---
title: "Finding your courage and voice to speak out"
episode: 12
date: 2020-09-03
guest: "Madeline Black"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/12-finding-your-courage-and-voice-to-speak-out
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-012/audio.mp3
---

# Finding your courage and voice to speak out

Madeline Black joins Joanne Lockwood to talk about what it took to find the courage to speak publicly about being gang raped at 13, and how shame and fear kept her silent for decades. She describes how victim-blaming culture and gaps in societal and justice-system support can reinforce that silence, and why shifting responsibility back to perpetrators matters. Madeline reflects on the long-term impact of trauma, including disordered eating, suicidal feelings, anxiety and PTSD, and the gradual process of healing through support and therapy. She shares why stepping into the shame and telling the truth of what happened helped her reconnect with her sense of self-worth and authenticity. The conversation also explores why speaking out can be contagious: how public storytelling can create connection, inspire others to disclose their own experiences, and build empathy. They touch on online harassment, the increased risks of domestic abuse during COVID-19 lockdowns, and the need for workplaces and communities to create conditions where people can be heard safely.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Listen to the new UK podcast episode.
- 04:01 — Lacey clothing doesn't cause rape. Rapists do.
- 06:44 — Legally a victim, but don't feel weak.
- 10:18 — LinkedIn posts reveal issue of inappropriate behaviour.
- 14:41 — Gradual journey from silence to public advocacy.
- 18:26 — Powerful storytelling fosters empathy, strength, and connection.
- 19:39 — Embracing personal journey; accepting oneself amidst challenges.
- 23:25 — Terrifying experience speaking at prestigious event.
- 28:17 — Speaking out creates ripple effect of inspiration.
- 30:57 — Supporting Scottish organisation helping victims of abuse.
- 36:06 — Reflection on changes to travel routines and norms.
- 39:53 — Travelled to Newcastle and Amsterdam, return during pandemic.
- 41:21 — Navigating hardship, longing for normality, facing risk.
- 44:30 — Book released in 2017, still gaining opportunities.
- 47:40 — Exciting guests lined up, share your story.

## Key takeaways

- The shift in social interactions and the heightened sense of mistrust in the post-COVID-19 world.
- The importance of safeguarding personal space and the complexities of caring for vulnerable family members.
- The societal issue of abuse prevalence and its far-reaching impacts on individuals.
- The role of personal acceptance and storytelling in overcoming shame and mental health struggles.
- The impact of COVID-19 on those in toxic home environments and the urgent need for support systems.
- The power of speaking out against harassment and the gradual process of finding one's voice.
- The significant influence of one’s voice in creating broad societal change and collective impact.

## FAQs

### What changes in social interactions have been observed due to COVID-19?

COVID-19 has led to a default position of mistrust among people, particularly due to concerns about mask-wearing, personal space invasion, and the potential impact of interactions on vulnerable family members. This shift has redefined how people engage in everyday activities like going to the cinema, shopping, and even new spending habits.

### How has the pandemic affected the victims of abuse and domestic violence?

The pandemic has led to an increase in domestic violence cases, with 16 women and 2 young girls murdered by their partners during the first three weeks of lockdown. Those in toxic home environments, including LGBTQ+ individuals, face heightened challenges. Remote working may exacerbate exclusion and mental health difficulties, and there's a growing concern for the need for refuge and support once lockdown eases.

### What personal experiences does Joanne Lockwood share in this episode?

Joanne Lockwood reveals her traumatic experience of being raped at 13, the ensuing years of fear and silence, and using anorexia, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse as coping mechanisms. She discusses the importance of overcoming shame and finding the courage to speak out, highlighting her work with organisations like Women's Aid and Rape Crisis, and sharing her story publicly through platforms like the Forgiveness Project.

### What is the significance of the conversation about abuse, victim blaming, and rape culture in society?

The conversation underscores the pervasive issue of victim blaming and rape culture, where survivors are often judged based on their clothing and behaviour. It explores the detrimental impact of such attitudes on mental health and societal perceptions. Joanne and Madeline stress the importance of challenging these norms and supporting survivors in their journey towards healing and justice.

### How does Joanne Lockwood view the role of storytelling in overcoming trauma?

Joanne Lockwood emphasises the power of storytelling in building empathy, strength, and personal acceptance. Sharing her past openly has been liberating for her, and she believes that everyone has the strength to grow from their experiences. The ripple effect of her story has inspired many others to find their voice and courage.

### What impact did Joanne Lockwood's TEDx talk in Glasgow have?

Joanne's TEDx talk in Glasgow was a turning point where she felt immense pride and the potential to help others. She recounts how a young woman in the audience, who had been raped by her uncle, gained hope and courage from Joanne's story. The talk has had a profound ripple effect, enabling individuals to end years of silence and find their strength.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk That's. seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and of course, the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode twelve with the title finding your courage and voice to speak out. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Madeline Black. I met Madeline at an advent annual convention. The professional speakers in Coventry forward places. Madeline describes herself as someone who speaks out against sexual violence to end shame, stigma and the silence, and to help others find their courage and voice, too. I asked Madeline to describe her superpower and she said her voice and ability to speak out. So, hello, Madeline. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me

Madeline Black: on. Amazing. Thank you for joining

Joanne Lockwood: me. So, tell me, finding your courage and voice to speak out, what does that mean to. You know, for years, it was my

Madeline Black: shame that silenced me. I was so ashamed of my history, my own story, that I just assumed if people knew that they wouldn't want to know me, they would be horrified. They would look at me differently. But finding my voice to speak out is really stepping into that shame and not really worrying now what their opinion will be of me and speaking out anyway.

Joanne Lockwood: Shame is. Yeah. I've listened to a lot of Brene Brown talks, and she talks about difference between shame and vulnerability and all these other aspects. And shame can almost destroy people. Can't it really affect their mental health? Absolutely. It really took away my

Madeline Black: voice, my ability to speak, and it silenced me for years. It took me 35 years to share my story publicly. A long time, really. Shame is just a horrible, horrible thing to hold on to.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I still talk to many people who, for whatever reason, don't feel able to speak their own truth. We talk about this, bring your whole self to work, but there's still much of our personalities that we just don't feel able to bring to work. And we're so conscious about how people will see us negatively by sharing this inner secret, don't we? Absolutely. The fear of being

Madeline Black: judged by others is huge. And actually, I'm a psychotherapist as well. So the judgement is often really what we do to ourselves. The judgement is really coming from us. But then, sadly, also with stories of sexual violence, we're not supported by society because we have so much victim blaming and rape culture that doesn't help women or men to come out and share their stories either. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I see a lot of this and we still have these debates on the news and the press about the rights of often the woman, not always the woman, but often the woman who is not believed or there's doubt. Her credibility or their credibility is often questioned by the circumstance of how that occurred. Rather than seeing them as a person, they're seeing them as a person wearing certain clothes or in certain situations and almost attributing the blame onto putting themselves in danger. Absolutely.

Madeline Black: But lacey underwear, lacey thongs does not cause rape. 100% of all rapes are caused by rapists. Because we know that babies in nappies are raped, women and burkers are raped, boys are raped. It wasn't their clothing that caused the rape. At the end of the day, it was the rapists, the perpetrators, who made the choice. I was recently just been asked to be a patron of another organisation called justice is now an english organisation and they are working to campaign against rapeness being used within the criminal justice system. Because for that very reason the judge will say, well, you were wearing a lacy thong, whatever, what do you expect? And no, it's nothing to do with your clothing. So I'm really pleased to be part of that, but really sad that this is still going on, this rape culture, this victim blaming society that we live. In,

Joanne Lockwood: do you think this stems back from? I'm thinking to bring it into context, all the midwife, that kind of post war fifty s and sixty s where people didn't really express themselves until rock and roll came along. People generally dressed conservatively. Anybody who dressed less typically, more flamboyantly, was seen as somebody to be ashamed of, had to be a good little boy or a good little girl and dress smartly. And anybody who was maybe more flamboyant was seen as something not to aspire to. And that bad things happen to those people. Do you think it's rooted in that? It still comes down to judgments, doesn't it, at the

Madeline Black: end of the day, or this idea of how we have to conform and be a certain way. You can wear whatever you like. If you walk down the street naked, that's not an invitation to rape you. I don't know where it stems from. But sadly, it's not just been around since the 1950s. Rape, sexual abuse, sexual violence has been around for a long, long time. We have many, many changes that need to happen. So it

Joanne Lockwood: sounds to me that what you're saying and what I'm hearing is that it's almost the rapist is trying to justify their actions, almost like trying to depersonalise it. It wasn't me. It wasn't my fault. I was made to by what they were wearing. This is what they're trying to disassociate themselves with the act.

Madeline Black: Absolutely. And they're not taking any personal responsibility for something that they chose to do. I never invited to be gang raped at 13 or three more times before I was 18. I know now it was nothing to do with what I was wearing, drinking, smoking, where I was hanging out. It was down to the perpetrators of those events.

Joanne Lockwood: I think another part of it is language as well, because I'm very conscious about. You weren't the victim you were the target of. So you're not a victim, are you? You're the person it was done to. Guess, technically,

Madeline Black: legally, I am a victim of a crime. But I don't mind that word. It's okay, it doesn't impact on me because I guess victim also implies that you're weak. But, yeah, a crime was committed against my body, so I was a victim of a crime. But I also know now that I'm not my body, I'm not the things that these people did to me. And that took me a long time to work out as well. For years, like we said at the start, I was so ashamed. I felt so terrified of people finding out that they would just be disgusted because it left me feeling so worthless. I thought I was contaminated, that I could spread that on to someone else, even if by touching me. But I realise now that that's not true. But that took a lot of work, a long time, to find that out. But this is a combination of the

Joanne Lockwood: perpetrator disassociating themselves by pushing the blame, the system itself, not supporting you in a respectful way, by trying to analyse whether you could have been the court. Did you invite this by what you're wearing, behaving? So you're transferring all of this responsibility, going, maybe it was me. Everyone's telling me it could be me, maybe it wasn't. And that must be the hard thing to break out of. Yeah. And I was also the first time, I was very young, I

Madeline Black: was only 13, it was the late 1970s. And I thought, well, we both lied about where we were staying. I had another girlfriend involved in the night and we'd met boys. We bought alcohol and we stayed in an empty flat. My friend's mum was away and we just thought we'd get into trouble. And also, they were very violent, the two young men who chose to rape me that night. And they threatened me. They told me that they would kill me if I spoke out. And after some of the things that he had done, I believed them. So that silenced me as well. For years, I was always looking over my shoulder, always worried that they would come back and find me. It must be

Joanne Lockwood: very frightening because it's a way of silencing you and taking your power away again, isn't it? Absolutely. And I do believe it

Madeline Black: holds us back when we can't speak out. It just completely shut me down. And so much so, I guess it's almost like self harm in a way. I developed anorexia because what we don't speak about, it's got to come out somehow. It has to come out. I always think what we don't speak about leaks out of us. I developed an eating disorder. I became suicidal. I attempted suicide. Was in a children's psychiatric ward. I used drugs and alcohol, really, to numb out, to stop thinking and feeling. My family didn't know at the time, and Nick named me the ice maiden because I practically stopped speaking as well for about three years. So, yeah, I shut down. I guess I imploded rather than exploded.

Joanne Lockwood: And it's still happening in a different sort of way online today, isn't. I mean, it doesn't have to be physical rape. I mean, okay, rape is rape, and that's rape defined. But there are ways one could be abused, thought made to feel insecure online. And that's as powerful your mental impact as a physical act, isn't it? Yeah. I look at all

Madeline Black: these female mps that get the most vile tweets sent out to them just from doing their job every day, wishing them dead, wishing them that they're going to be raped and swearing at them, and they don't deserve that. They're just going in to do their job. Whatever political side you believe in, they're not there to be a target for all of this hate, this online hate. Sometimes social media is brilliant, and sometimes it's just a vile place.

Joanne Lockwood: Oh, for sure. And as soon as you lift the edge of the carpet up and look underneath, there's a big success problem. I was on LinkedIn, I think, the other day, and I think a mutual friend of ours James McKinty posted something on LinkedIn about how women, often women, mainly women, are being chatted up or having inappropriate comments made on the LinkedIn and other professional platforms. And I've seen many of these posts in the past. And when you read the voices of the women and the people who've been the targets, they have a very similar theme. And you don't know how much stalking has gone on before that post, how often that person has gone onto other profiles, said the same things, and the debate was around, should I, as a woman, should you as a woman pull that out publicly? Should we? Just

Madeline Black: about a year ago, I had so many inappropriate messages sent to me. Dick photos, all sorts. It was horrific. And I thought LinkedIn is meant to be a professional platform. Now I deal with it very differently. I had one just the other day who wanted to get to know me better offline, and here's his WhatsApp number. So I told him that to f off. And I told him, this is a professional platform. Go and download Tinder and leave me alone. And I just blocked him. But I shared this story and I had about five or six different messages, inappropriate messages, and I can't tell you how many women contacted me and how many men as well, good, supportive men. And it was viewed about 125,000 times, this post. It was a couple of years ago, and so many people had the same story. And just because it's a professional platform, there's trolls everywhere, there's chances all over the place. It doesn't make any difference. I naively thought it might have done because it's supposed to be professional. But no, they're everywhere. They

Joanne Lockwood: are. And what surprised me was some of the men playing devil's advocate. They put it, they were playing devil's advocate, saying it was unfair of a woman to publicly name and shame somebody because isn't that reverse harassment? And I said, why is that reverse harassment? You're saying I should have dealt with that privately? I should have kept that secret, our dirty little secret, should I? And suddenly I'm now the one to be blamed for saying, no, I'm not going to tolerate this. Had you not wanted me to call you out, why did you send me the message? You weren't prepared to show that message to your wife, your mother, your children? Why would you send it to me?

Madeline Black: Maybe it's time for me to do another post. I've got a few messages I've taken screenshots of before I told them where to go. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: it's quite right. We should always call it out. Always. I've been chatted up on eBay. I remember advertising something for sale and somebody who came second in the biding messaged me after saying, if the first person drops out, I'd be willing to step in. Please let me know. And I thought I just said, thank you. No problem. About an hour later, I got another message saying, forgive me for saying this, but I think you look gorgeous. I'd love to take you out for. Are you serious? Just ebay chat up. An eBay chat up? You think, is there nowhere you can go without being the target of this attention? And it really is quite frightening, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

Madeline Black: There are chances everywhere, really. But I do believe in the good of people. On the whole, people are really good. And that is what I try to put my attention on and my focus at, because there was a time as well where it wasn't just my shame that silenced me, it was my fear. Fear was my best friend and we walked side by side for years and it really restricted my life. So I guess finding my courage was also facing all of my fears and finding my voice to speak out, because fear really crippled me for a long time.

Joanne Lockwood: Can you cast your mind back and remember, was there a triggering moment that allowed you to step forward into courage? Was there something that allowed you to unlock that? Was it a gradual process? I think it

Madeline Black: has been gradual. So I worked at Women's Aid for about 14 years, and I worked at rape crisis as a volunteer for about six years when I moved to Glasgow, Scotland. And I remember taking part in a campaign not that long before I found my voice publicly. And they were doing a campaign called this is not an invitation to rape me. And the journalist said, could he put up my photo and my name? Oh, no, that just felt too big. It just felt too huge. But when I was contacted by Marina from the forgiveness project, which is where I first shared my story publicly six years ago, actually, in September, she said, you can be anonymous. And at that point, I thought, I am tired of being ashamed for a crime committed against my body. So I think it has been a gradual process. And I had heard somebody else. We call ourselves stories from the forgiveness project. I had heard another story. She was going to prison to meet the serial rapist who had broken into her home while she was asleep and had raped her. Her two year old was asleep in the room next door and her husband was away in hospital. He only stopped because the knife broke. He would have killed her. And I just thought, you know, gosh, if she can sit opposite this man in prison for a three hour meeting. Then I am going to share my photo and my name. And it actually was the scariest thing I ever did, but the best thing I ever did. Because you can't eradicate shame by hiding in the shadows. You have to step into the shame to really go, well, fuck it, this is me. I don't care who knows anymore. This is who I am. And so stepping into the shame, doing the things that I would have run a million miles from years ago, that is what grew me. That is really what just shattered the shame completely. And ultimately then found my courage. That's so powerful. I'm

Joanne Lockwood: just listening to you there, thinking some of the words you used there, it was about before you let yourself find your courage. You were effectively living two lives. You had the public Persona and your inner Persona, and you were out of alignment. You had to double think. You had to sort of work out who you were, what you could share, what you couldn't share. I can't relate to your experience, per se, but I know what it's like to have two voices, two heads, two thought processes, and that power disalignment of being that one person in public going, I'm proud of who I am. I'm not ashamed of who I am anymore. I can shout and say everything I want to. I have no secret. I'm not keeping a secret for anybody anymore. You get me? And that is a really empowering thing. And I listened to what you're saying there, and I'm just. My emotions. I guess

Madeline Black: people saw me. We're great at wearing masks. And I always feel like maybe I was a bit of a swan, that everything was fine and great, in control up above, but underneath, I'm paddling like crazy just to keep up. That's really how I think of how I lived those years. And it was fake. I had this fake smile on my face. I wanted to be the perfect mum, partner, homemaker. But, yeah, underneath it, I was terrified of people finding out. And now lifting that is like. It's so freeing. It's like, brilliant. Now I don't need to hide anymore. And a lot of my friends, some of them that did know, they didn't know all the details, and they didn't know that it was near fatal. They didn't know the level of violence. So putting that out there, it just really cuts all the chains that really tied me down and stopped me from growing. It's much more freeing from this side to really just say, this is me. This is everything that you need to know.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm almost welling up here. This is really powerful. When I talk to people, when talking about DNI, in corporates, in diversity, inclusion, belonging, we always talk. One of the powerful ways of doing this is through storytelling. I may not be able to have your exact experience, but if I can build this empathy bridge, if I can start to relate somehow to your lived experience, then I'm going to be able to encompass what you're saying into my sense of well being and my sense of psyche myself. And it's not. So I feel sympathy for you, so I feel empathy from you and I build strength from your strength. And I think by telling your story. And I really am not a fan of the word role model or the term role model, but we have to recognise that people do look to people for inspiration. If they can, I can. They've made it. I can make it. And that's the relatable experience. I'm sure you hate being called brave. It's a title awarded rather than a feeling you necessarily have. Bravery is hindsight at the time, you're just doing what you do. But, yeah, I'm sure you've given a lot of people, you've passed the courage on, if you like. Yeah, it is an interesting word, brave, because I don't

Madeline Black: want to be considered brave. I'd like it to be normal that we can all speak out and be okay with who we are and be accepted. But I realise a lot of that journey was a personal journey. I had to be okay with who I was, and I had to accept myself. And I can't undo what happened to me. But it's kind of a paradox, because in some ways it's clearly shaped my life, but in other ways, it's not who I am as well. The real essence of who we're all born with, that fire in our belly, whatever we are, whatever our experience is, nothing can change that. And that's what I really believe. But like you, I do believe in the power of sharing stories. And Marina, who is the founder of the forgiveness project, she has this beautiful expression. She doesn't call us storytellers, she calls us story healers. And I've just felt that healing power of sharing my story. Whether someone's been raped or not, there's always something that we can resonate with someone else. I've just felt it so many times. And that what really inspires me to carry on speaking out, it motivates me just to. Not for me anymore, but what it can do for other people now, to unlock their own potential, find their own voice and share their stories, speak out. Do you find

Joanne Lockwood: sometimes that your story is you? You are your story. And sometimes it would just be nice to be Madeline for a while. Just be Madeline, just be recognised as a psychologist or wherever you are, rather than being. I don't want to be either the engine Jones esteem anymore, or Joe the trans person. I just want to be Joe the lockwood, Joe the person, Joe the trainer.

Madeline Black: Get that? But I realised my story had the power to help other people. So when I think back, it doesn't feel like me anymore. That person that I speak about. I've done a tonne load of therapy, a tonne load of speaking therapies, body therapy. I feel so healed. And in fact it's actually grown me now. I think there's post traumatic growth rather than post traumatic stress disorder. I think I've grown from my experience, so I'm okay with that. It's fine. People, you can't stop how people see you. They're going to see you however they want to. But as long as I'm okay with who I am, I think now that's taken me to this grand old age to get that. But that's really all that matters.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'm just reading back on your superpower. It's your voice and ability to speak out. So your lived experience has given you this superpower and through this superpower, your purpose and mission in life, if you like. And it's something you're now rising to and using. I talk about privilege as being something you shouldn't be ashamed of. It's how you wield it. And you're using your privilege of strength and character and wielding that for the good of society. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like

Madeline Black: I say, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I wouldn't undo it now because it really has taught me a lot. I mean, it's shown me, and I can see it in everybody else, that we're all so much stronger than we think we are. And really okay. I needed a lot of support to get past a lot of the issues that I had. I lived with PTSD for years and wasn't even aware. So many fears, phobias, anxieties. But at the end of the day, once I had worked it and worked it and worked it, I saw that I had a choice and I could choose to stay in my past or I could choose to grow from it. And that's what I chose to. So we all have a choice and we can get past anything that happens to us, we really can. So you did a

Joanne Lockwood: TEDx, if I remember rightly, I did, yeah. Glasgow, was it? 2000 people in a big theatre somewhere, was it? Yeah. I don't know

Madeline Black: if I'll ever be doing that again. It was 2100 or something like that. So again, it was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. Even though I had spoken on stages before, it really was pretty intense, because Glasgow, I didn't know. I know now, is one of the top ten ones in Europe, so it's a really hard one to get into, so I felt really proud that I got into that one, but they weren't sure about my story to start with, and then they were obviously really behind me. But once I walked out onto the stage and I stood on that red dot, I just thought, it's not about me speaking now, it's about who's listening, and that just centres me and grounds me, and it gave me the strength to share my story. And even if I just help one person, I think, well, that's my job done. And straight afterwards, I was contacted by a head teacher who I've now had a lot of contact with, and one young woman in the audience that was with the school party started to cry after she heard me. She got very triggered. And cut a long story short, she had been raped by her uncle three years prior. I've now met the young woman who is extraordinary, she's fabulous, and she said she would never have spoken out, but she saw me standing there with no shame and being proud of her past and she said it gave her hope. And I think, well, that's it, that's my job done. I was just there for you that day. But, yeah, a lot of people do still contact me after my ted. So, yeah, I'm grateful that I had that platform. It was brilliant to have a TEDx. Yeah, I haven't done it yet.

Joanne Lockwood: Maybe one day I've just got to find my why. But you found your why and your message of passion. But you're so right. It's the small things. You bump into people, maybe you're at a conference, maybe you're in a different scenario and someone come up to you and say, can I have a quick word? And they say, I saw you this, or I saw that, I watched this, I saw your YouTube, I heard you speak. And just to let you know, in my particular case, my daughter's trans or my husband come out and by listening to you has given me some hope. And you think, wow, that's that one person that you wanted to change the life of, and these people find you and they put effort into seeking you out to tell you their story. I'm almost in tears. I'm sure you are. When you hear people's stories as well, that it's such an incredible feeling to know you have made that difference to one person, isn't it? It's amazing.

Madeline Black: One of my best examples. I've been interviewed by fabulous people, obviously, yourself included, but I was interviewed by Sir Trevor McDonald, which is a hard one to beat, I know, for BBC Radio Four. And to cut a long story short, once the programme had been aired, it was the most amazing thing. My friend Sandra, who works for the forgiveness project, told me her mum had been listening. And to cut a very long story short, that day she ended 64 years of her silence when she told her daughter that she had been raped too, as a teenager. And she had never told anyone up until that moment. She said it's because she heard a woman on the radio who understood how it was, that she felt guilty and ashamed and thought it was her fault. And I had made her realise that it was never her fault. She had nothing to be ashamed about. It was down to the perpetrator. And she found her voice that day. And I believe that courage is contagious. It was somebody else speaking out that helped me find my voice and I just really intend to use my voice. I just feel like I'm a vehicle or a vessel for helping other people find their courage and their voice. And that, to me, every time I speak, I think of my friend's mum. Because there's so many people that have just put themselves into their own prison of silence that can't speak out because of their ashamed or they're fearful or they're worried about being judged. And she broke out of that. And my friend said there's every chance she would have taken that story to the grave and she'd have never known about it. And that breaks my heart, that really does, yeah. And that's the why,

Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? That's the why, absolutely. That is my why. I often tell this story. It's about one person alone. When they speak out is often called a snowflake. They fall to the ground, they're insignificant. They melt when they hit the tarmac. But you put a billion people with voices together, they become an avalanche. An avalanche has power. An avalanche can move mountains. An avalanche can cut through and be heard and be reckoned with. So we all need to come together with our voices. And not melt as a single snowflake. Become that avalanche. Starts with a single snowflake, really, though,

Madeline Black: doesn't it? We just have to gather them on. Come together. Yeah, absolutely. Come together and start with being a

Joanne Lockwood: snowball. Start with being a bigger snowball and get the momentum. It's just like that because the ripple

Madeline Black: effect of me speaking out. One friend now has started a blog and she's now inspired other people to speak out. And it's the ripples of where it goes, and we never know where it goes as well. Sometimes it's years later, someone can sit. So yesterday, actually, I was out hill walking with some friends, which we started to do since lockdown, and we met a couple of young girls that were like, my kids age. They were like 25 and 27. And one of them found me on Instagram because I put a post up about this knock hill summit we climbed. And she said, I know you. I didn't realise I had my hair pulled back and no makeup on. Yesterday she said, I've been following you on Instagram for years and I've read your book. And this happened to me, too. I didn't realise when I was chatting to you, that was you, and she said, I watched this podcast with you and she was just like, yeah, she suddenly could tell me because she knew my story and she went into her details with me just this morning on Instagram. So, yeah, it's interesting. It really is. That's really powerful of love, isn't it? Because

Joanne Lockwood: people often know so much about you by reading your books and your TEDx. They've listened to your interviews and things. And when you meet people, they've got so much warmth for you because they feel like they know you really well. And it's kind of a strange feeling sometimes that someone knows you that well and you don't know them. Yeah, I'm used to it. But I do, obviously, write

Madeline Black: about my husband and my kids in my book. So Stephen gets quite awkward. Oh, Stephen, I want to just give you a big hug. You've just, what a guy. And you supported her all this time, and he's like, oh, okay. Or some of the reviews on Amazon they'll mention do. I used to say that I thought he was an angel sent to save me, because at the point in my life when I met him, I was really on a path of self destruct. And I often wonder if I hadn't met him at that point where it would have gone, I would have gone on to harder drugs or something else. My self respect, my self esteem. My self confidence was really bad. But, yes, people get very excited when they meet him and he's like, he can't cope. But, yeah, it's cute.

Joanne Lockwood: So we're topically end of July and 2020 here, as we're having this conversation, and I think we'd have to be living in a cave if we didn't realise that Covid-19 was around us. And the world changed significantly in March for most people. And I think we're both aware that it's having a significant impact on people who are in a home environment, living in a toxic environment. Domestic violence, domestic abuse, not just women, but also when we think about lgbt people living in an environment that's not safe for them, it's a big challenge. Are you hearing stories now from people? I'm also a patron for

Madeline Black: a scottish organisation called say women, and we support young women that have been sexually abused and are facing homelessness because it's no longer safe to stay at home. So Pam, the CEO and myself spoke very early on on the radio because they were launching a grant scheme to get some more money to add extra services to the service they already provide. And within the first three weeks of lockdown, 16 women, 14 women and two young girls were murdered at the hands of their partner. So I think, for anyone, life was tough before. It just got a whole lot tougher. I think when we're out of lockdown completely, I'm in Scotland, so we're kind of a little bit behind England. The calls to the national abuse helpline to rape crisis. The need for refuge is just going to go up. It's just going to be. Yeah. For a lot of people, home is not a safe place. It really isn't. And I'm grateful. I had moaned a bit because I had my house suddenly busy again. I realised I got used to my peace and quiet. I quite liked it. Suddenly had a husband, home and two kids. But actually, now I'm really grateful for this time. It's brilliant. But, yeah, I have to recognise, we have to see that for home, a lot of people, it's not a good place, it's tough. It's really tough out there. Yeah. And it does worry

Joanne Lockwood: me sometimes when you listen to the corporate voice, if you like, saying, oh, this new way of working is going to be great for our company. We'll have people working from home, working remotely. People love it. We get so much good feedback. But I think when we go back to this inclusion, belonging sort of focus, that sometimes we're not hearing all the voices, or we're not putting those voices into enough context, amplify them to make sure those concerns are listened to and addressed. Things. I

Madeline Black: have a friend who teaches it, and she said most of her students don't have access to the wifi. They're maybe refugees. They don't have a laptop. They don't have the need to do the class at home. She spends all this time preparing lessons. Normally have 30 people in person. She might have one or two that turn up. So it's hard for her and it's really hard for them. And she said she's heard all their back stories. They all have struggles and their priorities now are undercut after their family or their brothers and sisters. And it's not easy. It's a lot of challenges, whatever this is bringing. And it's also hard for people with their mental health because everything's uncertain. And we like to think we're in control, but we have to get okay with not knowing, and that's really tough for people. We don't know how this is going to look, when it's going to end, if it will ever end. Maybe we'll always be impacted on this in some way.

Joanne Lockwood: But going back to the title of the show, finding courage and the voice to speak out, it's really important that we create permission or allowing people to have that voice, because if we don't hear them, their voice will be buried. And what worries me is because the way the employment market, the, the way, way the jobs are at the moment, a lot of people have been made redundant. A lot of businesses are closing, a lot of airlines, entertainment events, all shutting down. So maybe people are going to put up with more because of they're worried about their job. They're more like to suffer part with an employer not treating them fairly because they know that there's no job. So that person's going to be loyal. So it does take a lot of privilege and courage to be able to stand up for yourself, knowing full well that could impact your employment status.

Madeline Black: Absolutely. Because I can't imagine right now if you lose your job, it's a good time to find another job. It must be really worrying for people just thinking, well, I just put up with it because it's better the devil you know, really, isn't it? So, yeah, it's finding a balance, really, isn't it?

Joanne Lockwood: And the workplace was your source of refuge often, wasn't it? You had ally support, friends, and for.

Madeline Black: Kids as well, for a lot of children that were forced to stay at home, that are getting abused or neglected at home or they only got their one cooked meal when they were at school. It's been tough on children as well. It's a really tough time.

Joanne Lockwood: Is there an answer? There's no magic wand here. Can you think of anything that employers could start doing? How do they engage with their teams and their staff? I guess that really depends on what the

Madeline Black: employer is like to start with. If an employee with heart and they care about their employees, then, yeah, you lucked out. If it's someone that just wants you to produce the number crunches or get the figures up, whatever, and doesn't really care about you, yeah, it depends if there's heart in your organisation or not.

Joanne Lockwood: It's the pulse, it's the corporate values and culture, isn't it? That's the influence. Absolutely. And if those aren't there to start with, then it's

Madeline Black: going to be tough. It's going to be really tough.

Joanne Lockwood: Do you think we'll come out of this in a year, six months? Are you seeing this as a kind of forever thing now? You know what I think of,

Madeline Black: like, 911? I mean, my youngest one is going to be 19 next week. And I said, you know, it used to be a time, Leila, where we never used to take our toiletries in little plastic bags. I used to have a great big carry on toiletry box filled to the brim of 100, 500 mils, whatever. Really? I've always known plastic bags. Could you take bottles? So, in some way, I wonder if we'll always have to have our temperature taken if we go to a restaurant or always have to leave our details, or there's going to be something that will just become normal, because now you don't even question it. You buy your little bottles, you fill them up, you put them in your plastic bag, you fly, whatever. Not that we're doing much flying at the moment, but I wonder if it's always going to impact on us in some way. But, yeah, it's a bit surreal at times. It's like living in a science fiction movie. It really is. When we look back, I often think. It'S a bit like the. It's like the Will Smith movie, isn't

Joanne Lockwood: it? The zombies and everything. We look out the window, there are no zombies. It's like the same thing, but there's nothing visible to hang this crisis on, this invisible virus. But

Madeline Black: I think it shows. I mean, in the beginning, for me, the environment was intense and I'm meant to be a motivational speaker and I really struggled. I thought I gave up working as a psychotherapist. I'm going to put my energy into speaking and I did not feel motivated at all. I was really struggling and I think that collective energy was hard as well because I think I had my own stuff. And then you feed into the collective fear out there in the community and collective anxieties. And I had a lot of people messaging me about their anxieties, people with unprocessed trauma that was getting triggered and new memories resurfacing. But I think now, I don't know if I speak just for me, but I feel like we've got used to it now and we're adapting and we've got used to this change. Not saying that we like it, but just shows you that we are adaptable. And yes, that was the initial trauma when it first came in, but we have grown into it and we're getting used to it. Doesn't mean that I particularly like online working. I have to be honest, I much prefer a live audience and people, but it has its points as well. I can wear my tracky bottoms and my slippers and nobody needs to know, just pop down from my room upstairs. It has advantages as well, but I think it might impact us, on us for a long time to come.

Joanne Lockwood: I think you're right, definitely think you're right. And I think just the change of attitude we're now having towards interactions with each other, our default position is almost of mistrust for people around us rather than where we were before, maybe trusting or not even considering our personal space. What do you mean by that? By mistrust? Well, if someone's not wearing a mask, worried about them, if someone's invading our personal space, we're now thinking, well, I've got elderly parents. If I mix with people, if I get on a train, am I worried about my surfaces? Am I worried about pittings around me? So we're kind of starting to mistrust and feel insecure, I think.

Madeline Black: We're living in Scotland, we all wear our masks. I mean, it was mandatory before England and we all kind of socially distanced to a whole, but, yeah, no, I understand. Sadly, my mum has been diagnosed with cancer again after ten years and so I'm really worried, as we're opening up, I don't want to spend too much time with other people because then Sheena has to be shielded again if she goes through radiotherapy. I understand what you mean and I think we're all going to become germaphobes. We're going to become so obsessed my hands have never been so clean the amount of gel that we go.

Joanne Lockwood: The early march, I was in Newcastle on a Monday, then I flew to Amsterdam for three days and by the time I got back on Friday the 13th, the world changed mid flight. I didn't get the memo or something. No one had told me that by the time I got back, everything was different. And I remember coming back on the train and phoned my wife up and said, look, I'm coming home. I've got notified that I may have been in contact with someone who may have been in contact with someone on the virgin train on the way to Newcastle. This is the early stages of track trade before it was official and we had to have this conversation about, should I come? So if I come home, I've now bought anything I have with me having spent three days in the aeroplanes and conferences and things, I'm now potentially bringing something back into the home. So I almost felt like we had to negotiate permission for me to come back. And how is that going to impact my wife? How is that going to impact those around me? How would that impact her ability to look after her parents around my elderly parent? So suddenly it's not just about me, it's about my impact on others. And I went to London to have my hair done and do a few other things two weeks ago and I'm thinking as I'm coming back, I've been on the underground, I've been on a train, I've been here, I've been there, okay, with a mask on. But now I've now brought an environment back with me that wasn't in our household before. So what's my impact on our family unit? But it's hard. Do you want to just hide away

Madeline Black: completely or do you want to get back to some kind of normality as well? And I guess we're going to have to risk being exposed to it at some point. Yeah, it's very hard. So in the very beginning, we had a lot of families in my own immediate family that was affected by it. My aunt died of COVID my brother in law has myeloma, which means that he had only just had a second stem cell transplant. So he's not allowed out at all. He's not been out for about three months and he's just been allowed out to go walking now. I think at the end of July, he can still go out now, but then he'll still have to shield. He'll still have to be two metres apart from everyone, which he might have to stay like that until he gets a vaccine. So my two, lots of our parents are both in their eighty s. One set is better behaved than the other set. But we were cooking and looking after all these people, not cooking, doing all their shopping. So it's really tough. And then I'm thinking, well, I'm going to the supermarket. I've touched something, I could potentially bring it to them. And we were trying to protect them, but we could drive ourselves crazy, really, couldn't we? Yeah. We

Joanne Lockwood: double think about everything, don't we? Yeah. We went to the cinema a couple of weeks ago and I forget what we went to see now, but what we went to see. And there was about five people in the entire cinema. Yeah, it doesn't appeal to

Madeline Black: me right now. No, it was an empty experience.

Joanne Lockwood: All these things that were familiar, like going shopping, when you go shopping, it's not a nice, comfortable experience. So all of that, all those brain chemicals that we got pleasure from by doing these things, spending money, enjoying ourselves, trying on a new dress, buying something nice to wear. Where are we going to wear that nice thing? We're not going to go party, we're not going to the pub. So you go to the shop. I was holding this dress up thinking, I love this dress. I thought, I'm never going to wear it, not this year. There's no point buying it. Tracky bottoms and some slippers would be nice. Well, my first trip out

Madeline Black: was to Tiso, which is an outdoor shop, and I bought some walking boots. That was really exciting. And some waterproof trousers because I'm doing more hill walking and walking outside than ever before. But it was so exciting to go and buy something and I needed a new rucksack and I got some plasters for my blisters and it was like, yeah, this is really exciting to go. That was the first time I'd been in a shop for about four months, other than a supermarket or a pharmacy, and spent some money. But yeah, to go shopping there doesn't really appeal to me. But it was like quick in, try my boots on and then get out as quickly as possible.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm spending most of my money these days on gadgets and technical and remote speaking stuff and podcasting and mics and things. That's my fix because I'm actually using them and buying lots of tops and no bottoms because, as you say, just trackies and stretchy pants are fine. No

Madeline Black: slippers. Every time you stand up you think, oops, sorry, I just

Joanne Lockwood: hide away from the camera, just shuffle away. So you wrote your book. Was that before or after the TEDx?

Madeline Black: That was a little while ago now. So unbroken has been out since April 2017. So I wrote it like a year or two before, but the publishing process takes a while, so I was very lucky. Just before lockdown, it had been recorded, so it's now available on audible. And in January next year, 2021, I'm going to be translated into Italian. So it's amazing because it's like three, three and a half years old, we nearly four years old, and that I can still get all these other options to happen. But, yeah, unsadly my story is not uncommon. It's a story of many, many people. And it's, I guess, the kind of book that will never go out of fashion. Because every day, somewhere on our planet, a man, a woman, a child will be raped or abused.

Joanne Lockwood: That's a heavy sentence to hang on, isn't it? It is,

Madeline Black: but it's the truth.

Joanne Lockwood: So what's your optimistic view of the future? How's the world going to change for the better? Or are you still pessimistic about the future? You know what? I never really intended

Madeline Black: to be a speaker. I always call myself an accidental speaker. But I realised that my voice really is my power that will help other people. And I've always just gone with the flow. I did have a tantrum about remote speaking in the beginning, I have to be honest. But I've now delivered a couple of keynotes at some online network events or conferences. And it was okay. It was actually really good. It wasn't as bad as I thought. So there is that future. But I'm still very happy to just go with the flow and just see what comes to me. I've been lucky. I choose to speak. I don't need to speak to support myself. I have another source of income. I look after some properties for my mum so that I find secure financially from that point of view. But I speak because it comes from my heart. And so I will always find a way to speak out, share my story, to help other people find their voice and their courage. Fantastic. So how can people get hold of you if they want to make

Joanne Lockwood: contact? What's the best way for them to find you? Well, I have a website,

Madeline Black: madelineblack.co.uk, and I am on all the social media platforms apart from TikTok. I can't really get to TikTok. No, I've not sourced that one

Joanne Lockwood: twitch. I haven't sauced either of those two. Awesome. I'm sure to everyone who's listening today, that there's so much there to take inspiration from, to take courage from as well. So a huge thank you for your time today, for sharing your story again, and also to the listener out there who's tuned in and got this far, thank you very much. I'd ask you to keep subscribing to this podcast and to future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's bit yes. Tell your friends and colleagues, because I'm sure they would love to share this story as well. I have a number of other exciting guests. You think Madeline's powerful? I mean, I've got some other powerful storytellers and speakers lined up as well that you'll definitely be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And if you are one of those people that has a story and would like to be a guest and to share with the listeners, then please let me know. And as usual, I'd welcome your feedback suggestions to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk how we can improve the show or other topics we can cover. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to be your host for this podcast today.