--- title: "Thriving Through Adversity" episode: 118 date: 2024-07-18 guest: "Oscar Hoyle" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/118-thriving-through-adversity audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-118/audio.mp3 --- # Thriving Through Adversity Joanne Lockwood is joined by Oscar Hoyle, CEO of Blossom LGBT, to explore what it takes for Gen Z LGBTQIA+ people to thrive in a social and workplace climate that can feel hostile. They discuss why many young people hide their identity at work, and how intergenerational gaps in technology, values and expectations can make belonging harder to achieve. The conversation focuses on what creates an inclusive workplace in practice: everyday respect (pronouns and names), psychologically safe cultures, and policies that draw a clear line between holding beliefs and discriminatory behaviour. Oscar shares how Blossom LGBT supports young adults through mentoring, arts and heritage programmes, and community spaces that build peer support and resilience. They also reflect on the role of media and "anti-woke" narratives, the pressures of social media, and the importance of providing safe, accessible, intersectional spaces that enable authenticity. The episode closes with a call to support Blossom LGBT’s work and to help build workplaces where people can belong and do their best work. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome. - 02:00 — Passionate about LGBTQIA+ experiences in the workplace. - 06:21 — Generational gap causes disconnect in workforce. - 07:34 — First-year GEN-Z executive struggles with social media. - 11:44 — Young adults shape workplace culture; collaboration vital. - 15:02 — Attracting GEN-Z with inclusive workplace culture. - 19:17 — Misunderstanding of "woke" due to cultural fear. - 22:49 — Media and politicians marginalize underrepresented communities. - 26:04 — Encouraging understanding and support for young adults. - 30:04 — Support LGBTQ+ youth for better workplace performance. - 33:05 — Equality Act: Protected beliefs and characteristics summary - 37:01 — Balancing belief expression with discrimination in workplaces. - 38:49 — Empowerment over negativity, spreading love and positivity. - 43:29 — Encouraging diversity and queer expression through art. - 44:29 — Exploring queer heritage, art, protest, and culture. - 49:17 — Balancing the importance of intangible community spaces. - 52:57 — Respect using preferred pronouns, intersectional, anti-racism. - 55:03 — Blossom LGBT sells consultancy to support youths. - 58:10 — Joanne Lockwood signing off, back soon! ## Key takeaways - The impactful role of seemingly minor acts of respect, like correct pronoun use and name changes, in nurturing an inclusive atmosphere. - Strategies for transforming workplaces into communities that go beyond formalities, aiming to provide a genuine sense of home and comfort. - The commendable efforts of non-profit social enterprises in supporting LGBTQIA+ youth through consultancy and skill-building programs, and how we can support these initiatives. - Techniques for bridging the generational gap in the workplace, fostering mutual understanding and collaboration among diverse age groups. - The evolution of workplace cultures that meet the values and expectations of GEN-Z, who tend to seek shorter tenures and alignment with their ethical standards. - The significance of diverse expressions through art, such as street art, and their contributions to societal narratives and individual emotional well-being. - Thoughts on the misinterpretation of being "woke," and the importance of challenging societal constructs to respect and empower individuals' identities. ## FAQs ### What is the Inclusion Bites Podcast about? Inclusion Bites is a podcast hosted by Joanne Lockwood that features in-depth conversations on creating inclusive cultures and fostering a sense of belonging. It amplifies transformative stories, challenges, and successes by engaging remarkable changemakers. ### What topics are covered in the episode "Thriving Through Adversity"? This episode features a rich discussion with Oscar Hoyle on the importance of creating inclusive spaces, bridging generational gaps in the workforce, the special challenges faced by LGBTQIA+ Generation Z, and the role of art in activism and storytelling. ### Who is Oscar Hoyle? Oscar Hoyle is the CEO of Blossom LGBT CIC, a non-profit social enterprise dedicated to supporting LGBTQIA+ young adults, through consultancy and upskilling schemes. He's a passionate advocate for creating inclusive environments, particularly for GEN-Z. ### Why is it vital to respect small gestures like using correct pronouns? Oscar Hoyle highlights that such gestures are crucial for creating an inclusive atmosphere where individuals feel respected and valued. It's a simple yet effective way to demonstrate support and foster a sense of belonging. ### How can I support the mission of Blossom LGBT? Listeners can support Blossom LGBT's mission by sharing their work, joining their campaigns, or reaching out to offer support. Every bit of help goes a long way in sustaining their efforts to create inclusive spaces. ### What issues do young LGBTQIA+ individuals face in the workplace? They often confront a landscape of hostility due to societal pressures, a lack of understanding around gender identity and neurodivergence, and long waiting lists for gender identity clinics, all of which can affect their mental wellbeing and career progression. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 118 with the title thriving through adversity. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Oscar Hoyle. Oscar is the CEO at Blossom LGBT CIC. They oversee 4 projects, a workplace mentoring scheme for young adults trying to get into work, an arts and heritage scheme to help young people feel engaged within their community, and a social and well-being cafe takeover, and also a business consultancy scheme. When I asked Oscar to describe their superpower and inspiration, they said that this is the amazing queer young adults that they see achieving absolutely amazing things in an incredibly scary and hostile environment. Hello, Oscar. welcome to the show. Thank you. Oscar Hoyle: It's a pleasure to to be here today and to say hello to you. Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely. Absolutely fantastic. We bumped into it probably within feet of each other many times, but probably never actually had a conversation before. So this is quite exciting. It is. And I think that's a reflection of Oscar Hoyle: the the small, weird, little world we have within the sort of LGBT and specifically trans inclusion space. Right? Joanne Lockwood: It it it yeah. It is. Yeah. Even though I often joke to people that there is no trans directory where we all know each other, we we all kind of we're one step removed. We all know of each other through people, if not directly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like Oscar Hoyle: a weird little family where everybody's an aunt that's once removed or Joanne Lockwood: Yes. It's a crazy haunted property. Oscar Hoyle: Yeah. Me too. Don't worry. But, Oscar, Joanne Lockwood: thriving through adversity is a pretty tough and hostile environment, as you said. Tell me more. Yeah. So when Oscar Hoyle: when I was kind of considering how what we could talk about, I thought it was so important that something that I'm really passionate about and that actually almost all of my career now centers around is the experiences of, you know, GEN-Z who are LGBTQIA+. And and with a quarter of LGBTQIA+ GEN-Z is going back in the closet when they enter work. It became very apparent when I started my career at Blossom that there's an issue here that people don't just hide who they are for no reason. Right? And when we talk about adversity at the moment, I see that in so many different directions for young adults at the start of their career. You know, you have a really hostile social and political climate for early stage career young adults. Yeah. Not only do you have the facts that the press is pretty hostile towards young people generally, you know, the narrative GEN-Z don't wanna work. GEN-Z are lazy. GEN-Z quit keep quitting jobs, and we can't work out why. Then when you add on that the the same hostile attitudes towards their identities as LGBTQIA+ people, often intersectional people who maybe experience disability or a person of color. These all add up to make a really, really difficult hostile environment for the young adults before they even get into the workplace. And then we see young adults get into the workplace. And, actually, there's a really clear generational divide here where where businesses and people who are working within an organisation are aren't necessarily gelling with the younger generation. And we've seen this for a long time. We spoke with millennials. But actually, what we see through a piece of Ipsos research is that actually, gen z are considered to have or be the furthest removed from what we would consider traditional values within a society. So knowing that there's such a gap, there's a real difficulty integrating this generation into the workforce. And, of course, you know, there are there's so many different experiences. I can't speak for everyone. But these two things I see as massive factors, yet throughout all of that, I see a generation of LGBTQA plus people who are, in often cases, absolutely smashing it when they have the tools to thrive. And big part of my work is giving them those tools. You know, I see young adults start their sort of journey with us. They're not in work. They're not in education. They feel incredibly shut out to actually seeing them go, hang on. Like, Oscar, this whole entry level work has been fantastic. But now how can I be a manager? And, you know, how can I set up my own organisation? I'm seeing a generation that's really hungry for success. And it's so interesting that despite being in such a hostile environment, despite not knowing any different to a hostile environment for a lot of them, they still are absolutely, genuinely doing everything they can to succeed. There's a wow. A huge amount. But I'm Joanne Lockwood: picking up on that is, you know, it's it's just that it's that massive disconnect between young people, the GEN-Z's, and, as you say, the the incumbent workforce. So millennials, boomers, Gen X's like myself. And you said there's there's a there's a lack of relatability. And, yeah, I I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a gen xer, so my my kids are are millennials. But I I I am aware of, you know, sort of the GEN-Z sort of, cohort coming through. And and it's it's tough being a young adult because I never I didn't have to grow up with a spotlight on me in terms of social media, in terms of it being expected to perform, to be popular in a way. And, you know, I think there's a huge amount now where young people have something that I never had. I I could go home at night, shut the front door, and I was pretty much safe Mhmm. Until the next day when I may get yeah. I have to face the world again. But young people today, they go at home, and they're even more unsafe than they are maybe in the in the real world because they got all of this social media pressure. Oh, I mean, a Oscar Hoyle: 100%. You know, something that I rarely say, because every time I do, I get scouring looks from people, is that I am the 1st year of GEN-Z, which, really does upset a lot of people, surprisingly. And being in such, you know, a chief executive of an organisation that's turning over roughly, you know, half a1000000 is a lot of responsibility for someone my age already. And then I I have a tendency to want to use social media because my generation has always used social media. Yet, I have a real difficult bad time balancing the two. And that's somebody who I believe as a person that's doing relatively well in in my career. I still sometimes put things up and I think, maybe I shouldn't have said that, or or finish a really stressful day at work and start doom scrolling through know, anti trans rhetoric on TikTok and think maybe that wasn't the best thing for my well-being today, but it's inescapable. And, you know, and I think, like you like you said, with this generational divide is that progress has been so quick. If you look at where we were, where sort of the oldest generation that's currently in work started work versus where GEN-Z's are in terms of technology, in terms of culture, in terms of politics. The the landscape is vastly different. There are, of course, lots of similarities, but we we're seeing a generation that's, you know, always had tech, that's always had access to the computers, that's always had access to a phone, and that expects everything to be quite instant and quite quick to the point where I employ people who are like, what do you mean you're gonna email me? The idea of an email is just completely redundant now, which is even a shock for me. So I think there's a massive gap between sort of one end of the workforce and the other end of the workforce that I'm not sure that we're doing in a fantastic job at bridging, or at least that's what the people I work with are telling me. Yeah. I I spoke to intergenerational Joanne Lockwood: consultant experts in the past, and one of the things they've highlighted to me is is is the it's incumbent on the older generation to reach down. We shouldn't be expecting the younger generation to reach up to us. So, you know, I I have to put the the work in to to understand the younger generation, not expect the younger generation to to meet me where I am. I think a lot of people forget that because what we see a lot of the stuff in the in the in the press, in the media, the toxic doomscrolling we do on Twitter and other places, is that it's it's the older generation basically telling the younger generation they don't know what they're doing. They're they're too immature. How how can they possibly know what's going on? And I whether it's around gender identity, neurodivergency, whatever it may be, there's this there's this belief that young people are not not mature enough to know who they are. Oscar Hoyle: Yeah. And and I think I I know where a lot of consultants come with that narrative that we need to make sure that we connect. You know, the older generation are reaching down. But I think I approach almost all of my work slightly differently where I feel that, actually, it's it's a mutual collaboration. We're not trying to create workforces where people are, you know, dictating how things are done anymore. That's that's that's changed a lot in the last sort of few years. And I think this this sort of culture of collaboration has to extend beyond getting work done and actually has to come into building teams and culture within an organisation. And I think, actually, whilst there's always gonna have to be an element of reaching down to bring people up, you know, when we talk about things like mentoring, sponsoring young adults, then, yeah, absolutely, that's reaching down. But I also think that, young adults have their part to play in developing a workplace as well and something that I think we need to move past sometimes with sort of DNI consultancy is this idea that it's them and us when actually it should be more about collaborating to create, you know, really healthy, and sort of community esque spaces, which I think speaks a lot to what GEN-Z are looking for. You know, we did a piece of research. We found that, I I believe this was Ipsos again, found that on average, a GEN-Zer will leave their job within 12 months if they don't fit in with, like, the the ethics and culture of the workforce. When we spoke to the GEN-Z audience that we work with, it was even shorter. It was 6 months when they're LGBTQIA+ and GEN-Z, which shows that they younger people are quite quick to move out of a space. And it's actually worrying when you think that, you know, roughly 1 in 4 GEN-Z is our LGBTQIA+. That's a quarter of the workforce every 6 months when you look at GEN-Z. And I think that we all have a part to play in developing a culture that we wanna work within a business. You say yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: I grew up in a generation where my parents effectively had a job for life. They were they didn't they didn't move around much. They didn't travel much. They kind of lived and worked a bus ride away or a walk away, yeah, in a dockyard, in the government, in the council, in a in a big traditional company. And they they kind of stayed there for life. I got I was probably the one of the first generation where you probably expect 4 or 5 years and then move on 4 or 5 years, and it was frowned upon if you move too quickly. And I've seen recent stats from The REC, The Recruitment Employement Confederation, where they talk around tenure moving down to 2a half, 3 years. So what we're saying here is is GEN-Z's are looking for, well, potentially 6 to 12 months worth of tenure. What what could organisations do to to try and get, I suppose, 18 to 24 months? Because presumably, they're moving on because they they want something more. What what is the more they want? Yeah. So Deloitte did a piece of Oscar Hoyle: research, and they classified gen z as an activist generation with regards to the way that they act both in their workforce and as a society. And I think you only have to look at TikTok to to see that's really true. Everyone has this issue, the social issue they care about whether or not they're working in the same directions. You know, actually, you still have a social issue and and it being not a very progressive one. But GEN-Z as a whole care a lot about their personal morals and ethics, and I think that creating a workforce where the the culture aligns with that moral and ethics is really important. But I also think that getting D&I right, so diversity and inclusion, as much as we might think, it's just often processes. Actually, GEN-Z is the most racially diverse, ethnically diverse generation on record as well. So I think to to really attract and retain GEN-Z, we're talking about developing cultures here which go beyond getting work done and really starting to bring the belonging part of what has been D&I, ED&I, EDB&I. Actually, this the belonging part is becoming increasingly important in a workplace because they want to feel part of something bigger and something that aligns with who they are and their values and morals. And I think that that really helps to retain people. You know, I see within my work only a small team, a team of 8. And when we did our last cultural survey where everyone anonymously feeds back on the working conditions in the organisation, All of my staff rated the fact that they loved work 10 stars out of 10 stars. We worked really hard, but it's the opportunity. It's the fact that we're working in a direction that aligns with their personal ethics and morals, which I think makes such a difference. And Joanne Lockwood: that's the fundamentals, isn't it? You you you need to be able to be well, the old adage of bringing yourself to work, psychological safety. It's about being celebrated with who you are, and the belongingness resonates in the mission of the organisation as well. So you're not you're not having to compromise your own personal values, and that's yeah. Oscar Hoyle: Absolutely. But I think also to touch on what you said around, you know, your parents' generation having a job for life. If you think about it, gen z are the 1st generation but are really going into the workforce, maybe millennials actually. And you're saying to them, you're gonna work your entire life, and you're probably never gonna own a house. You're probably not gonna retire, and you're probably not gonna have that much money to live comfortably. You're probably gonna earn about £30,000, which will about cover the council tax bill if you live in parts of the southeast of England. You know, I think because of that, because there isn't the prospect of almost using work to catapult your social and personal life, there's more of a need to integrate the 2 now. Do I mean, my my perception, I could be completely wrong, is Joanne Lockwood: that gen z are are multiple income generators. You know, they have their own they monetize gaming, monetize personal brand. They they have cottage industries. They're on Etsy. They're producing stuff. They're so their, yeah, their their day job is just part of their portfolio of of income generation opportunities, isn't it? Oscar Hoyle: Massively. Really. So many of the young adults that I work with, you know, one of them at the moment has been working really hard to get into the law industry. He's also a dog walker in the evenings, he's also selling little pendants that they make on Etsy, and I I think that's really common. I remember when I was starting out, you know, over the last sort of I've been doing this job now for coming up 5 years, but prior to that, we'd always have a day job and a gay job, which should be, you know, daytime corporate jobs, selling bathrooms for the most part, and then in the evenings was paid as a a youth worker for LGBTQIA+ young people. And I think, yeah, the idea of just doing one thing at a time is is gone as well because it's it's not it's not affordable to do that, really. No. I'm well, as a Gen X, I Joanne Lockwood: value my portfolio business, if you like. I I feel much more empowered now than I ever did in my traditional, old fashioned one job mentality. Mhmm. I love the ability to pick something up, do something with it, pick something else up, and have 10 different things on the go all the time. And it's, it's immensely empowering putting your eggs in multiple baskets rather than just having, this one income stream. Jo we we look at what's going on, you know, socially, politically, if you like. We I turned on gender identity, and I mentioned it briefly about neurodiversity. There is a we're scaring adults, aren't we, with these things? Adults get really scared that there's this explosion. How can we help adults to understand it? Or sorry. Older adults, not young you know, not young people, young adults. How do we how do we help older people get used to the idea that this is the reality of the world? Yeah. Well, I almost see this Oscar Hoyle: this anti woke narrative as almost being the the culture that a fear of not understanding has created. I mean, even to the point that actually the the meaning of woke is to be socially engaged and aware of others, it's actually not bad thing, but, like, even that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it actually means to be woke. I think the reality is is that these identities have always been here. You know, we can trace being trans back to the origins of humanity. We can we can see, you know, trans goddesses and gods within Mesopotamia, within ancient Egypt, within Rome. But for some reason, often, I think that that hasn't been on on the front foot. You know? Whether that's because of Section 28, whether that's because of criminalization, cultural norms, that it's just that whilst these identities have always existed, they've always been considered on the fringe. I think that where it's coming more into the forefront is because people have more of an opportunity to explore, to be themselves. We see such higher numbers of GEN-Z identifying within sort of different marginalizing categories. Whether that's the right term to use, I'm still not a 100% confident. And I think to bring people along on the journey, it's it's about creating empathy and compassion for these people. I I think that's the main thing that we're often missing in all of these conversations is that when I think when you know somebody who is trans or when you know somebody who's neurodiverse, you often have a little bit more compassion to what it means to be that. Whether or not you understand it doesn't necessarily matter. But the fact that you know, you know, Oscar, the nonbinary, is actually a lovely person as as long as you feed them and and don't give them water after midnight or whatever it is. Is actually a lovely person. All of a sudden, this this horrifying narrative that is, you know, trans people are harming children starts to fade into the background because you know somebody who is trans, who is a nice person, who actually means the world to a lot of people. That sounds like I was really sort of blowing smoke there. That's not it's just an example. No. I didn't have to use myself or my own name. But I think that is how we can really help to change the tide is to, you know, educate, but also to build empathy and compassion. No. I I don't Joanne Lockwood: think you're blowing smoke there. I think what what you're doing is you're trying to do what we all need to do is humanize the conversations Mhmm. By bringing a real name, a real person, a real lived experience into this conversation. But saying, like, you know, you can't just create this dehumanisation, this this this this myths and tropes that keep getting rolled out as as this nebulous group of activists. You know, if you look at they're all we're always described as trans activists. If you look at the pictures that are shown, it's always people with banners, placards with flags around them, not people sitting around a desk trying to have sensible conversations, and it's it's framing doctors and professors looking all smart over here, and activists being angry and shouting and being disruptive, and anarchic over here. And I it's it's playing into that. The voices of sanity is the establishment. It's young people being young people being radical. Yeah. Oscar Hoyle: And, you know, I I have to say, I do have a little bit of a soft spot for direct action. But I think I honestly feel as if, you know, why is it that politicians, regardless of party, the media choose to pick on trans people, on people with disabilities, on migrants. And it's because we're small. We're a small demographic of people, so there is much less of us to go around, which means it's much harder to build empathy and compassion into the conversations, and it's very much easier to profile a whole community. You know, when you make up less than 1% of the population, it's not that likely that a lot of people will know a trans person. And I think that's where the media, as much as right now, it can be, say, hostile against us, can also be one of our best tools in building that empathy and compassion and, you you know, especially things doesn't necessarily have to be television, but I feel TikTok, Dylan Mulvaney has a huge following. Regardless of what you think about what they the content they put out, what they put into this world, they are a role model. And they're a role model of a trans person and a a very early stage trans experience that actually people are witnessing for the first time, and that in itself is building compassion and empathy. So, yeah, whilst we were sort of talking at the start around how media is quite harmful for for GEN-Z, it's also a fantastic opportunity for them as well. Yeah. And as soon as Dylan popped up Joanne Lockwood: on whatever platform it was advertising swimwear or whatever, beer and all these other things, It's the the hate machine kicks in, and it's that's the reality of of putting a head above the parapet as a queer person these days. When Oscar Hoyle: Dylan wore the I don't know if it's Nike or Nike. So excuse me if I say it wrong. But when Dylan wore the Nike leggings and it upset, you know, Twitter, go woke, go broke was the narrative that popped up. Nike actually saw a spike in profits and ended that quarter higher than was expected on the stock market. So it's a really weird the loudest voice doesn't actually meet the everyday lived experiences. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The loudest voice tends to occupy the the wavelength. It doesn't that's that's the challenge where if you're a centrist, you're you're you're on the fence, you're not really sure, you often only hear the loudest voice, and that controls the narrative. And that's the danger that the minority view is actually becoming the loudest view and, and shout yeah. Shouting down and accusing young people of not knowing their own minds. And, I challenge anybody who's in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties to think back to when they were a young person and think about how they knew their own mind really. And they made some silly mistakes. They made some fantastic mistakes, but it was their mistakes to make. Absolutely. And I think when we look Oscar Hoyle: at young adults, we often when we do try to say you don't know what you're doing, like, you're, you know, you're too young, all we're really doing is making them wait to experiment because they're still gonna do it. They're gonna do it either when they can legally or in a dangerous way. You know, I think what we see so often in our services is things like young adults self medicating because they can't get what they need for the NHS or aspects like that. And and, obviously, that's a massive safeguarding concern in itself and one that you know, what do you do when a system is failing a young person? All you could do from, from our work perspective is re refer back into that same system. You know, it's it's a broken system, which actually I think the cast review for all its flaws really highlighted really well. But I feel as though when we say you don't know your own experience, you're gonna you know, maybe you're not Joanne. Maybe you'll detransition. Well, I actually, you know, from from the peep very, very few, but few people that I know that have detransitioned, they actually say that if they didn't transition in the first place, then they would never be the person that they are now and and that they needed to do that to actually learn what was right for them. And I think we we often jump to the extreme negatives with with this sort of thing. And, actually, it's really important that we're careful to acknowledge that young people do know themselves. They know what they need. And if we stop the process of exploration in whatever way that looks, we only damage them. Yeah. I think Joanne Lockwood: everybody has the right or should have the right needs to have the right to step out of the the framework of social constructs Joanne just step back and go, who am I without anybody imposing any rules? And being trans, being non binary, being neurodiverse, neurodivergent in some way is a bit the ability to step back and go, I want to have control and agency over my life. I want to have control about who I am, how I perceived, and things that matter to me. And I think too often in older generations, we've gotten this conveyor belt of life and not had the opportunity to press stop. Go hang on a minute, I'm going in the wrong direction. So rather rather I'm not saying I would change my life, but I I got to the age of 48, I think it was before I was able to push the stop button and pause, get off and go, right. Okay. Where am I heading? Who am I heading there with? Do I wanna go there? Do I wanna go with these people? Or do I have who who am I? And I'm not saying I would have made different decisions 50 years ago, but if I had the opportunity to to map out my life and know things were I was having career counseling, having destination by life counseling. Where do I wanna be? Yeah. Do I wanna be an electronics engineer? No. I didn't wanna be electronics engineer. I ended up doing that. And I think having the ability to step step off through and as you say, the cash report got a lot of things right. It got a I I always think I think some of the analysis was right. The conclusions were misguided or the yeah. The recommendations. So, yeah, I I think the the conclusions the the sorry. The the process of recognizing that young people need better support. Families around them need better support. We need better evidence not to stop people transitioning or exploring their identity, but to enable them to do it in a in a safer, more secure as you not going off on finding their own own advice on the Internet or drugs or or medication, but doing it within the bounds of a controlled environment. And that's not to slow them down. That's not to stop them. It's to enable them to do it safely with their families and society. And that's what Cass said right. But the wrong bit was effectively pun trying to put the brakes on everything. And then the demonizing language that came out of it as well. Yeah. And Oscar Hoyle: and I think what we need to be really aware of is that by putting the brakes onto this and to make sure that this podcast remains worky, is that if we put the brakes on in a young person's development, whether we don't let them transition or however that looks, What we're actually doing is impacting on their ability to perform when they get into a workplace. You know, how on earth can you do a good job when you you you finally have the opportunity to get into work, but you also have the opportunity to finally transition after waiting 10, 20 years. You know? Let's be real. Waiting lists probably mean that if we took the option away from children, that a lot of young people aren't going to even be seen by a GIC until that gender identity clinic until they're 25. So what we're actually doing here is hindering the careers of young LGBTQIA+ people, And I think this is something that we really need to be conscious of in workplaces and really be aware of is I I feel that through making sure that workplaces are prepared to handle this, if if that does happen, they're going to see a lot more loyalty within their workplace and a lot more sort of support. And I think, generally, if young people do have to wait that long, then making sure that they've got the right support in a workplace, it it it brings us back to this culture of belonging conversation, which is, you know, we we have to make sure that we're ready to support them when the politic political and media aspects are impacting on their childhood so soon? I think there was a a total jobs report. I think it was 22, Joanne Lockwood: 1920 sorry, 2022. And one of the things that came out of that was that 40% of LGBTQIA+, probably mainly the TQ+ element, are concerned about working in an environment where there are hostile views about them. And so we talk about belonging. Belonging, you're going in there expecting to be respected, to have peoples who have your back, who who you can trust. But if you're constantly looking over your shoulder, believing that there are people around you who effectively wanna see you eradicated as a human being or people like you, that's really damaging. So workplace culture has to create a safe space where people can be themselves. And that if people do hold critical views that are abhorrent and not part of polite society, then there has to be really good policies and protection for these people. And, you know, we've seen the 4 starter employment tribunal where they effectively green lighted misgendering and and and stating truth and doing air quotes at this point. Air quotes. Or we we or as we might say, perspectives or opinions rather than truth. And if you know you're working with people like that, you're not gonna feel great coming to work every day, are you? No. Absolutely Oscar Hoyle: not. And I think a conversation that I have with a lot of my clients is where is the line. And it's something that I don't feel as if I can personally tell a workplace where their where their workplace line is. But when I look at my interpretation of the Equality Act, which is assured by Equality Act Lawyers, is that holding a protected belief or protected characteristic doesn't allow you to discriminate against another protected characteristic or a protected belief just because you hold it. So as an example, we know that if somebody was running a a person of faith was running a bakery, they they couldn't refuse to service an LGBT couple just because they're LGBT. And I think this is what we need to be really mindful of when we're creating these workplace cultures, where we are creating policies and processes. Those people are a 100% entitled to a belief. There's a real difference between holding a belief and actively discriminating against an individual. And I think this is what workplaces really need to be aware of and how they need to draw the line is you can create, you know, you can create both. Whether or not that creates an environment that I would want to work in, absolutely not. Personally, on a personal level, I wouldn't wanna be involved in that. And you can see why a lot of GEN-Zs will leave a workplace when they see that. But a workplace can very carefully curate a space that is very psychologically safe for trans and non binary people without actually harming anybody. And it's a lot of work. If you'll get policies right, you have to create culture and and make sure that people are there to each other. But I I almost feel as if by the time a workplace has got to the point where colleagues are hostile towards each other, that the belonging element and the cultural element of of this piece has already been missed. The boat has sort of sailed, and, actually, it's more so about reining that back in now, creating a space where we respect each other as people who have a job to do, who work together. I'm just starting from that fundamental level of mutual respect that we need to pose to everybody is, I think, the most important part to get right, but often the fundamental that I think has been completely missed by the time we see things like agenda critical staff network being set up in the civil service as an example. And that's directly Joanne Lockwood: hostile. It's not passive. I mean, it's it's you know, you talk about protected beliefs. You think about people's different religions and different faiths or lack of, and you think there are there are a number of different principles in most of the major religions around deities, gods, symbols, icons, all these various things. And they tend to coexist. People aren't trying to convert people to different religions within the workplace that that different faith groups are happily coexist Mhmm. Under one umbrella. And even people who who don't hold a a religious belief are able to coexist with people who hold those beliefs. The difference, I think, when we talk about people who are in the queer community, gay, bi, lesbian, or people who are trans, is that's around a person's, like, personal experience, lived experience. And it's someone weaponizing their belief to deny someone's right to exist as a human being. I'm not I'm not attacking your god as such. I'm attacking they're attacking me as an individual and saying I'm wrong to exist. And that I'm abhorrent. I I don't meet society's norms. Therefore, I shouldn't be allowed to exist. That's the challenge. It's the weaponization of that belief that the workplace is gonna be gotta be really mindful about. Oscar Hoyle: Absolutely. And and I think this is where we come back to workplaces having a line, which is, you know, where can somebody hold a belief, and where can somebody express and and directly discriminate because of that belief. You know? Actually, I I used it as an example a minute ago, probably maybe not the best one. But when we look at having a gender critical staff network within the civil service, again, very different between a group of people that have a shared belief meeting to share that belief versus advocating for the reversal of rights or workplace access to systems and processes. They're very different things, and I don't know how that one operates, so I couldn't speak on that. But I think this is where I'm coming from is that, yes. I mean, I I I wouldn't personally want to be in that sort of space, but I can see how you it can be done in a way that doesn't necessarily harm everybody. But it's so difficult when you have 2 groups where one just straight up doesn't believe that one has a right to exist. That's very, very difficult. And, I'm I'm playing the the, the politically neutral tight rope here. So you can put it out. No. I that's and I I we're Joanne Lockwood: not we're not trying to get into mudslinging here at all. No. That's not what we're trying to do. We're just trying to raise awareness. And because, you know, you talk about the the civil service network, and we also see that mapped out in society with some high profile charities or organisations who are now charities also being their sole purpose is to oppose the existence of trans people. Absolutely. It's a weaponization again. It's not a passive thing. This is a weaponization of eradication. Yeah. And Oscar Hoyle: but I I I almost feel like all of that being said, a lot of what my work involves and a lot of what I do is actually about empowering people to thrive despite you know, to bring it back to the theme of this podcast is through through Blossom LGBT, at least, we we very rarely directly pick up or respond to, you know, anti LGBTQIA+ content, behavior, press briefings, whatever it might be because we're far more preoccupied in celebrating what we can do. Because I always think that what what better way to kind of remove the hatred, the negativity, the hostile opinions and voices that just, you know, celebrating what we can do and saying, yeah. Okay. You stay in your corner. You you have your opinions complete you, whatever whatever you wanna do. But we're out here going to spread love. We're going to spread positivity. We're going to uplift each other. And we're gonna thrive together. And I think that's what I really want to make sure that I channel my energy into is uplifting positivity and boosting each other. And I think, you know, for a long time within my work, I I was I did the opposite. I felt like I had to directly combat transphobia and I think a lot of people do. But actually, I've kind of got to the point now where I'm thinking, what's the point? People can have an opinion. Fine. But I'm gonna make sure that they can have their opinion. But trans and non binary young adults can still thrive despite their opinion. And it's a journey that I'm on that I definitely don't have an answer how I'm gonna do that a 100%, but I think we're making really nice sort of waves in that space. Yeah. I think I think that's so right. Joanne Lockwood: It's, there's a line in an animated film called total Hotel Transylvania 3. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but there's a line at the Oscar Hoyle: end. First one. Yeah. Well, there's a line at the end of this one where Joanne Lockwood: someone's one of the characters says, "you've gotta be greater than the haters". Yeah. And I always hold that to heart that, you know, when there's hate around you, when there's people who are against you, around you, it's about being able to lift your head up high, smile, and be able to move on. But that takes a huge amount of resilience and personal strength to better plinker that out and block it out and rise above the hate. And I can imagine a lot of the people you're helping here, because they've grown up with social media. They've grown up this online content. They've grown up reacting to comments on social media. It's hard to to deescalate them, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. Oscar Hoyle: It really is. But I think that's why when you said about the 4 projects that we have at Blossom, you know, we have the workplace mentoring and all the employability stuff nicely over here, and then we have the arts and heritage, and we have a social cast. Actually, those free projects won't work without the other because what we see and what we're doing is focused on building those peer to peer support networks Jo that when things do get difficult, actually, you have a group of people around you that are here to listen, that, you know, you have a supported support network and trusted people who you can say, oh, I had it really tough today, you know, for whatever might have happened, happened. And you have a group of people that say, okay. Fine. That's really tough, and I'm really sorry. Let's talk about it. Let's get a coffee, and then let's do something together that actually gets us out of that mindset. And I think that that's where why we're trying so hard to make sure that I suppose that the word is is our workplace support is holistic. It's that it's not just mentoring to get someone into a workplace. It's building resilient support networks. It's building, you know, confidence in your ability to be outspoken through art workshops. Sits, building your connection to the community so that you can see that whilst things aren't great at the moment, this isn't the first time that the LGBTQIA+ community has been under attack. And I think all of these together builds a strong person or a stronger person that can also be sensitive, that can also display weakness, that can also ask for help, but can find ways to cope with how difficult things are. And I think that's what GEN-Z really need is that interpersonal connection that social media isn't offering that we're trying so hard to build through this work. I suppose the arts and the work you do there must Joanne Lockwood: be really important because we we we're often bombarded with cisheternormative visions of art, of media, whatever it may be. And I I remember a few years ago, I was when I was I was a trustee of Sparkle, the National Transgender Agency for a while up in Manchester. And one of the one of the Sparkle weekends, what we did was we, we got some queer art experts, and and we did gallery tours reimagining arts through a queer lens or a queer eye. And it was really, really insightful for me to hear things being reimagined through a queer lens, not the narrative you we see. And, yeah, we we we know we we see the the straight view of the world all the time, the the the cis view of the world all the time. But so the work you do with the art, is that is that encouraging people so you encourage people to express their their identity, their queerness, their neurodiversity, whatever it may be, through art? Yeah. It's a really nice Oscar Hoyle: combination where, you know, myself, and Shivani Dave, who's my project manager there, and spent a lot of time in the Bishopsgate Institute looking through their archives to, you know, look at pieces of our heritage that are so important to us, and we bring some of that knowledge to it so that we have sort of a more holistic kind of a a more wider understanding of the culture and the context that we were in at the time. But we also look at how criminalization, negative social attitudes have played a massive part in hindering what could be really important queer pieces. So you look at The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde. The whole play is a massive sort of play on on bisexuality or or potentially having a wife to cover up homosexuality. And he talks about having I can't remember the names, but, you know, being 1 person in the city and 1 person in the country, and and I I used the made up word to describe that. And this is all kind of the sort of thing that we're exploring with our young adults in one sense. But then we're also exploring things like how art and protest have gone hand to hand and how we've often used our, you know, all the way back to the fur well, before, but an example is the first pride flag was a collage of fabrics and encouraging them to explore, you know, what what does your protest look like? What's your protest are as well? So it's it's a nice combination of kind of, you know, querying existing art that should have been queer to begin with, but also recreating new art in a way that expresses needs and experiences. Joanne Lockwood: The graffiti is is a classic example of street art that, expresses passion and, if you like, activism of pushing back, fighting back against the establishment. And, there's some beautiful street art around the east end of London, Brick Lane, all those sort of places. And even around Walkaloony, in most places in London and other cities, you see some great examples of of it's not even so graffiti can be angry. This is art. This is this is not angry. This is just expression. And I think it's absolutely fantastic that local councils are almost encouraging the street art to develop in a controlled way, obviously, because you want it everywhere, but, yeah, in a way where people can appreciate and see and hear people and what they're trying to express to the world. Oscar Hoyle: Absolutely. And I I think art has always been such an integral way of our storytelling as as a society and and as a community. I think that you look at any sort of era in human existence, art has existed in some form, and it's often been a way for people to express their experiences, emotions, or feelings. And I think that actually, art plays such a a huge part in our ability to kind of emotionally regulate, to communicate, collaborate, that we really need to make sure that we do place a focus on it. And whilst it might not feel like I'm directly talking work here, it's a fantastic coping skill. Yeah. And I'm also drawn to the fact you you you Joanne Lockwood: have this, cafe takeover. And I think, again, that that safe space, the ability to be able to drop in somewhere. Mhmm. And know this is my space. It's it's for me. You know, we talk about belonging. And whenever I talk about belonging, I always I also go back to the the seventies or eighties sitcoms, a brand called Cheers. I don't know if you ever ever seen it or heard it, but it's it's a it's a bar where everyone knows your name. I think it's set in Canada, and there's some very famous people, Ted Dancers and Kirsty Alley, were in the early days. And it that's all my was my idea of belonging in that bar, that cafe, that place. You know when you walk to a cafe and sit in a chair drinking your coffee with your friends, you know that's your place. You really know it. But you go to another cafe and you know, hang on a minute, this isn't my it doesn't it's not my I can't I don't feel relaxed here. So being a drop in somewhere is really important, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, I have people when Oscar Hoyle: we set the cuff takeover up, we thought that people would maybe, like, pop in for a quick cover and then leave. So not been the case. People arrive before we actually open the door. And I feel like some nights, I have to shove them out the door at the end of it because the space is so important to them. And I've had people turn up who actually, the space is the only time of the week where they're their authentic self. They they turn up wearing sort of one clothes. They disappear into the bathroom, come out a completely different person. I think, actually, just providing that space is almost I don't wanna say the most important thing that we do, but to the people that use that space, it probably is. And I think I have a constant battle because what I'm doing as somebody who's leading a nonprofit is needing to justify something that is completely unmeasurable to a funder to create something that's measurable. You know, we've tried all different interrogations of this space. We've said it's a a well-being space where we'll work work on people's well-being. And they're like, okay. What well-being activities are you doing every week? And, you know, how is yoga helping this person? And it just completely destroyed the space. And we often miss these spaces. You know, we're seeing LGBT venues closed down across the country. So I think we're kind of like the opposite of that. We're we're a space that's only growing, that is is still struggling to find its way to carry on. And that's one of my, I suppose, biggest issues right now as the CEO, funnily enough, is that we have a our mentoring scheme is running so well, so smoothly. It has a really clear purpose. Our arts and heritage are the same. Just providing a space is the most important thing to a lot of these people, but it's the hardest thing to do as a nonprofit, which I find fascinating and frustrating at the same time. Yeah. I mean, I I cast my mind back Joanne Lockwood: probably 10 years in a bit where I was just trying to explore who I was. And those spaces are incredibly important, especially in the early days where you're you're that confident. You're worried about being discriminated against. You have developed your new robust and resilient. If you like, you're still nervous and about stick and feeling stigmatized. So having a having a queer bar or a a a district, you know, of Kemptown in Brighton, or you got SoHo areas in in London as it was. But I used to go to the, it was the Triangle in, in Bournemouth where the Flirt Cafe is. It's it's the kind of LGBT triangle right in the middle of Bournemouth. So I used to go to the Flirt Flat Cafe quite a lot. And I remember every time I walked in there, it was like just the clouds lifted just walking in. I've had a sense of relax, and it wasn't overtly queer. It was just well known for being a really open and inclusive space. Mhmm. And you see the same way you yeah. The flag outside the building or sticker on the window. You you know, if I walk in here, I am gonna be accepted. There'll be people in there. If something happens, they've got my back. The the the owner, the bar staff will keep an eye on me and make sure I'm okay. So you have that feeling that when you walk in there, as if you're going into just the average coster or the average Starbucks, you you you you're pretty sure you're gonna be okay, but you just don't know if anyone's gonna look out for you. It's like kicks off. And that's the difference, isn't it? Oscar Hoyle: Oh, absolutely. And and it's the little things like the microaggressions just not being present. You know, like, to use your example going into Costa, I don't think a a barista has ever used they then pronouns to describe me, not that I would necessarily expect them to just by looking at me in that fleeting moment. You know, I'm very lucky to have the privilege of of being, you know, a side male at birth and and still passing that way, Although I would prefer not to. That's that's a whole other whole other topic for a whole other podcast. But, you know, it's that little thing that in our space, you ask for a coffee, and they're gonna say, sure. Absolutely. Oh, look. You've got a pronoun sticker on, so I'm gonna use those pronouns. Jo, you know, I'm not gonna tell you, oh, yeah. The ladies are just behind that door or, you know, or just little things like checking in to see, oh, you're still using that name because I know that you've changed your name a few times in the last few sessions. So what should we do? And I think what we've done in this space is created that mutual sense of respect where the people that are coming to the group know how important the group is to them Jo they make sure that they treat everybody else in that way too. And I think that is often mirrored in a lot of LGBT spaces. The difference for us is that we've made sure from day 1, the space is really intersectional. So, you know, we have a zero tolerance approach to racism. All of our staff undergo race equity training. We make sure that the venue is a 100% accessible, and that has made a massive difference to that sort of sense of belonging in these spaces too. And we can flip that straight into the workplace as Joanne Lockwood: well. It's the same Absolutely. Isn't it? In the workplace. Yeah. Absolutely. You Oscar Hoyle: know, I I I I feel like we often act as if this work workplaces are a microcosm where everything has to be very different in a workplace. Everything has to be formal and process driven, and and to an extent, absolutely. But, actually, what people need in a workplace, they also need a home. They also need in their social life. They also need in their professional life. I think that, you know, this sense of belonging, this sense of equity where they receive what they need, all is reflected across every aspect of life. And I just think that perhaps for too long, we've seen workplaces being a place where you come, you sit in front of a desk, you do your job 9 to 5, nothing else. And if it that's that's the difference now is that people are waking up to the fact that they need to expect in a workplace the same things that they would expect in a personal life. Excellent. Oscar, this has been an amazing conversation. Joanne Lockwood: We've been yacking on for an hour now and and a bit bit beforehand. How do people get hold of you? This this has been this has been brilliant. How how could people get hold of you, and what could they do to help you? Yeah. So, our website is blossomedotlgbt, Oscar Hoyle: and I think that there's 2 elements to it. Right? If people wanna really support us, it's about actually buying things from us. So Blossom LGBT is a nonprofit. It's a legally registered nonprofit, but we're a social enterprise. And what we do is we take the words, the opinions, the voices of the LGBTQIA+ gen zeds that we work with, and we translate that into guidance for businesses. We in turn sell consultancy and upskilling schemes ranging from training, cons bespoke consultancy, project fulfillment, and a 100% of the funds that we get from that go back into funding our work with, with the young adults. So from a business perspective, you know, that's a really important way to support us. But from a more personal perspective, supporting our mission can be as little as sharing what we do. It can be joining our campaign. Our new campaign launching very soon is called Blossom in the Workplace, where we're encouraging people to sort of share their stories, their tips, their advice for GEN-Z is joining in, and that would be amazing. And also just reach out. Say hello. You know, we never know where conversations can take us. I I'm not one of those people that say thinks to myself, you know, if you're not gonna give me £500 to book a training session, I don't want anything to do with you. I wanna talk to people. I wanna learn and talk to others, whether you could join our mentoring scheme as a mentor. There's so many opportunities to get involved. So I just reach out, blossoms.lgbt. We're on pretty much every social media except Twitter because we left that, or directly contact me on LinkedIn. It's Oscar Hoyle on LinkedIn. Fabulous. I'll put all of those details Joanne Lockwood: in the show notes, and, I'm really passionate about what you do because it's so valuable. I know that young people are currently taking the brunt of a lot of this this societal pressure at the moment, let's say, around gender identity or do you neurodivergence, whatever it may be. There's a lot of misunderstanding, myths, and lack of support and lack of resources, and they're feeling under under pressure. And I the work you're doing is extremely important to, to give them the resilience and the hope and the opportunity to succeed for who they are. So it's a lot. Oscar Hoyle: Absolutely. And thank you, Jo. You know, just sharing your platform with me is amazing, And but also the voices that you amplify across your work is just so important. So thank you. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.