---
title: "Understanding the conflict between Culture vs Humanity"
episode: 10
date: 2020-07-23
guest: "Hend Halim"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/10-understanding-the-conflict-between-culture-vs-humanity
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-010/audio.mp3
---

# Understanding the conflict between Culture vs Humanity

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Hend Halim, an HR professional who grew up in Egypt and has lived in Holland and the UK, to explore the tension between cultural norms and shared humanity. Hend reflects on how early cultural messaging shaped her understanding of LGBTQ+ people, and how education and direct relationships challenged stereotypes. She describes learning to separate morality and character from sexuality or gender identity, and why exposure and dialogue are essential for changing deeply held assumptions. The conversation also looks at how law, privilege, and workplace culture affect people’s safety and inclusion, including examples of how LGBTQ+ people can face very different outcomes depending on social status. Hend discusses being an ally in practice, the realities of discrimination in supposedly tolerant environments, and simple ideas organisations can use to help employees connect across difference. They also touch on wider societal context, including Black Lives Matter and colonial history, and how current events such as COVID-19 may shift working practices and expectations in ways that could improve flexibility and inclusion.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Challenge stereotypes, promote equal opportunities, share experiences.
- 06:18 — Realized LGBTQ classmates are good, successful people.
- 09:03 — LGBT discrimination in UK and Middle East.
- 12:15 — Faith shapes beliefs; adapt old texts modernly.
- 14:55 — Adapting to UK life with diverse background.
- 19:29 — Discrimination hinders LGBT individuals in many countries.
- 21:41 — Work experience reveals disconnection between perception, reality.
- 24:52 — Diverse speed dating challenges stereotypes in company.
- 30:58 — LinkedIn more active, tough times ahead. Businesses refocusing.
- 33:35 — Understanding white privilege, history, and cultural impact.
- 36:03 — Questioning colonial viewpoint, seeking authentic cultural understanding.
- 40:25 — Sharing knowledge, inspiring others to educate.
- 41:58 — Employers embracing flexibility, promoting work-life balance.
- 46:49 — Connect, message, chat. Speaker opportunity. Job wish.

## Key takeaways

- Implementing a "speed dating" approach to break workplace stereotypes and enhance diversity.
- Addressing backhanded compliments related to religion and ethnicity and their impact.
- The significance of advocating for underrepresented voices in diversity and inclusion roles.
- Challenges and adjustments in remote working and job applications amidst COVID-19.
- Understanding the intersectionality of discrimination, including gender, faith, and motherhood.
- Examining traditional gender roles in Egyptian and Muslim societies and their evolution.
- The necessity of modern interpretations of religious texts to promote inclusivity.

## FAQs

### What is the "speed dating" approach for diversity in the workplace?

The "speed dating" approach suggested by Hend Halim involves brief, structured interactions between diverse individuals in the workplace. This method aims to break down stereotypes and encourage open-mindedness by facilitating genuine, rapid exchanges that highlight personal experiences and diverse perspectives.

### How are backhanded compliments based on religion and ethnicity addressed in this episode?

Joanne Lockwood and Hend Halim discuss how backhanded compliments often stem from ignorance and unconscious bias. They emphasise the importance of educating others about cultural sensitivities and guiding them towards more respectful and inclusive communication.

### How did COVID-19 influence Hend Halim's perspective on her career and personal life?

COVID-19 prompted Hend Halim to reassess her life priorities and future plans. She reflected on her career in diversity and inclusion, the impact of remote working, and the unique challenges faced by HR professionals during the pandemic. This introspection helped her to focus on advocating for underrepresented voices and ensuring a balanced life for her family in the UK.

### How does the episode address the representation of different ethnicities in social movements like Black Lives Matter?

Hend Halim discusses the importance of raising awareness and advocating for ethnic representation in social movements. She highlights the need for inclusive platforms that amplify the voices of underrepresented communities and promote solidarity across different causes.

### What insights does Hend Halim provide about gender roles in Egyptian and Muslim society?

Hend Halim shares her experiences with traditional gender roles prevalent in Egyptian and Muslim societies. She emphasises the ongoing struggles for gender equality and women's rights, and speaks about the support from her partner in balancing domestic and professional responsibilities.

### What challenges does Hend Halim mention about living in different countries while maintaining her Egyptian heritage?

Hend Halim highlights the difficulty of preserving her cultural heritage while adapting to different societal norms in countries like the UK and Holland. She underscores the importance of educating others about her background and advocating for cultural respect and legal protections.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you would like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and of course, all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode ten with the title Understanding the conflict between culture versus humanity, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Hend Halim. I met Hend at several CIPD events and true events in London over the past year or so, and Hend describes herself as an HR professional who is passionate about giving underrepresented people a voice. So I asked Hen to describe her superpower and she said being cheerful and diligent. So hello Hend. Welcome to the show. Hi Jo. It's a pleasure to be with you

Hend Halim: and all the guests. Ah, thank you. So tell

Joanne Lockwood: me, why is it important to understand this conflict between culture and humanity?

Hend Halim: It starts with liberating yourself out of everything you grew up learning by interacting with people and finding the truth yourself. Because I personally grew up in Egypt, I lived in Holland and I lived in the UK. I have three life experiences, so I'm going to share more details during this podcast about it. For me, as a cis straight Muslim, it's a fight against discrimination and promoting equal opportunities to create a space for everyone to be treated with respect and to not feel different. Because people usually have stereotypes, they have certain ideas. If they don't deal with the person directly, they will keep having them until maybe they die. So I used to come to London as a kid with my parents every summer holiday since I was ten. I would see people who look completely different from what I used to see back in Egypt, because we don't have much diversity in Egypt. We don't have other nationalities until the Arab Spring started and then we started to have some Syrians or Iraqis and so on. So the first ever challenge between culture and humanity was at the age of 17. I studied a Canadian degree and we had a professor who taught us human rights. It was a core module and we had a project about LGBT and Islam. At first we were all shocked and because it's something hush hush, nobody speaks about. It's frowned upon, it's not accepted, and so on. But she insisted that this is the topic we are going to do our graduation project about. So it was a big eye opener to all of us growing up knowing that those people are wrong or not doing something right or going against nature. Again, Egypt is 80% Muslims and 20% Christians, and both of them again under the Middle Eastern culture. So everyone is homophobic by nature. So we did a lot of research. We were completely surprised that there is a huge community of Muslims in Canada who are LGBTQ. They are welcome. They have their own mosques. You cannot lose your faith and stop being a Muslim if you're an LGBTQ person. So that was something against everything we grew up learning, that if you do that, you lose your faith, you will not be accepted, and so on. So that was the first ever eye opening experience. And now attending webinars or events where people speak about they are in the learning phase, getting to know the problems of the black people, ethnic minorities, Muslims, or whatsoever. So I can relate to that because I used to have an opponing point of view against a group I never dealt with or know anything about. But it just built in through culture that they are not good for no reason. So a few years later, I moved to London to do my master's degree. That was the first ever direct contact with gay people. I had some at my class. One was open about his sexuality, the other one was keeping it a secret. I only knew that with my classmates during the pride when she was part of it. So that took me some time to think that they are not different. They are really good people, very nice to us. They have good manners, they are successful, smart. They wouldn't go to postgraduate school if they are. So that showed me the reality that sometimes someone who is LGBTQ, according to culture and religion, who's not good enough or on the right path, can be better than someone who's born and raised Muslim, but who would be a thief or a murderer or whatsoever. So what you do in the bedroom has nothing to do with how good you are. And from then, I started loving them, accepting them, giving them all the respect they deserve, because I saw and I've dealt with someone for a whole year, and I loved her so much, and I had no idea about her sexuality. So it taught me a very good lesson that what you built in or get planted in the culture is not always right. It's because you never dealt with them. So you have those wrong stereotypes even though in the Egyptian media it's really visible, and they feature themes about trans people and gender, cross dressing and everything. So it was accepted in the media, but not in reality. The latest survey was launched in Egypt in 2017. The result showed that 95% of people agreed that human sexuality should not be accepted. So that's a very large number.

Joanne Lockwood: From my perspective. So I'm obviously a person born who lived in England all of my life, almost all my life. So I would see the Middle east as a very unfriendly place for LGBT people. We hear of imprisonment, beatings, lashes and even death for people who've been found guilty of being gay or lesbian or trans. I find that personally really tricky to kind of understand because. And I also see that with maybe some cultures within the UK, so we look at some fundamental Christians, there's some Muslim communities, there are people who are still anti gay, anti trans, anti LGBT, who live in this country. And I think recently there was an incident where there were some schools in Birmingham that were trying to ban the education of their children around LGBT people. But the culture, I suppose, where Islam is sort of rooted in the Middle east is very strong anti LGBT. But there's nothing, from what I understand, nothing in the religion or the faith that says LGBT is bad, is it? It's not an Islamic doctrine. It's an interpretation by the people in power. That's the problem.

Hend Halim: An Arabic word can have up to 18 meaning. So it depends on the scholar to choose and manipulate whatever he wants to deliver. That's why when the ISIS movements and so on were going on, they started targeting non Arabic speaking Muslim because they are easier to manipulate. They don't understand Arabic. They will believe whatever you tell them. They wouldn't target someone like me because I know Arabic, I can read. And the problem again is the script was released over 1400 years ago, so we need scholars to introduce new updates like the iPhone. We keep getting updates because there's a new software. So what was understandable or accepted 1400 years ago should match the current and new situation and give a space to everyone. Because in Islam, we start like every prayer that God is the most merciful and compassionate. I don't think God creates faulty, so you can't really dismiss a certain group. When God created them, he wouldn't create something and ask us to hate them. That's a very valid

Joanne Lockwood: point. I think that's so true, where if you have a faith and a belief that you have a God that you believe in and is part of your faith, then you generally don't believe that. That God is imperfect. You believe that God has perfection. And why bring hate into the world? We're talking about culture versus humanity here, and it's become a cultural thing, as you say, 1400 years of evolution of scripture and text without being upgraded to iOS or Quran version six to meet the context. So people are interpreting the way that people existed and gathered 1400 years ago about the way people work, computers, online, internet, relationships, clothing, different countries. The culture has changed completely underlying that text. And you're right, we need to reinterpret it with a modern lens, maybe, yeah.

Hend Halim: Because sometimes you get attacked from my friends and stuff that I promote and support the LGBTQ and so on. So I keep telling them, defending black people will not make me black. Defending disabled people will not make me disabled. So defending LGBTQ will not make me one as well. It's just a matter of respect and accepting understanding, because I'm different at workplace. I look different, I sound different. So I know how much courage for someone from the LGBTQ or any other diversity focuses. Come to work, take the courage to get dressed and meet people who are mostly homogeneous and don't accept you. So they should be greeted with so much respect and love for trying to show who they really are. So you said

Joanne Lockwood: yourself you emigrated or you came to this country. How many years ago was that now? Several years. I've done my

Hend Halim: master's in 2014, went back to Egypt for a year, got married and moved to Holland for two years and now four years in the UK. So you've been in the UK four years

Joanne Lockwood: as a person that you would be labelled as know in the broad sense of it. So your ethnic minority, you also have a faith, which is Muslim with an Islamic background, you speak Arabic, you spent most of your life in a culture in Egypt, but you've also had exposure to a more northern European, Western type upbringing. Canada, Holland, UK. So how have you found it to adjust to the lifestyle in the UK versus maybe the lifestyle in Egypt? What sort of big things you notice different?

Hend Halim: The difference is there is a room for everyone to be quirky and different, but it comes with a huge responsibility to educate others. And the involvement of the law is protecting all those groups. While in Egypt or the rest of the Middle east, the law enforces harming anyone who is against the norm. The majority, yeah, the typical. You have to conform to whatever. It's a preset catalogue all of us should go through, from baby to death. So you must have had to learn

Joanne Lockwood: English. Did you learn that while you were in Egypt or at school. You did learn at school, and that's part of the education to learn Western languages. Do you learn much about Western cultures? So the environment in Egypt is one of cross culturalizing you from an early age, so you understand about the world, but very restricted about the sort of things you can learn within that culture.

Hend Halim: Exactly. And it's mainly depending on privilege. It depends on the social class you belong to. Everything can make your life easier if you belong to a certain lifestyle. And I would like to mention an example of two LGBTQ Egyptian Muslims who have totally different stories when they started to face the society. We have someone called Noor Hashem. She was born a girl. She made gender reassignment because she's a daughter of a famous actor in Egypt. She only had minor attacks in the media. She was not arrested. She was not deported, nothing at all. And we have a different example of a girl named Sara Hege. She only raised the rainbow flag during a concert. She was prisoned, molested, electrocuted, and then she was bailed out. She was asked to be deported to Canada. Last year, she lost her mom, and she was unable to attend her funeral or say goodbye or anything. Last month, she committed suicide in Canada because she was under severe depression and PTSD and so on. So privilege plays a huge part of protecting you from the law.

Joanne Lockwood: I visited Egypt back in 2000. So I went to the pyramids at Giza, saw the Sphinx. I visited the Cairo Museum. I saw the Titan Car Moon exhibition, the Cairo Museum. And I only stayed probably 14 hours. It was a stopover on a cruise. So that was my experience of Egypt. I kind of resigned myself to the fact that it's not a place I could probably visit again and feel safe or be certain that I would be safe. And it's quite sad, really, that there are countries in the world where someone like myself, who's LGBT, who's trans, would face discrimination just being yourself. I even have to think about how, when I fly to Australia, can I stop off in Dubai? I probably can't. There's a whole lot of countries. But should I go to Russia and Moscow? So I'm now thinking about the countries where it's safe for me to. So I guess I have a privilege of living in the UK that I can be myself, but there are many people in other countries who can't, and they're living in a regime where they feel they have to hide or mask or cover themselves for fear of death or punishment. And that must be a terrible way to live. It is. And

Hend Halim: unfortunately, I had a culture shock in Holland when I lived there for two years, because most of the people from different age group, old ones or young ones, were cracking jokes against homosexual or trans people and they don't accept him. So I was shocked. Like, this is Europe. I thought you would have the same tolerance I would see in the US or the UK. It was one of the most culturally shocking for me because I thought that they would have that. So it's by law they cannot do anything. But because some people know that I'm Muslim, they feel comfortable to show their homophobic or transphobic nature and think that I will not be offended because I share the same.

Joanne Lockwood: Mean. You said you were shocked about hearing people in the UK or in the US or wherever, you were freely expressing negative views of people. So did you believe from an Egyptian point of view that the UK or the west was kind of free and easy and everyone was accepted? Or did you get a bit of a shock when you realised that? My

Hend Halim: work experience showed me that it's not the reality. As I told you, I feel like people just feel tied by the law. They have to say that we accept them and so on, but realistically speaking, they are not. Some refuse to wear the rainbow lanyard when we give them away at work. We have really close family friends who are atheist, and they come home, they play with my son and so on. So I was just complimenting them and saying, okay, one day your daughter will give you one or two of them because you will make fantastic grandparents. So the mother looked at me with so much sadness and she said, well, that's not possible because my daughter is gay. And then there was awkward silence. I didn't know what to say. So my husband jumped in and said, well, they can adopt. So I mean that even here there's still people who are against it. At workplace, we had a trans person, and when I wanted to invite her for, like, we usually go for lunch or dinner and so on, some people said that they don't want her with us, they don't feel comfortable around her. And I was really heartbroken because those people are born and raised here. I thought they will have more acceptance than someone who was born and raised, that those people are wrong.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's still the reality. And as a trans person myself, I'm aware that there are some people who embrace me and some people who reject me and some people who don't understand me or don't want to understand me. And I guess you must also face that as a non British person from birth, people maybe you must also suffer some sort of puzzlement or discrimination because of your accent, because of your faith, and because of your gender, because you're a woman as well. So intersectional or even a mother. A mother as well, yeah, because I. Was once stopped from a

Hend Halim: promotion until I finished my mom years, my early mom years. So it.

Joanne Lockwood: So we're going back to the sort of culture versus humanity thing. So this is the culture we have in the UK as well, in the workplace. And you're in HR. I'm in diversity and inclusion, promoting wellbeing for people. How do you see we can tackle this culture problem we've got in organisations? What you would advise people?

Hend Halim: I would encourage doing something like speed dating, where you put people like us who are different, who are Bame, who are LGBTQ, and then invite people in the company to sit, like, for ten minutes or something. Maybe you will like me. Maybe you will eliminate a wrong stereotype that you thought about people. I usually get funny comments like, oh, you're Muslim. I didn't know that. You don't look like them or you don't act like them. So sometimes I feel like they are aliens. They are special species, but no, some of us are funny, cool and just like you.

Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned that. I've had people say, well, I'm okay for a good. I'm a good trans person. I'm an okay trans person. And maybe you almost. People say to you, you're a good Muslim, you're a funny Muslim, you're an okay Muslim. And it's a compliment, but it's insulting, isn't it? Exactly.

Hend Halim: Backhanded. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: because I'm well behaved and make you laugh. I'm acceptable. Is that what you mean? And this is British privilege, sort of speaking again sometimes, isn't it? People think they're being kind, but actually they're being really cruel by saying that, aren't they? Yeah.

Hend Halim: We're going out for after work drinks. I don't drink, but I don't mind sitting with people who drink. I don't mind gifting my friends with champagne or anything, whatever they like, because I can't force my belief on people. If you want real integrity, there should be a space for acceptance, tolerance, and just live and let live. For sure.

Joanne Lockwood: I noticed, reading some of the bio you sent me in advance, you're saying you're doing a lot of public speaking now, so you've spoken at a few events. So what got you into that? What inspired you to want to speak eventually? It's Bill Borman.

Hend Halim: Because while doing my studies. He believed in me. I met him at Talent Leaders Connect, where he did a fantastic speech and I did my dissertation about recruitment. So I approached him and then he invited me to true London and then other events like Enterprise Ireland, until I became one of the speakers, not just an attendee.

Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. So what do you like to speak about? Is it about culture, about HR or talent or. What's your passion when you speak?

Hend Halim: I mainly speak about diversity and inclusion. I shared some stuff about faith at workplace, about the challenges of minority group employment, how we all get rejected just because of our name before even reading our resume. You don't know anything about me, but I'm immediately rejected. I don't go through the funnel.

Joanne Lockwood: No. We spill over the edge, don't we? Somehow we get swept up afterwards and people, we never hit the radar. It's a shame. Yeah. We're now in this world where we're living in COVID 2020. We all had these big plans for the year. What are you learning about? Maybe your own work or your own passions? Are you reevaluating your life because of COVID Because of the future?

Hend Halim: Yeah, definitely. It's a huge momentum, like reflecting of all previous years my current situation and what I want to do in the future. So it's really good. Do you see the UK as being

Joanne Lockwood: part of your future? Or are you thinking the world and thinking, where else could you sit down, roots and maybe try a different culture? I'm not really

Hend Halim: sure. My husband loves travelling and living in different countries, but I want a bit of stability, especially that we have a little one. So I want him to join school to have some friends, to have a bit of stability. Yes,

Joanne Lockwood: I agree. That's very important in their younger years, isn't it? In lockdown. Are you having to home educate or is he too young? No, he's just two. Just two. Okay, so I'm

Hend Halim: lucky with just cartoons. And feeding

Joanne Lockwood: and balancing that with working as well. So remote working.

Hend Halim: Yeah. Well, thanks to Corona, I left my previous role and I was supposed to start another one end of March, but it was terminated due to Corona. Okay, so I'm now in the job application phase, reviewing and so.

Joanne Lockwood: Guess, I suppose that's a challenge. Mean, in the HRTA space, there's a lot of people being laid off at the moment or furloughed, not being brought back. So it's a tough market for HR, D I and L D professionals at the moment, isn't it?

Hend Halim: Yeah, it is. Optimistic. Yeah, I think we should now. It's a lot better than the few months back. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I certainly see a lot more activity on LinkedIn, a lot more people speaking positively. I still think we've got some tough times to come. When the furlough scheme ends in October, I think we'll see a lot more casualties, but I see businesses going back to business and focusing on plans and futures now, which they probably weren't doing two or three months ago. Yeah, I'm getting invites for

Hend Halim: events end of September, early October. So it's getting better. So you're still staying in

Joanne Lockwood: HR. You describe yourself as kind of an HR generalist. Is that still your passion, is it? Yeah, it is. And are you looking to sort of increase your speaking? You want a role where you can speak more and get involved with the event still? Yeah, I'm currently

Hend Halim: focusing on diversity inclusion roles, where I can advocate the underrepresented voices, like, I love to give them a space, promote women in leadership roles, give diverse people, black ethnic minorities, some space in the top senior level, because if you start at the top, then the people at the bottom will be happy and satisfied. Do you feel that

Joanne Lockwood: you as yourself are represented by Black Lives Matter, as Black Lives Matter really is focusing on black people, you would maybe class yourself, maybe as brown or not black. So do you feel that you're being represented in that movement and you're getting a spotlight shown on your own ethnicity eventually? No,

Hend Halim: not direct, but if it works for one of the underrepresented groups, then all of us will be one day will have our turn, because now it's the South Asian month. So there is a highlight on that. And then in October, there's Black History Month, which I'm expecting to be a very special month, especially this year with the George Floyd death and all the revolution and all the protests globally. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I think you're right. I think one of the things that the conversations I've had with people around BLM, Black Lives Matter, is that as a white person, I don't understand often what it's like to be white. I need to understand my privilege and understand what white privilege means, and also I need to understand about the history of how the UK is built on colonialism, on the money generated through the slave trade, and I need to do some more research on that. So I think we actually need a white History month as well, to say how white people have evolved and where our cultures come from, and to really unpack that, because it's not just about understanding black culture so much, understanding how white culture impacted black culture as a white person, and maybe look at the statues, rather than just tear the statues down, look at each one and understand the history of that person or what the circumstances were, so that we can now put this. We talked about the 1400 years of evolution since the Quran and was written, et cetera. We now need to look at the last four or 500 years since British culture was established and the lens through how that evolved and how it was built on the blood and sweat and tears of other cultures. And I think that's the important thing. We need museums of whiteness so that we can go and look at our past through the truthful lens, rather than seeing us as the victorious conquerors who are the champions all the time. And I actually reflected on this because I went to see the Egyptian pop up Carmun exhibition that was in the Versace Gallery in London. And I didn't really think of much of it until the Black Lives Matter movement started and highlighted to me that I now see that through a different lens. The British people were the colonists of that region. They were invading these burial grounds. They were digging stuff up, really just trying to pillage those artefacts and conquering that sort of side and stealing these things, taking them back to the UK for our pleasure, destroying the culture of the Egyptian culture effectively. And I started seeing that maybe this Tuden Carmen exhibition was actually a celebration of colonialism rather than a celebration of Egyptian history. True. And I started looking at things now through a different lens, thinking, I actually want to understand Egyptian culture, but I don't want to understand it through a white lens. I want to understand through the Egyptian lens. I need EgyptIan people telling me this story, not a white lord with loads of money who's enslaving people effectively to dig this thing. So I see some of these historic things I've grown up with in school through a different lens now. And I'm now starting to question how I've been brought up and how I've been taught about the British Empire. And when people talk about dismantling the British Empire, I'm now thinking, that's a good thing, we should learn about what it did and what it did to people. But I don't feel proud of it in the same way that maybe I did when I was younger.

Hend Halim: I get your point. And I think

Joanne Lockwood: hanging on to the Commonwealth again, that's British territories, which are. We describe them as British dependencies. Why are they dependent on us? Why aren't we putting effort and time into making them less dependent on us and making them free nations and not hanging on to this colonialism of the past and propagating effectively racism, or racism by permission. I think we all need to take a long, hard look at the way we're taught history, the way we see ourselves. And people say that history is written by the victors. You never hear the losers perspectives. Yes, and we need to blend both perspectives because we're all freedom fighters. It's just the winners are freedom fighters, the losers are terrorists, and that's the struggle we've got to face. So you still go back to Egypt? Do you still go home? Such eventually.

Hend Halim: We were supposed to go in April for my sister in law wedding. Unfortunately, we couldn't go because of Corona lockdown, so we missed it.

Joanne Lockwood: How is it in Egypt? We don't hear much about the relaxed. My parents at the beach

Hend Halim: and everyone is enjoying their life. They've

Joanne Lockwood: just not had many incidents or they have or they managed it. Is it just a different culture? Is it?

Hend Halim: Well, I don't think the media is giving so much transparency about it.

Joanne Lockwood: Right. So they leave people to go with the

Hend Halim: immune. What

Joanne Lockwood: it's called herd immunity. Yes. So they

Hend Halim: are adopting this style because they don't want to stop the economy from going on. So they didn't have lockdown for several months, like here. No.

Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so you said at the beginning your superpower is being cheerful and diligent. How does that superpower manifest itself? I can see you now on camera, though. The listeners can hear us. What keeps the smile on your face? What's that? Passion?

Hend Halim: It's positivity. Also making my family proud. My parents are proud of me. I always share the events or the things I participate, so it makes them very proud of me. My son, my husband, representing Egyptians abroad, just like Mosala. He's the Egyptian king of Liverpool. We have Rami Malik, who won the Oscars for resembling Freddie Mercury. So it's something like that that keeps you.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I hate this word, role model. But being a great Egyptian and being a fantastic Egyptian in the UK, being yourself and smiling about that. Yeah,

Hend Halim: brilliant. Just to be proud of yourself. Yeah. Someone who making contributions to society or even educating people, because your words and the events I attend for you, they educate me. Something about trans people. They make me reflect when I go home about the ideas you share, the emotions, everything you say. And then I start educating other people. I attended an event with Joe. She said, so and so. What do you think about that? So you start engaging with others, spreading the word, spreading your positive ideas. Thank

Joanne Lockwood: you. I think that's a really great outlook on life. To educate, to learn, to share that and be really positive. That's a really good mantra, because there's. No silver bullet

Hend Halim: to make everyone accept diversity and inclusion, love everyone and live peacefully. No.

Joanne Lockwood: If you had a magic wand or you had some vision, where do you see the world going? We're in the middle of July now. We've probably got another year, or at least 18 months worth of COVID related lockdown measures adjustment. So where do you see the future? Do you see humanity getting better? Do we think we'll be able to learn something from this? Yeah, a lot.

Hend Halim: I see more flexibility with employers because some Stone Age one were against people working from home or flexibility. Now that they are forced to do that, they found that you can be productive. You can trust your employees to deliver whatever is required from them. If they are working from home, they don't need to be chained to the desk to give that. I see some companies are promoting the four days week which can give more work life balance to do whatever you like, do your hobies, stay with your family, travel and so on. I see a better environment, there is less pollution, nobody's travelling, no carbon print. People are more conscious and appreciating of everything we used to have and we got deprived of. So there is more appreciation to everything. Do you think as a working mum,

Joanne Lockwood: it will be easier for you or harder for you? Because everyone thinks it's easier. But there are other challenges of working at home or remotely and having a young family, aren't there? Yeah, definitely. It's

Hend Halim: very hard. But again, if you have support from your partner, it can make life easier because we cover each other.

Joanne Lockwood: So a more even balance between the gender roles at home helps everybody win. Yeah,

Hend Halim: well, my husband has been living in Europe for like 15 years, so he's not very Egyptian.

Joanne Lockwood: Meaning traditional gender roles in Egyptian society. Yeah, I understand that. The Woman's role in Egyptian society or in Muslim society is very traditional, isn't it? Very at home, cooking, cleaning, childcare. The male role is more working, providing, fighting, the strong outbound role, whereas the female tends to the weaker home based role, isn't it? Yeah. Although isn't Muslim society often very matriarchal, where the woman does wield some authority in the home, or is it very patriarchal still?

Hend Halim: No, it's more equal, but it's not for the public. The man has to be like the final decision maker. It's the woman who decides and designs and sets everything, but just for the image. It's not like Saudi, where

Joanne Lockwood: as a woman, you didn't need permission from a man to travel or leave the country. No, not at all. And even driving, because my friends

Hend Halim: would always ask me, can you drive? So I said I had the car since I was 16.

Joanne Lockwood: In fact, probably earlier than the UK it is, and.

Hend Halim: Even in Egypt, because it's legally at the age of 18. But again, as I told you, speaking of privilege, sometimes you can do stuff and get away with it. I'm not so proud to say that, but that's the reality. So we got your naughty secret out in the end.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you. You've got some great life stories and you've overcome some challenges in your life. You're living in several countries, living in a country that's completely different, yet still being firmly proud of your Egyptian heritage is absolutely incredible. It's part of my identity.

Hend Halim: It's me. It is. And I think we talked about culture

Joanne Lockwood: versus humanity, and the humanity in you is shining through and your hopes for the future evolving. The culture is. I think we can all aspire to that as well. So how do people get in touch with you if they want to book you to speak? I'm sure people want to find out more about you. So what's the best place to get in contact? My Linkedin. It's Hend

Hend Halim: Halim, and I'm happy to receive any messages. Okay, so connect with you on there, drop

Joanne Lockwood: you a message and have a chat. And if someone's looking for speaker on anything you've heard about today, you'd be really pleased to take part, wouldn't you? I can tell that, definitely. So I wish you well in your job hunt. Maybe someone who listens to this may listen to this and want to offer you an opportunity coming from India, which will be amazing. But I'm sure we'll keep in touch, and I'm sure once the lockdown is over, we'll bump into each other at a CIPD or another event. It'd be great to have a hug. I miss hugging. Yeah, me

Hend Halim: too.

Joanne Lockwood: So thank you so much. So if anybody would like to take part in this podcast, then please do get in contact. It's jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And it's a huge thank you to everyone for being a listener to tuning in, and please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bytes podcast at Bites. Please tell your friends, please tell your colleagues, because I've got a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months in addition to today's. So please get in contact. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to.