--- title: "Leading With Authenticity" episode: 119 date: 2024-07-25 guest: "Dr Shelley Jones-Holt" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/119-leading-with-authenticity audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-119/audio.mp3 --- # Leading With Authenticity Joanne Lockwood speaks with leadership coach Dr Shelley Jones-Holt about what it really means to lead with authenticity, and why “being yourself” isn’t a free pass to be careless with impact. Shelley argues that authentic leadership starts with honesty, transparency, and the courage to ask clarifying questions instead of making assumptions—especially in moments of discomfort or difference. They explore how authenticity is shaped long before work, including childhood conditioning and the habits people learn to survive in rigid systems. Shelley shares a metaphor of “leaving the plantation” to describe exiting restrictive workplace and education norms, and how that shift can require relearning who you are once the rules and hierarchy no longer define your behaviour. The conversation also examines equity as a leadership value—getting people what they need, when they need it, in the way they need it delivered—and how that requires leaders to adapt their communication style without becoming inauthentic. Along the way, they discuss psychological safety, masking, and the “mental gymnastics” minoritised people perform under stereotypes and microaggressions. Shelley unpacks what microaggressions are, how they arise from stereotypes and unchecked implicit bias, and why they can be so damaging even when framed as compliments. The episode closes with a practical call for leaders to know their people, use storytelling to build connection, and lead with courage by admitting what they know—and what they still need to learn. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome. - 02:00 — Being authentic as a leader is vital. - 06:35 — Preparing young black people for challenges of life. - 12:28 — Speaking truth requires responsibility and situational awareness. - 22:23 — Leaders must serve and meet diverse needs. - 25:12 — Lead with authenticity by understanding and adapting. - 30:56 — Build connection with team, understand and support. - 37:35 — Leaders must be authentic, not obstructive. - 44:01 — Challenging microaggressions against dumb blonde stereotype. - 49:31 — Importance of those leading and preparing ground. - 53:31 — Lead with expertise, value frontline input. - 58:42 — Embrace learning, be authentic, lead with courage. - 01:01:01 — Express gratitude, join community, amplify voices, connect. ## Key takeaways - The essential balancing act between authenticity and responsibility in conversations and leadership roles. - How one's transition from traditional systems to entrepreneurial ventures can underscore the necessity for mental liberation and a counterintuitive approach to success. - The transformative impact of embracing authenticity on personal growth and the development of potential leaders within an organisation. - The pivotal role of continuous learning and unlearning in the quest to reveal a leader's authentic self. - How to cultivate authentic relationships in leadership by adhering to the four agreements highlighted by Dom Miguel Ruiz. - The importance of storytelling in understanding team members' backgrounds and motivations, furthering an inclusive and productive work atmosphere. - Strategies for leaders to check and challenge their biases and stereotypes to foster a culture of equity and effective contribution. ## FAQs ### Why is authenticity important in leadership? Authenticity in leadership fosters trust, promotes open communication, and creates an environment where people feel comfortable being themselves. Dr. Shelley Jones-Holt emphasises that authentic leaders are genuine, transparent, and courageous, which allows them to build other leaders and encourage growth through a foundation of truth and respect. ### Can you explain the term "leaving the plantation" mentioned by Dr. Shelley Jones-Holt? "Leaving the plantation" is a metaphor used by Dr. Shelley to describe her journey from a restrictive and oppressive traditional work system, such as the school system, to the freedom of entrepreneurship. It symbolises her emancipation from environments that did not foster or celebrate authenticity and mental well-being. ### How does Dr. Shelley Jones-Holt compare schools and workplaces to historical plantations? Dr. Shelley draws parallels between the dynamics of schools and workplaces with historical plantations, noting how both can have a negative impact on mental health. She suggests that these systems often require individuals to operate in ways that are counterintuitive to thriving, thus reinforcing the need for liberation and authenticity. ### What is Dr. Shelley's take on the balance between authenticity and responsibility? Dr. Shelley states that authentic expression should be balanced with responsibility and respect. While it is crucial to speak one's truth, it should not be done in a manner that is mean or harmful. This balance is key to authentic conversations and leadership that encompasses empathy and understanding. ### What does operating using Dom Miguel Ruiz's 4 agreements involve in building authentic relationships? Dr. Shelley mentions the application of Dom Miguel Ruiz's 4 agreements as a means of fostering authentic relationships: being impeccable with your word, not taking things personally, not making assumptions, and always doing your best. These principles help to create a genuine connection and understanding with others. ### How does Dr. Shelley Jones-Holt view storytelling in leadership? Dr. Shelley advocates for the power of storytelling in leadership as an approach to comprehending the backgrounds and motivations of team members. Storytelling helps in recognising the uniqueness of individuals, facilitating an environment where everyone feels valued and motivated. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 119 with the title, Leading with Authenticity. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Dr Shelley Jones-Holt. Shelley is a courageous leadership coach, author, and speaker. When I asked Shelley to describe her superpower, she said, it is her ability to bring people together that think about the world and have experienced society differently and creating a safe space for them to be authentic with each other so that they can take brave actions together. Hello, Shelley. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Jo. It's awesome to be here. And number 119, that has to be a special number. Maybe we'll play those numbers or something. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, yeah. Completely. There must be some sort of fen tui or some sort of alignment of the planets that, that's our number today. Jo, yeah, absolutely fantastic. So, Shelley, we were chatting in the green room before we came on, and we were talking about a lot of things. And the thing that came out of it was about being authentic, this authenticity. So how do we lead with authenticity? There there Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: are so many ways, and I have to say that part of the reason that I love the title leading with authenticity is because so many times we we experience leadership where people are, quote, unquote, trying to lead. And this idea of leading with authenticity, it implies that you are enough, and you are amazing just as you are, and there shouldn't be a different way that we need to show up to be, quote, unquote, authentic. And so many times people feel like they need to almost fake authenticity or they need to, you know, oh, I'm trying to lead in this way. And it's like, well, just be yourself and be honest and open and transparent with what it is you're trying to do. And trust that if you are open and honest and transparent, people will will feel that, will feed off of that, and that's how you will grow people to follow you. And it's also how you'll build other leaders. Confident, authentic leaders breed and build confident, authentic leaders. And in this world right now with the way things are, there are so many people that are leading from a place of fear, or they're leading from a place of of feeling the need to please the hierarchy or please certain people in order to get opportunities that I truly believe that those who are truly at their core authentic leaders, they're such a rare art form that those are going to be the leaders of tomorrow because they don't have to think about what it is they're doing. They're just being. And then as a result, they lead from a place of being. So leading with authenticity, it it requires courage, which we're gonna talk about in a moment. And there are a lot of courageous things that we can do to lead, not just in the places we work, but leading where we live, leading where we learn, and leading where we earn in a way that we can be proud of that will truly change the world. So this idea of courageous authentic leadership is very near and dear to my heart, and I do believe it authenticity or better yet, the pulling off the cloaks of fear to to reveal authenticity can be learned, which means that we're gonna have to unlearn some things to get there. Yeah. I completely agree. I think I'm a great believer and Joanne Lockwood: advocate, but leadership is a skill and a skill that could be developed, nurtured, and learned as something we have to develop always. We can't just I'm a leader now. I stop. It's about continual improvement. When we look at leadership models of past, though, we are often authoritarian, ego driven. How and maybe some new leaders or people emerging to the leadership field may be role modeling different behaviors. Jo how can we make sure that we we are authentic and not ego driven? Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: would say that we have to recognize when we're being inauthentic and the and the triggers that will create that in in in that lack of authenticity, if you will. And so knowing that when you get into prickly situations, when you get into difficult situations, unsure situations, or you're dealing with people who are different from yourself that you typically may not may feel a little bit of trepidation with dealing with. And being honest and open with ourselves about that will help us realize, oh, I may have a tendency to be inauthentic in this place and space. Now that I can recognize that the propensity to be inauthentic, I can be intentional about interrupting that that feeling, that thought, and figure out, like, what is my authentic place and space in this? What's my do I have questions that I wanna ask that maybe I'm a little embarrassed about? How can I go about doing that? I think one of the biggest things that we can do, I operate using Dominique Ruiz's 4 agreements, and it's something that I use. I help to help people build that safe space with one another. And if you're unfamiliar with the the, Four Agreements from Dom Miguel Ruiz, it's a book I highly recommend everyone have a copy of. It's one that I give my chill my own children. I have 8 of them when they turn 13 almost as a rite of passage because growing up black in America or black in the world, period. They're going to have to find ways to deal with the internal challenges that the external world will will bring them. And so it's it helps them to find that center of authenticity early so that when they get in those prickly situations, they can identify that it okay. This is gonna be a situation where I'm gonna struggle to not be a pleaser or to do what I you know, the system wants me to do as opposed to what I know is right by the people and recognizing that the system sometimes will have us do things to people that are not good for people, but they're good for the system, which is a whole different conversation, but that's one of those situations that can lead to inauthenticity. If you have a foundation in being impeccable with your word, which is the first agreement, Not to take anything personal. Recognize that what other people do is not about you. That is about them, and they have their own burdens that they're gonna have to figure out. Being able to not make assumptions and instead have the courage to ask a clarifying question, or as we like to say, have the courage to grill that beef up and eat it because it has to do with you. And if you don't have the courage to ask, then you need to let that go. Right? And then the 4th agreement is just doing the best you can and recognizing your best is gonna be different moment to moment, situation to situation. Your best is gonna be different if you've just experienced a trauma or a death or quite frankly if you're just tired. Your best is gonna be different, and we have to learn to forgive ourselves in those moments. Being able to walk in those agreements is gonna breed authenticity because I if you're doing something, I'm not gonna take that on as something that has to do with me. I'm gonna continue to be me. Speaking light and positivity into myself even when I make mistakes. That's about me embracing the learning process of growing and being a a different person tomorrow, a better person tomorrow than I was yesterday. The ability to not make assumptions and either say to myself, either I'm gonna have a the courage to you know let's say I'm meeting someone for the first time or go up and have that conversation, or I may have a question about someone who is different and comes from a different cultural background. Do I have the courage to ask? You know? Hey. Do you mind sharing with me a little bit about, you know, your story around whatever versus all the assumptions and predictions that we make automatically, and then we act on them and get embarrassed when we commit microaggressions. Right? So it's it's a way of being, and I think bringing in building authenticity is something that happens long before we get to the job, long before we get to interacting with other people. It starts in childhood. It starts in how we're raised, and that's at where I really do believe our leadership conversations need to shift into how we're growing and developing our young leaders of today who, if you've turned on TikTok or Snapchat, you realize they have no problem being authentic and telling you about yourself or themselves for that matter. And that that's one of the challenges, isn't it? The the Joanne Lockwood: word authentic means being true to yourself and some of your your values and some of the driving forces. But it's not licensed to say and speak anything in in with the you know, using it's but it's my authentic truth. I deserve to be able to say that. That's not what it's about, is it? No. Not at all. That to me, Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's, you know, taking authenticity to a place of being mean and evil spirited. So being if your authentic self means that you wanna harm other people, then quite frankly, there is something going on with you and your internal self that requires, you know, medical intervention because that's not a natural state and a naturally positive, healthy, productive way of being. I mean, if you wake up in the morning, you know, trying to figure out how I can harm people and hurt people's feelings with my words today because they disagree with me, like, get some help because that's not the way that, you know, quality authentic debate happens. Now I could have differences of opinion. I can have differences in experiences, and I can share my differences in a way that is still respectful and in speaking your truth. So the other set of agreements that I didn't quite talk about come from a a a friend of ours by the name of Glenn Singleton who wrote a a book about 30 years ago that he has, you know, reached international fame called courageous conversations about race. And what he speaks about is the need to stay engaged in the conversations, to speak your truth, and speaking your truth can be done in a way that's respectful and positive. I can speak about racialized experiences being a black woman in America and how people who identify as white have caused harm historically and currently without then pointing at every person who I think identifies as white and talking about how they owe me or they did this, that, and the other. Those are very different conversations. I can speak about history and its impact on folks or even my current experience even if someone of the with someone who shares an identity with those who I may see as villains in my story. But I don't have to insult the other person or and they don't have to accept responsibility or blame or shame for that. It's my story. And there are people of African descent that have been the villains in other people's story. I don't take that on. And so, again, this idea that I can be authentic, I can speak my truth, and even if it harms other people, well, that's where you have to wonder, like, why would you wanna speak your truth in a way that harms? Now if it impacts someone and they may take offense to it or they may feel some kind of way about it, that's very different from intending to cause harm and being disrespectful or or in any way what's the word I'm looking for? Irresponsible, if you will, with your words. And so this idea of speaking your truth does not come without consequence. This idea of being your authentic self does not mean that everybody is going to accept it and and be willing to, you know, kinda tolerate your truth. So you gotta be think about situate what we call situational appropriateness. So the truth that I'm going my true self around, let's say, my grandparents versus my true self and authentic self around my girlfriends versus my true self when, you know, I'm with someone who I just met and we're having, you know, a semi professional, semi personal conversation, is gonna be very different, and that's okay. You know, we sit I think people mistake speaking their truth with, oh, I don't have to take responsibility for it afterwards, or I can also be situationally inappropriate, and that is not the case. Leading with authenticity means I'm also aware of my surroundings and my impact on those surroundings, and I want my truth to uplift. If I'm telling a story about you know, let's say, I often tell the story about how I left the plantation when I left the, you know, w two world and what that meant for me. And for some people who are still there, they may go, oh goodness. Well, I'm still on the the, quote, unquote, plantation. Does that mean she looks down on me? And it's like, it has nothing to do with that. That's my story. That was my experience. And I am allowed to walk in it authentically. And guess what? There are some people like my husband who loves working in his w two world. Work it out. That that works for you. They're just different parts of our stories. So when we talk about leading with authenticity, I think there is a certain responsibility we have to be conscious of because it does not mean that you just get to say whatever you want, do whatever you want, and mistreat people in any way you want because that's just being irresponsible and quite frankly mean and evil, and that's not what we're about. You mentioned a couple of Joanne Lockwood: things there. 1 was this, w two, and you mentioned leaving the plantation. Can I can can you unpack a bit of that? Because, it's not a phrase that I've heard of and many of our listeners probably wouldn't have heard of those. So absolutely, Jo. I do Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I knew I was gonna lobby that one up, and I knew we're gonna have to dunk that one. So I often will speak about as an entrepreneur, and and I really do appreciate the freedoms there, but also there's a lot of responsibility, I must say, that comes with being an entrepreneur. I became an entrepreneur after working about a little under 25 years in the school system here in America. And the reason I called it the plantation, it's not, you know, just a, you know, a funny term. But when you think about what plantations meant to this country, what was expected in plantations in this country, They for some people, they were a source of a lot of income. They were the source of great generational wealth. They were the source of happy memories, and there was definitely an expected hierarchy or a systemic hierarchy when you were on the plantation that everyone knew. And if you violated it in any way, there were measures that would be taken regardless of race at this point to keep people in line. And, unfortunately, many people don't may may find it difficult to face the fact that our schools and sometimes our workplaces operate in much the same way. And these spaces with their unwritten and written rules can be very oppressive to people who don't fit the mold or who think differently or imagine us in an educational system, someone who's very autistic. And and I said r with a artistic with an r. And, you know, they express themselves very creatively, and yet the system is very traditionalist. You take these tests. You answer these questions. You show me your knowledge in this way. Well, there are systems that at play in the educational system very much like in the plantation that are not healthy for everyone. I was one of those people that did not necessarily have the the always the healthiest experience. Although I was very successful on the plantation, what it did for my my psyche and my mental health was detrimental much like, you know, our plantations of the past. So the reason I called it the plantation is because it gives people a very clear connection to the systems and the rules that operated and the way people then experience things differently. And, you know, if you did well in the PlayStation, you receive society's rewards, whether it be financial, whether it be societal. But if you didn't do well on the plantation, you didn't weren't allowed society's rewards. And part of my efforts to liberate myself from the plantation, it's also the mindset you have to have to survive and thrive in these spaces. In order to survive and thrive on the plantation, people who look like me had to operate in ways that are oftentimes completely counterintuitive to who they are, counterproductive to their psyche and well-being. And, I mean, not that you would have any kind of understanding of what that would mean, Jo, because, of course, you've been in spaces where if you're the only or if you're different, that's going to impact you, especially if you know that that difference is going to lead to you having struggles with being successful. And so when I left the plantation about 5 years ago, I have to say there was a period of time where leaving that w two security, leaving the benefits, and I'm talking about the health benefits, the medical benefits, the vision benefits. Like, there's all these benefits that they give you with staying safe on these plantations within the system. That the minute you come outside of that, they're like, yeah. You can leave, but you gotta take care of yourself on your own. It's kinda like what happened in, you know, the 18 sixties with the emancipation proclamation. It's like, okay. I'll free you, but now you gotta go figure this out on your own. And all of these different scenarios diminish and deplete, sometimes create barriers to our abilities to lead authentically. And so it after I left, I had a period of time where I had to figure out, like, who am I? What is it that I really wanna do? Because the only me I knew professionally was the me that had to survive in these spaces. And so leaving that, you have this whole other world was like, I don't have to, you know, do whatever that is. I don't have to I don't have to have a traditional workday. I don't have to start my day at 7 AM and end it at 5. If I wanna start my day at noon and it ends at 8, like, I can do that now. And so this even something as small as that, being able to say not feel guilty to take my kids to school or pick them up and take those breaks in time. Or in the evening time, I'm gonna split out my day for how I'm gonna work so that I can put my family first as opposed to, well, the boss said I have to be here during these times, and I have to do x, y, and z. So, you know, I can't pick you up or I can't go to this event. To me, that's all a way of living that keeps us from the freedoms that we say this country and the world is all about. Excuse me. You mentioned, Joanne Lockwood: as bless you. Sorry. You talked just looking back a bit to authenticity again. You you mentioned, you know, you're you're you're a mom. You've got your friends. You've got your girlfriends. You've got your you've got your work. You got 8 different you got 8 children, I think you said. And presumably, each one of those children is a unique human being, and they have their own sensitivities and their own ways of talking to them. So when we talk about being authentic, there's a danger that you are perceived as inauthentic because you're wearing these multiple hats and you're swapping between characters. So which one is the true you? And they can all be the true you. They're just different versions of you. Yes. It's the the core of you is your values and your core drivers that are the key factors of your authenticity. The fact you have to be situational, and you you talked about in terms of intent and impact, it's about context. You have to understand the context in which you're operating and communicating. So how how could leaders recognize that needs to switch hats and to switch personality types to be situational? Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Well, I think, first of all, in order to understand that, you have to understand that equity is one of my core values. And I define equity using the Jeff Duncan on doctor I'm sorry, doctor Jeff Duncan Andrade version, which is equity is getting people what they need, when they need it. And with his permission, I've added in the way they need it delivered. And so at my core, if if I am leading a situation, whether I'm leading a multimillion dollar organization, whether I'm leading my business or my nonprofit, whether I'm leading the girl scout troop or my sorority, or whether I'm leading my home. My goal as a leader is to serve. Right? And so my and so in order to serve someone, you have to find out what they need. Imagine if you went to a restaurant and the and the server just came and said, I got you. It brings you whatever it is that they just wanted to bring you because that's what they were serving that day. You feel like, well, why you give me a menu? Why did you like, what am I doing here? Right? And that's often the times the way people experience inauthentic or kind of blanket leadership, if you will. It's that people have these ideas of what they believe leadership should be, and then they go and be that thing. Or even worse is they'll get their ideas of what leadership should look like from those that they're not leading, I e your higher ups. So you have some boss or somebody who's telling you this is what your people need. If you ever have a boss that's telling you what other people need, first of all, run. Because, you know, it's like, where is the data, the information that I can actually get what my people need and be able to provide that to them? If you're truly leading for service, for equity, and getting people what they need, when they need it, in the way you they need it delivered, the first thing you'll recognize is that everybody doesn't even receive information the same way. First, they don't need the same information or the same support, and they're not gonna receive it in the same way. So I'll take it to something as simple as parenting. Yes. I have 8 kids. 6 that I birth, 2 are my free gifts with purchase. But I'll tell you the way that I sometimes have to talk with my 30 year old and the way that I have to talk with my 7 year old who have very different needs of me is different from what my 23 year old who's in law school needs. So I might pick up the phone, and my 23 year old needs to have a conversation about managing stress because he's in the middle of finals. And so he's gonna, you know, wanna tap into that part of mom that is saying, hey. I need to manage stress. Like, what tips do I have? I'm also dealing with somebody who has his own stresses and trials and tribulations. You kinda remind me of him, Jo, sometimes because he does. He wears the black nail polish, and he's just so different and eclectic. But, you know, he's his own man, and that's but he also has his own challenges. I am as his mother, at at that moment when he says, mom, I need this, I need to figure out a way to get him what he needs. Conversely, in the next 15 minutes, my 7 year old could come in. And all he wants and needs is to figure out what he needs to do with his chores to get that little, you know, box of Pringles that he wants. I know. So it's very simple to please 7 year olds. He's like, mom, did I did I do all my chores? I took out the trash. I did this. I did. Can I have my Pringles in my, you know, 15 minutes of video game time? So the conversation is very, very different with him. Now I'm gonna flip, and 15 minutes later, I'm now talking to my 30 year old. She wants to talk about life and maybe some things that are happening at work or, you know, some things that are happening in her current relationship or, you know, whatever it is. Again, I have to put on a different hat. She may even be talking about, oh, I'm thinking about buying a house. What does that mean? Gotta put on a different hat. My point of being authentic leaders is that if you're gonna be an authentic leader who is based in equity, you have to know the people that you serve and do what's necessary to meet those people where they are and get them what they need when they need it in the way they need it delivered. As a superintendent, my assistant superintendents had different needs than some of my directors, than some of my principals, and some of them are meant to serve each other. And so sometimes it's a matter of building up whether it's skills, whether it's capacity, whether it's courage, whatever it is that people need to build within themselves, you've gotta look at, okay, what are the skills or capacities they need? That's one piece of information you need in order to lead with authenticity. And then how did the what part of me do they need? How do they need me to deliver it? How does it need to be said? How are they gonna receive this in the best way? Perhaps what experiences that they had that I may need to take into account? Because the way that, let's say, I'm going to support my my very strong willed yet Muslim leader who is just coming out of Ramadan, and so she may be a little disjointed at work because she's had a hue like, kind of when we when those of us who are Christian come back from Christmas break, you wouldn't want your boss then come and say, okay. Now what's going on with this 10 point project that you've been off for 3 weeks? And, you know, give you a little bit of time to kind of get acclimated. So the way I'm gonna approach that person, let's say right now, may be very different from how I approach an equally competent, but might be a little bit more mousy and a little bit more sensitive in their receipt of information from the boss. So the way I'm gonna approach my strong will leader who's coming out of of a religious celebration, and so her mind might not be fully focused. He might little little bit a chance to acclimate versus the way I'm gonna approach my person over here who has a very different personality. And they may need the same thing. Let's say they need the same training or they need the same, you know, cultural connection that I need to help them make. But the way I'm gonna approach one person is gonna be very different how I'm gonna approach the other. I might or might not do it together. These are the pieces of authentic leadership. She's gonna need a side of doctor Shelley that meaning the person who is a bit more sensitive, I can't come directly at her. I might have to explain the situation and tell a story and help her see how she's capable of doing this and really able to do this well, and then, you know, kinda drop on her. And these are the things that I want you to work on. This person here may want it. She very strong willed, very direct. It's like, just give it to me, and I'll figure it out. So I might come in. It might be a very much quicker, shorter conversation, be directly to the point. I need you to work on how you're talking with our customers who may have strong accents. I've noticed on a few of your calls or your conversations that you may you tend to get a little impatient with people with accents, so I need you to think about that. Now she's got something to think about. Could have the same recommendation or thought or conversation with the this person over here, and I'm gonna approach it very differently. I'm still me. I'm still leaning with authenticity, but my approach is the words I use, the trainings that I do are gonna be totally different because my 2 people have very different needs. And I think that's a piece that people believe. If I'm not doing giving people everything the same way, which is equality, it's not equity, then I'm not being authentic. I'm not, you know, whatever it is that the story that people tell in their heads. And so I think this piece about understanding your audience is huge. Go ahead. Yeah. To pick up on Joanne Lockwood: that, you talk about your the different people in your team. We have to, as a leader, recognize you know, you talk about equity, and equity is not just around someone having a disability or workplace need. It's also about equity around personality types. Some people need to be bought into conversations. Some people need to have the dial turned down a bit. It will yeah, give other people the microphone for a second, or other people need to have a more emotional, less logical connection. So as a leader, we're also expecting not only this this contextual switching between different modes in different parts of our life, but also the context around the different personality types and different needs of our team to get the best out of each one of them. So, again, how do we learn these skills? How do I mean, it's we we we say that leadership is a skill to be nurtured and developed. So what can, an aspiring leader who listens to this podcast today think about how can they they can bring those skills to play in everyday life? The first thing I'll say to folks is get to know Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: the people that you're working with and not just their skill sets and what's on their resume. Who are they as human beings? And the reason that oftentimes this is counterintuitive is because to go back to that plantation conversation. On the plantation where we are, you know, sometimes creating automatons and Autobots and you're expected to do this, that, and the other, then personality and uniqueness is not valued. You're you're you know, how you feel about something is not a value. What is a value is your productivity. Well, what we have learned since then about people is that people are more productive in environments where they feel welcomed. They feel appreciated. They feel like people know them, where they know that the exceptions that they bring with their exceptional personalities and such and and their exceptional situations are going to be considered and appreciated. And that's how you're going to get folks. You know, I often get people who will ask me, well, Shelly, you know, you can get the folks that really do want to work with you. And I'm like, yes. Because they know I believe in them, and that same person knows that if something is going on in their lives where they need an exception or they need someone to understand, I want them to feel like they can come to me and let me know, and we can work through that. And so I would say to any new leader or any leader who's looking at shifting their ways or your team is just not quite operating in the way that you would like them to, I would ask them, like, what do you know about your people? What do you know about their likes, their dislikes, what it is that motivates them and moves them? I think we've gotten into this space that COVID has really illuminated for us where you know, I remember hearing this even when I would started working. You know? I know it was only 10 minutes ago, but but, you know, over 25 years ago, when I started in the workforce, it was, you know, when you come to work, you need to be a professional, and you need to do things like this, and you need to wear your hair like this. I remember getting my braids done once, and then getting called for an interview. And my mentor now my joy, I had just paid $200 to get my hair braided, and then they called me, like, a week later for an interview. And my mentor was like, no. You have to now take that $200 hairstyle out and wear your hair a certain way for the interview. And I just remember being devastated. Like, what in the world does my hairstyle have to do with me being capable? I mean, I went to Berkeley for for goodness sake. Like, really? This is what we're worried about? And the truth of the matter was it was very true. And so, you know, now we're getting into a place where people are no longer going to be comfortable just showing up and doing what you tell them to do. But if they know you know them, if they know you care, if they know you're concerned about the fact that they come to work to create a living for their family, not the other way around that they're working and then they have these lives on the side. If we can create spaces like that, they're getting to know one another. Storytelling is a huge piece of new leaders or people that wanna lead with authenticity. Find out people's stories. And when you find those stories out, you'll understand what motivates them. You'll understand what's beneath them. You'll you'll know their even their favorite coffee order or their tea order. Like, make time to get to know folks because the time you spend on the front end getting to know them, I promise you, mark my words, you will get that back on the back end in the amount of productivity that they will have because they're gonna work for you. Just like my babies in school when I would teach, my kids would do well because miss Jones was asking them to, not because they love math. Many of them couldn't stand math, but because they wanted to make me proud, they would do these things, you know, and make sure that they did well. Your people in your that you're leading are are oftentimes the same way. They would do well not just because it's, you know, the right thing to do, but because they they appreciate you as their leader, and they wanna make sure that, you know, you look good, they look good, all the things. But you may have taken a couple days to get Jo them in the beginning. You talked about, yeah, your hair being in braids. Joanne Lockwood: You've been to Berkeley and and so you you're you're a grown up. You're a grown up, aren't you? So you've been around a bit, you know, off on and off the plantation. You've been around a bit. So what we end up doing, and this is not specific specifically around leadership, we end up covering or masking or hiding part of our identity, and which can be a problem because it becomes very cumbersome in our in our cognitive load. You know, we we think about psychological safety as a concept. The principal foundation layer of that is inclusion safety, not having to cover, mask, or hide who we are, so we can let our authenticity out. Okay. Contextual, we can't speak everything. We have to have a reasonable adjustment here to to what's polite. But it's a it's a I mean, presumably, you've you've faced this this need to pass as well, probably in terms of not being too much of a black woman. You know, the angry, shouty black woman, the stereotype that you probably hear all the time. Yeah. And, of course, as soon as you raise your voice, you're playing into that trope and stereotype and people and you'll say, oh, I've gotta minimize. I've gotta not speak out. I've gotta hide myself. And Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: that's the mental I call them the mental gymnastics. That's the mental gymnastics at Invisible Work that many of our minoritized people are doing on a daily basis that quite frankly, it leads to lack of effective productivity. If I have to spend a a portion of my time trying to figure out which side of me you wanna see and how to become that person even amidst microaggressions and people saying and doing things under their breath. Because believe me, the same things that happened to folks in high school and middle school, we had that one person that was, you know, bothering you, but not but the teacher didn't see, and so all they see is you blow up. The same kind of nonsense happens in the workplace, unfortunately. It happens in schools. It happens in community meetings. Like, as my son would say, people will people, and they're just gonna, you know, do their people thing. And so as leaders, if we can model and bring to the table this idea that I want you to come as your best self. And so whatever the conditions are in this space that we need to create to bring out your best self, let's do that. And you see many companies nowadays that are considering that when Google and I'm not saying Google is the epitome of, you know, an ideal company when it comes to they're still on their journey, let's just say. Right? But when Google first came out and they had, you know, childcare and ping pong tables and workout gyms and all of these different amenities to make people feel comfortable in the space and be most productive. There were a lot of folks that were like, oh my goodness. They're just wasting money and throwing it away and all of these different speculations and opinions about that. Well, nowadays, folks are realizing if I want folks that are gonna be creatively minded and that creativity might come to them at 11 o'clock at night, I want folks to feel like they can do that and bring that creativity to the table. I don't want all of these barriers and impediments to get in the way. And what many leaders have to realize is that oftentimes you are the biggest impediment to the authentic leadership you seek. Meaning that if you're not showing up authentically, if you're playing the game, if you're playing the role, if you're playing into the system, one of the worst things we can do as leaders is when we're explaining something to someone about a change or something they need to do is use the crutch of policy or that's the way we've always done it as a way to convince people that this is the right thing or the the correct and appropriate path moving forward as opposed to instead say, okay. This is the problem that we have to face. How can we best approach this together, and what do you need from me in order to create the the the optimal environmental conditions to make this happen? That's a very different approach than here's the project, here's the policy, here's the expectation, you know, here's the deadline, Make that happen. Right? And and so we have to have this idea of authentic leadership being something that starts with us, and it starts with us pulling off that cloak of vulnerability and being able to say to to a team, which I've said many times, hey, folks. This needs to happen because, you know, we've seen the data. We've seen the the metrics. This change needs to happen. Now how we go about doing this change and the time frame that we work this in, this is where I need your thoughts and your creativity because I don't want this change happening to now ripple effect into other issues. Will you all take this on and help me look at different possibilities, and then we'll be figure out how we're gonna move forward together versus here's the change that needs to happen. Here's what I expect you to do. One is a much more dictatorial inauthentic approach that doesn't take into account the experiences of those closest to the work. The other one is much more vulnerable because I don't know what they're gonna come up with. I am not in control. I'm literally handing over control to those that are, you know, closer to the work. Again, fostering that authentic approach to leadership by modeling it as opposed to just talking about it. There's a word you used Joanne Lockwood: earlier, which I Joanne feel the undercurrents of it in in our conversation at the moment. It's it was microaggressions. And this mask and covering, meeting societal expectations, and having to be inauthentic for somebody else is also part of a living up to the microaggressions that have been put on you. So can you explain to people, maybe you've not heard that expression, how you perceive what a microaggression is and how it manifests sometimes? Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so in order to understand microaggressions, there's 2 other terms that folks have to understand. 1 is stereotypes, and the other is implicit bias. So here's how this this train goes. We have stereotypes about people who are different than ourselves. We also have stereotypes that are about those who are like us. So me being, you know, just to say a few of my identities, I identify as a woman. I identify as Christian. I identify as being a descendant of the survivors of the middle passage, which ethnically would be considered African American. So these are just a few of my identities. Right? And there are also stereotypes or beliefs that people have, whether they be about women, about African American women, etcetera. And stereotypes, many folks think that, you know, oh, if it's a positive stereotype, it's good. It's a it's a okay thing, and the negative stereotypes are the only bad things. Here's the deal. Any kind of preconceived notion about who a person is that does not take into account that individual is not okay. It is considered wrong. It is bad. Is it unhealthy? Right? So stereotypes, no matter if they are the positive stereotypes, like, you know, Asians are good at math and black people are good at athletics, again, those Joanne be very negative because if you happen to be of Asian descent and not good at math, then what does that make you? Right? If you happen to be of African descent and you're not as good at athletics, then what does that mean? And so stereotypes, all of which are not good, but everyone does this. So we all have to fight against these stereotypes that we are taught and are are are exposed to at very early ages. The reason we have to fight against them is because unchecked, your stereotypes lead to implicit biases. And these are unconscious beliefs that we have about people who that may or may not be correct. But if you are if you do not check your implicit biases, which are unconscious again, it's that unconscious thought that when brought conscious, sometimes you feel a little bit of shame around. Like, oh, okay. I know black all black women, you know, are not angry, but I just saw this lady who was a little upset, and I went to that angry black woman trope. Right? I gotta check my biases on that because just because someone is of African descent and happens to a female and gets upset at the situation does not mean they're an angry black woman. Just be and and so and you can go do that with any of the stereotypes that literally lead to implicit biases. When we have unconscious or implicit biases that we have not checked, we act on them. And where the and oftentimes, we act on them unconsciously. This when those actions oftentimes are clouded in this idea of wanting to be positive. So it becomes a compliment that is cloaked in the stereotype. So for example, I've actually had people say to me at a meeting where I did not speak or I spoke very measured, they would say, oh my gosh. You speak so well. You're so measured and calm in your demeanor. What they're really saying in that microaggressive comment is, I have stereotypes about Lockwood as being loud and angry and and uncontrolled, and you did not fit that stereotype for that box. Congratulations for not fitting my box. And not realizing that that microaggressive comment is actually an insult cloaked in the fact that I don't fit your stereotypes and unconscious biases. They cut microaggressions can appear very, very innocent. For example, saying to a woman who's blonde, oh my gosh. You're so much smarter than I thought you would be. So, basically, when I walked in here, you thought I was a dumb blonde. And because now I've opened my mouth and it's and helped you see that I don't fit that stereotype, you believe that that's a complimentary action that I've made and have decided to go the extra step of making that compliment, which is actually microaggressive because it reminds me that when I walked in here, you didn't think I was an intelligent woman, and now I had to prove myself once again. And so microaggressions are one of the most dangerous types of actions that go unchecked, unnoticed, and quite frankly uncalled out in the work in schools, in workplaces, and all kinds of arena. It's a simple I had one that happened today. My daughter was getting her braces off. And the woman who appeared to identify as white and I could tell she was trying to connect. Right? So let me just give you that preface. I could definitely tell she was working to connect, but in the course of connection with my daughter who's 14 and me, every other word was right, girlfriend? Oh, girlfriend. You're gonna be fine. And and so after a while, I'd say, well, she's yes. She is a girl, but she's not your friend. I'm not understanding why you're using that term. Oh, well, I was using it as a term of endearment. For whom? Right? And so until I brought it to her conscious level, she had to face the fact, well, you're black women, and I thought that that would be a way to connect as opposed to saying, hey. As black women, what's the best way I can connect with you? Because I don't wanna be insulting, but I tend to call people girlfriend. So I don't want you to be offended by that and think that it has something that's racially motivated behind it. Because when I saw her go to the other clients, she didn't call them out now. I'm one of them, girlfriend. So it what it it was actually a way that you believed. Again, a way that she thought she was connecting, but because I'm conscious enough to understand it, you it was definitely microaggressive. Now did I wanna make a big scene? Absolutely not. But these microaggressions are are different things that remember I talked earlier about the mental gymnastics that oftentimes minoritized populations have to go through. So now I have to sit there and process the fact that every third word is a microaggression. And, you know, so any mistake that she made is she made a little mistake one time. I'm like, oh, okay. So is that what because you sitting up here, you know, dealing with girlfriend as opposed to, what do you call her, trust fund baby? Like, what what what are the the different terms that we have for people based on their identity. Right? And so, again, often innocent, often not intending to cause harm, but they are the result of implicit biases that have gone unchecked, that are the result of stereotypes that you've learned over the years that have gone unchecked. So the solution is we have to check our biases, which means we have to check our stereotypes and really be conscious of the ideas that we have about people who especially those who are different, that we may act on unconsciously and can lead us to being part of the problem versus part of the solution. Does that help, you think? Yeah. I yeah. I think that's a a pretty good summary of, Joanne Lockwood: yeah, my understanding of my questions as well. I was also thinking as you're talking around leadership, as leaders, we're also led. So we we we play both roles. We'll we we lead and we we we are we are led. And not every great leader is good at being led. Is is that's also a skill to make yourself as easy to be led as possible because sometimes we we put all the responsibility for our management and our and to be led on the other person, whereas I also think as, having spent 60 odd nearly 60 years on this planet, I recognize that part of that responsibility is also mine. I Joanne be I can be easy to lead or difficult to lead. And, and I want to make the the job of my leader as simple as possible. And maybe that's me playing into a bias. If I'm easy to deal with, I'll get more favors. I'll get more influence, and I'll be Yep. I'll be have have have opportunities. So as leaders, we wanna we wanna encourage our people to be led well as well, don't we? Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: Absolutely. I often say, as a leader, you are the lead follower. And if you can wrap your mind around that, it go kind of goes back to what the example I gave of how we present problems or challenges to our team. Am I presenting the challenge with me having thought am I am I upper level team, if you will, having thought of all the solutions and then bringing it to our down level folks to implement, then you, I mean, you might call that leadership, but it's actually dictatorship. You're dictating to people what you wanna have done, and then you want them to do it. Leadership is a bit different. Leadership involves bringing out the best ideas from those closest to the work and creating the pathway. The reason you're in front is you're paving the way and making the environment safe and palatable for folks to come and do the real work. The best example I Joanne give, and I just realized what this work with is is curling. So you think about the person that's pushing the the big disk thing. I don't know what these things are called. So forgive my language, those of you who are laughing at me that are curling experts. But there are some people with some brooms in the front, and then they're pushing this big round donut looking thing Stone. With a Joanne Lockwood: stick stone or something. Yeah. There you go. See, I knew I wasn't out Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: of the word. So Yeah. So the bro the brooms are making room for the stone and the person there's someone behind the stone that's pushing the stone forward. So you would think that the person who is most important in this, not to say that there's, you know, levels of importance, but one would think and and focus on the person who's moving the stone. I would argue the people that are leading and paving the way and make and are really critical to this process are the people in front with the brooms. Right? Especially the one with that first broom because you noticed that there are 2 brooms that are going this way. If that first broom doesn't clear out enough of the debris or whatever it is that they're clearing out on the ice to where that second broom is doing more of the polishing and paving the way for the stone to come down, no matter which way you wanna work this, that stone is not going to be able to move. Right? That person with the first broom is the leader. So the leader technically that isn't doing the biggest part of the work. I mean, isn't doing what most people notice as the most important job, which is moving the stone because that's the the goal is to get the stone across whatever threshold. I mean, don't I'm not gonna act like I understand the sport. I just watched it and went, that's what leaders do. Right? But that first person with the broom has the most important job. They are the leader of this effort. They're gonna tell you what direction to go. They're gonna assess the ice in front and go, oh, maybe we need to go a little bit more to the left or a little bit more to the right based on what I'm seeing. Like, they're going to clear that path as best as they can. So then that person, that vice leader, if you will, that second leader that's coming by, they're gonna follow the path of the first one because they're not gonna clear a different path. They're gonna go right behind that first person, and then the stone has to follow in that direction to be most effective. That's exactly what leadership is. It's it's clearing the way for the real people that are closest to the work to do that work, and we have to be out in front, but also know exactly what's necessary in order to do that. Yeah. And just Joanne Lockwood: picking up on your current analogy there, if you actually watch what happens, what happens is the, they have a strategy meeting. They're Yes. They do. The the groomers and the the thrower, they're they're working out what their game strategy is. They they look at they look at the problem. Right? We're gonna lose. What do we need to win? We need to move that one out the way. Exactly. We set our 1 here and put a block in there. Well, this is a block shot. This is an attack shot. So they're having this little strategy meeting. So the the entire team is behind the mission. Yes. 1st who launches the stone, knows how far they want how hard they want to to to shove it or something to to deliver it. And then the as you say, the the 2 brushes are trying to angle it to get the trajectory onto that final drop spot on there. So that's the it's it's not a one person thing, but as you say, there's a leader there who's taking responsibility for the steering based on the trajectory, based on the plan. And, yeah, it's a it's a complex mission, not just throw it and hope. Throw it. Exactly. And Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: so when we talk about leadership, you know, I have to say you have to be that person that is willing because let's say that the person in front, that that leader doesn't agree with where they or the person who threw the stone throws it in the wrong direction. You're gonna have to change course immediately, and so that leader has to be the one to do that work. Again, not to beat up the curling analogy too much, but when we talk about lee knowing how to follow, that is such an important part of leadership and and being able to trust your team when they tell you this or is or is it going to work. Oftentimes, as a coach and a consultant, I go into teams, and I'm usually coaching the leadership. And one of the first things I ask them is, who is the expert on what we're trying to solve? And they'll and often times, they'll pause. I'm like, we need to get the expert on the call for whatever this problem's got. You're the leader, but you may not be the expert. Right? If we're trying to solve a problem that has to do with your human resources team, well, then who is your human resources expert that can help us understand a little bit more about what's happening on the ground level to ensure that we have a very clear picture of what we need to move forward. And then part of a great part of, of a integral part of leadership is then going back to those frontline workers and those frontline folks and having those conversations so that the decisions you make, you know, are reflective of the needs of those closest to the work. And that so that would be the last thing I would wanna kinda bring about is that leadership is nothing but decision making. And the decisions we make around people, around how do we move forward, around how we treat how we create the culture of how people are treated. Those decisions are some of the most critical parts of leadership, and sometimes we have people that are leaving those decisions on the table or by the wayside. But the decisions you make are very critical, and if you can make decisions in the best interest of those that are following you, you'll always have people, right, willing and able, to follow your leadership. That takes us back to one Joanne Lockwood: of the first words you said at the beginning, which was, courage. So as leaders, you know, you said that as a leader, decision making and inspiring, pointing people in the right direction, using the using the brushes to get the stone in the right place. It take it takes courage because not everyone's gonna agree with you. No. How do how do aspiring leaders prepare themselves for that? Well, again, I go this is where the academic Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: in me goes to what is the definition of courage. And so courage literally mean being courageous, literally means, Webster's definition, pushing past fear. That's what courage is. And so in order to push past it, you gotta be able to identify it. And so that it it case me back to what I was saying in the beginning, knowing yourself, knowing who you are, knowing your triggers, and knowing your fears. Right? Yes. I do a lot of work on diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership all across and with a lot of different identities. Right? And there is this thought process because you work in this space that has to do around leadership and, cultivating spaces that are healthy and productive for diverse people that I know everything there is to know about every diverse identity. Well, let me be very clear. I am still on the journey to liberation myself, and there are several identities I'm still learning about. For example, many of us, at least in the calif in California and me being new to the Michigan area, I had no idea about the Muslim holiday of Eid. No clue. No clue it existed. I knew about ram I had heard the word Ramadan. Let me not say I knew about it. I'd heard the word Ramadan. And even as a school leader, I knew it was a religious event. I knew and I was more concerned with what people need. And to be honest, I really didn't learn too much about the event because I'm like, okay. Tell me what you need. What is it? How is it that I can best serve and help? Well, being on this side of it and not having to lead the organization, I had time to really learn about the the celebration and what it meant. And my kids actually go to a school that is predominantly Muslim. So they had, you know, last Wednesday off. They have different holidays that, the traditional Christian calendar, which at first, I'll I'll admit I was like, oh my goodness. Like, a random Wednesday that they're off. Like, what's going on here? Well, when I started to delve a little bit deeper, I'm like, oh my gosh. This is amazing. This is wonderful. Again, I wasn't aware of what I didn't know. I didn't know my own the gaps in my own thinking, my own experiences. But because I'm a person who's open to learn, I was able to find, you know, this whole other appreciation for culture I did I didn't recognize, but I also knew I had a lot to learn. Right? That's one example of what you know, being a leader really is about knowing yourself and knowing, you know, the areas that you may not be as familiar with and doing the work of learning those. I've also, as a leader, I've been very transparent about the growth that I have in the area of our LGBTQIA populations. I'm still learning. Right? I identify as a heterosexual woman. That means I don't understand all of the different letters and what they mean and how people's experiences could be shifted based on where they sit and how they experience the world. That's an area of growth. I'm very conscious and open about it. If folks wanna help me learn, I am on the journey to learn. That's not anybody else's responsibility, though. And so, to teach me, it's my responsibility to learn. So if we are truly going to be those folks that wanna create that the world that we wanna see, we have to take responsibility for our own learning and our own triggers and recognize you're gonna make mistakes. It's not it's not if. It's when you screw it up, quite frankly. And how can you apologize ahead of time and go, you know what? I used the wrong term. I used the wrong pronoun. My apologies for that. I am on the journey. I'm really dedicated to growth and learning. How we, you know, create those environments where we speak our truth and are able to walk in that. That's where the true leadership, I think, is going to sit for the future. And the more that we can get people courageous enough to not just admit what you know, but also admit what you don't know and push past the fear of, oh, I'm gonna be judged or they're not gonna see me as a leader or whatever fears that you, whatever story you've written in your head that you're the victim of, because that tends to be what we do. We we are so all of us can be the victim of our own story. Whatever that story is, push past it. Lead from a place of courageousness and find your authenticity there. Find who you really are in that place of courageousness, and I promise you, you'll always have people ready and willing to follow your leadership. Geri, thank you. Absolutely fantastic. What a Joanne Lockwood: conversation. Thank you so much. How do people get ahold of you? Well, Dr Shelley Jones-Holt: I am definitely on LinkedIn, so please follow my LinkedIn. I'm also on Facebook at doctor Shelly Jones Holt. You can find my company, Leadership Legacy Consulting, online at www.leadershiplegacyconsulting.com. I wanna help you build a legacy of your leadership that you Joanne be proud of. What will people say about you when you leave? What will they say about you when you have the impact you've created on the space? Will people have to survive your leadership, or will they thrive because of your leadership? And so we talk about courageous leadership development, coaching, and support. That is what we do. And we are firm believers that leadership, it happens where you live, where you learn, and where you earn. And so because of that, the fact that leadership, authentic, courageous leadership begins at home, we also have our nonprofit, which is Family Legacy 5. You can reach us online at familylegacy5.com or on our Facebook page, family legis our Facebook group. I'm sorry. Family Legacy 5. And this is where we focus on courageous family leadership that leads to our children being the people that we know and that they can be. And so give me a call. I'd be happy to help you. If not, you know, for services, but just to have a chat and to get to know one another. I'm open to that as well, and it's been great getting to know you, Jo. Thanks, Joanne Lockwood: Shelley. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.