--- title: "Infusing Empathy" episode: 117 date: 2024-07-11 guest: "Fiona Dawson, Rita Hallgató" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/117-infusing-empathy audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-117/audio.mp3 --- # Infusing Empathy Joanne Lockwood is joined by DEI and storytelling collaborators Rita Hallgató and Fiona Dawson to explore what it means to “infuse empathy” into workplace inclusion efforts. They discuss how personal storytelling can help colleagues understand one another beyond surface differences, and why creating trust and psychological safety is essential if people are going to share lived experience in a corporate setting. The conversation also looks at the current backlash and budget cuts around DEI, arguing for a shift in mindset from viewing inclusion as a cost to treating it as an investment tied to better people experiences, retention, and performance. Fiona shares lessons from her filmmaking work, including projects spotlighting transgender service members, and how those experiences translate into creating spaces where people feel seen and heard at work. Rita and Joanne consider practical levers inside organisations—such as breaking down silos between DEI, HR, and marketing; building authentic ERG participation; and improving inclusive hiring—so inclusion becomes embedded in culture rather than treated as a standalone initiative. Across the episode, the central message is that empathy is not just personal—it’s a foundation for sustainable culture change and more inclusive leadership. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introductions and Welcome - 02:00 — Rita and Fiona merge powerful superpowers in corporate DEI. - 06:15 — Advocate for inclusive positive people experiences. - 09:29 — Connecting through interviews, creating symbiotic exchange. - 11:02 — Inspiring film empowers people to be themselves. - 15:13 — D&I budgets face uphill battle in business. - 19:17 — Working at WeWork, engaging with Equality Texas. - 23:17 — Corporations have power to influence societal change. - 25:46 — Businesses should utilise marketing budgets for DEI. - 27:55 — Founders focus on business before inclusivity. - 31:14 — Listen to people, focus on real problems. - 35:53 — Fostering communication, collaboration, and authentic content sharing. - 39:21 — Marketing needs more inclusive representation for LGBTQ+. - 43:05 — Global military approach to inclusive workforce, challenges. - 46:53 — Focusing on policies, not just diversity numbers. - 50:02 — Creating inclusive environment for all by sharing stories. - 51:22 — Increase self-awareness, help others, take action. - 55:52 — Commitment to values, influence through consumer power. - 58:24 — Expressing gratitude for inclusion, inviting further engagement. ## Key takeaways - The critical role of straight, white, cisgender men in diversity initiatives and creating empathetic corporate climates. - Essential strategies for enhancing self-awareness, taking courageous actions, and cultivating awareness of others within organizations. - The importance of collaborative over competitive approaches to building inclusive work settings. - Filmmaking as a tool for creating vulnerable, safe spaces that allow for personal stories to inspire corporate change. - The intersection of corporate policies, inclusive storytelling, and their collective impact on diversity and inclusion budgets. - How businesses can leverage influence to advocate for updated equality policies and infuse empathy into their cultures. - The societal significance of consumer support for businesses that align with their values and the broader message that hate does not ultimately win. ## FAQs ### Why is it important to include straight, white, cisgender men in diversity initiatives? Including straight, white, cisgender men in diversity initiatives is crucial because true inclusion means engaging all groups within the workplace. Their involvement expands perspectives, enhances self-awareness, and demonstrates that diversity is not solely a minority issue but a collective societal endeavor. By being part of the dialogue, they can support systemic changes and advocate for inclusivity using their own privilege. ### What does Fiona Dawson's work reveal about the importance of storytelling in corporate training? Fiona Dawson's work showcases that incorporating personal storytelling into corporate training can evoke empathy and understanding. Stories humanize experiences and foster a connection that facts and figures alone cannot. They create a safe space for individuals to learn about diverse experiences and the impact of inclusive or exclusive environments. ### How can businesses create more inclusive leadership teams, according to Rita Hellgató? Rita Hellgató envisions that businesses can create more inclusive leadership teams by implementing policies focused on inclusion and diversity, rather than merely reporting on representation numbers. Prioritizing personal storytelling and empathy can help leaders understand the lived experiences of different groups, leading to more equitable and accessible workplaces. ### What are the challenges facing diversity and inclusion initiatives in the workplace? Challenges include diversity and inclusion budgets being cut, the need to change leaders' approach to inclusivity, and opposition that views these initiatives as unnecessary expenses. Additionally, there is a necessity to shift the narrative to view D&I as an investment with substantial, measurable benefits. ### How does the US military's treatment of trans individuals relate to broader themes of inclusion? The US military is highlighted as an example of a large employer of trans individuals, indicating a spectrum of inclusivity based on unit leadership. This serves as a microcosm of broader societal issues, where treatment varies widely, and policies may lag behind in providing equal opportunities and support for trans and intersex individuals. ### What role can consumers play in fostering inclusivity? Consumers have the power to support businesses that align with their values of inclusivity and diversity. By choosing where to spend money, consumers can endorse companies that are actively working towards societal transformation and reject those that propagate hate or exclusion. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 117 with the title infusing empathy. I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome 2 guests today, Rita Hallgató and Fiona Dawson. Rita and Fiona are collaborators in D&I and storytelling. And when I asked Rita to describe her superpower, she said it is her impossible dreams and the strength of other women. And when I asked Fiona, she said this is her ability to listen and make people feel heard. Hello, Fiona. Hello, Rita. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Fiona Dawson: How are you? Joanne. Hey. Well, as I Joanne Lockwood: said, this is my first venture into a a threesome, I guess. We can call this my first, polyamorous podcast if you want. So let's see how it goes. Yeah. My my show notes have gone out the window. We're off piece today, so anything can happen. So Rita, Fiona, infusing empathy, who wants to go first? I'll jump in first, I think. Fiona Dawson: Are you wanting to know how we infuse empathy? Go on. Tell Joanne Lockwood: me your story. Yeah. Tell tell me your story. You're a DIY story. Tell tell us more about yourself. So Rita and I started Fiona Dawson: we realized that we are super our superpowers naturally come together to be able to have a really powerful impact when it comes to corporate DEI work. So my background was in corporate diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and accessibility. And then in 2010, I left the corporate environment and started off being an independent filmmaker. I have always recognized, of course, as many people do, the power of personal storytelling to be able to help build empathy and touch hearts of minds and, like, create change. So rather than lecturing people too much or, you know, criticizing people for not understanding or calling them haters, Instead, my work kind of pulls away from that, and I create films that help people feel someone else's lived experience so that you can find things in common and therefore build empathy. That work that I started doing has kind of merged into a corporate space. And so last year, Rita and I were working on a really cool project together, making a short film for a client who has international operations, and we got to create a film together for this client to be able to use for internal distribution. And we realized that our skill set and our background was just such a nice marriage as it were, where I'll let Rita talk about, you know, where she comes from. But we found that when we can put these two perspectives together, we have an opportunity to be able to work with corporations and corporate D&I programs in a pretty unique way and actually move corporations towards creating short form story content and focusing on values and lived experience in order to help employees internally understand one another despite their their perceived differences and help them realize they actually have a lot more in common than we realize on the surface. So it's, extremely rewarding work. We get to get to know people, like, at an emotional level, and help them be more intimate with their personal storytelling than people are typically afforded within a corporate environment. So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Wow. I'm, Joanne Lockwood: I've got loads I wanna talk about there. Rita, do you wanna dovetail into, yeah, your part of that equation? Yeah. Just to add to Rita Hallgató: that, like, I have been in the corporate HR international corporate HR world for over 15 years, and I've gone independent, last year, early last year. And I noticed that D&I obviously has been a hot topic in the corporate environment, even before that. And what I'm seeing is that we've not made enough progress. And sometimes it feels that we're going backwards, in D&I and in our initiatives and approach. And, you know, I might even say that we're approaching it wrong. We're focusing on the wrong targets. And I'm seeing a lot of businesses still in 2024 looking at diversity as the means, Whereas I think we should be, aiming to create an environment that's inclusive, equitable, accessible, that makes people feel they belong, which then would result in diversity. And whilst working in this project together with Fiona, we realized that, you know, we share the same values. We share the same view in how we see we would approach D&I in the corporate workplace. And I believe personal storytelling is exactly the means that companies can potentially use and and and build empathy and and and even compassion. So that's that's where we started collaborating. I love the way you used the word feel. And I'm a I'm Joanne Lockwood: a a passionate advocate and believer that people feel included. They feel belonging through culture, through the environment. Now I always say that inclusion is how you make people feel by how you treat them, so how we treat people in terms of how they they fit into the organization. And I also agree with what you said there about the DEI is the input, the output, and I would describe it as positive people experiences. You know, you have a positive experience of working with me, working the organization as a customer, as an employee, as a stakeholder, shareholder, whatever it may be. It's about focusing on that outcome because we all wanna be treated positively. And I think that's where we get caught up with the wokism or the anti woke stuff we get caught accused of. We're not trying to change the world. We just wanted my everyone have a a better experience in life and and workplace. So that that what you said there was really, really resonant. And, if you don't know, I mean, I I I've been both sides of the camera. Yeah. I've been I do a lot of professional speaking, a lot of stuff in corporates. I even took part in Channel 4 UK documentary a few years ago as well. So I'm used to having people sticking a lens in front of me and saying, how do you feel? And it's kind of It's a tough gig sometimes, isn't it, building that trust? Fiona Dawson: Yeah. No. It it is. And, like, I and also for your audience, I'll explain where I am in the world because my accent is very British, so I'm aware of Channel 4. But I have not lived in the UK since 1998, and I lived and volunteered in Bangladesh for 6 and a half months. I was in Portugal for a year, and then I ended up in Houston, Texas in the year 2000. So I've lived in the US now for 24 years, eleven and a half years in Houston, moved to New York, 9 total in New York and DC, and then back to Texas. So in my filmmaking work and capacity, I didn't go to film school. I just literally quit my job make my dreams come true, and there you go. And I had the good fortune of connecting with people, and I'll specifically name, like, Gabe Silverman and Jamie Coughlin at Side by Side Studios. They collaborated with me on the trans military project that I started in 2012, where we were sharing stories of active duty transgender service members in order to raise awareness that they were still banned from the US military, and that project lasted around 8 years or so. And so it was through that experience of working with Gabe and Jamie that I learned some of the practical aspects of filmmaking. So I've somehow become a a direct a film director, but I love being on camera as well. Like you, Joanne love hosting stuff. Like, I'm working on an unscripted show that I that I host. But I think that when it comes to creating a space for people to feel comfortable sharing how they feel, Of course, the foundation of that is trust, and I had to had to learn, but also I think that I know my personality is that I do create a place where people can feel vulnerable because I am willing to be vulnerable too. Like, I'm willing to share parts of me, and I think that when we do that, it can be symbiotic. It's like a dance. Like, I love interviewing people because I love forgetting that the the cameras are around, the lights are around, and it's just me and that one or sometimes 2, 2 people that you're interviewing, but it's like a dance and, like and you're connecting with the eyes and, like, you just allow to that person and elicit their story. And, you know, I'll share, you know, parts of me too, and it's like an exchange. You know? I don't think you could expect someone just to pour their heart out if you're not willing to pour your heart out too, And, of course, I have to create space where I'm not taking over. It's not too much of me, but somebody who's creating an environment, excuse me, somebody who's creating an environment for somebody else to share has to be able to share themselves as well. And, that's what I found in this work, you know, and if now, like, maybe 14 years of making films and it's, it's very, very powerful, and I think that you you see the audience's reaction afterwards, and, like, with the trans military work, we had the short film on the New York Times, and then the feature documentary premiered at South by Southwest, and so I went to a lot of different film festivals. And after watching those films, like, the number of people in the audience that will come up to you afterwards, thank you for doing the work, and thank you for sharing the stories. And I had so many people who privately came out to me after watching the film. So you like, you're in a theater and, like, you're the the film director, and they're coming up to meet you. And there were several people throughout the year of touring with that film that would kinda take me aside and whisper that, you know, they're trans and they're early in their transition, and no one really knows. And thank you so much for sharing these stories because it helps me see that I can be out. Like, I can be myself and, you know, our characters as they were, you know, who are real people, They their stories inspired other people and helped other people feel less alone. So it's it's really awesome to now, like, take that experience of being an independent filmmaker and take it into corporations because most people go to a corporation or go to some business for their job, and they spend more time there than they do at home. And so why would we not take this work into a business where people are? You know, I want to affect change, and so I've got to take it to where people are the majority of the time. And it's just a really beautiful experience. I've I've got so much I wanna dive into there, Joanne Lockwood: but let's let Rita chip in first before we, come back. Yeah. To Rita Hallgató: just add to Fiona's words, I mean, corporate workspace is such an amazing place where personal storytelling can work in 2 ways. It can be educative, but not in like telling what people to do, but you know, using empathy and, you know, using personal stories to to share how people, you know, feel in their workplace. And there are a lot of businesses out there who are very inclusive, you know, who are very accessible. You know, people feel they belong, and and it gives them the opportunity to show it to other people inside and outside of their company who I think, you know, you could benefit more from using personal storytelling. And on the other side, I think it helps businesses who are very early in their inclusive journey, to to learn more about, you know, how they how they could make make it more inclusive. And Fiona is amazing at that. Like, I mean, my surname literally means listener, but I'm not a listener. I'm not really good at that. And I sat through interviews with Fiona, you know, listening in the background as the executive producer. And the safe space she creates is amazing, and and it's truly truly amazing to to listen how she connects with with the people she interviews and and shares their stories. Thank you, Rita. Yeah. Yeah. We have a a Joanne Lockwood: mutual virtual hug here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So whereabouts in the world are are you, Rita? Are you Texas as well? Or are you, somewhere else? Rita Hallgató: Jo. I'm actually based in I'm based in London, but I yeah. I'm originally Hungarian. So obviously, people can hear my accent. Some people can even guess that I'm having Eastern European accent, but I've lived in the UK for about 12 years and a year and a half in between in India. But yeah, I've spent almost a third of my life in the UK so far. So, yeah, I'm based in London. They were all kind of displaced because I was originally born in Joanne Lockwood: Singapore. I didn't live there for long, but I was originally born in Singapore. So I guess I'm not living in my country of birth either. And that that shared that shared sort of lived experience. It it's I think it's remarkable that you've you've you've both fallen into what you do and together. I'm I'm I'm conscious about the fact that, you know, Fiona, you live in Texas, which isn't, from an outsider's perspective, isn't the most tolerant of of administrations within the state. And, Rita, your your Hungarian background, we we can all see a lot of challenges emanating from Hungary and certain Eastern European countries and the attitudes of old. So do do you find that you're having an uphill battle to push against maybe the infrastructure where you're based, or or do you find it's quite an Joanne open door you're working I got you a person on reach. Or a meet to get person. Got it. Yeah. I mean, I think the D&I space is an Rita Hallgató: uphill battle. Like, you know, we've all seen that D&I budgets are being cut. And it's kind of, you know, the same uphill battle as in a lot of other things, but, in in the corporate world. But we're definitely seeing fellow practitioners, and D&I colleagues telling us, you know, how they would love to do a number of things, but they, they aren't able to because, you know, when when budgets are tight, unfortunately, D&I budgets are the first to to be cut, even within the people budgets. And and it's really sad to see, but at the same time, I think it it gives us power, more power to fuel into myself, to to push back and to maybe educate leaders that the way they've been thinking about D&I is not the right approach. And and because I think a lot of leaders expected initiatives to bring immediate results, and it did not happen because the approach has been wrong. And it's not a it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And I think that's where the early learnings, you know, for fellow D&I practitioners came from when, you know, we all started doing bits and pieces, and and we realized, you know, hang on. This isn't gonna bring meaningful change. And now we're facing this challenge that I think a lot of us now know how we would approach it or how we should approach it, but now we don't have the budget. So it's a bit of a catch 22 situation where where I think we are finding our way to make this work in the corporate environment. But now a lot of the lot of the in house D&I practitioners don't have the budget. So, yeah, definitely an uphill an uphill battle. Yeah. We see I mean, I Joanne Lockwood: see a lot of rhetoric in the obviously, I'm UK based at the moment. A lot of rhetoric in the UK press around the government talking about D&I initiatives are a waste of money. They haven't delivered the benefits. All this kind of pushback. And I think even here, the same from the US in certain, you know, government issues. They're pushing back against EDI, D&I training. I think you you both made the point that people went into it without the right expectations, without the right momentum and longevity. They're not tracking it. They're seeing D&I as an overhead, which why we're seeing budget cuts. We're not seeing D&I as an investment. In the same way, we see maybe leadership development or the people space. It's always still seen as an investment often. So I think we need to move that narrative from seeing D&I as a cost and a hassle and and a wokeness and a and a and a sojourn we have to sort of fight our way through to actually leveraging productivity, happiness, discretionary effort, reduce hiring costs, reduce turnover, reduce onboarding, all these kind of immediate, which we can quote Gartner and McKinsey and all these stats that the cows come home. But a lot of companies just don't get it right, do they? And I think the storytelling you're approaching it with, for me, is key. Listening to the impact you're gonna have with people's lives. Yeah. When you say, Laffy, I know it's people coming up to you afterwards having experienced the content you're producing and with a tear in their eye with the story to tell back to you. That must be immensely empowering. Yeah. It Fiona Dawson: is. Like, just, oh my gosh. Hearing you say those words until I got chills and getting emotional just thinking about it because it is. And you can't separate that experience from a workplace as well. Like, I think for traditionally, you know, workplace has been where, you know, leave your personal life at home, leave your feelings at home, leave everything else at home, work, go to work, you know, be a machine at work, and then and then go back home, and, like, we know that doesn't exist anymore. You know, that model of the workplace, you know, is is gone, is vanished. And I think, like, going back to your point about where we are in the world, you know, I'm in Austin, Texas, so it's the capital of Texas. I actually happen to be in a WeWork that's on congress, and I can see the state capital from from this building. And so I am faced with the politicians in Texas on a daily basis, and I personally love being in this place in the world because I feel there is so much great work to be done. I do work with, Equality Texas. Like, that's the one not the nonprofit that my company, Freeline Productions, does work for, and we're helping educate, entertain, and inspire through personal storytelling with Equality Texas. And I think that talking about both in the UK and in the US and states across the US, how, like, DEI is being canceled and gotten rid of, I personally believe it's not going away. It's just shifting and it's got, you know, it's gonna probably be labeled something else. But when you're talking about people development and leadership, you can't have a leadership training if you don't talk about the just diversification of your workforce. Like, from stats here in the US, like, 1 in 5 Gen z identifies as LGBT. You know, the future is very queer. Not only here in the US is it very queer, you know, white people by numbers are gonna be less than 50%. I mean and that's just a fact, but we're all, like, spiritual beings having a human experience. We just happen to be put into different human needs. So, you know, so it's like, if you want to be a leader, you're gonna have to educate yourself on what these humans are going to look like and behave like and be culturally raised in order to have a successful workforce, in order to have a successful business. And, you know, Rita and I know, like, studies show that when you have an inclusive environment, it's better for your bottom line. Like, we've known that for a long time. But instead of going, oh, it's better for the bottom line. Therefore, I need to hire this many, you know, black people, this many gay people, you know, this many people living with disability. And if I get them all together in a room, then we're gonna make lots of money. And, of course, we know that's rubbish. It doesn't work like that. Like, you've got to be able to be less afraid of bringing vulnerability, kindness, courage, empathy, joy, fear, sadness, grief, all these things that we all experience. Let's talk about them at work as well. I mean and that's when you start to create a space where people can be seen and heard. A lot of people say they don't like labels, and I can understand that, but labels help you find each other. You know, I'm a very out and proud bisexual, cisgender, immigrant woman living with a non apparent disability, and I'm gonna give those labels so that somebody who's also living with one of those identities knows that I can relate to potentially to their experience, and we can talk about it. And and that's that's what we I think we need to to bring into that environment. So, you know, one more thing I'll say, then I'll stop talking because I really just feel like I'm going off in multiple angles. I just think that we're living in a time of the universe, of the world, of society, where there are massive shifts happening. There's a big change, and change is extremely scary to lots of people. And so if us as d DEI practitioners, storytellers, people who build empathy, if we can help carry people through change and help decrease that fear, then I think that, you know, we'll create places where everybody can, be happy and live in joy. And with you, yeah, I mean, Joanne Lockwood: we we should all be queer meat sacks. I think that's probably a good way to look at it, isn't it? Yeah. Exactly. Rita Hallgató: Yeah. And, and Kionna talked about, yeah, Kionna talked about society. And I think it's super important to remind ourselves that corporations have the ability and power to influence broader changes in the society. And I think we, or people in corporations and especially people in leadership tend to forget that, that, you know, everything starts somewhere, and big companies have that power. And leading by example is super important in businesses because that's where we're able to make broader changes and, you know, changing the society from the individual's perspective is is a lot more difficult. But if you look at, you know, the big enterprises and the way they make changes in their policies that affect, you know, their employees could have easily a broader impact on the society. So that's why I believe that we do have to focus on educating and helping corporations to really bring those changes and not just pay the lip service because that's where we can then influence bigger bigger changes and and not just, you know, in the UK or in the US, but in places like Hungary as well or in, you know, other other countries. We've we've seen examples Joanne Lockwood: where the power of the corporate voice, if you like, for want of a better word, corporate allyship. We've seen it with in Florida with Disney. We've seen it with the bathroom bill in the US where corporations basically pulled out. Was it South Carolina for a while and said, we're not gonna operate here if you're gonna have these discriminatory tactics. We've seen people putting pressure on Bermuda and places like that where ships are are registered, where they ban gay marriage. So we've seen that going on. We've seen other regimes being, you know, if you like, ostracized Myanmar and places like that in the world where they they look yep. Queer rights have been pushed back. But then we see governments such as the UK government and the potential next US government, almost red light or green lighting, sorry, anti trans and anti gay type rhetoric. And it it's we we need to stand up as a as a as a as a corporate nation, if you like, because my time in corporate life is very welcoming. It suddenly becomes messy for me in in in pits of society influenced by the government sometimes, and I think that's that's the struggle. So, Fiona, you wanted to dive in there? I wanted to add something as well, like and I Fiona Dawson: totally agree that, you know, businesses, corporations do have this opportunity to continue their leadership in this space. And when it comes to budgets, you know, when a DEI budget is cut, really, I would love to see marketing teams jumping in. Like, marketing teams typically have much, much larger budgets than DEI, and I think that here in the US where a few companies, particularly last year, were kind of, like, in hot seats based upon their actions with DEI, like, if marketing and DEI were communicating really, you know, in in foots in step together, then a lot of that I think could have been very different. And I think with the work that Rita and I do, you know, when it comes to filmmaking, I personally would love to work with a marketing team and a DEI team, but the marketing team with a DEI perspective because those budgets are gonna be able to fund the kind of films that we're making and the animation that we're making. It doesn't have to be labeled DEI, and I think people you know, marketing teams will spend 100 of 1,000, if not 1,000,000 of dollars on flashy ads and that kind of stuff. But for a smaller budget, you could make an authentic independent film and have incredible impact. And I I just think that there is so much opportunity that's out there. This is this is not like a desert. Joanne Lockwood: So, Basa, I understand you you work with a lot of start ups and, entrepreneurs, buildings, you know, building hope hopefully, hyperscale businesses. They have the ideal opportunity to to start with EDID and Inclusive Leadership at at heart, but often often often they're founded by a tight knit pair or small group of of college leavers or whatever it may be. And it's often hard for them to bring other people into their mix in the early stages. So how do you encourage businesses like that to embrace the power of of of of of of more of of a broader demographic? I mean, it's Rita Hallgató: it's not easy because when founders start their business and, you know, they try and make it work and they they try and build a viable and long term sustainable business. Often, you know, the people part is important, but it's not the number one priority. Like, you know, they they would hire people who will help them to get to that next stage to to to achieve that goal. And in an ideal world, it would happen along with a long term people strategy where they are building a sustainable work place from the get go. But to be fair and honest, small businesses, you know, struggle a lot at the very beginning, and I don't think D&I and sort of inclusion proactively comes into the picture before they reach 60, 70 employees. And, you know, I don't blame them because they have so many things to be worried about. And and and, you know, we don't get to see those businesses that don't even make it to this stage Joanne and a lot of them don't. But there's definitely an opportunity and and not by, you know, they don't need to hire a D&I practitioner or a or a senior people leader from the get go, but there's definitely opportunities for those founders and leaders early on to educate themselves and to be conscious and mindful about how they are going to build an inclusive workplace. And what I'm hearing and seeing the most is oftentimes leaders don't know where to start and that's that's another problem, right? Like, okay, I want to build an inclusive workplace, but where do I start? And, and, and that's what makes it, makes it difficult. And I think us as fractional people leaders like myself, you know, have this opportunity to to support these founders and and build that workplace. But it's it's unfortunately in a very, you know, difficult business environment. It's not a not an immediate priority. Yeah. I I've I've experienced very similar Joanne Lockwood: in some of the works work I've been doing. It's a shame because what we're effectively saying is D&I isn't important until I can afford it. Where we should be saying Yeah. D&I should be integral to the founder's mindset at the very early stages because you can't afford not to do it. You know, when we talk about these businesses struggling or not growing or not not succeeding, is it because they haven't got that diversity of mindset? They they're they're giving living in an echo chamber. They need to broaden their horizons on that. Yeah. And it's I think it starts with Rita Hallgató: this, you know, small simple things. And and a lot of these founders might still think, you know, with numbers in their head, with diversity in their heads. And how many times we heard, oh, we don't want quotas. And it's exactly it's not it's not what they should start with. If you think about inclusion, you start with policies. Right? Look at all your policies. How inclusive are they? Are they allowing your employees to be their true themselves to be, their true themselves? And are they allowing them to feel belonging and and is your workplace accessible? So there are some very easy, you know, starting points to look at. And then secondly, it's talking to your people, listening to your people. And I've had an amazing colleague who, taught us, you know, don't fall for the solution. Fall for the problem. And I've seen that a lot, especially in the HR world when and in the D&I world as well, when when when those leaders are like, oh, I've got this great idea. Let's implement this. But is that really a problem in your business? Do you really need that? Whilst, you know, going in a different direction where you ask your people, you know, what do they need? What would make them feel more included in your company? And there you go, you've got your actions. And so I think it's simple. It's just the approach where we put diversity away as the means and we focus on how do we make this place accessible, equitable, and inclusive. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's it's really hard though managing diverse groups of people. I mean, I'm I'm the chair of a board of a professional association, and I've got 9 people with vastly different backgrounds, thinking styles, ages, genders, and perspectives. And it's really hard to to chair that board sometimes where you're trying to allow everyone to have a voice, move things on, reach consensus, and if you like, work with the disagreements or work with the differences of perspective to bring that harmony where togetherness where we make a decision that we all stand behind. It must be really hard, you know, as you say, in a startup environment where founders wanna, you know, in quotes, get shit done and make things happen. And they've got all these people. They've gotta say, oh, I've gotta be nice to them. I gotta be nice to them. I just wanna just wanna get on with this. Is that is that some of the challenge there, Rita? Yeah. But I think it's Rita Hallgató: a challenge everywhere. But it's like it's a sprint. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. And so I think we need to approach it differently as well. Like, you know, do we want an an immediate decision and a and a consensus which, you know, might lead to some results? Or do we actually allow others to to add their input and feel heard. And yeah. So I think it's it's a difficulty in every any workplace meeting, whether it's a small emerging business or a large corporation. But I love working in those challenging environments because that's how I learn. And I think if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable in the sense that, you know, I don't know how to, let's say, moderate a meeting like that because there are so many different kinds of people in there. But I'm going to allow myself to be open to that experience and see how it goes, then we might actually get something more meaningful out of that. Maybe it takes a little bit longer, but it would definitely, I think, bring greater results. Thank you. Fiona, you you you Joanne Lockwood: talked about getting marketing involved, and that really that really resonates. Because I'm thinking here, brand. Brand is owned by marketing. And when we talk about recruitment, we talk about employer value proposition. We're talking about recruitment marketing. We talk about Joanne and culture have to figure very heavily in our marketing strategy and in our recruitment strategy. We're not gonna recruit people who don't resonate with our brand. And what what we tend what what I, in my experience, what I tend to find is when people are going through the hiring process, the the the hiring manager or the hiring team have a disconnect of priorities with the corporate objective. They're trying to fill an empty chair. They're trying to get their project done. They're trying to make something happen. And they'll they'll just go, oh, here's a CV. Let's hire them. Or, yeah, I know somebody, and we we all the best inclusive hiring practices go out the window because I've got a CV on my desk and they'll do. And for the priorities, you know, hiring velocity, cost to hire, and the experience. You can't have them all high. You gotta spend more money to get better experience or or slow down. So I often see recruiters and the hiring managers breaking away from the corporate objective. And what we really need as a practitioner, I always say, I need to jump leapfrog the hiring team and talk to comms, talk to marketing, talk to HR, talk to the DEI people, and get them to do a pincer movement on the hiring teams and say, okay. Now we need to think about how we can hire more inclusively in a more in a more contemporary hiring process than just the way we've we've done it, which means we always end up hiring the people we've always hired. And that's not to say they're not the right people, but that we haven't had the choice to evaluate whether they're the best people. Is that Right. Us back into marketing? Yeah. I I mean, I think that Fiona Dawson: with all of this, it's kind of breaking down as many silos as you can within an organization and ensuring that all of these different teams are communicating and collaborating together. And I think that comes down to creating a culture and an environment where that happens organically and starting off potentially with, you know, workspaces, whether people are physically at a building or whether they're online or whatever, be able to create, as Rita was saying, like, an accessible environment physically and culturally in order, you know, for these conversations to happen. And I think if you, if you want to take it back to marketing and the external comms, I think sharing content that is actually authentic and actually genuine and isn't just, you know, placating to an audience and, you know, somebody thinking, oh, you know, we want to I'm gonna use LGBT again because it's my world, but, you know, we wanna we wanna hire more LGBTQA plus people, therefore, you know, we're gonna go sponsor this thing at pride, and we're gonna create this ad with this, you know, cute couple of, you know, 2 genders and that way we're gonna attract all the gays. And it's like, Jo. Let's take a step back. And let's, you know, create content that has more of organic authentic feel to it. And the one of the tools that comes to mind is creating really strong ERGs, you know, employee resource groups or BRGs, business resource groups, and being able to engage the employees that you already have and make sure that those ERGs are also intersectional. So a lot of companies will have, you know, a pride ERG of veterans, people with disabilities. But all of us human beings, in addition to being meat sacks, we can use the analogy as icebergs where only 10% of who we are might be, you know, apparent above the surface, but most of who we are is is unapparent and beneath the surface. And you don't belong just to 1 ERG. You know? You've got multiple identities. And so I think that starting with those ERGs, you know, and then bringing people together in collaboration, making sure that marketing is including ERGs in their decision making, you know, potentially start off with sharing stories of people that belong to ERGs and kind of, like, growing up from there. And to, you know, reiterate what Rachel was saying about it being a marathon and not a sprint is, like, always bear that in mind. Like, just the smallest little action can sow the seeds of really long term significant change and making sure that it is always authentic and always comes from heart. And it's not just checking a box because they think it's the right thing to do. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I from a meat sack point of view, I don't think anyone's ever shouted out from the rooftop. We need to hire more trans people. Mhmm. But they they we don't fit on their Noah's Ark sometimes. You know? The Noah's Ark has to have black people, white people, disabled Right. Disability. Maybe some gay people, maybe some lesbians. Well, we're not sure about bisexual people. Oh, what about the bisexuals? Yeah. I mean, do you wanna talk about the Fiona Dawson: bisexuals? I mean, could that Let's go there. Yeah. Let's go there. Well, I I mean, for me okay. So I'll share something. So when it comes to marketing, for example, say you're marketing to the queer community and oftentimes when people are represented, like stock imagery, for example, like stock imagery could do with a bit of an injection of inclusion because they naturally go to, oh, let's put, like, 2 men, and I'm gonna use, like, binary gender language. Jo we've got 2, you know, cute guy cute guys that are gonna be assumed to be gay, or we've got 2 women that assume to be lesbians. But how to get bicep how do you represent bisexuals in that imagery? Because any of those people could be bisexual. And if you have, you know, content where you've got somebody who is presenting, you know, female or male gender and then another, you know, female gender, they're not necessarily straight. You know, one or both of them might be bisexual. And then if you wanna really go further, like, what about families that have more than 2 adults in their makeup? You know, where do they belong? Going back to Rita's policy, like, here in the US, your health care is dependent upon your policy. What about families that, you know, are in polyamorous relationships, but you can only put one add on your health insurance? You know? What do we do with that? So it's like constantly thinking about ways that our societies and our systems have set up barriers to access the basic things you need in order to take care of yourself and your family. So yeah. So the but bi bisexuality just for the record, let me let everyone understand here in the United States, studies show that close to 60% of people who identify as lesbian, gay, and bisexual are bisexual. So we are not actually represented so much in media and filmmaking and TV. We've got all these stereotypes and and tropes. And, you know, I've got a book if anyone wants to understand more about it. That's that's a whole other podcast conversation, Joe. Oh, yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And, I mean, just to chuck another grenade in there. The, you the imagery you you you portrayed about these these cute 2 men, these cute 2 women, they could be bisexual. Well, they could be non binary, and they could all be trans as well. Right. You know? Exactly. I I spent 50 odd years of my life, and no one knew what was on the inside. Jo, yeah, we don't know, do we? Exactly. So And most majority of people. Most trans people also identify Fiona Dawson: as bisexual, so realizing that there's a difference between biological sex, gender, and sexual orientation, and the US military is the world's largest employer of trans people. More than 15,000 Joanne Lockwood: It's now a safe space to be out, to be supported. I I knew a I still know a a colonel in the air force who is trans. She she gets a huge amount of respect being a colonel, obviously, because people salute her and look up to her and and they do as she says. She she gets far more respect and support being as part of the military community than she ever would in in in civilian life and out out in the streets. So Yeah. Yeah. It's it's well recognized under this administration. The military is hugely supportive, isn't it? Well, I Fiona Dawson: mean, you might be talking about Sherry Sawowski, who is a yes. Retired Sherry Sawowski. No? Okay. Somebody else. So she's, she's a retired colonel in the US military. So in fact, prior when trans people were still banned in the US military, there was still the large the US military was still actually the largest employer of trans people. So this isn't a new phenomenon. Trans people serve in the US military at twice the rate than cisgender or non transgender people do. So we need to consider, not just in the US, but the military is a workforce as well. And so how are militaries around the world providing an inclusive workforce? But I think the like the the US military has long had a history of providing a space for trans people to be gainfully employed, to have community, to have a job that feels like you're part of something bigger than yourself, to access health care, to be able to get education, you know, all of those things that a cisgender person would like to have as well. So it's not new that the US military has been in an environment where trans people have been able to serve And, yeah, it depends on different units. It depends upon your leadership on how you're treated. So, like, when the ban was still in effect, we found that there were many people who were out as trans and serving despite the Joanne, but because their leadership knew that it the ban was wrong, and they didn't care who you are, like, what your gender is, do you have my back out where it matters? And that you know, can you do your job? And so those people are allowed to serve, and then you would find other units where there might be, you know, transphobia or a leader that did not get you as a trans person. And then that's when you ostracized, you know, potentially kicked out. So I think that the military ban on trans people was outdated policy, going back to policy as well. It had nothing to do with the government. I mean, nothing to do with government. Of course. It's part of the government entity, but it wasn't like it was outdated policy that needed updated. So it didn't really matter so much as to who was president. It was like, is the Department of Defense going to update their medical policies and include trans people to be able to serve? And finally, they did. And then there was a bit of a bump with 1 president from another, whatever. Couple of executives and things You bet. Just ignoring him Joanne Lockwood: for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because it was an executive order, Fiona Dawson: like but now, you know, trans people can serve openly, but then you still need to update your policies to include intersex people. 1 in 100 people are born intersex, meaning they can have any combination of male and fish, male and female sex tissue chromosomes and or hormones. And for the longest time, because of how your genitals look, you have been prohibited from serving in the US military, which is kind of ridiculous. And so it's like just being on top of, and that's where, again, like Rita and I, I think have this great collaboration where she's the expert on the policy in the HR. Like I know enough to be dangerous on that. I'll be the storyteller, but marrying like updated policy with sharing someone's lived experience and you can help build intuition. Rachel, I can see you. Joanne Lockwood: You're dying to get back in there. Come on. Go for it. No. I mean, Rita Hallgató: I I love that Fiona brought that up because I recently read a report of a large global consulting firm. And I was I was going like nuts about it because they were talking about numbers. Right? Like D&I report was just all numbers. And here's a simple solution for for businesses. And, you know, just reflecting to and Fiona said, you know, the US military just just you know, quote unquote, needed to, you know, change their policy. How about if companies and corporates start reporting their inclusion numbers and not their, you know, this is the number of this type of person we have. This is the number of this type of person. So let's talk about, you know, what's the gender pay gap in your business? How many and what kind of policies have been implemented to ensure, you know, equality, equity, inclusion, etcetera? How do the carrier of members or underrepresented groups, track, etcetera? So, you know, let's not try and always talk about numbers, numbers, numbers, because it's almost like showing off like, oh, look at how diverse you are. But are you truly inclusive? Here's a simple solution that any company could do: ditch those reports and start talking about the type of policies that you implemented and the changes that you made so that your people, wherever they come from, can feel themselves and and included. And and I think the the US military is a good example of, you know, they could have talked about the numbers, but, the the true change came with a policy change. So we we know Joanne Lockwood: we've talked about it already today that diversity, inclusion, equity, belonging, all these kind of things, the culture influences better outcomes for business. We know that. It's been out there for for donkey's years. We know we know this. But what we've also gotta recognize is the facts don't change people. We still drive too fast. We still eat too much red meat. We drink too much wine. Even though these things are bad for us, we shouldn't do it. So for whatever reason, organizations aren't seeing these kind of work initiatives or strategic initiatives as being beneficial. And then we talked about the start ups not seeing it as a as a something that they they can afford in the early days. So how do we get businesses to to start to do something? Because as I said, the facts don't change people. We we look at the World Economic Forum as talking around a 160 odd years for gender equity in the in the in the workplace in the western world. If you look at the globally, it's sort 250 years, I think, when you include China and the Middle East and those sort of places. We have to encourage those with the power, those with the privilege, which this is pick a pick a a demographic out of their head. This is straight white men as a as an example who often hold the power and privilege. How do we get them to enable the change? Because you can you can stand on the outside of the castle banging the door down all you like, unless someone's prepared to open it for you and welcome you in. How do how do we get how do we get people who hold those privileges to to open the door, to have the conversation? They're scared. They don't know what to do. They're worried about being marginalized themselves. You wanna go first or you want me? I'm Fiona Dawson: ready. Go on then. Jo for it. I I just say 2 words, Rita Hallgató: and then I'll let you go. And by like, I think it's simple by building empathy and and and compassion. I think that's the very first step. Yeah. And I Fiona Dawson: sorry. Have you have I got interrupted you? Okay. Good. I think to build on what Risha said, like, and how you do that is to help straight white men see themselves as diverse because they are diverse. We all are diverse. There's not it's not like straight white cisgender men versus everybody else. Like that's the approach we've been taking, going back to all the numbers. Like if you're, you know, we've created an environment where straight white cis men feel like they're left out of this conversation and their shit, and we need to change that experiences that are beneath their surface that no one is talking about. And that doesn't mean that we're leaving all the marginalized people behind. What it means is that we're opening and we're making the table bigger for everybody to get there, you know, and help like that straight white cis man has faced adversity too. And now we've created an environment where if that man wants to share his story, he's feeling like he's been told to go sit in the corner and be quiet, and it's making it worse. Not only does he face adversity, but maybe he has kids who have, or parents or other family members. And so that's why I think that we need to share everybody's story, including the straight white cis Joanne. And those people who were in power and leadership, I'll give them the opportunity to be able to lead and include everybody without feeling like they're not included in that work. And, and the 4 steps that I feel that you go through is like self awareness. So every human, if we could all increase our self awareness and if that straight white cis man can help increase his own self awareness too, and then it's awareness of others. Because once you've worked on yourself, it's easier to understand and work with other people. And then it's, courageous action and collaboration. But you're more likely to take courageous action collaboration if you've done your own work. And to get a tiny little bit woo woo here is like elevating consciousness and realizing the spirituality that we all share and that everything is going to be okay. Like, another analogy for you, you know, when you like Jo off on an airplane and like say down, down on the ground, as I know in the UK, it's raining a lot and you've got this cold cloud cover and you've got all this grotty weather on the bottom. But when you get on a plane and you go through those clouds, it's always, if it's the daytime, it's always gorgeous blue sky and gorgeous blue sunshine. And it's like all the joy and the prettiness that we see And that joy and prettiness never disappears just because of the layer of cloud. And so just being mindful of that and remembering that we don't have to take ourselves and each other quite so seriously, like all these stories that we make up in our minds. You know, we're born to love and that's what we should do in and outside of the workplace. I love that analogy. I love the idea because, yeah, I was Joanne Lockwood: I flew to San Francisco a couple of weeks ago, and you spend a lot of your time above and above or at night when you see some beautiful stars out there as well. So, yeah, I love that analogy. And I think what you're saying there is it it's emotional intelligence 101 really, isn't it? Self awareness, the awareness of others, connecting, collaborating. That's that's what we're talking about. Jo, Rita, what's your vision of the future? Yeah. Are we are we gonna make a difference between us? I hope so. I I mean, I'd Rita Hallgató: like to see today when all companies have truly inclusive and diverse boards and senior leadership teams who will be the champion of inclusion and acceptance. Are we gonna get there in the next decade? Maybe not. But I do believe that at some point, you know, we're we're gonna get closer to that. And so I'm going to, you know, do everything in my power in order to to to truly build inclusion and and and equality in the world, which, you know, I think including more people and being more inclusive doesn't mean excluding others. And and and I believe, you know, we can do this work, build inclusion by remaining still positive and and being on that, you know, upper up above that blue sky, and no one needs to feel, that, you know, they are under those gray clouds. So, yeah, I I hope so. I Joanne Lockwood: like that. You we we we gotta recognize we can't build inclusion by excluding and leaving people behind. This is a this is a we thing. This is a together thing. It's a collaboration thing. I'm a great believer that EDI, D&I, whatever acronym you wanna use, is a cut it's a collaborative sport, not a competitive sport, because it it's about combining our resources to to everybody succeeds, not trying to succeed ahead of somebody else. So, yeah, I I love that. Fiona, what's your what's your vision here? Where are we where's the world going? I was like, I know we're gonna get there because I'm Fiona Dawson: seemingly positive. And I hopefully it will be before I'm 90 years old. Jo we'll see. But no, I, I do. I, I think that we are truly living in a very fascinating time in, I don't want to say history, but in time of the world, like, I just think it's really cool that I think big systemic changes happening. I think it's for the betterment of societies, but it's extremely challenging to go through that. And like, like Rita said, like, I will do everything in this lifetime to do what I can to help build a world of equity. I know that I have been born with many privileges and I see myself as called to use the privilege that I have to be able to help other people. And I see good. I I think it's happening. Gonna be a bumpy road. It is a bumpy road, but absolutely. Being committed and, you know, I think, Joanne Lockwood: you know, we we look at some of the leadership models. 1 of them is one of the things is is commitment to the objectives. Commitment is is a we need to have courageous conversations. We need to stand up for what we believe in because there will be people who wanna push back, and that is is having that strength of character. I think the thing we can do as as consumers is we can vote with our pound or our dollar or our cent or whatever currency and make sure we're amplifying businesses that support our own values and our own brand ethics. So even if we can't change the incumbents, we can make sure the next generation sprout the green shoots we want to see. And then the the other organizations will will wither on the vine and become less relevant. You know? Yeah. There's there's monolithic companies of the past. We've only got to see what's happened to this the Twitter share price over the last, year or so to to realize that hate doesn't doesn't sell. Yes. It maybe there is a people who who will finance hate, but, fundamentally, it doesn't win. Hate never wins. I just because cooking pushing that pushing that fight. Wow. For my first, threesome, my my my my amorous podcast here. I probably remember How Fiona Dawson: was it for you? It it was it was it was fascinating. We're all in Joanne Lockwood: different countries and different time zones. Well, I know I suppose Rita and myself, we're in the same time zone, same country at the moment, but, the electrons are flying around the world. Jo, Rita, how do we get a hold of you? How do we find out more about what you do? I mean, I'm Rita Hallgató: mostly on LinkedIn. People can find me on LinkedIn and, you know, I I do have a website too, but usually LinkedIn is the easiest. Rita Hallgató, although my surname is not easiest to to remember. But, yeah, I'm I'm on LinkedIn. I'm quite active there. And then, you know, Fiona and I are collaborating together on on, on different things. So we often talk together on things. And yeah. So that's that's where where I'm accessible at most. Fabulous, Joanne Lockwood: and Fiona So on Fiona Dawson: LinkedIn, Fiona like the princess, Dawson like Dawson's Creek, I think my LinkedIn URL is, like, free lion, so I'm easy to find there. And then the website, free lion productions.com, and we have a page, for Rita and I's collaboration. So you can read about us there and find Rita there as well. And there's also a page of my filmography, so you can see an example of, like, the docs that I've done and the animation and that kind of stuff. Jo, and email, fiona@freelionproductions.com. Thank you so Joanne Lockwood: much, Peri. I've really enjoyed this conversation. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.