--- title: "Dressing The Part" episode: 103 date: 2024-03-21 guest: "Kay Korsh" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/103-dressing-the-part audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-103/audio.mp3 --- # Dressing The Part Joanne Lockwood is joined by stylist Kay Korsh to explore how clothing and personal presentation influence credibility, connection, and impact when you’re speaking in public. Kay shares how her career evolved from working with high-profile clients and fashion brands to building her own approach through “Mind over Fashion”, combining style with an understanding of human behaviour and first impressions. They discuss practical ways speakers can choose outfits that support their message: prioritising comfort, understanding shapes and colours, and thinking about audience expectations without losing individuality. Kay explains how she guides clients through a structured process, from reviewing what they already own to developing a look that reflects values and tone of voice. The conversation also covers common pitfalls that distract audiences, such as poor fit, creasing fabrics, avoidable wardrobe malfunctions, and the overlooked logistics of microphone packs. Alongside the practical tips, there’s a reflective thread about identity, confidence, and the time and emotional effort involved in getting dressed—especially for women—ending with how listeners can connect with Kay and learn more about her work. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Importance of attention to detail in fashion. - 04:41 — Limited perspective on world before experiencing change. - 09:08 — Shocking visit to Kiev, sadness over Ukraine. - 10:56 — Frequent sirens cause fear and sleep loss. - 16:03 — Expressing empathy for Ukraine, appreciating style and perception. - 16:39 — Building personal styling system based on intuition. - 21:15 — "Comfortable style reflects your authentic self." - 25:25 — Having my colours done was intriguing but overwhelming. - 26:57 — Transformation takes time; no quick fixes. - 29:56 — Natural-looking red hair complements warm complexion. - 34:20 — Prepare posts in advance, but I'm spontaneous. - 39:15 — Organise your wardrobe with lay flat pictures. - 41:14 — Diverse wardrobe needed for professional speaking events. - 43:30 — Men: Neat outfits, full length mirror essential. - 46:25 — Selecting mic placement for professional speakers explained. - 50:18 — Recommend going one size bigger for comfort. - 54:51 — Connect with me on LinkedIn, style community. - 56:18 — Promote podcast, seek feedback, contact for guest. ## Key takeaways - The significance of neatness and well-fitted clothing for professional speaking engagements, which can positively impact the speaker's message delivery. - Practical tips for positioning microphone radio packs, ensuring they are seamlessly integrated with the outfit for speaking engagements. - The importance of finding a unique, authentic look that aligns with the speaker's story and values for effective personal branding. - Using the process of trying on different outfits, taking pictures, and organising them to spark creativity and understand wardrobe contents. - Suggestions for creating different outfit combinations for various occasions using lay-flat pictures of wardrobe items and Canva. - Strategically choosing different outfits for stage appearances to avoid overexposure in photographs and social media posts. - The significance of having a well-fitted outfit when getting on stage and employing organisational tools for planning outfits. ## FAQs ### Why is neatness in clothing important for professional speaking engagements? Neatness in clothing is vital for professional speaking engagements as it conveys a polished and professional image. It allows the speaker's message to take centre stage without any distractions. ### What are some practical tips for positioning microphone radio packs when speaking in public? Microphone radio packs can be positioned by clipping them to belt pockets or the back of boots to ensure they are discreetly secured and do not interfere with the speaker's appearance. ### How important is personal branding in public speaking, and what does it entail? Personal branding is crucial in public speaking, encompassing shapes, colours, and audience connection. It seeks to create a unique and authentic visual representation that resonates with the speaker's story and values. ### What are some wardrobe organising techniques and tools for planning outfits for speaking engagements? Techniques include trying on different outfits in front of a full-length mirror, taking pictures of outfits and organising them, using lay-flat pictures of wardrobe items, and creating different outfit combinations for various occasions using tools like Canva. ### What are the benefits of taking time for personal transformation rather than seeking quick fixes in personal style? Personal transformation takes time and involves ongoing community support and working with professionals over a sustained period, leading to a more effective and meaningful change in personal style and representation. ### How can individuals ensure that their clothing complements their undertone and enhances their appearance? It is essential to wear colours that suit one's undertone and to explore new style possibilities to align with personal undertones, enhancing overall appearance. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-~E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 103 with the title"Dressing the Part"", and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Kay caution. Kay is a stylist for speakers, and when I asked Kay to describe her superpower, she said, knowing how to make someone shine through the way they look. Hello, Kay. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. I'm so happy Kay Korsh: to be here. It's a pleasure. Pleasure, Kay, Joanne Lockwood: you've got an interesting background. Tell me a bit about how we got here today. Tell me a bit about yourself. Shall Kay Korsh: I go all the way back? I grew up in Ukraine during Perestroika, and I've always been obsessed with style, and I'm not sure where it came from because no one in my family is into style. I was doing anything creative at all and there wasn't much fashion going on in Ukraine, but I was always thinking about it. And when I was about ten years old, my mom and I were watching tv at home and we had two tvs, black and white, one in the kitchen and the colour one in the living room. And we were watching this movie and I asked my mom, what did this woman in the red dress say? And she looked at me and was like, this is a black and white tv. And both of us ran into the living room and switched it on, and she was wearing a red dress. So I always kind of had this thing about style. And anyway, then I grew up and I moved to the UK in the early two thousand s, and I started building my career working with celebrities and high end brands. And I loved doing that. And one of the most important things I learned was paying a lot of attention to detail because those people are constantly being scrutinised by the media and they are public figures, so everybody judges them by the way they look. So it's really important to get that look right and as near to perfect as possible, isn't it? So that was really exciting and I love doing that. But also, another part of me always felt that fashion is really superficial, and I think it's my soviet background, because I didn't grow up with much, and a lot of the stuff which fashion stands for, I don't find useful and necessary, and I don't understand all the overconsumption and buying lots of stuff and producing lots of stuff. So I wanted to create something more useful. So four years ago, I started my own company called mind over fashion, and I combined style with my other passion, which is learning about human behaviour and how our minds work, because whether we want it or not, we are being judged and stereotyped by the way we look, even before we speak. So I help speakers to connect with their audience and to use their style and their look as a powerful tool to change the narrative. Joanne Lockwood: There's a lot in there. Absolutely. Wow. Do you mind if I just talk about your early part of your life? So you mentioned you grew up in the era of the Soviet Union. Yeah. So pre Berlin Wall, pre glass, it was Glasgow and perestroika, those words would be using. It was Gorbachev, we had Poland, we had the solidarity movement, we had lekvoenza, all those kind of things. You mentioned you grew up in the Soviet Union, where you'd be used to having, or you'd be used to not over consuming because of availability, because that was the environment you grew up in. Yes. Do you mind sharing a bit of how was your life back in those days? I'm sure you were happy, but it was different. Was so, you know, Kay Korsh: we always see the world when we grow up. We see the world just from that perspective. So this was the world to me. I didn't really know much about how it can be different. I remember going as an exchange student for a couple of weeks to the US when I was about 16. So now we're well into potentially just past peristroic. I was born in 1981 and I remember sitting at a maths lesson in America, and the students by the teacher were asked, you can ask these exchange students any questions you like. And the questions we got were, are there any genes in Ukraine? And is there Coca Cola in Ukraine? And it was really funny because by that stage there were genes and Coca Cola, but obviously they still probably remembered or heard what was happening before Peristoica, where there wasn't anything, which was when I was very, very young. So if we go back to more when my mom was my age, probably, but saying that for many years after that. So I moved to the UK in 2005, and when I was still living in Ukraine, to me, the way I felt it when I was on the underground and just walking around is that everything was grey. And I think for me, because I'm a very visual person and my energy feeds off looking at other people. And I get creative when I see different people of different cultures and different styles. And I didn't have any of that. It was all very bland. So when I moved to the UK, imagine this scene in the wizard ofoz where they are walking through grey and then all of a sudden everything is coloured and becomes more vibrant. So this is the way I felt when I came to London. And this is the thing which I absolutely love about London and other multicultural big cities and capitals, is that you have so much culture and so many different things to look at. And for me, as a creative person, it's really important. Joanne Lockwood: So you were in Ukraine in 1986 when reactor number four in Chernobyl broke down. And there's that huge, obviously, nuclear disaster in Chernobyl. You were in the country at that time. What was that like? Yes, I was Kay Korsh: very little. I was just under six years old. But I heard a lot from my parents when I was older talking about this. So I was born in Odessa, so we were quite far away from Chernobyl, so we weren't affected as much. Although they know that the puddles in the street were kind of. Imagine if there is oil spilled in the puddle. That's the way puddles looked. So we were affected, but not as much as a lot of other places. But I think the biggest thing and shock about this whole situation is obviously the fact that it was hidden from people for a long time by the government. But these are things which I generally don't talk about politics or things like this. I'm interested from the psychological perspective why they were done. But I'm very channelled in my interests. Yeah, of course. Joanne Lockwood: And I'm just curious about, say, you as a little girl at that time, what the impact on you was. And if you say you were in Odessa, which is Ukraine is a big country, so you can be a long way away from Chernobyl, I understand that. So I just wonder, and I think what you said there was, you weren't aware of it because of the secrecy or because of the lack of political broadcast of these things. The world knew about it, but I guess the people didn't. Yeah. Kay Korsh: And that's obviously absolutely crazy to think about it. Yeah. You say you Joanne Lockwood: moved out or emigrated in. What did you say? 2001, early? Two thousand s. Two thousand and five. Two thousand and five. So you still have family there. And I was in Kiev in 2019, and I heard the stories of the revolution in 2014 and the snipers from the rooftops who murdered, assassinated, shot people in the square, almost like randomly. And I seen the revolution Square with all of the people's faces on the boards and the memorials there. And I was absolutely stunned and tearful just being in that place and hearing the stories. And this was five years previously. And I felt a sense of real sadness and loss about that could happen in a modern society. And then we wind the clock forward and what's going on in Ukraine now, it's devastating. It's devastating. What I knew before this. You must still have people over there that you keep in touch with. It must be hugely impactful. Kay Korsh: It's incredibly sad on so many levels. I managed to get my parents to persuade, with a lot of persuasion, and managed to get them to the UK. And they were one of the first people to arrive. Although to me it felt like months and months. In reality, it was only ten days, but they really didn't want to move. They're very happy now, and they live very close to us here in London. I still have some family and friends there. And what is incredible, actually, is how when I talk to my friend, how they react to it and how humans get used to, no matter what conditions they live in. So their reality now is that pretty much every night there are still sirens going on and there is always fear that something can happen and then it can be two streets away. And they would come. Every time there is a siren, they would have to come in the middle of the night to their neighbours and sit in the porch in their neighbor's flat because they don't have a basement in their building. So they would just sit there for hours and obviously wouldn't get much sleep. And when I don't get much sleep on one night, I can't operate. So I'm not sure how they can do this, but yet there is so much kind of normality in the way they talk about this, which is absolutely crazy. Yeah. Are they still living or were Joanne Lockwood: living in the Odessa areas? Is that where your family were? Kay Korsh: My. Yes, exactly. So my friend, who I'm talking about now, who keeps me informed the most. They live in Joanne Lockwood: Odessa because we see it on the news. That's not far from Kerzon. It's on the Black Sea. It's right in the heart, really, of the front line of the problems and the war and the atrocities that occurring. That's not on the west, out of the trouble. This is right in the sort of southern eastern area. Yeah. So Odessa, compared Kay Korsh: to some of the other places wasn't affected nearly as still. So I just described to you their life. So it's definitely terrible. And a few days ago there was an explosion and a whole building was exploded and people died. But yet compared to some other places, it's safer place to be, if we can even imagine that. So Odessa is a very strategic place because it's a port and this is how they transport. So actually in the beginning of the war, we were surprised that Odessa was untouched and we don't untouched compared to other places and we don't know why. But anyway, at the moment, I don't really know when. Nobody knows when it's going to end. And there is no end. Joanne Lockwood: No, no. I think that is the sad thing. And it's a war of attrition. It's a war of wearing the ukrainian people down. I think there seems to be a belief that if Russia keep going long enough, the world will lose interest and Ukraine will run out of resources. And it's just Russia just taking the long game. They'll keep doing this for 20 years if they have to. And that's the destroying the culture, destroying the people, destroying the economy. And so sad. So sad. And also, Kay Korsh: unfortunately, as there are obviously things move on, there are different things happening in the world. Media kind of moves on from Ukraine and that's a massive part of it because that's kind of a driving force. If people are talking about something, that's what people want to help. And now, because it's not been spoken as much about, Ukraine doesn't get as much help nearly as it did in the beginning of the war. Yeah, I can completely relate to that. Joanne Lockwood: There are other things going on now, aren't there? That we've got the Middle east, we've got issues going on with our government in the UK. And the Americans bombing, was it hoofy revels? I can't remember how you pronounce it now. But there's another thing going on here. We've got UK general election, we've got the american general election coming up. There's a whole load of other world politics that are just diverting the media. And Ukraine is no longer news, is it? More people have been bombed, more people have been killed. It's the same going on. And that's the worst place to be in this stalemate situation where no one's winning either way. There's no news. There's no news in that every time that ukrainian army pushes back, that becomes news. They've got ground, they've taken another village, they've taken another town, there's something to report on. But now it's just people on the front line living in really poor, cold, wet, miserable conditions, trying to defend their country. And the thing is that going back Kay Korsh: to the brain, we can only take on as much. We only have certain amount of capacity. And that's why when people move on, because they can't take on any of that as much as they did, and they have to move on. And for people who are still in that crisis, they also need to process it. It's like the same as people in concentration camps where they had to survive, so they had to kind of find mechanisms in their brain how to do this. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm sure anyone listening to this, my heart reaches out to you and the people of Ukraine. Still, whilst you may not be in the front of my mind anymore, you're still there. And I still have that compassion and empathy. But should we go back to talking about that black and white tv with the lady in a red dress and those early kind of. Some people see patterns in clouds, some people hear music, some people have a rhythm, some have a beat. You have a perception for style and colour and dress. So tell me more about how you built that passion and built that way of thinking. So I Kay Korsh: didn't have to build it, it just was always there. But of course, as years go on, I always learn more and more and more. And the interesting thing is, when I was working behind the scenes, I did a lot on intuition and observing latest trends and latest catalogues. But the interesting thing was, when I started my own company and I had to teach people, because now I have a community for speakers and they run programmes, and they need to explain to my one to one clients as well, why I say certain things. Why do I think they need to wear this shape? Why do I think that is the particular colour which works for them? So I created the whole system around it, which I walk people through in understanding why they need to look a certain way and wear certain things. So I had to dig deep on our friend Google and search for different systems which are already out there. And then based on that, I developed my own materials. So I always walk people through five stages, and we always start with their existing stuff, and then looking at that existing stuff, we look at the shapes which work for them. So we first look at their shapes, then we move on and look at the colours. And then I always ask a lot of questions and make them think about who is their audience. Because I normally work with speakers, so it's people who are the front of their brand, right? And they have their own voice. So I always ask them who their audience is and what is their tone of voice and what their values are as a business and as a speaker. And when we go through all of these questions, we then start thinking how we can apply what already works for them, just as a person, just with their shape and their colour. And then we apply it to their audience and to their business. And the main reason why it's so important is that we are stereotyped straight away. So I teach people how to use that as a helpful tool and as a powerful tool. So it's like when you, for example, prepare a presentation or a speech, you have your slides and you think about, I'm going to use these metaphors as a tool to connect, I'm going to use the jokes, the slides. So these are all your different tools to connect to your audience and to make sure that they absorb the material you're talking about faster. So I'm teaching speakers how to use their style and their look as another additional tool to help them pick up. On what you're saying. So you're talking about the Joanne Lockwood: judgement and you talked about that's human behaviour. We have a very prehistoric view on judgement. Friend or foe, who's going to look after me? It's not going to look after me. People who look different to me, sound different to me, come from a different place, are probably going to be a threat. Therefore I don't see them as part of my team sort of thing. And we also have sort of congruence, isn't it, where, how you look, how you sound, they have to kind of align with the message. If you turn up in a scruffy t shirt with stains on it and jeans and trainers and you want to talk about business, something people aren't going to necessarily take you as seriously unless you've got that personal brand where you can get away with dressing down, because that's who you are and people kind of expect it. And when we think about some of the. Was it the founder of Apple, Steve Jobs? Yeah, Steve Jobs. He got a black t shirt. And we see other people now who are tech startup geniuses with trainers and that kind of modern grungy look, that's kind of how they're expecting. That's how tech leaders are supposed to dress now, isn't it? That's kind of like the uniform. You don't look smart. You look kind of have to, you have to work into that. You can't just put jeans and t shirt on and say, hey, I'm here now. The Mark Zuckerberg got away with it as well. Kay Korsh: Well, actually, a lot of the time I help people understand that they don't necessarily have to wear a blazer and look super sharp, because a lot of speakers think that when they go to speak at a corporate firm, for example, and everybody is dressed smartly and for an office, that they need to go there and respect them and wear similar clothes to what their audience wears. And what I always talk about is that you come there with your story and they are there to listen to your story and to listen to who you are so you can bring that into your look. So a lot of the times, actually finding that unique look, which is not necessarily very sharp and very strict, is much better. And I had this in the past with clients where they actually landed their biggest client themselves when they changed from wearing a blazer to finding that niche, what they are comfortable with and also what aligns with what they're talking about. And they always say, you start with your own comfort, what you are comfortable with, because we all have our comfort zone. It can be physical limitations or it can be just our preferences. Some people prefer to wear kind of more structured fabrics because when they put it on, they feel like, now I'm a speaker, now I'm here to speak. But other people prefer something looser and they like moving around and they like to be comfortable. So you always need to think about that comfort first, and then you move on to thinking about your audience and how you can marry it all together so that they understand you. But also you feel comfortable, because otherwise you're not going to be able to be 100% authentic when you speak to them. I completely get that. Joanne Lockwood: I think for me, it's how do I feel first? And then what looks good for where I'm going to be. I've got some dresses. I've got some outfits that I would never wear on stage, even though I love wearing them. They bring me joy casually, but I would never wear them on stage. I think the dress is a little bit too short. I need a little bit on the knee or below the knee or if I'm going to be walking around on stage. I love these shoes, but they don't work on stage. I need something I can maybe flats or certainly don't want heels if I'm going to be standing up all day. I don't want to be wearing something that is, I can't walk after about 4 hours. So you're thinking about the entire day. And I find it. There's a lot more thought goes into how I dress, how I look, how I feel as a woman than I ever had in the past where I would just tend to, pair of shoes, pair of trousers, shirt. Does it fit? Does the tie work with a jacket? Put a jacket on. That was kind of like it was off the peg. Now there's so many dynamics I have to think about as a woman that are completely different. And it's all these different combinations you have to think about, isn't it? And it's so Kay Korsh: true. It's harder for women in terms of exactly. There is more choice and it's easier to get lost. For men, the main thing is that it's cut well and it fits well, and the fabrics are good quality and things like this, even when it comes to casual. But for women, it's more about finding that style. And I think what I help with when I work with somebody is widening their horizons. Because people tend to kind of get in the rut of wearing the same thing over and over again. And because style is not something which is their specialty or something what they're interested in, they just don't have as much imagery in their head of different possibilities as I do. So when we start working together, I start telling them, okay, you can look into this and you can look into that, and you can still keep your comfort zone, but expand into different things you haven't tried before. I had my Joanne Lockwood: colours done okay, four or five years ago, and it was a fascinating day with a friend, and she was always like, napkin hankies, and put them on my shoulder and put them around my neck and see how my face changed and trying to get my skin tones. And I really enjoyed the day, but my brain didn't switch in to what she was trying to say. She has so much passion about make me look good and how I. But I just went, this sounds like too much effort. I've now got all these rules I have to follow, and my brain wasn't ready for that at the time. I suppose being a queer woman, part of that gives me empowerment to be queer, which doesn't always follow rules, has a different rule set, I guess. Not that I don't want to look good, not that I don't want to wear stuff that makes me feel comfortable and resonates with the audience, but I felt having just spent a big part of my life fitting into a rule set that I've broken out of. I didn't want to go suddenly into another rule set before I'd found myself completely. I've wore some colours and I often wear a silk scarf, which is a kind of an orangey yellow colour. And every time I wear it, people go, wow, that is your colour, that really you up? And that, I'm sure is one of the colours I was told I should encourage. So that I do know people do say things to me when I get it right, I get it. So what happened to you on that day is Kay Korsh: the reason why I structured my business the way I did. I don't believe in quick transformations. I don't think you can just click your fingers, go shopping with somebody for 2 hours and tell them a set of rules of things, and then they're going to completely agree with you and get transformed. Because we're all set in our own ways and we are used to the way we are. And it takes time for me to get to know you and for you to get to know me and for you to get to know yourself. So I always give a long time for that transformation. And that's why I have a community which is an ongoing process and goes from month to month on different topics. And that's why I work with one to one clients over three month period of time, because you need time to get there and I need time to get there as well, and to find that kind of middle ground where we agree on what works. Because you're absolutely right. If somebody just reads you a set of rules or tells you you should do this and you should do that, it is overwhelming, especially if it's not your expertise and you don't know much about it. I think part of it was I'd already Joanne Lockwood: found some colours I liked and some styles I liked. And I was almost being told that everything I kind of got comfortable with didn't work for me. And I thought, hang on a minute, I like them. There was no migration or halfway house or actually, you can still wear that blue, but if you're going to wear that blue, make sure you pair it with this. A brighter colour or something to light the face up or something like that. Or yes, wear it lower down your body, but up higher in your body where you're trying to bring your face out and illuminate. Then think about these sort of colours. And I go, okay, because I like silver based jewellery and I was told that my colour was I should be wearing more gold. I don't like wearing gold. Jewellery. I'm not going to throw all my earrings away and all my rings away and start going gold because I prefer silver. So, yeah, it's trying to find that marriage of comfort of what I want versus what looks fantastic and people resonate with. Kay Korsh: Yeah, and that takes time. Joanne Lockwood: This is a podcast, people are listening, they can't see. You've got amazing auburn hair, haven't you? I don't know how you would describe the colour, but it's a beautiful, thick, curly, reddish auburn colour. You are a minority, if you like, in society, so you must find it harder to find compliments or complementary colours for your hair and makeup and style, where your hair is not the typical, actually. So this is not my natural hair colour. I try to Kay Korsh: keep it as natural as possible, and normally people think it's natural, but my natural colour is kind of like mousy brown. But having red hair suits me. I don't like wearing much makeup, so if I do wear makeup, it's very little. As you can see today, I don't have any makeup on, but when I have my hair this colour, it's easier. Then I don't really need much because it works with my complexion and that feeds back into how important it is to wear the colours which work for you. Because I have something which is called warm undertone, so we all have either warm or cool or neutral undertone, so I have warm undertone, which means this warm red tone works for me. So I kind of made it work for me and made my job easier by doing my hair this colour. And it's not difficult because then also I wear warm tones in my clothes because these are the tones which suit me. So it kind of supports the colour of my hair, supports the colours that wear in my clothes. That's Joanne Lockwood: fascinating. So I had no idea, obviously, why should I? I think it is striking, as you say, your complexion and you dress for it. It works so well for who you are and it is you. So, yeah, I guess you are living proof of your own methodology. Thank you. Your hair and the way you dress, your complexion all align. So, yeah, it does work. I suppose that's the other thing. As a woman, I now have my hair styled, I now have my hair dyed, I have colour put in it. That's another outfit, isn't it? Your hair is another outfit? Yes, 100%. And Kay Korsh: you can think of it either as a con or as a pro, because if you think about it as a positive, you kind of can use it again to help people around you, to connect with you for men. I guess it's more limiting. And it is. I hate spending time on the way I look. If it was up to me, I would just go out in my pjs and not worry about it. Surprisingly. I know it's very surprising, but I look at these people who say, for example, if I attend a workshop or a master class by a man, and they obviously didn't have to think about their hair and their makeup, and I think to myself, I have to keep it to minimum. I have to work it out in a way that I actually spend as little amount of time as possible because I don't want to spend my time on getting ready. I want to spend it on something more useful. So I think that's, again, a big part of learning how to do this. And when I work with clients, the majority of people are frustrated with the amount of time they have to spend. This is one of their pain points. They want to minimise that process. So how do you cut off the unnecessary bites and just concentrate on making that change? So the reason I dye my hair this way is to make a visible, positive change, which will help me without actually doing much on everyday basis. Yeah, I'm one of these people that Joanne Lockwood: I often don't know what I'm going to wear until I put it on and then I go, yes, this is what I'm thinking. So maybe I have an idea in it, or maybe I'll wear that dress, or maybe I'll wear that dress, which is awkward. If I'm travelling away, I'm staying in a hotel. I need to take about four or five dresses with me because I don't know how I'm going to feel when I wake up. And if I could see the night before, I will wear that. I wake up in the morning, go, no, I don't feel that. That doesn't feel right to me today. This is the one that I want to wear today. So it's almost like it comes in that moment. There's that alignment of how I feel, what I'm doing, and I need to have that choice at that moment rather than just take one option and then I go, I wish I bought the other one now. Does it fit into that as well? Am I unique there? This feeling about what you are definitely. Not unique because I'm Kay Korsh: myself the same. And okay, with clothes, it doesn't work. Exactly. It's not as hard for me because I obviously think about it all the time and stuff like this, but it reminded me of my way of social media and how people always teach us how we need to batch create and we need to prepare our posts on Monday for the whole week. And I can never do this. I'm a very spontaneous person. I prefer to do this on the day and do as I wish and have this creativity spark where all of a sudden I write this amazing post or what I think sounds amazing, right? But in terms of the clothes, what I normally suggest, and it does take time. So you kind of have to decide to spend time on it, is to try everything on what you have and take pictures of yourself, just selfies in the mirror so that, you know, this is the way it looks on you and there won't be any surprises. And also this is the time where you can just play around and try it with different footwear, different layering. So this process is really helpful to spark that creativity in you and actually to understand what is also worth keeping and what is worth giving away. Because you need that space in your wardrobe, because that will create space in your head as well. So it will be less overwhelming when you open the wardrobe if you have less stuff in it and don't need the stuff which actually works. So I really highly recommend to either do it by yourself, put some music on and just spend a couple of hours going through everything and taking pictures, or do it with your family member or a friend because that exercise really opens your eyes on things. Why are you laughing? Sorry, I'm not sticking Joanne Lockwood: away. I could just see my wife indulging me for a day when I twelve lots of outfits and she takes photographs. I think I might be able to get her to take one or two, but I'm not sure I could get her to do a photo shoot for her. She's not into clothes. Who knows what she is? I just think she might find that a little bit overindulging for me. But no, I could do selfies. And I often use Facebook and post things on Facebook and I find myself using this time last year, this time two years ago, this time three years ago. And I look at those sometimes those time hop type posts and think, oh, I love that dress. I wonder where that dress is. What have I done with that outfit? All those shoes. I like those shoes. So sometimes I remind myself of what was in my head three or four years ago and I go, yeah, I've evolved away from that, but that was great. I love that. I go back to the wardrobe and I go, where is that? Oh yeah, bring it out and start wearing it again. The danger of that is I end up wearing the same outfit on the same day each year because it pops up from last year to go, I like that. And I've done that before. I've looked back and gone last year, the year before, the year before that, I'm wearing the same outfit because it's reminded me of the outfit. And I go, oh, I really want to wear that again. What you can Kay Korsh: do, even before you do the exercise, which I told you about, is go through those pictures and save them on your phone in a folder, so you have an album on your phone. And then when you think about you're going to go to a conference or something where you need four or five outfits, you will have that folder to spark your memory and creativity. And that will be a good start because you will look at it and you will remember, this is what it looks. This is good for the panel, or this is good for standing up or different occasions. Yeah, some of these are just me going to Sainsbury's, me going for Joanne Lockwood: a coffee. So this is kind of casual stuff as well. So it's just t shirts or a dress or, I don't know, pair of trains or something. But yeah, it's interesting. And I also noticed, because I'm a stage speaker, I stand up in front of people. And inevitably, when you're on stage, people take photographs, or you ask people to take photographs, you've got video, you got footage. So I'm really conscious about making sure I'm wearing something different often, because otherwise, every stock photograph you ever have of you, every social media post, you're wearing the same thing, even though I like it. So I am really hyper focused on making sure I have a change of outfits. And I will think, what did I wear this week? What did I wear last week? What sort of event is it? Am I going to get photographed? Am I going to get videoed? What do I want out of this from a marketing perspective? So that's another dimension, isn't it, to what we talk about, how we plan? Is this outfit overexposed already? Kay Korsh: So another way to be organised, and that's for people out there who like being organised. Another thing which I recommend is to take lay flat pictures of what you own. So, for example, if it's a dress, it might be just a standalone outfit, just a dress. But obviously you need to think about the shoes as well. Or it could be trousers, plus top and blazer or whatever it is. And what I recommend is to take pictures of every single item you have in your wardrobe and then you can use either canva to remove the background. And a lot of people who have their own businesses, they use canva to create graphics for social media. So it's likely that you know what I'm talking about and you can remove the background of all of those things and then you can have different pages in the document on canva of different occasions. So you could, for example, create a page about workshops you run or about big speeches in front of 2000 people or 5000 people. So kind of create different outfits for different occasions and then it will be very visual. And the reason why it's better in that case to take lay flat images rather than selfies is that you can then drag the same top with, say, for example, you have the same pair of trousers and five different tops. So you can create five outfits like that. So this is another way where you can then again, if you are organised and it helps you, you can then sit down and think, okay, I have a conference to go to next week and they need five different outfits. And then you can look through those outfits and decide on which day what you are going to wear, depending on what you are doing at the conference on that day. I started Joanne Lockwood: doing that and I think it's part of my evolution as a speaker and as a woman to recognise that you can't wear the same thing twice. You have to accessorise, you have to have mix and match, turn one outfit into three outfits by just swapping one part of it, sort of thing. So yeah, it is. And when we go to using the professional speaking association conference as an example, that's kind of a four day event. By the time you've got the pre, so you've got a couple of dinners, you've got a posh night, you've got some stage time, you've also got some casual nights, you've got some meet and greet stuff. So yeah, there's a whole load of different scenarios you're dressing for, whereas being on stage is just maybe one of those scenarios. The rest of it is the networking, the mixing, socialising and all the other stuff. So being an audience member, so you got to try and think about all those different dynamics again, we talked about the beginning, about being comfortable and relaxed, thinking about the temperature, the air conditioning, the amount of time on your feet, going to the toilet. You think, I can't take all this off every five minutes if I'm wearing a nice jumpsuit. I've got to think about all those kind of things as well, isn't it? So there's a huge amount of stuff going on here, let alone has it look, has it fit? What's the colour and what does it say about me? It's a minefield. Wow. I'm just being blown away here. Yes. I Kay Korsh: think the one where you actually get on stage is the most important, because you are kind of centre of attention. You need to make sure that there are not many unnecessary creases and the outfit fits well. But with the rest of it, it can be more casual or more playful, depending on what you're doing. So, yeah, I think that organisational tools which I described, definitely, I see a lot of success with people who are using that and that they find it helpful. So let me just flip over Joanne Lockwood: to the other side. So you see a lot of success. Where does it go badly wrong? What are typical mistakes people might make? Maybe talk about people who, maybe men, maybe women. What are the mistakes that people often make? So, for Kay Korsh: men, as I mentioned before, it's really important to get it neat. It has to be neat. And exactly as I mentioned just now, the way I describe, what does it mean that something fits you? Well? It means that there are as little unnecessary lines when you look at yourself as possible. So it's very important that if you are going on stage, whenever you are preparing your outfit to go on stage, you need to try this outfit in front of a full length mirror. And if you haven't got a full length mirror and you're a public professional speaker, you have to get one, because you need to see, head to toe, what you're wearing. So making sure there are no stains, making sure that nothing can be undone by accident. So I have this example I quite often show at my workshops of a woman wearing a blouse with a string which got undone. So what I always talk about is make sure that what you're wearing can't, by accident, get undone and go wrong. So maybe it's better to avoid something with the string which might get undone. And it's not to say that you have to wear something super minimalist, because for some people, they like expressing themselves through clothes and you can play around so much. There are loads of different ways to play around with your outfit, but just making sure that it can't go wrong by accident or you missed something. Like, for example, another time, what happened is somebody shared this with me where the speaker was on stage and they had the prop in their pocket, so they took the prop out of the pocket and then the lining of the pocket came out and then everything. What people were looking at was that pocket lining. They weren't listening to him. Anymore. Right. So it's these things which matter even before I start talking about the shapes and the colours which work for you is try the outfit before, make sure there are no stains, that it's ironed. Also, you kind of need to go for fabrics which don't crease as much. And I learned this as I start speaking more in front of the audiences, that I need to think a lot about it. And there are brands out there which specifically are designed fantastically well, which use fabrics which don't crease as much. So I would always recommend to go for those, because it's just straight away when your look is untidy, unexpectedly untidy. Especially around the kind of hips and waist Joanne Lockwood: where you sort of stretch when you sit down, you end up with those horizontal lines exactly around your middle if you're not careful, don't you? Kay Korsh: Exactly. Yeah. I think we're both at the same Joanne Lockwood: meeting on Saturday, the professional speaker association meeting in London. And one thing that sparked from a conversation as a result of that was microphone radio packs that we speakers. You put your lav mic on, you have a mic pack somewhere, and you've got to think about where you're going to hang it as a man. You can put it in your pocket, maybe clip it to your belt. And I noticed one of the speakers on Saturday had it clipped in the top of her knee length boots, which I always find is a great place to clip it in the back of your boots. It's always a sound place to put your mic back, but, yeah, sometimes it's clipped to your back of your bra, your shapewear or your back of your dress, under your hair, at the back of your neck. But, yeah, you got to think about that as well, because the weight of that also pulled down. So if you've kind of got it in your suit pocket or a breast pocket, it will create that imbalance as well, won't it? Yeah. So you just mentioned Kay Korsh: loads of ways where to do it. So you mentioned boots, bra strap, belt pocket. One other thing, which I heard from another speaker, which I thought was fantastic, is that they cut off the PJs, belt line, so the elastic of an old pjs, which they wear under the dress, and they put the transmitter in there, hook it in there, and then that's another place where you can put it if you don't have a belt or any other places to do it. So I think that's definitely 100% a very important point as well, to think about when you prepare your outfit. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And when you're starting on speaking circuit, you don't always think about it. The person comes up to you say, where am I going to clip this? I was lucky. I took part in a tv documentary about six, seven years ago and we did it for about three years. And I was always having a mic pack put on me in various different casual outfits. I'm quite used to someone lifting my dress up, pulling my top up, just letting someone put it on me. But as a speaker, you got to get prepared to have the Av tech just putting a bites on you and disrupting you. So if you've got everything really together, you're in a little room and someone's going to be wiring you up, you got to think about how you're going to handle that. Yeah, it definitely all comes with experience. Kay Korsh: And you can have a checklist of things, what you need to do in order to prepare. I think I saw a post of yours on LinkedIn the other week Joanne Lockwood: around trouser length on men, making sure that it doesn't bunch up on the top of your shoe. Because that, again, can look scruffy or you haven't taken the time to have your trousers taken up a couple of inches. Yes. And it applies to women as well. Kay Korsh: And the majority of the time, you have to do something about the stuff which you buy, because if you're buying it off a shelf in a store, they are making it, obviously, for mass production. So it doesn't matter if it's a high end brand or high street brand, it's very likely that you are going to do some adjustments to this. And the length of the trousers is a very common one, which you need to do something about. And it's just knowing how crucially important it is, because it can literally rack up the whole look, if you will look frumpy and untidy if the trousers are too long. My pet hate on people. We talk about judgement. Joanne Lockwood: When I judge people, it's generally around the front of someone's shirt or top, where the buttons are under tension. There's too much belly or too much boob, if you like, creating that gape. And that's my pet hate is a shirt that's too tight or a blouse that's too tight. Yes. So I always recommend Kay Korsh: to go one size bigger than one size smaller. And we don't want to let go of that size, don't we? We don't want to go one size up. Because it's like, if I admit to myself that I am one size bigger than I was, it's the end of the world. In reality, it's actually, you're going to look bigger if the item is too tight on you. So I always recommend to go one size bigger and sometimes we are between sizes, in which case we need to take it to the tailors or a seamstress to adjust with men's shirts. I do recommend to wear a vest under a shirt to avoid that situation, apart from the fact that it might. So just first make sure that it's not too tight and it doesn't gape. And then wearing a vest also helps, just in case. And sometimes some shirts are a little bit too transparent. And for women, actually, a lot of the time, you might want to try different types of blouses which don't even have those buttons. That might be helpful. If somebody has a big bust, it's quite often a problem that it's going to gap, even if it's the correct size. Or if you found a blouse which is your classic blouse with buttons and you do want to wear it. And there are also ways which measures you can take to avoid this problem. One of the things you can do is put tiny little poppers between the buttons so that there is more support in the middle where the buttons are. You could even, depending on the structure of the bites, sometimes you get things which have buttons in the back and buttons at the front, for example, and the front ones are just for show or something, so you can even stitch it together. So it depends on the actual item and you kind of need to look at it one by one. But I really highly recommend to have your trusted seamstress or a tailor which you can take the bites to after you bought it, if you think that something is wrong and then ask them for their opinion, what you think can be done to fix that. I think we were saying Joanne Lockwood: earlier is use that full length mirror and also recognise, no matter how much you like that outfit or that top or how much it resonates and makes you feel good, you have to be honest and look in the mirror and say, actually, this doesn't work today, I'll wear it a different day, or maybe not in this scenario, or just start choosing outfits with more lycra in them so there's more give. That's my friend, making sure that the outfit itself has a bit of give. Talking Kay Korsh: about stretchy fabrics, I think stretchy can be good, but it's also really important that it does hold shape. So I never recommend kind of thin jersey or thin knitwear, because it just shows everything and that's not what you want as a speaker. Right. You don't want people to see your underwear lines under the clothes. And again, it distracts from the message. So even if your general look is more relaxed, and I always encourage that if that's where you want to go, you can find things which are made out of substantial fabric which keep that shape and just look more premium, and you will look more respected to the audience. Or just wear really reinforced shapewear underneath Joanne Lockwood: and create that smooth line. Yes, but it's Kay Korsh: also not for everybody. Some people find it really uncomfortable. And again, if somebody doesn't want to do that, I don't encourage that. That's very personal. And again, there are lots of different shapes you can find to find that middle ground where you are comfortable. And also you look presentable. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. No, I completely agree. That's great advice, Kay. It's been fascinating. We've been chatting now for over an hour, right, from talking about your childhood in the soviet era, Ukraine and Odessa through to some of the conflict today, and then your passion for style and helping people look fantastic, how can people get hold of you? They want to find more about your services or just say hi on some of that. How do people get hold of you? I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn, and it's very Kay Korsh: easy to find me. You just put in my name, Kay Korsh, and you will find me. And please connect and ask me any questions. And I am working with men and women, and I am also growing a community of like minded women speakers where I support them and they can talk to each other and ask questions as well about style. And we all go through the style journey together. And this is something which I'm really passionate about at the moment. So if you want to hear more news about it, find me on LinkedIn and let's chat. Awesome. And just so people know Joanne Lockwood: it, K-A-Y Kosh K-O-R-S-H. And I'll put all the details in the show notes as well, how to get hold of you. Kay, fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I really, really appreciate you having Kay Korsh: me. Here, and maybe one day I'll ask you and be brave enough to find Joanne Lockwood: out if I'm getting it right or getting it wrong. But let's save that conversation for another day. But thank you. And also, thank you to you, the listeners, for tuning in, for listening to the end. I really value your support on this channel, on this podcast. Please do subscribe follow like to keep in touch with future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S bites. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues. And if you feel minded, why not leave a review or share this on LinkedIn or some other platform? Because other people would love to hear this. And remember. Also, if you'd like to be a guest, then please let me know. And I also welcome comments, feedbacks, and suggestions to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk how can we improve? So finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.