and your home life flowing. And then we look at, well, how do you actually deal with the period where you need to take time off sick? And one of the things I talk about is slowing down or stopping. If you have some advanced warning, I. E. You think you're becoming unwell or you get a diagnosis, but it's not taken you out completely from work, you have some time. You might still not know what time frame, but you have the opportunity to look at your work and go, well, how can I modify this? Reduce my hours, change my task, delegate. How can I reduce the workload on myself so that I can increase the time on my care for myself during this period? That would be ideal if we had some some kind of advanced warning. And, actually, that's kind of what happened to me because I started feeling unwell over a period of time. It wasn't a particularly dramatic stop. I became more and more unwell and struggling more and more over a period of time and eventually took some time out. Probably long later than I should have done because I was trying to run a business. But there is the other scenario where you will get stopped by something you have absolutely no warning. Could be an accident. It could be a sudden illness. And that means that you are, you know, a unidentified date you are out of action from. And then you have to wait for treatment. You have to wait for conclusions. You have to wait on all sorts of other people, which we're not used to doing as small business owners either. We used to being in control to tell you what's gonna happen. So at that moment, you might have no idea whether you're gonna need 3 weeks off or 6 weeks off or 6 months. Yeah. And what state you'll be when you come Joanne Lockwood: back because the world would have changed a lot in 6 months. The business landscape, will you have a business to come back to? Will you have a house to come back to? There's a whole load of things in there that that also is gonna impede your ability to recover because of the stresses and and the decisions you'll be making. You'll be rushing yourself back. Yeah. Whether you're not a full fitness, making making poor judgment decisions maybe, or making short term decisions rather than long term decisions. Yeah. And also, I mean, depending on what's happened to you, Heather McLellan: you know, there's a lot of questioning of your own identity and who you are. And that happened to me. So we we met through the professional speaking association. And one of the reasons that I joined that is because after my illness, I was capable of speaking. My stroke that I had didn't affect me physically in that way, but I really lost my confidence. Completely lost my confidence because I didn't know who I was for a while. I didn't know if I was going to be capable of the things I used to do. I didn't know how the future was going to look. And I used to do a lot of speaking at conferences to promote the business. And I was speaking about supporting people's rehabilitation and getting them back to work. And I remember one of my team at the time saying to me, so, Heather, are you ready to kinda get out there and speak at conferences again? It must have been about 2022 because in person conferences were starting up again a little bit. And I think that I did my first online conference, and then the the the face to face ones were coming up. And I was just like, I can't do it. I can't do it because I can't stand on the stage and talk about return to work when I don't know whether I'm doing a very good job of it on myself. And it's totally changed my perception of my identity. That's been a part of the recovery, which, you know, is meanders and all over the place because that's quite a lot of soul searching and things that you do. And you also, if you've had something like this where you literally it makes you take stock of your life, it is the proverbial wake up call. You do also have to go through that process of going, well, what do I want to do with the rest of my life? Am I doing the right kind of work? Do I want to be in this business? Do I want to be doing this? Or do actually I need and want to be doing something else? So it can open up a massive other Joanne of worms. So you Joanne Lockwood: talk about putting risk management in place. Let's call it risk management. That's that's that's what we talk about here, either through insurance, through duplication, through replication, through planning, through passwords in a safe somewhere. Heather McLellan: Yes. How do you help people when they are Joanne Lockwood: trying to return back Yeah. After a period of extended absence or disruption? How do you work with them in those ways? Heather McLellan: Yeah. So you're actually that, you know, that's the kind of the bit that I love because I think all the things you've just talked about are about good business management. And maybe it's a case of seeing those as risk management for you as well as the business rather than just seeing it as the business. But actually, when you've been and had a period of time off sick, because the focus has to come back onto you away from the business. Hopefully, we've done all the right risk management for that, and it's taking care of itself. And if it's not taking care of itself, you've done everything you Joanne. And you know you did everything you Joanne, and it is what it is. And you'll have to sort that out later. But it has to then toke turn to you and the focus on you and the time and the care that you need for recovery. And, of course, that then brings in practical matters like attending appointments. So it takes Joanne order amount of time to attend appointments at hospitals unless you live next door. Parking, parking charges, queues, waiting times, then you start waiting for a point with the, you know, consultants usually running behind. Then if you're lucky, you might have several appointments in the same hospital in the same week with different departments who then don't speak to one another. So the focus has to be your initial care, your treatment, and your recovery. Then that has to be about, as you said, actually said before it, you that point where you start realizing you've got some capacity I'm I'm starting to feel better. What should I be doing more of initially? And they're usually more self care things. So the the nice tabs that fell off when you had to do the really serious, maybe treatment and rehabilitation. So it's simple things that we all hear about and we all talk about, but they become even more important. Good sleep, rest, nutrition. You know, good nutrition is the building blocks of physical repair in the body. Good sleep and rest can be so beneficial for mental health. Exercise for both mental and physical health. These things are the building blocks that we often can neglect. We think we'll get around to that next week, next month. But part of that recovery period needs to be about putting those things back in first, then bringing in or maybe I'll think about doing a little bit of work. And the key to the return to work, there's a couple of things that happen and they're both to do with a 100%. There's 2 groups of people and you probably don't know which one you'd be in until it happened to you. Although I think we have a tendency as self employed to be one way or the other of it. So quite a lot of people think you've got to be a 100% better before you go back to work. And that might be considered a cultural norm within an organization if it's not being well communicated that there's a supportive process for returning to work. The problem with that is it can lead to you taking too long off work. As we also know, the longer people are out of work and off work, the harder it is for them to return because of the spiral in mental and physical health. So waiting until you feel a 100% ready and like you did before you were ill it's not really practical or realistic. And it may you may never feel quite the same as you did before. But then there's the other side of the coin where people go, well, I need to be back at work. And they go from 0 to to a 100 overnight from doing absolutely nothing saying, well, I've got to go back to work. I'm going back on Monday, and I'm working a full week, and I'm gonna expect I can do everything. And that's usually too much. And then what happens is you end up in a boom and bust cycle. If you do too much, you get disappointed in yourself. You feel that you let down your colleagues. Everyone else also gets confused because then you have to go off sick again. When you enter into this very difficult Jo yoing period. So both of those actually can be avoided by having what we call a graded and phased return. So this is literally taking the approach that say you did want to return over a period of 4 weeks. I'm gonna break this down very, very simply, but it doesn't illustrate it. But and you normally work 40 hours a week. It may be that in the 1st week, you plan to do 10 hours a week. And you plan to do it from home. And you plan to do it 2 days a week for 5 days. Or you might say, well, I know I'm gonna need a rest by Wednesday. So you might say I'm going to do 2 and a half hours, Monday, Tuesday, take Wednesday off, and then I'll do 2 and a half hours, Thursday, Friday. Then if that week goes well, the following week, you might say, well, I'm gonna do 15 or 20 hours. You can see where I'm heading with this. Then 3rd week, you build it up to 30 or so. And then the final towards the end of the 4th week, you're building up to your full hours. And you can also do that with the actual duties. So if you have some duties which are easier, either cognitively or physically, depending on the situation, you bring in the things that are easiest first to test yourself, give yourself a chance, give yourself a little bit of an ease in, and then you bring in those other duties as you go. And if it's been a physical thing, so my my background is as a physiotherapist and very much what we would be doing is building somebody's strength. So say you need to be able to lift things that weigh 25 kilos. In week 1, we'd be doing 5 kilos. In week 2, we'd be doing 10 to 15 kilos, and we'd literally be building up. And we talk about work tolerance and work conditioning. So you're using that period of rec you're still in recovery. You might still be managing pain, anxiety, and symptoms. You're learning to manage those. You're learning to manage the fluctuations in those and the ups and the downs, but you're also bringing back in the additional work elements and giving yourself the best chance of success. Because ultimately, what we want is a sis a return to work that's sustainable for the long term for you and for your business and for the people around you. And And, again, if we just bring into the this because a lot of Joanne Lockwood: a lot of the references you're giving there, in my mind, jump into physical type challenges. When we're talking about things like stress, poor mental health, bereavement, all those kind of things there. Yeah. Often, the the cause that got us there is gonna it hasn't gone away. And we put ourselves back in the danger zone straight away. So that's why it's really, really important to, look at what was causing Heather McLellan: It is. And that's really interesting, isn't it? Because if if the cause of the mental health were contributing factors, because again, there's lots and lots of factors in these things. If the contributing factors were, say say, family bereavement, then you can't change it. It wasn't directly related to your work, but it is gonna affect your ability to work. Of course, it is. You're human. And therefore, some compassion for yourself about how much you can cope with, what situations you can deal with. You know, maybe that you don't don't answer the phone to start with. You know, somebody else does that or you do just things by email if you're finding it difficult to hold a conversation without becoming upset, for example. However, of course, if it's actually work that is one of the stress factors, then, of course, that does bring into question the whole picture of, well, how do we look at that going forward? And that is particularly interesting because if you run your own business and your source of your stress is primarily your work and your business, then there obviously needs to be some naval gazing and reflection about why is that and what can be done about that. And looking at the business as a whole and saying, well, why is this the case and how could that be better handled going forward? Is it that you need help delegating, bringing in a VA, bringing in an associate? Or in some cases, is it that it's actually got bigger than you really want to be handling? And, actually, that was my eventual decision. I had a team of associates, and I sound a bit accident prone here. But in 2023, I broke my ankle. I ended up in the hospital with pins and plates and stuff while still running said business. And I'd been sort of looking at the future of the business. I'd had a I've got a 2 year plan put together. And at that point, I just thought, you know what? I'm really finding it very hard to keep a handle on what everybody else is doing and keep myself well. And my my other conditions are long term and lifelong, so that I need to have a lifelong management strategy. So I actually decided that having a big team was not something that I wanted anymore for my future health and well-being associated with my work. So I chose to exit that business and go back to basically being a bit of a solopreneur, which brings its other challenges, but actually also means I can prioritize my needs, my day to day needs, and fit my work around that and vice versa rather than also having to contend with the extended impact of of a big team. So there are lots of things to think about, but it's still actually the the idea of having a graded return still applies and looking at tasks and activities that might cause additional stress. So actually, I have an interesting conversation I had with somebody last year with someone who was a call handler for emergencies, Not call handler. Sorry. But had to listen to the calls for emergency services. And they've returned to work supported by the workplace, returned to work part time, but with what we would class as a restriction of not listening to those calls because those calls were too emotionally difficult for that person following their particular situation. So that's one of the things that you would look at. We do what we call a job demands analysis, which can be physically a physical and cognitive in terms of do I have to be able to walk or climb stairs or drive a car? But also do I have to concentrate for long periods, handle difficult situations, deal with traumatic situations. And that would come into the equation there. Well, I can do this bit. I can manage that. I could write a report about x, but please don't make me go and deal with that difficult stressful situation over there. And it might be what we call a temporary restriction, just something you don't do initially, but you then might build back up to it. Or for some people, it might be a permanent permanent change. Mhmm. Yeah. It Joanne Lockwood: I'm just thinking about Denise, but it's on my own relatable experience. So, yeah, it it is. Because after you've had a significant change in your life through illness, through health, whatever it is, you do change your outlook as well, don't you? So it may be just a every framing of of expectations and What Heather McLellan: you expect of yourself back. What others think of you, what others expect you're capable of is really big. Yeah. You mentioned your own anxiety Joanne Lockwood: about going back onto stage Joanne so your own capability may never return. Jo you've got to think about if that's the fundamental underpinning of your business. Yes. Do you have to do a rethink? And that yes. It it's this could be a complete, yeah, life changing. Yes. It can Heather McLellan: be very, very pivotable. Pivotal. What's that? Yes. Pivotal. It can totally sweep the carpet out the rug out from under you, and you have to start again, which, again, you know, I mean, fascinating because I'm very much a believer in that our skills, our knowledge, our life experience is what we pull together. That's what I've been doing now to create something new. But there's loss in there, letting go of an old self. And sometimes it's also about removing yourself from a situation where, you know, if you were leading a particular style of business with a particular team of people, and you have fundamentally changed your approach to your life. But other people expect you to be the same leader, the same person, with the same approach that you were before, and you're just not. There's no longer a match between you and your business, and something has to change in order to be well for the longer term. And, also, I suppose if you're the Joanne Lockwood: kind of leader that lives on adrenaline and stress and 24 by 7, working all hours and propping it up and plugging holes Yep. And then suddenly you're not, that's potentially I mean, potentially, many business leaders are 3 people in terms of headcount, aren't they? So if you're if you're trying to reduce all of that impact, you're you're losing 2 people's input to the business in terms of it. You're you're seeing nowadays, plus worrying about it all night. Suddenly, you you say, I can't take this stress anymore. I'm and you've got hang on. Who's gonna if not me, then who? And it Yeah. Because you can't you know, somebody else is not gonna step in Heather McLellan: and do what you did because they don't own the business. No. But also the loss of identity there as well is that if if the if people manage without you, what is your role? They don't need you anymore. They replace you into some other means. So then you think, well, what what am what am I even here for? You know? So it can bring on quite a significant kind of existential crisis. And, actually, it was just one of the one of the questions I ask people to consider is who or what drives you in your business? Because hopefully, it's you in your driving seat. You controlling how much you work, when you work, how you work because of what you love. And you probably went into business because you love what you do. But if it's got to a point where actually and it could be other people, but it might be things like fear and anxiety. Is it actually fear of failing? Is it fear of not making enough money to to pay the rest of the team? Is it somebody else's expectations about what this business should look like and be like that keeps somebody working too hard too long, pushing themselves day after day, week after week thinking, we'll get there eventually. In 3 months, I'll be able to rest. In 6 months, I'll be able to rest. And I think if somebody's on a treadmill like that where they're not enjoying it, where there's fear and anxiety underlying their behavior, then that's a suggestion that there needs to be something looked at in the dynamics of the in the interplay between the business. And I'm talking more and more now actually when I talk to people about as a relationship. Your relationship between you, your health, and your business. Because if it's your business, ultimately, you want it to be working for you as well as for everybody else. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting. I had an Joanne Lockwood: epiphany probably 24, 20, 28 months ago, so two and a half years ago. Mhmm. Where I don't know. I don't know what it was. I just I sort of woke up and thought, hang on a minute. I'm 60 in a couple of years' time. And I thought, hang on a minute. If I if I just thought about it, I've and I sort of said to myself, I've got 15 years of what I would call good health left. 75. You have? Yep. It was a good age to say, I can do things till 75. And then I realized, you know, looking at my parents, looking at people around me, there's definitely a shelf at that at 75. There's a shelf every year when you get older, But there's a significant shelf in the in the seventies. And I thought, well, if I can if I wanna get to 75 and be able to do roughly what I do now in some shape or form, professional speaker, stand on stage, consult, whatever I do. I thought, I'm gonna have to change something because I can't wait till I'm 72 to make a change. Yes. My epiphany was I actually need to invest more in me, in my health, my wellness, my fitness, my diet Yes. Then I I'm in marketing. I was spending more on marketing than I was on me Mhmm. In my business. So that was kind of the epiphany. So I gave up drinking for for that and other reasons. Yeah. I started being more mindful about what I consume in terms of food, to try to bring my weight down. And I also joined a gym, personal trainer. So I started investing time in me because I'm actually the most important part of my business, and I wasn't investing in me at all. Absolutely. You are your greatest, most Heather McLellan: valuable asset. Yeah. But also your greatest risk if you're not looking after that asset. And I Joanne Lockwood: I had some health scares last August where I thought it was potentially a heart attack or something heart related. And I was fortunate enough that it wasn't, but I had ECGs. I had the full blood test. I had the full chest X rays. I've had ultrasounds. I waited for an MRI at the moment to to check something out. So I kind of came out of that feeling tick of, you know, all the major all the major things. There's no there's no shadows on the on my lungs. There's no heart. My ECGs are fine. I still got a niggly problem which which won't go away. But, yeah, it's it's now now I know it's not critical. Well, I think it's critical. But, yeah, it was a bit of a wake up call because Yeah. It is and also the the randomness of the surgical appointments. You know, I've I've just left that letter this morning. Jo my my my MRI is in 20 weeks time. It's like Mhmm. I've been I've been in agony on and off since last August, you know. And this is yet another almost 6 months before I even have a chance for a diagnosis, let alone a dream. And it's Heather McLellan: it's really interesting. I think, you know, small business owners, we're very used to being in control and and making decisions and getting on with things. And the the health care world is sadly not like that. You know, the resources just aren't there and things Joanne be very, very, very slow. The more that you're able to manage yourself and keep yourself well, and if you do have the ability to have things like private health care, then you can speed up some of those things. But, yeah, it's it's, brings to sharp focus as well the the tension between enjoying what you have right now, living the life that you have now, getting making time for the people that you love, the things that you love as well as work, because you probably love that too. And it's part of what you do it because you it's your passion, because you don't know what's around the corner. And you don't know what's gonna change, and you hope to make it to, you know, 75 or what have you. But, actually, there's no point in getting to 75 if you've you're exhausted and you're unwell and you've not enjoyed yourself and hoping that on the other side of your 75th birthday, you're really going to start living because we never know. We never know. And so I think there's there's a balance there between, you know, enjoying life, getting quality of life now within our working, you know, but I don't really like the word balance because I don't think there's ever a a point of balance. I think it's a negotiation. It's the dynamic thing of of managing your health and your work together. But it shouldn't be a battle. It shouldn't be a battle between your health and your work. It should be some harmony, flowing together, ebbs and flows of both and having enjoyment that's not work and enjoying your work. And then, you know, we can we could go on, but we're We could. Yeah. I would say one Joanne Lockwood: of the the eventually empowering things as a small business owner is you you you you don't have to work if you don't want to. But and I also balance that by saying the other side of that is you have to work when you don't want to as well. Yeah. It's you take the advantages of of having your flexibility, freedom to be Joanne your life, to say yes to things you wanna say yes to, say no to things you don't wanna say you don't wanna do. But also there's on the flip side, there's the situations that you end up having to do that you don't want to because you have to. And Jo I think you have to enjoy the freedom when you have it and recognize that the you're chained as well. Yeah. There's sometimes when you won't have that freedom, and then you'll have their Heather McLellan: way of trade off. And I think if anything, you know, can come out of this conversation for people listening is take a thing. Look at, you know, why are you in business? Is it working for you and your needs? Jo my one of my kind of daily mantras my for myself now is create work that works for me. Works for me on every level. Works for my health. Works for my, you know, stability. Works for my family situation. Works that it's working just as hard for me as I am for it and and my clients and being intentional about that. And I think it's quite easy, isn't it? Again, when you're certainly in the early days, you're pushing, pushing, pushing, trying to build up a business. Then it kinda gets its own momentum, finds its own identity, and it can run away with you. And it's at that point going, well, hang on. Why are we here? Why are we doing what we're doing? And is it really fulfilling the needs that I hoped it would when I set out on this journey? That's a great place to leave the conversation. Thank you. That Joanne Lockwood: is a good summary. So, Heather, that's been amazing. It's been really, really insightful. And, yeah, I can relate to much of it. And, you know, I have a story for virtually everything you were saying there. So, yeah, very powerful. So how can people get hold of you? Heather McLellan: So, the best, way to get hold of me is track me down on LinkedIn, which are my profile at Heather McClellan. And then, I have a website, which is hkm22.com. Hkm22 consulting. And, Yeah. I'm gonna run a variety of different services depending on what stage along this journey people might be might be at. And then I can be seen at various speaking events, online and in person, depending where people are. Thank you so much. As Joanne Lockwood: we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.