---
title: "From Stigma To Strength"
episode: 115
date: 2024-06-13
guest: "Alexandra Parritt"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/115-from-stigma-to-strength
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-115/audio.mp3
---

# From Stigma To Strength

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Alexandra Parritt to explore how stigma around mental health and neurodiversity shows up at work, and what it takes to shift from merely coping to finding strength. Alexandra shares how masking and stereotypes can shape perceptions of capability, and why psychological safety and supportive management can make the difference between a workplace that harms and one that enables people to thrive. They discuss neurodiversity as a movement that challenges rigid ideas of “normal”, touching on ADHD and autism and the importance of focusing on individuals rather than assumptions or one-size-fits-all adjustments. The conversation also looks at how working patterns, flexibility, and the everyday environment around someone can amplify or reduce stress. Alongside Alexandra’s experiences, Joanne reflects on identity and authenticity at work, including her perspective as a transgender woman and how expectations of “professionalism” can change over time. Together they make the case for inclusion that benefits everyone, and for practical culture shifts that remove stigma and open opportunity.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 02:00 — Overcoming mental health stigma through neurodiversity advocacy.
- 05:06 — Masking and camouflaging have strengths and weaknesses.
- 07:39 — The environment impacts neurodiverse individuals' experiences.
- 13:53 — Inclusion is individual-led; focus on individuals.
- 15:40 — Used fidget spinner instead of phone distraction.
- 21:44 — Identifying roles, strengths, and dynamics in teams.
- 24:00 — Promoting inclusive, diverse talent assessment in hiring.
- 28:00 — Self-discovery journey during career transition. Uncertainty resolved.
- 30:17 — Discovering positive traits, reframing perceived weaknesses.
- 33:32 — Finding Ikigai brings joy to work.
- 38:04 — Navigating career paths and generational empowerment shift.
- 41:36 — Minority communities making progress, facing resistance.
- 43:47 — Prioritising fairness and inclusion in conversations.
- 46:29 — Removing stigma, promoting equality in work benefits.
- 50:53 — Being Passionate about mental health and inclusion.
- 53:11 — Expressing gratitude to listeners for supporting inclusion.

## Key takeaways

- The environmental factors influencing the experience of neurodiversity and mental health in the workplace.
- Significance of psychological safety and its role in employee wellbeing and performance.
- The importance of being oneself at work and the societal shift toward flexible working practices.
- Why it's crucial to see the person beyond the label and avoid stereotype-driven assumptions.
- Strategies for organisations to champion inclusivity and support diverse communities effectively.
- The influence of historical movements on current inclusion practices and the continuous evolution of workplace standards.
- The intersection of personal fulfilment, career choice, and cultural change, and how these factors drive empowerment and satisfaction in professional life.

## FAQs

### FAQ Title: Understanding Inclusion and Neurodiversity in the Workplace What is the primary focus of Episode 115 of The Inclusion Bites Podcast?

The episode, titled "From Stigma to Strength," features guest Alexandra Parritt and host Joanne Lockwood discussing the journey from stigma to empowerment, particularly in the context of neurodiversity and mental health within the workplace.
How do Alexandra Parritt and Joanne Lockwood describe the importance of the work environment for individuals with conditions like ADHD and autism?
They explain that it is not just the job role, but particularly the work environment that greatly impacts individuals with ADHD, autism, and similar conditions. A supportive and understanding work environment can significantly enhance the experience of neurodiverse individuals.
Why is bringing one's whole self to work essential, according to this episode?
Bringing one's whole self to work is crucial as it contributes to authenticity and psychological safety. Joanne underscores that employees should be able to take time off when needed without having to justify their reasons, which fosters a more inclusive environment.
What analogies are used by Joanne Lockwood to explain societal dynamics and fairness?
Joanne Lockwood uses an airport baggage collection analogy to illustrate taking turns and fairness in society, as well as the relativity of our perceptions of identity with a reference to the TARDIS from Doctor Who.
How do Alexandra Parritt and Joanne Lockwood advocate for inclusivity in the workplace?
They stress the need to focus on individuals rather than conditions, challenge stereotypes, and support neurodiverse employees in bringing out their strengths. They also emphasize the importance of productivity and output over dress code and physical location when working.
Can you share a personal story discussed in the episode that highlights the value of a supportive working environment?
While specific personal stories are not detailed in the summary provided, the episode touches on how a supportive work environment is invaluable, especially during personal challenges, with both Alexandra and Joanne sharing insights from personal experiences and observations.
What is the stance on gender equity and inclusivity expressed in this episode?
The conversation highlights frustration with the slow pace of change and the continual shifting of goalposts for achieving full inclusivity and gender equity in the workplace.
How can I engage with Alexandra and hear more about her work on inclusion?
Alexandra invites listeners to connect with her on LinkedIn to discuss mental health inclusion and neurodiverse-friendly assessments. She is passionate about creating more inclusive spaces and advocating for diverse communities.
What does Joanne Lockwood encourage listeners to do?
Joanne encourages listeners to subscribe to Inclusion Bites, share their thoughts and visions for inclusivity, and reach out to make their voices heard in driving real change.
How does Joanne Lockwood relate to the podcast's theme of inclusion and personal identity?
As a transgender woman, Joanne Lockwood reflects on the evolving notion of professionalism and authenticity, acknowledging the importance of self-identity and its relativity in personal and professional settings.

For more insights and to listen to the full conversation, don't forget to tune into the episode on the Inclusion Bites podcast webpage: The Inclusion Bites Podcast.

## Transcript

Joanne  Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 115 with the title from stigma to strength, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Alexandra Parrott. Alexandra works in sales for an HR tech company that introduced the 1st team based psychological assessment tool to the talent market. When I asked Alexandra to describe her superpower, she said it is her empathy and fire within to make the world a safer place, one step at a time. Hello, Exandra. Welcome to the show.

Alexandra Parritt: Hi, Jo. Thank you for meeting with me. That was a a groovy little song, that. I like that. Thank you. Yeah. I,

Joanne  Lockwood: yeah, I've recorded it a few years ago. I was supposed a few months ago, and it's, yeah. I I quite enjoyed that now. Yeah. Because gets the guest and get a bit jiggy before we start. Isn't it? Yeah. Very soothing voice as

Alexandra Parritt: well, actually. Thank you. Yeah. People have often said I've got a bit of a

Joanne  Lockwood: late night radio voice. Who cares? Is that your dog your dog's joining in the the podcast as well? Well, she

Alexandra Parritt: does like to get involved, to be honest. In in any form of conversation I have, she likes to have her say. And and why not? You know, I I

Joanne  Lockwood: think the the views of dogs are highly rated in terms of mental well-being, care, and, we know they can improve people's just whole whole feeling of well-being, don't they? So yeah. And she gets Why not?

Alexandra Parritt: Jo Yeah. Maybe she liked the music. Maybe she liked the intro. Maybe that's

Joanne  Lockwood: what set her off. So we called this episode from stigma to strength. Tell me a bit more about yourself and and what what your passion is. Thank you. So, yeah,

Alexandra Parritt: I suppose there's a few different angles from the stigma to strength. One that's personal and then one that's relevant to the neurodiversity movement, which I am a huge advocate of. So from a personal perspective, I've I've grown up with a lot of stigma associated with mental health and specific mental health condition, and I really wanted to use all of that negative energy to create something positive. And as you said earlier, try and make the world a safer place so that individuals that do face a lot of stigma feel a little bit more safe and welcomed and included. And that's why the neurodiversity movement really stood out to me because I was looking for a community that believed in the concept of turning negative stigma into something positive and seeing the strengths out out of something that has had a real negative impact on people's lives. And I was hoping that, you know, someone like me could belong to a community like that, and I didn't know what neurodiversity was or meant or what the umbrella term covered. So rather than just sort of googling it, I decided to sign up to a degree in it because that's the best way to learn about something and to understand myself and others better. So, yeah, I started the degree in January. I think, oh my gosh. That was a while back now. Yes. To learn a bit more about neurodiversity.

Joanne  Lockwood: So you you mentioned that you yourself have experienced negative mental health for a lot of your a lot of your life. Mhmm. We find that there's still that yeah. We we this this is some stigma to strength, this episode, but there's a lot of stigma around mental health, neurodiversity, anything that people can't see, touch, and feel sometimes. You know? People don't are not aware. And I'm I'm sure you probably experienced people saying, well, you don't look like you've got a mental health condition or a mental health challenge. So people judging you, I guess, from from that, are they? Yeah. I think that's, there's

Alexandra Parritt: there's this definite strength and weakness that comes with masking and camouflaging, which is a a topic that's very very prominent in the neurodivergent, world. And, yeah, it can work well in a sense that you really think that you can just get on through, and no one's gonna see the real me. So they're just gonna we're just gonna get through this to the point where, yeah, you either get or you don't look like you have x y zed. But and I think at the same time, kind of unrevealing the taking off the mask, you think that people are gonna question your capabilities? Because in the world of business, people are often seen as just a number or a revenue generator, you know, a product of performance, and anything that has stigma associated with it comes with that that feeling or thought or that bias that that hinders your capabilities rather than seeing the strength behind. So yeah. As the world moved

Joanne  Lockwood: on, yes, You mentioned, I think, in the show notes, you were 19, where there was was first sort of uncovered, and you were able to talk about it and and not without giving your age away. That sounds like a few years ago. And I would talk to you guys. Do you detect a different a different attitude in the workplace today? Depends which

Alexandra Parritt: workplace you're in, I think. Some some are still miles behind. Actually, my the founder of the company sorry. I'm trying to fiddle with a pen subtly, and I just threw it across the desk. The founder of the company I work at now was actually the first person that I was open to about my mental health before joining and in the interview process. Helped that he's a psychologist and has a background in CBT and therapy and things like that, so I just naturally felt confident and comfortable enough to speak to him about it. But I do think that there are still workplaces that are miles behind, and it is not the workplace. It's the individuals that you interact with each day. Each of them will hold their own thoughts and feelings and bias and can make an entire workplace difficult because of that. Mhmm.

Joanne  Lockwood: Does does your work impact your mental health, or is it a way of, I don't know, having an outlet to do something different and distract your mind? Sometimes being busy, having an activity, engaging in something can can positively impact your mental health. But having a stressful job or having colleagues or a lack of psychological safety can make it a more negative experience. So are you do you find work as a positive experience generally? It's an interesting question because, in

Alexandra Parritt: neurodiverse in the neurodiversity world, they often talk about how the environment around an individual can impact that individual. So they could either have a really negative experience. So let's say someone with ADHD or someone with autism or a mental health condition, They could join an environment and have a really positive experience and still have that condition, or they can join an environment and have a really negative experience, but they're still an individual with ADHD and autism. So it's almost like it's not the condition that is causing just causing that. It's the environment around them and the people around them. And I was actually always told with my mental health condition to to not have a stressful job. Try and find something that's not too fast paced, not too stressful, and they certainly would have included sales in that world of fast paced and stressful and a hinder to my mental health. But, again, I think it's it's less about the job role and more about the environment around you, And that Thomas Armstrong speaks a lot about ideal jobs for that will make make an individual with ADHD or autism thrive because of their strengths, so their strengths would make them great at this job. And I think that's still a key element of, actually, the working environment around them is what can impact them, not necessarily the job itself. Yeah. I agree. I mean, even though I I

Joanne  Lockwood: work alone well, so my wife and I work together, but, yeah, we we we we're a micro business. But but I'm also, involved with the professional association, and I chair the board. And I'm very keen from a cultural perspective is that people can can bring that that whole self to work. That's I hate that buzzword because Oh, I

Alexandra Parritt: know. People wouldn't doubt me. What's that mean? What's that mean?

Joanne  Lockwood: Yeah. Bring yourself to work. But I'm very keen that if I'm having a a bad week or I'm having a bad day, or I just say stop, I can't, it there's too much buzz in my ears, too much noise. Just better press the pause button and say, look, give me give me a couple of days. I just need to sort this out, sort my life out, get this back on track. I can't over I don't wanna overload. So having having working with people around you where you can just without have to go into detail, just say, give me 5, give me a day, give me 2 days. Just I'm I'm I'm here. Just give me some space. You don't you do offer to help me. I'm I'm I'm fine. Just need to say, okay. I'm here if you need me. Bye. And it's it's it's so when you talk about the environment, the the colleagues, the environment, the culture in which you work, it's it's better to have those conversations without them being huge conversations all the time, isn't it? Just knowing that that's not another anxiety you've got across. A 100000%. My colleague from

Alexandra Parritt: my previous role, worked for SAP, and my colleague, Hannah Oakford, she was the one that actually spoke about making the world like, different corners of the world a safer place, and she also had a tagline of bringing your worst self to work. Like, we want you to feel like you can bring your worst self to work. And I suppose that is a spin on the authentic self because there's nothing worse than having, you know, something that's going on, whether there's Joanne actual thing going on or it's just a feeling that you're sat in, and you're really trying to force yourself to work and force yourself to play this, you know, play this role or have this mask on. Actually, I've I've experienced that myself. I I lost my mum 2 years ago, and I'd just come back from maternity leave. And I was so stressed. I was like, I've just taken maternity leave, and I've just come back. I can't then take off any more time for compassion leave or anything. I wanted to take time off before she passed because I knew it was happening. And, actually, the workplace, it was a brand new manager that had taken over whilst I was on mat leave, and he was like, this is just a job at the end of the of the day. Like, we're we're just selling software. You take the time to do what you need to do. And I I'd never sort of I hadn't had many managers before that. But just that one sentence that they said to me, I knew that I didn't have to worry because, you know, that the job was was irrelevant at that point. Ideally, as a salesperson, you just come in and you start making revenue, but it was the manager and the working environment around me that made me feel safe. And and, yeah, that was invaluable at that point in my life, for sure. Yeah. I could completely relate to that.

Joanne  Lockwood: About a year well, just over a year, probably or 14 months ago, all four of our parents, so Marie's mom and dad, my mom and dad, had a spell in the hospital. And at one stage, we had a parent in different wards on different floors of the same hospital, and we were visiting them up and down the lift. And Jo just if if if we had both been working for an employer, we both kind of felt that we would have pushed their patients probably to the edge. Because at some point, you have a job to do, and and no matter how flexible an employer can be, they also have to there has to be some boundary somewhere, doesn't there? And what but the ability to just get up and go now when when we needed to without having to explain. So it gives obviously, we we had income challenges. We had to earn a living as a freelancer, as a as a self employed person, but we had we weren't constrained by somebody else's rule. And when Marie's mom eventually passed away just over a year ago, we she was able to take all the time she needed, and we as a family were able to do that. She could able to support her dad and and work and so on. And we we just we sat here one night, and it's apparently Jo difficult working for an organization. Or or the organization that Marie used to work for especially because they were well, I'm not saying they were terrible, but they just weren't very progressive. They weren't maybe kind of a a rule based HR world where this is the rule. This is what you get. Any more than that, it's unpaid or it's conversations about, are you going back to work? So, yeah, you're right. The environment plays a huge thing, and not having to have that worry is is hugely, supportive of it. And I I think

Alexandra Parritt: as well, like, the the experiences that we're covering are experiences that anyone can have, whether they've got a mental health condition or neurodivergent or not. And it's the concept that inclusion really is an individual led world because, you know, you can try and be inclusive to people with mental health conditions and to people with neurodivergent conditions, but then there's so many things that can happen in one's life that will completely change the course of their life, and and they will need some leeway and breathing space from their employer. And you can't preempt or preplan for that. You have to just, you know, work with each individual as an individual, which is the same for the the neurodivergent world, to be honest, because I think there's I can see things happening in the world, but it's still very much focused on a stereotypical profile of what an individual with ADHD looks like, for example. And there's a famous quote, and I can't, for the life of me, remember who said it, but it's this quote itself has stuck with me, that if you meet one person with autism, you've only met one person with autism, and you can extend that across the neurodiverse space. And I think, again, there's so much focus and energy and effort to be neuro neuroinclusive as a workspace, but they're really just looking at the conditions underneath the neurodiversity umbrella umbrella rather than the individuals. And if you take a step back, it's like, okay. Yes. It's a different space to learn about, different worlds to learn about. They're still individuals with their own individual experiences and challenges. Not everybody not everybody with ADHD needs a fidget spinner, for example, and then they're gonna be absolutely fine. It's it's an individual's journey. Yeah. Although I

Joanne  Lockwood: I went I I sat in on a a training session or no. It was a it was a workshop day with another company once, and they put out fidget spinners and and tactile play toys, those sort of things, on the tables and then and I found myself with a fidget spinner. And what I realized by the end of the day is because I had the fidget spinner and I was playing with it all the time. I didn't pick my phone up. Jo I kinda learned or realized to myself that my phone had become my fidget spinner. The playing with it, the the the reclusing into it, the the the rhythmic, the doomscrolling, whatever it may be. I I found out, Ross, I didn't appreciate that I needed to have that kind of something in my Joanne. The fidget spinner worked. And my wife, Marie, she she says I I I play with my nails a lot and clicking them and and and sort of she said, oh, I'm always fiddling my nose. She she keeps saying, stop it. Stop playing me now. Stop playing me. I said, well, no. I can't promise not to stop playing around now because it kind of my brain wants to do it. And, you know, I'm not saying it's stimming or or or pitch particularly in that sort of air in that sort of zone, but it's definitely I I've got a need to have something going on. I don't know. That that that's very similar to having a, as I say, some sort of stimulation or something for the brain. When the brain's idle, it needs something to be doing in the background. Otherwise, it just runs away or just, like, crazy. So Yeah. Yeah. I completely relate to that. And

Alexandra Parritt: having a lab the art really have a fidget spinner, to be honest, because I I did I've I've learned to fidget below the camera level, so it's not obvious, But I do it with a pen, and the pen flies. So to be honest, I probably could do with investing in 1.

Joanne  Lockwood: Yeah. And, yeah, when I was growing up, people would sit there and doodle in their notepads, wouldn't they? They'd be drawing always doodling something, always writing something when the teacher's talking. What are you doing? I'm just doodling. What are you doodling for? Pay attention. It's like but that's the same sort of thing, but we just didn't have an appreciation of this need for the the brain to have a another outlet somehow. And, yeah, I've actually, look at my desk. It's messy, and I've I've got I've got these dice, which you you know Yeah. If you're listening to the podcast, you can't see them. But they're 2. They're fitness dice, and one's got the number of reps on it, and one's got the exercise you have to do. So if you roll the dice, it says how many crunches you gotta do. Not that I would do, but I I often sit and play with these. Well, a couple of Duracell batteries on my desk because I'm often playing with these Duracell batteries. But it's it it is. It's having that that stimulation as a as a proper toy or or something else. And, yeah, when you raised that and mentioned it, I completely relate to it. Yeah. No.

Alexandra Parritt: Exactly. And I think, there's a lot of there's a lot of ways that we can make the working environment more inclusive to everyone because the whole working from your desk, 9 to 5, in the office 5 days a week, you know, expected to do x, y, zed. Everybody works in different ways. Everybody's brain needs different things. And that's sort of the main concept of neurodiversity, is to look less at conditions and traits and more at the value in having diverse minds and different minds you're excluded, sort of thing. And I do think working environments are a little bit more flexible than they were because we're sat at our desks at home, fiddling with whatever is on our desk. I I I do

Joanne  Lockwood: wonder. You know, we talk about people who have neurodivergency or neurospicy, whatever whatever phrase you you people say these days. But I often wonder who who is neurotypical? Who is that one person on the bell curve of normality that is typical? What does what does what does neurotypical mean? I I'm not die I haven't been diagnosed with autism, ADHD. I don't particularly think I've got an extreme case of anything if I have it, But I have traits and go, yeah. I do that. Yeah. I do that. But I wouldn't want to declare myself or identify the origin. But I often think, well, what is it, really? Is it just this broad spectrum where everybody's on it somewhere, and it's just towards the edges, you have different different needs? And we just have to make sure that we're treating people fairly, because who is typical? Who is normal these days? Well, I think that's a really good point because I think outside of the

Alexandra Parritt: self advocacy groups of, say, individuals with autism, which are thriving communities that are doing incredible work and same with ADHD, dyslexia and everything I feel like neurodiversity is a social movement that is finally battling against the sense of norm. And the more battling against the sense of norm. And the more reading that I do in this degree, the more that I'm like, yeah, actually, what is normal? And where did even come from? Why do we always have to fit in this box? And Professor Amanda Kirby and, Melanie Francis, they have a Do It Solutions organization and they said, we're all neurodiverse. They make that statement because, yeah, neurodiversity is the concept of us all having different minds operating in different ways, thinking, feeling, behaving, And and and that's that's how, you know, the world thrives. If we were all the same, gosh. Well, we Yeah. Long conversation, would we?

Joanne  Lockwood: No. And, you know, you think about things like Myers Briggs and those sort of personality testing and dyspophobia. Whether you're a fan of those or not, you know, the concept of introverts, extroverts, all those kind of theories, Carl Jung and all these sort of people. You think about this sort of personality types. And I know you work for a psychological assessment organization. But that really is just realizing that people's brains think differently. And we're trying to we're trying to work out this is your type of thinking style. This is your type of personality. What role is gonna work best for you? Where are you gonna struggle? And I guess what you're doing in your psychological testing around teams is which stars are gonna clash, which stars are gonna accelerate each other, group think, challenge, stand out. So it's looking for the dynamics and team to get a balance. So I think neurodivergency is is just recognizing what we've been talking all along about these different personality types and different interests and how we react to the world. And, yeah, I I I fully accept there are people who have, on the ASD, who have more extremes, more complex needs, more support needed. But most people are kind of able to come with life or whatever the way they do once they understand who they are. And I think some of that is just down to self acknowledgement, isn't it, where you you figure out what who you are, what matters to you, what impacts you, how you can support yourself, and then how you can advocate for what I need with others. I think that have it creating that voice, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, growing up in a world of stigma, you

Alexandra Parritt: lose that sense of self advocacy and self esteem. It's something that we really have to work even harder than others on to to build it up. And I've actually heard some amazing stories outside of the workplace of individuals that have more extreme forms on the ASD spectrum and, a nonverbal and have autism, and and they have been placed in an environment that has been adjusted to them and it's had an incredibly positive impact to the point where some, not that this would work for all, but some children that are non verbal with autism have even spoken and said a word when they've been placed in an environment that is sort of adjusted and built around them. But, yeah, in terms of the personality test, it was strange. I was doing reading for my degree in neurodiversity, and it was the first time that my both worlds came together because there was information about personality tests and the concept of the norm and and how this all came about. And the Myers Briggs personality test in particular, the origins of it were questionable. I really had no idea where they'd all come from. I suppose you don't just sort of sit back and think about that in a in a day to day life, And it was really just testing the how safe the organization would be to hire this individual from a kind of mental health perspective. And it it did get me thinking about how accessible and inclusive some of the personality test world is. I mean, we go from the big five and I think I've kind of joined the company with a more inclusive, accessible lens of trying to make that talent assessment space a world where you can have, like, strength profiles and not look at whether an individual's good or bad or if they're right or wrong or can or can't perform a job, which is what most competency based assessments do. But as you said, it's it's being more strategic in in the world of hiring and selection. And looking at the team that you have today and the different kind of personalities and preferences and values, thinking, okay. Actually, let's let's find somebody that's a little bit different in terms of their traits and characteristics and their values to to create a more diverse let's say you might have a whole team of the same job role, let's say sales, but you're not going to want everybody to have exactly the same approach to that job. And when I went through the assessment, I was lower on the scale of emotion control, which actually means I'm more passionate and dynamic than calm and confident and stable approach, and I was very low on outgoing because, me, I like cup of tea, puzzle book, bed by 9 PM, which isn't ideal for the world of sales and networking, unfortunately. That'd

Joanne  Lockwood: be great if you wanna be a fantastic mom. Well, yeah. Exactly. It's it's

Alexandra Parritt: just necessary, I think. I was like that before I had my toddler, but, but, but it was, you know, it wasn't an assessment to say whether I was good or bad at the job. It's just one lens in an overall profile of, well, I just spoke like this to the the founder and about my mental health, and he saw something in me.

Joanne  Lockwood: Yeah. It's if you've if you've got a whole team full of outgoing people who are highly driven and go getty, you'll end up with a whole alpha crew all kinda compete with each other and conflict and and and not be supportive. So you need a balance of of types Absolutely. Especially when you want people doing a support role or a, well, attention to detail type role, those kind of things. So you do need different personality types, and people tend to gravitate. But even, I mean, I'm I spent most of my life running an IT company. I've been in electronics. And I used to think I had a high attention to detail. And what I discovered was I'd like there to be detail, but I don't want to be the one that does it. So I have got attention to detail in the outcome of others. Whereas for me, I actually don't like doing the detail. And that's really is it but it took me best part of 55 years to realize that. When I people used to say, well, you got a really high attention detail. And I've got high attention to spotting when detail is not done. Yeah. I'm actually not the person. I'm not the person. I'm an 80% person. I'm a person that is good enough. Let's let's just let's just go with it. That'll do. We'll figure it out. Whereas, you know, if you really have a high attention to detail, you're the 99.999% person. That's not me. Mhmm. And it took me a long while to figure that out. Now I have. I'm kinda comfortable with that because I go, yay. I get it now. And and I I I just like I've just done now, I share that with people and say, I don't have a high attention to detail myself, but I I expect high level of detail in others. And I look out for it. So, yeah, it's yeah. I think understanding self is really important as well.

Alexandra Parritt: No. Absolutely. And I think that's a journey that a lot of individuals have to go on regardless of, you know, whether they have a neurodivergent condition or anything, and it's I I think a lot of people haven't been on that journey. So whether you're looking at it from the perspective of those that are getting late diagnosis and going on this whole reflective journey of, oh my gosh. This all makes so much sense now, and thinking back on how they've behaved. I think even if you don't have that before I joined this workplace, like, I found myself at a complete crossroads where yeah. So a lot of very big life events had happened, and I was suddenly like like, who what what do I want? Who who am I? Like, what do I value? And what do I wanna do with my life? And and all this kind of stuff, which 9 times out well, I mean, at least 50% of the time, if you're looking for a new role, you might well be in that headspace because your career takes up most of your life. And I really just I'd never really looked inwards in that sense of of what can I bring to the table, but what do I also want? And I was actually googling tests that could just tell me, like, what's my dream career? Like, what do I want? What do I value? Because I just sat there with an empty notepad, like, I don't know. I've never really thought about this. So before I even came to work where I work, the recruiter I was had built up a connection with sent me the assessment because they sort of run through all candidates through it. And I I got the the report because when I tried to Google it, I yeah. You take the whole test, and then you have to pay for it at the end. I was like, well, I don't wanna do that. So, yeah, I just got this report, and it it just had it all there for me. And I was like, oh my goodness. You know, 31 years, and I've never really taken the time to think, what what do I want? It's always about, well, can I do I have the skills? Do I have the experience for this company to wanna hire me, and do I have what they want? I've never thought about what what do I want? And it's, it's quite quite mad that we never really take the time to to reflect on ourselves like that. Well, here's a question for you, though. Goodness.

Joanne  Lockwood: So what what do you want? What what is your have you figured that oh, yeah. You see? So what what does it tell you about yourself that you didn't know before? I think it it kinda gave me

Alexandra Parritt: my profile of of sort of what I bring to the table. I always knew what my weaknesses were and what I couldn't do, but I hadn't ever looked to anything in a positive light. And and this is very, very, like, neutral in the way that it presents traits and scales and and characteristics in that there is no good or bad either end of the scale. And, actually, the emotion control one was interesting because I always thought from a mental health perspective that perhaps I don't have the correct way of managing emotions for any kind of fast paced job because that's what I was always told. And then I realized, okay. Maybe I'm not calm and stable in my approach. I can just sort of, like, you know, fluctuate with the stresses of sales. But, actually, if you look at that from the terminology of passionate and dynamic, it really starts to give a bit more oomph and it give us give you a strength trait rather than something that I always saw as a weakness as a result of stigma. And and and that was something that I was never able to to do myself. Yeah. Looking at the kind of work values as well, like, what I what I kinda wanted from a from a company, I never really knew. I just kinda looked at the benefits that companies offered. Money, holiday, health care. Yeah. And then I realized that that stuff actually wasn't that important because I've had a lot of that before and and wasn't necessarily happy within the working environment, hence why I joined a start up because I definitely did. You don't join a start up for the benefits. That like, that's for sure. You you join it because of the the team environment that you're joining and the kind of values that they have and the individuals.

Joanne  Lockwood: Jo get shit done as they say. It's it's kind of fast paced, isn't it? You're not no no huge layers of bureaucracy. It's it's everybody trying to drive change forward quickly. It's it's kind of startup mentality, isn't it? Yeah. It's a completely different world. I've not been in this

Alexandra Parritt: world, and I was a very big company mentality before, and I love the fluidity of the start up world. And, actually, if anything, if I was advised away from the fast paced kind of job role and I went for sales, I certainly would have been advised away from the the dynamics of the start up world, but I just don't really like to listen to people's advice sometimes.

Joanne  Lockwood: That's a good thing. Yeah. Because, I always say we don't listen to ourselves enough, and we want we need validation. We need someone to say, yes. You can go for that. It's that that sort of imposter syndrome, limiting beliefs. Sometimes we need permission, don't we? Yes.

Alexandra Parritt: Absolutely. Like, is this the right thing to do? Joanne, why I Googled. It doesn't help. I don't recommend that, by the way.

Joanne  Lockwood: But it's chat GPT now, can't we? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Put put put your stuff in there and go, what what what should I do? Here's a bit of me.

Alexandra Parritt: What what should I do with my life? Yeah.

Joanne  Lockwood: I'd Yeah. Just try that later. See what it says. But I I've tried electronics. I've tried IT, and now I'm trying HR, EDI, speaking and training consulting. So yeah. Well, it's something you truly believe in. Yeah. It is. It's I've I often talk about Ikigai, the the Japanese art of finding a happy life, which is where you try to find those quadrants where you Jo, what what the world needs, what I'm good at, what I get paid for, but also what I what truly inspires me. And I I always found that I could do 3 of them, but I never found that thing what truly inspired me, the passion. And now I've got something I'm good at, the world needs, and I've got passion for, and I'm and I'm okay at it. Jo, yeah, but bringing them all together, you find that sweet spot. And I always say that if you if you find that that magic sweet spot in the middle there, work that never feels like work again. You know, I don't I don't need to retire because I'm doing what I love to do. Yeah. And

Alexandra Parritt: bad. It's it's not as you if you blend that in with,

Joanne  Lockwood: sufficiency and not gluttony. So we're not looking to have more than we need. We always work on what we need, the sufficiency. And we're not we don't need bigger, faster, stronger. We just need good enough, what keeps us going, what makes us happy. And she bent those together. It it it's really helped my mental health, my stress levels, where I'm not trying to chase something all the time. I'm going, it's okay. I can I can I can free wheel downhill for a bit? I'm cool. Doesn't matter. I can say, well, take the pressure off. Or, Jo, I'm out. Don't need to do it. It's immensely empowering as well to be able to have that that sort of self, yeah, self self empowerment to say no and stop and I'm off. Yeah. Absolutely.

Alexandra Parritt: And and, exactly, like, being at a cross roads, it it feels impossible to find something that fits all of those angles. And and taking the degree in neurodiversity was something I never thought I'd do because I was like, look. I've always wanted to study psychology, but I've got a family now, and I need to stick with the job that pays. And how on earth am I gonna pay for and fit in a degree and change my career entirely? Because I thought, well, gonna have to be a psychologist then. But this just sort of came my way where it blends the world of psychology, sales, and inclusion and accessibility. I mean, I brought that myself. I was like, I'm only joining if you allow me to join with this lens of how we can make this world more inclusive. Just as you said, where where you're you're sat today, where you're you're finally combining all of those together, Yeah. That's that's sort of what happened with me. And, you know, not everyone it's very difficult to get to that place, isn't it? But I think the first step is actually understanding what what drives you and what are you passionate about and Yeah. Yeah, really reflecting on yourself first. I

Joanne  Lockwood: think I I grew up as a as a Gen x person with that mindset where you would kind of had this expectation of a job for life or a job for long term. It was kind of a career was 10, 20 years type thing. And without, again, without casting any judgment on your age, I would suspect you're probably a millennial. And that

Alexandra Parritt: me. Oh, not at all. Well, on the on the cusp.

Joanne  Lockwood: And there's a very much more transactional work concept these days where you work is is part of your life, not the only part of your life. You're not sucked into it. You you want more out of it than just the money. And I think I I grew up with that, you know, want wanting bigger, faster, stronger, and it's it's getting off that bandwagon. I think I'd like to think yeah. I'd like to think that in in 5 years' time, you you you have the flexibility in your own head to say, actually, it's not working for me. Let's try something different. And you you you will have that empowerment not to feel obliged to to stick with what you decided when you left school. And I think that was kind of my parents when I I left school to join the Royal Air Force Electronics Engineer. And when that didn't work out after 3 years, they were kinda like, but what are you gonna do now? It's like, I I I don't know, but I'll figure something out. And I kinda fell into IT. So and I gave that a go for a while, and then I fell out of love with that. And I I felt so empowered by not hanging on to something that didn't make me happy. And I think that's what we're gonna try and focus on is is keep looking at what makes us happy and what fulfills us, what drives us. And then you'll get we talk about discretionary effort and going the extra mile and and putting our passion to things. That's really where we wanna put people, isn't it? Yeah. And it is interesting that

Alexandra Parritt: you mentioned that concept of you, like you start a path and you have to stick to that path and that path you know, because it starts from sort of school, doesn't it, when you've gotta whittle down your subjects and then do some further education in a more specific subject, and then you've gotta go down that path that's related to that. And the amount of people that stick to that path is is very little, but those that really try without actually wanting to, it it has a profound impact on them. And, yeah, it's it's interesting looking at the different generations. The talent world is always trying to do that, looking at Gen z now in the early career space and the talent that they're bringing in and what's important to them. And I think even, yeah, even less so is it that they they have to have a career to get by and they they're questioning the corporate space. They're questioning the corporate jargon and being sold to by businesses. They wanna join a business and be part of the conversation, whereas I suppose before, we're much we're very much like, well, this is our this is what our space in the business, and we must not go outside of that space or question why we're stuck in that space or and and the empowerment, the level of empowerment has increased with each generation, I think. Yeah. So

Joanne  Lockwood: COVID had a huge impact on on the world, probably outer space as well, no doubt. But, yeah, it had a huge impact on the world, how people perceived the world of work, well-being. And we're now 40 years past it. And we're starting back, aren't we? I do think we're starting back into kind of can't do it that way anymore. No. No. Can't do it. We're having a COVID apnesia or is it Yeah. Yeah. No. I

Alexandra Parritt: I'm noticing that very much so, especially with, like, the actual working environment of of there was a lot of, companies that kind of went down the path of flexibility, flexible working in terms of where you could work and and when and, you know, things like that. And that that was positive for the majority of the neurodivergent community in that they could sort of work in an environment that worked for them. Then to be thrust back into you know, the hiring process where you've gotta come on-site in person for the interview, putting them in an environment that's gonna stress them out incredibly. And then in a workplace, right, well, that's your designated workspace and desk, not thinking about any kind of adjustments. It does seem like we've gone very much backwards even though we we were in that flexible workspace world not long ago, and, you know, it seemed to be working out pretty well. And our company is trying to reel back that control of of putting us all in this box. Yeah. And and not everybody's not every individual or individual's brain can work and thrive in in that particular environment. So, yeah, and and it's not it's not inclusive or flexible for a lot of other people either. So, yeah, it's been a very interesting conversation, hasn't it, in the workplace? Yeah. We we see a lot in the

Joanne  Lockwood: news from often our politicians driving this we've become too woke. We've become too woke. Yeah. We've got too many snowflakes who want the world to bend over backwards for them. You know, the the majority of people just wanna get on with stuff and wave our British flag around, and and we're we're we're I think I saw it the other day. We're pandering to small minorities. We have to bend over backwards to keep them happy. We've gotta stop it. And that that seems to be the pervasive kind of political message at the moment, doesn't it? Yes. It think I

Alexandra Parritt: developed a twitch in my eye as as you spoke about that. I I I just think that, it can be a reflection of the the great work that these minority communities are doing to self advocate because a response like that means that our kind of work is getting somewhere and it's irritating those that want that sense of norm and that that this is the the way that the world should work because the only reason they would react like that is that we are being heard of not as much as we should be, but, the royal way. And and things are happening and changes are happening adjustments are being made. I don't even like the word adjustments, to be honest, because adjustments suggest that you're bending over backwards for these minorities, whereas adjustments are very much enablers and should be seen as just standard practice. But, yeah, they do seem to be fighting back on the great work that things like the neurodiversity movement are doing, but I think I think it's a sign of of of the success that these communities are having, actually. Yeah.

Joanne  Lockwood: I I think if you look back in history where where change happens, it's as a result of people really coming together, really starting a movement for change, and then we see the inevitable backlash. We we saw it. We still see it around anti racism in the US and in the UK, the belief that things are better now. There's not things aren't necessarily better. They're they're different, but the fundamental's still there. And I think you look at the LGBT community, there's still stigma around being gay, being a lesbian, being bi, and also almost certainly being trans these days is better. But it's still a long way, I guess, when we talk about people with poor mental health, well-being needs, low socioeconomic state status, educational challenges, neurodiversity, all those things. Again, the the typical person is going, well, hang on a minute. What about me? What about me? Why not? I can't be looking. You know, I'm I'm I've got needs too. I think that's that's the rise of the the incumbent, if you like, the person with privilege saying, I feel my privilege is being eroded. And that's that's the danger, isn't it? Where it's trying to involve everybody in these conversations and not I'm a great believer that we can't we can't remove marginalization by marginalizing somebody else. We can't further inclusion by excluding others. It's trying to have these weak conversations as you described it and, moving things forward and shuffling up, taking their space ourselves, recognizing that fairness is around everybody having a bit of a look in. It's a bit like the the, the baggage collection at the airport, isn't it? You you if you look at the the people behaviors, there's these people will stand right next to the collection belt staring down the down the belt looking for their suitcase. And there's the other people who who get off the plane last, who goes to the toilet, who wander around, have a drink, talk to their talk to their family, and then look over the top and go, oh, my case is here now. Walk straight up, put on, like, a toilet, and walk off. That that's me. That's what I do. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not pasting it because you don't get out any quicker by standing there waiting. You just stress yourself out. So I think what we need to do is encourage everyone to get off the plane last. Well, no, I actually don't because I wanna get off the plane last. There's no there's no there's no benefit to rushing on the plane or rushing off the plane. So it's just It's on human dynamics,

Alexandra Parritt: isn't it, really? Yeah. But I do I do truly think, you know, you've got you've got 2 worlds at the moment. You've got the world of talent where there's a very, very obvious skill shortage in in so many areas, and then you've got individuals that are just not being given the opportunities to have the kind of the right education needed or given any opportunities in the place of work. And they're saying, well well, how about us? Why don't, you know, why doesn't the world think about things in a different way and look at at widening the talent pool and making some necessary progress to include more people, and then you've got the people in the middle like, well, what about us? It's like, hey, you're already in the world of work. There's so many Jo much opportunity for people to be upskilled, reskilled, enter the world of work, But adjustments are necessary because the the world isn't is not built to be inclusive, and it should be. Yeah.

Joanne  Lockwood: I I think, you know, it's it's right that if someone says, well, what about me? What about us? Whoever that may be. And by removing social stigma from a lot of the things that are stigmatized, flexible working, talk about mental health, parental leave, shared parental leave, both both parents involved in bringing up their child on a on an equal footing, that will allow people to say, well, what about me? To say, I actually wouldn't that benefit you as well? And they go, well, yeah. But but I I don't want it because there's a stigma. What we're trying to do is remove stigma and have conversations about these things so that you are part part of the the people benefit from this as well. You could say, oh, stop. Push the button. Hang hang on a minute. I wanna I've gotta pick my child up from from here. I've gotta go to the school play, or I've gotta it's it's my my turn to to be in charge of shopping and and food today or or whatever. Go listen to my child read tonight, so I can't stay late. By removing the statements, we're we're actually creating a world where everybody can succeed. And I'm a great believer that I am part of everybody. So if everybody if everybody succeeds, that that's me as well because I'm everybody as well. And I think that's what we gotta try and do is what I'm saying. Not just about you and your minority or your your your particular characteristic or lived experience. We're just trying to make it better for everyone, and you everyone as well. You're in there. Absolutely.

Alexandra Parritt: I don't think our mindset is particularly common, though, because I'm exactly the same. You know, I advocate for worlds that I do not understand the lived experience of those worlds because I do not identify as that, but I advocate for everyone to have the same opportunities and the same safety. And, you know, I just I can't see why anyone wouldn't, but I don't really understand how you wouldn't want the world to be a better place for everybody. I know it sounds really lame and cliche, but, I think that's it's not adjustments for minorities. It's opening up the talent world and the world of work and opportunities to anyone and everyone because everybody deserves a fair Joanne. Businesses are going to benefit from it. You see these social mobility projects now. Where were they years ago? Why were they not part of the conversation? So something's happening. Something. Very slow, though, isn't it? It's all very slow. Isn't it? I was the World Economic

Joanne  Lockwood: Forum. They published their gender equity report. They do it every year. And I think the last one is still predicting best part of 80 odd years for gender equity in the western world. If you I think if you look at globally, it's a 160 odd years. And in certain parts of the world, it's 200 or plus years. And we can imagine, you know, South Asia, Middle East, there's all places, China, Russia, Afghanistan, you know, all these places where we can see gender equity going backwards. And it's, who wants to wait 80 years? I mean, who who wants to wait 40 years? Who wants to wait 20 years? Who wants to wait 5 years? And it's it's it's the frustration that the pace of change is glacially slow sometimes. And you can only see it by looking backwards to see how far we've come. We're we're a different world than we were in 19 sixties than we were in 19 fifties than we were in the 1800. But you look forward, you think, wow, that dot on the horizon is so small. It's so far away. And we've gotta kinda keep the faith that every step forward is a step forward. And, yeah, the reflection of where we come from is is is hugely important. It keeps us keeps us motivated, baby. Well, I think that's

Alexandra Parritt: as well change the goalpost is always moving for change because the goalpost of where we wanna be and where we think we should be is always gonna change With the more individuals that speak up about their experience and their stigma and their challenges, you're like, oh, yeah, no, we should include that in the conversation Jo that the goalpost is always changing. It's always going to feel far away, but as long as you're moving towards it and not backwards, then you're succeeding. You're making an impact. And and that's what's important. Absolutely. Wow. In each shot. We could we could we could carry on we could carry

Joanne  Lockwood: on for another hour, I'm sure. So, Alexandra, tell us a bit about how people can get in touch with you because I'm it's a fascinating conversation. I'm sure people would love to catch up and find out more about your your views of the world. Yeah. Yeah. If anyone wants to listen to my views of the world,

Alexandra Parritt: I've got so many, but I also like listening as well. Yeah. So I, on LinkedIn, I'm Alexa Carter 292. I had to look up my URL earlier because I I don't often, plug that, but, I speak a lot about mental health inclusion, the the assessment world. I work for My People Group, and I'm working on trying to we're bit of a disruptor in the assessment space, but I'm trying to make us more neuro inclusive and more accessible. We've done some amazing work with some companies on doing that, and I'm often just do you know what? I'm not often behind my desk. I'm often working from my sofa. Don't tell anyone. Usually sat next to my dog working on my sofa. I just thought I'd come to my study for the podcast.

Joanne  Lockwood: Wow. Actually, honestly, I mean, I'll let you into a secret as well. Sometimes, I I deliver training in my pajamas.

Alexandra Parritt: Not that. But I'd but I put a hoodie on. Yeah. Yeah. I I I

Joanne  Lockwood: I I I I've never worn a hoodie today. I have got dressed. So and that's the that's the flexibility of of working from home. What what I wear isn't affecting my ability to deliver anything. It it just affects your ability to perceive me as someone who's who is worth listening to. So, yeah, sofa, office. It it's it's about productivity and output, not how you how how you deliver that. Still gets the

Alexandra Parritt: job done, doesn't it? Still gets the job done. So

Joanne  Lockwood: maybe we'll have another chat in the future around getting the job done no matter where you're sitting. And I'm all for

Alexandra Parritt: wearing as well. Theo Smith was talking about that not long ago. And, you know, what you wear doesn't define you. So I'm all for that. Theo, if you're listening. Yeah. As

Joanne  Lockwood: a transgender woman, I can relate to that completely. Yeah. What was deemed professional for me 10 years ago is is different today. So, yeah, it's it's completely relative to time and space. I would say it's a bit of a TARDIS thing from Doctor Who where it's all time and relative dimension in space. Our sense of self, our identity, who we are, how we perform is all is all is all a Tardis, and it's all relative. Well, there's another

Alexandra Parritt: episode for you. There is. Alexandra,

Joanne  Lockwood: thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to Jo atseachangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.